I'll say I'm happy with the news of the Karnivore loadouts. I thought from the annoucement it was just going to be melee only with that one loadout. Glad to see that's not the case here.
Here is a small list of the rumors that have been dumped from a semi-reliable source:
Spoiler:
Chaos Knight Leaks
Army Trait
PfP Like Mechanic. Looks like you chose 1 of 3 categories, and the effect happens. They stack as the game moves on and they are all debuffs to enemies within 12'
All Knights lost -2' of movement, with the exception of the Melee Knights (Rampager)
Dominus Class Knights have a 2+ Save
NO -1 Damage
5++ Only in shooting, NO built in Melee Invuln.
House Traits
Fell Bond (Custom Trait) Ramshackle.
Warlord Traits
Warlord can get a second trait
Units/Wargear
Volkite does 3 MWs on 6's
Melee Knights retain 2+ WS Thunderstrike Gaunt is flat 8D and also has a sweep attack at 3 Damage No more Minus to Hit. Sweeps are X2 Attacks.
Wardogs get reroll 1's in melee near a Melee Knight
Havocs are 48' S5 no LOS on Armigers
Wardog Gatling 12 shots Strength 6 AP -1 1D
Thermal Spear: 30" Heavy 2, S9 AP-4 Dd6 (Dd6+2 in half range)
Thermal Cannon: 30" Heavy 2d3 S9 AP-4 Dd6+2 (Dd6+4 in half range)
Volcano Lance D3 Shots, D6+8 Damage
RFBC: 72" Heavy 2d6 S8 AP-2 flat 3 damage
Helvrins: get an additional AP(!)
Armigers are now all distinct Datasheets.
Upgrades - "Favored of the Gods" Paid points upgrades that is updated based on wounds delivered.
Every Knight can have up to one.
Can get a full 4++ (Useable in melee as well)
Chaos Knight Psychic Tree
WC 6 No Overwatch + Weird Smite
WC6 D3 Mortals, and nearest to target takes 1 MW. 11+ D3 on both
WC6 5+++, Higher cast gives Wardogs within 6' a 6+++
WC6 All Enemies within 12' take a dread test. If failed, take 1 MW.
2 More that were not Caught
Infernal Chart
1 MW for random, D3 for Choice
- +3'
-+1 Wound on a Weapon
- Transhuman
Stratagems:
Heirlooms/Exalted Court down to 1/2 cp.
Rotate now a flat 2CP for all knights
2CP Roll a D6 for every model you kill in the fight phase, for ever 4+ you gain a Wound back to a Max of 8
-1 Damage in Melee
Relics:
HELM OF the Dogs - Wardog only relic +1 attack and all dogs 6' get reroll wound rolls of 1.
House Korvax Relic - Allows you to negate 1 saving throw a battle round.
Chaos Marks
Mark of Nurgle - Machine Spirit Resurgence
Three varieties of "Wardog" sounds marvelous and definitely spices up combat patrols.
I'm very tempted to purchase the upcoming set, but that depends on whether or not the Chaos Knights codex will still be running Warglaives and Helverins.
I bought 2 Desecrator/Rampager kits over the weekend - now I'm kinda regretting it because unless the price is crazy I'm going to try to score 3 of the new launch boxes (I'm figuring $200/box, figuring $160 for the Knight, $80 for the Armigers/Wardogs - if I can sell the extra codex and datacards online its well worth it) so I can get a solid entry in with those wardog variants. Also, are we assuming that the "tank-melting daemonbreath spear" on the War Dog Stalker is the same weapon as the flamer-looking weapon on the War Dog Brigands right arm?
GaroRobe wrote: I’m betting 240 for the box since it’s “big”
You might be right, simply because going back in time it looks like previous launch boxes were already $200. With the price hikes I can see them increasing the cost of the box further.
Really liking the War Dogs. Given existing CK armies will include the original ones, I’m wondering how they all stack up in terms of being attractive options.
Most places I have seen do discount them. I can hope that Miniaturemarket gets a huge pile of them again like they did with the Black Templars. They had them for 30% off in store only because they got the huge shipment of them. I might grab a couple. Sell the extra codex and stuff at the other local FLGS for store credit.
I think they do start as being already discounted compared to Separate Item RRP.
Checking my Orky set, that was £125. That came with..erm… £130 worth of models, the Codex (not counting a Ltd Ed premium, £32.50) and data cards (£17) for a total of £179.50.
Saving of slightly less than £55 before any other potential discounts.
Yeah, the Beastsnagga and Black Templars boxes didn't offer savings relative to the value of the models in the US iirc, but did within the context of the datacards, codex, and any other non-miniature based items. If that pattern holds true they are still worth buying multiple copies of since you can offload the codex/datacards at a discount price and make back some of your money - especially with a faction like Knights which are unlikely to get a Combat Patrol or a battleforce box, etc. this is basically the closest you're likely to get to a discounted bundle deal short of GW re-releasing Imperial Knight Renegade or bringing back those Apocalypse box sets.
SamusDrake wrote: Three varieties of "Wardog" sounds marvelous and definitely spices up combat patrols.
.
Yeah, I'm surprised that didn't come up in the preview show. Those kits (especially the wardog) are _much_ better than they first looked. I thought they'd be hard locked to choppy thing/fist and volkite/tentacles.
I'm intensely curious what the Khornate Abominant gets instead of psychic powers.
SamusDrake wrote: Three varieties of "Wardog" sounds marvelous and definitely spices up combat patrols.
.
Yeah, I'm surprised that didn't come up in the preview show. Those kits (especially the wardog) are _much_ better than they first looked. I thought they'd be hard locked to choppy thing/fist and volkite/tentacles.
I'm intensely curious what the Khornate Abominant gets instead of psychic powers.
dan2026 wrote: Will Chaos Knight armies still be able to use the Imperial Knight options like the Armigers?
The new wardog model seems to have the same option as the chainsword/melta lance armiger so I think those would be legal. The question remains about the dual-gun Armiger. I'd hope so as those models were sold as Armigers up until this point.
Can someone confirm for me, does this mean GW is actually supporting kitbashing in this instance, or simply that the new kits provide the old options so NOW they can take them in game?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Can someone confirm for me, does this mean GW is actually supporting kitbashing in this instance, or simply that the new kits provide the old options so NOW they can take them in game?
Chaos Knights can already include that equipment(sans the wigglers on the Armigers) via the Despoiler entry. The Desecrator and Questoris are technically the same chassis, the only difference is the armor plates(which are interchangeable between the two kits) and Desecrators having digitigrade legs. The shoulders are the exact same. This picture just shows the Despoiler based on a Desecrator kit, there's actually a decent amount of conversions and kitbashes in the Chaos Knight codex.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Can someone confirm for me, does this mean GW is actually supporting kitbashing in this instance, or simply that the new kits provide the old options so NOW they can take them in game?
Chaos Knights can already include that equipment(sans the wigglers on the Armigers) via the Despoiler entry. The Desecrator and Questoris are technically the same chassis, the only difference is the armor plates(which are interchangeable between the two kits) and Desecrators having digitigrade legs. The shoulders are the exact same. This picture just shows the Despoiler based on a Desecrator kit, there's actually a decent amount of conversions and kitbashes in the Chaos Knight codex.
Treating this as a general Knights thread, since there's no Loyalist version...
This is feeling a bit disappointing from the Loyalist side of things.
Not necessarily because Chaos Knights got new things, but rather because it seems like they're getting to keep the old setup they had which was already fairly flexible(twin Avenger Despoilers, mixing Warglaives and Helverins) and get new things as well.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong or something is done to really delineate the 'locked' variants a bit more on that Loyalist side of things.
Eldarain wrote: Tentacle wardog confirmed as a staffers old kitbash. Says they use his in the backgrounds as the scheme is close to the official big kinnigits.
That's too bad. Would have thought that'd be an excellent addition.
So far it seems that each Codex has received an accompanying new kit, so maybe there's something new for Imperial Knights.
Most likely they wanted all things Chaos and Heresy at Adepticon and left the Imperial Knights for another reveal, but showed the Imperial Knight codex to say "we haven't forgotten you" sort of thing.
No new models for imperial Two new models for chaos
A rule about how heroic your army is doing in four different categories and as you become more heroic the more abilities you gain
A squire mechanic where your big knights can tell a little knight to just be better
Imp knights are only getting a codex (but what a book)
The imperial knights have GREAT synergy between each other
Imperial teaching, armigers within range gain an additional hit for every 6 to hit
The preceptor becomes a chaplain for the imperial side
Chaos psychic power 5+fnp for caster If cast on a high number surrounding wardogs gain 6+fnp
Keep in mind that most other codexes got small character releases, which isn't likely for IK. They might just have to settle for new rules and perhaps some kind of discounted boxed set.
Imperial Knights already have more datasheets than say Harlequins and possibly Grey Knights. What Knights lack is the ability to play the secondary game and durability. Those are easily fixed with better rules, and I'm pretty excited about what I've seen so far!
Keep in mind that most other codexes got small character releases, which isn't likely for IK. They might just have to settle for new rules and perhaps some kind of discounted boxed set.
Well, you see, there is the small matter of Duncan...I just don't know how he'll cope.
I hope that the new Chaos Knights have access to mark god-specific rules, like relics and stratagems. I was thinking of converting some Nurgle Knights, but I don't want to go though all the effort just so the only special thing I can do is danger squirts.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Interesting note from the IG rumor thread is that russet and bane blades will be going up to T9. Will knights do the same?
I certainly hope so. 2+ and a real invulnerable save would be nice, too. I mean, considering the meta seems to be based on the ability to blow Knights off the board in one go...
ArcaneHorror wrote: I hope that the new Chaos Knights have access to mark god-specific rules, like relics and stratagems. I was thinking of converting some Nurgle Knights, but I don't want to go though all the effort just so the only special thing I can do is danger squirts.
The previous book had a specific relic for each god. Khorne's turned off invuls(for both sides) in combat once per game, Tzeentch made the Knight a Psyker with Smite, Nurgle rebounded MW on a 4+ if you passed saves in melee, Slaanesh added 1 to Advance and Charge rolls as well as ASF.
bmsattler wrote: Imperial Knights already have more datasheets than say Harlequins and possibly Grey Knights. What Knights lack is the ability to play the secondary game and durability. Those are easily fixed with better rules, and I'm pretty excited about what I've seen so far!
TBF a lot of those datasheets are just artificially splitting weapon options on what is really the same unit.
IMO, make each chassis it's own (full page) dataslate with all of the options interchangeable. For that matter, split the equipment into intuitive left-arm/right-arm categories instead of the weird listing they have now. Leave the differentiation of units for the little guys.
Kanluwen wrote: Treating this as a general Knights thread, since there's no Loyalist version...
This is feeling a bit disappointing from the Loyalist side of things.
Not necessarily because Chaos Knights got new things, but rather because it seems like they're getting to keep the old setup they had which was already fairly flexible(twin Avenger Despoilers, mixing Warglaives and Helverins) and get new things as well.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong or something is done to really delineate the 'locked' variants a bit more on that Loyalist side of things.
'
Ah, this... it smells a bit nostalgic doesn't it?
A bit like... "Well the Space Marines got a new vehicle, but what about Chaos Marines? Where's our spikey version?"
I think you'll be alright. It took time for Space Marines and Chaos Marines to properly diverge and for GW to not just give out spikey versions of everything that Space Marines got. It will take some time for the Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights as well. This is part of the process, where Chaos Knights will get some stuff here, and then later Imperial Knights will get some new things and Chaos Knights will be like "ok but where's our spikey version?" and so on and so forth.
I'm sure you'll get some neat relics and warlord traits that will help make up the difference. Also remember that you've got the Knight Dominus chassis that Chaos doesn't really have a spikey version of, and I'm sure in the time it takes GW to produce that, Imperial Knights will get some new plastic knight to help fill in other gaps.
