I like the idea of power spears for Celestians. The tips should have the shape of a fleur-de-lis, tho. The weapon design was one of the details that I did like in this fan art.
Lynata wrote: I like the idea of power spears for Celestians. The tips should have the shape of a fleur-de-lis, tho. The weapon design was one of the details that I did like in this fan art.
or we could take the lancia longini...
You know "spears" are a legitimate form of power weapon, right? I believe they fall into the "lance" category IIRC.
How about the option of upgrading their boltguns to a special kind of power spear that has a boltgun slung under it, similar to the gun-pikes used by the Catholic army in Hellsing?
ClockworkZion wrote:You know "spears" are a legitimate form of power weapon, right? I believe they fall into the "lance" category IIRC.
Hum, that must have slipped my mind. I thought it was just swords, axes, hammers.
I have yet to play a single game in 6E, so I may be a "bit" rusty...
Melissia wrote:How about the option of upgrading their boltguns to a special kind of power spear that has a boltgun slung under it, similar to the gun-pikes used by the Catholic army in Hellsing?
Isn't that something the GKs had, or am I mistaking this for the bolters strapped to their arm?
Never been a fan of the whole idea of either power- or chain-knives ever since seeing those pop up in Dark Heresy, though... I know 40k tech can be pretty small in some cases, but I guess I'm just too used to those kind of weapons being clunky.
Well... powerswords in general aren't terribly clunky. The tech-ware that generates the powerfield is comparatively small.
Not sure I'd want a powerblade in my back pocket or strapped to my thigh, though. All it takes is someone with Precision Telekinesis to notice it's there, and turn it on from across the room.
ClockworkZion wrote:You know "spears" are a legitimate form of power weapon, right? I believe they fall into the "lance" category IIRC.
Hum, that must have slipped my mind. I thought it was just swords, axes, hammers. I have yet to play a single game in 6E, so I may be a "bit" rusty...
Melissia wrote:How about the option of upgrading their boltguns to a special kind of power spear that has a boltgun slung under it, similar to the gun-pikes used by the Catholic army in Hellsing?
Isn't that something the GKs had, or am I mistaking this for the bolters strapped to their arm?
Never been a fan of the whole idea of either power- or chain-knives ever since seeing those pop up in Dark Heresy, though... I know 40k tech can be pretty small in some cases, but I guess I'm just too used to those kind of weapons being clunky.
I don't think GKs had it (they might have ages ago, but not now), but I think the Custodes have some sort of bolter-mounted Halberd.
Didn't the sisters use to have special anti-psyker crossbows? Is that still a thing?
IRT the Pronatus squads, I think it would depend specifically on what the relics they carry did/could do. If it's something akin to a relic blade or other relic weapon that provides a bonus to the one model carrying it, then I can see them as Elites or maybe even as Troops in certain Missions...
... but if these are relics with effects out to a distance, like the Grimoire, then I think there would probably need to be some limits on the number of Pronatuses (Pronati?) that could be on the table at any one time, to avoid having an army toting a dozen relics or something.
Lynata wrote: I like the idea of power spears for Celestians. The tips should have the shape of a fleur-de-lis, tho. The weapon design was one of the details that I did like in this fan art.
The bolter-stake-crossbow combi weapon aka Condemnor boltgun was an Inquisitor's toy
Spoiler:
but I suppose it's not unfitting that we retained it, though the fluff description makes it sound to be more of an Ecclesiarchal thing rather than SoB-specific, similar to the Arco-flagellants.
CthululsSpy wrote:I don't think GKs had it (they might have ages ago, but not now), but I think the Custodes have some sort of bolter-mounted Halberd.
That must be where I remember them from! Thanks.
Spoiler:
I dunno. I think it'd look more elegant without that bulky bolter box strapped to the shaft. Still like that fan-art piece more, in this regard.
Psienesis wrote:Well... powerswords in general aren't terribly clunky. The tech-ware that generates the powerfield is comparatively small.
Comparatively, yeah. But it'd still be a cigarette-box-sized generator strapped to the knife - look at the Inquisitor's blade above!
There's probably a lot of cases where it can be incorporated into the hilt and crossguard (see where the "rod" extends from on this Superior?), but with a mere dagger ... meh, maybe when it's some rare artificer stuff.
Though that's just my perception of it! I guess I'm just used to things being big, and power/chain weapons having stuff tacked onto them.
I think it's more a case of artist interpretation, as the typical power-field generator is similar to what's on the Inq model there, but even in studio art it can be depicted much smaller. And once you get into hardware that is produced by master artisans, rather than off a press on some Forge World, well, things probably get a lot more elegant.
Though I'm not sure a chainknife or a powerblade are generally "mastercrafted" weapons, they seem more intended as tools.
Though, it does make me wonder why power-blade bayonets or even chain-blade bayonets are not as popular with the IG and/or the Stormtrooper Regiment as I imagine they could be. Especially for the ST, mount a power-blade under that hellgun and you significantly increase your threat profile during assault actions and room-to-room fighting.
I'd suppose they would just be too expensive, and possibly require more maintenance than the sturdy lasgun. Given the rarity of power weapons - not even every Space Marine or Battle Sister has them - I just wouldn't expect them in the hands of some "scrub" ranker. Apparently the Munitorum doesn't even manage to hand everyone normal bayonets.
