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2021/05/31 16:39:31
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
I wouldn't worry too much about any army that doesn't have a codex. Each new book has been pretty dang good. I am sure Tyranids players will be happy.(or at least as happy as the average dakka patron gets)
2021/05/31 16:45:00
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Tyran wrote: Orks are not getting cheaper, not with T5 upgrade.
Why not? Immortals have T5 and are brought down to being only 4 points more than Warriors in the new points update.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/31 16:48:18
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2021/05/31 16:49:25
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Tyran wrote: Orks are not getting cheaper, not with T5 upgrade.
Why not? Immortals have T5 and are brought down to being only 4 points more than Warriors in the new points update.
Both stayed the same, Immortals are simply no longer overcharged for the tesla gun (which got nerfed while blasters got better).
And the point difference between the two necron units is kind of the point
Ork boyz are getting -1 AP in melee, and +1 T. GW could easily decide that both of those are worth a point over the current 8 point T4 boy. (And beast snaggas +1 point each for the strength and special rule). 10 point orks and 12 point beastsnaggas would be pretty bad, even with the improvements, but I can easily see GW getting there just using the simple logic of 'better has to cost more' and applying it in a vacuum. Consider how many iterations it took for them to get Primaris to the point they were even usable, let alone good, and that was with the 'marine bias.'
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/31 18:06:08
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/05/31 18:30:20
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2021/05/31 18:50:34
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Tyran wrote: Orks are not getting cheaper, not with T5 upgrade.
Why not? Immortals have T5 and are brought down to being only 4 points more than Warriors in the new points update.
Both stayed the same, Immortals are simply no longer overcharged for the tesla gun (which got nerfed while blasters got better).
And the point difference between the two necron units is kind of the point Ork boyz are getting -1 AP in melee, and +1 T. GW could easily decide that both of those are worth a point over the current 8 point T4 boy. (And beast snaggas +1 point each for the strength and special rule). 10 point orks and 12 point beastsnaggas would be pretty bad, even with the improvements, but I can easily see GW getting there just using the simple logic of 'better has to cost more' and applying it in a vacuum. Consider how many iterations it took for them to get Primaris to the point they were even usable, let alone good, and that was with the 'marine bias.'
To be fair, boyz aren't really worth their point unless right now unless you buff them with a stratagem (that is likely to disappear) and a 300 point character. 8 point boyz most likely were a measure to get the green tide out of tournaments, not because boyz are actually worth 8 points.
With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/31 18:51:07
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/05/31 19:00:13
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Jidmah wrote: With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
Before 9th I would have said they're fine at 8. Now with everyone getting layered it only makes sense for them to stay the same cost and get buffed. Trukk Boyz become more interesting, too.
2021/05/31 19:00:47
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Currently most played: Silent Death, Mars Code Aurora, Battletech, Warcrow and Infinity.
2021/05/31 19:10:54
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Gimgamgoo wrote: The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Except that ALL ork boyz seem to now have T5, including the generic "Ork Boyz" that form the backbone of most ork armies. This seems like it will also include burna boyz, Stormboyz, Kommandos, etc etc.
The only thing making Snagga Boyz slightly better is the 6+ invulnerable save, Str5, and their +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters(these bonuses will also make them cost more per model).
Let's stop trying to make this into a "Evil Geedubs is forcing people to buy the new minis!" thing.
2021/05/31 22:36:53
Subject: Re:40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
To be fair, boyz aren't really worth their point unless right now unless you buff them with a stratagem (that is likely to disappear) and a 300 point character.
8 point boyz most likely were a measure to get the green tide out of tournaments, not because boyz are actually worth 8 points.
With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
Oh I agree. I just don't have faith that GW's assessment will be that they're not currently worth 8. Just that they currently are 8, and are getting buffs, so by GW logic, they need to cost more.
If GW understood they weren't worth 8, they would have gone down in February's point update.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/05/31 23:50:12
Subject: Re:40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Given that GW increased the defense of Necrons and Drukhari without increasing their points, I'd say you are being overly pessimistic.
I must say giving Orks T5 and Grots T3 will help them grow into their current points value. The question is will they do anything to make Shoota Boyz better so that they are not worse than Slugga Boyz with the new improved Choppa?
2021/06/01 01:07:18
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Gimgamgoo wrote: The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Ah, yes, just like how primaris were so badly costed in the first three years of 8th (Reivers and primaris tanks being bad still to this day) the squats were far more efficient even with worse statline? And when GW finally managed to make primaris okay idiotic W2 buff that broke the game made them look bad again? Because if that is supposed to be example of evul GW sales plan, it's kinda gakky one
JoeRugby wrote: Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
The was feels fluffier for me
So, 200 points of SM can barely kill 35 pts of orks even with 2 layers of buffs applied? Yup, sure sounds "fluffy" and "balanced"
2021/06/01 02:02:11
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Voss wrote: The +1 to hit seems odd to me. I was expecting the snaggas to get +1 to wound against big stuff, it seems far more thematic and useful.