A bit like... "Well the Space Marines got a new vehicle, but what about Chaos Marines? Where's our spikey version?"
I think you'll be alright. It took time for Space Marines and Chaos Marines to properly diverge and for GW to not just give out spikey versions of everything that Space Marines got. It will take some time for the Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights as well. This is part of the process, where Chaos Knights will get some stuff here, and then later Imperial Knights will get some new things and Chaos Knights will be like "ok but where's our spikey version?" and so on and so forth.
I'm sure you'll get some neat relics and warlord traits that will help make up the difference. Also remember that you've got the Knight Dominus chassis that Chaos doesn't really have a spikey version of, and I'm sure in the time it takes GW to produce that, Imperial Knights will get some new plastic knight to help fill in other gaps.
Bluntly, the issue is that there is a weird design philosophy in play.
Chaos gets the Despoiler--which is a "+1" version of the standard Questoris for the Loyalists. I call it the "+1" version as it lets you go a bit more specialized for the shooty Knights, by letting you double up the arm guns.
Loyalists on the other end get the "named" versions...which are locked profiles, essentially.
I'm totally okay to admit that I'll come off as sour grapes here. It's just weird to me that they didn't come up with spiky named variants that were a 1:1 match for the Loyalist ones.
The new version for Chaos seems to be addressing the differences more than you think though. Remember that the Loyalist Questoris version started off as building two versions, then bumped up to 4 or 5, and then lastly they added a named version(Canis Rex) and the Armiger Babysitter in the Preceptor.
Kanluwen wrote: Treating this as a general Knights thread, since there's no Loyalist version...
This is feeling a bit disappointing from the Loyalist side of things.
Not necessarily because Chaos Knights got new things, but rather because it seems like they're getting to keep the old setup they had which was already fairly flexible(twin Avenger Despoilers, mixing Warglaives and Helverins) and get new things as well.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong or something is done to really delineate the 'locked' variants a bit more on that Loyalist side of things.
'
Ah, this... it smells a bit nostalgic doesn't it?
A bit like... "Well the Space Marines got a new vehicle, but what about Chaos Marines? Where's our spikey version?"
I think you'll be alright. It took time for Space Marines and Chaos Marines to properly diverge and for GW to not just give out spikey versions of everything that Space Marines got. It will take some time for the Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights as well. This is part of the process, where Chaos Knights will get some stuff here, and then later Imperial Knights will get some new things and Chaos Knights will be like "ok but where's our spikey version?" and so on and so forth.
I'm sure you'll get some neat relics and warlord traits that will help make up the difference. Also remember that you've got the Knight Dominus chassis that Chaos doesn't really have a spikey version of, and I'm sure in the time it takes GW to produce that, Imperial Knights will get some new plastic knight to help fill in other gaps.
Just like Marines, the Imperial Knights get better rules - last I checked there was a massive disparity in win rates between Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights.
Kanluwen wrote: Treating this as a general Knights thread, since there's no Loyalist version...
This is feeling a bit disappointing from the Loyalist side of things.
Not necessarily because Chaos Knights got new things, but rather because it seems like they're getting to keep the old setup they had which was already fairly flexible(twin Avenger Despoilers, mixing Warglaives and Helverins) and get new things as well.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong or something is done to really delineate the 'locked' variants a bit more on that Loyalist side of things.
'
Ah, this... it smells a bit nostalgic doesn't it?
A bit like... "Well the Space Marines got a new vehicle, but what about Chaos Marines? Where's our spikey version?"
I think you'll be alright. It took time for Space Marines and Chaos Marines to properly diverge and for GW to not just give out spikey versions of everything that Space Marines got. It will take some time for the Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights as well. This is part of the process, where Chaos Knights will get some stuff here, and then later Imperial Knights will get some new things and Chaos Knights will be like "ok but where's our spikey version?" and so on and so forth.
I'm sure you'll get some neat relics and warlord traits that will help make up the difference. Also remember that you've got the Knight Dominus chassis that Chaos doesn't really have a spikey version of, and I'm sure in the time it takes GW to produce that, Imperial Knights will get some new plastic knight to help fill in other gaps.
Just like Marines, the Imperial Knights get better rules - last I checked there was a massive disparity in win rates between Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights.
Yeah, I'll be more worried about the extra profiles Chaos gets if Chaos actually turns out to be better for one edition.
Kanluwen wrote: Treating this as a general Knights thread, since there's no Loyalist version...
This is feeling a bit disappointing from the Loyalist side of things.
Not necessarily because Chaos Knights got new things, but rather because it seems like they're getting to keep the old setup they had which was already fairly flexible(twin Avenger Despoilers, mixing Warglaives and Helverins) and get new things as well.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong or something is done to really delineate the 'locked' variants a bit more on that Loyalist side of things.
'
Ah, this... it smells a bit nostalgic doesn't it?
A bit like... "Well the Space Marines got a new vehicle, but what about Chaos Marines? Where's our spikey version?"
I think you'll be alright. It took time for Space Marines and Chaos Marines to properly diverge and for GW to not just give out spikey versions of everything that Space Marines got. It will take some time for the Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights as well. This is part of the process, where Chaos Knights will get some stuff here, and then later Imperial Knights will get some new things and Chaos Knights will be like "ok but where's our spikey version?" and so on and so forth.
I'm sure you'll get some neat relics and warlord traits that will help make up the difference. Also remember that you've got the Knight Dominus chassis that Chaos doesn't really have a spikey version of, and I'm sure in the time it takes GW to produce that, Imperial Knights will get some new plastic knight to help fill in other gaps.
Just like Marines, the Imperial Knights get better rules - last I checked there was a massive disparity in win rates between Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights.
Yeah, I'll be more worried about the extra profiles Chaos gets if Chaos actually turns out to be better for one edition.
I mean, they're allowed to be better within the confines of appearing balanced. If chaos knights came out at 55% WR and imperial at 48% they're both classed as acceptably balanced.
As others have said, imperial knights will get more stuff at some point, likely next edition. Chaos knights have mostly existed as a rip off of imperial knights where you have to convert every model because they had nothing for a fair while. Let them have 10 minutes in the sun.
Kanluwen wrote: Treating this as a general Knights thread, since there's no Loyalist version...
This is feeling a bit disappointing from the Loyalist side of things.
Not necessarily because Chaos Knights got new things, but rather because it seems like they're getting to keep the old setup they had which was already fairly flexible(twin Avenger Despoilers, mixing Warglaives and Helverins) and get new things as well.
Hopefully I'm proven wrong or something is done to really delineate the 'locked' variants a bit more on that Loyalist side of things.
'
Ah, this... it smells a bit nostalgic doesn't it?
A bit like... "Well the Space Marines got a new vehicle, but what about Chaos Marines? Where's our spikey version?"
I think you'll be alright. It took time for Space Marines and Chaos Marines to properly diverge and for GW to not just give out spikey versions of everything that Space Marines got. It will take some time for the Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights as well. This is part of the process, where Chaos Knights will get some stuff here, and then later Imperial Knights will get some new things and Chaos Knights will be like "ok but where's our spikey version?" and so on and so forth.
I'm sure you'll get some neat relics and warlord traits that will help make up the difference. Also remember that you've got the Knight Dominus chassis that Chaos doesn't really have a spikey version of, and I'm sure in the time it takes GW to produce that, Imperial Knights will get some new plastic knight to help fill in other gaps.
Just like Marines, the Imperial Knights get better rules - last I checked there was a massive disparity in win rates between Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights.
Yeah, I'll be more worried about the extra profiles Chaos gets if Chaos actually turns out to be better for one edition.
I mean, they're allowed to be better within the confines of appearing balanced. If chaos knights came out at 55% WR and imperial at 48% they're both classed as acceptably balanced.
As others have said, imperial knights will get more stuff at some point, likely next edition. Chaos knights have mostly existed as a rip off of imperial knights where you have to convert every model because they had nothing for a fair while. Let them have 10 minutes in the sun.
All I'm asking for is to show up at a tourney with Chaos Knights and actually have a shot at winning a game or two.
I went 3-3 at Cherokee open with Chaos Knights. The only game that I had that wasn't close was vs Tau, and I think I messed up my deployment that game. 3x Custodes games and I won 1 and lost 2, but only by 5-10 points.
For me, its the consistency upgrade more than anything that is welcome. No more D6 damage where I roll a 1.
I'm wondering what they are going to do with Stomps now that the melee weapons are getting sweep profiles. My guess is that they will become much less universally good to encourage taking the melee option, which honestly makes sense.
Wow...those are all super duper tame upgrades. Good upgrades, but nothing scary.
That's good. I don't think it would take that much to push Knights over the edge. They need some light touches on the weapons and statlines and then some updated traits/stratagems/anti-soup rules. and they'll probably be very good.
Wow...those are all super duper tame upgrades. Good upgrades, but nothing scary.
Well, "tame" upgrades are better than no upgrades at all. Notice the profile for the Desecrator's Laser Destructor? Look familiar? At least until you get to the damage and AP?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Well, "tame" upgrades are better than no upgrades at all. Notice the profile for the Desecrator's Laser Destructor? Look familiar? At least until you get to the damage and AP?
I do imagine we'll see an ignore invulnerables relic for that or something similar.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Well, "tame" upgrades are better than no upgrades at all. Notice the profile for the Desecrator's Laser Destructor? Look familiar? At least until you get to the damage and AP?
I do imagine we'll see an ignore invulnerables relic for that or something similar.
Wasn't talking about that. Think of other LoWs with older 9th edition rules, that didn't get any upgrades, "tame" or otherwise. Keep trying, you'll get it.
Aren't these weapon updates identical to the ones in the supposedly fake leaked datasheets?
I wasn't able to find them to confirm, but I remember the Reaper Chainsword going to a Strike vs Sweep profile and a couple other details strike me as familiar.
No, they 'leaked' the Castellan, Valiant, and a Warglaive. They are probably fake leaks, but they did not address the Reaper Chainsword. This could be compared to the Plasma Decimator to really put the nail in the coffin though.
Edit: So yeah, leaks are fake. The leak shows 36'' range and damage 3/4 on the plasma, while the official preview says 48'' and damage 2/3.
chaos0xomega wrote: Aren't these weapon updates identical to the ones in the supposedly fake leaked datasheets?
I wasn't able to find them to confirm, but I remember the Reaper Chainsword going to a Strike vs Sweep profile and a couple other details strike me as familiar.
The figures are different. The plasma decimator was 3/4 damage in the leaks and was only one mortal wound per roll of 1.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Wasn't talking about that. Think of other LoWs with older 9th edition rules, that didn't get any upgrades, "tame" or otherwise. Keep trying, you'll get it.
I have a crappy cold and I'm tired so it might take me a few days. My brain is toast.
It would be nice if they do a double-whammy and release some Titanicus stuff to coincide with these Knight codices. A plastic Dominus kit would be pretty cool right now...
Sasori wrote: I'm guessing Favor the Dark Gods is going to be the paid upgrades from the context here as well.
I'm also further speculating that this may mean a digital release or some other kind of release for the previous Warzone Books that are OOP now.
With a tiny bit of luck it'll be buy the nugget you want for £3-4 via the app, but I imagine they'll just sell the whole books rules at full RRP and wonder why they never sell.
bmsattler wrote: For me, its the consistency upgrade more than anything that is welcome. No more D6 damage where I roll a 1.
I'm wondering what they are going to do with Stomps now that the melee weapons are getting sweep profiles. My guess is that they will become much less universally good to encourage taking the melee option, which honestly makes sense.
No real reason to change stomps much (aside from probably making them Damage 2). Just giving the chainsword a strike/sweep option makes them a worthwhile consideration, especially for certain custom House Traits (I personally like using Frenzied Attackers, which doesn't apply to feet).
