AllSeeingSkink wrote: Some previous shots of the Snagga Boyz suggested no interchangeability, because there were 100% identical models shown in the preview shots. But maybe for some whacky reason they are interchangeable and some whacko at the GW studio decided to build them 100% identical anyway.
This shot...
They're not 100% identical - note the guy in the top-left with the choppa, and his identically-posed friend near the centre-middle. One of them has a two-handed gun and, as mentioned, the other has a choppa. Not to mention the Nob.
This suggests a very, very small amount of customizability.
Yes, the special weapon guy and the boss have weapon swaps available, and the boss has a few extra gubbins. But their bodies are still monopose and everyone else is identical.
Being space savage orks I wouldn't expect as many weapon options for basic boyz as the other klans. Choppas, sluggas, and a nob with melee options is sufficient.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Some previous shots of the Snagga Boyz suggested no interchangeability, because there were 100% identical models shown in the preview shots. But maybe for some whacky reason they are interchangeable and some whacko at the GW studio decided to build them 100% identical anyway.
This shot...
They're not 100% identical - note the guy in the top-left with the choppa, and his identically-posed friend near the centre-middle. One of them has a two-handed gun and, as mentioned, the other has a choppa. Not to mention the Nob.
This suggests a very, very small amount of customizability.
I did actually notice the dude with what looks like a shotgun.
There are 20 models total, 8 models that are perfectly duplicated (16 of the 20), then the Shoota dude and his doppleganger in the top left (interestingly even though it's a variant, they still used the same head, so no head interchangeability? Then I think the guy 2nd from the left in the top row is what the Nob looks like if you don't build him as a Nob.
But still, if there's any meaningful ability to swap bits and pieces between the models, it would be really odd for them to make so many clones for a display picture.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blastaar wrote: Being space savage orks I wouldn't expect as many weapon options for basic boyz as the other klans. Choppas, sluggas, and a nob with melee options is sufficient.
It's not so much a question of weapon options as just being able to build them in a way that they aren't clones. If there was interchangeability in parts between the models then instead of having 20 models that have obvious clones, you could maybe maybe 30 or 40 before you start noticing the clones, at which point the clones get far enough apart in the regiment for it not to be a problem.
With how the poses are it should be very easy to swap hands and heads though, given you have a hobby knife. I did it with poxwalkers, shouldn't be harder here. If the size difference is small enough you might easily throw in Boyz Bits.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: With how the poses are it should be very easy to swap hands and heads though, given you have a hobby knife. I did it with poxwalkers, shouldn't be harder here. If the size difference is small enough you might easily throw in Boyz Bits.
At this point we don't really know. If the designers sculpted the head into part of the torso detail or something silly like that it may not be easy to swap heads.
Or maybe the heads are fully interchangeable and whoever built that set is just a crazy weirdo who likes clones.
I do actually wonder whether the Krieg heads are interchangable, given they have the air tube thingo.
I thought the Ork starter box figures were limited option like the Sisters starter with a full kit of Beast Snagga boys to come later. Did I imagine that?
catbarf wrote: That's... How Krieg have always been, though. Legs, body, and head as one piece, with only the arms separate.
But if they'd been in plastic in the days before the great shift to GW's current design ethos, they would not have been so static.
Ah, yes, good old days of totally not static plastic kits
Spoiler:
Perfect Organism wrote: Although the skitarii legs are separate, they aren't poseable. Each torso has a specific set of legs which only fits it and (in almost every case) gives absolutely no freedom of movement.
You're trying to inject facts into cherrypicked ideology. When I pointed out even his favourite straw subject, Space Marines, doesn't work that way (as demonstrated by BA/DA/SW Termies, which, while ""multipose"" will only go one legs with one torso one way only without heavy cutting and puttying while looking far worse than Primaris bodies because bits not quite line up) all I heard was crickets and example shifting. I have no idea why he has that belt fixation, slight rotation absolutely does not make ""multipose"" body look any different so you might as well make it look good instead.
Question of taste obviousely. Personally I find body rotation makes for a lot of different poses actually and find GW's fixed bodys very repetitive. In my opinion GWs sets today are nice to complement older multipose models but whole armies of these new kits have quite obvious clones if you don't use your hobby knife properly.
Lord Damocles wrote: They're not space savage orks though - Beastsnaggas are 'regular' orks who wrangle lots of squigs; not wildboys or feral orks.
I admit I still don't quite get the point of these Beast Snaggas. Are they meant to be (sort of) the new take on the Snakebites?
They seem to be for Snakebites what Speed Freaks are for Evil Sunz. Signature units if you like. Nobody is stopping you from building your Snakebite Boyz/ feral Orks from Savage Orks still .
Lord Damocles wrote: They're not space savage orks though - Beastsnaggas are 'regular' orks who wrangle lots of squigs; not wildboys or feral orks.
I admit I still don't quite get the point of these Beast Snaggas. Are they meant to be (sort of) the new take on the Snakebites?
Nope. They're a subfaction, not a clan. GW decided they wanted to show off more of the squig side of ork kultur, and decided monster hunters were a usable take on things.
That said, they're probably more common among Snakebites, same way Speed Freaks are more common among Evil Sunz, or Lootas among Death Skulls or Kommandos among Blood Axes and (once upon a time) Stormboyz among Goffs.
Even further back, the clans had various specialties and had more oddboyz than other clans. Snakebites dealt more with grots (and squigs) so had more runtherdz, Evil Suns had more Mekboys, Bad Moons had more weirdboys (and their teef grew faster, so they had more upgrades).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ork Boy sprue, and the Snaggas are definitely going to be interesting to contrast and compare with the Kommandos.
Are we seeing GW move wholesale back to more interchangeable kits, or is it currently to give flexibility to Kill Team specific kits?
Some previous shots of the Snagga Boyz suggested no interchangeability, because there were 100% identical models shown in the preview shots. But maybe for some whacky reason they are interchangeable and some whacko at the GW studio decided to build them 100% identical anyway.
This shot...
Spoiler:
It took me so long to actually find the duplicates I'm not entirely concerned with their being duplicates, tbh. All it takes is a paint job to hide them unless you scrutinize for differences.
catbarf wrote: That's... How Krieg have always been, though. Legs, body, and head as one piece, with only the arms separate.
But if they'd been in plastic in the days before the great shift to GW's current design ethos, they would not have been so static.
Ah, yes, good old days of totally not static plastic kits
[spoiler]
Perfect Organism wrote: Although the skitarii legs are separate, they aren't poseable. Each torso has a specific set of legs which only fits it and (in almost every case) gives absolutely no freedom of movement.
You're trying to inject facts into cherrypicked ideology. When I pointed out even his favourite straw subject, Space Marines, doesn't work that way (as demonstrated by BA/DA/SW Termies, which, while ""multipose"" will only go one legs with one torso one way only without heavy cutting and puttying while looking far worse than Primaris bodies because bits not quite line up) all I heard was crickets and example shifting. I have no idea why he has that belt fixation, slight rotation absolutely does not make ""multipose"" body look any different so you might as well make it look good instead.
You're ignoring an entire era of multipart plastics that started appearing after those very basic plastics.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: With how the poses are it should be very easy to swap hands and heads though, given you have a hobby knife. I did it with poxwalkers, shouldn't be harder here. If the size difference is small enough you might easily throw in Boyz Bits.
At this point we don't really know. If the designers sculpted the head into part of the torso detail or something silly like that it may not be easy to swap heads.
Or maybe the heads are fully interchangeable and whoever built that set is just a crazy weirdo who likes clones.
I do actually wonder whether the Krieg heads are interchangable, given they have the air tube thingo.
No need to wonder. They showed on the reveal video the heads are separate. They explained the models have arm, weapon and head options.
Anon052 wrote: So there won't be a separate codex to preorder next saturday. You only get a limited edition Codex if you preorder the Beastsnagga box.
:-( sucks for those orkplayers who don't want those Beastsnaggas..
The LE codex also drives up the price of the box.
I'm guessing it'll be priced similarly to the Lumineth box. The only 'discount' was if you wanted the limited edition codex, but otherwise it worked out pretty much the same price as buying the kits individually + the normal codex.
Im the first to call out GW horrible kits but the krieg one looks like to be one of the BEST kits GW has made recently. 10 completely unique great coat models with ton of weapons options and even KT customization that also works for 40k.
Looking at the sprue shots the look really promising. I doubt theres a better way ,GW could have done in plástic.
Well I don't think its going to take long for rest of the orks to catch up. They got deffkoptas for delivery!
But weird thing is... now that I know that we are getting brand new ork boyz and deffkoptas I don't think I need any Beast Snaggas. They just overlap so much.
Galas wrote: Im the first to call out GW horrible kits but the krieg one looks like to be one of the BEST kits GW has made recently. 10 completely unique great coat models with ton of weapons options and even KT customization that also works for 40k.
Looking at the sprue shots the look really promising. I doubt theres a better way ,GW could have done in plástic.
Anon052 wrote: So there won't be a separate codex to preorder next saturday. You only get a limited edition Codex if you preorder the Beastsnagga box.
:-( sucks for those orkplayers who don't want those Beastsnaggas..
GW basically have said as much since they first announced the Beast Snaggas box. I think the regular codex will probably be out a month or two after the Beast Snaggas box.
Anon052 wrote: So there won't be a separate codex to preorder next saturday. You only get a limited edition Codex if you preorder the Beastsnagga box.
:-( sucks for those orkplayers who don't want those Beastsnaggas..
GW basically have said as much since they first announced the Beast Snaggas box. I think the regular codex will probably be out a month or two after the Beast Snaggas box.
We have the Stormcast Eternals and Orruk Warclans battletomes on pre-order in August and a Chaos battletome in October, plus Kill Team somewhere in the mix. That tightens up the available release slots in the near future.
GaroRobe wrote: Whatever happened to the rest of the Sisters? Plus the GK vs TS box?
I can understand the GK vs TS box, the content weren't even revealed, much less anything more about it. But the Sisters are still missing parts of their second wave of their stuff, like the Predator or the Nundam Prime, or the lady that looks like she's orgasming while holding a banner, that we uh, logically, should've gotten with the rest of the stuff that was revealed alongside them - but the relase date wasn't even announced yet.
Also you can just filter Armies of the Imperium → Adepta Sororitas → HQ and she’s right there.
What’s missing is the new tank, and Aestred Thurga, and maybe a set with the Blackstone fortress preacher and fanatic since the default load outs for the non-Adepta Sororitas priests match theirs now.
Anon052 wrote: So there won't be a separate codex to preorder next saturday. You only get a limited edition Codex if you preorder the Beastsnagga box.
:-( sucks for those orkplayers who don't want those Beastsnaggas..
The LE codex also drives up the price of the box.
