A few personal thoughts, as an Imperial Guardd+Sisters+Inquisition player who is veeeeery interested in these news:
-Deathwatch, as cool as they are, its the right move by GW to remove their codex. Half the 40k codex are Space Marines or relatives, and it was the best option to "delete". That said, I seriously hope they get a new kill team and excellent index rules that allow them to get multiple weapons, wargear options (and wargear abilities) and perhaps even an upgrade option to bikes/terminator armor. Perhaps eventually their own detachment within the Space Marine Codex.
-No mention of Scions or Valkyries as transports. The former should be a Agents of Imperium battleline option honestly. Its the most classic inquisition troops. There's a recent news talking about scions and a T'au invasion, hinting to a new killteam perhaps. Fingers crossed.
-Finally we get back the Deathwatch (Xenos)+Grey Knight Termis (Malleus)+Sisters (Hereticus) trinity, with transport options as well, just like I had hoped for.
-No multipart inquisitor is a big loss. Instead, we got a new Torquemada Coteaz mini, but its a serious downgrade compared to the original model.
-The battleforces are decent. I'd probably get the hereticus since I dont have an immolator yet, and I'm interested in all the other content but Greyfax (already owned).
-4 detachments. Only shown one, the Navy one. Looks very weak on rules for big scale battles though. We may perhaps get a Combat Patrol navy themed, similar to the old Boarding Patrol, following the steps of Adepta Sororitas one.
-Requisitioned troops. We may field Grey Knight Termis/sisters/deathwatch with imperial armies through Imperial Agents army rules, in addition to the retinue and characters.
Overall, great news. Could be better, but it could definitely be worse. "The emprah protects!"
As a primarily Deathwatch player, I'm a little bummed, but unsurprised. I've long wanted the army to be more Inquisition so while so much of my Space Marines are going to become an omni-chapter, I'm definitely interested in what's on offer. I've even got a small set of Sisters and GK from my beloved 8th soup Inquisition.
My big question and concern here is entirely whether GW treats this as a real faction or just an Isle for Lost Toys. I'm definitely interested in the potential, but I need to see this isn't just another temporary whim for GW to abandon in a couple years.
LunarSol wrote: As a primarily Deathwatch player, I'm a little bummed, but unsurprised. I've long wanted the army to be more Inquisition so while so much of my Space Marines are going to become an omni-chapter, I'm definitely interested in what's on offer. I've even got a small set of Sisters and GK from my beloved 8th soup Inquisition.
My big question and concern here is entirely whether GW treats this as a real faction or just an Isle for Lost Toys. I'm definitely interested in the potential, but I need to see this isn't just another temporary whim for GW to abandon in a couple years.
Same. Even if its weak one, I want to consistently have my imperial soup an available option, not a off and on across editions. I hope it gets consistent, it deserves to be. Hopefully, this is a start of it.
This dex sounds like it's going to be decent- like perhaps the best take on Agents in the current era (8th-10th).
Shadow Operations Crusade content!
That was a must -have for me, and I'm glad they've finally done it. I do agree with OP that we should have had a multi-part generic Inquisitor who could be built as any of the Ordos.
I'm indifferent to Coteaz 2.0 - I don't like the resting weapon/ resting shield look on any mini, so I prefer the previous pose... But I really like the fact that the Psyber eagle is a separate piece now, and those two competing impressions cancel each other out, leaving my attitude neutral.
That Malleus CP box looks pretty good though- the only GK I have are from the Hexfire box, and this lets me add terminators to that collection, gets me a GW Cullexus assassin (I have the Wargames Exclusive Cullexus) and Chimera, which I wanted for Krieg and all the Henchmen I need to round out the collection, plus Coteaz.
The other boxes are good too, but I wish the DW in the Xenos box were Termies, because the DW upgrade sprue only has 2 Termie/ Gravis shoulder pads, so you need 3 sprues for a unit, and then you end up with one spare.
And of course, I already have Greyfax and Draxus. Really liking the way Chambers Militant can be classified as Agent units for the Assigned Agents ability.
And yes, absolutely stoked about improved access to transports, and of course full inquisition detachments.
Help me with comprehension. Did I understand this army can include a detachment from ANY imperium keyword army? Does that include Custodes? Space Wolves?
EDIT : Nope, got it back wards. Any imperial force can include a detachment of these guys.
In the words of Bruce Banner. "Oh, Oh No....This is much worse."
I've always liked the Blackstar model, but Deathwatch just doesn't interest me. Thus no need to spend $ on it....
So here's hoping I can use the assigned agents rule to put a Corvus Blackstar into one of my other armies & it has the right KWs to allow it to transport units from said other army.
Will GW finally get $ out of me for a Blackstar?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Help me with comprehension. Did I understand this army can include a detachment from ANY imperium keyword army? Does that include Custodes? Space Wolves?
EDIT : Nope, got it back wards. Any imperial force can include a detachment of these guys.
In the words of Bruce Banner. "Oh, Oh No....This is much worse."
The other boxes are good too, but I wish the DW in the Xenos box were Termies, because the DW upgrade sprue only has 2 Termie/ Gravis shoulder pads, so you need 3 sprues for a unit, and then you end up with one spare.
DW Termies no longer exist from what I'm reading. I suspect the upgrade sprue is also going away as the Vets have shoulder pads built in the kit.
New Coteaz - not a fan. Still prefer the llder model, even if its misproportioned now
Otherwise, this dex basically allows me to make an army out of all the Imperial units I have besides Marines. So I wouldnät need new models to field this (all that much hehe)
Sorry, was really tired and read the article on my phone. I thought it was another brood brothers fiasco, where they could requisition anything in the galaxy with an "imperial" keyword.
Coteaz is a very unfortunate sculpt and the rest is just old stuff in new bundles. Nothing particularly exciting as far as I'm concerned. Fingers crossed for all you disgruntled GK players that the codex is decent at least.
BertBert wrote: Coteaz is a very unfortunate sculpt and the rest is just old stuff in new bundles. Nothing particularly exciting as far as I'm concerned. Fingers crossed for all you disgruntled GK players that the codex is decent at least.
Just sucks that there won't be an actual GK codex until 2025 at the earliest. =(
BertBert wrote: Coteaz is a very unfortunate sculpt and the rest is just old stuff in new bundles. Nothing particularly exciting as far as I'm concerned. Fingers crossed for all you disgruntled GK players that the codex is decent at least.
Just sucks that there won't be an actual GK codex until 2025 at the earliest. =(
As my own GK list is working just fine that means I've got another year to enjoy it.
Don't like the Corteaz model at all, they really dropped the ball with that one, adding a huge strap to his chest to avoid sculpting any of the old detail. Amalgamating all the weird Imperial-offshots into one book isn't a bad idea IMO, I just hope the units actually get a bit of flavour rather than "here's some Guardsmen-equivalent stats and a generic rule which will probably never come into play, and also one model must take a crappy CCW because we just ported it straight from Kill Team".
Valkyrie wrote: Don't like the Corteaz model at all, they really dropped the ball with that one, adding a huge strap to his chest to avoid sculpting any of the old detail. Amalgamating all the weird Imperial-offshots into one book isn't a bad idea IMO, I just hope the units actually get a bit of flavour rather than "here's some Guardsmen-equivalent stats and a generic rule which will probably never come into play, and also one model must take a crappy CCW because we just ported it straight from Kill Team".
"Get used to disappointment". This is literally the way of all Non-power armored Imperial troop units. Anything not a 10' hulking space virgin wolf/vampire/bureaucrat, is a 3/3 guardsman. Its so bad even the Chaos cultists are the exact same, disregarding their warp given powers.
the average cultist wouldn't have warp powers. cultists represent the people at the absolute bottom of the hierarchy. even in a game with a much wider array of stats, cultists would be sitting below guardsmen
on the other hand, navy breachers being guardsmen with different abilities makes sense because for all intents and purposes, they are guardsmen, just with a different battlefield (space)
No I didn't mean they are tossing witch bolts, I was pointing to the fact that some of them have the warp flowing through them. The servants of the warp are powerful. They may not be ascended warp entities, but they are more powerful than a lone guards person.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: No I didn't mean they are tossing witch bolts, I was pointing to the fact that some of them have the warp flowing through them. The servants of the warp are powerful. They may not be ascended warp entities, but they are more powerful than a lone guards person.
Theyre litterally not, cultists are meat that is serving greater powers in hopes of a better life, while these greater powers see them as simple tools.
If you want chaos touched cultists, you need accursed cultists, which are possessed-light, or the Dark commune, which are regular humans that are somewhat warp-touched
yeah those 20-man blobs of cultists aren't the ones running around with warp powers, or else they wouldn't be in the 20-man blobs of cultists. if they get any modicum of power, their role changes and they stop being disposable chaff
Ok, table top, they don't. I was talking about justifying them getting a buff to make them slightly more powerful than a standard guard trooper. Which reflects the fluff slightly better. A Chaos Cultist is always treated as exceptionally dangerous in the fluff. It wouldn't be hard to make them all swing with a S4, which would be an extremely small buff over guard, but thematically fit.
BertBert wrote: Coteaz is a very unfortunate sculpt and the rest is just old stuff in new bundles. Nothing particularly exciting as far as I'm concerned. Fingers crossed for all you disgruntled GK players that the codex is decent at least.
Just sucks that there won't be an actual GK codex until 2025 at the earliest. =(
Better to get your own 'dex in 2025 than get shot in t'head and rolled into this Agents book.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: A Chaos Cultist is always treated as exceptionally dangerous in the fluff.
This is categorically untrue. A Chaos Cult, yes because it represents the enemy within trying to take down the Imperium. An actual Cultist? No, they are literally just normal people.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, table top, they don't. I was talking about justifying them getting a buff to make them slightly more powerful than a standard guard trooper. Which reflects the fluff slightly better. A Chaos Cultist is always treated as exceptionally dangerous in the fluff. It wouldn't be hard to make them all swing with a S4, which would be an extremely small buff over guard, but thematically fit.
No? I mean, they are dangerous, in the same way anyone with a knife and a rifle is dangerous. But they're (generally speaking) not as well-trained or equipped as a Guardsman. Their current statline of T3, S3, 6+ is perfectly fine for their place in the lore.
The main job of Cultists is to soak up bullets; the general plan being to have more Cultists than the enemy has bullets. Not unlike the Guard's plan, just with even less empathy.
Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.
