So i can ask on a 4+ to have my swarmy nids on a 2+ cover? Wow, guess nids are back to the swarmy way and to the old philosophy of "Ignore vehicles and swamp the board" now that effectively we can't hurt anything AV13+ in a decent way.
Who cares about synapse when riptides no longer are attached to buffmanders and your warriors have 2+ cover at all time?
Spoletta wrote: So i can ask on a 4+ to have my swarmy nids on a 2+ cover? Wow, guess nids are back to the swarmy way and to the old philosophy of "Ignore vehicles and swamp the board" now that effectively we can't hurt anything AV13+ in a decent way.
Who cares about synapse when riptides no longer are attached to buffmanders and your warriors have 2+ cover at all time?
Where are you getting the 2+ from? Stealth only grants a +1 bonus. Unless of course warriors have shrouded allready? and also nightfighting is only in effect for 1 turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brometheus wrote: Does anyone have any clue where the Witchfires/Blessings/etc rulebook page is? I can't find it
Someone with the book doing live Q&A - answering alot, seems legit and nice load of information, hoping the Gurus can translate for the rest of us with regards to big sweeping changes!
Spoletta wrote: So i can ask on a 4+ to have my swarmy nids on a 2+ cover? Wow, guess nids are back to the swarmy way and to the old philosophy of "Ignore vehicles and swamp the board" now that effectively we can't hurt anything AV13+ in a decent way.
Who cares about synapse when riptides no longer are attached to buffmanders and your warriors have 2+ cover at all time?
Where are you getting the 2+ from? Stealth only grants a +1 bonus. Unless of course warriors have shrouded allready? and also nightfighting is only in effect for 1 turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brometheus wrote: Does anyone have any clue where the Witchfires/Blessings/etc rulebook page is? I can't find it
So D weapons got a royal nerf. Perhaps a needed one but that leaves some pretty expensive models that are currently way overpriced pointswise (Knight Titans/Shadowsword/Aquilla Strongpoint)
I hope people didn't throw away the Hellhammer parts in their Baneblade kit!
random_man wrote: So D weapons got a royal nerf. Perhaps a needed one but that leaves some pretty expensive models that are currently way overpriced pointswise (Knight Titans/Shadowsword/Aquilla Strongpoint)
I hope people didn't throw away the Hellhammer parts in their Baneblade kit!
Vector Strike wrote: DarkLink (BOLS) did a probability table regarding psychic casting
Expect to see 3 dice for a WC1 power, 6 dice for a WC2, 8 dice for a WC3.
Thanks. This is what i tried to tell all those "OMG psykers will be the new OPness"-screamer since this new system is known. Casting powers got nerfed...a LOT!
1 masterylevel: D6+1 power dice. Average of 4.5 dice.
4.5 dice per warpcharge.
3 masterylevels: D6+3 power dice. Average of 6.5 dice.
2.167 dice per warpcharge.
5 masterylevels: D6+5 power dice. Average of 8.5 dice.
= 1.7 dice per warpcharge
10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice.
= 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
The more psykers you have, the worse they get. Having many mastery levels is very unefficient.
In 6th you are able to succesfully cast most powers, even with 10 psykers in your army. In 7th you will only ever cast very few powers.
Turn is start of your turn, movement, psychic, shooting, assault, end of turn.
Turn still refers to player turn.
True Line of Sight still exists.
Unit coherency is 2" as per normal; 6" vertically.
has MC and multitrackers change for the purpose of shooting at shooting phase or overwatch
The wording is the same "in shooting phase"
Psykers can know more than their mastery level of powers ONLY if stated otherwise. Otherwise number is as per mastery level.
What are the basic rules for casting psychic powers? (Is it 4+ per die and need "successes" equal to the spell's WC, as rumored?) Is there any limit on power dice or dispel dice per turn?
4+ per die; need X successes where X is WC level
D6+masterys for power; D6 for dispel (each D6 is =)
How do Snap Shots function?
BS1
Can units consolidate into new combats? If so, how exactly does it work?
No
Psychic focus – generate all powers from one discipline (even one power); gain primars. If you gain another power from another discipline, lose psychic focus. Powers not part of a discipline do not count against this.
Chaos psychic focus – mark of chaos or being a daemon of a particular chaos god = auto primaris of that god in addition to others.
Powers generated beofre game and done openly. YOu choose the order generated.
Same as before – choose a discipline, roll a D6.
Generating warp charges – player turn rolls a D6; each player gains D6 warp charges. Player turn adds all mastery levels of psychic units (this includes!!!!!!! psychic pilot and brotherhood of psykers).
Attempt to manifest psychic powers until warp charge pool is 0. Cannot ATTEMPT to manifest same power twice.
Delcare a target and make a psy test followed by a deny the witch.
two or more 6s = perils.
Cannot psy power target a unit in a transport.
Taking psy test – declare how many warp charges you are spending and then remove from pool. Roll a number of D6 equal to points expended and for each 4+, you get one Warp charge point. If total is greater than or equal to the cost for the power, the psy test is successful.
Deny the witch is essentially the same (6+, +1 for being a psyker, +1 for higher mastery level, 1+ Adamtin will) but must equal or exceed the number of successful warp charges.
You can nullify blessings and conjurations; same process but without bonuses.
Psy hoods allow the wearer if within 12" to attempt to nullify the power as normal. Can only be used inside a vehicle if against vehicle.
All armies can generate from Daemonolgy except Tyranids. [Zion's Note: And non-psyker armies obviously]
GK can generate Santic as normal but none from Malefic. Other psy on Santic = perils on any doubles.
Daemon rule psykers can manifest Malefic as any other but not from Santic. Other psy = perils on any doubles.
Perils – roll D6; randomly applied for units with brotherhood.
1) ld test; pass = 1 wound/ glance with no saves of any kind; failed – removed from play and unit suffers D6 S6 AP1 hits (wound allocation from psyker
2) 1 wound / glance no save; randomly select one power and power is lost
3) 1 wound / glance no save; if currently psy phase roll D3 – number of warp charges lost from both players pool
4) 1 wound / glance no save
5) Ld test; suffers 1 wound / glance if failed; if passed – no ill effects
6) ld test; fail = 1 wound / glance; pass = 3+ invul, fleshbane, armourbane, smash until next friendly psy phase
weapons are fired individually within unit
BS6+ still works as before
Snap shot BS can be modified but only if rule states can modify snap shot BS
WOund allocation is the same – closest to closest.
25% is still cover percentage needed [Zion's Translation: Models need to be at least 25% obscured to claim cover?]
no changes to weapon types that i can see
Cannot declare charges against unreachable units or units it cannot see.
Overwatch is the same.
2D6 still for charge distance.
-2" for charging through terrain
You CANNOT consolidate into combat. Same as before.
Morale appears the same.
Unit types the same
FMCs:
-Deployment same. CANNOT charge the turn you change flight modes.
-If suffered one or more unsaved wounds during a phase; must take grounding test. 3+ all good, 1-2 as normal.
-You can be grounded and then charge the next turn.
All garg creatures have stomp and unstoppable.
Vehicle movement is the same as is combat speed and cruising speed. Stationary = all weapons. Combat = one plus snap shots; Crusising = all snap
Ordnance firing from vehicle = all others snap shots.
Glancing counts as 1 wound and pen as 2 wounds for combat results
Emarking / disembarking is the same.
Transports bought for units count as their respective FoC
CHANGE – damage results of shaken/stunned/imob/weapon destroyed = Ld test for embarked passengers, if failed can only snap shot
Jink – declare before to hit rolls are made, all models gain a 4+ cover save but can only snap shot (during next shooting phase)
Cannot charge from stationary vehicles
Dozer blades +1 to AV WHEN RAMMING
Wounds from challenge carry over but the challenge remains ongoing until end of combat phase.
USRs:
Acute senses – same
AWill – same
ATSKNF – no more extra 3" on regroug
Assault vehicle – can assult from vehicle unless it arrived from reserve that turn
Armourbane – roll additional D6 for armor pen
Blasts – same with apoc crap thrown in
Blind – failed I; WS/BS1 until end of their next turn
Brotherhood – covered
Bulky / Very / Extremely – 2/3/5 for transport capacity
Barrage – same
Deep Strike – same
Concussive – I1 if hit by this until end of next assault phase
Counter-attack – same
Crusader – 2 dice for run, pick one; +D3 for sweeping advance
Daemon – 5+ invul and fear
D-weapon – 1 = nothing; 2-5 = pen hit with D3 HP; D3 wounds; 6 = pen hit D6+6 HP or wounds – no saves only from 6
EW – immune to instant death
Fear – Ld test; if failed WS1 for remainder of fight sub-phase
Fearless – same
FNP – 5+ same
Fleet – same
Fleshbane – Same
Gets Hot – same
Force – psy power as discussed
Furious Charge – +1S; no if disorderd charge
Graviation – same as SM book
Hammer of Wrath – models strength
Hatred – same
Haywire – same
H&R – same
Ignores cover – Same
Instant death – same
Independent Characters – WAIT FOR IT - cannot join infiltrate units if it does not have it. thanks for answering half the question. dicks however this to me identifies that an IC can confer it to a unit since they restricted only ICs joining if they do not have it; cannot join MCs Infiltrate – same (as is outflank)
Interceptor – same but nothing to help shooting at ground targets
IWND – same
Jink – discussed already
Lance – vehicle armour values count as max of 12
Master-crafted – same
Mighty Bulwark – same
Melta – says against vehicle but otherwise same (im noting this as armourbane says armor values; not vehicle armour values)
Missile Lock – reroll to hit rolls when one use only weapons; D6" scatter instead of 2D6" for one use only
Monster Hunter – same
Move trhough Cover – not slowed by charging through difficult terrain; Tyranids REJOICE; auto pass dangerous
Night Vision – ignore Night Fight
Pinning – one or more from a weapon once firing unit has finished (one per unit)
Poisoned – same
PotMS – cannot be used if flat out or smoke lauchers used
Precision Shot – same
Preferred Enemy – same
Psy Pilot – discussed
Psyker – discussed
Rage – +2 on charge
Rampage – +D3 in fight subphase if outnumbered in combat; cannot gain if disorderd charge
Relentless – same
Rending – same
Repel the enemy – charge on turn disembarked from building
Sentry Defense System – can auot fire with weapons even if unoocupied
Shred – re-roll failed to wounds
SHrouded – +2 cover
Skilled Rider – +1 cover to Jink, ignore dangerous
SKyfire – normal BS against air; snap against ground
S&P – same
Smash – all attacks AP2 and can choose to replace with 1 Smash attack at double strength and can re-roll armor pen
Sniper – same
Scout – same looks like
Soul Blaze – same
Specialist Weapon – same
Split Fire – no ld check required
Stealth – +1 cover
Strafing run – same
Strikedown – same
Stubborn – Same
Superosnic – same
Swarms – same
Tank Hunters – against vehicles
Templates – looks same
Torrent – same
Twinlined- same
Twohanded – no +1A
Unwiedly – I1 unless MC/Walker
Vector Dance – second pivot
Vector Strike – 1 hit unless FMC or Flyer. AP2 at strength and random allocation. Ignores cover. counts as shooting a weapon but not against a target (i.e. can shoot another waepon at a different target)
Vortex – looks same
Zealout – looks same.
Yes psychic powers are 'nerfed' in the sense they can't cast as many powers. (4 ML2 casters would successfully cast more spells in 6E than in 7E)
But usually when you have that many psykers, it is to make sure you get the 2-3 spells you really want. And you will have plenty of dice to cast those.
coredump wrote: Yes psychic powers are 'nerfed' in the sense they can't cast as many powers. (4 ML2 casters would successfully cast more spells in 6E than in 7E)
But usually when you have that many psykers, it is to make sure you get the 2-3 spells you really want. And you will have plenty of dice to cast those.
Sure, but how many points did you just pay for just those 2-3 spells? Wouldn't it be just better to use those points for more dakka?
As an example:
A 10 man Warlock Jetseer Council costs 110 Meltabombs. (Without Farseer)
You get 10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice = 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
To reliably cast your powers you need 3 dice per power. Thats 3 powers. And you can't try the same power again if failed.
Casting 3 powers is more expensive than fielding 2 fully decked Wave Serpents and one Wraithknight. I know what of those I would buy.
Sure the Jetseer Council only really needs Fortune, Conceal and the Baron to be tough. But now you even have a chance to dispell Fortune. That alone is huge. Same for the Beaststar.
Also: If you peril with a Warlock he dies, the power doesn't go off. And it can't be cast again by another warlock in the same unit. There goes your Conceal.
Thanks. This is what i tried to tell all those "OMG psykers will be the new OPness"-screamer since this new system is known. Casting powers got nerfed...a LOT!
1 masterylevel: D6+1 power dice. Average of 4.5 dice.
4.5 dice per warpcharge.
3 masterylevels: D6+3 power dice. Average of 6.5 dice.
2.167 dice per warpcharge.
5 masterylevels: D6+5 power dice. Average of 8.5 dice.
= 1.7 dice per warpcharge
10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice.
= 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
The more psykers you have, the worse they get. Having many mastery levels is very unefficient.
In 6th you are able to succesfully cast most powers, even with 10 psykers in your army. In 7th you will only ever cast very few powers.
This could seriously impact Tyranids or Demons.
You're doing the analysis wrong. Its more like:
1 Mastery Level = 4.5 Power dice = Can't reliably cast prescience.
3 Mastery Levels = 6.5 Power Dice = Can cast prescience.
This is something we've seen in Fantasy for the last 4+ editions: one Lv4 Wizard being funnelled power dice by 2-3 Lv2 'mana batteries'. You cast less spells than the total that you have, but you definitely end up casting more spells overall...
And on the other hand, denying just got a lot harder as well. The best you can hope for is dispelling a 1 WC power that only managed 1 success. If someone manages to cast a power with 3 successes at you, even rolling 10 dice to deny still has a less than 1/6 chance.
Here's a daemon army, I think something similar to this will be quite competitive:
Kairos
4x Lv3 Heralds
3x 11 Horrors
3x Lv3 Tzeentch Princes
^^ That should be a legal battleforged 1850 army, depending on upgrades. 31 + D6 power dice. Lets say with rolling large numbers, that is manifesting 3x Summoning/Incursion/Possession, 2x Cursed Ground, 1x Sacrifice. Calling it the Daemon Factory (House of Horrors?tm).
Of course this is pretty much the most psyker heavy battleforged army possible (I think 52 warlocks beats it nicely in unbound).
So I think we will have this weird middle ground of 2-4 psykers where you don't get much returns; 1 pskyer provides alright defense; but a full army of psykers like above will cast 4-6 awesome powers per turn.
coredump wrote: Yes psychic powers are 'nerfed' in the sense they can't cast as many powers. (4 ML2 casters would successfully cast more spells in 6E than in 7E)
But usually when you have that many psykers, it is to make sure you get the 2-3 spells you really want. And you will have plenty of dice to cast those.