I'm guessing it'll be priced similarly to the Lumineth box. The only 'discount' was if you wanted the limited edition codex, but otherwise it worked out pretty much the same price as buying the kits individually + the normal codex.
Nah it was less than 160e which is what contents costed without factoring in cards, markers, dice and measurement tool.
Irbis wrote: Ah, yes, good old days of totally not static plastic kits
You don't really ever think before you post, do you? GW's plastic technology has moved on a lot since then. A hell of a lot. We've had several generations of plastic kits since those days in the early 90's. Those are GW's first mass produced plastics (outside of the 80's Rogue Trader things), made to bulk out the basic units in every army. How do you not know that? Or were you so desperate for (yet another completely wrong) 'gotcha' against me that you forgot to engage your brain? Honestly...
Goose LeChance wrote: You're ignoring an entire era of multipart plastics that started appearing after those very basic plastics.
Of course he is, but the only reason he's posting is to try and have a 'gotcha' moment against me. They always fail, because he's always wrong.
GaroRobe wrote: I wonder how much I'll have to pay to get the big squig by himself? He has so much potential
Oh yeah, it's going to be a bit smaller. And as someone who isn't big on the kruleboyz (especially the lanky grots), I'd try to go for something gloomspite gitz or ironjawz.
It helps that it doesn't look like it has mechanical limbs, like literally every squighog.
I believe the Wurrtower or whatever is a nod to ye olde days of Epic and the Weirdboy Tower, which were manned by Weirdboyz to amplify their psychic power.
I was hoping for a Squiggoth myself. Maybe next time. The sqig and the cart have potential. I don't like the white and red. I started working on a feral army about six months ago off an old chapter approved list. For the color scheme I went with orange as my main and dark brown for the accent. It works with the grays and other browns I'm using.
Pointer5 wrote: I was hoping for a Squiggoth myself. Maybe next time. The sqig and the cart have potential. I don't like the white and red. I started working on a feral army about six months ago off an old chapter approved list. For the color scheme I went with orange as my main and dark brown for the accent. It works with the grays and other browns I'm using.
Kromlech does a great "Gnawzilla" that to all intents and purposes is basically the small Squiggoth. Would fit in really well with an ork army. I'll be getting a few at some point and using them as trukks counts-as.
buttersxxx wrote: Looks like the box is super limited, multiple stores in Australia raffling the box for charity since they are only getting 1 per store.
Yeah I just saw that on Emerald Hobbies' page and Wargamer Hub's page.
I wonder if these are COVID era leftovers that they never managed to make a lot of copies of. Either way it sucks that there are so few copies to go around.
sounds like As/NZ have been hit with a shipping issue and rather than delay the world wide release GW is air freighting a few boxes in to do their one per store (since it only seems them who have been warned)…. after all with limited stock how could they magic up a whole new allocation without messing with supply elsewhere
hopefully sea freight stuff will show up soon with more boxes (after all the prices charged down below as crazy, and must make GW more profit by far than a box sold in Europe or the North America
oke eveyone does have a differt taste, and i like the "normal" look of the new orks but those beastsnaggas and there new vehicle i dont like, and i play orks
its more like lets make some AOS models and give them some guns and be done with it. the new commandos are great.
AUD$290 for 25 Orks, a book that will be partially invalidated in 6 months (perhaps even less if they do another points revision), and cards that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
The book is just the 9th ed codex, I'd expect it to have points and rules for all the unreleased models much like the Sisters book did, but of course if it doesn't that's a different scenario.
Same as all of these boxes, it's a great deal if you want all of those things and a bad deal if you don't.
Jidmah wrote: So, at what time do pre-orders usually become available? Asking for a friend...
Pre-orders nominally go up at 10am BST / 11am CEST, though apparently it's not a bad idea to start F5ing a few minutes earlier since things don't always go up exactly on the hour.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
*Flashbacks to buying the Dwarf Limited Edition Rulebook, then the Warhammer World went kaboom*
I haven't bothered to check, but I think the LE Sister Codex that came in the battlebox was also pretty useless. Not sure if they had every model, since the full range wasn't revealed at that time.
My usual online store (UK) has said they are not getting enough copies to cover those who have expressed an interest and won’t have any left over for the online store.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
I understand your point and disagree with it. Neither codices nor the PA books have become invalid by any measure and have been a valuable asset when gaming all through their lifespan. Printed points might as well not exist at all, and what errata and FAQs do in the overwhelming majority of cases is to clarify or fix rules that are already in the book. Which means that more often than not, the FAQ or errata doesn't change how you play anyways. The only thing that got truly invalidated were the datacards, because having cards for half your stratagems is about as valuable as having none at all.
And this isn't a limited edition codex where you can just buy the regular one. It's buy this limited edition codex, or you don't get a codex, which is a completely different level of bad.
I also happen to like all models in the box except for the crazy hair runtherd, so might as well get them now before GW charges an extra 30 euros for the same box without a codex inside.
I'm just gonna wait til the Squig Riders come out. I've been waiting for years for that concept to see the light of day, and although the execution could be better I'm happy enough with it to add it to my army to honour my old Boar Boyz.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
*Flashbacks to buying the Dwarf Limited Edition Rulebook, then the Warhammer World went kaboom*
I haven't bothered to check, but I think the LE Sister Codex that came in the battlebox was also pretty useless. Not sure if they had every model, since the full range wasn't revealed at that time.
I mean...they've released a new book since then so... It did have all the models scheduled for release at that time and I love it on my bookshelf.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
*Flashbacks to buying the Dwarf Limited Edition Rulebook, then the Warhammer World went kaboom*
I haven't bothered to check, but I think the LE Sister Codex that came in the battlebox was also pretty useless. Not sure if they had every model, since the full range wasn't revealed at that time.
The LESoB codex was the same one as the release one just with a different cover. Used it quite extensively until the 9th edition codex came out.
I think the only weird LE codex/tome out of the early release box sets was the Lumineth Realmlords as barely a year later they released a new tome for LRL that included the latter half of the army. That was all within AoS 2.0 btw whereas the SoB codexes were 8th and 9th edition.
I believe Codexes are worth it the first time you buy one for your army. To get a general feel of it, the fluff, etc... but buying the same codex each 2-3 years? Nah man.
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
Fyi the box contents will cost less than separately. There's your premium
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
I disagree that the books are useless during their edition run as they are good reference materials for the included rules(unless you are one of those people who rely on Battlescribe to be entirely correct). I do however agree that the limited edition codexes are a bit of a waste of money as they are exceedingly costly compared to the time you get to use them. If you are a mega fan of your faction then they are a nice collection piece, but otherwise entirely superfluous.
However, I did some math on the Ork box contents and the contents exceed the cost of the box.
20 orks - my guess is that the Ork boyz box will go to 30 pounds so this part of the box will be 60 pounds. GW is on a price hike as of late so I wouldn't be surprised if it went higher(maybe 32.5 pounds). The biggest surprise was if they were less than 30.
Zodgrodd - 25 pounds my guess. We are now at 85 pounds
Squighog boyz - 35 pounds or so. Could be 30 pounds. so we are now at 115 pounds
Nob on Smasha Squig - I am guessing 30 pounds so we are at 145
Codex - 30 pounds(Let us aim for the standard codex price so we won't artificially raise the box contents). 175 pounds
Datacards - 15 pounds, same rule as with the codex. 190 pounds
So all in all for those who want a codex and datacards early as well as the models it is a decent discount. So a box designed for Orks boyz, galz, and enbyz.
Galas wrote: I believe Codexes are worth it the first time you buy one for your army. To get a general feel of it, the fluff, etc... but buying the same codex each 2-3 years? Nah man.
9th edition codices aren't exactly full of fluff though...
Value wise it feels about the same as the Sisters box to me.
The Sisters box has no options for any models and a couple of MSU units for things that don't line up well with buying a box of them. This box looks like it will be the full kits of the model contained, and works much better as a start for an army I think.
We'll see. I'll be trying to pick one up myself as I'd be at least buying the codex, cards and some squig riders, so the rest is a cheap addition.
I get that it's an expensive hobby and GW does themselves no favours in that regard, but it's a little tiresome reading that in every release thread.
I think the big difference to sisters is that I can just slot the boyz, squigriders and nob on squig in an existing and functional army without bending over backwards. I just plan to run those models alongside my buggies and walkers.
tneva82 wrote: Fyi the box contents will cost less than separately. There's your premium
Cool. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about GW40k books being not worth the cost.
tneva82 wrote: But hey never get fact get in way of lying rant
Don't accuse me of lying when you don't even understand my post. Jesus...
Jidmah wrote: Neither codices nor the PA books have become invalid by any measure and have been a valuable asset when gaming all through their lifespan.
The PA and Vigilus books become invalid for Chaos players next Saturday. I think the Dark Eldar lost the use of their PA stuff when their new book came out (and it's DLC). Machine War and AdMech probably, right? These aren't old books.
*The term 'unboxing' as interpreted by GW, in that it contains little in the way of actual unboxing.
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah man, I’d be keen for this box, but if it’s true that Aus is getting smacked with 1 per store I’m very likely not going to get one :(
Especially given that certain parts of our country can't go to stores right now. Sucks for those that want it.
I'd love to know the justification for a 4+ save.... And I'm hoping it is just because of the Squighog. T5 4+ save boyz would be a nuisance if they can be taken in serious numbers, especially with KFF, or ways to move them far and fast.
Good to see some options in there. I'll probably magnetize the slugga / big choppa arm.
Thump gun looks okay though I'm not sure if it's that useful in an otherwize CC squad. I found a use for my Kromlech Ork-Shotguns I guess .
I'd love to know the justification for a 4+ save.... And I'm hoping it is just because of the Squighog. T5 4+ save boyz would be a nuisance if they can be taken in serious numbers, especially with KFF, or ways to move them far and fast.
Bikers get a 4+ save, so it's just in line with that I imagine.
I'd love to know the justification for a 4+ save.... And I'm hoping it is just because of the Squighog. T5 4+ save boyz would be a nuisance if they can be taken in serious numbers, especially with KFF, or ways to move them far and fast.
Bikers get a 4+ save, so it's just in line with that I imagine.
Too dumb to feel the pain I guess. Any Orc willing to run out into a herd of these things to try and break one for riding has probably been kicked in the head a few times.
Riders tend to get enhanced saves, probably to represent that a lot of the shots are going to hit the vehicle/fungus pig. So the 4+ is probably more representing the fungus pig and it’s dead ‘ard skin/armour plates.
Did they mention the Nob coming with his own bomb/attack squig? There's a normal sized squig face on that sprue, and there's at least one more small sprue to be seen, as the big squig's metal head plate is missing (in addition to the rest of the wee squig).