That laser destructor is looking really, REALLY meaty as as a hard counter to T7 vehicles, especially with the ability to instantly bracket a vehicle with a minimum of 7 or max 9 wounds.
Consistant, quality anti vehicle weaponry has always hamstrung the knights (where combat has been the better choice usually) and I'm hoping the melta weapons get a similar treatment to essentially give Consistant damage with spike possibilities.
Here are some Chaos Knight leaks, as per usual, take with salt.
Chaos Knight Leaks
Army Trait
PfP Like Mechanic. Looks like you chose 1 of 3 categories, and the buff happens. They stack as the game moves on and there'all debuffs to enemies within 12'
-1 Damage on All Big Knights, Maybe on Smaller Knights
Mini-Void Shields on Big Knights. They Ignore Damage the first failed save, up to 2 times. Unsure if this is per phase/per turn
Units/Wargear
Volkite does 3 MWs on 6's
Melee Knights retain 2+ WS Thunderstrike Gaunt is flat 8D and also has a sweep attack at 3 Damage
Wardogs get reroll 1's in melee near a Melee Knight
Havocs are 48' S5 no LOS on Armigers
Wardog Gatling 12 shots Strength 6 Base, Ap -2 D1
Upgrades
Space Wolf like Saga, start at 6+++, goes to 5+++ when you do 15 Damage
Chaos Knight Psychic Tree
WC 6 No Overwatch + Weird Smite
WC6 D3 Mortals, and nearest to target takes 1 MW. 11+ D3 on both
WC6 5+++, Higher cast gives Wardogs within 6' a 6+++
WC6 All Enemies within 12' take a dread test. If failed, take 1 MW.
2 More that were not Caught
Infernal Chart
1 MW for random, D3 for Choice
- +3'
-+1 Wound on a Weapon
- Transhuman
Stratagems:
2CP Roll a D6 for every model you kill in the fight phase, for ever 4+ you gain a Wound back to a Max of 8
The rumored defensive buffs are pretty good, and would let me feel much more comfortable going into Tau and the like.
The Infernal chart losing damage on the weapon buff hurts, as being able to boost damage to take out say a Tau suit per flat-4 shot is very nice. It will depend on where the weapons end up though, as some of those damage boosts are being built into existing weapons.
The Psychic Powers don't really excite me. FnP is ok I guess, and sometimes turning off overwatch is important? I understand that the missing two powers could be the two that really kick things into overdrive.
Wardogs look kinda strong, mass Str-6 shots have been awesome from the lightning locks so far. The +1 to wound from infernal will let them wound just about anything on 4's, and most infantry on 2's.
I mean, that's how void shields currently work on super-heavies that have them, like the Astraeus and such.
If (!) those rumours are genuine for a change, presumably they are describing that kind of mechanic without the mechanic actually being called void shields.
Except astreus void shields have huge difference vs traditional way vs been. Big shots better than hail of shots as 12 damage matters. Traditionally vulcan bolter lot scarier than volcano cannon vs shield(indeed titan would be virtually impossible to kill with single volcano cannon regardless game length)
b) is the person writing these leaks just vaguely remembering void shields as "ignore the first few hits"-type of mechanic or knowledgeable of how void shields work precisely?
If the second,
c) Is he referencing current or past void shield rules?
bmsattler wrote:Will we lose the invuln save once these two proto-void shields go down? That might be an odd side-grade instead of an upgrade if its the case.
No, not according to the leaks. This is an additional layer of defense on top of the Invuln. This is supposedly only on the Dominus class knights though.
Sunny Side Up wrote:I mean, nobody knows?
a) are those leaks legit?
If yes,
b) is the person writing these leaks just vaguely remembering void shields as "ignore the first few hits"-type of mechanic or knowledgeable of how void shields work precisely?
If the second,
c) Is he referencing current or past void shield rules?
Well, I mean I described how the mechanic works in the post per the leaks.
bmsattler wrote:Will we lose the invuln save once these two proto-void shields go down? That might be an odd side-grade instead of an upgrade if its the case.
No, not according to the leaks. This is an additional layer of defense on top of the Invuln. This is supposedly only on the Dominus class knights though.
Thanks Sasori! Triple Dominus for the OP list!
Do these leaks all come from the same source, or did you compile them from a variety of sources?
bmsattler wrote:Will we lose the invuln save once these two proto-void shields go down? That might be an odd side-grade instead of an upgrade if its the case.
No, not according to the leaks. This is an additional layer of defense on top of the Invuln. This is supposedly only on the Dominus class knights though.
Thanks Sasori! Triple Dominus for the OP list!
Do these leaks all come from the same source, or did you compile them from a variety of sources?
These are just one source. I imagine it's someone who got the review codex early.
SamusDrake wrote: It would be nice if they do a double-whammy and release some Titanicus stuff to coincide with these Knight codices. A plastic Dominus kit would be pretty cool right now...
Very much wanted! Alongside with better Armigers, the FW ones are really, really bad.
That's an interesting bit of news. It seems reasonable to believe that the Imperial Knights Freeblades will get something similar, allowing for souping in one of them into say Grey Knights or Death Guard. That's a nice bit of flexibility for building a list.
So, if you take it with Belakor then you keep all the normal knight bonuses, but if you take it with any other Chaos army, you get no detachment bonuses including strats, relics, etc.?
Virules wrote: So, if you take it with Belakor then you keep all the normal knight bonuses, but if you take it with any other Chaos army, you get no detachment bonuses including strats, relics, etc.?
The Be'lakor and Corax crossover is specific to those two factions, kind of like the Metallica/Raven Knight of the Iron Cog. If you take a superheavy aux detachment for one knight and make them Corax, and have them alongside Be'lakor's faction then the Knight gets to be fully Corax even though it is in a superheavy aux detachment. The rule for Dreadblades (and presumably Freeblades on the Imperium side, my speculation only) is different in that it doesn't do anything for the Knight, but it allows the faction the Knight is allied with to act as if it weren't there for their pure army rules.
Virules wrote: So, if you take it with Belakor then you keep all the normal knight bonuses, but if you take it with any other Chaos army, you get no detachment bonuses including strats, relics, etc.?
The Be'lakor and Corax crossover is specific to those two factions, kind of like the Metallica/Raven Knight of the Iron Cog. If you take a superheavy aux detachment for one knight and make them Corax, and have them alongside Be'lakor's faction then the Knight gets to be fully Corax even though it is in a superheavy aux detachment. The rule for Dreadblades (and presumably Freeblades on the Imperium side, my speculation only) is different in that it doesn't do anything for the Knight, but it allows the faction the Knight is allied with to act as if it weren't there for their pure army rules.
Right. You are locked into an AOR and one Chaos Knight house with the Bel'akor Chaos knight. It's much less flexible than the freeblades version.
Virules wrote: So, if you take it with Belakor then you keep all the normal knight bonuses, but if you take it with any other Chaos army, you get no detachment bonuses including strats, relics, etc.?
The Be'lakor and Corax crossover is specific to those two factions, kind of like the Metallica/Raven Knight of the Iron Cog. If you take a superheavy aux detachment for one knight and make them Corax, and have them alongside Be'lakor's faction then the Knight gets to be fully Corax even though it is in a superheavy aux detachment. The rule for Dreadblades (and presumably Freeblades on the Imperium side, my speculation only) is different in that it doesn't do anything for the Knight, but it allows the faction the Knight is allied with to act as if it weren't there for their pure army rules.
Right. You are locked into an AOR and one Chaos Knight house with the Bel'akor Chaos knight. It's much less flexible than the freeblades version.
Is it? Because outside of Belakor, just doing the Dreadblade thing, you lose relics, strats, warlord traits, etc. You gain nothing except the Dreadblade traits (good and bad). With Belakor, you get access to all Chaos Knight strats and all relics/warlord traits/strats for that specific house.
Virules wrote: So, if you take it with Belakor then you keep all the normal knight bonuses, but if you take it with any other Chaos army, you get no detachment bonuses including strats, relics, etc.?
The Be'lakor and Corax crossover is specific to those two factions, kind of like the Metallica/Raven Knight of the Iron Cog. If you take a superheavy aux detachment for one knight and make them Corax, and have them alongside Be'lakor's faction then the Knight gets to be fully Corax even though it is in a superheavy aux detachment. The rule for Dreadblades (and presumably Freeblades on the Imperium side, my speculation only) is different in that it doesn't do anything for the Knight, but it allows the faction the Knight is allied with to act as if it weren't there for their pure army rules.
Right. You are locked into an AOR and one Chaos Knight house with the Bel'akor Chaos knight. It's much less flexible than the freeblades version.
Is it? Because outside of Belakor, just doing the Dreadblade thing, you lose relics, strats, warlord traits, etc. You gain nothing except the Dreadblade traits (good and bad). With Belakor, you get access to all Chaos Knight strats and all relics/warlord traits/strats for that specific house.
Yes? It's an AOR, it's heavily restricted in your list building from the very start. compared to being able to add a knight to any build of DG, CSM and Tsons. You have much more flexibility to build around a knight in those armies than you do with Bel'akor, even if the knight itself has more options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rumor Update:
Thermal Spear: 30" Heavy 2, S9 AP-4 Dd6 (Dd6+2 in half range)
Thermal Cannon: 30" Heavy 2d3 S9 AP-4 Dd6+2 (Dd6+4 in half range)
RFBC: 72" Heavy 2d6 S8 AP-2 flat 3 damage
Helvrins: get an additional AP(!)
All knights lost 2" of movement, except for melee-centric knights
-1 damage is available in melee for a statagem, or access to a Fell Bond (custom household trait) that gives you -1D against S7 or less
There's a House Korvax RELIC that allows you to negate 1 failed saving throw a battle round
There is no -1 damage
There's no "x2 wounds don't count" thing
There is no built-in ++ in melee (edited)
[8:18 PM]
Not gonna lie, that's a disappointing set of rumors for me. Armigers look a lot better than the Questoris options. Losing movement will really hurt, and the Thermal Cannon and RFBC look like a pass for me. This is understanding that I'm not seeing stratagems or other modifiers that may make something good.
I dunno, the thermal cannon seems ok to me, underwhelming perhaps but one of those will avg 7.3 damage/turn before rerolls against most vehicles and monsters at max range, and 9 damage up close. A chaos knight with two of those suckers can remove most vehicles in a single round of shooting. Add a meltagun and a stormspear missile pod for a bit more dakka/killing power and you could potentially be wrecking two targets/turn - and thats befire strats and rerolls.
RFBC is a miss though, will avg 4.6 dmg/turn against T7 3+ sv targetstargets and 2+ vs T8 2+, and vs MEQ its only killing just a but less than 2 marines/turn.
bmsattler wrote: Not gonna lie, that's a disappointing set of rumors for me. Armigers look a lot better than the Questoris options. Losing movement will really hurt, and the Thermal Cannon and RFBC look like a pass for me. This is understanding that I'm not seeing stratagems or other modifiers that may make something good.
The thermal cannon is useful now, and the battle cannon becoming flat 3 damage is amazing. But damage reduction being available only via stratagem and still not getting a real invulnerable save still sucks.
Here is the updated dump with the false rumors removed. Going to update the OP as well:
Chaos Knight Leaks
Army Trait
PfP Like Mechanic. Looks like you chose 1 of 3 categories, and the effect happens. They stack as the game moves on and they are all debuffs to enemies within 12'
All Knights lost -2' of movement, with the exception of the Melee Knights (Rampager)
Dominus Class Knights have a 2+ Save
NO -1 Damage
5++ Only in shooting, NO built in Melee Invuln.
House Traits
Fell Bond (Custom Trait) Ramshackle.