These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.
Gert wrote:Hey, they have the protection of the Gods. That's worth a thousand flak vests.
And the Imperial Guard has the Emperor's protection. Which is exactly what both need because no one sane would set foot anywhere near what the 41st Millennium has to throw at them without such beliefs.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.
These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.
Not explicitly, but the article talks about how you add Deathwatch to standard Marine armies and then clearly states there's going to be a Grey Knights codex.
So, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Codex: Deathwatch...
So they already moved one named character to this, which is Watch Captain Artemis. So It might make sense that Drago and the rest would fall in there as well. I think there will be cutting though. Mostly felt on the GK side. Do they really need two different NDKs? Or a completely different Thunderhawk?
Call me a chicken Little, but I see about 50% of the characters staying, and the basic troops/Elites. The weird DW flyer thing is obviously staying, so that leaves a GK Rhino, a GK flyer, both types of their GMDK, their Thunderhawk, and their GK Landraider. I see them keeping their Rhino.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.
These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.
Not explicitly, but the article talks about how you add Deathwatch to standard Marine armies and then clearly states there's going to be a Grey Knights codex.
So, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Codex: Deathwatch...
The funny/sad thing about DW/GK is that the GK struggle to get near 'chapter' strength due to their candidate/neophyte requirements. Meanwhile there are not only entire watch-houses of DW, I remember reading that the early Indomitus Crusade lore specifically states that RG created multiple, entire "Chapters", as in 1000 marine units, of DW from the unallocated Primaris influx.
Now, I'm a GK fanboy through and through, but it really seems like it should be the opposite here. DW getting their own codex, while GK getting relegated to "supporting units", as they were originally.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So they already moved one named character to this, which is Watch Captain Artemis. So It might make sense that Drago and the rest would fall in there as well. I think there will be cutting though. Mostly felt on the GK side. Do they really need two different NDKs? Or a completely different Thunderhawk?
Call me a chicken Little, but I see about 50% of the characters staying, and the basic troops/Elites. The weird DW flyer thing is obviously staying, so that leaves a GK Rhino, a GK flyer, both types of their GMDK, their Thunderhawk, and their GK Landraider. I see them keeping their Rhino.
That seems at odds with what the article says. It looks like GK and SoB are getting a couple of units included to act as their requisitioned units (Terminators for GK and Battle Sisters with Immolators and Rhinos for SoB). Given that GK are still due their own Codex, as per this very article, I'd be surprised to see more than just the Terminators here.
It would be interesting to see sisters, who have been plagued by AT issues, suddenly able to pull a bunch of GK tanks into their lists. Or DW. That's actually kinda scary. Also, not gonna lie, the Sisters would be far too up on their high horse to accept GK Psykers into their midst.
So now we need to push Custodes into this book as well.
GK and sisters are still going to be their own armies. as i understand it, IA is going to present the option to soup both of them into its own lists, or soup DW (or the other stuff in the army) into other armies. not really mixing the two, or at least so it sounds
We don't know how it's going to work exactly but the chances are units from GK and SoB are going to be tied to the Ordo detachments rather than allowing them to be freely taken as Agents.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It would be interesting to see sisters, who have been plagued by AT issues, suddenly able to pull a bunch of GK tanks into their lists. Or DW. That's actually kinda scary. Also, not gonna lie, the Sisters would be far too up on their high horse to accept GK Psykers into their midst.
So now we need to push Custodes into this book as well.
Again, that's not how the article says it works. It looks like you can ally units from the Imperial Agents book into your GK or Sisters armies. That doesn't allow SoB to get access to GK Land Raiders, as far as we can tell from the article. The implication is the only GK unit in the IA book will be Terminators and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a caveat that prevents the GK and SoB units being allied into other Imperium armies using this book.
It does highlight the main problem with these kind of books, though. Once you start expanding access to units outside of a given Codex you run the risk of upsetting balance by plugging deliberate gaps in an army. That was one of the biggest problems with souping in previous editions. Hopefully we don't see the same thing here.
To be fair, with the modern detachment system you could easily have a Space Marine army painted as Deathwatch for all the tanks and the like and then the Kill Teams?
Guys- reread the article. Yes, it's a little confusing. Also yes, WARCOM can be unreliable where rules are concerned, so even what it it says may not turn out to be true. But there is a lot of information here that can be figured out.
In the old Index, we had retinue units and characters. They've added a new unit type: Requisitioned units.
We know that GK Termies and BSS are requisitioned units and that DWKT's are retinue Units. The article tells us this clearly.
When you use the Assigned Agents rule to attach IA to other Imperial Armies, for 1k or less, you get one of each type- one Retinue Unit (we know that this can be DWKT or Hench; it can also likely be Arbites, Navy, or Voidsmen, but the article does not specifically say that). One Character Unit- could be an Inquisitor, a Watchmaster, Artemis, a Priest, an Assassin, a Rogue Trader or a Navigator- there may be others, but again, the article is clear that at least these characters are present. Finally, you get one requistioned unit- and the only two we know for sure are available are GK Termies and BSS, though we know BSS can be mounted in an Immo. Scions and SoS do have precident is Requisitioned units in the Ashes of Faith KT set, so there is a chance they will appear there too.
At 2k, you get an extra retinue unit and an extra character.
At 3k, you get 2 extra retinue units, 2 extra characters and one extra requisitioned unit.
That means that according to this article we KNOW that one or two units of GK Termies or BSS (depending on game size) can be souped into another army as Assigned Agents. The article explicitly says so (although again, Warcom has been wrong about rules in the past).
Importantly, when using the Assigned Agents rule, there is no need to identify the IA forces by Keyword- you don't have to say that they're all Ordo Xenos, or Ordo Malleus or Navy; they're just a group of agents. Hopefully, GW came up with a rule that allows Assigned Agents to use the detachment rulesof the Faction to which they are attached; if not, we get the same problem we have right now- no enhancements or strats for any of the Agents.
DW are likely to be insulated from that effect if the Faction they attach to is Space Marines, because they will still likely have the Astartes Keyword. So even if GW doesn't write rules specifically giving Agents access to the detachment rules, DW will likely still be able to use them as long as the Host Army is SM.
Now, if you use one of the IA detachments, the limits on how many units of each type you can use don't apply, so a Xenos detachment could field 6 DWKT's, Artemis, a Watch Captain, an Inquisitor with a retinue, a couple squads of breachers, a Rogue Trader, and any/ all could be mounted in Blackstars.
And of course, they'll have Oro Xenos detachment rules too.
What IS unclear is whether there are any other Sisters or GK units available as Requisitioned Agents. I don't think there will be, because as the article points out with Sisters and GK, you're just better off to add Agent units to those armies with the Attached Agents rule, in which case ANY Sisters or GK unit is fair game, but the Agents that accompany them may be overcosted and underpowered unless GW fixed the situation that prevents them from using the detachment rules of their host army.
What I think I'd like to see is that Assigned Agents CAN use the detachment rule of their host armies, but only when it's an Ordo/ Chamber match- so Assigned Agents that identify as Hereticus can use detachment rules IF they are attached to Sisters, but not if they're attached to other armies.
That may be too restrictive- especially since the Navy units don't have a Chamber. Another way to solve the problem is by making Guard a count-as-chamber for any Agent. This would mean that Inquisition Assigned Agents could use the detachment rules of EITHER a Chamber Host army OR a Guard host Army, where Navy only have the option to use the Detachment rules of a Guard host army.
So yes, there is some vague stuff in the article, but there's also a lot of stuff that isn't as vague as people are making it, assuming Warcom got it right.
Kanluwen wrote: Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.
Agree to disagree.
Many small narrative games are perfect for Navy and Arbites inclusion. I think it's fair to say that GW should add HQ units for both Navy and Arbites in order to make the inclusion of these factions better, and I think that's really easy to do with a 40k Warhammer Quest game and downloadable PDFs.
And remember, them being included in this book doesn't mean GW intended for them to be used as full armies- the Attached Agent Rule still exists. And yes, when it is determined that a witch needs to be taken alive and imprisoned, it is absolutely appropriate and fluffy AF for an Inquisitor to bring a unit or two of Arbites with him to assist the sisters, whether you think so or not. This was well established in the 3rd ed Witch Hunters book.
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Navy and Rogue Traders should have their own book. On Turn one I fire all my capital ships port batteries onto the planet surface. Thats 106 Wounds. On turn two the survivors get the Starboard batteries. Lance Strikes should be S500 AP50 D1000 right, Blast, obviously. Lethal hits?
I don't think that the allies going into other armies will be able to use any detachment rules, other than DW into a SM army as they will probably retain "Astartes" keyword, but I bet they don't get oath. (See, Plague Marines/Rubics how they can get the detachment abilities though
"Heretic Astartes" keyword but not dark pacts.) GW does not want allies to be must take units like where for a while in 8th and 9th and so you will probably have to use those units on the strength of the datasheets, which for Battle Sisters or GK terminators, I don't know if that really adds anything (maybe terminators in a guard army for come CC punch). The inquisitors might have more ways to interact with allied units with abilities on their data sheet. I wouldn't hold my breath that this book will be all that competitive either as allies, or as a stand alone. I think this will just be a fun book if you want to add some cool allies for flavor, or play a fun narrative IA list, but I wouldn't expect it to shake up the competitive meta (which I think is actually ok, not everything needs to be competitive meta hyper-tuned)
Kanluwen wrote: Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.
Agree to disagree.
Many small narrative games are perfect for Navy and Arbites inclusion. I think it's fair to say that GW should add HQ units for both Navy and Arbites in order to make the inclusion of these factions better, and I think that's really easy to do with a 40k Warhammer Quest game and downloadable PDFs.
Which has what to do with the "Imperial Agents"?
And remember, them being included in this book doesn't mean GW intended for them to be used as full armies
And remember that this book is a continuation of a scheme started in 7th. We literally had Imperial Agents brought in then, with the majority of it being them filling in "oopsies".
Y'know, things like Cult Mechanicus not having been given Servitors or Techpriest Enginseers?
Heck, they even had the Officer of the Fleet as a separate HQ!
the Attached Agent Rule still exists
. Great, but so what?
And yes, when it is determined that a witch needs to be taken alive and imprisoned, it is absolutely appropriate and fluffy AF for an Inquisitor to bring a unit or two of Arbites with him to assist the sisters, whether you think so or not. This was well established in the 3rd ed Witch Hunters book.