I wonder if there are any other options they've decided not to show us? PK would be nice, but another build would be really interesting. A mounted wurrboy or dok, wouldn't go amiss.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The PA and Vigilus books become invalid for Chaos players next Saturday. I think the Dark Eldar lost the use of their PA stuff when their new book came out (and it's DLC). Machine War and AdMech probably, right? These aren't old books.
So your argument for not buying the box is that 10th might be released in the next half year...
Sometimes you need to leave goalposts where they are.
Trimarius wrote: Did they mention the Nob coming with his own bomb/attack squig? There's a normal sized squig face on that sprue, and there's at least one more small sprue to be seen, as the big squig's metal head plate is missing (in addition to the rest of the wee squig).
I wonder if there are any other options they've decided not to show us? PK would be nice, but another build would be really interesting. A mounted wurrboy or dok, wouldn't go amiss.
It's actually not a Squig but an alternative nob head as you can see on WarCom, where they show two ways to build the Nob.
Trimarius wrote: Did they mention the Nob coming with his own bomb/attack squig? There's a normal sized squig face on that sprue, and there's at least one more small sprue to be seen, as the big squig's metal head plate is missing (in addition to the rest of the wee squig).
I wonder if there are any other options they've decided not to show us? PK would be nice, but another build would be really interesting. A mounted wurrboy or dok, wouldn't go amiss.
It's actually not a Squig but an alternative nob head as you can see on WarCom, where they show two ways to build the Nob.
I believe that is the head for Bomb Squig ridden by the grot. The sprue is connected to another sprue or two because the piece numbers do not add up. The connection point is barely visible because the picture has been cropped.
Trimarius wrote: Did they mention the Nob coming with his own bomb/attack squig? There's a normal sized squig face on that sprue, and there's at least one more small sprue to be seen, as the big squig's metal head plate is missing (in addition to the rest of the wee squig).
I wonder if there are any other options they've decided not to show us? PK would be nice, but another build would be really interesting. A mounted wurrboy or dok, wouldn't go amiss.
It's actually not a Squig but an alternative nob head as you can see on WarCom, where they show two ways to build the Nob.
Trimarius wrote: Did they mention the Nob coming with his own bomb/attack squig? There's a normal sized squig face on that sprue, and there's at least one more small sprue to be seen, as the big squig's metal head plate is missing (in addition to the rest of the wee squig).
I wonder if there are any other options they've decided not to show us? PK would be nice, but another build would be really interesting. A mounted wurrboy or dok, wouldn't go amiss.
It's actually not a Squig but an alternative nob head as you can see on WarCom, where they show two ways to build the Nob.
Idk dude it looks like a Squig to me.
Look at the dude on the right. I get where you're coming from but I'm pretty sure it's the face of that head.
Trimarius wrote: Did they mention the Nob coming with his own bomb/attack squig? There's a normal sized squig face on that sprue, and there's at least one more small sprue to be seen, as the big squig's metal head plate is missing (in addition to the rest of the wee squig).
I wonder if there are any other options they've decided not to show us? PK would be nice, but another build would be really interesting. A mounted wurrboy or dok, wouldn't go amiss.
It's actually not a Squig but an alternative nob head as you can see on WarCom, where they show two ways to build the Nob.
Idk dude it looks like a Squig to me.
Look at the dude on the right. I get where you're coming from but I'm pretty sure it's the face of that head.
I'd love to know the justification for a 4+ save.... And I'm hoping it is just because of the Squighog. T5 4+ save boyz would be a nuisance if they can be taken in serious numbers, especially with KFF, or ways to move them far and fast.
Bikers get a 4+ save, so it's just in line with that I imagine.
Too dumb to feel the pain I guess. Any Orc willing to run out into a herd of these things to try and break one for riding has probably been kicked in the head a few times.
Or got a Iron Bar into the Head, like that Dude on the Preview...
I'd love to know the justification for a 4+ save.... And I'm hoping it is just because of the Squighog. T5 4+ save boyz would be a nuisance if they can be taken in serious numbers, especially with KFF, or ways to move them far and fast.
As someone else said, the 4+ is probably due to the fungus pig. And I can guarantee you as an ork player that a KFF is not as great as it sounds on paper - it's much harder to cover entire big mobs of boyz than you might think. Even then, you're going to fail 2/3rds of your saves anyways.
Full props to GW on this one. Alternate head and weapon for the nob. And the squig can have a robot leg.
Why couldn't they do that with the Squigosaurus? There's nothing special about the white squig compared to the vanilla one, save for the color. Both are the same size, and since they have identical builds, they'll both have robo legs...
Full props to GW on this one. Alternate head and weapon for the nob. And the squig can have a robot leg.
Why couldn't they do that with the Squigosaurus? There's nothing special about the white squig compared to the vanilla one, save for the color. Both are the same size, and since they have identical builds, they'll both have robo legs...
Am I dumb? I can't find the other leg on the sprue pic for the Squiggo. My biggest disappointment about the Boss/White Squig rider was the robo leg used for both builds so I'd love if that's not the case for the Nob Squig but I only see two legs in the sprue pic (which both seem to be the same side leg).
Full props to GW on this one. Alternate head and weapon for the nob. And the squig can have a robot leg.
Why couldn't they do that with the Squigosaurus? There's nothing special about the white squig compared to the vanilla one, save for the color. Both are the same size, and since they have identical builds, they'll both have robo legs...
Am I dumb? I can't find the other leg on the sprue pic for the Squiggo. My biggest disappointment about the Boss/White Squig rider was the robo leg used for both builds so I'd love if that's not the case for the Nob Squig but I only see two legs in the sprue pic (which both seem to be the same side leg).
Based off the squig head, it's probably a shard sprue with the squig hogs and isn't show in that picture. But if you look on the war com site, you can see photos of both right legs, flesh and mechanical. It's a great move.
The arms they show at the bottom of the article look very similar to how current ork arms are (by that, I mean smooth at the end). Dare we hope that these are more or less compatible with the current range?
Full props to GW on this one. Alternate head and weapon for the nob. And the squig can have a robot leg.
Why couldn't they do that with the Squigosaurus? There's nothing special about the white squig compared to the vanilla one, save for the color. Both are the same size, and since they have identical builds, they'll both have robo legs...
Am I dumb? I can't find the other leg on the sprue pic for the Squiggo. My biggest disappointment about the Boss/White Squig rider was the robo leg used for both builds so I'd love if that's not the case for the Nob Squig but I only see two legs in the sprue pic (which both seem to be the same side leg).
Based off the squig head, it's probably a shard sprue with the squig hogs and isn't show in that picture. But if you look on the war com site, you can see photos of both right legs, flesh and mechanical. It's a great move.
The arms they show at the bottom of the article look very similar to how current ork arms are (by that, I mean smooth at the end). Dare we hope that these are more or less compatible with the current range?
Ah, thanks I didn't realize there was another sprue involved. I'm curious if the Nob is part of the unit or a solo hero or both, but I guess we'll find out soon enough. I've never messed with Orks so I'm trying to wrap my head around the Nobs being add-ons to units over just being the Sgt like in a Marine squad.
*The term 'unboxing' as interpreted by GW, in that it contains little in the way of actual unboxing.
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah man, I’d be keen for this box, but if it’s true that Aus is getting smacked with 1 per store I’m very likely not going to get one :(
Especially given that certain parts of our country can't go to stores right now. Sucks for those that want it.
Funny thing, but I can't see the Squig's head plating and the left leg (two right ones, one mechanic one "original").
Unless I'm completely unable to spot such huge bits, it means that the Squig Nob comes on two sprues.
That would explain the lack of a body that comes with that lil' Squig face as well.
Given that that sprue has part of the Wheely Squig, I think it's safe to say that:
1. He comes in the box with the other three Squighog Riders, and all their stuff is jumbled together. 2. He comes in a box by himself, and he's two sprues.
Jidmah wrote: So your argument for not buying the box is that 10th might be released in the next half year...
I don't recall saying that... *checks post* Nope. Nothing about 10th.
Jidmah wrote: Sometimes you need to leave goalposts where they are.
Stick to building men out of plastic rather than straw...
Jidmah wrote: That word doesn't mean what you think it does. The only time I ever look up points in a book is when I play a game before BS has updated.
The point, Jid, which I thought would have been obvious by now, is that 40K printed material isn't worth a damn. They cycle through it too quickly, and erratas/new CA books can make them less and less useful. Add to that that buying limited edition ones is even more foolish, as now you're paying a premium for a limited use product.
It’s not just 40k, AoS is doing it too. As mentioned Luminoth didn’t last long. The last Broken Realms book had new Warscrolls for Sylvaneth Wyldwoods, and those have Already been replaced with a new one that lost the best buff they’d gotten.
Jidmah wrote: So your argument for not buying the box is that 10th might be released in the next half year...
I don't recall saying that... *checks post* Nope. Nothing about 10th.
There is literally no other reason for an ork codex to become obsolete but a new one being released. All the examples you provided were invalidated because a new edition with new codices was rolled out.
Since you denounced the last one of your own arguments yourself, you might as well admit that you were wrong.
Not sure how I feel about the Speedwaaagh basically just enhancing shooting. So it means ork vehicles get more shots and that they're a slightly better AP? Still won't make a huge difference with BS 5+.
Mr. Grey wrote: Not sure how I feel about the Speedwaaagh basically just enhancing shooting. So it means ork vehicles get more shots and that they're a slightly better AP? Still won't make a huge difference with BS 5+.
I just want it to change to auto hits. Not because I want it to be more powerful, just so I don’t have to roll so many dice! But I hope it stays either way, it’s fun.
So they are talking about weapons "with the Dakka rule", which I guess means that not all weapons may get the DDD rule? Maybe it's a way of balancing out more streamlined automatic hits rule by not applying it to Rokkts and KMBs and such.
Oguhmek wrote: So they are talking about weapons "with the Dakka rule", which I guess means that not all weapons may get the DDD rule? Maybe it's a way of balancing out more streamlined automatic hits rule by not applying it to Rokkts and KMBs and such.
You might be onto something. Wonder if they'd remember to update the FW units too though
Mr. Grey wrote: Sure. Let's hope that DDD isn't changing too much, it's a flavorful rule for orks.
It will still be there. Best bet is it removes superfluous rolling.
Also on the new Waaagh(s) - I love that it isn't an aura. No more huddling around the boss. So happy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Extending thoughts on DDD...since they have defined "Dakka weapons" I have no doubt that DDD will be extra hit(s) on 6 and then weapons like Rokkits won't have DDD.
Good point DDD could be "when firing with a Dakka weapon an unmodified hit roll of 6 inflicts an additional hit". Then they make a list of Dakka weapons leaving the more "precise" weapons off the list.
Could go a long way to balancing Shoota and Slugga Boyz if Shootas are Dakka weapons while Sluggs are not.
alextroy wrote: Good point DDD could be "when firing with a Dakka weapon an unmodified hit roll of 6 inflicts an additional hit". Then they make a list of Dakka weapons leaving the more "precise" weapons off the list.