Warlord Traits
Warlord can get a second trait
Units/Wargear
Volkite does 3 MWs on 6's
Melee Knights retain 2+ WS Thunderstrike Gaunt is flat 8D and also has a sweep attack at 3 Damage No more Minus to Hit. Sweeps are X2 Attacks.
Wardogs get reroll 1's in melee near a Melee Knight
Havocs are 48' S5 no LOS on Armigers
Wardog Gatling 12 shots Strength 6 AP -1 1D
Thermal Spear: 30" Heavy 2, S9 AP-4 Dd6 (Dd6+2 in half range)
Thermal Cannon: 30" Heavy 2d3 S9 AP-4 Dd6+2 (Dd6+4 in half range)
Volcano Lance D3 Shots, D6+8 Damage
RFBC: 72" Heavy 2d6 S8 AP-2 flat 3 damage
Helvrins: get an additional AP(!)
Armigers are now all distinct Datasheets.
Upgrades - "Favored of the Gods" Paid points upgrades that is updated based on wounds delivered.
Every Knight can have up to one.
Can get a full 4++ (Useable in melee as well)
Chaos Knight Psychic Tree
WC 6 No Overwatch + Weird Smite
WC6 D3 Mortals, and nearest to target takes 1 MW. 11+ D3 on both
WC6 5+++, Higher cast gives Wardogs within 6' a 6+++
WC6 All Enemies within 12' take a dread test. If failed, take 1 MW.
2 More that were not Caught
Infernal Chart
1 MW for random, D3 for Choice
- +3'
-+1 Wound on a Weapon
- Transhuman
Stratagems:
Heirlooms/Exalted Court down to 1/2 cp.
Rotate now a flat 2CP for all knights
2CP Roll a D6 for every model you kill in the fight phase, for ever 4+ you gain a Wound back to a Max of 8
-1 Damage in Melee
Relics:
HELM OF the Dogs - Wardog only relic +1 attack and all dogs 6' get reroll wound rolls of 1.
House Korvax Relic - Allows you to negate 1 saving throw a battle round.
Chaos Marks
Mark of Nurgle - Machine Spirit Resurgence
Oh, goody... For a moment there I thought Chaos Knights might actually be competitive. I mean, seriously. In an environment that measures effectiveness by how quickly one can kill a Knight, they're going to nerf the only thing that keeps Knights alive?
No more penalty for the Thunderstrike Gauntlet is welcome.
It looks like they saw what relics are popular for the Dominus Knights and just added them into the statlines! (Cawl's Wrath and Ion Bulwark).
Armigers are looking very strong. Access to indirect fire through the Havoc Launcher, reliable number of shots for the Thermal Spear, Helverin Autocannon at AP-2, 12 shot mini-gatling cannon at Str 6, AP-2, and the relic that lets them boost other War Dogs to reroll 1's in combat. I'm going to be building more War Dog arms for a bit to catch up with the new options.
Do you know if the Mark of Nurgle will give the effect of Machine Spirit Resurgent, or access to spend the stratagem on it?
2CP rotate Ion Shields hurts, but we can upgrade a Knight to have it permanently in both shooting and melee, which sounds like a good deal to me. I'm assuming these upgrades have a '1 per army' limit like most of the codexes.
Is Toughness 9 still on the table? I had hoped to see it for Questoris Knights, now I'll settle for Dominus.
Volcano Lance is new. D6+8 Damage will pick up a lot of the new Tyranid monsters very quickly, if we can get past the 4++ they can have with a lower number of shots (d3 for the Volcano).
The Ramshackle household trait is also sounding interesting. We'll have to see what we're giving up to take it.
I haven't seen anything on the Avenger yet. The Armiger Autocannon seems to be the same, with an extra point of AP. Honestly, that sounds amazing to me.
Points:
Castellan 15 points cheaper
Valiant - Same as it is now
Karnivore 140 Points
Warglaives 145
Helverin 155
One of the other New Wardogs will be 155 (Guessing Double shooting loadout)
bmsattler wrote: Helverin's were already 155, and Warglaives went up 10 points from 135.
155 is a good price for the double-gun War Dog though, if that is in fact what it will cost that will be my go-to.
Yeah, I am pretty sure CK is going ot be the Wardog Spam Army at this point.
Helverins with the extra AP though are going to be very good I think.
I'm happy. I used to run three helverins. Now I can slide them back in and they'll be great for picking up Voidweavers and Bananas with a good damage profile and purity break.
cole1114 wrote: I wonder if a unit of war dogs can be a dreadblade unit... if so, definitely gonna have to think about taking some with my night lords.
The Spoiler says Unit, instead of model. I'm hoping so, as that'd be a great fill in on my Tsons.
cole1114 wrote: I wonder if a unit of war dogs can be a dreadblade unit... if so, definitely gonna have to think about taking some with my night lords.
ah wow, i had misread that off the bat and assumed Wardogs were a no-go, but if thats the case yeah a unit of Doggos for my TSons might be the way firward instead of a big chungus knight
You can make everything a Dreadknight, but at least as of the old codex only one Dreadknight could get pacts and damnations. Admittedly this doesn't matter as much for War Dogs, and it looks like they are doing a few War Dog specific relics, but they will still be a little limited.
Of course, three Helverin's are a very good base of fire regardless of their support.
dan2026 wrote: What is the point of the melee Knight that has the Chainsword and the Gauntlet?
Seems kinda redundant.
Higher Base attacks, and likely an exploding 6's style rule in (For, say the Rampager)
You get the x3 sweep attacks with the Chainsword for say, killing Marines and the 3D X2 Gauntlet sweeps for something like Custodes. Swords are also supposed to have higher AP.
Basically your one stop shop for shithousing any potential target you can think of in melee. Gauntlet strike vs superheavies, Chainsword strike vs regular vehicles/monsters, Gauntlet sweep vs heavier infantry, Chainsword sweep vs lighter infantry.
dan2026 wrote: What is the point of the melee Knight that has the Chainsword and the Gauntlet?
Seems kinda redundant.
The way I've been running my Rampager, she hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ (S16!), re-rolls all of that, starts with 6 attacks thanks to her warlord trait, gets ANOTHER attack when she goes below half wounds, doesn't start hitting on 3+ until bottom bracket, gets TWO extra hits on hit rolls of 6, and then gets extra attacks every time she kills a character.
dan2026 wrote: What is the point of the melee Knight that has the Chainsword and the Gauntlet?
Seems kinda redundant.
The way I've been running my Rampager, she hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ (S16!), re-rolls all of that, starts with 6 attacks thanks to her warlord trait, gets ANOTHER attack when she goes below half wounds, doesn't start hitting on 3+ until bottom bracket, gets TWO extra hits on hit rolls of 6, and then gets extra attacks every time she kills a character.
dan2026 wrote: What is the point of the melee Knight that has the Chainsword and the Gauntlet?
Seems kinda redundant.
The way I've been running my Rampager, she hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ (S16!), re-rolls all of that, starts with 6 attacks thanks to her warlord trait, gets ANOTHER attack when she goes below half wounds, doesn't start hitting on 3+ until bottom bracket, gets TWO extra hits on hit rolls of 6, and then gets extra attacks every time she kills a character.
That's the point.
How are getting all this on one rampager?
That's pretty much just a stock House Khomentis Rampager with Knight Diabolus and the Gauntlet of Ascension. Not sure what the second exploding hit is from, mind. You can get more attacks out of it as well if you take Vow of Carnage and mulch some units by stomping on them.
dan2026 wrote: What is the point of the melee Knight that has the Chainsword and the Gauntlet?
Seems kinda redundant.
The way I've been running my Rampager, she hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ (S16!), re-rolls all of that, starts with 6 attacks thanks to her warlord trait, gets ANOTHER attack when she goes below half wounds, doesn't start hitting on 3+ until bottom bracket, gets TWO extra hits on hit rolls of 6, and then gets extra attacks every time she kills a character.
That's the point.
How are getting all this on one rampager?
That's pretty much just a stock House Khomentis Rampager with Knight Diabolus and the Gauntlet of Ascension. Not sure what the second exploding hit is from, mind. You can get more attacks out of it as well if you take Vow of Carnage and mulch some units by stomping on them.
I use a custom House, with Pride-fueled Fury and Frenzied Attackers, which generates extra melee hits on 6's as long as you're not using titanic feet.
Khomentis is awesome for the Dread Hunter WLT, and the encircling hounds stratagem is really good against some opponents. The house trait is alright, protection from mortals in the psychic phase really helps against psychic heavy armies but would be better if it were all mortals. Vextrix with the reroll a hit and a wound each activation is really tempting as an Infernal alternative though.
dan2026 wrote: What is the point of the melee Knight that has the Chainsword and the Gauntlet?
Seems kinda redundant.
The way I've been running my Rampager, she hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ (S16!), re-rolls all of that, starts with 6 attacks thanks to her warlord trait, gets ANOTHER attack when she goes below half wounds, doesn't start hitting on 3+ until bottom bracket, gets TWO extra hits on hit rolls of 6, and then gets extra attacks every time she kills a character.
That's the point.
How are getting all this on one rampager?
That's pretty much just a stock House Khomentis Rampager with Knight Diabolus and the Gauntlet of Ascension. Not sure what the second exploding hit is from, mind. You can get more attacks out of it as well if you take Vow of Carnage and mulch some units by stomping on them.
I was under the impression that you would lose the rampages exploding 6 if take the gauntlet upgrade. As in you don't have the gauntlet that is needed for the exploding 6.
villean wrote: I was under the impression that you would lose the rampages exploding 6 if take the gauntlet upgrade. As in you don't have the gauntlet that is needed for the exploding 6.
It's been FAQ'd that relics that replace the chainsword and/or gauntlet count as the original weapon for the purposes of Frenzied Rampage.
I'm assuming these aren't the complete rules, or the favoured thing for slaanesh will only apply to wardogs given currently the bigger knights can already fall back and charge?
Well, that lines up with the rumors of the two that were given as examples. Guessing Tzeentch is the 5++ to 4++ Invuln Save (works in melee) and Nurgle is the FNP.
The rumor was slightly off with damaged delivered vs models killed, so I'll update that.
This is the most up to date rumor set for anyone that wants to take a look. Really just some minor changes. I'll have to update it to say models killed instead of wounds delivered for the Favor though.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: The Khorne favour being a better Khornate icon is nice ! Also, I guess we can guess from it that the Abominant is base WS 3+ ?
Sasori wrote: Well, that lines up with the rumors of the two that were given as examples. Guessing Tzeentch is the 5++ to 4++ Invuln Save (works in melee) and Nurgle is the FNP.
The rumor was slightly off with damaged delivered vs models killed, so I'll update that.
This is the most up to date rumor set for anyone that wants to take a look. Really just some minor changes. I'll have to update it to say models killed instead of wounds delivered for the Favor though.
Yeah, that is a baffling decision to me. In an IK vs CK brawl, you'll _never_ get favor. I sincerely hope there is a rule that larger models count for more favor. At least 3 for monsters/vehicles and something like 6 for superheavies and knights.
Edit: Also glad to see that GW is still flailing on Undivided being a 'real thing' or not.
I'm guessing that there will be three favors for each of the gods, and three unaligned favors. We know there are 15 total, and they mention you can theme your lance to favor one god.
Edit: Do you think they will cost different points for War Dogs vs. the larger knights?
bmsattler wrote: I'm guessing that there will be three favors for each of the gods, and three unaligned favors. We know there are 15 total, and they mention you can theme your lance to favor one god.
Edit: Do you think they will cost different points for War Dogs vs. the larger knights?
Maybe. They'll also surely do dog/despoiler/tyrant restricted too.
Sasori wrote: Well, that lines up with the rumors of the two that were given as examples. Guessing Tzeentch is the 5++ to 4++ Invuln Save (works in melee) and Nurgle is the FNP.