Was it actually established, or was it suggested as part of the whole "Adversaries" set up?
It's been a long time since I had that codex, but IIRC that was after Arbites ceased to exist as a playable unit.
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Then what is the point?!
If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Then what is the point?!
If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!
Units that work well at 2000 points don't necessarily work as well at 1000 points, like several varieties of Imperial/Chaos Knights. Even a Land Raider might feel out of place in a 1000-point game, since it and its occupants will likely run in the neighborhood of 500 points.
cut land raiders, and terminators while we're at it. oh, and any big model that's more than 300ish points, since those are really unwieldy in small games. greater demons, knights, big vehicles. oh, and IG tanks, since they're going to feel out of place without all that other big stuff. custodes are really awkward at low point games, so they need to be cut, too
we can really scale down the scope of the game if we keep this up!
Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.
I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?
You could upgrade ISTs to Arbites by replacing their hellgun and targeter with a shotgun, but that explicitly made them Arbites and the book said OH ‘often’ called upon them.
Codex: Witch Hunters wrote:The Ordo Hereticus often call upon the Adeptus Arbites to aid them in their work, using them to round up known criminals and screen them for signs of deeper corruption. Hence Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads may be used to represent squads of the Adeptus Arbites by replacing each trooper’s hellgun and targeter with a shotgun at no extra cost. All other options are unchanged.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.
These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.
What they did say (emphasis added)
Those familiar with their current rules will recognise the Assigned Agents army rule, which allows a certain number of units from the book to be added to other IMPERIUM armies. This roster has been expanded to help fill out your Ordo Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus presence, with Deathwatch Kill Teams joining the RETINUE units.
The new Codex also features Watch Masters, Corvus Blackstars, and Watch Captain Artemis (returning to the range after an absence), so you can include a full Deathwatch contingent in any IMPERIUM army, complete with leaders, squads, and transports. Those with full Deathwatch Space Marine armies needn’t worry – they can add the Deathwatch-specific units to a Space Marine army of black-clad units like Intercessors and Terminators, melding the strong foundations and Detachments of Codex: Space Marines with themed specialists from Codex: Imperial Agents.
That is Deathwatch Characters (Watch Masters and Watch Captain Artemis), Retinue (Deathwatch Kill Teams), and Dedicated Transports (At least the Corvus Blackstar). This makes me pretty sure there will not be a Codex: Deathwatch in 10th Edition. Every other unit in Index Deathwatch is probably a victim of NMNR.
Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.
I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?
You could upgrade ISTs to Arbites by replacing their hellgun and targeter with a shotgun, but that explicitly made them Arbites and the book said OH ‘often’ called upon them.
Codex: Witch Hunters wrote:The Ordo Hereticus often call upon the Adeptus Arbites to aid them in their work, using them to round up known criminals and screen them for signs of deeper corruption. Hence Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads may be used to represent squads of the Adeptus Arbites by replacing each trooper’s hellgun and targeter with a shotgun at no extra cost. All other options are unchanged.
So it's like I said. You didn't actually take Arbites, they just gave you a fluffy bit.
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Then what is the point?!
If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!
Units that work well at 2000 points don't necessarily work as well at 1000 points, like several varieties of Imperial/Chaos Knights. Even a Land Raider might feel out of place in a 1000-point game, since it and its occupants will likely run in the neighborhood of 500 points.
Things not working at different points isn't the same as purposely building things that won't work outside of, say, Combat Patrol or Kill Team.
Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.
I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?
You could upgrade ISTs to Arbites by replacing their hellgun and targeter with a shotgun, but that explicitly made them Arbites and the book said OH ‘often’ called upon them.
Codex: Witch Hunters wrote:The Ordo Hereticus often call upon the Adeptus Arbites to aid them in their work, using them to round up known criminals and screen them for signs of deeper corruption. Hence Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads may be used to represent squads of the Adeptus Arbites by replacing each trooper’s hellgun and targeter with a shotgun at no extra cost. All other options are unchanged.
So it's like I said. You didn't actually take Arbites, they just gave you a fluffy bit.
Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.
Then what is the point?!
If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!
Units that work well at 2000 points don't necessarily work as well at 1000 points, like several varieties of Imperial/Chaos Knights. Even a Land Raider might feel out of place in a 1000-point game, since it and its occupants will likely run in the neighborhood of 500 points.
Things not working at different points isn't the same as purposely building things that won't work outside of, say, Combat Patrol or Kill Team.
No, you used the rules of IST with shotguns to represent Arbites, but lore wise they were explicitly Arbites (there wasn’t an option for shotguns outside the ‘representing Arbites’ boxout).
Model wise there were no models for ISTs with shotguns. You had to use the old Adeptus Arbites models or Necromunda Enforcers (or convert something else from scratch).
Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
Gert wrote: Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
You're joking, right?
First off: I wanted clarification on whether or not my memory was correct. It seems that yes, my memory was correct in that it allowed for you to use Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with a specific loadout to represent a unit that did not exist in any army at the time.
Second: I was asked where I would place Arbites. Even with this supposed special tie to the Ordo Hereticus, I'd still put them into Guard. We have a whole category for "Auxilia" where Arbites and PDF could be placed.
Auxiliaries is a nice way of saying "Abhumans" because as you will notice, that's what's in that category, Ogryns and Ratlings (and sanctioned Beastmen technically).
They're part of the Militarum structure, just not Guardsmen.
The Arbites (as well as the Navy and Rogue Traders) are not part of the Militarum, and it wouldn't make sense to be in that Codex.
Gert wrote: Auxiliaries is a nice way of saying "Abhumans" because as you will notice, that's what's in that category, Ogryns and Ratlings (and sanctioned Beastmen technically).
They're part of the Militarum structure, just not Guardsmen.
Just like:
-Commissars
-Scions
-Enginseers
-Ministorum Priests
-Psykers
Important to note that I didn't say those things were part of the Guard. I simply suggested that they could be used as Auxilia, since it's basically an unused concept at this juncture. There's the legacy items in the form of the abhumans, but there's nothing stopping the concept being expanded to other items.
Also, there's a difference between the "Auxilia" and "Auxiliaries". Auxilia's a term that gets used for Guard forces operating outside of their regiments. Things like the Ultramar Auxilia or the Auric Auxilia for example.
The Arbites (as well as the Navy and Rogue Traders) are not part of the Militarum, and it wouldn't make sense to be in that Codex.
Again, nowhere have I suggested that these things are part of the Militarum. Just that given the concepts constantly thrown at us about these things being jammed into the game, they fit better into Guard since they also keep blathering about how these forces constantly work with the Guard.
if they're part of the guard codex, then they can't be added to other lists. you're restricting them which goes against the lore. it's just a bad argument, dude
Gert wrote: Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
Gert wrote: Kan, are you seriously arguing that the dude's whose job it is to hunt down heretics, mutants, and traitors to the Imperium wouldn't actively work with the Ordo Hereticus the arm of the Inquisition responsible for hunting down heretics, mutants, and traitors?
You're joking, right?
I think the proper term is trolling.
I'm new to forums, so I've been assuming that it's impolite to point that out about someone, even when it's obvious
Kanluwen wrote: Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.
Then where would you put them?
Nowhere. I don't really see how any of these aren't just variations of units already available in the IG Index.
That actually is something that I think would really help the game going forward. Many units and armies that are just tiny varieties of each other can easily be put under a single profile and into a single book. The issue with that is that it would massively hit sales if there weren't a dozen Marine armies that all basically are the same thing with tiny variations and many units that essentially serve the same purpose and could easily just be an equipment upgrade or the like.
Kanluwen wrote: Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.
Then where would you put them?
Nowhere. I don't really see how any of these aren't just variations of units already available in the IG Index.
That actually is something that I think would really help the game going forward. Many units and armies that are just tiny varieties of each other can easily be put under a single profile and into a single book. The issue with that is that it would massively hit sales if there weren't a dozen Marine armies that all basically are the same thing with tiny variations and many units that essentially serve the same purpose and could easily just be an equipment upgrade or the like.
Even for SM I'm not sure if that's true. Is the cost of producing all these random extra units like Inner Circle Companions actually worth that much to GW compared to just using the more generic Bladeguard? It's especially questionable when the rules for those units are bad, which leads to lower sales. SM have a lot of problems with this kind of unit overlap. So many "unique" units are really just a generic unit with one or two special rules added, or could be represented in that way. Inner Circle Companions are basically Bladeguard, so why not just make DA Bladeguard units ICC by using the base unit rules with some minor modifications. The same applies to things like Death Company, which are fundamentally veterans with an ability swap and different weapon options. I think there are much more elegant ways GW could handle these kind of units that would still retain their flavour but also streamline the rules a little.
When it comes to things like Arbites, I really don't think GW are making enough profit on these things to not at least consider whether they really need to exist in 40k as a distinct unit with its own rules. Maybe they are, but that doesn't change my opinion on how these things should be handled from a gameplay perspective.
GW used to provide upgrade sprues for various SM chapters, allowing you to take any of the regular SM units and add some chapter-specific stuff to make them look distinct even while using the same rules as everyone else. It worked well in terms of giving armies characterful looks relatively cheaply without leading to loads of rules bloat and overlapping unit roles.
Codex: Witch hunters was from the same edition as the last Arbites army list. They were phasing that list out but I don't think it was actually officially discontinued at that point (I think this happened in a FAQ somewhere).
Gert wrote: Auxiliaries is a nice way of saying "Abhumans" because as you will notice, that's what's in that category, Ogryns and Ratlings (and sanctioned Beastmen technically).
They're part of the Militarum structure, just not Guardsmen.
Just like:
-Commissars
-Scions
-Enginseers
-Ministorum Priests
-Psykers
Important to note that I didn't say those things were part of the Guard. I simply suggested that they could be used as Auxilia, since it's basically an unused concept at this juncture. There's the legacy items in the form of the abhumans, but there's nothing stopping the concept being expanded to other items.
Also, there's a difference between the "Auxilia" and "Auxiliaries". Auxilia's a term that gets used for Guard forces operating outside of their regiments. Things like the Ultramar Auxilia or the Auric Auxilia for example.
The Arbites (as well as the Navy and Rogue Traders) are not part of the Militarum, and it wouldn't make sense to be in that Codex.
Again, nowhere have I suggested that these things are part of the Militarum. Just that given the concepts constantly thrown at us about these things being jammed into the game, they fit better into Guard since they also keep blathering about how these forces constantly work with the Guard.