Sure, but how many points did you just pay for just those 2-3 spells? Wouldn't it be just better to use those points for more dakka?
As an example:
A 10 man Warlock Jetseer Council costs 110 Meltabombs. (Without Farseer)
You get 10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice = 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
To reliably cast your powers you need 3 dice per power. Thats 3 powers. And you can't try the same power again if failed.
Casting 3 powers is more expensive than fielding 2 fully decked Wave Serpents and one Wraithknight. I know what of those I would buy.
Sure the Jetseer Council only really needs Fortune, Conceal and the Baron to be tough. But now you even have a chance to dispell Fortune. That alone is huge. Same for the Beaststar.
You are not taking into account the fact that every turn the council could turn out around 100 points of daemons. and at this point i still have found nothing in this book that stops those daemons from also claiming objectives for you.
A while back we had a screen-cap from the preview that showed each detachment requiring units from the same Faction, and allied detachments requiring units from a different faction.
Do we know if Faction is just the new name for specific army books, or does it refer to the Allies chart breakdown?
coredump wrote: Yes psychic powers are 'nerfed' in the sense they can't cast as many powers. (4 ML2 casters would successfully cast more spells in 6E than in 7E)
But usually when you have that many psykers, it is to make sure you get the 2-3 spells you really want. And you will have plenty of dice to cast those.
Sure, but how many points did you just pay for just those 2-3 spells? Wouldn't it be just better to use those points for more dakka?
As an example:
A 10 man Warlock Jetseer Council costs 110 Meltabombs. (Without Farseer)
You get 10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice = 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
To reliably cast your powers you need 3 dice per power. Thats 3 powers. And you can't try the same power again if failed.
Casting 3 powers is more expensive than fielding 2 fully decked Wave Serpents and one Wraithknight. I know what of those I would buy.
Sure the Jetseer Council only really needs Fortune, Conceal and the Baron to be tough. But now you even have a chance to dispell Fortune. That alone is huge. Same for the Beaststar.
Also: If you peril with a Warlock he dies, the power doesn't go off. And it can't be cast again by another warlock in the same unit. There goes your Conceal.
im looking at the option to stuff as many CSM Sorcs + cultist as i can, compared to the cost of 1ksons a bargain. and more ML... (wait whats NOT a bargain by comparison )
6 dice instead of 2, better power options etc. costs the price of in your scen, 60 MB roughly for 6 +D6 dice repeatable for as many points as you can waste into it, models you have.
are not the warlock/seer councils limited to 0-1 per army? and per dice almost twice the price?
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Shandara wrote: Horrors are ML1 regardless of size aren't they? Unless their special rule translates properly into the new system?
the more horrors per unit the higher the ML, up to 3
Xca|iber wrote: A while back we had a screen-cap from the preview that showed each detachment requiring units from the same Faction, and allied detachments requiring units from a different faction.
Do we know if Faction is just the new name for specific army books, or does it refer to the Allies chart breakdown?
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, Sisters didn't get a codex, they got an errata they had to pay for that dragged the army down an alley and beat it with a nerf bat.
That's... A very cynical view of it. Yes it wasn't on-par with other codexes, but it's still much better than the short, OOPWD codex. And I'm pretty sure it's regarded as similarly or more competetive than the WD codex.
Okay, this is really bad. They changed the damage chart in worst possible way, by adding one more step of Shaken. What this means now is that units which rely on one big shot killing an enemy tank - such as Hammerhead and Vanquisher - are useless now, since their odds of destroying the enemy are dramatically lowered: by 1/3 for Railhead and 1/2 (!) for Vanquisher. There is now simply absolutely no point taking those units anymore since they're unable to perform their primary task. Only reliable way to kill vehicles now is glance them to death, which means spamming even more S7/S8 weapons than before. This was completely wrong way to fix vehicles. Also, they apparently did not change assaulting vehicles at all.
Another disappointing aspect is that USR's have apparently not been fixed at all. There are still all the same stuff which was annoying in 6th, such as Preferred Enemy being way too good, or Hatred being way too weak. Well, it's not like anyone was using Chaplains anymore.
Do we allready know how Conjured Units behave? I couldn't find anything.
- Can they move/cast/shoot/assault the turn they are summoned?
- Do they scatter or can you place them?
- Are they affected by terrain?
- Do Conjured troops have the superscoringrule?
- How do they interact with the rest of the force? (e.g. are Bloodthirsters friendly to your Imperial forces or is it more complicated?)
...which is exactly why them not having access to anything except for Daemonology and Force powers (when they don't even have Force weapons) is a bit of a strange design choice.
In game terms and fluff terms, yes, it is strange. In GW, "we need to sell more models to every player of an army terms", it makes perfect sense.
This is why I say with this, super heavies and D-Weapons becoming standard and, let's not forget, the silliness that Unbound will become that 40k is jumping the shark with this edition - just like WHFB jumped the shark with 8th edition.
Sure, there will be some who like it, but I am willing to bet that there will be far more who do not like that the fluff, structure and sanity of scale has been completely thrown out the window, and it will have more of the effect on 40k that 8th edition had on WHFB.
Seems like the chances to DtW are not so bad after all, at least it seems that WC 1 powers will be quite unreliable (going to be cast with 3 at 87% chance and denied at a 42% chance with the same amount of dices).
Also, conjured demons are not part of the detachment, so i don't think that they are super scoring. Based on the Alliance matrix they could even be not scoring.
Thanks. This is what i tried to tell all those "OMG psykers will be the new OPness"-screamer since this new system is known. Casting powers got nerfed...a LOT!
1 masterylevel: D6+1 power dice. Average of 4.5 dice.
4.5 dice per warpcharge.
3 masterylevels: D6+3 power dice. Average of 6.5 dice.
2.167 dice per warpcharge.
5 masterylevels: D6+5 power dice. Average of 8.5 dice.
= 1.7 dice per warpcharge
10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice.
= 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
The more psykers you have, the worse they get. Having many mastery levels is very unefficient.
In 6th you are able to succesfully cast most powers, even with 10 psykers in your army. In 7th you will only ever cast very few powers.
This could seriously impact Tyranids or Demons.
You're doing the analysis wrong. Its more like:
1 Mastery Level = 4.5 Power dice = Can't reliably cast prescience.
3 Mastery Levels = 6.5 Power Dice = Can cast prescience.
This is something we've seen in Fantasy for the last 4+ editions: one Lv4 Wizard being funnelled power dice by 2-3 Lv2 'mana batteries'. You cast less spells than the total that you have, but you definitely end up casting more spells overall...
And on the other hand, denying just got a lot harder as well. The best you can hope for is dispelling a 1 WC power that only managed 1 success. If someone manages to cast a power with 3 successes at you, even rolling 10 dice to deny still has a less than 1/6 chance.
Here's a daemon army, I think something similar to this will be quite competitive:
Kairos
4x Lv3 Heralds
3x 11 Horrors
3x Lv3 Tzeentch Princes
^^ That should be a legal battleforged 1850 army, depending on upgrades. 31 + D6 power dice. Lets say with rolling large numbers, that is manifesting 3x Summoning/Incursion/Possession, 2x Cursed Ground, 1x Sacrifice. Calling it the Daemon Factory (House of Horrors?tm).
Of course this is pretty much the most psyker heavy battleforged army possible (I think 52 warlocks beats it nicely in unbound).
So I think we will have this weird middle ground of 2-4 psykers where you don't get much returns; 1 pskyer provides alright defense; but a full army of psykers like above will cast 4-6 awesome powers per turn.
The new psychic phase is still a nerf to psychic heavy armies. No matter how you look at it. Sure a mastery level 3 psyker may have good chances to cast prescience. But before he could cast prescience AND two other powers.
A lvl 3 psyker may now cast one WC1 power around the same chance as he could cast three WC1 powers before. That's two less powers.
If you want to reliably cast a WC2 power (prescience) with 5 dice, you have a 81% chance of succes. A LD10 psyker had a 91% chance to cast the power in 6th. That's a 10% difference! You need 6-7 dice now to have around the same chance of success.
With 5 dice you have a 13% (!!!) chance of perils with worse potential results. 6 dice is 19% and your chance at casting a WC2 power is still worse than a ld10 psyker in 6th.
Deny the witch may be very slim on a blessing, but it's there.
So tell me, how in hell is a psychic army not nerfed in 7th? The only boon are the very powerful malefic powers.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing to nerf psyker spam. They are still very efficient in low numbers. Because the D6 roll is worth more with fewer psychers.
ClockworkZion wrote: Yeah, Sisters didn't get a codex, they got an errata they had to pay for that dragged the army down an alley and beat it with a nerf bat.
That's... A very cynical view of it. Yes it wasn't on-par with other codexes, but it's still much better than the short, OOPWD codex. And I'm pretty sure it's regarded as similarly or more competetive than the WD codex.
I could go through unit by unit and explain what's wrong, but to sum up: they nerfed Acts of Faith, they didn't lower points on anything other than the Exorcist (which was a nice touch but largely unneeded) they didn't bother keeping Kyrinov or the Seraphim Superior around and yanked them from the codex. I really don't feel it was better because it didn't address the problems the WD codex had, and in some respects made things worse (nuked Repentia from ever seeing the table at this point).
It's a codex so bad I shelved my army and don't have ANY desire to play them under this book. And I not only played the WD codex for it's entire run but added to my army. Now I just get depressed everytime I look at them. I can't even bring myself to paint them. It's just THAT bad. Hell the codex murdering my fun like it did made me take a step back from 40k and not play anything in nearly a year. I barely even paint and I love painting models.
Like I've said earlier, I'm sitting on the fence on if I'll even play 7th and the way the Sisters were handled was a major factor in that.
Just for fun, here are suggestions I sent into GW back in December for Sisters (link). I'll be tweaking it and resubmitting it for 7th as well as everything else I can think of rules wise to the GWDev team. If anyone has any suggestions of things I should be aware of problem wise with a codex (beyond Wave Serpents, I know that one) PM me. Why am I mailing the stuff in by post? Because it's the only way I really know how make sure the Dev team actually sees it. The FAQs doesn't seem to get the point across so the best I can do is send them a small tome of information and feedback, If they don't like it, fine. But at least I'm communicating my grievances clearly and directly.
Okay, this is really bad. They changed the damage chart in worst possible way, by adding one more step of Shaken. What this means now is that units which rely on one big shot killing an enemy tank - such as Hammerhead and Vanquisher - are useless now, since their odds of destroying the enemy are dramatically lowered: by 1/3 for Railhead and 1/2 (!) for Vanquisher. There is now simply absolutely no point taking those units anymore since they're unable to perform their primary task. Only reliable way to kill vehicles now is glance them to death, which means spamming even more S7/S8 weapons than before. This was completely wrong way to fix vehicles. Also, they apparently did not change assaulting vehicles at all.
Its surprising how such a small change can so significantly change the survivability of vehicles. And as you say, especially for these models whose sole aim was to 1-shot other tanks. Going to need to look into big melta squads or something now, especially with the impending rise of all-Russ armies.
People read far to much into Unbound. Its a 5 line passage in the rule book basically telling you that if you and your opponent agree you may use an unbound army. unbound troop choices aren't even denial units when going against a battle forged army.
Hear, hear. I feel the exact same after twenty years of seeing this happen repeatedly. The only difference now, however, is that GW is almost a one-trick pony (40k) now so they HAVE to keep up this pace even faster with 40k to make up for the absurd business decisions of putting all their eggs in one basket.
Right now with 40k kind of reminds me of just before 8th edition WHFB - and we know what that edition did to WHFB. I have a feeling 7th edition 40k is about to do the same for 40k.
The only thing they had left was the fluff, and that held many, now even that is being thrown out the window for the sake of "sell more models"!
Thanks. This is what i tried to tell all those "OMG psykers will be the new OPness"-screamer since this new system is known. Casting powers got nerfed...a LOT!
1 masterylevel: D6+1 power dice. Average of 4.5 dice.
4.5 dice per warpcharge.
3 masterylevels: D6+3 power dice. Average of 6.5 dice.
2.167 dice per warpcharge.
5 masterylevels: D6+5 power dice. Average of 8.5 dice.
= 1.7 dice per warpcharge
10 masterylevels: D6+10 dice. Average of 13.5 dice.
= 1.35 dice per warpcharge.
The more psykers you have, the worse they get. Having many mastery levels is very unefficient.
In 6th you are able to succesfully cast most powers, even with 10 psykers in your army. In 7th you will only ever cast very few powers.
This could seriously impact Tyranids or Demons.
You're doing the analysis wrong. Its more like:
1 Mastery Level = 4.5 Power dice = Can't reliably cast prescience.
3 Mastery Levels = 6.5 Power Dice = Can cast prescience.
This is something we've seen in Fantasy for the last 4+ editions: one Lv4 Wizard being funnelled power dice by 2-3 Lv2 'mana batteries'. You cast less spells than the total that you have, but you definitely end up casting more spells overall...
And on the other hand, denying just got a lot harder as well. The best you can hope for is dispelling a 1 WC power that only managed 1 success. If someone manages to cast a power with 3 successes at you, even rolling 10 dice to deny still has a less than 1/6 chance.
Here's a daemon army, I think something similar to this will be quite competitive:
Kairos
4x Lv3 Heralds
3x 11 Horrors
3x Lv3 Tzeentch Princes
^^ That should be a legal battleforged 1850 army, depending on upgrades. 31 + D6 power dice. Lets say with rolling large numbers, that is manifesting 3x Summoning/Incursion/Possession, 2x Cursed Ground, 1x Sacrifice. Calling it the Daemon Factory (House of Horrors?tm).
Of course this is pretty much the most psyker heavy battleforged army possible (I think 52 warlocks beats it nicely in unbound).
So I think we will have this weird middle ground of 2-4 psykers where you don't get much returns; 1 pskyer provides alright defense; but a full army of psykers like above will cast 4-6 awesome powers per turn.
The new psychic phase is still a nerf to psychic heavy armies. No matter how you look at it. Sure a mastery level 3 psyker may have good chances to cast prescience. But before he could cast prescience AND two other powers.
A lvl 3 psyker may now cast one WC1 power around the same chance as he could cast three WC1 powers before. That's two less powers.
If you want to reliably cast a WC2 power (prescience) with 5 dice, you have a 81% chance of succes. A LD10 psyker had a 91% chance to cast the power in 6th. That's a 10% difference! You need 6-7 dice now to have around the same chance of success.
With 5 dice you have a 13% (!!!) chance of perils with worse potential results. 6 dice is 19% and your chance at casting a WC2 power is still worse than a ld10 psyker in 6th.
Deny the witch may be very slim on a blessing, but it's there.
So tell me, how in hell is a psychic army not nerfed in 7th? The only boon are the very powerful malefic powers.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing to nerf psyker spam. They are still very efficient in low numbers. Because the D6 roll is worth more with fewer psychers.