I could maybe see it in the Storm Trooper regiment, though, as those guys receive much better arms and armour.
Hypothetically speaking, of course. Whilst I could believe a power field generator being placed into such a small weapon is generally possible, it'd be an expensive job resulting in a rare item. But as you said: interpretation!
[edit] Ah, the Inquisitor RPG describes power weapons as "highly prized" and "a badge of office amongst senior Imperial servants".
That book also has power knives, though, so I'll have to concede to you.
I like the spear-bolter idea.
Long time ago, in yonder Rogue Trader days, proto-GK did have spear/bolter thing going on. I have this guy and another like him, also with a spear. I think it would fit very nicely with the Joan D'Arc/Medieval feel of the SOB.
Most CCWs with flamers that have existed so far that I can think of where combi-flamers unless they were Celestine's Sword, so if it's a flamer all the time and not just a one-shot then it probably should be a Relic.
Or at the very minimum restricted to character models not all models.
I'd say for sisters of battle another ability could be an actual 'Fire Wall'. Like they raise up a wall of fire between them and their enemies. Basically it's an area denial weapon and possibly have it shot out of one of the vehicles. Basically throw out a line of fire and anybody that crosses said line take a certain amount of hits at a certain amount of damage (anywhere from 4-6 I guess) that go through cover (so it still damages ork bikers to my knowledge or any specialty cover save dudes). This is basically useful if you have to face superior melee troops which could be very useful I think esp. versus orks.
Hehe maybe we should have a holy hand grenade. Or you know a grenade that splashes burning oils in the enemy's faces.
Perhaps a shotgun melta for close combat troops or even seraphim maybe considering the amount they move (melta shotgun would be very short ranged but more shots) or even one of those d3 melta shots on some sort of walker like the penitent engine. The d3 melta shots idea is actually something I adapted from the weaponry of the xv9 suits. I figure a walker could shoot a few of those off.
Possibly have some combat weapons like censers that create a fog that ruins enemy initiative or WS or an altar that adds a cover bonus for every sister's unit within a certain radius.
What's everybody's opinion on gatling gun type weapons for sisters like the punisher cannon except maybe rending and with immolation bullets for going through cover? I'm willing to work with ideas on this whether sisters or a vehicle would get this.
Different types of ammo would also be good for other stuff like the exorcist. Like maybe sometimes it shoots melta and sometimes it shoots normal flaming attacks but each is limited to a certain amount of shots or you have to choose the loadout before hand and keep firing just one type all game. Actually the limited loadouts per type of shot sounds better. Maybe 4 flaming and 3 melta volleys of rockets.
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Not sure what else I can come up with right now. Still think we need more angelic type units for sisters or something melee intensive. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a more statue-esque creepy weeping angel version of the sisters with some similarity to the sanguinary guard. I don't think GW could handle the level of detail of such a model currently though. Would be infinitely creepy to face something like that or it'd be an interesting new style for seraphim. Maybe a more elite version of seraphim with artificer armor. Maybe there are advanced robots that look like living statues or perhaps the sisters put on a very pasty white coloring and throw on some angelic garb over their armor.
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Perhaps if I could write out a comic with an exorcist playing organ music in the form of 'When the Saints Come Marching in!'
ClockworkZion wrote: Most CCWs with flamers that have existed so far that I can think of where combi-flamers unless they were Celestine's Sword, so if it's a flamer all the time and not just a one-shot then it probably should be a Relic.
Or at the very minimum restricted to character models not all models.
Could always go for something along the lines of Ork Burna boys, either use it as a flamer or as a power weapon not both in the same turn.
ClockworkZion wrote: Most CCWs with flamers that have existed so far that I can think of where combi-flamers unless they were Celestine's Sword, so if it's a flamer all the time and not just a one-shot then it probably should be a Relic.
Or at the very minimum restricted to character models not all models.
Could always go for something along the lines of Ork Burna boys, either use it as a flamer or as a power weapon not both in the same turn.
To be fair those are a bit different (burnas have flamethrowers that can be cranked into high powered cutting torches) but I can see it being a reasonable way to balance them.
Actually, it's the other way round - they have cutting torches that they can crank open to work as flamethrowers.
The old Grey Knight Terminator unit that could be included in a Marine army were armed with "Nemesis Force Halberds" that had built-in storm bolters. I always thought the change to glove mounted was kind of a shame.
It would be nice to see SoB get more unique weapons. The crossbow and the flameberd being discussed would be a good start. It'd be nice to see them with a unique special or heavy weapon choices.
"Flameberge" only if it has the SR that it, I dunno, can be used as a Flamer instead of a CCW at the player's choice. Either run up and hit them with it, stay back and throw fire on them, or run up and throw fire on them.
... also, cheaper Stormbolters. Maybe 2 for free in a squad, with a buy-option to equip the whole squad. This, of course, in homage to Faith & Fire.
Tying this back to another thread.... the Sisters are being heavily advertised all over the GW site right now I noticed.
Stormbolters should be free - the opportunity cost of not being able to take a better special weapon is enough. And rather than a dedicated spear-flamer, why not just bring back Exterminator cartridges?