Could go a long way to balancing Shoota and Slugga Boyz if Shootas are Dakka weapons while Sluggs are not.
I'm fairly sure that both will be dakka weapons, since they are the equivalent of bolter and bolt pistol.
Non-dakka weapons are very likely to be all the energy/plasma weapons and possibly explosives.
Prometheum5 wrote: Probably be a stratagem to select or modify your roll, right? Maybe a Mek ability?
No doubt. Maybe in both. Gotta add more layers of rules on top of more layers of rules. Nothin' quite like introducing a new rule and then immediately introducing a new way (or two) of getting around it.
"After selecting targets roll to see if your shot will be wasted this turn."
Depends on the cost. 3 of them shooting a vehicle gets one a throwawayish profile. Same when shooting a horde. Same with Gravis. Seems at least two profiles are useful against any one target.
Daedalus81 wrote: Depends on the cost. 3 of them shooting a vehicle gets one a throwawayish profile. Same when shooting a horde. Same with Gravis. Seems at least two profiles are useful against any one target.
Consistency trumps potential, especially in a game as short and lethal as 40k. If there's something for equivalent cost that does its job reliably*, then that gets picked over a weapon that may not even be the right tool for the job 2/3rds of the time. Cost be damned.
"After selecting targets roll to see if your shot will be wasted this turn."
Depends on the cost. 3 of them shooting a vehicle gets one a throwawayish profile. Same when shooting a horde. Same with Gravis. Seems at least two profiles are useful against any one target.
Yeah, exactly. Before it was a joke of an weapon but now I could imagine taking it. Depeding on point cost of course!
Daedalus81 wrote: Depends on the cost. 3 of them shooting a vehicle gets one a throwawayish profile. Same when shooting a horde. Same with Gravis. Seems at least two profiles are useful against any one target.
Consistency trumps potential, especially in a game as short and lethal as 40k. If there's something for equivalent cost that does its job reliably*, then that gets picked over a weapon that may not even be the right tool for the job 2/3rds of the time. Cost be damned.
*And yeah, I know we're talking about Orks.
The SAG era from 8th disagrees. GW didn't bump them to 120 points for nothing.
How so? One roll for type, then (sometimes) rolling for shots sounds like it will be faster than rolling for shots, rolling for S, rolling for AP, and rolling for damage, and then actually resolving the attack.
How so? One roll for type, then (sometimes) rolling for shots sounds like it will be faster than rolling for shots, rolling for S, rolling for AP, and rolling for damage, and then actually resolving the attack.
Yea my bad, I misremembered them being one of those "roll once for the whole unit" deals before
Blastaar wrote: What......??? How do Ork guns fire fewer shots at close range?? What is the point of the Dakka type at all? Why on earth are rokkit launchas heavy?
You're misreading it, they fire more shots at close range. The first value is what you use for when you are within half range. The second value is for when you are more than half range.
Bubble chuckas are still crap. The problem with chuckas is that they were unreliable. So GW fixed the problem by making them unreliable To be fair, they are more reliable than before, but not as much as they need to be.
Blastaar wrote: What......??? How do Ork guns fire fewer shots at close range?? What is the point of the Dakka type at all? Why on earth are rokkit launchas heavy?
You're misreading it, they fire more shots at close range.
The first value is what you use for when you are within half range.
The second value is for when you are more than half range.
Bubble chuckas are still crap.
The problem with chuckas is that they were unreliable. So GW fixed the problem by making them unreliable To be fair, they are more reliable than before, but not as much as they need to be.
Well it's a tough design with Orks. If you make them reliable, people say: they're not fun anymore.
If you make them unreliable, people say: well, that’s garbage I'd say without points it's impossible to say whether something is worth it.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Well it's a tough design with Orks. If you make them reliable, people say: they're not fun anymore.
If you make them unreliable, people say: well, that’s garbage I'd say without points it's impossible to say whether something is worth it.
I think people might be jumping the gun a bit. It is a pretty major change to go from totally random stats to randomly picking a profile. The edge cases of one shot at crap stats or six shots at Titan-nuking strength are gone, and there's less range in the variables you still roll for.
The SAG has more randomness but that's seemed pretty popular.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Well it's a tough design with Orks. If you make them reliable, people say: they're not fun anymore.
If you make them unreliable, people say: well, that’s garbage I'd say without points it's impossible to say whether something is worth it.
I think people might be jumping the gun a bit. It is a pretty major change to go from totally random stats to randomly picking a profile. The edge cases of one shot at crap stats or six shots at Titan-nuking strength are gone, and there's less range in the variables you still roll for.
The SAG has more randomness but that's seemed pretty popular.
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised to see a strat that let's you pick the profile for the whole unit...
alextroy wrote: You have to give GW points for trying to upsell Dakka when it a cut-rate Rapid Fire.
I assume it'll be Assault+, where you get about half of RF on top. Otherwise it fails to represent the whole point of that rule: running forward with the trigger held down.
Not thrilled with the Rokkits moving to Heavy, since the -1 to move penalty will counteract the additional shots and just make you roll an extra time for the RoF d3.
Overall, though, I'd rather have just kept DDD as a rule, but with a 6 being an extra hit, instead. Mostly works out to be the same, saves a step, and you aren't hosed by -1 to hit.
Dakka weapon is better than DDD if you are within half range. It is worse in that there is nothing if you are not within half range.
Some people likely noticed shootas are 18", half being 9" so no deep striking them in to get lots of shots.
Dakka weapon looks good in that you can advance and get more shots at half range, 30 shoots boys advancing with DDD were scoring 11 hits, now they are likely to score around 15 hits.
The rokkit launcher on a vehicle looks really solid, basically getting twice as many shots as before on average. I think that is the real winner here, along with KMB
blaktoof wrote: The rokkit launcher on a vehicle looks really solid, basically getting twice as many shots as before on average. I think that is the real winner here, along with KMB
Yea - this is another piece that helps Orks transition away from Mekgunz if they want to.
alextroy wrote: You have to give GW points for trying to upsell Dakka when it a cut-rate Rapid Fire.
Sort of true, but statwise Dakka weapons still tend to have higher rates of fire compared to Rapid Fire, especially past half range.
It seems to vary wildly by the weapon. I'm sure someone will math it all out at some point.
The real upside is it cuts down on some pointless dice rolling and fishing for 6s.
But honestly, it seems like streamlining, but not something to actually get excited about.
blaktoof wrote:The rokkit launcher on a vehicle looks really solid, basically getting twice as many shots as before on average. I think that is the real winner here, along with KMB
Yeah, on vehicles its a broad improvement. On infantry...
WarCom wrote:But what they lack in accuracy they’ve always made up for in rate of fire and raw enthusiasm – a tactical approach the Orks themselves have dubbed ‘dakka’.
I love GW's inability to remember past editions at all.
30 shots is a lot, but not that much when it comes to BS5. It will only kill a small handful of vanguard without some additional support. It's a model that has to punch, shoot, and be near a KFF to get the most out of it.
30 shots is a lot, but not that much when it comes to BS5. It will only kill a small handful of vanguard without some additional support. It's a model that has to punch, shoot, and be near a KFF to get the most out of it.
It was more a poke at Xenomancers worst fears made manifest.....
This is a good change considering other incoming buffs. It will help lists lean away from mek gun spam.
Absolutely. And to be fair 9 mek gunz is still A LOT of mek gunz.
Very few people actually own the models to spam mek gunz properly. 10-18 mek gunz has never been real, despite Smasha Gunz being ultra undercosted and spammable on paper since 3 years, becuase you know those things cost 50$ per model.
The real difference is that now 4-6 mek gunz eat up two heavy support slots, which is a significant change.
alextroy wrote: You have to give GW points for trying to upsell Dakka when it a cut-rate Rapid Fire.
I assume it'll be Assault+, where you get about half of RF on top. Otherwise it fails to represent the whole point of that rule: running forward with the trigger held down.
Not thrilled with the Rokkits moving to Heavy, since the -1 to move penalty will counteract the additional shots and just make you roll an extra time for the RoF d3.
Overall, though, I'd rather have just kept DDD as a rule, but with a 6 being an extra hit, instead. Mostly works out to be the same, saves a step, and you aren't hosed by -1 to hit.
Rokkits and KMB have blast now so at least when targeting units of 6+, you have max attacks.
I’m just hoping that they remembered to add “Dakka weapons also count as assault” in the codex, because at the moment, that’s not what it says. So good luck getting into half range when you can’t advance and shoot…
I know it's niche but the shoota changes and the additional T do buff shoota trukk boys nicely. Though sadly you can't jump a big unit and use the full power of shootaz. Unless More Dakka lets you use the higher dakka profile at long range, assuming DDD is no longer a thing of course.
Jadenim wrote: I’m just hoping that they remembered to add “Dakka weapons also count as assault” in the codex, because at the moment, that’s not what it says. So good luck getting into half range when you can’t advance and shoot…
blaktoof wrote: The rokkit launcher on a vehicle looks really solid, basically getting twice as many shots as before on average. I think that is the real winner here, along with KMB
Did you check what vehicles actually have rokkits?
- SJD, which often advances to jump
- kanz
- koptas, which now got their much better KMB variant back
- nauts
- scrapjet
So outside of kanz and maybe koptas, there really isn't anyone benefiting greatly from the change.
Jadenim wrote: I’m just hoping that they remembered to add “Dakka weapons also count as assault” in the codex, because at the moment, that’s not what it says. So good luck getting into half range when you can’t advance and shoot…
This!!!
Also my biggest concern. Along with Rokkits being Heavy is a big nerf to Tankbustas. Always hated fishing for 6's, it's such a boring mechanic.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: We might see it dished out to Gorkanaughts too, given it’s Rokkit Array?
That rokkit arrays is just a regular twin rokkitlauncha - the idea is (was?) that each rokkit can only be shot once, so almost all vehicles have extra rokkits to be able to shoot more than once without needing to reload. Who wants to be reloading when you can be shooting or fighting instead? SJD, koptas or kanz/dreads all have more rokktis than shots as well, that's just how orks are.
The rokkit kannon is a belt-fed machine gun, except it shoots rokkits instead of bullets.
blaktoof wrote: The rokkit launcher on a vehicle looks really solid, basically getting twice as many shots as before on average. I think that is the real winner here, along with KMB
Did you check what vehicles actually have rokkits?
- SJD, which often advances to jump
- kanz
- koptas, which now got their much better KMB variant back
- nauts
- scrapjet
So outside of kanz and maybe koptas, there really isn't anyone benefiting greatly from the change.