The rumor was slightly off with damaged delivered vs models killed, so I'll update that.
This is the most up to date rumor set for anyone that wants to take a look. Really just some minor changes. I'll have to update it to say models killed instead of wounds delivered for the Favor though.
Yeah, that is a baffling decision to me. In an IK vs CK brawl, you'll _never_ get favor. I sincerely hope there is a rule that larger models count for more favor. At least 3 for monsters/vehicles and something like 6 for superheavies and knights.
Edit: Also glad to see that GW is still flailing on Undivided being a 'real thing' or not.
That's a good point Quasistellar. I could easily see them having vehicles count as 2 or 5, and titanic counting as 5 or 10. They don't indicate anywhere what goes into the tally on that chart, just that it exists.
According to the leaker, the tally actually does count wounds delt to multi-wound models as part of the tally. I.E. You kill a Custodes model you get 3 points for the Tally.
If that ends up being true, that makes the mechanic much more achievable and much better overall.
The Slannesh fall back and X abilities seem weak at first, but they would be very nice on a War Dog or the Abhorent as it allows fall back and psychic.
Sasori wrote: Well, that lines up with the rumors of the two that were given as examples. Guessing Tzeentch is the 5++ to 4++ Invuln Save (works in melee) and Nurgle is the FNP.
The rumor was slightly off with damaged delivered vs models killed, so I'll update that.
This is the most up to date rumor set for anyone that wants to take a look. Really just some minor changes. I'll have to update it to say models killed instead of wounds delivered for the Favor though.
The Slannesh fall back and X abilities seem weak at first, but they would be very nice on a War Dog or the Abhorent as it allows fall back and psychic.
Yeah, I think this is pretty clearly a case of Warcom getting something not quite right when it doesn't post the full screenshot of the rules text.
You do have to kill the model though to get any tally. I.E. you do 11 wounds to an Armiger, you still are at 0 tally.
I'm going to be honest, that doesn't seem as good as the favor of the dark gods that Chaos Knights get. The holding objectives one is ok, and synergizes well with secondaries like Stranglehold or the Imperial Knights specific secondary. Extra CP is always nice, and the ObSec thing if you go super high is alright. It seems to imply that there will be other ways to gain Honor other than the Pledge, as getting 5-6 at 1 per turn isn't very exciting.
I'm going to be honest, that doesn't seem as good as the favor of the dark gods that Chaos Knights get. The holding objectives one is ok, and synergizes well with secondaries like Stranglehold or the Imperial Knights specific secondary. Extra CP is always nice, and the ObSec thing if you go super high is alright. It seems to imply that there will be other ways to gain Honor other than the Pledge, as getting 5-6 at 1 per turn isn't very exciting.
I don't think this is the equivalent of the favor, this seems like it's the anti-soup rule which is the aura of dreads for CK.
That being said, it also sounds worse than the Auras of dread, since you just pick from 3 categories and the abilities stack overtime.
I'm going to be honest, that doesn't seem as good as the favor of the dark gods that Chaos Knights get. The holding objectives one is ok, and synergizes well with secondaries like Stranglehold or the Imperial Knights specific secondary. Extra CP is always nice, and the ObSec thing if you go super high is alright. It seems to imply that there will be other ways to gain Honor other than the Pledge, as getting 5-6 at 1 per turn isn't very exciting.
Yea, but it also applies to the whole army and I imagine there will be a way to add a point here and there. An extra CP every turn until you get army-wide obsec turn 3 or 4 doesn't sound too bad.
I'm going to be honest, that doesn't seem as good as the favor of the dark gods that Chaos Knights get. The holding objectives one is ok, and synergizes well with secondaries like Stranglehold or the Imperial Knights specific secondary. Extra CP is always nice, and the ObSec thing if you go super high is alright. It seems to imply that there will be other ways to gain Honor other than the Pledge, as getting 5-6 at 1 per turn isn't very exciting.
You get 2 honor per turn as you pick 2 oaths for your army. Each Oath has bonuses and honors associated with them.
If every unit in your army has the IMPERIAL KNIGHTS keyword,* and they’re all from the same Household (or FREEBLADES, who come and go as they please), then when building your army you must swear two different Oaths, chosen from a pool of four.
So basically if you do not dishonor yourself you will reach the army Apex turn 3 and rock on.
Let's you get your honor bonus by turn 3 as well, so even better than just two bonuses.
Very true. They also mention there will be other ways to manipulate Honor outside of the Oaths. I could see Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems, and perhaps even a House trait giving an extra honor to start or something. I wonder if they will have one that allows you to ignore a Troth (bad part loses honor). There's a lot of design space in this mechanic for sure.
Power level
3 Wardogs per Lord of War Choice
14" move Wardogs
Big Knights still have 24 Wounds and a 3+ save
Big Knights are still around 440 points
"bUt wE kNeW tHaT aLrEaDy"
A screenshot of some text doesn't count
'stealing images from the internet' lmao
There's one wardog movement value visible and it ain't 14"
Nothing else on there is of real relevance. Wardogs are already 1-3 per choice, nobody expected knights points to change massively nor their power. Literally you pasted some flavour text and the only useful piece is the attacks and saves on the abominant. Even then the save is hardly surprising other than showing it hasn't changed and wasn't expected to. Stop acting like people are beneath you because you found some barely useful pics.
People are thankful for the increase of information, but there actually has to be some information rather than empty posts of showboating how awesome having a book early is.
To whoever took those. Either GW know who you are regardless of the gakky editing, or they don't and won't care. Or they are GW. In any event, covering the relevant info really doesn't help anyone beyond the owner.
The nice thing is that these do indeed confirm the rumors, nothing conflicting here. Even the names (Though it looks like I didn't put them in the leak) are the same.
Small note, that the Karnivore is a Melee knight, so it didn't lose the -2 inch movement. Expect the other Armiger Variants to move 12'
Hi, if we could all take a step back and be polite and excellent to one another, that'd be great. Also a reminder to kindly not attach any so-called "leaks" directly to your posts, off-site hosting such as imgur or photobucket is fine however.
With that out of the way, I don't suppose a price of the Chaos box has been leaked by any chance? Or will it be in the same price bracket as previous exclusive army deals? Does anybody remember how much those have cost in Euros by any chance?
Ah, who am I kidding? Chances of scoring such a boxed set are slim to nil, they'll sell out in moments anyway.
With that out of the way, I don't suppose a price of the Chaos box has been leaked by any chance? Or will it be in the same price bracket as previous exclusive army deals? Does anybody remember how much those have cost in Euros by any chance?
Ah, who am I kidding? Chances of scoring such a boxed set are slim to nil, they'll sell out in moments anyway.
IIRC the Black Templar set was $200 USD (so around €170), and worked out as getting the codex & cards 'free'.
All the limited edition boxed sets since last summer have had the preorder guarantee, so even if they run out of stock you still get one eventually. Since they started doing that I've noticed stock hangs around a lot longer, perhaps because scalpers aren't bothering so much anymore.
All the limited edition boxed sets since last summer have had the preorder guarantee, so even if they run out of stock you still get one eventually. Since they started doing that I've noticed stock hangs around a lot longer, perhaps because scalpers aren't bothering so much anymore.
I think it's a mix between scalpers not bothering and GW themselves simply producing more.
It took them time to get more production going to match the sudden increase in demand, now it has, they can afford to produce enough.
They likely wouldn't make the guarantee if they thought there was a real chance of it getting called upon - small production runs are a lot more expensive than otherwise, especially for plastic injection kits for whom most of the cost is in the set up.
The expense is the mould cost itself. As it's not destroyed in the process while it certainly costs some to change it's not nearly the biggest expense. GW changes mould they print currently constantly.
kirotheavenger wrote: They likely wouldn't make the guarantee if they thought there was a real chance of it getting called upon - small production runs are a lot more expensive than otherwise, especially for plastic injection kits for whom most of the cost is in the set up.
tneva82 wrote: The expense is the mould cost itself. As it's not destroyed in the process while it certainly costs some to change it's not nearly the biggest expense. GW changes mould they print currently constantly.
The models themselves are standard and all produced in-house, so any under- or over-productions can easily be handled by making more or putting them into the standalone product packaging as regular stock where they'll be sold eventually.
The big cost / risk to GW for sets like these are the custom codexes & packaging that come from external suppliers. These will come with fairly strict minimum order quantities; for example their quote might be something like 1000 boxes at £1.50 each or 500 special edition codexes at £5 each. GW can't just call up the supplier and say that they're 120 army sets short to cover pre-orders, they have to commit to the minimum order and any extra sets that aren't sold means they could lose money.
Of course I'm sure they're making enough profit that throwing away ~300 unused books isn't that big a deal to GW, but there are people thinking about this stuff when planning the initial release.
The text within the article says that if you give an Abominant the Pyrothrone it can then deny the witch three times. I don't see anything in Pyrothrone that would do that, am I just missing it?
So after rereading the article, I'm fairly confident that it is a small misprint. The Abominant can manifest and deny two powers per turn. At the end, they state that the Pyrothrone would let them manifest and deny three. It -would- allow the Abominant to manifest three powers, but deny 2 instead of three. Unless the Tzeench keyword does something to that calculation?
The favor for the Pyrothrone allows a reroll of a psychic test, which sounds like it could be manifesting a power, denying a power, or attempting a psychic action. That's pretty good!
The Spitestorm power seems to last the rest of the game for the tally section? I don't see anything that indicates an end, and it specifically lasts multiple phases. It would be amazing against things like Pink Horrors, Nurgle zombies, or Necron Warriors.
Edit: My bad on Spitestorm. "Until the start of your next psychic phase"
I'm annoyed that I want this chaos knight box so badly. The volkite and scourge and wardog weapons look so epic, and I love the legs on the chaos knights so damn much. I had hoped to avoid buying anything until the new HH box releases. . .
Eh I still might skip it. Still got unpainted backlog. Gotta stay disciplined! XD
I'm curious as to what the delay between the box set and the standard codex will mean for Imperial Knights. I strongly suspect that the IK codex will be released with the standard Chaos codex, leaving a gap between the two factions between the box release and the codex release.
That said, I've got my knights painted so I can run them as either faction as needed, and Chaos looks fun. Hail Be'lakor?
bmsattler wrote: I'm curious as to what the delay between the box set and the standard codex will mean for Imperial Knights. I strongly suspect that the IK codex will be released with the standard Chaos codex, leaving a gap between the two factions between the box release and the codex release.
That said, I've got my knights painted so I can run them as either faction as needed, and Chaos looks fun. Hail Be'lakor?
I'm guessing about a month. It depends if they are going to try to push CSM out before or after HH.
Still not sold on the psyker stuff being(mostly) locked into a mundane weapon loadout. Nothing about a big Volkite and a tentacle arm screams psyker to me.
The mechadendrite arm will almost certainly have a sweep attack profile, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like 4-5 hit rolls per attack. You can improve its WS and attacks by trading in your psycker stuff for Khorne. Plus, other close combat weapons have guns attached to them like the Hekaton Siege Claw on the Styrix/Magaera. There is a tail, which may have its own attack profile.
Lastly, it can apparently take the pterrorshades as a weapon profile, though we don't know what they will do.
I'm not very excited about the rumored profile for the Volkite (thanks for your work there Satori!) but I'm willing to wait and see what else it brings to the table.
Hes not good at melee with 3 attacks, hes not good at shooting with 6 gak shoots and he dont do real dmaage with psychic powers.
If you cast the 5+++ on him in competitive matches he will be ignored for sure, and the 6+++ on wardogs is hard to cast.
I think he's not worth building a list arround him with favours, traits and relics. Better to look for a nother CK. Anyways, I wait for more info
Tentacle Profile arm is X3, Strength 8, AP -2 3D flat.