The Ultramar Auxilia is a PDF (which is functionally an Ultramarines Chapter serf outfit) and the Auric Auxilia are a Chapter serf unit for the Imperial Fists that has been recruiting from the Guard since the Great Rift. They are a different use of the term Auxilia to actual Imperial Guard Auxilia. Here they are considered auxiliary to Space Marines, not to Guardsmen.
I can see Navy units being rolled into the Guard book. They are much more likely to be found fighting in similar environments, Naval infantry is analogous to a specialised Guard force, and both come under the same command structure of the Departmento Munitorum. It would be very nice to see a Ratings boarding party unit to support the elite armsmen, especially as conscripts have been deleted, but ho hum. All of those units mentioned above also have defined structures for how they interact with or are assigned to the Guard. For example, whilst Scions are technically separate, they have to obey orders from a senior Guard officer. Below the high command level, the Navy is a little separate as a parallel arm, but I can see temporary arrangements being common at lower levels.
Lorewise Arbites are separate though, and do make more sense in an Agents book or as their own force. They only share similarities to the Guard in the way they are human infantry. Arbites have a separate command structure and their own interstellar transportation. They work closely with the Inquisition on many cases.
This would be less of an issue if the proxy options hadn't been closed down. When you could take Guard units with carapace armour and shotguns you could just run Arbites and Armsmen as these.
Even for SM I'm not sure if that's true. Is the cost of producing all these random extra units like Inner Circle Companions actually worth that much to GW compared to just using the more generic Bladeguard? It's especially questionable when the rules for those units are bad, which leads to lower sales. SM have a lot of problems with this kind of unit overlap.
A poster in a dofferwnt thread makes a convincing outline on why financially GW makes such a proliferation of new boxes.
GW literally pays off those molds in the preorders. Molds aren't cheap, but GW makes a lot of money because their market share is basically uncontested.
This way you can't magnetize them. I guarantee some bean counter realized that the extra $45k for three more molds (each dread is three sprues, that doesn't mean three molds, but I am assuming the worst) was a drop in the bucket compared to forcing people to buy three models for each dread type - instead of using 5$ of magnets to do whatever combo you want like you can on a rhino. GW takes 55% of retail, and makes about $37 ($80*.55 - $6 sprues and - $1 for the packaging) so they only have to sell about 1200 boxes to make that mold cost back (preorders are higher then that guaranteed since limited boxes run about 2000 units and are gone in less then 5 minutes).
That $45k cost is nothing in the scope of their revenue of ~$610,800,000 (~470,800,000 pounds) with their Net Profit (pure cash after absolutely everything taken out including wages, upgrades to buildings/machinery, taxes, materials and whatever) of ~$201,700,000 (~155,500,000 pounds) in 2023.
This tactic of spending a drop of money on more molds to make more specific sprues (to get you to buy more models) is also why:
The obnoxious bs with killing tac squads in favor of several, single pose/loadout easy builds (can't proxy a squad if they are actually different models/sheets vs just a weapon swap - congratulations, you now need to purchase four separate squads of infantry to even play those same loadouts causally).
The two walker bug things in the necron codex are not the same size (No proxy/magnets for you).
Various Primaris tanks are not the same size. You have to buy impulsors and repulsers to field them both despite the fact the only real difference is the repulser is bigger (No proxy/magnets for you).
Primaris are separate sheets from firstborn instead of a "quiet" upscale/updetail to existing sheets (Makes people replace some units up to whole armies to keep playing). The excuse "oh just use the squatted firstborn as the Primaris sheets" is pandering bs, they know you can't do that in practice, even in casual play, let alone if you want to go to some event.
Money is the only thing GW gives a flying feth about, and it's important to remember that so we can call them out for their predatory behaviors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and to be clear, that $37 dollars is only if you buy from a third party (FLGS, Amazon). Buying directly from the site is $73 of revenue.....
A customer with six bladeguard already is more likely to buy a box of Inner Circle than a third box of bladeguard. GW knows they'll do enough volume to cover the fixed cost of the Companions, and they'll move more total units when they make both Companions and bladeguard than they will with just bladeguard.
It's not good for you if you want to play the main 40k game. It's definitely a good business decision though.
Even for SM I'm not sure if that's true. Is the cost of producing all these random extra units like Inner Circle Companions actually worth that much to GW compared to just using the more generic Bladeguard? It's especially questionable when the rules for those units are bad, which leads to lower sales. SM have a lot of problems with this kind of unit overlap.
Yes it is, otherwise a) GW wouldn't do it, and b) GW wouldn't be more successful than the next five table top gaming companies combined.
You do understand that there are at least as many players who want and expansive sandbox of a game and the catalogue of models required to do that as there are that merely want a nice, tight, balanced competitive game, right?
Because again, if that were not true, a) GW would alter their policies b) GW would be less successful.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: cut land raiders, and terminators while we're at it. oh, and any big model that's more than 300ish points, since those are really unwieldy in small games. greater demons, knights, big vehicles. oh, and IG tanks, since they're going to feel out of place without all that other big stuff. custodes are really awkward at low point games, so they need to be cut, too
we can really scale down the scope of the game if we keep this up!
Not going to lie, I know you're being hyperbolic to raise a point, but there is a faction of players who do feel that certain large units, we'll call them Superheavies, do not, and should not, exist in table top 40k. Primarchs, Angels and demons, and Baneblades/like. Thats it.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: cut land raiders, and terminators while we're at it. oh, and any big model that's more than 300ish points, since those are really unwieldy in small games. greater demons, knights, big vehicles. oh, and IG tanks, since they're going to feel out of place without all that other big stuff. custodes are really awkward at low point games, so they need to be cut, too
we can really scale down the scope of the game if we keep this up!
Not going to lie, I know you're being hyperbolic to raise a point, but there is a faction of players who do feel that certain large units, we'll call them Superheavies, do not, and should not, exist in table top 40k. Primarchs, Angels and demons, and Baneblades/like. Thats it.
Its never going to happen - but I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world.
I mean if you have a cap of 300~ points (with maybe a couple of borderline essentials) - there's not much outside it. 3 of the 4 Greater Daemons are in. Belakor would need to be modestly tuned down (or kept as an exception). Most Tanks I think would be in. It would really just be Knights, Daemon Primarchs and Superheavies. Which could still be in the game - their rules would just have to be toned down from 400-500 points to 300.
But as said, its not going to happen.
I do think though you have an issue at the moment with say factions like Imperial Agents. You've got a range of cool (imo) units... equipped mostly with lasguns, bolters and shotguns. Which... basically don't do anything with better than T4 and a 4+ save. Which is an ever growing percentage of 40k's food chain. If someone were to run against you with mass Kroot, Cultists, Termagants etc then I think you could have a fun game. If they don't? Well, a lot of your units are just going to have to hope to die slowly on objectives.
The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
GW keep making these big centre piece models - presumably because they sell. So they aren't going to stop having rules that encourage people (or at least don't stop people) from buying them.
Its a bit like the 3 year edition/codex cycle. Its mainly a marketing strategy. Based on GW's results and share price, it works, and they aren't going to stop unless that changes.
We may perhaps get a Combat Patrol navy themed, similar to the old Boarding Patrol, following the steps of Adepta Sororitas one.
VanTarrion's Voidsmen has been quietly added to the app - two ten man breacher units (given the 'patrol squads' rule), a ten man voidsman unit and a rogue trader retinue.
That doesn't mean it'll appear as a box set, of course.
We may perhaps get a Combat Patrol navy themed, similar to the old Boarding Patrol, following the steps of Adepta Sororitas one.
VanTarrion's Voidsmen has been quietly added to the app - two ten man breacher units (given the 'patrol squads' rule), a ten man voidsman unit and a rogue trader retinue.
That doesn't mean it'll appear as a box set, of course.
The voidsmen are a weird unit - they may take up to ten figures, but the box cones with 5 monopose models and a dog. And according to my app, just adding the dog increases the unit's cost from 50 to 100 :/
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The majority of the most bloated faction in the game (SM) is mostly S4/5 with T4/5. Sub S/T6 I mean. It's really not hard to imagine limiting 40k to a "Large scale (1-2k) game of Kill Team".
Basically tanks and larger would be rare. Primarchs and Belakor would be non-existent.
So screw Guard and Daemons, I guess?
It's Fezzik, you don't need to take any of their suggestions seriously.
I wouldn't mind heavily restricting or removing superheavies, flyers and Primarchs as I think they present problems that make the game less engaging or just lead to really odd rules compromises. There's no way you can reduce that down to the level of all tanks (and presumably monsters). I'd also argue it's another good reason to reintroduce some form of Force Organisation Chart to try to push armies away from skew.
Something like you can’d spend more then 50% of your points on a single unit/model would curb some of the worst outliers in small games.
I would not mind a return to the days where a LR or monolith was the largest thing you were likely to see. But I acknowledge that the cat’s kinda out of the bag on that one. Giant army faction centerpieces are fun to own/paint, but they should be reserved for big games, not everday use. IMHO. But I’m an old grognard like that.
I just picked up a copy of Combat Arena: Lair of the Beast at Barnes and Nobles bookstore for $35. It includes all the Blackstone Fortesss minis plus an Ambull, but I'm only really interested in the Rogue Trader, Navigator, Priest, and Missionary.
The Missionary looks to be a part of Hereticus and the Priest in Malleus. They're both considered Ministorum Priests in their totally different datasheets in Sisters and Guard though. Have any box contents listed what is what exactly?
Nightlord1987 wrote: I just picked up a copy of Combat Arena: Lair of the Beast at Barnes and Nobles bookstore for $35. It includes all the Blackstone Fortesss minis plus an Ambull, but I'm only really interested in the Rogue Trader, Navigator, Priest, and Missionary.
The Missionary looks to be a part of Hereticus and the Priest in Malleus. They're both considered Ministorum Priests in their totally different datasheets in Sisters and Guard though. Have any box contents listed what is what exactly?
By their BSF and Combat Arena model names:
Pious Vorne has the Zealot's Vindicator and is the default weapon for the Adepta Sorotitas Mininstorum Priest.
Thaddus the Purifier has the Holy Pistol and Power Weapon and is the alternate weapon option for Adepta Sorotitas Mininstorum Priest and default weapon option for Index Astra Militarum Mininstorum Priest.