Yeah we dont really have a lot of vehicles that have or are caked in Rokkits. We no longer have it as an option for Battlewagons, Big Trakks cant take them, neither can Trukks. And even then we might get the silly ruling of whats in the kits is what you can have, so 1 in 3 Kans having a Rokkit Launcha, Dreads having max of 2. Im not fond of the heavy change on Rokkits, I dont think it was needed and doesnt not suit the weapon itself. Dakka weapons.... yeah thats a whole nother issue....
So...Dethskulls got nerfed, and Snakebites are pretty filthy now.
I guess GW really wants us to play Snakebites.
Snagga Warboss only buffing Snagga boyz...
And Wartrike Boss possibly only buffing Speed Freaks? (not in this leak, but would be logical somehow...)
Not really helpful when you can only take one Warboss per detachment.
Snakebite bonus only helps against S6 and S7 weapons... which won't really help boyz but the beast riders possibly, as they'll get some heavier weapons pointed at them probably.
Yuuuuup, as I said in the main Orks tactics thread, there's going to be a lot of negative change ups in the Ork tool box.
No more mob rule.
6+ invuln KFF (booooo)
Generally underwhelming Klan traits (Goffs and Snakebitez seem the best ones shown so far, poor Blood Axes didn't even get a second look at their traits, they really needed a better secondary one, the 18" range staying is just salt on the wound)
Warboss aura of run and charge is gone, +1 to hit instead, which makes me wonder what they're doing to the WAAAGH! Banner Nob rules.
Man, this isn't looking great for the green lads so far. Just hoping all the stuff we've seen is offset by some other stuff improving.
The only thing I really wanted from the new Codex was something similar to what Dark Eldar get to allow Clan-mixing in the same Detachment. Single Clan warbands are lame.
Nazrak wrote: Man, this isn't looking great for the green lads so far. Just hoping all the stuff we've seen is offset by some other stuff improving.
The only thing I really wanted from the new Codex was something similar to what Dark Eldar get to allow Clan-mixing in the same Detachment. Single Clan warbands are lame.
Seems like a lot of these changes are just... change for the sake of change? And not necessarily for the better, but it's like someone at GW looked at the 8e codex and made the executive decision that the 9th edition one needs NEW THINGS. So far I'm not impressed by what I'm hearing. Morkanauts as Lords of War? KFF moving to 6+? ugh.
Nazrak wrote: Man, this isn't looking great for the green lads so far. Just hoping all the stuff we've seen is offset by some other stuff improving.
The only thing I really wanted from the new Codex was something similar to what Dark Eldar get to allow Clan-mixing in the same Detachment. Single Clan warbands are lame.
Seems like a lot of these changes are just... change for the sake of change? And not necessarily for the better, but it's like someone at GW looked at the 8e codex and made the executive decision that the 9th edition one needs NEW THINGS. So far I'm not impressed by what I'm hearing. Morkanauts as Lords of War? KFF moving to 6+? ugh.
Yeah, I was pretty excited for the new book given what a good job the recent Codices seem to have done at evening things out – toning down the auto-take stuff, boosting up the stuff that struggled – but a lot of this just feels like musical-chairsing a bunch of stuff that was actually fine to begin with around just for the sake of it. Obviously we won't have the full picture until (hopefully) Saturday, but I'm a bit nervous at the moment.
Nevermind the supposed new "buggies need to maintain coherency" rule. With bases the size that they're on, that's incredibly difficult if you want to actually move them anywhere instead of just parking them in an empty spot on the board.
No idea if it’s the same source that has been correct so far
Well, today there finally seem to be some good news. The squig riders actually seem decent and come in packs of six, the stratagem is good enough and my favorite relic, the shiney shoota, is coming back.
Nevermind the supposed new "buggies need to maintain coherency" rule. With bases the size that they're on, that's incredibly difficult if you want to actually move them anywhere instead of just parking them in an empty spot on the board.
Yeah, if that rule turns out to be true, units of 3 buggies will be a thing of the past - which would mean the buggy list is dead and buried.
No idea if it’s the same source that has been correct so far
Well, today there finally seem to be some good news. The squig riders actually seem decent and come in packs of six, the stratagem is good enough and my favorite relic, the shiney shoota, is coming back.
Would def be glad to see the Shiny Shoota and the Gobshot stick about; just wondering now whether they'll be options for the Mega-armoured boss, given that he seems to have delegated shooting duties to his little shoulder-mounted mate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going to try and pick up the box when it goes up for pre-order as I really like the Squig Boy models, but if the Codex is really as much of a damp squib as all this stuff would seem to indicate, it's going on Ebay with all the other bits from the box I don't want/care about and I'll maybe pick it up down the line when I can be bothered.
So, I don't play Orks (I am watching the changes just because I enjoy seeing the overall changes to the game and like having some idea of what opposing armies will be like) so I don't know if these changes are good or bad. But I would say that Ork players should re-read the Dark Eldar and Admec N&R threads from the spring about how "bad" those armies were going to be prior to having all the rules released. Maybe the Ork book will be the first bust of 9th. I would not bet on that however, as so far every 9th book has been an improvement over the 8th book. And most are top dog when they are released. I hope that is what Ork players get, as everyone deserves time in the sun (until the next codex release lol)
xeen wrote: So, I don't play Orks (I am watching the changes just because I enjoy seeing the overall changes to the game and like having some idea of what opposing armies will be like) so I don't know if these changes are good or bad. But I would say that Ork players should re-read the Dark Eldar and Admec N&R threads from the spring about how "bad" those armies were going to be prior to having all the rules released. Maybe the Ork book will be the first bust of 9th. I would not bet on that however, as so far every 9th book has been an improvement over the 8th book. And most are top dog when they are released. I hope that is what Ork players get, as everyone deserves time in the sun (until the next codex release lol)
You're right of course – like I said, we won't have the whole picture til Saturday at the earliest. But as things currently stand I'm a little apprehensive. I'd gladly be proven wrong though.
I see Firestorm Games just noted they won't be putting this up on their website and ordering will be in store only due to how limited it is.
I already decided to skip this box, I'd rather hunt the Killteam one out of the two and I can wait for the main Ork book release, but good luck to anyone hunting one, sounds like its going to be rough.
True, but isn't everything on steroids now? They kind of need the toughness bonus to not die instantly due to a lack of a decent save.
Perhaps, but the idea that the 9th edition codex will be weaker than the previous one is just plain wrong.
It may be the weakest of the 9th edition codexes, but that buff alone makes it stronger than its predecessor.
I spent all of 7th edition playing with arguably the weakest codex out of the bunch. I'd rather not have a repeat of that experience throughout all of 9th edition and up until whatever 10th ed ork codex gets released. "Weakest of the 9th edition codexes" is still.... weakest of the codexes.
xeen wrote: So, I don't play Orks (I am watching the changes just because I enjoy seeing the overall changes to the game and like having some idea of what opposing armies will be like) so I don't know if these changes are good or bad. But I would say that Ork players should re-read the Dark Eldar and Admec N&R threads from the spring about how "bad" those armies were going to be prior to having all the rules released. Maybe the Ork book will be the first bust of 9th. I would not bet on that however, as so far every 9th book has been an improvement over the 8th book. And most are top dog when they are released. I hope that is what Ork players get, as everyone deserves time in the sun (until the next codex release lol)
Death guard was the same. I will withhold judgement on the ork codex until I've played a game or two with it, though I must say that I'm not super optimistic on things. This definitely has 7th edition vibes to it.
If I remember correctly one of the major things that was controversial for the DG release was the change of disgustingly resilient. I don't remember if there was much beyond that since the flat +1A is better than conditional hateful assault and 2W stat boost was always a good thing. The problem with the Ork leaks is that the vast majority have been nerfs or sidegrades at best. The klan kulturs are really the damning part since they really didn't upgrade the ones that needed it (Blood Axes) and nerfed the ones that were fine as is (Evil Sunz).
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.
In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.
KFF is partially a side grade as the wording went from wholly within to just within (according to the leaks), so weaker but easier to use. And +1 pts is not really a big raise for +1T.
Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.
There are plenty of S6 and S7 anti-horde weaponry, and all those +1 to wound rules, and the (admittedly rare) +2 is always successful rules.
The biggest difference here between what the other 9th ed book previews looked like and the ork book is that we have a pretty long list of rumors/leaks that seem to have a good track record. The other books did not have extensive leaks.
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.
That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.
I mean, we never see Hvy Onslaught gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, right?
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.
That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Dendarien wrote: The biggest difference here between what the other 9th ed book previews looked like and the ork book is that we have a pretty long list of rumors/leaks that seem to have a good track record. The other books did not have extensive leaks.
And based on those leaks, it ain't good.
There were tons of leaks of pretty much every book right before the MRB Preview came out for all of them. This level of leaks is in line with the others. I remember all the italian jokes about the Ad Mech one.
I
Dendarien wrote: The biggest difference here between what the other 9th ed book previews looked like and the ork book is that we have a pretty long list of rumors/leaks that seem to have a good track record. The other books did not have extensive leaks.
And based on those leaks, it ain't good.
There were tons of leaks of pretty much every book right before the MRB Preview came out for all of them. This level of leaks is in line with the others. I remember all the italian jokes about the Ad Mech one.
I
I stand corrected then - I don't play those armies so I wasn't trawling around for rumors on them.
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.
That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Yeah...I don't think the mini transhuman is good. The real benefit is that it makes +1 to wound rules moot. It certainly feels niche in comparison to something like Goffs.
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.
That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.
bullyboy wrote: But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.
As a Sisters player, I was definitely rubbing my hands with glee at the HF buff, just in time to stay ahead of the Ork T5 increase. Absolutely can confirm that Snakebites will probably be popular just by dint of having a big new release that caters to them with squiggy goodness has definitely dampened my spirits to hear that my S6 flamers will wound an entire clan on 4's instead of 3's as I was expecting.
I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.
the_scotsman wrote: I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.
Agreed. If +1 attack for 20 or more boyz is going away there's no reason to run big mobs. Right now it seems to me if we'll go in on regular boyz for Goffs or snagga boyz.
The reason to run large units is the FOC, unless you want to be paying CP on extra detachments, and stratagems and auras which naturally work better with larger units.
Feral Orks in 40K isn't a new thing, if you go back to 2nd it was a core theme of the army. They are just reintroducing old ideas, there are still new 'Goff' Ork releases too. Last big release was Kult of Speed. Now we have the three major themes done.
the_scotsman wrote: I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.
Agreed. If +1 attack for 20 or more boyz is going away there's no reason to run big mobs. Right now it seems to me if we'll go in on regular boyz for Goffs or snagga boyz.
in my eyes its gonna depend on whether EGT, the 3Cp fight again, or Da Jump are still in the mix.
given Ghazzy's 'no modifiers to attrition' aura which is at least SOMETHING I think if there are still strats like EGT and get stuck in then you may still want big blobbos.