So it's not a terrible profile, but it doesn't have a strike option.
It does still have the Pterror birds, and a Cast 2/Deny 2 with that FNP power can go a long way. Maybe giving it a good blessing can make having it stick around is good.
Hes not good at melee with 3 attacks, hes not good at shooting with 6 gak shoots and he dont do real dmaage with psychic powers.
If you cast the 5+++ on him in competitive matches he will be ignored for sure, and the 6+++ on wardogs is hard to cast.
I think he's not worth building a list arround him with favours, traits and relics. Better to look for a nother CK. Anyways, I wait for more info
Tentacle Profile arm is X3, Strength 8, AP -2 3D flat.
So it's not a terrible profile, but it doesn't have a strike option.
It does still have the Pterror birds, and a Cast 2/Deny 2 with that FNP power can go a long way. Maybe giving it a good blessing can make having it stick around is good.
You don't need a sweep option when you effectively have 9 attacks (full wounds of course if its attacks degrade
Hes not good at melee with 3 attacks, hes not good at shooting with 6 gak shoots and he dont do real dmaage with psychic powers.
If you cast the 5+++ on him in competitive matches he will be ignored for sure, and the 6+++ on wardogs is hard to cast.
I think he's not worth building a list arround him with favours, traits and relics. Better to look for a nother CK. Anyways, I wait for more info
Tentacle Profile arm is X3, Strength 8, AP -2 3D flat.
So it's not a terrible profile, but it doesn't have a strike option.
It does still have the Pterror birds, and a Cast 2/Deny 2 with that FNP power can go a long way. Maybe giving it a good blessing can make having it stick around is good.
You don't need a sweep option when you effectively have 9 attacks (full wounds of course if its attacks degrade
It doesn't have a Strike option, it's always pretty much a sweep.
Hes not good at melee with 3 attacks, hes not good at shooting with 6 gak shoots and he dont do real dmaage with psychic powers.
If you cast the 5+++ on him in competitive matches he will be ignored for sure, and the 6+++ on wardogs is hard to cast.
I think he's not worth building a list arround him with favours, traits and relics. Better to look for a nother CK. Anyways, I wait for more info
Tentacle Profile arm is X3, Strength 8, AP -2 3D flat.
So it's not a terrible profile, but it doesn't have a strike option.
It does still have the Pterror birds, and a Cast 2/Deny 2 with that FNP power can go a long way. Maybe giving it a good blessing can make having it stick around is good.
The only thing I've seen is that it's a large volume of fire in a short range. No real credibility on this, and it's not from the normal sources for this stuff.
Sasori, I could see them making it similar to the Yncarne where it's a flamer that attacks everything within range. I could also see them making it some 'every model within 3'' takes a wound on a 6+'
Preceptors will know three and cast two teachings out of a list of 6.
Action and move/shoot, awesome and absolutely needed for this army!
The Code Chivalric order can give an Armiger the benefits of a third Oath. It does not get the Pledge -or- the Troth, so you couldn't gain more Honor but you could (for example) fall back and not gain dishonor.
The third one confirms the rumored 6'' aura of exploding 6's to hit for Armigers.
They mention the upgraded reaper chain glaives will get up to 8 hit rolls, linking to the previous article that does not talk about the reaper chain glaive. >.>
Edit: Thwarted! Well played Laughing Man, well played.
Edit the second: The Teachings seem to be locked to <Noble Household> which would preclude Freeblades, right?
I'm eying my 4 Avenger Gatling Cannon and hoping that they get a small boost similar to the other guns. Has there been any rumors on what the Questoris gatling might do?
Wow, those abilities names are contenders for the least relevance for what benefits they actually provide.
Why does 'the folly of mercy' let you perform actions and shoot?
Or 'virtue of courage' let you get extra hits on a 6? I could actually see it, vaguely, if they were swapped. No mercy: extra hits. Courage: defending a position while firing.
Having wrapped up Kingmaker, there was mention of a Knight Valiant using its harpoon as a mace in melee, it might be nothing, a bit of creative writing, or it might be a sneaky preview of what a new Valiant may do come the new codex?
John D Law wrote: Not sure if this has been asked yet. Is the new Abominant knight a psyker? If so then no use by Khorne dedicated houses ☹️
So it is, but the kit comes with all the options to turn it into any of the Chaos variants, apparently. Also, you can use the "Blood Shield" Favored add-on to give it +1 WS and +1 A. Since we know there's other Khorne-related Favors, you can imagine most of them will allow for the same approximate thing.
- Trait
- Relic
- Favours of gods
- Mark of chaos
- Spells (aparently 5+++)
- House
I think they are not making the datasheet very powerful for you to buff the units with those combos. For example, if you can go 5+++ with the spell, 4++ with favour of god, ramshackle with household, T9 with a relic and 2+ with a trait, you can make a despoiler more or less like Mortarion, which isn't bad as we shoot like a rock.
If you, for example, can make 2 posible combinations like this for a 5+++ and 4++ (like the FNP of the favour of god and a 4++ by relic) then you can build 2 despoilers and 6-8 wardogs, which isn't bad for me
- Trait
- Relic
- Favours of gods
- Mark of chaos
- Spells (aparently 5+++)
- House
I think they are not making the datasheet very powerful for you to buff the units with those combos. For example, if you can go 5+++ with the spell, 4++ with favour of god, ramshackle with household, T9 with a relic and 2+ with a trait, you can make a despoiler more or less like Mortarion, which isn't bad as we shoot like a rock.
If you, for example, can make 2 posible combinations like this for a 5+++ and 4++ (like the FNP of the favour of god and a 4++ by relic) then you can build 2 despoilers and 6-8 wardogs, which isn't bad for me
Err, you have to pay for the Favors of the god/Marks. You can get some models with all of this, but it's going to add up quickly.
They're trying to aim at the overpowered combinations for punishing them.
For example, the melee knight (abhorrent level) can be upgraded with advance and charge, it cost more than in armigers and tyrants, because it is a waste in 1 armiger and too risky in a castellan to rush turn 1.
By the way, as far as I understand, they want you to play some big boys, because it is imposible to pay upgrades for 10 wardogs without wasting da points.
Thanks for sharing that with us Sasori! That's really exciting to see.
Slightly disappointed the Avenger Gatling Cannon didn't get a small bump somewhere, but it was the best of the Questoris weapons prior to the updated Codex. It's funny that the Helverin basically has a RFBC that is Str 7 instead of 8. Fewer shots off of one gun, but more off of both.
Twin autocannon are looking a little more tempting at 20 points.
I'm surprised that there are Marks that are more expensive than the Be'lakor mark! I'm guessing that the Putrid Carapace will be a 5+++, but honestly I value no rerolls more.
I'm pretty sure that invalidating people's expensive model conversions wouldn't go over well.
I'm interested to see how the Freeblade/Dreadblade options change in the new codex. I feel like the old Dreadblade pacts were better than the Freeblade boons and I'm hoping that changes.
My basic plan of a Castellan Tyrant, Desecrator, and 6x War Dogs looks like its right on point after a couple of Mark upgrades. This is pleasing!
bmsattler wrote: I'm pretty sure that invalidating people's expensive model conversions wouldn't go over well.
They did it to my Skitarii squads' loadouts, so I have very little sympathy. They did it to my Onager Squadrons, so I have very little sympathy. Y'all can just join me in being salty about it.
Also, lol @ "expensive model conversions". Because having two of the same gun is somehow "expensive model conversions"?
It's just bloody bizarre that they pretend that it is somehow a Chaos-y thing for someone to have put two of the same gun on a Knight suit.
Please don't drive this further off topic with your salt, this thread has been really good about keeping on track.
Back on topic:
I was pretty much on the Tyrant Hypetrain with Wardogs, but now I'm starting to think 3 Abhorrent class, probably a rampager, desecrator and Abombinant and then filling out the rest in Wardogs may be the way to go. Tyrant is super good though, but man, it's a huge chunk of your army.
You know wishing ill for others just because it happened to you isn’t a healthy mentality. Personally I’d celebrate if they started walking back the forced builds regardless of who it’s for. Considering for the tire run imperial knights were always better, I think it’s fine to leave chaos with one thing
I've been running a 500 point Magaera as the standard for a Questoris hull, so my thinking is a little skewed. But I think that a Tyrant is as useful as a Magaera and a War Dog in the right circumstances. A big part of it will be reliant on Stratagems and such. They are already increasing the cost of Marks for a Tyrant, which makes sense but suggests that Stratagems will also cost more like they did with the Raven supplement.
There's also the reduced speed, which will make getting firing angles and touching the right terrain harder. I see a Tyrant as the king of killing big stuff and that's the main reason I look at taking it. Magaera have traditionally struggled against Toughness 8. The new Laser Destructor and Thermal Cannon may have me revisit my opinion on the Tyrant.
Please don't drive this further off topic with your salt, this thread has been really good about keeping on track.
Back on topic:
I was pretty much on the Tyrant Hypetrain with Wardogs, but now I'm starting to think 3 Abhorrent class, probably a rampager, desecrator and Abombinant and then filling out the rest in Wardogs may be the way to go. Tyrant is super good though, but man, it's a huge chunk of your army.
tyrants expensive but i cant pass up the volcano cannon, my local meta makes it almost mandatory as i wont get much else in the army that can kill reliably enough.
Please don't drive this further off topic with your salt, this thread has been really good about keeping on track.
Yeah, and I've been on topic Sasori. The topic is Knights not just Chaos ones unfortunately. There's not enough to have justified a Loyalist thread, hence why I'm even posting in this one to begin with.
It's ridiculous that there's a swathe of new kits added to the Chaos side of things while they can't even throw the Loyalists a bone and add the ability to double-up on weapons or do something special.
The Imperial Knights book should have been released months ago. Not like there's any reason for it to have to sit and wait.
It's ridiculous that there's a swathe of new kits added to the Chaos side of things while they can't even throw the Loyalists a bone and add the ability to double-up on weapons or something.
Imperial Knights are getting a whole slew of rules that are specific to them, including the Chaplain-like abilities for the Preceptor. The Desecrator is rumored not to be getting similar abilities. Honestly right now I'm looking at using my knights as Imperial due to better rules and Secondary options.
Funny to see the melee variant of the war dogs being the cheaper one. Wonder what it means ?
The gap in point for taking a Rampager compared to a Gauntlet + sword Despoiler shrank to 5 points. Wonder how the two compare for a pure melee army now ?
The mini-gatling + melee option looks really enticing to me. If I can take 2x mini-gatlings then that's even better than lightning locks, but I'm not counting on it. Still debating whether a gatling/thermal would be worth it.
It's ridiculous that there's a swathe of new kits added to the Chaos side of things while they can't even throw the Loyalists a bone and add the ability to double-up on weapons or something.
Imperial Knights are getting a whole slew of rules that are specific to them, including the Chaplain-like abilities for the Preceptor. The Desecrator is rumored not to be getting similar abilities.
What's funny is you think the book was held hostage.
The Chaos book hit testing 2 months before the imperial book did. Both wrapped up about the same time. The reason we are getting leaks on chaos is because the box set was sent out to painters for previews, which includes the codex.
Please don't drive this further off topic with your salt, this thread has been really good about keeping on track.
Yeah, and I've been on topic Sasori. The topic is Knights not just Chaos ones unfortunately. There's not enough to have justified a Loyalist thread, hence why I'm even posting in this one to begin with.
It's ridiculous that there's a swathe of new kits added to the Chaos side of things while they can't even throw the Loyalists a bone and add the ability to double-up on weapons or do something special.
The Imperial Knights book should have been released months ago. Not like there's any reason for it to have to sit and wait.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Funny to see the melee variant of the war dogs being the cheaper one. Wonder what it means ?