Think of it this way instead, an Eldar army built for psychic will get one to two powers off per turn reliably (accounting for dispels, etc.) - which is less total than before but, let's say that power is summoning (which is a Primaris Power). That is 100-200 points of new models PER TURN being added to the table (which is EXACTLY what GW wants from this rule). Over the course of a battle, that is 600-1,200 points of NEW models being added to the game. Now, if dice rolling happens to be hot on a particular night, it will be even worse and, of course, since Chaos Daemons does not suffer from the extra perils, this just entirely changed a Daemons army to be a non-stop unit producing machine.
Oh, and the Sanctic Powers that many thought, until the powers were revealed, would be a counter - is it any surprise it is not? Banishment is a -1 to the invulnerable save roll. Oh boy, that really sounds like it is banishing something.
How anyone can not see this is going to entirely change a standard 40k battle is beyond me. Heck, even the designers at GW admit that Unbound and Daemonic entirely change the game! Yes, you will get off fewer powers than before, but some of those powers (like Summoning and Invisibility) are ridiculously game changing.
Wayshuba wrote: Think of it this way instead, an Eldar army built for psychic will get one to two powers off per turn reliably (accounting for dispels, etc.) - which is less total than before but, let's say that power is summoning (which is a Primaris Power). That is 100-200 points of new models PER TURN being added to the table (which is EXACTLY what GW wants from this rule). Over the course of a battle, that is 600-1,200 points of NEW models being added to the game. Now, if dice rolling happens to be hot on a particular night, it will be even worse and, of course, since Chaos Daemons does not suffer from the extra perils, this just entirely changed a Daemons army to be a non-stop unit producing machine.
Oh, and the Sanctic Powers that many thought, until the powers were revealed, would be a counter - is it any surprise it is not? Banishment is a -1 to the invulnerable save roll. Oh boy, that really sounds like it is banishing something.
How anyone can not see this is going to entirely change a standard 40k battle is beyond me. Yes, you will get off fewer powers than before, but some of those powers (like Summoning and Invisibility) are ridiculously game changing.
This was covered many many pages ago. The Daemon summoning factory is a thing, but it isn't a game breaking thing. The maths for that were done and it didn't seem scary really neither did it seem points efficient. All though id love to play test it and confirm it for sure.
Prescience is the most game changing power we got at the moment (and probably will still be). Re rolling to hit is just that good.
It's going from a LD10 test on any psyker to a WC2 power, meaning that it requires an army wide effort to cast it for non psyk focused armies with a high risk of peril. Also a non dedicated Psyk army will counter it 20% of the times.
Taking Coteaz in your army will no longer mean guaranteed Prescience, if you roll 1 or 2 on your dices that's quite a hard cast.
Having 3 lvl 1 IG psykers will no longer mean 3 presciences around, but maybe 1.
Wayshuba wrote: Think of it this way instead, an Eldar army built for psychic will get one to two powers off per turn reliably (accounting for dispels, etc.) - which is less total than before but, let's say that power is summoning (which is a Primaris Power). That is 100-200 points of new models PER TURN being added to the table (which is EXACTLY what GW wants from this rule). Over the course of a battle, that is 600-1,200 points of NEW models being added to the game. Now, if dice rolling happens to be hot on a particular night, it will be even worse and, of course, since Chaos Daemons does not suffer from the extra perils, this just entirely changed a Daemons army to be a non-stop unit producing machine.
Oh, and the Sanctic Powers that many thought, until the powers were revealed, would be a counter - is it any surprise it is not? Banishment is a -1 to the invulnerable save roll. Oh boy, that really sounds like it is banishing something.
How anyone can not see this is going to entirely change a standard 40k battle is beyond me. Yes, you will get off fewer powers than before, but some of those powers (like Summoning and Invisibility) are ridiculously game changing.
This was covered many many pages ago. The Daemon summoning factory is a thing, but it isn't a game breaking thing. The maths for that were done and it didn't seem scary really neither did it seem points efficient. All though id love to play test it and confirm it for sure.
Yes, it was discussed. But, to your point, until it is played (ala Tau-Eldar alliance of the 6th edition), no one truly knows how game breaking it will be (but heck, if it is, GW is going to sell A LOT of daemon box sets).
As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?
Wayshuba wrote: Yes, it was discussed. But, to your point, until it is played (ala Tau-Eldar alliance of the 6th edition), no one truly knows how game breaking it will be (but heck, if it is, GW is going to sell A LOT of daemon box sets).
As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?
Because you are not going to be able to summon that many extra points in your army when you count things like perils, psychic defense, dispel dice pool etc.. at the end of the day. Your Daemon's are the only guys who are going to reliably cast these powers (perils is brutal for your Eldar) also. We also don't know if these summoned unit's are scoring and how this daemon factory is going to work with the new missions. Still a long way off the sky falling in from this power, I would hold my powder untill the maths is done, the games are tested and the dust settles.
As a Nid player I was ready to be shafted. FMC's and taking CtA allies is pretty nice, still restricted to Codex powers and WL traits, ok see it coming....
But they've been taking many rules and mechanics that make Tyranids cool and distributing for a while. We've seen more MC's being handed to other armies, even worse many have better stats than our supposedly strongest. Now having deathleapers rules , venomthrope rules, and the scoring rules from the skyblight dataslate have been handed out on different tables / down right in the basic rules with other unique elements which were just dropped (Dooooooooom)....
I can live with bad balance, bad power level, but this? ; ___ ;.
Wayshuba wrote: Yes, it was discussed. But, to your point, until it is played (ala Tau-Eldar alliance of the 6th edition), no one truly knows how game breaking it will be (but heck, if it is, GW is going to sell A LOT of daemon box sets).
As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?
Because you are not going to be able to summon that many extra points in your army when you count things like perils, psychic defense, dispel dice pool etc.. at the end of the day. Your Daemon's are the only guys who are going to reliably cast these powers (perils is brutal for your Eldar) also. We also don't know if these summoned unit's are scoring and how this daemon factory is going to work with the new missions. Still a long way off the sky falling in from this power, I would hold my powder untill the maths is done, the games are tested and the dust settles.
If it works like fantasy, you in fact will be able to summon that many in a battle, accounting for dispels, etc. Psychic defense/Deny the Witch does nothing since the summoning does not target a model. Secondly, the Perils is not very effective against the Eldar when you have a Ghosthelm (thereby preventing the wound) and you have a ton of Warlocks to act as mana batteries for the high level psychers.
Less than a week ago, before the full powers were known, many were also saying Santic would balance it. Guess what, Sanctic doesn't do a thing to prevent it. Even "Banishment" only gives a -1 to an IS (doesn't sound like it is banishing anything to me).
One must remember, GW wants you to be able to summon that many during battle. They want it to be game breaking. They want it to throw the power curve out of whack so that others, to keep up, will also have to adapt to that power curve. This is what sells a ton of new models to someone who already owns 5,000 points of a particular army. It has been that way for 20 years with them and every edition. Why does anyone think it will be different THIS time?
Seeming Warp Charges aren't generated on a per-model basis and that they are generated at the start of the psychic phase, no, I doubt just-summoned psykers will have charges.
Demon factory will have many problems, mainly the fact that all those powers are WC 3. You are not going to summon more stuff than i can destroy in a turn, and you will do nothing in the mean time.
The only good power is sacrifice since it's WC 1, but it has it's downsides:
1) It comes after dice generation, so it will not contribute to that phase.
2) It's a fragile as hell model when you get it ML2, 2 guardsman can easily take him out. Worst of all he is conjured after the movement phase, so he can't be put inside a troop. He will NEVER make it to the next turn.
Also, what will you do when an assault army (which will now start appearing) gets on you? You are gonna defend with Tzeenthc heralds (without gifts) and pink horrors (without available dices)?
Wayshuba wrote: As for points efficiency, here is something most are forgetting - you agree to a game of 1,850 points. One side summons an additional 1,200 points during the game. How is one side having 3,050 point versus the other with 1,850 points not efficient?
That doesn't take into account the fact that you need to tie resources up to summon additional forces and those same resources could be used to achieve other things, like killing the enemy or preserving your own forces.
If the same resources you use to summon one unit of a given value could instead be used to either kill an enemy unit of similar value or save an existing unit of similar value, the overall effect is pretty close.
Summoning is only broken if it allows you to call in additional forces that are more effective than what you could destroy or preserve with a similar investment in points and warp charges.
Spoletta wrote: Demon factory will have many problems, mainly the fact that all those powers are WC 3. You are not going to summon more stuff than i can destroy in a turn, and you will do nothing in the mean time.
The only good power is sacrifice since it's WC 1, but it has it's downsides:
1) It comes after dice generation, so it will not contribute to that phase.
2) It's a fragile as hell model when you get it ML2, 2 guardsman can easily take him out. Worst of all he is conjured after the movement phase, so he can't be put inside a troop. He will NEVER make it to the next turn.
Also, what will you do when an assault army (which will now start appearing) gets on you? You are gonna defend with Tzeenthc heralds (without gifts) and pink horrors (without available dices)?
why do you think assault armies will start appearing now? I've seen nothing that has made them any better.
why do you think assault armies will start appearing now? I've seen nothing that has made them any better.
Many small reasons (many gunlines nerfed, prescience less available, new move through cover, new night fighting rules etc...)
One BIG reason. Objectives are deployed before you choose your side of the field, this alone is almost game breaking toward assault armies.
So what 'faction' are summoned daemons part of? Do they count as being from the Daemon faction, thus being Apoc level allies to most armies, or are they treated as part of the same faction as the summoner?
And I'd still like to hear clarification on the scoring status of the transports. Do dedicated transports for troops get 'Objective Secured' in battleforged armies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: [
What I mean by "done" is that I've reached the point where I don't want to be burnt any more.
I guess I feel that way, but I'm lucky in that my favorite army has always, always been Orks. I've never been a strong tournament player, and I've always been a "Collect the models I like" guy.
I can stand all of their stupid practices with the orks,. I do have multiple units of boys and nobs . I'm looking forward to orks just to get new models!
You could have wrote this for me, The boyz rule, also I have some thousand sons on hold ATM.
So, I'm pretty insulated from edition changes and power creep and meta shifts. I don't have a lot of 'good stuff' nor do I have a lot of 'bad stuff'. However, I can't imagine how frustrating this whole thing is for the person with a competitive army or a themed army. "Just start over" seems to be their mantra at GW.
I would just shut up about it if GW was doing great. If I don't like the direction of the game, but sales are great, and your market share is growing, and your stock price is up? Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm just in the minority. When I don't like the direction of the game, and your share price is down, your sales are down, and your market share is shrinking? Maybe I'm onto something.
I really, really don't want to see GW go belly up, but they seem determined to get out of that hole by digging faster.
Couldn't have put it better, me too, Just start over is ok if your the one receiving the money not paying it. So far this edition they have sold me 1 set of tactical cards. The rest is meh, at best.
And I'd still like to hear clarification on the scoring status of the transports. Do dedicated transports for troops get 'Objective Secured' in battleforged armies.
This. I feel that this is the main point that still has to be clarified. This will make the difference between an healthy meta or a double FOC 12x WS spam fest.
Can summoned demons charge the turn they appear? Whipping up 20 bloodletters in front of my opponent and then assaulting with them sounds pretty dangerous...
Run down of how you now cast powers and how you deny them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: So what 'faction' are summoned daemons part of? Do they count as being from the Daemon faction, thus being Apoc level allies to most armies, or are they treated as part of the same faction as the summoner?
And I'd still like to hear clarification on the scoring status of the transports. Do dedicated transports for troops get 'Objective Secured' in battleforged armies.
torgoch wrote: Can summoned demons charge the turn they appear? Whipping up 20 bloodletters in front of my opponent and then assaulting with them sounds pretty dangerous...
Precisely, do we, now, have to kill Drop Pods that arrive near objectives and have the Secured Objectives rules because their unit are a troops?
I read also that Heavy vehicle have some advantage at ramming, how does that works?
Concerning reserve, as it seems the 50% rules is gone, can a full Deathwing army in reserve is now possible or you auto-lose by not having unit on the table?
Devil wrote: Farseer with Spirit Stone can cast Presience with 1WC but my opponnent needs to roll 1 or 2 dices to deny?
To deny you need to equal the number of successes the caster gets.
If he rolls two dice and one gets 4+, you need to roll at least one 6+ to deny, using as many dice as you want
If he rolls two dice and both get 4+, you need to roll at least two 6+ to deny, using as many dice as you want
So let me get this straight, since Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines and Crimson Slaughter are in the same Faction then they go in the same Force Org under Combined Arms? So I could have a Sorceror with wargear from Black Legion and troops from Chaos Space Marines?
Devil wrote: Farseer with Spirit Stone can cast Presience with 1WC but my opponnent needs to roll 1 or 2 dices to deny?
To deny you need to equal the number of successes the caster gets.
If he rolls two dice and one gets 4+, you need to roll at least one 6+ to deny, using as many dice as you want
If he rolls two dice and both get 4+, you need to roll at least two 6+ to deny, using as many dice as you want
The part I like is perils happening before the powers resolve. Players who use their Psykers (warlocks) haphazardly will lose them to the warp instead of summoning tons of daemons.
If you take multiple Allied detachments do they need to be from the same faction as each other? Could I take say Marines with a guard allied detachment and a sisters allied detachment?
In the case of older publications, the faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex title. In the case of supplements, the faction of all the units descibed in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.
Faction rules are under the detachment rules. I think factions is something that will be in new books (And of course affect supplements).
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can have as many allies as you want....
demontalons wrote: So let me get this straight, since Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines and Crimson Slaughter are in the same Faction then they go in the same Force Org under Combined Arms? So I could have a Sorceror with wargear from Black Legion and troops from Chaos Space Marines?
it appears that way, black legion sorcerer, crimson slaughter possessed as troops, cultists (or zombies) data slates, yada yada....
alot to chose from before you start adding in demon allies in landraiders, lulz!
why do you think assault armies will start appearing now? I've seen nothing that has made them any better.
Many small reasons (many gunlines nerfed, prescience less available, new move through cover, new night fighting rules etc...)
One BIG reason. Objectives are deployed before you choose your side of the field, this alone is almost game breaking toward assault armies.
well as long as we don't have any the super gunline players crying beacuse they are not auto win..........
demontalons wrote: So let me get this straight, since Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines and Crimson Slaughter are in the same Faction then they go in the same Force Org under Combined Arms? So I could have a Sorceror with wargear from Black Legion and troops from Chaos Space Marines?
My understanding is that each would be in the same FOC, but require their own detachment. So you couldn't cherry pick a Black Legion Sorcerer and Crimson Slaughter troops to fill a single FOC. You'd need a BLHQ and 2 BL Troops, along with a CSHQ and 2 CS Troops. But both of those would be under the single Combined Arms Force Org.
Honestly that sounds fun as hell. Can run so many chaos hqs now might actually make chaos Marines playable. Or makes certain armies even more fun. Can literally have one HQ per troop now
With the caveat that not everything is known yet, I think most of you are vastly overestimating assault.