Other weapon options for Index Astra Militarum Mininstorum Priest are old metal/resin models.
The rules description for the Crusade component on Warcom is a little hard to follow, being a summary. But it is an indicator of the level of detail that went into the creation of the rules.
It looks really solid from what I can piece together, and Kudos to GW for pushing this out in a timely manner- I was beginning to worry that we'd hear nothing more until release week.
PenitentJake wrote: The rules description for the Crusade component on Warcom is a little hard to follow, being a summary. But it is an indicator of the level of detail that went into the creation of the rules.
It looks really solid from what I can piece together, and Kudos to GW for pushing this out in a timely manner- I was beginning to worry that we'd hear nothing more until release week.
If we're getting these kinds of rules, I'm assuming release is right around the corner.
Now I'm really hoping they put out some kind of Agents of Chaos book.
The article about "the Three Named Inquisitors in Codex: Imperial Agents" means that Kamarazov (unsurprisingly) and also Eisenhorn have gone to legends. That probably means no daemonhosts or jokaero.
locarno24 wrote: The article about "the Three Named Inquisitors in Codex: Imperial Agents" means that Kamarazov (unsurprisingly) and also Eisenhorn have gone to legends. That probably means no daemonhosts or jokaero.
both those options are options for inquisitorial agents rather than standalone units, at least in the index, so their demise is less certain
locarno24 wrote: The article about "the Three Named Inquisitors in Codex: Imperial Agents" means that Kamarazov (unsurprisingly) and also Eisenhorn have gone to legends. That probably means no daemonhosts or jokaero.
both those options are options for inquisitorial agents rather than standalone units, at least in the index, so their demise is less certain
Neither is included in the Agents box, and neither were plastic. I'd call their demise a metaphysical certitude.
LunarSol wrote: They are no longer options. The Inquisitorial Agents are kind of hilariously bad now.
Yeah, I'm pretty sad with how it all shook out.
The codex is a lot better for army amalgamation now, you can easily throw some Grey Knights in with your Space Marines, or some Sisters in with your guard, or a Death Watch Kill Team with your Custodes, or whatever, that part works a lot better now (and I will assuredly use it at some point.)
However, actually running it as a dedicated Agents army seems to have gotten very watered down. Most of the unique models they could take and things they could do have been cut and just replaced by things from other armies could already do all blended together.
I don't have an issue that they leaned heavily into the soup idea, but too much watering down made it loose its flavour in the process.
I REALLY wish they would have included the Freeblade Knight datasheets here. That's probably my biggest disappointment. Well, after the functionality of the rules.
At least Blood Angels can expect to be top tier for a while.
locarno24 wrote: The article about "the Three Named Inquisitors in Codex: Imperial Agents" means that Kamarazov (unsurprisingly) and also Eisenhorn have gone to legends.
GW: Hey, how about we integrate FW with our main line, wasting a mountain of money, making site unusable, and creating endless usability and QC problems, just to push a tiny bit more resin sales!
GW clown writer: What's that? I should squat all the FW inquisitors, upgrades, weapons and other resin Inq stuff? Got it!
GW: WC, make an article about studio Inq teams to hype new release. Make sure to include resin FW models like a dozen times and explicitly point that out in text!
GW clown writer: What's that? We already squatted all the FW junk, and Eisenhorn for good measure totally not by mistakethinking he is FW resin too, what else we're supposed to do? Oh, write doubly gak rules to murder whatever is left of the hype, "forget" to include Rogue Traders, IG stuff, rules for made to order and limited edition inquisitors we sold multiple times in last 12 months, 95% of GK and DW armoury, nerf both naval infantry and arbites, then legend random character models we still sell or just stopped selling by throwing darts at new site? Producing book even worse than 7th edition Agents book, videly considered worst codex ever? Say no more, on it!
GW: Wait, why people don't want to buy DW and Inquisition? Must be because they are hated factions, and totally not because Cruddace and Kelly ruined them with their incompetence, eh? Better squat them!
locarno24 wrote: The article about "the Three Named Inquisitors in Codex: Imperial Agents" means that Kamarazov (unsurprisingly) and also Eisenhorn have gone to legends.
GW: Hey, how about we integrate FW with our main line, wasting a mountain of money, making site unusable, and creating endless usability and QC problems, just to push a tiny bit more resin sales!
GW clown writer: What's that? I should squat all the FW inquisitors, upgrades, weapons and other resin Inq stuff? Got it!
GW: WC, make an article about studio Inq teams to hype new release. Make sure to include resin FW models like a dozen times and explicitly point that out in text!
GW clown writer: What's that? We already squatted all the FW junk, and Eisenhorn for good measure totally not by mistakethinking he is FW resin too, what else we're supposed to do? Oh, write doubly gak rules to murder whatever is left of the hype, "forget" to include Rogue Traders, IG stuff, rules for made to order and limited edition inquisitors we sold multiple times in last 12 months, 95% of GK and DW armoury, nerf both naval infantry and arbites, then legend random character models we still sell or just stopped selling by throwing darts at new site? Producing book even worse than 7th edition Agents book, videly considered worst codex ever? Say no more, on it!
GW: Wait, why people don't want to buy DW and Inquisition? Must be because they are hated factions, and totally not because Cruddace and Kelly ruined them with their incompetence, eh? Better squat them!
they're not just getting rid of FW resin. all the old finecast characters are going as well, which is what both Karry and Eisenhorn were. the whole point about FW here doesn't really land. we also could have assumed that the old finecast models were going, considering that's what happened to space marines, and necrons, and t'au, and orks, and sisters, and so on
i also roll my eyes anytime someone uses "incompetent" as their insult of choice towards game developers. to use another reductive word, it feels like a lazy complaint
From what I'm hearing so far, SoE - and I say this without having read the book, or knowing what their goals for the book were - GW's team are doing a darned good job of at least appearing incompetent.
Especially when you combo what we're hearing of this book alongside "No, you can't use Deathwatch in Boarding Actions, even if they're the sort of scenario a DW Kill Team would thrive in..."
That's why you use house rules in friendly games, our prerequisite for this is any house rule involving particular forces, models and use thereof must make sense within the narrative. Works for us, so DW in boarding actions, why not? Go for it, have fun.
Dysartes wrote: From what I'm hearing so far, SoE - and I say this without having read the book, or knowing what their goals for the book were - GW's team are doing a darned good job of at least appearing incompetent.
Especially when you combo what we're hearing of this book alongside "No, you can't use Deathwatch in Boarding Actions, even if they're the sort of scenario a DW Kill Team would thrive in..."
Dysartes wrote: From what I'm hearing so far, SoE - and I say this without having read the book, or knowing what their goals for the book were - GW's team are doing a darned good job of at least appearing incompetent.
Especially when you combo what we're hearing of this book alongside "No, you can't use Deathwatch in Boarding Actions, even if they're the sort of scenario a DW Kill Team would thrive in..."
Why can't we?
They don't have rules, if I'm reading this correctly.
You could use ordinary Marines and just use Deathwatch Models, I suppose.
Aye, I was meaning book-as-written, no-house-ruling, there's apparently no army list/rules for them to use inside Boarding Actions - because co-ordinating the two books you're releasing at nearly the same time would be...?
Dysartes wrote: Aye, I was meaning book-as-written, no-house-ruling, there's apparently no army list/rules for them to use inside Boarding Actions - because co-ordinating the two books you're releasing at nearly the same time would be...?
Dysartes wrote: From what I'm hearing so far, SoE - and I say this without having read the book, or knowing what their goals for the book were - GW's team are doing a darned good job of at least appearing incompetent.
Especially when you combo what we're hearing of this book alongside "No, you can't use Deathwatch in Boarding Actions, even if they're the sort of scenario a DW Kill Team would thrive in..."
You know what environment a deathwatch kill team thrives in? Kill Team. Where they should have started and stayed as a concept.
So let's say one wanted to include a Deathwatch squad as an ally to a Sister or IG. Force. How should they be equipped? Hammers are good, as are their big guns, but does it make sense to mix these in the same squad?
Crimson wrote: So let's say one wanted to include a Deathwatch squad as an ally to a Sister or IG. Force. How should they be equipped? Hammers are good, as are their big guns, but does it make sense to mix these in the same squad?
I'd say no. Either go full-melee (Xenophase sword for the sarge, a Blackshield, 4 hammers and 4 shields, led by a Watch Master) or full-shooty (2 frag cannons, 2 infernus bolters, and your preference of Stalker bolters, shotguns and sarge's combi-weapon, all led by Artemis).
Obviously the melee version is a great option for Guard; Sisters can probably benefit from either.
GW: Wait, why people don't want to buy DW and Inquisition? Must be because they are hated factions, and totally not because Cruddace and Kelly ruined them with their incompetence, eh? Better squat them!
Now the book on its own is super bad, and for DW players it is like being spit on. But I can't think of an Imperial army that doesn't get better with assasins, and if you want to run them post this codex, you need the rules to be able to do it. So every person who wants to run them has to buy the book or the cards. And cards will be in lower supply, then then the books.
I’m looking forward to getting the book, but more so seeing the points.
I’m reorganizing my Deathwatch but since I don’t play tournaments, I will absolutely be adding Kill Team Cassius, Terminators, vanvets and bikes into my Ordo Xenos detachment.
Will probably import a few characters too (Libby, Captain etc)
Will keep all my Primaris as just Gladius marine force.
The thing I'm waiting for most is the errata; if GW has followed the internet buzz, they could fix the lack of Astartes Keywords for DW and the lack of <Ordo> keywords on generic Inquisitors with just a few lines of errata.
It still wouldn't make the book perfect, but it would make it a heck of a lot better with virtually no effort on GW's part.
PenitentJake wrote: The thing I'm waiting for most is the errata; if GW has followed the internet buzz, they could fix the lack of Astartes Keywords for DW and the lack of <Ordo> keywords on generic Inquisitors with just a few lines of errata.
It still wouldn't make the book perfect, but it would make it a heck of a lot better with virtually no effort on GW's part.
If they can't fix the watch master weapon damage profile, I doubt they will do similar stuff now. The transport stuff is the only fix I expect to see, plus I find it funny that this books GK terminators aren't GK. It is funny.
I actually don't expect them to give the Blackstar the Transport Keyword- I don't think they want people bringing six to a game, and I don't think they want two showing up in an allied army.