So I sat down and from the point of view of working off of stuff we have and had only (no making up new stuff, no adding wargear we didn't have that sort of thing) and here's what I see as a basis for a codex (no I'm not going into every change I'm considering, just putting it all on the table, besides, I have to save something for myself if the codex falls through and I decide to go ahead and write a fandex instead):
HQ:
Canoness
Sororitas Command Squad (includes option to upgrade 1 to be a Palatine)
Ecclesiarchy Confessor
Battle Conclave
Jacobus
Kyrinov
Helfire
Helena
Praxedes
Celestine
Elites:
Celestians
Repentia
Ecclesiarchy Priests
Troops:
Battle Sister Squad
Zealous Mob (basically a hybrid of our various mob types over the years)
Dedicated Transports:
Rhino
Immolator
Dominica Pattern Drop Pod
Repressor
Fast Attack
Seraphim
Dominons
Arco-Flagellant Pack
Deathwind Drop Pod
Heavy Support:
Exorcist
Retributors
Penitent Engines
Avenger Strike Fighter
Howabout they take a tip from the GK and gauntlet-mount some Exterminators?
ETA: Really, Im just saying that so they can dramatically point the finger at someone and then shoot flames into their face. There's even a model already in the pose that you could greenstuff a sheet of flames coming off her arm from if you trimmed off the bolter.
I think I may end up taking full advantage of the rulebook's permissions to "adapt the army lists" and tweak the WD codex (using that list I posted on the previous page) to make a codex worth playing if this turns out to be pants.
And no, it doesn't say I need to ask permission to do that.
And yes, 40k is a game that requires a basic social contract between the players to be played, but that's beside the point of it that codex is pants or not.
ClockworkZion wrote: I think I may end up taking full advantage of the rulebook's permissions to "adapt the army lists" and tweak the WD codex (using that list I posted on the previous page) to make a codex worth playing if this turns out to be pants.
It's a bit early for that. Not to mention that that really isn't an option unless you only play with folks that allow homebrew.
ClockworkZion wrote: I think I may end up taking full advantage of the rulebook's permissions to "adapt the army lists" and tweak the WD codex (using that list I posted on the previous page) to make a codex worth playing if this turns out to be pants.
It's a bit early for that. Not to mention that that really isn't an option unless you only play with folks that allow homebrew.
Page 108 of the rulebook (at least in The Rules version of the book) under "Army Lists". It's a completely "legal" and "valid" way to play. Just don't be a dick about it and let them know in advance so they can know what to expect.
And I did say "I may" and "if this turns out to be pants". I'm not committing, just saying it's an option on the table.
ClockworkZion wrote: Page 108 of the rulebook (at least in The Rules version of the book) under "Army Lists". It's a completely "legal" and "valid" way to play. Just don't be a dick about it and let them know in advance so they can know what to expect.
And I did say "I may" and "if this turns out to be pants". I'm not committing, just saying it's an option on the table.
But, as you said in an earlier post, social contract. Most players do not agree to homebrew.
ClockworkZion wrote: Page 108 of the rulebook (at least in The Rules version of the book) under "Army Lists". It's a completely "legal" and "valid" way to play. Just don't be a dick about it and let them know in advance so they can know what to expect.
And I did say "I may" and "if this turns out to be pants". I'm not committing, just saying it's an option on the table.
But, as you said in an earlier post, social contract. Most players do not agree to homebrew.
Yeah, but I hang out at a pretty casual FLGS so it's less of an issue for me.
"Hey, mind if I used a tweaked Sororitas Codex? I just added in some old stuff they used to be able to take and adjusted it to match the current edition."
"Sure."
And if they say no then I say "Well, then this is my count-as Salamanders Army."
You mean the WD one we currently have? The one I'm so tired of using because it has a lot of automatic choices that lock me into a singular list? The codex that made me want to start a new army because I was running out of ways to adapt?
ClockworkZion wrote: You mean the WD one we currently have? The one I'm so tired of using because it has a lot of automatic choices that lock me into a singular list? The codex that made me want to start a new army because I was running out of ways to adapt?
Yeah, I'd rather homebrew or count-as instead.
No no no. The one from 2002. With redemptionists and cool faith powers.
ClockworkZion wrote: You mean the WD one we currently have? The one I'm so tired of using because it has a lot of automatic choices that lock me into a singular list? The codex that made me want to start a new army because I was running out of ways to adapt?
Yeah, I'd rather homebrew or count-as instead.
No no no. The one from 2002. With redemptionists and cool faith powers.
The one that almost no one has you mean.
I've got that Citadel Journal coming though. Should be in the mail today in fact.
Melissia wrote: If you're referring to the White Dwarf copies, those are about to be out of date and no longer legitimate.
Umm, no, he was talking about Citadel Journal 49 and I was talking about Chapter Approved 2002.
Ah, I haven't been paying that much attention to the conversation... just saw someone talking about "hard copy vs digital", which is a conversation people have had about the upcoming codex in the news section...
Well... I had a list of desires... and what we got? Not them.
Acts of Faith look to have been completely and utterly nerfed into oblivion. Each Act is one use only. Battle Sisters can no longer be Fearless. Hand of the Emperor only works when charging. Spirit of the Martyr is a 3+ FnP save. Etc.