Gunlines are still a thing. I never played my Tau with either Eldar or massive amounts of Riptides (usually just one) or a buffmander attached to a Riptide, and even still they are quite effective.
From what I've seen so far, assault is not intrinsically better than it was in 6th. With the (alleged) nerf to FMC and assaulting, will probably see less of those as well.
If anything, it's possible that the Landraider/Storm Raven assault ramps will become more valuable, depending on whether or not people react by bringing more melta.
I will say for tournaments, there are some easy ways to keep the lid on psyker spamming (if it even becomes a problem), just limit the beginning net ML of lists, or disallow the net ML to increase during a game.
Apologies as last night I was in a sleep deprived revision addled state fueled by naught but energy drink fumes, but I think i remember seeing open topped vehicles counting as assault vehicles - does that mean we can assault from say a rhino....
optometris wrote: Apologies as last night I was in a sleep deprived revision addled state fueled by naught but energy drink fumes, but I think i remember seeing open topped vehicles counting as assault vehicles - does that mean we can assault from say a rhino....
Rhino isn't open-topped, so no. But open-topped vehicles counting as assault vehicles is already the case in the current rulebook.
Lobukia wrote: I will say for tournaments, there are some easy ways to keep the lid on psyker spamming (if it even becomes a problem), just limit the beginning net ML of lists, or disallow the net ML to increase during a game.
I also wonder how Grey Knights will work. Isn't every basic troop choice a brotherhood, so effectively a lvl 1 psyker? Meaning a crap ton of dice for the psychic phase?
Lobukia wrote: I will say for tournaments, there are some easy ways to keep the lid on psyker spamming (if it even becomes a problem), just limit the beginning net ML of lists, or disallow the net ML to increase during a game.
Why would you put a cap on it? Per point there are HUGE diminishing returns built into psykers. 25 points per additional mastery level for most, not including initial cost of the actual psyker. Needing 2-3 dice per warp charge to reliably get one off means its going to require a minimum of 50-75 points dedicated per warp charge power. So if you want to get 10 warp charges worth of powers off you are dedicating at a minimum 500-700 points of your army towards that goal, mostly with little to no offensive power.
There is a built in balance to psykers with the D6 roll. I highly doubt psyker spam armies will be very effective.
Grey knights now have to activate their force weapons in the psychic phase which means that they can be denied, but it also will take 2-3 dice to get it off per unit with most units only contributing 1.
Hollismason wrote: It's specifically probably written that way to prevent you from casting spells over and over and over again wtih Brotherhood of Psykers.
But warlocks don't have the brotherhood of psykers rule. It may be targeted at brotherhood of psykers only if that's the case.
A cheesy list you happen to like no longer works like it used to. That's a shame - but not a bad thing for the game as a whole.
Markymark - does a psychic power still go off if the caster perils? Perils and dies?
That's not the point I am making here. It doesn't make sense for one guy to be disallowed to manifest a power because another individual in his squad was denied the same power if they don't have brotherhood of psykers because only 1 guy was manifesting at the time of denial. If they had to manifest the power all together then it would make sense but they don't.
Bless your heart, you think GW writes rules to make sense.....I'm sure they didn't consider all of the ramifications when the rule was written. It may be FAQed, but this is the new GW, so I wouldn't hold my breath for that FAQ anytime soon
Kirby on 3++ or whatever his site is mentioned that psykers in transports can only cast witchfire powers provided there is a fire point. So no maledictions or blessings. Just witchfire while inside.
Can anyone who has the book confirm this? Does this mean that an embarked psyker can't even bless his own unit inside the transport?
Have a question about choosing Daemon psyker powers. Daemons with mark of X get the primeris X power as a freebie, then they choose their other powers. Say I have a level 3 Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. This mean I get Flickering Fire automatically. I then use my three rolls to get 3 Malefic powers. Because I use all three rolls on the Malefic table, does this mean that I get the Malefic primeris for free, or does automatically getting Flickering Fire preclude this?
Guess it all boils down to the exact wording of the rules that give you mark of X premeris and the rule that gives you the free power for using all your dice on a single chart.
You are not considering the main point here: Objectives deployed before choosing side. This means that as an assault player i place 3 of the 6 objectives in the middle of the field and you are forced to go there with your gun line (every turn not just last turn grab) or i win by default. You can't hoard the other 3 objectives, since you don't know where you'll be (or you bet an immediate concede on a 4+).
Super Newb wrote: Kirby on 3++ or whatever his site is mentioned that psykers in transports can only cast witchfire powers provided there is a fire point. So no maledictions or blessings. Just witchfire while inside.
Can anyone who has the book confirm this? Does this mean that an embarked psyker can't even bless his own unit inside the transport?
How does the underlined equate the italics? Pandas eat shoot and leaves, but don't eat, shoot, and leaves. Only casting witchfire from a fire point doesn't necessarily mean Only casting witchfires (of course I've not seen the rules, it might).
It was stated that a psyker in a transport can only cast witch fires, and only if there is a fire point. So no hiding in transports and buffing. Which in all honesty is no big deal as you will most likely be betting out of the transport before anything significant requires buffing.
Run down of how you now cast powers and how you deny them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: So what 'faction' are summoned daemons part of? Do they count as being from the Daemon faction, thus being Apoc level allies to most armies, or are they treated as part of the same faction as the summoner?
And I'd still like to hear clarification on the scoring status of the transports. Do dedicated transports for troops get 'Objective Secured' in battleforged armies.
Already been answered to both questions.
Can someone link where that has been posted? I'm very curious about that question myself.
Super Newb wrote: Kirby on 3++ or whatever his site is mentioned that psykers in transports can only cast witchfire powers provided there is a fire point. So no maledictions or blessings. Just witchfire while inside.
Can anyone who has the book confirm this? Does this mean that an embarked psyker can't even bless his own unit inside the transport?
How does the underlined equate the italics? Pandas eat shoot and leaves, but don't eat, shoot, and leaves. Only casting witchfire from a fire point doesn't necessarily mean Only casting witchfires (of course I've not seen the rules, it might).
Are you pulling my leg? I added the "provided there is a fire point" for clarity in case some bozo thought they could witchfire out of a vehicle with no fire points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: It was stated that a psyker in a transport can only cast witch fires, and only if there is a fire point. So no hiding in transports and buffing. Which in all honesty is no big deal as you will most likely be betting out of the transport before anything significant requires buffing.
I'm wondering if a psyker can buff his own unit inside that transport. It sounds like no, but I am still wondering.
Blessing stuff outside of the transport seems like a big giant no though.
Backlash wrote: So has there been any information on when warp charges are generated? Is it every player turn? Only your turn? Makes a very big difference.
Kirby said per player turn.
Edit - This is exactly what he said:
"STOP - Misread something;
EACH player adds their Mastery Levels each psy phase; so you get D6+ML for dispel as well.
Apologies this was wrong before when I said you only got D6."
Backlash wrote: So has there been any information on when warp charges are generated? Is it every player turn? Only your turn? Makes a very big difference.
You generate charges on your own turn to cast powers with, and again in your opponents turn to deny with. The player whose turn it is rolls a D6 and both players get the same number of charges, plus their total psyker mastery levels.
So my Inquisition deathcult assassins/crusaders/priest squad in land raider crusader might actually see tabletime with coteaz.......Sweeeeeeet throw in a mystic for dat warcharge and go to town.
Unsaved wound caused, the FMC Takes a ground check at end of phase. This is how Kirby from 3++ described it, and he posted proof he has the book.
To anyone here with the BRB. Does move through cover affect difficult terrain checks in the movement phase? Or, will my tyrants and carnifexes be walking 2d6 to get over a crater or bush?
More from 3++ (yes, he has the book, image of it is on that page):
Any change to 2+ rerolls.
No.
In the psychic section do conjured units have a rule saying they don’t score?
No.
Do MC still get cover for a foot in terrain?
No – area terrain no longer exists.
Is fearless the same in close combat or did it revert to 5th?
Same as 6th
Could you enlighten us on desperate allies and scoring. Are DA scoring ? Are tropps from DA super-scoring ?
No restrictions on scoring for any allies. yes they get objective secured.
Allies:
Battle Bros – benefit from warlord trait; ICs can join; "friendly units" for psy powers, abilities, etc.; can use special abilities to repair vehicles; can use modifiers and re-rolls on reserve rolls; can embark on each other's transports
Allies of Con – treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, attacked or targeted; cannot move within 1" of each other; no warlord, no IC joining, and basically none of the above stuff but are impacted by that effect enemy models.
Desperate – same as AOC plus if within 6" roll a D6, on a 1 they do nothing
Come the Apoc – same as Desperate but cannot deploy within 12" of each other.
No restrictions on scoring for any allies. yes they get objective secured.
Warlord Traits:
Warlord traits –
Tactical; 1) while alive, can discard up to 2 active tactical objectives (TO) instead of 1
2) one use only, end of your turn, opponent randomly selects TO and discards
3) generate one additional TO first turn
4) redraw all TO on first turn if you want
5) while alive, re-roll VP awarded for TO 6) +1 VP for objective secured TO by Warlord
Command –
1) 12" use of warlord Ld 2) 12" use of lowest Ld for enemies
3) 12" move through cover
4) +1" for run and charge within 12"
5) 12" bubble of shooting re-roll 1s to hit (suck it tau – this is permanent)
6) same as above but for assault
Personal –
1) Counter attack
2) Furious charge
3) outflank
4) 1VP for characters slain in combat
5) FNP 6) Fearless and IWND
Strategic –
1) stealth ruins + move through cover
2) choose for night attack and all models in your army have night vision
3) warlord + 3 units (non-vehicle) have infiltrate
4) +1 to seize and re-roll reserves if warlord alive
5) -1 to opponents reserves
6) first enemy turn, 3 enemy units take a pinning check
Under psychic powers conjuration is there anything that says conjured units can’t score?
No.
Under psychic powers does it say a unit can only attemp a psychic power once per phase? ie multiple IC can’t atttempt to cast the same power if they are in a unit.
Yes-UNIT
Under vehicles is there anything saying vehicles can’t score?
No.
Objectives deployed before table halves decided.
Who deploys first chooses who goes first or second after deployment.
How about close combat weapons? Power axes, mauls etc…
Same
Can you still move and fire rapid fire at full range?
Yes
Have sweeping advances changed?
No
Does fearless have the old no retreat rule again?
No
Has ATSKNF changed much?
No
Maelstrom of war missions are missions based upon Tactical Objectives.
Also can the "defending" player use his mastery levels to generate "dispel dice"?
No
Normal missions do NOT uses Tactical objectives.
When do you get your cards for Maelstorm missions? Before or after table sides/Deployment?
Beginning of turns.
Roll a D66 – consult table; can never roll the same one twice.
what does glancing hit actually do now?
Take a HP
Was the declaring jink for flyers or all skimmer and bikes. If so then serpent and bikes have lost some shine
Anything with the Jink rule – so skimers, bikse, flyers.
Can fliers still choose to shoot ground targets at regular BS?
Yes – choose skyfire or not.
What about Mixed Wounds and Fast Dice, does it still allow you to roll saves one at a time because there is different saves and/or a character?
Same as before.
What is the strength of the explosion of an open-topped vehicles for the passenger? (Was 3 in 5th ed gone to 4 in 6th ed)
4
Craters = 6+ no matter what; 4+ if GtG in craters.
Do weapons that have the Get Hot USR still cause a loss of HPs on vehicles on a 4+?
Loses HP on a 1,2,3
STOP – Misread something; EACH player adds their Mastery Levels each psy phase; so you get D6+ML for dispel as well. Apologies this was wrong before when I said you only got D6.
Any changes to walkers?
None that i saw
Is moving through difficult terrain in the movement phase 2d6 pick highest (as before) or -2" (as with charging)?
2d6
Does an Open-Topped Vehicle still add +1 to the Vehicle Penetration table? (Hadn't seen it on the VP table part. Asking just in case).
Yes.
"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Pysker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."
Brotherhood and Pilot can manifest unless they have a specific power.
tetrisphreak wrote: Unsaved wound caused, the FMC Takes a ground check at end of phase. This is how Kirby from 3++ described it, and he posted proof he has the book.
To anyone here with the BRB. Does move through cover affect difficult terrain checks in the movement phase? Or, will my tyrants and carnifexes be walking 2d6 to get over a crater or bush?
As per Kirby:
Move trhough Cover – not slowed by charging through difficult terrain; Tyranids REJOICE; auto pass dangerous
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jspyd3rx wrote: Anyone know anything about how chariots have changed? Apparently, rumors are that it's a lot of changes.
tetrisphreak wrote: Unsaved wound caused, the FMC Takes a ground check at end of phase. This is how Kirby from 3++ described it, and he posted proof he has the book.
To anyone here with the BRB. Does move through cover affect difficult terrain checks in the movement phase? Or, will my tyrants and carnifexes be walking 2d6 to get over a crater or bush?
As per Kirby:
Move trhough Cover – not slowed by charging through difficult terrain; Tyranids REJOICE; auto pass dangerous
I was hoping there was more to it.
Oh well at least area terrain is gone so maybe there will be fewer things tripping up the movement phase.
tetrisphreak wrote: Unsaved wound caused, the FMC Takes a ground check at end of phase. This is how Kirby from 3++ described it, and he posted proof he has the book.
To anyone here with the BRB. Does move through cover affect difficult terrain checks in the movement phase? Or, will my tyrants and carnifexes be walking 2d6 to get over a crater or bush?
As per Kirby:
Move trhough Cover – not slowed by charging through difficult terrain; Tyranids REJOICE; auto pass dangerous
I was hoping there was more to it.
Oh well at least area terrain is gone so maybe there will be fewer things tripping up the movement phase.
That's all that was posted so far on it. I assume there was no change and you just roll an extra die (for a total of 3d6) and take the highest in the movement phase like you have for the last two editions.
That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.
You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...
Leth wrote: Not with a 3+ with a re-roll he wont be. Not that I mind TBH. Status quo wont be changing much in regards to dealing with fateweaver.
With the changes to Perils I see Mindstrike Missles being handy.
Or just flyers in general being the best anti-Fateweaver counter.
Also buffing himself and making his save rerollable is less reliable when looking at Psychic Powers as a whole. Sure it's a PITA to deny him, but it's not impossible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: Did they change Rapid Fire? I’m pretty sure they’ve tweaked it in every single edition so far.
These new warlord traits are LUDICROUS. I'm not saying they're bad- I actually think they're all interesting and will significantly effect gameplay, but they're so absurdly out of line with previous book warlord traits-
Give warlord + 3 units infiltrate? Huron Blackheart, you're a joke.
Permanent 12'' re-roll 1s bubble? Tigurius, go home.
rabidguineapig wrote: That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.
You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...
Lootas can ground him reliably thanks to volume of fire.