Voss wrote: They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Ah, that's not true, +1 to wound for squigs is actually rather decent if you want to build an army around those. That's definitely better than just being worse deffskulls.
Tyran wrote: The reason to run large units is the FOC, unless you want to be paying CP on extra detachments, and stratagems and auras which naturally work better with larger units.
Sorry I wasn't very specific - I can see 6x 20 man units instead of 4x 30 for 120 boyz for instance. The FOC is a bit of a limit, but boyz are likely going up in cost anyways.
the_scotsman wrote: I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.
Agreed. If +1 attack for 20 or more boyz is going away there's no reason to run big mobs. Right now it seems to me if we'll go in on regular boyz for Goffs or snagga boyz.
in my eyes its gonna depend on whether EGT, the 3Cp fight again, or Da Jump are still in the mix.
given Ghazzy's 'no modifiers to attrition' aura which is at least SOMETHING I think if there are still strats like EGT and get stuck in then you may still want big blobbos.
Green Tide is gone if the reliable rumor source is to be believed.
sidebar, it would be truly hilarious to me if Dakka was indeed not Assault because I think there would be absolutely no weapon in the entire book that would benefit from half the newly-nerfed Evil Sunz trait.
Also i note no leaks for Freebootas? A shame, they were what i often ended up running my sunz as since it was a more fun trait than sunz.
the_scotsman wrote: sidebar, it would be truly hilarious to me if Dakka was indeed not Assault because I think there would be absolutely no weapon in the entire book that would benefit from half the newly-nerfed Evil Sunz trait.
Also i note no leaks for Freebootas? A shame, they were what i often ended up running my sunz as since it was a more fun trait than sunz.
bullyboy wrote: But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.
Ok, first of all, those weapons aren't "common" at all, but limited to two or three units of an enemy army. Look at whatever army trait your favorite army has and imagine it only working against 2-3 units in your opponent's army and doing zilch otherwise. But I'll bite anyways, I have a regular DA opponent who often brings a huntmaster and a gatling redemptor.
The talon master kills 9.666 T5 boyz. With transhuman it kills 8 boyz, 1.666 less than before. And just for completeness - the with the old snakebite kulture it would have killed only 7.555 boyz.
The redemptor (storm bolter, gatling, rocked pods, targeting 11+ models) kills 10.481 T5 boyz. With snakebite transhuman it kills 9.148, 1.333 less than before. With old snakebite FNP it's 8.901.
If you max out on redemtors and talon masters, the culture saves 7.333 boyz per turn worth 66 points.
So it's safe to say, no matter how many of your favorite S6 and 7 guns you bring, the transhuman part of the snakebites culture is never, ever worth bringing snakebites for.
bullyboy wrote: But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.
Ok, first of all, those weapons aren't "common" at all, but limited to two or three units of an enemy army. Look at whatever army trait your favorite army has and imagine it only working against 2-3 units in your opponent's army and doing zilch otherwise. But I'll bite anyways, I have a regular DA opponent who often brings a huntmaster and a gatling redemptor.
The talon master kills 9.666 T5 boyz. With transhuman it kills 8 boyz, 1.666 less than before. And just for completeness - the with the old snakebite kulture it would have killed only 7.555 boyz.
The redemptor (storm bolter, gatling, rocked pods, targeting 11+ models) kills 10.481 T5 boyz. With snakebite transhuman it kills 9.148, 1.333 less than before. With old snakebite FNP it's 8.901.
If you max out on redemtors and talon masters, the culture saves 7.333 boyz per turn worth 66 points.
So it's safe to say, no matter how many of your favorite S6 and 7 guns you bring, the transhuman part of the snakebites culture is never, ever worth bringing snakebites for.
basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).
You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.
bullyboy wrote: basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).
You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.
It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.
bullyboy wrote: basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).
You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.
It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.
True...but at that point 6+ was their only trait. +1 to wound on the charge for a bunch of melee units is fairly good, albeit they definitely did just make Snakebites into the 'so ya want to spam the new squiggy units, eh?' kultur by doing so.
Goffs is still 100% going to be the default clan as it is right now. It seems to be by far the best one - maybe you might go for evil sunz if there are good shooting units and if dakka does indeed also count as assault. but +1S on the charge and 6s to hit = two hits, army-wide on a good melee army vs garbage like "+6" range on heavy and dakka weapons, 6s to wound in shooting are -1AP!"
you'd probably get more benefit out of making a pure shooty ork army Goffs and getting buffs on your incidental melee attacks than making your shooty ork army Bad Moonz, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and I can't believe they were just too lazy to put freebootas in the codex. Pure "Eh......I dunno....I'm out of ideas......"
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Except the T5 robs the subS8 rule of a lot of its value, e.g. against S5
Is T5 not good enough without taking a weird trait that is of questionable value for most units, including the squig riders that are T6 and get the most benefit out of the second half of the trait.
bullyboy wrote: basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).
You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.
It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.
True...but at that point 6+ was their only trait. +1 to wound on the charge for a bunch of melee units is fairly good, albeit they definitely did just make Snakebites into the 'so ya want to spam the new squiggy units, eh?' kultur by doing so.
Goffs is still 100% going to be the default clan as it is right now. It seems to be by far the best one - maybe you might go for evil sunz if there are good shooting units and if dakka does indeed also count as assault. but +1S on the charge and 6s to hit = two hits, army-wide on a good melee army vs garbage like "+6" range on heavy and dakka weapons, 6s to wound in shooting are -1AP!"
you'd probably get more benefit out of making a pure shooty ork army Goffs and getting buffs on your incidental melee attacks than making your shooty ork army Bad Moonz, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and I can't believe they were just too lazy to put freebootas in the codex. Pure "Eh......I dunno....I'm out of ideas......"
Maybe theyll be the orks day 1 dlc...lol.
I too will miss the FB trait. It died with 9th edition, but it opened up a very different playstyle that was fun while it lasted.
Hard agree Goffs looks like the klan to build around unless there are hidden buffs. I feel pretty demoralized at this point that there are massive hidden gems we have not seen. It is just far easier to believe GW wrote a bad book, especially with the memory of the 7th ed ork codex haunting me.
bullyboy wrote: basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).
You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.
It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.
So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Except the T5 robs the subS8 rule of a lot of its value, e.g. against S5
Is T5 not good enough without taking a weird trait that is of questionable value for most units, including the squig riders that are T6 and get the most benefit out of the second half of the trait.
It's still a weird trait.
you can't move the goalposts. If S6 is just not common at all, how come S5 is?
Well, the S6 and the S7 is a bit wasted on infantry because those would be gunning against vehicles.
So once again the Snakebites get tanky vehicles compared to the other Kultures. At least you get squig based units this time.
You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.
bullyboy wrote: This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.
You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.
But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..
Isn't there a S5 weapon that has like 20 shots? I think that's what people might be thinking of. I mean, you're not wrong and it does have value, I just get why they aren't too impressed. It is indeed better than 6++ though.
you can't move the goalposts. If S6 is just not common at all, how come S5 is?
It's not even that so much, it's efficiency. Those high S shots might have been considered against moderately tough T5 and T6 infantry/cav.
With this rule it doesn't really impact the most efficient weapons, which will be S3 or S5 against T6 and S4/5/6 against T6.
It just doesn't provide as consistent of a benefit when you already hit the sweet spot on toughness, e.g. T5, as....dare I say....a 6+ FNP. Compare a 16.7% damage reduction across the board flat versus it being dependent on being hit by certain weapons whether you see any benefit at all. You would get that 16.7% chance save against everything, instead of just reducing your chance to be wounded by certain weapons.
bullyboy wrote: This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.
You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.
But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..
Isn't there a S5 weapon that has like 20 shots? I think that's what people might be thinking of.
I mean, you're not wrong and it does have value, I just get why they aren't too impressed.
It is indeed better than 6++ though.
That's the LR Punisher cannon I think you're referring to, but IG aren't exactly the most competitive atm, and even their marginal successes have mainly been a few manticores in the backfield for LoS blocking protection while drowning people in waves of bodies.
bullyboy wrote: This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.
You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.
But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..
It is a nerf...compared to the previous rule they had.
it sucks...compared to the other clan trait that is available (Goffs)
Orks overall may very well be in a better spot than previous. My money is honestly on 'about the same but generally healthier, with more average-to-decent options and fewer auto-includes' which is just about where you want to hit with a new book.
Unlike a skitarii trooper, an ork boy is looking to be a solid, good troop choice that does not provide absurd value but does provide solid, appreciable enough value that you won't just be bringing the min quantity to unlock detachments. Locked as they now seem to be at 3A (recall, previously, they were 5A with Ghazghkull and 20+ in the mob) but gaining T5 they are vastly more of a brick unit than the weird pseudo-glass cannon they are right now, which is good because with the loss of UGT and mooooooost likely the loss of da jump as an auto-take they will need to be crossing the board weathering fire.
I just pray that there's not some '1cp, on a 6 to hit with ork boyz deal a MW, capped at 27MW LOLOLOLOLOL" stratagem to ruin it all at the last second
I think what I'm seeing that others may not (whether right or wrong), is that S6 was leaning to become the perfect anti-hoard weapon. It exists on many platforms with high ROF and low AP (perfect for hordes), it has the dual benefit of wounding T3 on 2s (large blobs of sisters etc) while also wounding new Orks on 3s. Snakebites just throw that a little out the window.
Sure it's not the best thing eva!!, but it has some inherent durability that immediately counters S6 weapons.
As with prior books, I guess we won't know until the armies hit the table.
bullyboy wrote: basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).
You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.
It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.
So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.
Sigh. That isn't the comparison.
All orks now have T5 regardless of clan. The objection is specifically the corner case of S6 & 7 weapons only compared to the already limited utility of 6+++. Discounting 3s to wound on weapons that would only wound on 3+ anyway (S6 or S7 vs T5) is a 1/6 chance, similar to a 6+++ (with some fiddly math for multi-wound models and etc). Its just now baked into the wound roll and only matters with a much, much smaller subset of attacks rather than ALL attacks. That's worse, no matter how you want to slice it.
Instead you can take a different clan and have rules that might actually matter. They've 'improved' snakebites by adding conditional toughness to the universal toughness boost that ALL the clans get by virtue of being orks in the new book.
The new Snakebite rules are a conditional thing that may not matter and a punchier squig rider detachment, if you're going to take squigs anyway.
What we don't know yet is, if subkultures are somehow integrated. WarCom only mentioned beast Snaggas as a subkulture, but not if these are tied to another set of rules. It is possible that the subkultures from the PA book make it into the Codex, but this time don't replace the Klan. Considering the number of rules other factions have it is a possibility, especially since we don't know what our army bonus(doctrine equivalent) will be - or is it just the Waaagh ability? Would be a little sad since it only lasts two turns and is tied to a specific HQ, so even more limited than Necron rules.