With the rules as-is, you can shoehorn a character and a Kill Team in a Blackstar and drop them into any Imperial army, but if you gave the Blackstar Transport, I think that would mean you could bring a Watchmaster and his Team in one Blackstar, and a second Kill Team in a second Blackstar. The Goonhammer Crew and GW bothseem to think that would be too much augmentation to say, a Guard army. Granted, it would be great in an army of Space Marines, so that you can mimic a Deathwatch army from days gone by, but unless the fix the Astartes Keyword problem I mentioned above, that's just extra baggage that can't use an augmentative Army rule, a detachment rule, enhancements or detachment strats.
As for the GK in this book not being Marines, or the Sisters not being Sisters, it's weird and cumbersome, but it's far less of an issue with those armies because the is a selction of Sororitas Detachments and there will be a selection of GK Detachments that any Agent units you want to include can be assigned to using assigned Agents, and unless you WANTED BSS or GK Termies in those armies to be Agents for narrative reasons, you'd just use the Host Army detacards for them instead of assigning them from the Agents dex, solving any keyword issues without the need for errata. So I get you- it is weird for them not to have those Keywords, but the in-game effect of that weirdness is minimal.
With DW, however, it's a huge deal, since integrating them into a Space Marine army as Agents is the only way to get many of the units DW could once include onto the table.
I think for important concern for most people is going to be the points particularly as GW are double valuing them. Gw could easily make everything very overcosted as an addition to another army
But objectively there is a value where it's worth considering and one where it's not
As a sister player
I have arcos 150
Repentia 180
Sacresants+hospitalier 200
Arcos+ priest 200
I've seen the DW rules at 150 they are an easy take over arcos but once you get to the 180-210 point range they feel much more a choice especially given they don't benefit from detatchment
However I could see GW adding a penalty and by 250 I would never take them.
I think the cheap unit argument is bad one because absolutely knights type armies want a cheap objective holder and so get more value from it but it's not really about the unit as whole they just want the cheapest way to hold a home objective/do a mission they will pay 20 pts over what its worth it thats cheapest. when you look dwgk sisters units they either are pointed to be good enough to compete for a spot in other armies or they are not taken
Basically what I expected. Seeing the separate points appear to only be designed to make everything unplayable as allies is pretty disappointing though.
I can ALMOST justify running Kill Teams in my marines list, but the loss of the Astartes keyword is probably crippling.
Well, if you want a pure Deathwatch army now it will max-out at 2245 points. And that's assuming you want 6 Rhinos, 3 Blackstars, 3 Watch Masters, Artemis, and 6 maxed Kill Teams.
Plus side, at least they don't have higher points costs if you put them in a traditional marine army, but then you're VERY limited on the Deathwatch units you can take in your "Deathwatch" force.
Munitorum Field Manual wrote:Sisters of Battle Squad:
1 model ... 115 points
::sigh::
They are only 115pts if you take them as allies. In a dedicated agents army they are 100. That's still not amazing since they don't get miracle dice, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: Kill Team finally got points that are playable! Of course.... that's only for Legends :(
I mean, unless you're going to big competitive tournaments, that's still a plus.
Munitorum Field Manual wrote:Sisters of Battle Squad:
1 model ... 115 points
::sigh::
They are only 115pts if you take them as allies. In a dedicated agents army they are 100. That's still not amazing since they don't get miracle dice, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
You might have missed the issue with 1 model being 100pts...
Munitorum Field Manual wrote:Sisters of Battle Squad:
1 model ... 115 points
::sigh::
They are only 115pts if you take them as allies. In a dedicated agents army they are 100. That's still not amazing since they don't get miracle dice, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
You might have missed the issue with 1 model being 100pts...
It's per 10 models, I figured that was a typo. There's no 1 sisters model in the dex that's 100 points.
Talking about the actual units though, the Immolators are down to 100pts too for agents. I could see the army running a pair with a split sisters squad going around and stickying objectives.
Munitorum Field Manual wrote:Sisters of Battle Squad:
1 model ... 115 points
::sigh::
They are only 115pts if you take them as allies. In a dedicated agents army they are 100. That's still not amazing since they don't get miracle dice, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
You might have missed the issue with 1 model being 100pts...
Correct - I was pointing out the lack of proofreading.
Munitorum Field Manual wrote:Sisters of Battle Squad:
1 model ... 115 points
::sigh::
They are only 115pts if you take them as allies. In a dedicated agents army they are 100. That's still not amazing since they don't get miracle dice, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
You might have missed the issue with 1 model being 100pts...
Correct - I was pointing out the lack of proofreading.
MinscS2 wrote: Vindicare: 110 pts or 150 pts ( ) as an Ally.
Callidus: 100 pts or 100 pts as an Ally.
GW rules are as consistent as always I see...
You can't apply the same standard to every unit, the inconsistency in it is actually a good sign.
The Callidus has been proven at 100pts to be strong, but not broken, it barely changed, so staying as is makes sense. The Vindicare got a big buff and could potentially be a very strong unit, giving it a higher initial points cost so it doesn't just get slotted into every Imperial list is the right call as far as I see. Better to adjust down as needed then bust the meta.
Tawnis wrote: The Vindicare got a big buff and could potentially be a very strong unit, giving it a higher initial points cost so it doesn't just get slotted into every Imperial list is the right call as far as I see. Better to adjust down as needed then bust the meta.
Technically, the Vindicare went from 80 to (110)150 while the Callidus went from 100 to (100)100, so it already paid +30 pts minimum for the new buffs. Almost doubling the price of it for "allies" however... yeah...that might've been a tad too much.
I've seen alot of people freak out about it already ("OMG it ignores Lone Operative!") - if only hiding lone models was hard in 10th.
The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility
VladimirHerzog wrote: The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility
Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.
I mean, the Lone Op thing is cool, but the gun takes out attached heroes just fine as well. He's definitely a powerful model who got a nice buff, just not THAT nice a buff.
VladimirHerzog wrote: The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility
Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.
He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.
VladimirHerzog wrote: The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility
Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.
He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.
I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.
Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.
VladimirHerzog wrote: The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility
Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.
He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.
I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.
Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.
Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Nope, you only see the models you see, so if the character is hiding behind a wall, you don't get to precision it (for both shooting AND melee).
You're probably getting confused with the fact that you can still assign damage to models that arent visible to the attacking unit.
VladimirHerzog wrote: The vindicare could litterally have an ability thats "in your shooting phase, kill a visible foot hero" and it would still be bad. His role just is too easily counterable because precision requires visibility
Then he's exerting influence by dictating where your opponent's heroes can or cannot go.
He's really not, just stick your hero behind terrain, trailing behind the unit. It really only affects beatstick melee heroes and even then, those usually pounce out for the one kill that matters in the game and then can die with no downside.
I haven't played this ed yet, but I thought that if ANY member of unit is visible, then EVERY member of a unit can be hit, and I assume that means an attached Leader can't hide from Precision if a member of its unit is visible.
Like I said, haven't played yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Lone Ops are single models, hence the name.
Yeah, it's just the way Vlad said "trailing behind the unit" that made me think I was talking about an attached leader in the quote I was responding to- I know that the discussion had included the Lone Operative stuff earlier in the conversation, I just though Vlad might have switched gears given what he wrote. If Vlad is referencing a Lone Operative hiding near a unit so that the operative can target a nearby unit with an aura ability, that may be possible, but some aura abilities require the affected unit to be visible to the model producing the aura.
In some cases, it will be possible to hide an Operative from the Assassin in such a way that the operative can still see a member of the unit it wishes to affect, but that's still not as simple as "Hide the character but don't worry about the unit," and hence it is still appropriate to say that the Assassin forces an opponent to think more carefully about positioning.
In some cases, it will be possible to hide an Operative from the Assassin in such a way that the operative can still see a member of the unit it wishes to affect, but that's still not as simple as "Hide the character but don't worry about the unit," and hence it is still appropriate to say that the Assassin forces an opponent to think more carefully about positioning.
as i said, it still is very trivial to hide a character from a sniper with GW's recommended terrain layouts. The vindicare still has *some* amount of impact, but it is very minimal in most cases.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: As I wait for my book to reach India I have a question or two.
Can Arbites ride in an Imperial Rhino? How about an immolator?
What happened to Crusaders and Bondage Ninjas? This seems the natural place for them but I don't see them on the point sheet.
Right now a rhino can ride in a rhino even
Can I put my bondage ninjas in a Blackstar which is then riding in a rhino?
Only Deathwatch can ride in the Blackstar. Same for the Immolator and Sisters (which has its own weird name thing going on). The Chimera is comically limited to Inquisitorial Agents. The Rhino on the other hand, can take ANYTHING.
And I guess I can assume crusaders and death cult are out?
What about Jokero and Deamon Hosts?
Go to downloads on Warcom and scroll down to legends. The top four entries are all recent- Agents now includes Jokaero and Daemonhost, as well as all the missing DW Primaris KTS AND the actual Proteus KT (as the thing that they now officially call a KT isn't actually a KT, but rather a unit of DW Vets). The Sisters Legends now includes DCA's and Crusaders. Avaline's data card is there as well, and the last doc in the top row is the Legends Munitorum.
Accolytes stopped being a unit in 8th, so I assume you're referring to the Accolytes in the Inquisitorial Henchman unit (which I think has been renamed Inquisitorial Agents, which was a poor and confusing choice given the faction name).
That card will appear in the dex, which some people will have tomorrow (I won't be able to pick mine up until Monday or Tuesday).
But you also say "still" which is weird, because the index entry for all Acolytes in the Hench unit have acolyte firearms (pistol) and acolyte melee weapons, and that one acolyte can have a plasma pistol and another can have an eviscerator.
I know some units from the dex leaked, and I forget if they changed it, but unless you've heard otherwise, I'd assume they hadn't.
I did mean the Henchmen (Agents?), still in my brain as Acolytes my bad.
I was hoping that the "Acolyte Weapons" weren't going to just be 12" range but that would have been hoping for too much. Would it have killed GW to give one model a Lasgun and maybe they could be semi useful at range?
Yeah, just like you used to be able to cultists up as melee or range, the Acolytes in a Hench/ Inquisitorial Agents unit should have the option for range vs CC and pistol.
As for the wound change, I'm hoping for eratta on that. It is going to be nice to have the book in hand.
I just picked up the codex and it is as bad as people have said. It really should have been a PDF.
They managed to make a non-competitive army and make them worse.