+1 to wound on 20 boyz with 60 attacks sounds a bit too powerful to me.
Yeh. +1 to wound is generally more powerful ability than +1 to wound(full reroll to wounds is in similar way bigger than full reroll to hits). +1 to wound would be sick powerful ability. And would make balancing points nightmare. Super good ability vs vehicles/monsters so need to pay points but if you don't face...you are back to W1 no save guys...
Better less extreme rule, especially conditional ones, tyvm.
Which funny enough makes them tougher vs bolters than orks, tougher vs autocannons.
And of course they are still without codex. At least last time I checked tyranids haven't yet got 9e codex. It's pointless to compare 9e codexes to 8e codexes since GW decided to up the power scale to 11th with new codexes. Just be happy your book is later. Power creep ensures tyranids will stomp orks when they come up.
I think T5 for Orks make a lot of sense actually.
A FnP roll for a horde army would be very cumbersome to deal with - it would be a lot of extra dice rolls every turn, just fishing for sixes.
It also makes Orks behave differently on the tabletop - relying on toughness and weight of numbers, instead of fancy armor saves or multiple wounds with FnP.
The irony is, the Ork is tougher than the average piece of armour he wears! It's a surprisingly good fix and I like the possible design space for duability.
Space marines - Good armour and 2 wounds
DG - T5, armour and wounds
Custodes - SUPER armour and wounds but eye watering price (and invun!)
Ork - Good T
Necron - Decent armour, good T and stand back up again!
I would like my tyranids to have their durability design space around higher wound counts, and maybe lean more into a regeneration factor.
2021/06/01 07:52:25
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
The irony is, the Ork is tougher than the average piece of armour he wears! It's a surprisingly good fix and I like the possible design space for duability.
Space marines - Good armour and 2 wounds
DG - T5, armour and wounds
Custodes - SUPER armour and wounds but eye watering price (and invun!)
Ork - Good T
Necron - Decent armour, good T and stand back up again!
I would like my tyranids to have their durability design space around higher wound counts, and maybe lean more into a regeneration factor.
*imagines a world of T2 W5 ‘gaunts* “gotta blow off all the limbs, see…”
That’s hilarious.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
2021/06/01 07:54:51
Subject: 40K Beast Snaggas - new info on pp7. T5 Boyz.
Gimgamgoo wrote: The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Ah, yes, just like how primaris were so badly costed in the first three years of 8th (Reivers and primaris tanks being bad still to this day) the squats were far more efficient even with worse statline? And when GW finally managed to make primaris okay idiotic W2 buff that broke the game made them look bad again? Because if that is supposed to be example of evul GW sales plan, it's kinda gakky one
JoeRugby wrote: Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
The was feels fluffier for me
So, 200 points of SM can barely kill 35 pts of orks even with 2 layers of buffs applied? Yup, sure sounds "fluffy" and "balanced"
It's pointless to compare 9e codexes to 8e codexes since GW decided to up the power scale to 11th with new codexes.
This is a poor game design.
Ok, then go and lets tell Craftworlds, Daemons, Tyranids, GSC, Tau, IK, Chaos IK, Chaos SM, Guard...players that they should stop playing or at least stop their desires to win, because it does not make sense to play until you get your new codex. That is insane.
I have Space Marines and Tyranids. For the Space Marines I already feel quite bad with this HUGE power creep, but man, the armies without codexes like Tyranids...what a bad spot. I've read some post this morning that defines my current feeling:
"I have worries that if they get too aggressive with it(the power creep), we will see veteran players who had re-entered the hobby in 8th grow weary and leave again, concluding that GW are up to the same old tricks."
This is probabbly the feeling my current gaming scene(competitive gaming wise). People that got back in 8th are loosing the interest in the game, because every new codex breaks the game and the meta. It does not matter what you prepare/learn, the next codex will invalidate your previous trainning. This situation is exhausting for players.
Also, people that are ok with T5 Orks priced 8-10 ppm (2A WS 3+, with the AP -1 choppa) are not seeing the big picture. The current 9th armies (not talking about the poor 8th codexes) are not prepared to deal with 120 Boys with T5, they will just take the table, play the mission and then by the time you can play and do something, is turn 4, you lost the game.
This whole post looks like a cry , but this is worrysome for the status of the game.
I'm only still in 40k for Crusade but stuff like this really does dampen my already limited enthusiasm. My suspension of disbelief is already stretched to the limit when S5/T5 unarmored ork infantry walk up to my S4/T4 Tyranid Warriors.
That they still only have 1 wound only makes it worse. It has never been that orks are hugely difficult to damage in the fluff, it is that they can suffer so much of it before they actually go down with missing flesh/limbs/organs not stopping them. That is obviously a high wounds count, toughness doesn't make sense. That in turn makes it apparent that orks were given T5 instead of W2 because they didn't want them to be similar to marines. Except with BS5+ and armor 6+ they were never going to be in the first place.
It isn't a good change mechanically or thematically. It just makes the game less fun for me.
Da Blitza Boyz! (Orks) 70% painted.
, but this is worrysome for the status of the game.