So, maybe those Klan rules don't sound that hot because those, say, Snakebites can be combined with Feral Orks bonus, or Grot Mobs or whatever as well.
It's a question of whether or not the clan trait has value in relation to the new codex. I'm dubious.
But most of them seem to be in a bad spot now though based on the leaks. Death Skulls, Evil Suns, Bad Moons.
Death Skulls and Evil Suns in particular were just flat out nerfed if those leaks hold, and they've been accurate about everything this far.
I'm thinking Goffs will be fotm, but they have less value with snagga boys compared to regular boys since the rumor is they get +1s on charge. So the question to me is why go that route.
Its roughly beginning to me to look like all in on snagga gits versus a Goff horde, granted it's a sketchy picture so far viewed through a kaleidoscope.
I don't like that the snakebites secondary only affects squigs.
bullyboy wrote: This is where I don't understand Dakka at all.
You take away the main weapon to remove orks en masse (S4 weaponry), so now people look at to what is a better weapon. Not the Hvy Bolter because it's just 4's to wound and the D2 is wasted. So now you look at all the High ROF low AP weapons of S6/7 out there....Assault cannons, gatlings, shurcannons, scatter lasers, SOB Hvy flamers, Immolators etc, and you nerf those weapons by making them wound on 4s.
But apparently this is a nerf and sucks..
Its tiny buff vs tiny subpart of weapons(s6-7). Nerf vs s3-s5 and s8+.
All bolters, lasguns,poison weapons, shuriken catapults, missile launcheirs etc gain
Nazrak wrote: Man, this isn't looking great for the green lads so far. Just hoping all the stuff we've seen is offset by some other stuff improving.
The only thing I really wanted from the new Codex was something similar to what Dark Eldar get to allow Clan-mixing in the same Detachment. Single Clan warbands are lame.
Seems like a lot of these changes are just... change for the sake of change? And not necessarily for the better, but it's like someone at GW looked at the 8e codex and made the executive decision that the 9th edition one needs NEW THINGS. So far I'm not impressed by what I'm hearing. Morkanauts as Lords of War? KFF moving to 6+? ugh.
KFF lost wholly within so 6++ makes sense. Clan changes are in line with what 9th's direction.
People seem to think DE and AdMech are the rule rather than the exception.
Lootas at 3/2 is decent. They're 48" ( 54" Badmoons ) so now they're dropping far more shots than they were before when you had to spend CP to make it work. I'd wager that 'More DDD' is +1 shot.
EldarExarch wrote: These rumors are brutally depressing. I don't want to go more editions with Orks being garbage outside of running a gak ton of expensive mek guns.
My Deathskullz are now gutted. KFF nerfed (on an army that hardly has any invuls...outside of the now nerfed DS)
Just ugly all around....sad. Really hope these rumors aren't true or there is just a lot we aren't seeing here.
First, the rumors are actually two relics with 4++ invulnerable saves, snaggas get 6++ across the board, new named SC with a 4++, a warlord trait with 4++, and, we'll have to see if there is anything else.
One of the rumored 4++ relics are supa cybork body, which....is a hell of a good sign that maybe they finally listened and brought back real cybork bodies. The 6++ on the snagga gits appears to be partially based on their numerous bionic appendages, after all...
If all goes well, we either might not need KFF at all (or death skulls for that matter), or, as the rumor stated, it's going to be a big enough blanket (units within as opposed to wholly within) that we can at least use it to get army wide coverage for a reasonable price.
I'm mostly crossing my fingers on 4th edition style cybork bodies.
That said, there is a lot of garbage in the rumors, like warbosses being capped at 1 per army, no DDD, no mob rule, clan rules nerfed, no breakin' eads, no weirdboy mob bonus, etc. Going to create a ton of new problems on things previously taken for granted. Leadership will now be bad, mobility on footsloggers will be much worse, psychic powers are no longer guaranteed, and seems they want to channel us into close combat something bad.
Conversely, I really hated the idea of having to stay within bubbles in a horde army, it was just bad design all around.
I would kind of rather orks be strong just because the core stats of their gak is good rather than because of a billion overlapping usrs. The new admech book is a fething nightmare to play, its basically killed my enthusiasm for the army.
The snakebite Kulture is not a nerf. It’s actually comical that so many people think it is. Bring a pain boy/painboss and you get the old kulture for the price of that model. S6-7 are pretty pervasive in the meta (volkites, anti-Raider tech, etc.). There are lots of D2 weapons that blaze right through the old snakebite kulture. And permanent trans human on S7 or less means any S5-7 with +1 to wound or weapons that always wound on a given roll are completely negated, so too is DG -1 toughness. Re-rolls are super prevalent in the game and will convert less often into 4+ on the wound roll than 3’s. This is a hugely powerful kulture. You’re gonna be getting 6++ (from snaggas or a KFF) and 6+++, on a mass of T5 transhuman models. Snakebites have been buffed, and I’ll wager they form the core of competitive ork lists in the coming future.
Tmh wrote: The snakebite Kulture is not a nerf. It’s actually comical that so many people think it is. Bring a pain boy/painboss and you get the old kulture for the price of that model. S6-7 are pretty pervasive in the meta (volkites, anti-Raider tech, etc.). There are lots of D2 weapons that blaze right through the old snakebite kulture. And permanent trans human on S7 or less means any S5-7 with +1 to wound or weapons that always wound on a given roll are completely negated, so too is DG -1 toughness. Re-rolls are super prevalent in the game and will convert less often into 4+ on the wound roll than 3’s. This is a hugely powerful kulture. You’re gonna be getting 6++ (from snaggas or a KFF) and 6+++, on a mass of T5 transhuman models. Snakebites have been buffed, and I’ll wager they form the core of competitive ork lists in the coming future.
It does nothing against S5-. It does nothing against S8+.
So that leaves S6, S7, and niche other circumstances, such as Death Guard with S5 weapons or S5 weapons with +1 to-wound. It's a decent enough buff when it happens-3+ to 4+ reduces damage by 25%, which is better than the 20% boost you get from a 6+++. And it applies against damages greater than 1, which the 6+++ was basically useless against.
The issue is, it helps against such a small amount of weapons. How many S6 and S7 weapons do you actually see?
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.
Tmh wrote: The snakebite Kulture is not a nerf. It’s actually comical that so many people think it is. Bring a pain boy/painboss and you get the old kulture for the price of that model. S6-7 are pretty pervasive in the meta (volkites, anti-Raider tech, etc.). There are lots of D2 weapons that blaze right through the old snakebite kulture. And permanent trans human on S7 or less means any S5-7 with +1 to wound or weapons that always wound on a given roll are completely negated, so too is DG -1 toughness. Re-rolls are super prevalent in the game and will convert less often into 4+ on the wound roll than 3’s. This is a hugely powerful kulture. You’re gonna be getting 6++ (from snaggas or a KFF) and 6+++, on a mass of T5 transhuman models. Snakebites have been buffed, and I’ll wager they form the core of competitive ork lists in the coming future.
It does nothing against S5-. It does nothing against S8+.
So that leaves S6, S7, and niche other circumstances, such as Death Guard with S5 weapons or S5 weapons with +1 to-wound. It's a decent enough buff when it happens-3+ to 4+ reduces damage by 25%, which is better than the 20% boost you get from a 6+++. And it applies against damages greater than 1, which the 6+++ was basically useless against.
The issue is, it helps against such a small amount of weapons. How many S6 and S7 weapons do you actually see?
Volkites are everywhere in SM and DG, Autocannons in Ad Mech, most meaningful Necron and Aledari anti-infantry are S6-7. Exocrines for Tyranids…S6-7 is the sweet spot for antiinfantry, and snakebites are just straight up -1to wound against them and that cannot be modified. As soon as Boyz and snagga boyz at T5 was previewed, people were discussing the S6-7 anti-infantry options. Because there really isn’t S8 anti-infantry out there, so that doesn’t matter so much. People aren’t gonna be shooting their S8 into 90-120 boyz lol.
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.
...sure?
If 'you won't see a lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons fired at 1 wound naked infantry' is your argument for 'snakebites have a fine clan rule', I suggest giving that scenario a little more contemplation.
If its about the squighog riders or boss on squigbeasts who benefit from the other half of the snakebite rule, then, yeah, you actually will see S8 AT thrown at them. Like Chaos Juggers, they're perfectly (in fact, more) vulnerable to big guns, and worthwhile targets to smear off the table before they get close.
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.
...sure?
If 'you won't see a lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons fired at 1 wound naked infantry' is your argument for 'snakebites have a fine clan rule', I suggest giving that scenario a little more contemplation.
If its about the squighog riders or boss on squigbeasts who benefit from the other half of the snakebite rule, then, yeah, you actually will see S8 AT thrown at them. Like Chaos Juggers, they're perfectly (in fact, more) vulnerable to big guns, and worthwhile targets to smear off the table before they get close.
That's likely why it is the way it is. It would upset the internal balance of the book pretty heavily.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What are the existing problems with the current Ork Clan rules?
Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful.
Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.
The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.
Tyran wrote: Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.
Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.
Except the T5 robs the subS8 rule of a lot of its value, e.g. against S5
Is T5 not good enough without taking a weird trait that is of questionable value for most units, including the squig riders that are T6 and get the most benefit out of the second half of the trait.
It's still a weird trait.
Curiously I think Snakebites will do fairly well against Death Guard. With their toughness modifying and if I recall a preference for those sub 8 weapons you'll get some more mileage.
Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.
Except that you'll see those guns hitting your mobs more than something that is S8.
...sure?
If 'you won't see a lot of dedicated anti-tank weapons fired at 1 wound naked infantry' is your argument for 'snakebites have a fine clan rule', I suggest giving that scenario a little more contemplation.
If its about the squighog riders or boss on squigbeasts who benefit from the other half of the snakebite rule, then, yeah, you actually will see S8 AT thrown at them. Like Chaos Juggers, they're perfectly (in fact, more) vulnerable to big guns, and worthwhile targets to smear off the table before they get close.
That's likely why it is the way it is. It would upset the internal balance of the book pretty heavily.
What are you even arguing? There are very, very few scenarios were tossing AT shots at sub-10 point infantry makes sense. The vast majority of anti-infantry is S4 and S5. S6 and 7 are corner case compared to the sheer range of weapons, and only nixes 1/6 wound rolls for that specific case.
If you mean squighogs, maybe I was unclear- like Juggers, they're just going to vanish from the table. They aren't tough enough to survive 40k weapons fire. Its a unit that fills the same role as an existing unit, and has the same problem achieving anything, because it just isn't tough enough. They've redesigned monstrous cavalry and basically failed again.
Voss wrote: Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.
The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.
Thanks for the answer.
I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.
Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.
Voss wrote: Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.
The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.
Thanks for the answer.