Priests are actually useful now. In fact, I'd maybe go so far as to say vital with their new War Hymns that can grant his squad either rerolls to saves or to wound rolls... oh, and unlike Acts of Faith, they can use them every turn. Or grant themselves Smash.
Death Cultists have been nerfed to always carry Swords.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well... I had a list of desires... and what we got? Not them.
Acts of Faith look to have been completely and utterly nerfed into oblivion. Each Act is one use only. Battle Sisters can no longer be Fearless. Hand of the Emperor only works when charging. Spirit of the Martyr is a 3+ FnP save. Etc.
Priests are actually useful now. In fact, I'd maybe go so far as to say vital with their new War Hymns that can grant his squad either rerolls to saves or to wound rolls... oh, and unlike Acts of Faith, they can use them every turn. Or grant themselves Smash.
Death Cultists have been nerfed to always carry Swords.
I think the AoF being "nerfed into oblivion" is a trifle overreaction. Remember that before we were reliant on a d6 roll for a budget, and even then those acts were not terribly likely to succeed. Likewise, Simulacrums allow for 2 uses of a power in a game which, with the budget of Faith Points went, is not that huge of a nerf.
Likewise, priests are amazing and give Zealot to their units, so squads are still fearless now.
Acts of Faith have completely changed. Dominions? They get Ignores Cover as an AoF now! Which is awesome for Meltaguns, but flamers?
I guess Priests weren't selling well enough or something, since now we pretty much have to fill our army with dirty old men for our Sisters to be even near as effective as they used to be!
Yeah... just saying that I wasn't expecting much from this digital release. I'm not entirely pleased with it.... cause I really don't think the Sisters should require a priest to lead them into battle. They should be leaving the priest behind to show him how it's done... And one-off AOF suck.
... but, as I often say, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. I try to keep this in mind with every GW announcement, and I find that I am frequently less-perturbed than I might be.
One-off, unless you bring a Simulacrum and at that point, given the variable nature of the old Faith Points/AoF system, is about as much as any squad would usually get anyway.
I half-agree with the priests. The fluff is not great, but I like having a worthwhile support unit who can turn a 20-sister unit into a Hatred, re-rolling force with some decent teeth despite the low S.
I got the dex in front of me, Kalash, and yes, this is confirmed.
AoF are one-use per game and require an Ld test to go off. However, a Simulacrum (a 10 point upgrade on most squads) allows you a second use of the AoF provided you succeed in the first. Likewise, Jacobus allows a second use as well.
The AoF for various units are:
BSS - Preferred Enemy (used in the shooting or beginning of either player's assault phase)
Rets - Rending
Repentia - 3+ FNP Seraphim - Shred (shooting phase)
Doms - Ignore Cover (shooting phase)
SCS - Fleet, Crusader, Move through Cover (assault)
Celestians - Furious Charge (assault)
Priests are 25 points per, and can be bought 1-5 as a 'free' HQ slot (does not count towards total) and they come with the Hymns rule. At the start of assault phase, they can choose a Hymn and pass an Ld test, the Hymns are:
Protect - Unit re-rolls armor saves and shield of faith saves
Strength - Priest gains Smash
Righteousness - Unit re-rolls to wound
My gut reaction is to hate this... but that might just be my typical curmudgeonly nature. I'm going to have to spend some time with this and think about it.
Not sure how I feel about the upsizing of the Orders. Kind of 50/50 on it.
*Really* don't like the changes to Celestine. Not at all.
*Really* don't like how they have made Priests must-have units.
Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with what we got. The fluff was really good, and the crunch changes seem to have left us a stronger army overall. Can't wait to try this out next this Tuesday.
Furyou Miko wrote: I guess Priests weren't selling well enough or something, since now we pretty much have to fill our army with dirty old men for our Sisters to be even near as effective as they used to be!
Priestesses. I don't recall any fluff saying the Ecclesiarchy is men-only, so just use female models for all your Priests.
Maybe the Adepta Sororitas even produces female clergy from its own ranks (ordained by the Adeptus Ministorum proper) so it has priestesses with the combat training to keep up with the Battle Sisters and the gender not to be, um, distracted. (Yes, I'm assuring they pick the strictly heterosexual ones for that job...)
Yes, all right, the Imperium is "Catholic Nazis in Space," but that high concept in itself pretty much demands deviating from strict 21st century Roman Catholic doctrine.... which Pope Francis could change tomorrow, anyway, he's moving so fast.
No anti-Catholic jokes in response to this post please. N.b. I'm Episcopalian (aka Anglican outside the US & Scotland), I just don't want a huge clusterfeth of offensiveness.
EDIT: Well, dammit, the book does seem to say only males enter the clergy.... Well, they're "counts-as" super-special Sisters then.]
Gonna try a small list out tomorrow night. I feel sad for my penitent engine but overall feel these changes are for the better. And my priests will all be females. Gonna have to look around for similarly equipped female models.
AoF being once per game is a fairly big change. Apparently Priests are more zealous than Sisters now that they can pull their act every single round? Meh. Nice to see that we got Adamantium Will, though. I think this is actually something that we wished for in this thread?
Psienesis wrote:Not sure how I feel about the upsizing of the Orders. Kind of 50/50 on it.