They took the time out of their day to remove the deathwatch codex from their website BUT still have the space marine options on their webpage for the deathwatch as well as kill team Cassius..Which are all unusable.
This codex is designed to do just one thing....sell more of the kill team models that GW has in stock.
ender502 wrote: This codex is designed to do just one thing....sell more of the kill team models that GW has in stock.
I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.
But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?
Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.
I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.
But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?
Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.
It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".
And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.
I got the Codex yesterday. I've been an Inquisition player for decades, and this is the worst treatment they've ever recieved. It's bonkers-no way to pick an Ordo for your vanilla inquisitor and very few options for them.
It's really disappointing.
I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.
But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?
Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.
It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".
And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.
every codex GW has ever released has been a "cash grab". they're a miniatures company that also makes rules as an incentive to buy their models. and that's been the case for four decades now. the first edition of fantasy was made to sell all the existing fantasy models they had sitting around. are you going to call that a cash grab, too? what makes one of these commendable, and the other condemnable?
ender502 wrote: This codex is designed to do just one thing....sell more of the kill team models that GW has in stock.
I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.
But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?
Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.
There is selling models and there is GW telling people "Buy all those cool new things for HH, which you can use in w40k too.", to them move all that stuff to legends in less then half a year. Also GW did in the past and in this edition buff certain units just to nerf/kill them in a few months. Sniper scouts at start of 10th ed were one such unit for example. Right now the best way to play SCE in AoS is to use stuff which is going to end up in legends in a short time. BADC was a great unit, carrying the whole faction. You can run 10 DC with power fists and fusions anymore. And GW knowing their books in advance could have writen the index accordingly. For WS one of their top builds right now, and the only functional way to counts as WS, is running storm lance with TWC. Do you think that with the GW designing everything primaris, TWC are going to stay the corner stone of the faction?
Again nothing wrong with selling more stuff, the more money they have the higher chance they will write more rules and more books for players. But if someone sold me a Nobull Black Gum Trainer and it fell apart in 1-2 months I would be asking for return of money. GW has no problem with releasing codex 1-2 months before edition end, make people tech in to specific units they know they are going to remove etc. And they have this odd divides where WFB armies can't be in AoS and AoS armies can't be in WFB, same with FW and w40k. Everything has to be separate and you are going to buy a separate army for everything. They will even mess up base sizes just so you don't think doing a counts as.
It’s not a terrible book but one of so many missed opportunities. It just feels half done and more of a case of a placeholder for all the lost toys.
I think Ordo Malleus is the worst one as there is very little in there that feels like it belongs outside of the Grey Knights.
Ordo Xenos needs Legends to work, but feels more of a true Deathwatch force than what was forced before (basically just another space marine chapter)
Hereticus has quite a few fails, giving a new rule to Ignore Cover in an army that lore wise wants lots of flamers. Also, why exclude arco flagellants and Penitent Engines?
As much as I hate the NMNR approach by GW, it makes no sense to omit units that have boxes!!
Things that should have been included:
Deathwatch Terminator squad with new loadout restrictions (for NMNR)
Deathwatch Captain (regular and Terminator)
Deathwatch Land Raider
Deathwatch Razorback
Arco Flagellants
Penitent Engines
Kasrkin (with a blurb that they are typically called Inquisitorial stormtroopers)
I’m sure there’s more
Anyway, I plan to use the book as a base and just expand options. Played a quick game yesterday (Xenos) that had Legends terms, vanvets with a jump captain plus current options. Worked fine, and I recommend that you allow additional assets (this book is not one for tournament play)
grahamdbailey wrote: It's bonkers-no way to pick an Ordo for your vanilla inquisitor and very few options for them.
It's really disappointing.
This one was such low hanging fruit that I'm really surprised they missed it. I'm hoping it gets fixed with an errata. It's aclear case of a rules writer never playing an actual game with the rules they have written.
For my part though, I can't say it's worse than 8th and especially Index. In 8th you could field an Agents detachment, but had no battleline units, which crippled your detachment choice, and in 8th that was a big deal. In the beginning of 9th, you could still take an Agents detachment, and some of the detachment/ CP rules were fixed enough that it was okay; the biggest weakness there was a) a lack of Crusade content throughout and b) by the end of the ed, they torpedoed Agent detachments (though they did slightly improve the Assigned Agents rule). This was the game state that they rode into 10th ed.
Part of the issue here is that we've got compounded issues; doing the Deathwatch dirty is an issue that's separate in some ways from how good this dex is or isn't. If Deathwatch got a dex of their own that had all the old content in it, there would be fewer complaints about the Agents dex.
I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.
But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?
Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.
It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".
And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.
OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.
So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.
I'm all for criticizing a codex. The fact that the army doesn't get its own actual faction ability is pretty sad, and the limited effectiveness of the three Ordos detachments is also kind of weak-sauce.
But can we all stop with this conspiracy-theory-level BS?
Besides, as a miniatures company, it's GW's stated existential purpose to sell miniatures.
It's not a conspiracy at all and you just explained why they made this codex...it certainly isn't an improvement on..well, anything in the rules. It's certainly not a competitive army. It's just a cash grab. And we know this because, as you said, "it's GW's stated existential purpose is to sell miniatures".
And what's worse? How many new models did we get? Just chonky boy. Everything else is just existing models that they can now sell outside of their original larger boxes.
OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.
So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.
Because..to play this as an army you need to buy new minis rather than just fold in some of the space marine units you probably already have.
The $ part makes sense, it's the rules part that is so disastrous. They should have made a few of these units so good you couldn't live without them. Instead, you are forced with a choice....buy new minis that are crap I. The game or don't play the army at all. The rules boys did a great job of screwing over the $ plans IMO because the rules are so horrendously bad.
JNAProductions wrote: Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:
1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well
Good post. I believe it's mostly 2 and 3.
In terms of all the dissatisfaction, it's valid for sure. But it's not true that the post-dex environment is worse for Agents in general- before this dex, we couldn't field Agents as detachments at all.
For Deathwatch? Yes, they were better before this dex... But I think that's a separate issue.
Once I have the dex in hand, I'll be putting together a concise set of house rules. Adding <Ordo> to the generic Inquisitor, Astartes to DW units, Dedicated Transport to the Blackstar; I will be adding Land Raiders for Dedicated Transport of Ordo Malleus and Xenos; I will add the Repressor as a Dedicated Transport for Hereticus and Arbites, and I will add the Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport for Navis Imperialis (or whatever their keyword is).
That might be enough, but the Hench Unit may need tweaking.
On a Side Note: Damn I hate how generic the new name Inquisitorial Agents sounds- so damned confusing given the faction name also includes the word Agent.
I'll likely build on the Crusade Rules too, but that will mostly be done by linking missions with the threats named in the table, so it might just be repurposing existing rules.
JNAProductions wrote: Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:
1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well
Good post. I believe it's mostly 2 and 3.
In terms of all the dissatisfaction, it's valid for sure. But it's not true that the post-dex environment is worse for Agents in general- before this dex, we couldn't field Agents as detachments at all.
For Deathwatch? Yes, they were better before this dex... But I think that's a separate issue.
The A Team/B Team codex quality this edition has been pretty insane. I'm not sure if its a matter of a single rules team that only has time for one and phones in the other, or two teams with wildly different design skills or methodologies, but this has been one of the most stark "haves/have nots" editions I've experienced.
OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.
So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.
It's a cash grab in the sense that it's a low-effort "Codex" that could very easily have been a free PDF instead of a full-priced book. There's a very small number of units in the book and barely any effort put into the units that are there. In this case it seems GW have messed up badly enough that it won't be as profitable a book as they would like, but that doesn't make it any less a cash grab - just a more incompetent one than GW would have preferred.
JNAProductions wrote: Or the rules team is some combination of any of the following:
1) Not good at their jobs
2) Dealing with unreasonable mandates from on high
3) Not given enough information or time to get it done well
Good post. I believe it's mostly 2 and 3.
In terms of all the dissatisfaction, it's valid for sure. But it's not true that the post-dex environment is worse for Agents in general- before this dex, we couldn't field Agents as detachments at all.
For Deathwatch? Yes, they were better before this dex... But I think that's a separate issue.
The A Team/B Team codex quality this edition has been pretty insane. I'm not sure if its a matter of a single rules team that only has time for one and phones in the other, or two teams with wildly different design skills or methodologies, but this has been one of the most stark "haves/have nots" editions I've experienced.
Yeah, just the difference between Dark Angels and Blood Angels is so transparent. The individual nerfs applied to the DA codex from the Index (some since corrected, but not all) contrasts strongly with some of the bonkers abilities apparent in the new BA dex.
Yeah, just the difference between Dark Angels and Blood Angels is so transparent. The individual nerfs applied to the DA codex from the Index (some since corrected, but not all) contrasts strongly with some of the bonkers abilities apparent in the new BA dex.
It's literally been a pair hit/miss each release wave:
A: Marines
B: Tyranids
A: Necrons
B: Mechanicus/Dark Angels
A: Orks
B: Custodes
A: Chaos
B: Tau
A: Sisters
B: Genestealers
A: Blood Angels
B: Agents
Some of these have been fixed since with points or errata, but on launch its been pretty clear there's a book that's dramatically better than the other.
For what it's worth, the combat patrol rules team have definitely had their weetabix.
If you play combat patrol, the Inquisitor's Hand is a bloody awesome force, with a 'faction ability' to hand one arbites unit LETHAL HITS and PRECISION for the turn,every turn, and the two ten strong squads able to patrol squad down to five men to give you four independent BATTLELINE units at the start of any patrol mission where you need it.
Oh, and the priest? Her unique enhancement gives the entire agents team a 4+ invulnerable save AND -1to hit AND -1 to wound vs ANY incoming attack.
locarno24 wrote: For what it's worth, the combat patrol rules team have definitely had their weetabix.
If you play combat patrol, the Inquisitor's Hand is a bloody awesome force, with a 'faction ability' to hand one arbites unit LETHAL HITS and PRECISION for the turn,every turn, and the two ten strong squads able to patrol squad down to five men to give you four independent BATTLELINE units at the start of any patrol mission where you need it.
Oh, and the priest? Her unique enhancement gives the entire agents team a 4+ invulnerable save AND -1to hit AND -1 to wound vs ANY incoming attack.
That sounds brutally overpowered.
I don't know tons about combat patrol, so if it's not, good. But just on surface-level look... Damn.
locarno24 wrote: For what it's worth, the combat patrol rules team have definitely had their weetabix.