I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.
Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.
Unfortunately, Blood Axes, one of the ones that arguably should have changed the most since they were borderline useless along with Snakebites, hasn't changed at all. They've even kept the asinine 18" outside of enemy counts as being in light cover rule. The other concern is that it seems like Freebootas as a Klan is being removed altogether.
OK, regardless of how the rules pan out, people here clamoring about S6 and S7 weapons being rare are simply off their heads and out of touch with the current game. The list is endless and used extensively.
And if facing the best Ork horde (Goffs apparently?) then the S6 weapons I've been talking about are the absolute best counter because you're not going to hit them with S10 weapons, so the cheapest and best weapon that wounds on 3's instead is the way forward. So what would you do to counter the expected counter for Orks??
we'll see how things go, but at least stop being disingenuous about S6 being "rare".
I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.
No, they literally just nerfed evil suns per the leak. It's the same as it was, just no more +1 to charge.
I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.
No, they literally just nerfed evil suns per the leak. It's the same as it was, just no more +1 to charge.
And by the looks of things with considerably less assault weaponry in the faction making the other part of it less valuable.
Voss wrote: Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.
The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.
Thanks for the answer.
I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.
Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.
Wouldn't hold out much hope for Blood Axes. Accurate leaks thus far point to no changes to it, and it's already bad. It will also have the added anti-synergy of wanting to get close for dakka gun profiles to be in half range while wanting to stay 18 inches out for the cover bonus.
In short most of the klans do nothing or are made obsolete by other klan rules. If you wanna do shooty MSU that's DS. If you wanna do melee horde it's Goff. Nothing else sees play, not even ES anymore.
As noted above, ES bizarrely do more for infantry than vehicles or bikers and their advance and assault without penalty seems weak in a codex that just lost assault on all these dakka weapons and rokkits. Snakebitez provided the most benefit to vehicles due to the value of 6+ FNP on multiwound models as opposed to infantry. Blood Axes give you no offensive bonus and a minimal amount of defense with a big conditional requirement of being greater than 18 inches away. Bad Moonz were just worse than DS at shooting for about all units or close enough the 6+++ and infantry-wide obsec made DS the better choice. Even Goffs were bad until we got Saga of the Beast and Ghaz to buff them up.
bullyboy wrote: So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.
No need to be a Richard, math shows that 6+++ is superior in every way to the new trait.
In any case, with Enriched rounds, Admech rangers still auto wound with a 4+ to hit, so for them, its not relevant really. You are still going to get upwards of 30 wounds from a ranger blob anyway.
bullyboy wrote: So you prefer a T4 6+++ over T5 that takes all S4 or less 5's to wound, and S5-7 4's to wound? Damn, you must make a lot of 6+++ saves.
No need to be a Richard, math shows that 6+++ is superior in every way to the new trait.
This reminds me of the people complaining about Death Guard losing their FNP, while conveniently ignoring the change to 2W in any calculations.
Which only further highlights how unrealistic it was for anyone to expect Snakebites to retain a 6+++ when 9E codexes have been almost universally toning down additional armywide saves. This was always going away. At least the replacement is likely more useful than what Graia AdMech were given instead...
Voss wrote: Most of them suck, Evil Sunz bizarrely encourages an infantry horde, Death Skulls get way too much with a pile of traits, and several are just wretchedly awful. Bad Moons is an exercise in even more tedious dice rolling to bump up average hits a bit.
The leaked new ones hit ES and DS in expected ways, Bad Moons shifts to a different pile of dice via extra range on dakka guns (slightly less tedious than reroll ones), Snakebites doesn't do much beyond tell you to take a detachment of Snakebites if you want to take squigs (though you might just be better off making them Goffs); so the usual rules failure of color= specific unit type buff.
Thanks for the answer.
I was worried that this was going to be another "Change for the Change God! Differences for the Difference Throne!" Codex from GW, where they just change a bunch of good rules people like for no damned reason, but if the current Klan Kulture stuff is pretty awful now (or doesn't fit the theme, like you've suggested with the current Evil Suns Kulture) then it's probably for the best they change.
Blood Axes are my fav Orks, so hopefully they won't suck.
Wouldn't hold out much hope for Blood Axes. Accurate leaks thus far point to no changes to it, and it's already bad. It will also have the added anti-synergy of wanting to get close for dakka gun profiles to be in half range while wanting to stay 18 inches out for the cover bonus.
Bloodaxes did get better though, while the trait still does little to nothing, at least the stratagem, relic and warlord traits have become rather decent. In addition, there might be some synergy with new kommandoz.
In the current codex bloodaxes is pretty much equivalent with not running a klan because the only thing they have going for them was having an extra warlord trait instead of a relic.
As noted above, ES bizarrely do more for infantry than vehicles or bikers and their advance and assault without penalty seems weak in a codex that just lost assault on all these dakka weapons and rokkits. Snakebitez provided the most benefit to vehicles due to the value of 6+ FNP on multiwound models as opposed to infantry. Blood Axes give you no offensive bonus and a minimal amount of defense with a big conditional requirement of being greater than 18 inches away. Bad Moonz were just worse than DS at shooting for about all units or close enough the 6+++ and infantry-wide obsec made DS the better choice. Even Goffs were bad until we got Saga of the Beast and Ghaz to buff them up.
For all klans you need to keep in mind that their power is defined by the combination of stratagem, relic, warlord trait, psychic power and kulture. Even in its worst interpretation, the red paint seems to be a rather powerful relic, and visions might become a lot better now that the weirdboy relic doesn't suck anymore - and possibly can be cast by the squig sled thing.
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xttz wrote: Which only further highlights how unrealistic it was for anyone to expect Snakebites to retain a 6+++ when 9E codexes have been almost universally toning down additional armywide saves. This was always going away. At least the replacement is likely more useful than what Graia AdMech were given instead...
Except that's completely different, because orks didn't get +1 wound.
The snakebite transhuman is objectively, without any doubt, worse than 6+++ in every possible way. Even under optimal conditions, for T4 or T5, it is never as good as what they had before. And what they had before was one of the worst traits in the whole codex.
Simply said, every single person claiming that this transhuman is strong, powerful or even anything that could remotely considered to be a buff is without doubt wrong and can be easily laughed at as a fool who is unqualified to talk about game rules.
The 6+++ trait was heavily NERFED to make room for a rather powerful buff to squigs. Anyone who doesn't even understand that can safely be ignored for all further discussion on the ork codex.
Jidmah wrote: Except that's completely different, because orks didn't get +1 wound.
The snakebite transhuman is objectively, without any doubt, worse than 6+++ in every possible way. Even under optimal conditions, for T4 or T5, it is never as good as what they had before. And what they had before was one of the worst traits in the whole codex.
Simply said, every single person claiming that this transhuman is strong, powerful or even anything that could remotely considered to be a buff is without doubt wrong and can be easily laughed at as a fool who is unqualified to talk about game rules.
The 6+++ trait was heavily NERFED to make room for a rather powerful buff to squigs. Anyone who doesn't even understand that can safely be ignored for all further discussion on the ork codex.
"Everyone who disagrees with me is a fool to be laughed at"
Yes, people who disagree with math without providing counter-proof can safely be considered fools. I know that opinion has become unpopular recently, but that's how the world actually works.
Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.
Seems like the defenders are trying to bundle the T increase together with the Snakebit trait, which is obviously not the case. Traits should be compared to other traits. Other Klnz get the T increase too, it's facateous to use it as an argument that Snakebites got buffed.
I mean the general T buff has nerfed indirectly the snakebites trait. In itself it would be a good ability, especially the lower your average T value is.
lord_blackfang wrote: Seems like the defenders are trying to bundle the T increase together with the Snakebit trait, which is obviously not the case. Traits should be compared to other traits. Other Klnz get the T increase too, it's facateous to use it as an argument that Snakebites got buffed.
Classic example of not understanding context. Snakebites are the most effected by T increase, thus they have received the greatest nerf by losing their 6+ FNP.
lord_blackfang wrote: Seems like the defenders are trying to bundle the T increase together with the Snakebit trait, which is obviously not the case. Traits should be compared to other traits. Other Klnz get the T increase too, it's facateous to use it as an argument that Snakebites got buffed.
The thing is, even if you do that, T4/6+++ is still strictly better than T5/new trait as S6/S7 weapons don't care about the extra toughness and still kill more boyz now.
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Not Online!!! wrote: I mean the general T buff has nerfed indirectly the snakebites trait. In itself it would be a good ability, especially the lower your average T value is.
I think GW wanted to improve snakebite durability against small arms but stumbled across themselves in the middle and came up with a trait that somehow turned out to be even more niche than prevent mortal wounds during the psychic phase.
hollow one wrote: Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.
At no point did I disagree about the math.
I said that the argument is moot because GW are pretty consistently removing wide-use FNP saves to speed up gameplay. Orks were never realistically going to keep a faction-wide 6+++ when it was taken away from multiple codexes. Is that such an unreasonable thing to say that I need to be insulted?
hollow one wrote: Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.
At no point did I disagree about the math.
I said that the argument is moot because GW are pretty consistently removing wide-use FNP saves to speed up gameplay. Orks were never realistically going to keep a faction-wide 6+++ when it was taken away from multiple codexes. Is that such an unreasonable thing to say that I need to be insulted?
There is no conversation with this comment, it's a reasonable but also purposeless statement. You're saying because you assumed FNP would go away there's no point feeling disappointed or comparing?
hollow one wrote: Jid's right. The corner case of S6 and S7 weapons being turned 16% is not as good as a 6+ FNP across all cases. It's no contest, arguing proves you don't understand context.
At no point did I disagree about the math.
I said that the argument is moot because GW are pretty consistently removing wide-use FNP saves to speed up gameplay. Orks were never realistically going to keep a faction-wide 6+++ when it was taken away from multiple codexes. Is that such an unreasonable thing to say that I need to be insulted?
Ah, I accidently cut of part of your comment when trimming down the quote pyramid, this must be why you feel insuled. However, you did say this, which is what I responded to:
xttz wrote: This reminds me of the people complaining about Death Guard losing their FNP, while conveniently ignoring the change to 2W in any calculations.
So, you actually did disagree about the math, and even implied that there was some sort of agenda behind misrepresenting it.
Well leaks look 100% accurate. He predicted ramshackle as well as LoW nauts and the rig profile.
Without some base profile changes don’t think the stompa is any good at 675.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...Snakebites are once again the faction that really wants to use vehicles because of the synergy between Ramshackle and their trait.
Also, I really don't like the Rigs. Maybe it's the paint scheme, but they really do look like a toy from Fisher Price or something.
Yeah I feel the same. Rig is way too big relative to the squig.
Yeah, I'm not keen on it either. Fair play to them doing something different I guess but I'm pretty set in my ways in term of what I want from Orks and it ain't that.
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