And a 2+ for anything isn't enough to make something invincible. If that was the case Terminators would be a lot better. And if they fail Grimoire he has his save decreased instead (likewise, the Warp Storm table can screw him over too). Yes, in a perfect scenario, he's hard to deal with, but not impossible. But he's in a codex with lots of random results tables too that can horrible screw him over too.
Colpicklejar wrote: These new warlord traits are LUDICROUS. I'm not saying they're bad- I actually think they're all interesting and will significantly effect gameplay, but they're so absurdly out of line with previous book warlord traits-
Give warlord + 3 units infiltrate? Huron Blackheart, you're a joke.
Permanent 12'' re-roll 1s bubble? Tigurius, go home.
Night Vision!?!
I guess it's GW's response to the BRB warlord traits being 90% useless to a lot of armies in 6th
He doesn't typically need psychic powers to get his insane save. Just another FMC with Grimoire floating around near him. Seems pretty pointless to shoot piddly units at FMCs just to force grounding tests now though, which was typically my Imperial Guard's strategy in the past.
Mindstrikes are blasts and won't hit him in the air so you still have a get a wound through and ground him to do that, though flyers/skyfire are pretty much your only hope.
It's obviously not impossible, it just seems like they removed trying to ground him and kill him as a viable strategy which hurts quite a few armies/builds.
rabidguineapig wrote: He doesn't typically need psychic powers to get his insane save. Just another FMC with Grimoire floating around near him.
Which is random and can actually WORSEN his invul save. Also, prioritize Grimoire if that's the case. The other Daemon won't be as durable and once gone Fateweaver becomes less durable.
You know, good target priority, one of the staples of being a good player?
rabidguineapig wrote: Seems pretty pointless to shoot piddly units at FMCs just to force grounding tests now though, which was typically my Imperial Guard's strategy in the past.
Take Hydras, keep shooting until he dies or falls or both. Seriously, Hydras are cheap enough to take a squadron of 3 and go to town with without screwing a list over.
rabidguineapig wrote: Mindstrikes are blasts and won't hit him in the air so you still have a get a wound through and ground him to do that, though flyers/skyfire are pretty much your only hope.
Fair point there.
rabidguineapig wrote: It's obviously not impossible, it just seems like they removed trying to ground him and kill him as a viable strategy which hurts quite a few armies/builds.
I think people are banking too hard on the Fateweaver only ever being at his best, and never at his worst (or even somewhere in between).
If all unit types can score now, have they changed the 'big guns never tire' and 'scouring' missions?
One of their big differences was that HS/FA units could score in the respective missions if I'm remembering correctly. Seems pointless if everyone can score now anyway.
rabidguineapig wrote: That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.
You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...
Lootas can ground him reliably thanks to volume of fire.
No they can't. They can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding. And he gets to reroll that. Plus Iron Arm is now a fixed +3 to toughness.
Gorechild wrote: If all unit types can score now, have they changed the 'big guns never tire' and 'scouring' missions?
One of their big differences was that HS/FA units could score in the respective missions if I'm remembering correctly. Seems pointless if everyone can score now anyway.
If I were to guess I'd say those missions grant "objective secured" to HS/FA while also granting VPs for killing them.
rabidguineapig wrote: That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.
You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...
Lootas can ground him reliably thanks to volume of fire.
No they can't. They can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding. And he gets to reroll that. Plus Iron Arm is now a fixed +3 to toughness.
Sorry, they can reliably wound him because they fill the sky with more saves than he should normally make. Even with Iron Arm (which is deniable, and has to be rolled on the table to get).
And casting Psychic Powers got a lot less reliable with how it works, and more dangerous as well. You naturally want to throw more dice into the attempt to get them off, but then that can have them backfire horribly because more dice = more chances to perils.
mercury14 wrote: Does smash at least cause a roll on the pen chart? :(
Nothing has been confirmed that rolling in excess of the armour value of your target doesn't let you roll on the Pen chart AFAIK. There was a rumor, but that's it.
Smash is 1 attack at double strength with with a re-roll to armour pen.
tag8833 wrote: [Smash being 1 attack is huge. The pen table needing a 7 is huge. TMCs seem to have taken it hard with the nerf bat. The scary world destroyers are going to have a rough time popping a rhino in close combat.
Those big scary nasty WS3 I2 A3 TMC that can be felled by the MIGHTY lasgun, sure did get balanced, boy, were they far too powerful before.
Sarcasm.
TMC didn't lose their effectiveness against infantry. They are just not able to one shot vehicles just like scatter lasers can't one shot rhinos anymore. Quit crying about your TMC's. The new damage chart effects everyone equally.
It does not. Most armies have access to AP2 shooting. In fact, many armies have AP1 melta. Tyranids don't. They had assault with MCs. MCs that are generally slower than the vehicles they are trying to pop. The only fast MCs are FMCs and they can no long assault after flying. Tyranids got the shaft on wargear options and that was a problem that has become more dire.
See this is where us Tyranid players are looking at this wrong. We're not supposed to look at what's not in OUR codex, but we should see what is in OTHER codices; I mean we can now Forge A Narrative by using the CtA rules. Want Melta: Forge a Narrative by allying your Nids with some Salamanders - that makes sense, right? How about Lances, I'm sure that the Eldar would leve to lend their Lances to a Tyranid force....now that would be Narrative! And if that doesn't do it for you, I'm sure you'll be happy to buy these Gargantuan creatures over here.......
rabidguineapig wrote: He doesn't typically need psychic powers to get his insane save. Just another FMC with Grimoire floating around near him.
Which is random and can actually WORSEN his invul save. Also, prioritize Grimoire if that's the case. The other Daemon won't be as durable and once gone Fateweaver becomes less durable.
You know, good target priority, one of the staples of being a good player?
rabidguineapig wrote: Seems pretty pointless to shoot piddly units at FMCs just to force grounding tests now though, which was typically my Imperial Guard's strategy in the past.
Take Hydras, keep shooting until he dies or falls or both. Seriously, Hydras are cheap enough to take a squadron of 3 and go to town with without screwing a list over.
rabidguineapig wrote: Mindstrikes are blasts and won't hit him in the air so you still have a get a wound through and ground him to do that, though flyers/skyfire are pretty much your only hope.
Fair point there.
rabidguineapig wrote: It's obviously not impossible, it just seems like they removed trying to ground him and kill him as a viable strategy which hurts quite a few armies/builds.
I think people are banking too hard on the Fateweaver only ever being at his best, and never at his worst (or even somewhere in between).
Certainly taking down the grimoire prince should be your first order of business and is the quickest way to make Fatey your , but as long as it's there he has a good chance to be a flying troll machine.
I've also never seen Hydras in my local meta, though obviously everyone's is different. If you don't know what you're facing do you typically take 3 of them in the state they're in with no interceptor? There is a lot of other skyfire though and Vendettas/Flyers in general would be a surefire way to get some wounds on him reliably.
Fateweaver rarely has to be in a vulnerable spot if you don't want him to be (barring a wound getting through, and failing the grounding test which is obviously possible but not super likely if he's buffed). Yeah, he might be less useful for a turn but you still have the option of getting him to safety or off the board.
I really am not trying to say he's always super insanely invincible, just that the new rules are generally beneficial to him and make it near impossible to ground or even wound him when he's at his best. When everything doesn't go his way, you still have the option to move him wherever you want or even off the board for a turn to avoid getting cooked up for a Thanksgiving dinner.
We should probably stop clogging up the thread now though haha, but as a final point I do agree with you that there are plenty of ways to kill him if he's not at his best; but the new rules make him insanely durable when grimoire'd.
I honestly dont see the FMC spam armies that basically required fateweaver to be as big of a thing. Also I just ignore fateweaver most games, he does not actually do much damage and his buffing ability is mediocre.
Especially with the changes to FMC I really dont see it being much of a problem.
Nidzilla will be just fine, you just have to play it differently. No reduced charges for terrain, have the ability to buy lots of cover. Everything is scoring so its easy to play to objectives and just bum rush with a crap ton of monstrous creatures and just see them get through it all. Venomthropes to spice. Flying tyrants are still really good. Ability to take multiple force org charts as long as you get minimum troops. So for every two troops and one HQ you take you get a full org worth of things you can take(so three elites, three heavys, etc)
Yea I am not exactly crying for tyranids right now
Spoletta wrote: Demon factory will have many problems, mainly the fact that all those powers are WC 3. You are not going to summon more stuff than i can destroy in a turn, and you will do nothing in the mean time.
The only good power is sacrifice since it's WC 1, but it has it's downsides:
1) It comes after dice generation, so it will not contribute to that phase.
2) It's a fragile as hell model when you get it ML2, 2 guardsman can easily take him out. Worst of all he is conjured after the movement phase, so he can't be put inside a troop. He will NEVER make it to the next turn.
Also, what will you do when an assault army (which will now start appearing) gets on you? You are gonna defend with Tzeenthc heralds (without gifts) and pink horrors (without available dices)?
While we will have to see once it is in play, I don't agree currently. Summoning is only one aspect of the army. That is not all they do. So, while they are summoning they are using the rest of the army to also pound on yours. Summoning creates the classic war of attrition. You spend you psychic powers on offense or protection while the opponent focuses on summoning. Both your armies are focusing on killing one another but the summoning army continues to call in 100-300 points in new units a turn (depending on the dice, dispels, etc.). Over the course of a six turn game, the summoning army has added 600-1,800 additional points on the table. Meaning, they will win the war of attrition - every single time.
While you are focusing on killing the summoned units, it is firepower not being directed at their core army. So while you may kill the units summoned every turn, it is less of their core army you are killing as a result. In the meantime, all their firepower is always concentrated on your core army. If you don't focus on the summoned units, and instead on their core army, eventually you will have almost another entire army to deal with.
So summoning creates either great meat shields or, if ignored, will in fact become a serious problem once enough of them are in play.
While I am not saying it is the be all end all strategy, I can see how this can get abusive and very fast - especially in a Chaos Daemon army.
Nobody does - it's not a classification of terrain anymore.
However craters offer a 6+ save for standing in them and ruins grant 4+. So there will still be instances of toes-in for a save.
However - vehicles apparently no longer create craters upon exploding, and nothing yet has stated MTC still grants 3d6 when rolling difficult terrain, suggesting it has been lost. It's not all sunshine and roses right now for sure.
Nobody does - it's not a classification of terrain anymore.
However craters offer a 6+ save for standing in them and ruins grant 4+. So there will still be instances of toes-in for a save.
However - vehicles apparently no longer create craters upon exploding, and nothing yet has stated MTC still grants 3d6 when rolling difficult terrain, suggesting it has been lost. It's not all sunshine and roses right now for sure.
There's not area terrain that's a regular 5+ cover save?
Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!
smh
Also, looks like 7th is shaping up to be the "psyker" edition.
Wayshuba wrote: While we will have to see once it is in play, I don't agree currently. Summoning is only one aspect of the army. That is not all they do. So, while they are summoning they are using the rest of the army to also pound on yours. Summoning creates the classic war of attrition. You spend you psychic powers on offense or protection while the opponent focuses on summoning. Both your armies are focusing on killing one another but the summoning army continues to call in 100-300 points in new units a turn (depending on the dice, dispels, etc.). Over the course of a six turn game, the summoning army has added 600-1,800 additional points on the table. Meaning, they will win the war of attrition - every single time.
While you are focusing on killing the summoned units, it is firepower not being directed at their core army. So while you may kill the units summoned every turn, it is less of their core army you are killing as a result. In the meantime, all their firepower is always concentrated on your core army. If you don't focus on the summoned units, and instead on their core army, eventually you will have almost another entire army to deal with.
So summoning creates either great meat shields or, if ignored, will in fact become a serious problem once enough of them are in play.
While I am not saying it is the be all end all strategy, I can see how this can get abusive and very fast - especially in a Chaos Daemon army.
Of course this is all assuming every summoning goes through with no Perils killing off your Psykers, or being denied, or just failing because of how easy it is to fail.
Yes, if dice go well you could easily end up with lots of models, but you're not really likely to. Pluse of you summon more psykers, how are they generating their powers? Last I knew, powers were generated at the start of the game, so unless something is in the rules for summoning that we haven't seen, summoned psykers have no psychic powers. Which means you just need to nuke that one psyker doing the summoning to stop it. Oh and one of the powers causes a wound to summon Heralds (even for Daemons) and the Greater Daemon causes a Perils. So you know, the only one that is "good" is the Summoning one to use, and even then you can focus on removing the Psykers that know it to eliminate the threat.
mercury14 wrote: Can you still cast blessings inside transports?
I asked this earlier today. No one with the book has said you could. But the context was that psykers inside transports can only cast witchfires. Maybe... maybe a psyker can bless his own unit inside a transport but it isn't looking likely right now.
Battle Bros – benefit from warlord trait; ICs can join; "friendly units" for psy powers, abilities, etc.; can use special abilities to repair vehicles; can use modifiers and re-rolls on reserve rolls; can embark on each other's transports
Allies of Con – treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, attacked or targeted; cannot move within 1" of each other; no warlord, no IC joining, and basically none of the above stuff but are impacted by that effect enemy models.
Desperate – same as AOC plus if within 6" roll a D6, on a 1 they do nothing
Come the Apoc – same as Desperate but cannot deploy within 12" of each other.
No restrictions on scoring for any allies. yes they get objective secured.
Also no limit to amount of FoC you can take... so can anyone point out the difference between unbound and bound armies again? You can pretty much take a bound army with everything you need. 40k as I currently know it has ended. Not sure what all is going to be used coming into this next GT season.
Chaos psychic focus – mark of chaos or being a daemon of a particular chaos god = auto primaris of that god in addition to others.
This is really quite interesting. Anyone know if this takes up one of your powers or when they say "In addition" it is actually a freebie?
If so I look forward to the FAQs for CSM as it might make Thousand Sons somewhat useful to fulfill the Mark of Tzeentch requirement and allow a Maleficarum roll
jamesk1973 wrote: Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!.
No, you don't do extra HP, you only count Pens as two wounds for combat res. Which only applies vs. Walkers.
Leth wrote: Nidzilla will be just fine, you just have to play it differently. No reduced charges for terrain, have the ability to buy lots of cover.
Buy what cover? I haven't seen anything about purchasing terrain (anything new anyway)
Everything is scoring so its easy to play to objectives and just bum rush with a crap ton of monstrous creatures and just see them get through it all.
Apparently my opponents are very good at dealing with a bunch of T6 wounds because just bum rushing without cover means I lose - guaranteed.
Venomthropes to spice. Flying tyrants are still really good. Ability to take multiple force org charts as long as you get minimum troops. So for every two troops and one HQ you take you get a full org worth of things you can take(so three elites, three heavys, etc)
And Troops isn't a place where I like to devote a lot of points... you know - Nidzilla and all that. In addition, the Force Org wasn't a limiter for me (not really anyway) so that's a pointless thing to bring up.