The gap in point for taking a Rampager compared to a Gauntlet + sword Despoiler shrank to 5 points. Wonder how the two compare for a pure melee army now ?
I don't think you want to take a melee despoiler now. The Rampager is going to be the better option.
In fact, I'm not sure if you want to take a despoiler at all... Those points are pretty hefty, even worse for doubling up...
A Thermal Cannon/Chainsword Despoiler is still 425 if I'm reading the chart right, and that's a good mix of tough shooting and AP-3 melee. You can get three of those and 5 War Dogs. That's pretty tempting to me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, why would taking two guns make you more expensive suddenly? Don't the guns cost points in the first place?
Same logic that has crisis suits costing more if you double/triple up on weapons: Being able to cram that much firepower on one platform is worth the extra expense.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, why would taking two guns make you more expensive suddenly? Don't the guns cost points in the first place?
Same logic that has crisis suits costing more if you double/triple up on weapons: Being able to cram that much firepower on one platform is worth the extra expense.
Not knowing tau how is the pricing structure laid out for the suits?
It's not totally consistent, but generally the Tau weapons cost either an additional +5 or +10 on top of their normal cost when you purchase a second or third of the same gun.
Same logic that has crisis suits costing more if you double/triple up on weapons: Being able to cram that much firepower on one platform is worth the extra expense.
Not knowing tau how is the pricing structure laid out for the suits?
It has a first cost(say, 5 points) then a second cost(ex: +10 points), and then a third cost(ex: +15 points) since suits can take up to 3 of the same item potentially.
Same logic that has crisis suits costing more if you double/triple up on weapons: Being able to cram that much firepower on one platform is worth the extra expense.
Not knowing tau how is the pricing structure laid out for the suits?
It has a first cost(say, 5 points) then a second cost(ex: +10 points), and then a third cost(ex: +15 points) since suits can take up to 3 of the same item potentially.
OK, but then why are the weapons priced as they are? Why is 3 single weapons cheaper/worse than 3 of the same? Or 2 in the knights case?
If a rapid fire battle cannon or w/e they're called now is worth X points, why are 2 if them worth 2X+20? There's no balance or rules reason unless you assume the cost of an individual weapon is wrong.
I believe that the theory is that specialists will be better than generalists, and should therefore cost more points. Ultimately it is the way it is and probably won't change.
How are people looking at the Havoc Launcher option for War Dogs? 5 points seems like a reasonable boost to Str 5 and D6 shots with the option for indirect. I get that indirect took a hit in the update, but A: you're on speedy platforms that have better chances of getting line of sight and B: better to have a crappy shot than no shot at all.
bmsattler wrote: I believe that the theory is that specialists will be better than generalists, and should therefore cost more points. Ultimately it is the way it is and probably won't change.
How are people looking at the Havoc Launcher option for War Dogs? 5 points seems like a reasonable boost to Str 5 and D6 shots with the option for indirect. I get that indirect took a hit in the update, but A: you're on speedy platforms that have better chances of getting line of sight and B: better to have a crappy shot than no shot at all.
It doesn't make sense that two Knights with each a Gatling and Cannon costs less than one Knight with two Gatlings and one with two Cannons.
They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
bmsattler wrote: I believe that the theory is that specialists will be better than generalists, and should therefore cost more points. Ultimately it is the way it is and probably won't change.
How are people looking at the Havoc Launcher option for War Dogs? 5 points seems like a reasonable boost to Str 5 and D6 shots with the option for indirect. I get that indirect took a hit in the update, but A: you're on speedy platforms that have better chances of getting line of sight and B: better to have a crappy shot than no shot at all.
Havoc launchers are cool, but at the same time, they're not really that far off from a heavy stubber.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Yes, that's my assumption as well. Or just take one as a soup option in another faction, where you could have a lot more of those ablative bodies.
Downside to souping one in is that those ablative bodies can't actually ablate to save the Knight. Opportunity cost to not killing them/the knight instead, certainly, but they can't die to save it.
I like your point about limited units Laughing Man, and that raises another point. GW is pushing the 'one knight as an ally' option in a couple different ways, which would benefit more from specialization as you are often taking an ally knight to shore up a weakness in your army. I'm looking at you, Thousand Sons!
also since stratagems are one use only (usually) having a dual weapon knight specialised at anti infantry or anti elite, etc then buffing it with a stratagem and possibly a pshycher buff now could make it wipe out 2 squads easily. altho it never happens like that they still need to balance for an """average"""
bmsattler wrote: I like your point about limited units Laughing Man, and that raises another point. GW is pushing the 'one knight as an ally' option in a couple different ways, which would benefit more from specialization as you are often taking an ally knight to shore up a weakness in your army. I'm looking at you, Thousand Sons!
Dreadblade is unit at least, so you could have up to 3 wardogs.
Same logic that has crisis suits costing more if you double/triple up on weapons: Being able to cram that much firepower on one platform is worth the extra expense.
Not knowing tau how is the pricing structure laid out for the suits?
It has a first cost(say, 5 points) then a second cost(ex: +10 points), and then a third cost(ex: +15 points) since suits can take up to 3 of the same item potentially.
OK, but then why are the weapons priced as they are? Why is 3 single weapons cheaper/worse than 3 of the same? Or 2 in the knights case?
If a rapid fire battle cannon or w/e they're called now is worth X points, why are 2 if them worth 2X+20? There's no balance or rules reason unless you assume the cost of an individual weapon is wrong.
Something like a crisis suit, having all of the same gun means you A. Can invest only in buffs that effect that specific gun, B. Can invest only in the best gun, and C. Can (generally) target units that are weakest to that gun.
For knights...idk why they're doing it. Not like running 6 gatling guns is that much different than 3 gatling guns and 3 battle cannons at 2000pts.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Except, as established, the same amount of firepower on the same amount of bodies costs more depending on how those guns are allocated. Knight AA + Knight BB costs more points than Knight AB + Knight AB, despite identical firing capacity. Specialization is worth something, but on such high point models versatility is often worth as much or more.
I -really- like three Helverin's with a Rubric/Scarab heavy Thousand Sons army. That sounds kind of awesome to me.
I agree that the double-weapon points thing is annoying, but its there. Honestly I'm not seeing the point in complaining here about it. Go with another option and it becomes a non-issue.
Do people think that the War Dog's powerfist option will include a -1 to hit? I ask because the rumors say that the Thunderstrike Gauntlet lost its penalty to hit. I could see them making it closer to a Glaive strike option without the sweep option but hitting a little harder. They have to be giving the Karnivore some buffs, because otherwise it seems just worse than the Chain Glaive + Thermal Spear option.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Except, as established, the same amount of firepower on the same amount of bodies costs more depending on how those guns are allocated. Knight AA + Knight BB costs more points than Knight AB + Knight AB, despite identical firing capacity. Specialization is worth something, but on such high point models versatility is often worth as much or more.
The efficiency tax is meant to cover everything from the simple ability to concentrate firepower (two knights cannot be in the same place), to taking less bodies for the weapons, and maximizing usage of stratagems and upgrades. Only time will tell if 20 points is enough, too much, or too little.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Except, as established, the same amount of firepower on the same amount of bodies costs more depending on how those guns are allocated. Knight AA + Knight BB costs more points than Knight AB + Knight AB, despite identical firing capacity. Specialization is worth something, but on such high point models versatility is often worth as much or more.
The efficiency tax is meant to cover everything from the simple ability to concentrate firepower (two knights cannot be in the same place), to taking less bodies for the weapons, and maximizing usage of stratagems and upgrades. Only time will tell if 20 points is enough, too much, or too little.
There is no concentration of firepower onto less bodies in this instance; is the exact same output from the exact same number of models, but one way costs more.
I am thinking I must be falling through on communicating the concept, maybe someone else can step in to explain?
Communication seems fine, its just being rationalized in a way that doesn't really make sense (concentration of fire just doesn't matter on a handful of big expensive models coupled with the way shooting works in 9th)
Though to be honest, I don't think GW did this for game reasons. I think they did this for their weird 'the army is supposed to look like _this_ ' reason. Like the restrictions on cultists/tzaangors per marine unit or the overpriced grots. In this case, knights are 'supposed' to have gun and CCW or specific, different guns.
NinthMusketeer wrote: There is no concentration of firepower onto less bodies in this instance; is the exact same output from the exact same number of models, but one way costs more.
I am thinking I must be falling through on communicating the concept, maybe someone else can step in to explain?
Because you're assuming that people wouldn't simply use all the same best weapon option available. Just as with battlesuits it prevents skewing into one type of weapon. The points exist to dissuade Knight AA in allied detachments or Knight AA / AA / AA / AA in full knight armies.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Except, as established, the same amount of firepower on the same amount of bodies costs more depending on how those guns are allocated. Knight AA + Knight BB costs more points than Knight AB + Knight AB, despite identical firing capacity. Specialization is worth something, but on such high point models versatility is often worth as much or more.
The efficiency tax is meant to cover everything from the simple ability to concentrate firepower (two knights cannot be in the same place), to taking less bodies for the weapons, and maximizing usage of stratagems and upgrades. Only time will tell if 20 points is enough, too much, or too little.
Two Knights can't be at the same place at once? How small and hard you think Knights are to deploy?
There is a very simple reason to increase cost for doubling up, and thats buffs and stratagem use. Whatever the source of the improvement on the profile, being able to do it 2x is a big difference in damage throughput, far more than only getting the buffs on one of those guns(or melee). Say buffs double your output knight AB1 does x2 damage and knight AB2 does normal damage = 300% total damage. Now knight AA1 gets its output doubled and it becomes Ax2 +Ax2 = 400% total damage output and then you have knight BB whos also potentially able to do the same thing in melee or w/e. If anything considering the power of the weapons were talking about its under costed when your talking about a favor buff, psychic buff and stratagem buff combined and how they are limited to single use each during the same phase/turn/game. Hopefully I explained it so its a bit clearer.
So you think the second Lascannon in a Devastator Squad should cost more than the first?
[EDIT]: Balancing costs on what strats may be used on a unit is a terrible way to balance rules. The cost should reflect the abilities of the weapon. If a strat changes that, then balance the cost of the strat. If other buffs can make the weapon better, then the units with those buffs should have their costs altered to reflect the potential use of said buffs, not the weapons that may gain that buff, or may never gain that buff.
Why are you guys all acting like they don't already do this? Even currently, a single Avenger gatling cannon costs 90 points, while a pair costs 200 - a 20-point premium for doubling up.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So you think the second Lascannon in a Devastator Squad should cost more than the first?
[EDIT]: Balancing costs on what strats may be used on a unit is a terrible way to balance rules. The cost should reflect the abilities of the weapon. If a strat changes that, then balance the cost of the strat. If other buffs can make the weapon better, then the units with those buffs should have their costs altered to reflect the potential use of said buffs, not the weapons that may gain that buff, or may never gain that buff.
I think the math difference on a devastator squad is negligible compared to what were talking about because at max unit size and max loadout your not even close on the return potential. I do agree it's a poor way to balance it as were talking doubling shooting output on a 500+ point model and all the multiplicative buffs that follow for 70-80*ish points, the only way to reasonably balance it is to not allow it in the first place. I heavily suspect its drastically under costed.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Except, as established, the same amount of firepower on the same amount of bodies costs more depending on how those guns are allocated. Knight AA + Knight BB costs more points than Knight AB + Knight AB, despite identical firing capacity. Specialization is worth something, but on such high point models versatility is often worth as much or more.
The efficiency tax is meant to cover everything from the simple ability to concentrate firepower (two knights cannot be in the same place), to taking less bodies for the weapons, and maximizing usage of stratagems and upgrades. Only time will tell if 20 points is enough, too much, or too little.
Two Knights can't be at the same place at once? How small and hard you think Knights are to deploy?