Technically, it's not a change - previously we've been given the 100 as an average, so there had to be larger convents. I'm guessing the Minor Orders that have around 1k would be responsible for a bigger area, though, or at least some rather special task that requires them to maintain such comparatively massive numbers that they'd start to rival or even exceed the Major Orders on the latters' bad days.
It does read like a "shift in tone", though, so this will probably influence future debates concerning interpretation of SoB numbers. My personal opinion still stands.
SisterSydney wrote:Maybe the Adepta Sororitas even produces female clergy from its own ranks [...]
That doesn't sound very likely, given that priests are an alternate path that branches off in the Schola already ... But hey, who's saying that it has to be Priest-Priests? It could also be fluffed as yet another Sister from yet another Non-Militant Order accompanying the Battle Squads into war. Given how the Priest's buffs are about singing, why shouldn't there be an Order that has specialised on providing choirs? They could basically be the Sisters' marching band!
I'm kinda left wondering if we've also just witnessed a bit of a retcon in terms of Novices. Not only is there a story where a Battle Sister is approached by one as she prepares for battle, but there is also the title "Mistress of Recruits" in the convent hierarchy.
Also, another title I spotted: "Abbess of the Armoury"! ... has a pretty weird ring to it, though, given that Abbess also happens to be the title for the overall leader of all Sisters anywhere. I think I may just stick to my own idea for the name, as far as my headcanon is concerned.
Oh, and did anyone note how the Codex re-introduced the "utterly incorruptible" into our fluff description? So much for Fallen Sisters.
Eh, the having Minor Orders with thousands of Sisters is, I think, sufficient enough to significantly increase the total number of Sisters.
Since we don't know how many Orders Minor there are, even having just 10 of them across the galaxy with 1000 Sisters each is a significant increase to the number of Sisters.
10 with 1.000 is the same as 100 with 100. I don't think it really changes much, considering how vague our guesses for total numbers have been in the past.
What was your guess, by the way? I've always guesstimated their numbers at around ~100.000, with ~30k coming from the Major Orders.
Anyone else a little confused about Celestine's fluff? It seems like she's unchanged, still totally undying and popping up randomly before vanishing, but then there's a quote in there where a Famulous talks about Celestine's "disappearence". Doesn't seem to sync with the rest of the fluff.
One thing I liked seeing in the fluff was the reiteration about the Sisters policing the Ecclesiarchy. A vital duty of theirs that wasn' present in the WD codex, IIRC.
Lynata wrote: Nice to see that we got Adamantium Will, though.
Heck yeah. Pretty much everywhere, too. Very useful, very fluffy.
Lynata wrote: I'm guessing the Minor Orders that have around 1k would be responsible for a bigger area, though, or at least some rather special task that requires them to maintain such comparatively massive numbers that they'd start to rival or even exceed the Major Orders on the latters' bad days.
It does read like a "shift in tone", though, so this will probably influence future debates concerning interpretation of SoB numbers. My personal opinion still stands.
I found it interesting that nothing was said about the numbers of the Major Orders, beyond the two Convents starting out housing "tens of thousands of Sisters" and growing larger from there. Not exact numbers, but it sounds like there's maybe slightly more of them, now? Guess we'll have to wait to see what the next codex says.
But yeah, personally I'm very happy that Minor Orders got retconned up in terms of numbers. Have to say, having my own Minor Order limited to around 100 Sisters felt a little underwhelming. This way, people have more free reign in making their own Minor Order.
Lynata wrote: 'm kinda left wondering if we've also just witnessed a bit of a retcon in terms of Novices. Not only is there a story where a Battle Sister is approached by one as she prepares for battle, but there is also the title "Mistress of Recruits" in the convent hierarchy.
Must have be a retcon if they're out and about in warzones now. Maybe we'll be getting that Novice unit that some people wanted, in the future? I'm certainly interested to see if there's any further developments on this.
Lynata wrote: Oh, and did anyone note how the Codex re-introduced the "utterly incorruptible" into our fluff description? So much for Fallen Sisters.
I noticed this too! Very glad to see it. Nice that we now have an up to date studio source to counter all of those third-party things that have Sisters falling.
Also, zero mention of Miriael. Not even the "only one has fallen" line. Not gonna lie, don't mind this at all. Never really liked Miriael.
Does anyone know where the rules for the Relics are?
Oh, and I'm ignoring the AoF nerf and using AoFs each turn. I think it's ridiculous to have the Acts nerfed twice over like this, making them only once-per-battle and also require a LD test has taken them from the army's key unique trait to completely trivial.
Troike wrote:I found it interesting that nothing was said about the numbers of the Major Orders, beyond the two Convents starting out housing "tens of thousands of Sisters" and growing larger from there. Not exact numbers, but it sounds like there's maybe slightly more of them, now?
That section describes the Convent buildings in their current post-extension condition ("are massive fortresses housing tens of thousands of Sisters"). Even if it would be written in the past form, however, it would make no difference, as it includes the Non-Militant Orders, whose Major Orders have their headquarters in the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum as well. The quote from the 2nd Edition Codex, on the other hand, very specifically referred to "15.000 warriors each".
Troike wrote:But yeah, personally I'm very happy that Minor Orders got retconned up in terms of numbers. Have to say, having my own Minor Order limited to around 100 Sisters felt a little underwhelming. This way, people have more free reign in making their own Minor Order.