But whatever - apparently it's all rosy for MCs even with the Smash nerf meaning only Carnifexes having any chance to kill a vehicle (including Dreads), loss of cover saves (so zero save against anti-tank weapons) and the FMC assault nerf.
Tomb King wrote: Battle Bros – benefit from warlord trait; ICs can join; "friendly units" for psy powers, abilities, etc.; can use special abilities to repair vehicles; can use modifiers and re-rolls on reserve rolls; can embark on each other's transports
Allies of Con – treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, attacked or targeted; cannot move within 1" of each other; no warlord, no IC joining, and basically none of the above stuff but are impacted by that effect enemy models.
Desperate – same as AOC plus if within 6" roll a D6, on a 1 they do nothing
Come the Apoc – same as Desperate but cannot deploy within 12" of each other.
No restrictions on scoring for any allies. yes they get objective secured.
Also no limit to amount of FoC you can take... so can anyone point out the difference between unbound and bound armies again? You can pretty much take a bound army with everything you need. 40k as I currently know it has ended. Not sure what all is going to be used coming into this next GT season.
feth em. Let the power gamers out-cheese each other ad infinitum.
Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!
smh
Also, looks like 7th is shaping up to be the "psyker" edition.
Overwatch is unchanged and charges are still random, but I think the shape of the game as a whole is lending itself to more aggressive play, which should make assault a more viable option.
Objectives are going to be out in the open (at least in theory); armies are only further incentivized to hoof it to them with the new tac cards.
But I'm a visionless microbe so it could play it out in an entirely different fashion.
Disappointed with my Nids as is. All this new info is even worse. Codex psychic powers are rubbish except 2 not worth the risk that now comes with them. New warlord traits all 3 lists have practical uses, Nids are situational and even the good are weak in comparison. And D weapons. Where is the love for Nids. Best looking army, awesome miniatures, rules slapped together in an afternoon.
Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!
smh
Also, looks like 7th is shaping up to be the "psyker" edition.
Overwatch is unchanged and charges are still random, but I think the shape of the game as a whole is lending itself to more aggressive play, which should make assault a more viable option.
Objectives are going to be out in the open (at least in theory); armies are only further incentivized to hoof it to them with the new tac cards.
But I'm a visionless microbe so it could play it out in an entirely different fashion.
That's exactly it - objectives are plonked down before sides get picked. A player weighting one side or the other with objectives would be shooting themselves in the foot half the time.
Leth wrote: I honestly dont see the FMC spam armies that basically required fateweaver to be as big of a thing. Also I just ignore fateweaver most games, he does not actually do much damage and his buffing ability is mediocre.
Especially with the changes to FMC I really dont see it being much of a problem.
You mean the change where FLyrants need to give the opponent a 1-turn warning before assaulting? And be gliding to make it easy to kill the flyrant?
Or the change where Crones and flyrants have an all but useless Vector Strike?
Yes, FMCs are more resilient...but their offense has been nerfed so badly that no one will care that they are flying around.
Nidzilla will be just fine, you just have to play it differently. No reduced charges for terrain, have the ability to buy lots of cover. Everything is scoring so its easy to play to objectives and just bum rush with a crap ton of monstrous creatures and just see them get through it all.
I love the 'just learn to play' posts.... TMCs live an die by cover saves... with only 3+ save and no invulns, they need cover saves or they just get blown off the table.
Ability to take multiple force org charts as long as you get minimum troops. So for every two troops and one HQ you take you get a full org worth of things you can take(so three elites, three heavys, etc)
Yes, we are reading the same thread, we know the new rules.... so now we can take more of the same models that have been so heavily nerfed.... the point it that they have been heavily nerfed.
Leth wrote: So my Inquisition deathcult assassins/crusaders/priest squad in land raider crusader might actually see tabletime with coteaz.......Sweeeeeeet throw in a mystic for dat warcharge and go to town.
Yep. Here's my hilarious first pass at GK. Grav guns will ruin this list, but its gonna be fun to play.
Also, looks like 7th is shaping up to be the "psyker" edition.
Welcome to 8th edition Fantasy-K.
Did you guys miss the charts with chance of success and chance of perils? To me, overall, it is pretty clear that psykers got a nerf rather than a buff.
Leth wrote: Nidzilla will be just fine, you just have to play it differently. No reduced charges for terrain, have the ability to buy lots of cover.
Buy what cover? I haven't seen anything about purchasing terrain (anything new anyway)
Everything is scoring so its easy to play to objectives and just bum rush with a crap ton of monstrous creatures and just see them get through it all.
Apparently my opponents are very good at dealing with a bunch of T6 wounds because just bum rushing without cover means I lose - guaranteed.
Venomthropes to spice. Flying tyrants are still really good. Ability to take multiple force org charts as long as you get minimum troops. So for every two troops and one HQ you take you get a full org worth of things you can take(so three elites, three heavys, etc)
And Troops isn't a place where I like to devote a lot of points... you know - Nidzilla and all that. In addition, the Force Org wasn't a limiter for me (not really anyway) so that's a pointless thing to bring up.
But whatever - apparently it's all rosy for MCs even with the Smash nerf meaning only Carnifexes having any chance to kill a vehicle (including Dreads), loss of cover saves (so zero save against anti-tank weapons) and the FMC assault nerf.
You can buy venomthropes for cover as well as grenades. With enough elite slots you can buy them one each without losing out. two units of 10 termagaunts now opens up everything so whats that 100 points to get 3 of every other slot? Yea not seeing a lot of points spent in troops to make it work. In addition you can spam zoanthropes now for easy synapse and some of the cheapest access to 2 warp charges.
two x flying hive tyrants with double leech
3x venomthrope
2x zoanthrope
4x 10 man termagaunts
7x carnifex with adrenal split however you want
50 points to work with.
Not the best list, but it gives you an idea of what you can work with. Or you can go 3-6 exocrines and a skyshield landing pad with zoanthropes and venomthropes for a 2+ cover 4+ invul all the time potentially with FNP. The options go on for nidzilla.
Spoletta wrote: Demon factory will have many problems, mainly the fact that all those powers are WC 3. You are not going to summon more stuff than i can destroy in a turn, and you will do nothing in the mean time.
The only good power is sacrifice since it's WC 1, but it has it's downsides:
1) It comes after dice generation, so it will not contribute to that phase.
2) It's a fragile as hell model when you get it ML2, 2 guardsman can easily take him out. Worst of all he is conjured after the movement phase, so he can't be put inside a troop. He will NEVER make it to the next turn.
Also, what will you do when an assault army (which will now start appearing) gets on you? You are gonna defend with Tzeenthc heralds (without gifts) and pink horrors (without available dices)?
While we will have to see once it is in play, I don't agree currently. Summoning is only one aspect of the army. That is not all they do. So, while they are summoning they are using the rest of the army to also pound on yours. Summoning creates the classic war of attrition. You spend you psychic powers on offense or protection while the opponent focuses on summoning. Both your armies are focusing on killing one another but the summoning army continues to call in 100-300 points in new units a turn (depending on the dice, dispels, etc.). Over the course of a six turn game, the summoning army has added 600-1,800 additional points on the table. Meaning, they will win the war of attrition - every single time.
While you are focusing on killing the summoned units, it is firepower not being directed at their core army. So while you may kill the units summoned every turn, it is less of their core army you are killing as a result. In the meantime, all their firepower is always concentrated on your core army. If you don't focus on the summoned units, and instead on their core army, eventually you will have almost another entire army to deal with.
So summoning creates either great meat shields or, if ignored, will in fact become a serious problem once enough of them are in play.
While I am not saying it is the be all end all strategy, I can see how this can get abusive and very fast - especially in a Chaos Daemon army.
Focussing an army on summoning isn't going to work well for anything except for a Tzeentch Daemon list... You need 20+ power dice to summon 2 units per turn.
However another army that can get perhaps 10 warp charges, might be able to play a moderately normal game and summon in an extra unit every turn. You're still tying up 300+ points of models in to possibly summoning ~100pts per turn unless you get lucky and manage to get a cheap model with possession....
Yeah. I don't know. Definitely worth some playtesting.
I think it will only work for a Tzeentch Daemon army.. anything less than 20 warp charges isn't going to summon stuff
Of course this is all assuming every summoning goes through with no Perils killing off your Psykers, or being denied, or just failing because of how easy it is to fail.
Yes, if dice go well you could easily end up with lots of models, but you're not really likely to. Pluse of you summon more psykers, how are they generating their powers? Last I knew, powers were generated at the start of the game, so unless something is in the rules for summoning that we haven't seen, summoned psykers have no psychic powers. Which means you just need to nuke that one psyker doing the summoning to stop it. Oh and one of the powers causes a wound to summon Heralds (even for Daemons) and the Greater Daemon causes a Perils. So you know, the only one that is "good" is the Summoning one to use, and even then you can focus on removing the Psykers that know it to eliminate the threat.
There are always a lot of ifs - If a peril kills your psycher (and you do not have wargear to compensate such as a ghost helm or Runes of Witnessing). As far as being denied, that won't happen since it doesn't target any enemy unit, though their are always dispels, but still, based on WHFB, that usually means at least 1-2 powers will still get off a turn. As for the generation of psychers, nothing I mentioned even considers this. Just summon units of bloodletters, or something similar, every single turn.
And nuking the one psycher isn't much easier than it may be depending on terrain and set up (not to mention the judicious use of Look Out Sir). Sure, there are ifs on both sides (for and against) but now we will just have to wait and see how it plays out in practice. Or if the army is psycher heavy, such as an Eldar army with two Farseers and ten Warlocks generating D6+16 dice for casting.
I'm not saying there aren't sound strategies to deal with it. But anything introduced that has the potential to add another 600-1,800 (assuming getting 1-3 units of bloodletters a turn) has the potential to seriously skew the balance of a game.
Ok so I know I'm beating Fateweaver to death with a dead horse while that dead horse is also being beaten, but... he is weird.
Anyone know how many warp charge dice he'll get? He is two ML4 psykers, but only generated 4 WC points in the past. I would assume it will still be 4, but does it say that you add up the mastery levels of your psykers to get the WC dice now? That would make 8. Maybe it will be in the FAQ.
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Can you verify this? I've heard psykers inside transports can only cast witchfires. Is this true? As in can they not even bless their own unit which is with them inside the transport??
rabidguineapig wrote: Ok so I know I'm beating Fateweaver to death with a dead horse while that dead horse is also being beaten, but... he is weird.
Anyone know how many warp charge dice he'll get? He is two ML4 psykers, but only generated 4 WC points in the past. I would assume it will still be 4, but does it say that you add up the mastery levels of your psykers to get the WC dice now? That would make 8. Maybe it will be in the FAQ.
Fatey will only generate 4 dice, unsure on how horrors will work with more then 11 models, it may be the case they are useless or you need more then 11 (or 16) to do the higher casting of flickering fire
MarkyMark, Psychic Phase happens before shooting, yes?
If so, do you see anything preventing a FMC from using Psychic Shooting Attacks in the psychic phase, then swooping off the board in the shooting phase?
rabidguineapig wrote: Ok so I know I'm beating Fateweaver to death with a dead horse while that dead horse is also being beaten, but... he is weird.
Anyone know how many warp charge dice he'll get? He is two ML4 psykers, but only generated 4 WC points in the past. I would assume it will still be 4, but does it say that you add up the mastery levels of your psykers to get the WC dice now? That would make 8. Maybe it will be in the FAQ.
Fatey will only generate 4 dice, unsure on how horrors will work with more then 11 models, it may be the case they are useless or you need more then 11 (or 16) to do the higher casting of flickering fire
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Full wording for move through cover?
A unit that contains at least one with this rule rolls an extra d6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3d6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the special rule automatically passes dangerous terrain tests.
undertow wrote: MarkyMark, Psychic Phase happens before shooting, yes?
If so, do you see anything preventing a FMC from using Psychic Shooting Attacks in the psychic phase, then swooping off the board in the shooting phase?
Nope you are allowed. Also say screamer council or jetseer, can now shoot PSA then turbo boost in the shooting phase, or hive tyrant can cast PSA then shoot with two weapons in the shooting phase.
Something that has made me cry a little on the inside.
And all I have to do is kill a handful of cultists to prevent you from claiming objectives. Heldrakes are flyers, yes? So they can't claim objectives at all. Annoying? Most certainly. Unbeatable? Not even a little bit.
Of course this is all assuming every summoning goes through with no Perils killing off your Psykers, or being denied, or just failing because of how easy it is to fail.
Yes, if dice go well you could easily end up with lots of models, but you're not really likely to. Pluse of you summon more psykers, how are they generating their powers? Last I knew, powers were generated at the start of the game, so unless something is in the rules for summoning that we haven't seen, summoned psykers have no psychic powers. Which means you just need to nuke that one psyker doing the summoning to stop it. Oh and one of the powers causes a wound to summon Heralds (even for Daemons) and the Greater Daemon causes a Perils. So you know, the only one that is "good" is the Summoning one to use, and even then you can focus on removing the Psykers that know it to eliminate the threat.
There are always a lot of ifs - If a peril kills your psycher (and you do not have wargear to compensate such as a ghost helm or Runes of Witnessing). As far as being denied, that won't happen since it doesn't target any enemy unit, though their are always dispels, but still, based on WHFB, that usually means at least 1-2 powers will still get off a turn. As for the generation of psychers, nothing I mentioned even considers this. Just summon units of bloodletters, or something similar, every single turn.
And nuking the one psycher isn't much easier than it may be depending on terrain and set up (not to mention the judicious use of Look Out Sir). Sure, there are ifs on both sides (for and against) but now we will just have to wait and see how it plays out in practice. Or if the army is psycher heavy, such as an Eldar army with two Farseers and ten Warlocks generating D6+16 dice for casting.
I'm not saying there aren't sound strategies to deal with it. But anything introduced that has the potential to add another 600-1,800 (assuming getting 1-3 units of bloodletters a turn) has the potential to seriously skew the balance of a game.
Ghost Helms and Runes of Witnessing are both limited to the Eldar codex. The first eats Warp Charges, the latter is of limited use and we don't know how it'll be changed to work with the new rules.
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Hey man, can you give some info on the changes to the Chariot rules?
Edit: Opps sorry didn't see the number of other people asking, must be a lot of people with Burning Chariots of Tzeentch waiting to see if it now works
I just said ruins (4+) and craters (6+) have specific rules for standing in them. Why is that hard to grasp?
Lots of maps at tournaments, cons, etc don't have ruins or craters. They have trees, rocks, etc. I guess we all need to go out and buy ruins?
Just seems bizarre. What's gained by not having area terrain?
Thats a problem with most tournametns I have seen - they have mostly open boards - there should be a mixture of open, some terrain and cluttered boards - anything else is just promoting a certain play style whether by design or accident.
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Full wording for move through cover?
A unit that contains at least one with this rule rolls an extra d6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3d6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the special rule automatically passes dangerous terrain tests.