The existence of LOS blocking terrain, not to mention Obscuring Terrain, means that it there are a non-trivial number of instances where Knight A and Knight B cannot fire at target X. If Knight A has 2 of the best weapon for shooting at X, that is a concentration of firepower you don't get when both A & B have 1 of that weapon.
I could go over all sorts of theoretical reasons why 2 of a weapon on a single model is better than that weapon once on two different models. The only real proof I need is the fact that Chaos Knights players rapidly moved to having 2 of the same weapon rather than two different weapons on their Knights. The Proof is in the Pudding, sir.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So you think the second Lascannon in a Devastator Squad should cost more than the first?
GW thinks a good Devastator squad is one with 1 each of a Heavy Bolter, ML, Lascannon, and Plasma Cannon.
Or more aptly, GW thinks a Crisis Suit Squad in which each model has 3 different guns is worse than a Crisis Suit Squad in which each model has 3 of the same gun, and thus the worse squad should cost less than the better one.
I think the biggest reason to be double stacking on a Despoiler, would be not wanting to take a Second despoiler if you only care about the ranged weapon and only that one in particular.
Gadzilla666 wrote: They used to do something similar with Havocs and Devastators back in 3rd/4th. They paid extra for their heavy/ special weapons compared to other units that couldn't take them in the same concentration, like basic CSM, Tacs, and Chosen. It's basically a "specialization tax".
And it made no sense back then either. Make the grunt worth taking to begin with and you'll not have that issue.
Yes, it did, and it had nothing to do with the "grunts". It was a tax on concentrating firepower across less bodies, and in a single unit, which was a strong ability considering the Target Priority rules and lack of splitfire in 4th. What exactly it's supposed to do here, I'm not sure yet.
Same thing: Concentrate more desirable firepower on a single body. The two situations that make that useful are having more ablative bodies to block for it (in multi-model units), or only having to take one model for twice the fire power (in Knights, where you are reasonably likely to take a Despoiler and a shedload of wardogs).
Except, as established, the same amount of firepower on the same amount of bodies costs more depending on how those guns are allocated. Knight AA + Knight BB costs more points than Knight AB + Knight AB, despite identical firing capacity. Specialization is worth something, but on such high point models versatility is often worth as much or more.
The efficiency tax is meant to cover everything from the simple ability to concentrate firepower (two knights cannot be in the same place), to taking less bodies for the weapons, and maximizing usage of stratagems and upgrades. Only time will tell if 20 points is enough, too much, or too little.
Two Knights can't be at the same place at once? How small and hard you think Knights are to deploy?
The existence of LOS blocking terrain, not to mention Obscuring Terrain, means that it there are a non-trivial number of instances where Knight A and Knight B cannot fire at target X. If Knight A has 2 of the best weapon for shooting at X, that is a concentration of firepower you don't get when both A & B have 1 of that weapon.
I could go over all sorts of theoretical reasons why 2 of a weapon on a single model is better than that weapon once on two different models. The only real proof I need is the fact that Chaos Knights players rapidly moved to having 2 of the same weapon rather than two different weapons on their Knights. The Proof is in the Pudding, sir.
They moved to having 2 of the same weapon because the internal balance between weapons is pants making it very evident there is a "best" gun in a lot of circumstances. Even if that were the case here, a 20pt tax on two of the "best" gun isn't going to be relevant in relation to the tax on the "bad" guns. It's just a nonsensical choice. The only reasonable example given was if there's a strat that affects one weapon type as mentioned elsewhere in here, but that's still a poor design choice and again not fair to the other weapons.
Voss wrote: Communication seems fine, its just being rationalized in a way that doesn't really make sense (concentration of fire just doesn't matter on a handful of big expensive models coupled with the way shooting works in 9th)
Well no, the point is that there is no concentration of firepower at all. It very much matters, but it is also wholly absent in this instance.
Though to be honest, I don't think GW did this for game reasons. I think they did this for their weird 'the army is supposed to look like _this_ ' reason. Like the restrictions on cultists/tzaangors per marine unit or the overpriced grots. In this case, knights are 'supposed' to have gun and CCW or specific, different guns.
Yeah, I also suspect this was a major factor. Unfortunate that taking customization away from players is seen as such a priority by GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Why are you guys all acting like they don't already do this? Even currently, a single Avenger gatling cannon costs 90 points, while a pair costs 200 - a 20-point premium for doubling up.
A repeat of the mistake warrants a repeat of the criticism.
Costs for tyrant are bigger than expected, and warglavies are more expensive. They want to cut over the warglavie spam list full rush
Where? Their entry on their own app just lists weapon points with no mention of a dual gun tax.
Edit: after googling, at the onset of 9th, GW just didn't update their app. Would be fun to see what happens if you attended something with a list from their app.
There's also the optimal firing range argument. For the sake of an example, imagine one gun fires at full strength at 72" but another has a max range of 24" with bonus damage in half range.
With the AB/AB loadout, both Knights need to get within 12" to fire at full capacity. With the AA/BB loadout, only one needs to get up close and personal, the other can hold back.
So looking purely from a strategic point of view and not looking at flavour points, the arguments for costing paired weapons more are:
- Strat/buff efficiencies to only use these on the 'optimal' target;
- The improved potential for an allied Knight shoring up gaps in another list;
- The possibility of spamming a single weapon across the army; and
- Firing range / sightline optimisation.
On the other hand, there is a drawback to doubling - it makes it easier for the enemy to focus fire and kill the big problem Knight.
From a purely game balance perspective, is it better to concentrate weapon choices? I'd say generally, yes. Is it worth 20 points? I don't know, but it certainly feels like it might be.
Super bad idea to mix weapons of different profile. Your positioning in the board will be so bad and the deployment and the movement eill be super suboptimal.
bmsattler wrote: I'm pretty sure that invalidating people's expensive model conversions wouldn't go over well.
They did it to my Skitarii squads' loadouts, so I have very little sympathy. They did it to my Onager Squadrons, so I have very little sympathy. Y'all can just join me in being salty about it.
Also, lol @ "expensive model conversions". Because having two of the same gun is somehow "expensive model conversions"?
It's just bloody bizarre that they pretend that it is somehow a Chaos-y thing for someone to have put two of the same gun on a Knight suit.
Taking cutting off your nose to spite your face to a whole new level.
I am actually surprised they didnt just limit the weapon options to what is in the box (like they did to many other units in the 9th edition codexes) and eliminate the option for doubling up the weapons. I imagine the majority (though certainly not all) of players have already magnetized these weapons.
Im 99% certain the only reason they allowed it in the first place was just to make Chaos Knights slightly different than Imperial Knights. With the new kits they have released since then, the armies are getting more differentiated regardless.
20 points is a small price to pay to have both weapons on the same chassis, as compared to 2 different bodies. You benefit from keeping the same range profile. Its nothing new, its the same cost currently.
bmsattler wrote: I'm pretty sure that invalidating people's expensive model conversions wouldn't go over well.
They did it to my Skitarii squads' loadouts, so I have very little sympathy. They did it to my Onager Squadrons, so I have very little sympathy. Y'all can just join me in being salty about it.
Also, lol @ "expensive model conversions". Because having two of the same gun is somehow "expensive model conversions"?
It's just bloody bizarre that they pretend that it is somehow a Chaos-y thing for someone to have put two of the same gun on a Knight suit.
Taking cutting off your nose to spite your face to a whole new level.
Oh oh oh, ask him to ramble about the Skitarii loadouts became what they are because people were loading up on Plasma Calivers on their Rangers! That's a good one.
It's sad that people missed the opportunity to complain when that happened. I guess they got burnt out on how it was a ploy to get people to buy more knights when they were the same cost.
It's sad that people missed the opportunity to complain when that happened. I guess they got burnt out on how it was a ploy to get people to buy more knights when they were the same cost.
Which is also true. I didn't research a single tidbit on Chaos Knights since it was just a ploy to sell another book
bmsattler wrote: I'm pretty sure that invalidating people's expensive model conversions wouldn't go over well.
They did it to my Skitarii squads' loadouts, so I have very little sympathy. They did it to my Onager Squadrons, so I have very little sympathy. Y'all can just join me in being salty about it.
Also, lol @ "expensive model conversions". Because having two of the same gun is somehow "expensive model conversions"?
It's just bloody bizarre that they pretend that it is somehow a Chaos-y thing for someone to have put two of the same gun on a Knight suit.
Taking cutting off your nose to spite your face to a whole new level.
Oh oh oh, ask him to ramble about the Skitarii loadouts became what they are because people were loading up on Plasma Calivers on their Rangers! That's a good one.
I mean I agree it's gak what happened to Skitarii (I hate this trend) - but actively being smug because it's happening to other factions? What is actually accomplished here?
The wargaming community is filled with bitter, spiteful people eager to try and find anything to declare a 'win' - including things that hurt themselves.
I will say now I do not care if the points change is bad. Or well, I care, it's a bit annoying - but I would rather an option be bad rather than invalid.
I mean I agree it's gak what happened to Skitarii (I hate this trend) - but actively being smug because it's happening to other factions? What is actually accomplished here?
Welcome to part of the reason Kan used to be called WrongBadFun.
-1 Damage to Armigers from a command-phase buff on top of options like +1 BS or +1 toughness. They are pushing combined arms -hard- and I can't say I disapprove!
Each class of big Knight also grants a different buff, which can open the list-building phase to a lot more options than spamming Magaeras'. This reminds me of the Tyranids and their unit-based upgrades. I think its an awesome idea. I'm really excited with this reveal!
Edit: Also, the first line is "The new Codex Imperial Knights will be available for preorder very soon." I was expecting it to be a full month out, but based on the quantity of Warcom articles on Knights it may be closer to early May than late May/early June. I understand 'very soon' is subjective and I could be wrong.
Edit 2: They specify that the Preceptor has its own knightly teaching, so it may not stack with the +1 BS that a Crusader can grant.
-1 Damage to Armigers from a command-phase buff on top of options like +1 BS or +1 toughness. They are pushing combined arms -hard- and I can't say I disapprove!
Each class of big Knight also grants a different buff, which can open the list-building phase to a lot more options than spamming Magaeras'. This reminds me of the Tyranids and their unit-based upgrades. I think its an awesome idea. I'm really excited with this reveal!
Edit: Also, the first line is "The new Codex Imperial Knights will be available for preorder very soon." I was expecting it to be a full month out, but based on the quantity of Warcom articles on Knights it may be closer to early May than late May/early June. I understand 'very soon' is subjective and I could be wrong.
-1 Damage to Armigers from a command-phase buff on top of options like +1 BS or +1 toughness. They are pushing combined arms -hard- and I can't say I disapprove!
I don't know how to feel about it, but I do not feel that it is pushing "combined arms", it's just pushing Knights+Armigers when taken as a pure Knight army.
I'd have agreed that they're pushing a combined arms approach if they made it so IK got to take Armigers as effectively a piece of "wargear" for the Questoris or Dominus.
Each class of big Knight also grants a different buff, which can open the list-building phase to a lot more options than spamming Magaeras'. This reminds me of the Tyranids and their unit-based upgrades. I think its an awesome idea. I'm really excited with this reveal!
Like I said, I'd be more excited if they actually made it so these upgrades wouldn't be effectively useless outside of a pure Knight setup. The Knight Preceptor already was a hard piece to justify for gaming unless running pure Knights. It really wouldn't have been a hard ask for even just that one to have been able to take Armigers as part of an aux detachment or something alongside of them.
-1 Damage to Armigers from a command-phase buff on top of options like +1 BS or +1 toughness. They are pushing combined arms -hard- and I can't say I disapprove!
I do. I kept expecting the article to stop, but instead there was yet another layer of bloat. Then another. And another.
That the ended on 'the Gatekeeper' seemed really fitting.