I still don't see the retcon. The 100 was the average, there was no upper limit aside from "not larger than the Major Orders".
Troike wrote:Also, zero mention of Miriael. Not even the "only one has fallen" line. Not gonna lie, don't mind this at all. Never really liked Miriael.
That "only one has fallen" line was also never printed anywhere outside the short story. People who claim otherwise, including certain Lexicanum editors, need to re-read the Codices.
That being said, I actually like Miriael. It's fine to have exceptions, as long as they just remain special and don't become a running gag like it almost did for Sisters in Black Library stories. As far as I'm concerned, very few things are "absolute" in 40k, which is why I was also fine with the Grey Knights' resistance to corruption apparently not being built-in but requiring special rites and paraphernalia. It's only a matter of time until we see Fallen GKs. Also, Miriael was pretty badass, showing how utterly dangerous a Battle Sister can become if her intense faith is turned upside-down, and her skills turned against those she used to serve. If even CSMs go "whoah, she's cool, I want to serve her", then in my book this totally justifies the character's existence.
Furyou Miko wrote:Indeed, although it does say that some shrines are guarded by a single Sister. heh.
Indeed the sentence implies that this is the norm (I'm interpreting "the bones of a fallen saint" = shrine), with larger numbers reserved for stuff like cathedrals. Nothing new, by the way - this bit is a copypaste from the 6E Rulebook's SoB section.
It did make me pause back then, though, thinking how this could be brought in line with earlier statements. Given the description in the fluff ("priceless sacred relics"), perhaps the Ecclesiarchy has a different idea of what constitutes a shrine than we do today? ("place that features an important relic" vs "simple altar")
Well, if we assume the smallest, least-important shrine has 1 Sister, with more Sisters at more-important Shrines, this potentially leads us to hundreds, if not thousands, of Sisters of Battle on the Shrine Worlds.
I wonder if this is intended, in some way, to bridge the gap between previous Codex fluff and the Calixis Sector in DH, which has a *whole lot* of Sisters for a relatively small area of space. Could also just be coincidental.
Sure, 100 Orders Minor with 100 Sisters is the same as 10 with 1000, but I was just using that as an example. Again, we aren't given a limit on the number of Orders Minor, so we might have, across the galaxy, 1000 Orders Minor of 100 Sisters, 500 of 1000, 4500 of 10 Sisters, 37 of just 2 Sisters (ever), and so forth and so on... potentially leading to a million-plus Sisters, especially if we have one at every shrine and temple of the Ecclesiarchy. That could, conceivably, be dozens on every major Imperial World. Hell, a Hive World probably has scores to hundreds of Shrines and Temples on it.
Well, how important is a shrine that contains the bones of an Imperial Saint? This is the bit that makes me think that whoever wrote these pieces of fluff may just have a different idea of shrines than I or we have, for by definition, a shrine does not have to contain such relics, and indeed you could have Imperial worlds where every single family has a small shrine in their home (such as with the Chinese today) - does that mean that there's a Battle Sister stationed in every single house? Also, the very same section was present in the 6E rulebook, which has reprinted the Force Disposition Charts about the 13th Black Crusade and the 3rd War for Armageddon, including its very low numbers of Battle Sisters, which, to me, thus remains a good indicator for their size.
Psienesis wrote:Again, we aren't given a limit on the number of Orders Minor, so we might have, across the galaxy, 1000 Orders Minor of 100 Sisters, 500 of 1000, 4500 of 10 Sisters, 37 of just 2 Sisters (ever), and so forth and so on... potentially leading to a million-plus Sisters
It doesn't really make sense to try and come up with detailed numbers of how many Orders there would be of different types, as we have absolutely no basic data to go from. We don't even know how many Shrine Worlds there are - it could be a dozen, it could be a thousand, and arguably this would influence the total numbers of SoB greatly. I could easily counter your numbers and say "there's 800 Minor Orders of a hundred Sisters and 10 of a thousand, and they also supply the single Sisters for the shrines", and that would be just as good a guess as yours.
And unfortunately, I think this is what GW intended, too. Details such as these have become fewer and fewer ever since the 3rd edition rulebook (which still told us how exactly a las- or a plasmagun works), and the 3E codices already were a far cry from the level of detail we were offered in earlier material. How many Storm Troopers are there? How many Sisters do the Major Orders train as Seraphim? How well does a suit of Astartes power armour protect against small arms fire? All of this we were told in 2E Codex fluff, but since that time we have never seen such detailed info again. This vagueness gives the individual gamer more room for their own ideas, but obviously it makes for a poor common ground when discussing this stuff in a larger community.
Psienesis wrote:I wonder if this is intended, in some way, to bridge the gap between previous Codex fluff and the Calixis Sector in DH, which has a *whole lot* of Sisters for a relatively small area of space.
No Sisters from Minor Orders, though - it was all various Major Orders, one of which has apparently stationed a full third of its warriors there. The numbers from the Inquisitor's Handbook were much more in line with the original material. Perhaps because Black Industries was a bit closer affiliated with GW? Blood of Martyrs really contained a lot of strange things, which unfortunately led me to dislike the book. The only good thing about it was the excellent artworks and some few clever ideas regarding the thin line between miracle and coincidence (which were then thrown out of the window by the actual rules for AoF).