Oh man, I can already see the YMDC battle about whether "not slowed by charging through difficult terrain" includes being reduced to I1 or not.
Something that has made me cry a little on the inside.
And all I have to do is kill a handful of cultists to prevent you from claiming objectives. Heldrakes are flyers, yes? So they can't claim objectives at all. Annoying? Most certainly. Unbeatable? Not even a little bit.
It was a example dude, I am sure you can create other spammed lists that will acutally be effective.
I just said ruins (4+) and craters (6+) have specific rules for standing in them. Why is that hard to grasp?
Lots of maps at tournaments, cons, etc don't have ruins or craters. They have trees, rocks, etc. I guess we all need to go out and buy ruins?
Just seems bizarre. What's gained by not having area terrain?
Thats a problem with most tournametns I have seen - they have mostly open boards - there should be a mixture of open, some terrain and cluttered boards - anything else is just promoting a certain play style whether by design or accident.
Tournaments I play at have plenty of terrain on their boards. Just not always terrain that you can get obstruction from.
Chaos psychic focus – mark of chaos or being a daemon of a particular chaos god = auto primaris of that god in addition to others.
This is really quite interesting. Anyone know if this takes up one of your powers or when they say "In addition" it is actually a freebie?
If so I look forward to the FAQs for CSM as it might make Thousand Sons somewhat useful to fulfill the Mark of Tzeentch requirement and allow a Maleficarum roll
It definitely needs a faq, along with the Black Staff... I hope Ahriman can take Divination. I wonder what, if anything, they'd make the Black Staff do? Same Witchfire multiple times? Spell familiar? Pick spells? Who knows.
But lets be honest... I'm sure they'll promptly put out a 7th faq for CSM, and just leave TS in the dust (lol?) so don't get your hopes up too much
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Can you verify this? I've heard psykers inside transports can only cast witchfires. Is this true? As in can they not even bless their own unit which is with them inside the transport??
Psykers embarked on a transport cannot manifest any other kind of power than witchfire
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Can you verify this? I've heard psykers inside transports can only cast witchfires. Is this true? As in can they not even bless their own unit which is with them inside the transport??
Psykers embarked on a transport cannot manifest any other kind of power than witchfire
Are blessings magically witchfires now? Or is that just wishful thinking?
So the burning chariot is fixed. Riders always count as stationary when firing weapons.
Riders CANNOT disembark from the chariot.
IF either rider or chariot is killed both are removed from play.
When shooting at chariots keep the number of successful hits that have been caused, keep the dice in different wound pools based on str and ap basically.
The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to the rider OR the chariot of the cloest model in the unit, if more then one pool the attacking player decides what pool to resolve first,
Chariots can be locked in combat, Chariots fight like infantry models, and can sweeping advance, pile in console etc (unless stunned)
In CC against a chariot decide if attacking chariot or rider, model by model basis, always by the riders WS though. You use the chariots FA though
Hammer of wrath from chariot is d6str 6 ap- can re roll charge distance as well!, rider has fearless and relentless and can fire overwatch but not with a weapon on the chariot.
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Hello, kind sir! I have 2.
1. As already said, ICs cannot join MCs. But there is an ICMC (O'Vesa, from Farsight Enclaves Supplement). Is there any kind of exception for ICMCs regarding being joined by other ICs? Or MCs can never be joined whatsoever?
2. Now that Supplements are considered part of the same Faction of its 'mother' codex, there is the possibility of bringing, let's say, an Iron Hands and a Clan Raukaan separate detachments, but still as the primary one (no allies). But... how about Relics? Can I have a Chapter Master with Shield Eternal in my Iron Hands detachment and another one with Gorgon's Chain in the Clan Raukaan detachment?
MarkyMark wrote: So the burning chariot is fixed. Riders always count as stationary when firing weapons.
Riders CANNOT disembark from the chariot.
IF either rider or chariot is killed both are removed from play.
When shooting at chariots keep the number of successful hits that have been caused, keep the dice in different wound pools based on str and ap basically.
The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to the rider OR the chariot of the cloest model in the unit, if more then one pool the attacking player decides what pool to resolve first,
Chariots can be locked in combat, Chariots fight like infantry models, and can sweeping advance, pile in console etc (unless stunned)
In CC against a chariot decide if attacking chariot or rider, model by model basis, always by the riders WS though. You use the chariots FA though
Hammer of wrath from chariot is d6str 6 ap- can re roll charge distance as well!, rider has fearless and relentless and can fire overwatch but not with a weapon on the chariot.
Tears of joy ladies and gentlemen, tears of joy...
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Hello, kind sir! I have 2.
1. As already said, ICs cannot join MCs. But there is an ICMC (O'Vesa, from Farsight Enclaves Supplement). Is there any kind of exception for ICMCs regarding being joined by other ICs? Or MCs can never be joined whatsoever?
2. Now that Supplements are considered part of the same Faction of its 'mother' codex, there is the possibility of bringing, let's say, a Iron Hands and a Clak Raukaan separate detachments, but still as the primary one (no allies). But... how about Relics? Can I have a Chapter Master with Shield Eternal in my Iron Hands detachment and another one with Gorgon's Chain in the Clan Raukaan detachment?
Ovesa star is dead mate, you cannot join IC's to a unit with MC's in it there is no exception.
Thats a codex question rather then rule book, it is not covered in the BRB.
rabidguineapig wrote: That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.
You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...
Lootas can ground him reliably thanks to volume of fire.
No they can't. They can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding. And he gets to reroll that. Plus Iron Arm is now a fixed +3 to toughness.
Sorry, they can reliably wound him because they fill the sky with more saves than he should normally make. Even with Iron Arm (which is deniable, and has to be rolled on the table to get).
I think you missed something important. 1 Grounding check per turn, not per wound. That means they can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding per turn. He can re-roll that if he uses his reroll there. The odds of failing a rerollable 3+ is only 11.11%. So Lootas, if they manage to cause a wound, have a 11.11% to ground Fateweaver.
SeanDrake wrote: Got my book if any unanswered questions fire away.
Can you verify this? I've heard psykers inside transports can only cast witchfires. Is this true? As in can they not even bless their own unit which is with them inside the transport??
Psykers embarked on a transport cannot manifest any other kind of power than witchfire
Are blessings magically witchfires now? Or is that just wishful thinking?
MarkyMark wrote: So the burning chariot is fixed. Riders always count as stationary when firing weapons.
Riders CANNOT disembark from the chariot.
IF either rider or chariot is killed both are removed from play.
When shooting at chariots keep the number of successful hits that have been caused, keep the dice in different wound pools based on str and ap basically.
The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to the rider OR the chariot of the cloest model in the unit, if more then one pool the attacking player decides what pool to resolve first,
Chariots can be locked in combat, Chariots fight like infantry models, and can sweeping advance, pile in console etc (unless stunned)
In CC against a chariot decide if attacking chariot or rider, model by model basis, always by the riders WS though. You use the chariots FA though
Hammer of wrath from chariot is d6str 6 ap- can re roll charge distance as well!, rider has fearless and relentless and can fire overwatch but not with a weapon on the chariot.
That's some interesting changes. My overlord getting killed from a lucky shot to the chariot seems pretty silly, but being a lot better in CC is also a boon. Also, not disembarking is really Awkward.
Leth wrote: You can buy venomthropes for cover as well as grenades. With enough elite slots you can buy them one each without losing out. two units of 10 termagaunts now opens up everything so whats that 100 points to get 3 of every other slot? Yea not seeing a lot of points spent in troops to make it work. In addition you can spam zoanthropes now for easy synapse and some of the cheapest access to 2 warp charges.
two x flying hive tyrants with double leech
3x venomthrope
2x zoanthrope
4x 10 man termagaunts
7x carnifex with adrenal split however you want
50 points to work with.
Not the best list, but it gives you an idea of what you can work with. Or you can go 3-6 exocrines and a skyshield landing pad with zoanthropes and venomthropes for a 2+ cover 4+ invul all the time potentially with FNP. The options go on for nidzilla.
Oh boy - 7 Carnifexes that will do jack all over the course of the game. Well built list. Truly you understand the ins and outs of the Tyranid codex.
hint: the Shrouded bubble is pretty small. And having 2 Synapse is just a bad idea (the 2 Flyrants can't be counted on because they move fast).
But that's okay. You schooled me well.
Sigvatr wrote: Forests no longer grant cover then? Uh? In the grim future of the 41st millenium, there are only ruins. And craters.
I felt despair also, for a moment.
Then I thought, no one is forcing us to use multistory ruins.
What if I take my forest terrain (formerly area terrain) and glue a few low lying pieces of debris to it?
I then have an "area" of ruins. Simple 4+ cover save...until the D weapon arrives that is...
If focus fire is unchanged it probably wont matter. It will be impossible in most circumstances to get many models hidden. People will just shoot the guys who aren't obscured......
MarkyMark wrote: So the burning chariot is fixed. Riders always count as stationary when firing weapons.
Riders CANNOT disembark from the chariot.
IF either rider or chariot is killed both are removed from play.
When shooting at chariots keep the number of successful hits that have been caused, keep the dice in different wound pools based on str and ap basically.
The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to the rider OR the chariot of the cloest model in the unit, if more then one pool the attacking player decides what pool to resolve first,
Chariots can be locked in combat, Chariots fight like infantry models, and can sweeping advance, pile in console etc (unless stunned)
In CC against a chariot decide if attacking chariot or rider, model by model basis, always by the riders WS though. You use the chariots FA though
Hammer of wrath from chariot is d6str 6 ap- can re roll charge distance as well!, rider has fearless and relentless and can fire overwatch but not with a weapon on the chariot.
That's some interesting changes. My overlord getting killed from a lucky shot to the chariot seems pretty silly, but being a lot better in CC is also a boon. Also, not disembarking is really Awkward.
It'll be interesting how they FAQ Reanimation Protocols around this (if they do).
Given that if the rider eats a Lascannon hit and dies, he still has his Reanimation Protocol at the end of the phase. Does the Chariot die and then he can get back up without it or does it wait for the Everliving token to be removed? Or illogically do both come back if the RP roll is successful.
I hope GW have put the year without FAQ to good use cause if not it's going to get complicated.
mercury14 wrote: What about focus fire? Any changes? Still in there?
Big change, removed from the book...
To add, a user from Warseer posted that you deal with cover as model per model basis. If a squad of orks has 3 behind ruins and 2 exposed, these 2 get no cover at all. Now, if you make a look out sir roll and the new target has a cover save... will it be able to use it?
MarkyMark wrote:Ovesa star is dead mate, you cannot join IC's to a unit with MC's in it there is no exception.
Thats a codex question rather then rule book, it is not covered in the BRB.
Ok. Never used O'Vesa star, just asking because it makes impossible to use the 'the Eight' bodyguard complete unit . Gonna wait for a FAQ
Regarding the Relics, I think this is a broader situation. SM, Tau, Eldar and CSM have supplements that change the selection of Relics. If we'll be able to cherry-pick Relics from the main codex and from its supplements... it would be glorious, lol.
mercury14 wrote: What about focus fire? Any changes? Still in there?
Big change, removed from the book...
So, it reverted back to 5th edition default for shooting at units in cover. Interesting.
I think someone said earlier that cover is on a model by model basis now, and you still remove from the front first.
So make sure your special weapons dudes are in the trees I guess?
So a unit in forest with modeled trees gets no cover save at all except for individual models which happen to be partially obscured? That seems silly.
Yes and no. I think the "Citadel Wood" model gets special rules giving everyone in the area a 5+ cover save. (I.e. the old cover rules; I suspect few groups will have issues using those same rules for their non-Citadel Wood models)
You have a unit of 10 dudes, 5 in the trees and 5 out of the trees. The 5 dudes out of the trees are closest to the enemy unit shooting at them. Those 5 dudes would not benefit from cover saves against enemy shooting, and would be the first 5 casualties removed.
At least in my understanding, keep in mind I don't have my book yet.
MarkyMark wrote: So the burning chariot is fixed. Riders always count as stationary when firing weapons.
Riders CANNOT disembark from the chariot.
IF either rider or chariot is killed both are removed from play.
When shooting at chariots keep the number of successful hits that have been caused, keep the dice in different wound pools based on str and ap basically.
The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to the rider OR the chariot of the cloest model in the unit, if more then one pool the attacking player decides what pool to resolve first,
Chariots can be locked in combat, Chariots fight like infantry models, and can sweeping advance, pile in console etc (unless stunned)
In CC against a chariot decide if attacking chariot or rider, model by model basis, always by the riders WS though. You use the chariots FA though
Hammer of wrath from chariot is d6str 6 ap- can re roll charge distance as well!, rider has fearless and relentless and can fire overwatch but not with a weapon on the chariot.
That's some interesting changes. My overlord getting killed from a lucky shot to the chariot seems pretty silly, but being a lot better in CC is also a boon. Also, not disembarking is really Awkward.
It'll be interesting how they FAQ Reanimation Protocols around this (if they do).
Given that if the rider eats a Lascannon hit and dies, he still has his Reanimation Protocol at the end of the phase. Does the Chariot die and then he can get back up without it or does it wait for the Everliving token to be removed? Or illogically do both come back if the RP roll is successful.
I hope GW have put the year without FAQ to good use cause if not it's going to get complicated.
It is in the BRB mate, if you pass the reainmation test you come back with 1 HP and 1 wound
rabidguineapig wrote: That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.
You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...
Lootas can ground him reliably thanks to volume of fire.
No they can't. They can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding. And he gets to reroll that. Plus Iron Arm is now a fixed +3 to toughness.
Sorry, they can reliably wound him because they fill the sky with more saves than he should normally make. Even with Iron Arm (which is deniable, and has to be rolled on the table to get).
I think you missed something important. 1 Grounding check per turn, not per wound. That means they can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding per turn. He can re-roll that if he uses his reroll there. The odds of failing a rerollable 3+ is only 11.11%. So Lootas, if they manage to cause a wound, have a 11.11% to ground Fateweaver.
And I think you're misreading that post. The wound part was a correction in the second post.
So a unit in forest with modeled trees gets no cover save at all except for individual models which happen to be partially obscured? That seems silly.
Yes and no. I think the "Citadel Wood" model gets special rules giving everyone in the area a 5+ cover save. (I.e. the old cover rules; I suspect few groups will have issues using those same rules for their non-Citadel Wood models)
You have a unit of 10 dudes, 5 in the trees and 5 out of the trees. The 5 dudes out of the trees are closest to the enemy unit shooting at them. Those 5 dudes would not benefit from cover saves against enemy shooting, and would be the first 5 casualties removed.
At least in my understanding, keep in mind I don't have my book yet.
MarkyMark wrote: So the burning chariot is fixed. Riders always count as stationary when firing weapons.
Riders CANNOT disembark from the chariot.
IF either rider or chariot is killed both are removed from play.
When shooting at chariots keep the number of successful hits that have been caused, keep the dice in different wound pools based on str and ap basically.