If you play combat patrol, the Inquisitor's Hand is a bloody awesome force, with a 'faction ability' to hand one arbites unit LETHAL HITS and PRECISION for the turn,every turn, and the two ten strong squads able to patrol squad down to five men to give you four independent BATTLELINE units at the start of any patrol mission where you need it.
Oh, and the priest? Her unique enhancement gives the entire agents team a 4+ invulnerable save AND -1to hit AND -1 to wound vs ANY incoming attack.
That sounds brutally overpowered.
I don't know tons about combat patrol, so if it's not, good. But just on surface-level look... Damn.
It's just her unit, so her and the six agents. Who, by the way, don't get the eviscerator in Combat Patrol.
OK so this is a cash grab to sell miniatures, yet it removes most of the marine range from deathwatch, has rules that as you note are not very attractive and the new model is rubbish.
So whilst you're off your rocker, explain to me how any of that is anything other than raw incompetence, rather than a "cash grab" which is putting people off... spending cash.
It's a cash grab in the sense that it's a low-effort "Codex" that could very easily have been a free PDF instead of a full-priced book. There's a very small number of units in the book and barely any effort put into the units that are there. In this case it seems GW have messed up badly enough that it won't be as profitable a book as they would like, but that doesn't make it any less a cash grab - just a more incompetent one than GW would have preferred.
I can understand that perspective, it's an attempt at a cash grab so comprehensively poorly done that it discourages spending and likely loses money that was on the table.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay, just one unit seems more reasonable.
Powerful, but since the individual unit isn't as powerful as something like a Terminator blob... Yee.
That's one thing gw have consistently been good at balancing combat patrol compared to the full game. Because the combat patrol lists are 'fixed' they can take what would be pretty extreme steps in 'normal' 40k to balance the box contents.
So where a box doesn't include much antitank (like Vigil Force Alphion, which is basically an intercessors squad and three aggressors) and might face a rampaging deff dread (there's one in Gorfang's Gitstompas), the balance is the unique stratagem and enhancements that are often waaaaay nastier than their 40k counterparts.
In this example, 'Special Issue Ammunition' giving a hideous ANTI-VEHICLE 5+ and MELTA 2 to the bolt rifles and grenade launchers.
Less powerful patrols get some VERY shiny toys to make up the numbers.
I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out
And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that
But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.
U02dah4 wrote: I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out
And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that
But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.
You are mistaken: when Ordo Hereticus wants more than 3 units of Sisters, they just join a sisters army as an Assigned Agent. Then not only do they get as many Sisters as they want, those Sisters can also be more than BSS, and can use AoF. The only downside is that the Inquisitor won't benefit from any of their detachment rules. Requisitioned BSS are not in the dex for people who want lots of Sisters- they are there so that an Inquisitor can bring them into another Imperial army, like Guard, Custodes, Admech or Marines. Or Knights, for that matter.
The same is true for GK.
It isn't true for Deathwatch when you want them to attach to a Space Marine army to mimic old Deathwatch, because the missing Astartes Keyword prevents them from using detachment abilities which, fluffwise, they should be able to use.
I meant in the ordo hereticus detatchment itself it makes the detatchment so you can't really even build to it you can build to the dw one just by takeing 1200 points of veterans
If you're leaning as hard into sisters as you can, 1380 points gets you six immolators, each carrying 5 sisters and either an Inquisitor or a Priest.
For the other 620 points, you want Arbites and Agents, and if you want to go full mobile, you can mount them in Rhinos and Chimerae too.
My starting point is this:
Inquisitor 55
Small IA 50
Chimera 70
BSS 100
Immolator 100
Immolator 100
That's 475, so if you field it in a Hereticus Detachment, add 25 points in enhancements; if you send it as an Assigned Agent force, the BSS and Immo each go up by 15, putting you at 505.
PenitentJake wrote: That's 475, so if you field it in a Hereticus Detachment, add 25 points in enhancements; if you send it as an Assigned Agent force, the BSS and Immo each go up by 15, putting you at 505.
PenitentJake wrote: That's 475, so if you field it in a Hereticus Detachment, add 25 points in enhancements; if you send it as an Assigned Agent force, the BSS and Immo each go up by 15, putting you at 505.
Wouldn't you end up at 520? 475 + (3*15)
Doh!
Yeah, forgot the 2nd immo- still remembering the days of 1 unit = one transport.
So if I wanted to keep it as close to 500 as I could, it doesn't work so well.
I’m totally fine with just 3 sisters squads in the Hereticus detachment, far less so with them excluding Arco Flagellants (which we were first exposed to in the game Inquisitor), and penitent engines. Then with arbites, some agents, I think you have a decent force.
Still think there should have been one standard guard type squad to choose from (instead of arbites or navy).
bullyboy wrote: I’m totally fine with just 3 sisters squads in the Hereticus detachment, far less so with them excluding Arco Flagellants (which we were first exposed to in the game Inquisitor), and penitent engines. Then with arbites, some agents, I think you have a decent force.
Still think there should have been one standard guard type squad to choose from (instead of arbites or navy).
Inquisitorial Stormtroopers* would be ideal, but GW has let that idea fade since 5th edition.
*If they got a new kit, would probably be Veritoquestor Scions or something these days.
U02dah4 wrote: I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out
And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that
But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.
You are mistaken: when Ordo Hereticus wants more than 3 units of Sisters, they just join a sisters army as an Assigned Agent. Then not only do they get as many Sisters as they want, those Sisters can also be more than BSS, and can use AoF. The only downside is that the Inquisitor won't benefit from any of their detachment rules. Requisitioned BSS are not in the dex for people who want lots of Sisters- they are there so that an Inquisitor can bring them into another Imperial army, like Guard, Custodes, Admech or Marines. Or Knights, for that matter.
The same is true for GK.
It isn't true for Deathwatch when you want them to attach to a Space Marine army to mimic old Deathwatch, because the missing Astartes Keyword prevents them from using detachment abilities which, fluffwise, they should be able to use.
This reminds me that they didn't delete the Sisters Codex but they did delete the Deathwatch codex.
Fluff-wise I think it's a giant step back that an Inquisitor can't take as much of whatever they want. The Inquisitor should be able to lead his own army of requisitioned troops.
U02dah4 wrote: I mean ordo hereticus only being able to take 3 BSS squads is stupid and not thought out
And yes having an ordo faction ability would have made sense but it isn't required and if the army is good enough it does not need a faction ability and in some ways cheaper units does that
But I am quite happy with the Navy detatchment and I'm actually thinking of running it competitively in a couple of months time.
You are mistaken: when Ordo Hereticus wants more than 3 units of Sisters, they just join a sisters army as an Assigned Agent. Then not only do they get as many Sisters as they want, those Sisters can also be more than BSS, and can use AoF. The only downside is that the Inquisitor won't benefit from any of their detachment rules. Requisitioned BSS are not in the dex for people who want lots of Sisters- they are there so that an Inquisitor can bring them into another Imperial army, like Guard, Custodes, Admech or Marines. Or Knights, for that matter.
The same is true for GK.
It isn't true for Deathwatch when you want them to attach to a Space Marine army to mimic old Deathwatch, because the missing Astartes Keyword prevents them from using detachment abilities which, fluffwise, they should be able to use.
This reminds me that they didn't delete the Sisters Codex but they did delete the Deathwatch codex.
Fluff-wise I think it's a giant step back that an Inquisitor can't take as much of whatever they want. The Inquisitor should be able to lead his own army of requisitioned troops.
if you want to run a full army of Sisters, you can use Sisters and then add an inquisitor from the Agents book; for the flavor you want, that should be good, unless you want a full Imperium soup list, in which case that's just not what this edition is doing
U02dah4 wrote: They should at least be battle line in hereticus and grey knights battle line in their detatchment
I think that would make a lot of sense.
bullyboy wrote: I’m totally fine with just 3 sisters squads in the Hereticus detachment, far less so with them excluding Arco Flagellants (which we were first exposed to in the game Inquisitor), and penitent engines. Then with arbites, some agents, I think you have a decent force.
Still think there should have been one standard guard type squad to choose from (instead of arbites or navy).
I agree with this too, and I'd add Crusaders and DCAs to the mix too, but I am expecting a Battle Conclave KT at some point.
I posted standard houserules for using this dex in a thread somewhere, and boomeranging back Crusaders and DCAs using the Legends units are in there. I should add PEs and Arcos too.
if you want to run a full army of Sisters, you can use Sisters and then add an inquisitor from the Agents book; for the flavor you want, that should be good, unless you want a full Imperium soup list, in which case that's just not what this edition is doing
For sure, and in fact that's something I've already recommended in this thread. It also works for GK, but it doesn't work for Deathwatch (despite being recommended by GW as a solution to the demise of the DW Supplement).
For the record, my ROSTER is heavily mixed Imperial, though my armies are a bit more structured. But in point of fact, mixed imperial armies IS something that this edition is doing, and this dex makes it more possible than it already was, specifically because of the new Requisitioned units. Before, you could insert IA into any Imperial Army. You still can, but now those IA can bring DW, GK or SoB with them when they ally in (provided it's at least a 2k battle).
I think there's also a rule that lets people bring a single Knight?
And of course GSC get Brood Brothers and CSM get Daemons.... So yeah, this edition soups less hard than 8th or 9th (where each allied detachment got to keep its own detachment rules), but it still soups pretty hard, and it is undeniably souping just a bit harder with the release of this book.
Kale wrote: Single titanic knight or up to 3 armigers - thinking of adding armigers to my sisters army.
So long Death watch marines, shame I cant get the pauldrons off and switch them to my regular chapter!
My deathwatch will be okay as long as I use Legends. I know that won't work for all players or armies though. GW could have done a better job of this, and they should have. I wonder what will happen in 11th, or if there will be any updates to IA forces before the end of this edition.
Honestly, In a couple of test games I’m actually enjoying my Deathwatch more than previously. I started collecting Deathwatch prior to Primaris and never really enjoyed their addition. So all my Primaris is now in their own Gladius army.
I am adding terminators (plus terminator characters), vanvets (and characters), plus bikes, land raider, razorback etc. most recent game only added the Terminators to current rules.
Love the Navigator with Blackweave shroud in backfield, but still wondering what other additions I add for actions.
As it stands, the current incarnation is not killing my fun with Deathwatch.