It's a bit of a shame, actually. They could have used that book to come up with a Calixis-specific Minor Order, but instead they literally piled troops from almost every single Major Order onto the sector as if it'd be Ophelia itself.
Furyou Miko wrote:I'm sure that I read the Miriael thing in the codex. But now I can't even find where it says none have ever fallen.
Are you sure you're not thinking of the fake quote that was listed in the Lexicanum article about the Sisters? Because I fell for that as well, until I eventually tried looking it up... In the Lexicanum article, both was the same sentence, iirc - something like "only a single Sister has ever fallen" and then a reference to Miriael.
I also just re-read the Ecclesiarchy section of the BRB and noticed it refers to "many thousands" of Cardinals, whose jurisdictions vary in size but "can be as large as an entire star system."
(They also call a cardinal's territory a "diocese." Dammit, GW, it's bishops that have dioceses.)
Two amusing implications:
1) If every Cardinal has even one Battle Sister as a bodyguard (and to blow his head off if he turns heretic), let alone a squad, that's a lot of Sisters right there.
2) If a system contains multiple dioceses, each with its own Cardinal, but all getting security from one Minor Order Militant, the Canoness may be the highest ranking Ecclesiarchical official in the system. "No, Your Grace," she said with a cold smile, "you need to listen to me."
This relic only seems to work in one direction - if a Priest is carrying it and joins a unit, does that unit then benefit from the Relic? If the unit had the relic and the Priest joined it, the Priest would gain the benefit, but not sure if the situation is reversed.
SisterSydney wrote:If every Cardinal has even one Battle Sister as a bodyguard (and to blow his head off if he turns heretic), let alone a squad, that's a lot of Sisters right there
Yes - if. The Codex does make it sound like a temporary assignment rather than a permanent one, though: "The Adepta Sororitas also provides the protectors of the Ecclesiarchy's priesthood, and they are tasked with affording them any security and military support that may be required. At the behest of the Ministorum's priesthood, the Sisters of Battle are called upon to escort hierarchs through war zones, eliminate heretical leaders or launch surgical strikes to recover long-lost relics and artefacts from enemy hands."
Also: "The Battle Sisters may be dispatched to deal with a troublesome cardinal who has lost his way, either through their mere presence and the threat it implies, or in more serious cases by forcibly and permanently removing them from power." -> They would not have to be dispatched if they were always already there.
Besides, why else would the Battle Conclave have Crusaders as bodyguards, rather than Battle Sisters?
Interesting - overall value of my SoB army has fallen by a narrow margin, even after upgrading all the Sister Superiors to veterans whenever possible and adding some relics.
It's a bit of a shame, actually. They could have used that book to come up with a Calixis-specific Minor Order, but instead they literally piled troops from almost every single Major Order onto the sector as if it'd be Ophelia itself.
Yeah, I did, for my games. Order of the Argent Blade (not related to Argent Shroud). Black PA with silver trim. Symbol is a silver sword superimposed over an aquila with upswept wings.
And, yeah, now that I have seen the BoM, and all the other FFG books, versions of the Sisters in actual gameplay, I don't like their version very much. I have someone in my game group who is basically trying to *be* a Sister on a world that doesn't have them, using Elite Advances to buy Faith Powers and Fate Points, now that they're Ascended, having earned Pure Faith as a Cleric. The character is, basically, built to be an SoB without actually being the class. And, yes, they are magic spell dispensers. I really am not terribly keen on how it plays out.
Furyou Miko wrote: I guess Priests weren't selling well enough or something, since now we pretty much have to fill our army with dirty old men for our Sisters to be even near as effective as they used to be!
Priestesses. I don't recall any fluff saying the Ecclesiarchy is men-only...
Just downloaded the book (it popped at 11pm Eastern) and saw
“Male Progena may become Commissars or soldiers in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood of the Adeptus Ministorum. Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum."
That strongly implies there are no female priests -- or Commissars for that matter. (Sorry, Raege).
Of course, it also implies no female Progena join the Imperial Guard or Navy, but those two organizations don't recruit exclusively or even primarily from the Scholae as the Commissariat and the Sisterhood do, so that doesn't contradict the female Guard and Navy officers that show up in various sources.
Now, it's entirely possible that the Ministorum recruits clergy who aren't Progena -- in fact given its size it would probably have to -- but it's hard to imagine them thinking a non-Progena female was worthy to join when Progena ones aren't.
But never fear! I can still justify female models in those priest slots. Death Cult Assassins are (all? Almost all?) female, and who better to lead the Sororitas screaming into battle than a veteran Death Cultist who is considered a priestess by her cult and (grudgingly) recognized as equivalent-to-ordained by the Ministorum?
Alternatively, you can just say these are Sisters from some militant or even non-militant order with leadership skills (and perhaps de facto ordination) that lets them count-as Priests. But ordained DCA are funnier.
Casbyness wrote: Does anyone know where the rules for the Relics are?
Oh, and I'm ignoring the AoF nerf and using AoFs each turn. I think it's ridiculous to have the Acts nerfed twice over like this, making them only once-per-battle and also require a LD test has taken them from the army's key unique trait to completely trivial.
Or you could roll with it and play by the rules.
How many times did you use (successfully) each act each game? Did you take a simulacrum? Because now you have two. Save the nerf cries until you've read through it all the way.