The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to the rider OR the chariot of the cloest model in the unit, if more then one pool the attacking player decides what pool to resolve first,
Chariots can be locked in combat, Chariots fight like infantry models, and can sweeping advance, pile in console etc (unless stunned)
In CC against a chariot decide if attacking chariot or rider, model by model basis, always by the riders WS though. You use the chariots FA though
Hammer of wrath from chariot is d6str 6 ap- can re roll charge distance as well!, rider has fearless and relentless and can fire overwatch but not with a weapon on the chariot.
That's some interesting changes. My overlord getting killed from a lucky shot to the chariot seems pretty silly, but being a lot better in CC is also a boon. Also, not disembarking is really Awkward.
It'll be interesting how they FAQ Reanimation Protocols around this (if they do).
Given that if the rider eats a Lascannon hit and dies, he still has his Reanimation Protocol at the end of the phase. Does the Chariot die and then he can get back up without it or does it wait for the Everliving token to be removed? Or illogically do both come back if the RP roll is successful.
I hope GW have put the year without FAQ to good use cause if not it's going to get complicated.
It is in the BRB mate, if you pass the reainmation test you come back with 1 HP and 1 wound
Wow I'm really surprised GW had that covered. Thank you very much for answering these questions.
What about assaulting out of transports, or disembarking/embarking? Any change to how one disembarks/embarks and how far one can move after? Shooting out of moving vehicles, any change there?
So a unit in forest with modeled trees gets no cover save at all except for individual models which happen to be partially obscured? That seems silly.
Yes and no. I think the "Citadel Wood" model gets special rules giving everyone in the area a 5+ cover save. (I.e. the old cover rules; I suspect few groups will have issues using those same rules for their non-Citadel Wood models)
You have a unit of 10 dudes, 5 in the trees and 5 out of the trees. The 5 dudes out of the trees are closest to the enemy unit shooting at them. Those 5 dudes would not benefit from cover saves against enemy shooting, and would be the first 5 casualties removed.
At least in my understanding, keep in mind I don't have my book yet.
Ah, so there's 5+ area cover after all
Someone with the book would have to verify. I tried to search, but either I dreamed the post talking about terrain effects for specific GW terrain or search is broken.
So a unit in forest with modeled trees gets no cover save at all except for individual models which happen to be partially obscured? That seems silly.
Yes and no. I think the "Citadel Wood" model gets special rules giving everyone in the area a 5+ cover save. (I.e. the old cover rules; I suspect few groups will have issues using those same rules for their non-Citadel Wood models)
You have a unit of 10 dudes, 5 in the trees and 5 out of the trees. The 5 dudes out of the trees are closest to the enemy unit shooting at them. Those 5 dudes would not benefit from cover saves against enemy shooting, and would be the first 5 casualties removed.
At least in my understanding, keep in mind I don't have my book yet.
Ah, so there's 5+ area cover after all
Of course, should have suspected it given the Wood Elf book specifies you have to use a citidel wood as your woods. Well, looks like I'll be buying one, then just making MDF bases of the same shape with homemade trees on it.
IIRC, any kind of terrain that obscures 25% or more of a model gives it 5+ cover now. What we lost was the type of terrain called 'Area Terrain' - the one that just having a toe inside gave 5+ cover AND +2 if you GtG. There isn't any kind of auto-cover now.
Oh and the disappearance of Area Terrain throws away the situation of having +1 or +2 for GtG in Ruins with Area Terrain. The only way to get +2 cover when GtG is with craters, barricades/defence lines or made-up terrain
What was area terrain before is now difficult terrain, you have to be 25% obsurced to get 5+ cover (no +2 bonus for GTG either) and of course difficult terrain tests.
Outflank and assault from vehicles has been answered many times before people.
I'm not sure if the assault from reserves has been covered and this is a rather monstrous thread.
Thanks Mark for the Necron info. I'm a bit undecided on the Chariot, especially since you can't disembark.
Cannot charge from any kind of reserves.
Dracos wrote:What about assaulting out of transports, or disembarking/embarking? Any change to how one disembarks/embarks and how far one can move after? Shooting out of moving vehicles, any change there?
Unless it is an Assault Vehicle, can't charge from it even if Stationary. (buildings are ok). No other changes
It is my opinion that the new Battle Forged FOC is essentially unplayable in any games in which lists are not thoroughly pre-negotiated.
We thought Double FOC at 2000 points was broke before. Now we have unlimited FOC at any point level.
We thought 5 Riptides were bad before. How does 9 sound?
I'm sure my gaming group will houserule it in some fashion to make our games playable again. Are there people out there who are inclined to play it straight out of the rule book?
tag8833 wrote: It is my opinion that the new Battle Forged FOC is essentially unplayable in any games in which lists are not thoroughly pre-negotiated.
We thought Double FOC at 2000 points was broke before. Now we have unlimited FOC at any point level.
We thought 5 Riptides were bad before. How does 9 sound?
I'm sure my gaming group will houserule it in some fashion to make our games playable again. Are there people out there who are inclined to play it straight out of the rule book?
tag8833 wrote: It is my opinion that the new Battle Forged FOC is essentially unplayable in any games in which lists are not thoroughly pre-negotiated.
We thought Double FOC at 2000 points was broke before. Now we have unlimited FOC at any point level.
We thought 5 Riptides were bad before. How does 9 sound?
I'm sure my gaming group will houserule it in some fashion to make our games playable again. Are there people out there who are inclined to play it straight out of the rule book?
Who thought double force org was broken? Everyone freaked out about it the first month or two of 6th, actually got some games in, and then realized it was no big deal (not saying triple force org at 1850 won't be crazy, but lets give it some time... conventional wisdom was so wrong about double force org last time, after all).
May have missed it, but what happens after an FMC gets grounded? I saw that they can assault or be assaulted, but are they able to immediately start flying again on their next turn?
rabidguineapig wrote: May have missed it, but what happens after an FMC gets grounded? I saw that they can assault or be assaulted, but are they able to immediately start flying again on their next turn?
Regarding the Combined Arms and FoC slots. If you have units from the same Faction do they work under one FoC? Say I have Black Legion Sorceror for my HQ and 2 Crimson SLaughter Chaos Marines as my Troops. Or would it be that each Codex got its own FoC?
rabidguineapig wrote: May have missed it, but what happens after an FMC gets grounded? I saw that they can assault or be assaulted, but are they able to immediately start flying again on their next turn?
tag8833 wrote: It is my opinion that the new Battle Forged FOC is essentially unplayable in any games in which lists are not thoroughly pre-negotiated.
We thought Double FOC at 2000 points was broke before. Now we have unlimited FOC at any point level.
This is GW way of telling all the 1999 +1 crowd they were doing it wrong
See this is where us Tyranid players are looking at this wrong. We're not supposed to look at what's not in OUR codex, but we should see what is in OTHER codices; I mean we can now Forge A Narrative by using the CtA rules. Want Melta: Forge a Narrative by allying your Nids with some Salamanders - that makes sense, right? How about Lances, I'm sure that the Eldar would leve to lend their Lances to a Tyranid force....now that would be Narrative!
Are you completely unaware of what Genestealers do? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse because you think it's funny?
Can somebody give more precise details regarding terrain. It was posted that AREA TERRAIN no longer exists. This could have very significant ramifications. Confirmation on this?
models in ruins are 4+ if you can see them fully or not, still 4+
area terrain is basically diffcult terrain still, but you have to be 25% obsurced to get a 5+ cover save
then you get to use the rules for it from battlefield terrain section, you get a 5+ for standing in it LOL but it does say composition, Citadel wood....
tag8833 wrote: It is my opinion that the new Battle Forged FOC is essentially unplayable in any games in which lists are not thoroughly pre-negotiated.
We thought Double FOC at 2000 points was broke before. Now we have unlimited FOC at any point level.
We thought 5 Riptides were bad before. How does 9 sound?
I'm sure my gaming group will houserule it in some fashion to make our games playable again. Are there people out there who are inclined to play it straight out of the rule book?
Who thought double force org was broken? Everyone freaked out about it the first month or two of 6th, actually got some games in, and then realized it was no big deal (not saying triple force org at 1850 won't be crazy, but lets give it some time... conventional wisdom was so wrong about double force org last time, after all).
Plenty of people didn't like double force org at 2000pts. It's why so many tournies did 1999(+1)pts. Anything that allows you to spam the same stupid supposedly "elite" and rare overpowered thing OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER (two force orgs plus allies!) instead of encouraging diversity in the list is bad for random pickup games. Now you can add another OVER and OVER and OVER to that since you can feasibly get another 3 of whatever broken you wish in there with a third force org as long as you min/max the other choices. Balance within a codex has never been perfect but now has absolutely no reason to exist and gives GW and easy out since you can take pretty much anything from anywhere instead. Widening the "choices" of players as standard isn't the panacea that some folks think it is.
My question got buried several pages back, so I'll repeat it (along with another one).
Did the Sweeping Advance rules get cleaned up to end the SA versus Everliving debate; ie, does it give examples of special rules that can't be used or futher clarify if a rule that revives a model can be used or not.
Also, for Smash, is it truly double Strength or is it capped off at 10 as before?
I'm not sure if the assault from reserves has been covered and this is a rather monstrous thread.
Thanks Mark for the Necron info. I'm a bit undecided on the Chariot, especially since you can't disembark.
Tbf, CCB got a pretty big buff. 4++ Jinx instead of 5++ (3++ if flat-out?), vehicle damage table now going up to 7 with Living Metal ignoring most damage results and you can now get protection from getting shot at after swooping by going straight into melee. On the other hand, there still is the 100p tax for taking one. Hm.
IIRC, any kind of terrain that obscures 25% or more of a model gives it 5+ cover now. What we lost was the type of terrain called 'Area Terrain' - the one that just having a toe inside gave 5+ cover AND +2 if you GtG. There isn't any kind of auto-cover now.
Oh and the disappearance of Area Terrain throws away the situation of having +1 or +2 for GtG in Ruins with Area Terrain. The only way to get +2 cover when GtG is with craters, barricades/defence lines or made-up terrain
Can someone with the book confirm how GTG and GTG in area cover (if there is such a thing) works?
I'm not sure if the assault from reserves has been covered and this is a rather monstrous thread.
Thanks Mark for the Necron info. I'm a bit undecided on the Chariot, especially since you can't disembark.
Tbf, CCB got a pretty big buff. 4++ Jinx instead of 5++ (3++ if flat-out?), vehicle damage table now going up to 7 with Living Metal ignoring most damage results and you can now get protection from getting shot at after swooping by going straight into melee. On the other hand, there still is the 100p tax for taking one. Hm.
Think it was stated that movement speed doesnt affect Jinx, its 4+ regardless of how fast you move.
MarkyMark wrote: models in ruins are 4+ if you can see them fully or not, still 4+
area terrain is basically diffcult terrain still, but you have to be 25% obsurced to get a 5+ cover save
then you get to use the rules for it from battlefield terrain section, you get a 5+ for standing in it LOL but it does say composition, Citadel wood....
Ah! That's what I was looking for. I thought someone had posted a few examples earlier in the thread somewhere but couldn't find them.
I highly doubt that most groups will have an issue saying "this thing that we always used as a wood? It now counts as a Citadel Wood".
MarkyMark wrote: models in ruins are 4+ if you can see them fully or not, still 4+
area terrain is basically diffcult terrain still, but you have to be 25% obsurced to get a 5+ cover save
then you get to use the rules for it from battlefield terrain section, you get a 5+ for standing in it LOL but it does say composition, Citadel wood....
Do you mean models where LOS goes through ruins? Or based ruins? Can you even be in unbased ruins?
IIRC, any kind of terrain that obscures 25% or more of a model gives it 5+ cover now. What we lost was the type of terrain called 'Area Terrain' - the one that just having a toe inside gave 5+ cover AND +2 if you GtG. There isn't any kind of auto-cover now.
Oh and the disappearance of Area Terrain throws away the situation of having +1 or +2 for GtG in Ruins with Area Terrain. The only way to get +2 cover when GtG is with craters, barricades/defence lines or made-up terrain
Can someone with the book confirm how GTG and GTG in area cover (if there is such a thing) works?
There is no area terrain so no bonus for going to ground in what was once area terrain
So a unit in forest with modeled trees gets no cover save at all except for individual models which happen to be partially obscured? That seems silly.
Yes and no. I think the "Citadel Wood" model gets special rules giving everyone in the area a 5+ cover save. (I.e. the old cover rules; I suspect few groups will have issues using those same rules for their non-Citadel Wood models)
You have a unit of 10 dudes, 5 in the trees and 5 out of the trees. The 5 dudes out of the trees are closest to the enemy unit shooting at them. Those 5 dudes would not benefit from cover saves against enemy shooting, and would be the first 5 casualties removed.
At least in my understanding, keep in mind I don't have my book yet.
Ah, so there's 5+ area cover after all
Someone with the book would have to verify. I tried to search, but either I dreamed the post talking about terrain effects for specific GW terrain or search is broken.
MarkyMark wrote: models in ruins are 4+ if you can see them fully or not, still 4+
area terrain is basically diffcult terrain still, but you have to be 25% obsurced to get a 5+ cover save
then you get to use the rules for it from battlefield terrain section, you get a 5+ for standing in it LOL but it does say composition, Citadel wood....
Do you mean models where LOS goes through ruins? Or based ruins? Can you even be in unbased ruins?
You will have to agree with your opponent if the base counts as the ruin or not.. If you are in a ruin say 2nd floor but not 25% cover you still get the ruin cover save.
So a unit in forest with modeled trees gets no cover save at all except for individual models which happen to be partially obscured? That seems silly.
Yes and no. I think the "Citadel Wood" model gets special rules giving everyone in the area a 5+ cover save. (I.e. the old cover rules; I suspect few groups will have issues using those same rules for their non-Citadel Wood models)
You have a unit of 10 dudes, 5 in the trees and 5 out of the trees. The 5 dudes out of the trees are closest to the enemy unit shooting at them. Those 5 dudes would not benefit from cover saves against enemy shooting, and would be the first 5 casualties removed.
At least in my understanding, keep in mind I don't have my book yet.
Ah, so there's 5+ area cover after all
Someone with the book would have to verify. I tried to search, but either I dreamed the post talking about terrain effects for specific GW terrain or search is broken.
See this is where us Tyranid players are looking at this wrong. We're not supposed to look at what's not in OUR codex, but we should see what is in OTHER codices; I mean we can now Forge A Narrative by using the CtA rules. Want Melta: Forge a Narrative by allying your Nids with some Salamanders - that makes sense, right? How about Lances, I'm sure that the Eldar would leve to lend their Lances to a Tyranid force....now that would be Narrative!
Are you completely unaware of what Genestealers do? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse because you think it's funny?
Die handily to the ever present bolter fire?
Have you seen any genestealer armies in 6th?
)
, but as long as it's there he has a good chance to be a flying troll machine.