SisterSydney wrote:Lynata has outfluffed me once again on numbers of Sisters. I stand corrected.
Well, it's still pretty much conjecture, so it's not like you were "wrong"! In a way, I suppose that is the one advantage of GW's "loose canon" approach - we can all see it the way we want. I'd still prefer more consistency and solid details, but it's not like I don't see the other side of the coin.
SisterSydney wrote:And then there's my other error I caught myself: “Male Progena may become Commissars or soldiers in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood of the Adeptus Ministorum. Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum."
That strongly implies there are no female priests -- or Commissars for that matter. (Sorry, Raege).
Well, GW did sell this miniature though:
Spoiler:
She was a GamesDay exclusive.
I would say that the sentence you quoted could perhaps be more about averages and standards, but still leave room for exceptions? The thing is that all these organisations are looking for related skillsets - fanatical loyalty, zeal and military skill. And .. let's face it, whilst some girls will be able to match the requirements, this will be a smaller percentage than the male progena. And since the Sisterhood gets first dibs (or so I assume, the Schola being an Ecclesiarchy facility), the Commissariat, Guard, Navy and Arbites will merely get the scraps. And even the priesthood will look for a certain martial mindset - the Ministorum is a Warrior Church, after all, so the span between someone fit for the Sisterhood (including the Non-Militant Orders), and someone not fit for military service at all (or rather: better employed in another capacity), might be comparatively small.
SisterSydney wrote:But never fear! I can still justify female models in those priest slots. Death Cult Assassins are (all? Almost all?) female, and who better to lead the Sororitas screaming into battle than a veteran Death Cultist who is considered a priestess by her cult and (grudgingly) recognized as equivalent-to-ordained by the Ministorum?
That would be a clever solution, too! Could fluff it as a local thing, perhaps? A sort of special relationship between the convent and a local sect that occasionally lets them work together, similar to how they sometimes work alongside Frateris Militia.
SisterSydney wrote:Alternatively, you can just say these are Sisters from some militant or even non-militant order with leadership skills (and perhaps de facto ordination) that lets them count-as Priests.
Exactly! You did see my post with the Whoopie Goldberg picture, right?
Furyou Miko wrote: I guess Priests weren't selling well enough or something, since now we pretty much have to fill our army with dirty old men for our Sisters to be even near as effective as they used to be!
Priestesses. I don't recall any fluff saying the Ecclesiarchy is men-only...
Just downloaded the book (it popped at 11pm Eastern) and saw
“Male Progena may become Commissars or soldiers in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood of the Adeptus Ministorum. Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum."
That strongly implies there are no female priests -- or Commissars for that matter. (Sorry, Raege).
Of course, it also implies no female Progena join the Imperial Guard or Navy, but those two organizations don't recruit exclusively or even primarily from the Scholae as the Commissariat and the Sisterhood do, so that doesn't contradict the female Guard and Navy officers that show up in various sources.
Now, it's entirely possible that the Ministorum recruits clergy who aren't Progena -- in fact given its size it would probably have to -- but it's hard to imagine them thinking a non-Progena female was worthy to join when Progena ones aren't.
But never fear! I can still justify female models in those priest slots. Death Cult Assassins are (all? Almost all?) female, and who better to lead the Sororitas screaming into battle than a veteran Death Cultist who is considered a priestess by her cult and (grudgingly) recognized as equivalent-to-ordained by the Ministorum?
Alternatively, you can just say these are Sisters from some militant or even non-militant order with leadership skills (and perhaps de facto ordination) that lets them count-as Priests. But ordained DCA are funnier.
I have two Priests in my army that are Order Famulous members used for "count as" Priests. Sigvald also makes a nice base for better looking priests (see my Gallery for a couple of examples).
Just downloaded the book (it popped at 11pm Eastern) and saw
“Male Progena may become Commissars or soldiers in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood of the Adeptus Ministorum. Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum."
That strongly implies there are no female priests -- or Commissars for that matter. (Sorry, Raege).
Of course, it also implies no female Progena join the Imperial Guard or Navy, but those two organizations don't recruit exclusively or even primarily from the Scholae as the Commissariat and the Sisterhood do, so that doesn't contradict the female Guard and Navy officers that show up in various sources.
That is stupid. For the Adeptus Astartes, it means one less way in which a candidate might be physically incompatible with the gene mods necessary to turn them into a Space Marine. For the Adepta Sororitas, it means paying lip service to the wording of the Decree Passive, letting the High Lords of Terra concede that Thor was right without admitting that it wasn't their plan all along. For anything else, the Imperium should not care. Black or white, man or woman, gay or straight, as long as you're not a mutant and your allegiance lies with the Emperor, you should be welcome.
That is stupid. For the Adeptus Astartes, it means one less way in which a candidate might be physically incompatible with the gene mods necessary to turn them into a Space Marine. For the Adepta Sororitas, it means paying lip service to the wording of the Decree Passive, letting the High Lords of Terra concede that Thor was right without admitting that it wasn't their plan all along. For anything else, the Imperium should not care. Black or white, man or woman, gay or straight, as long as you're not a mutant and your allegiance lies with the Emperor, you should be welcome.
Black or white, gay or straight, man or woman, as long as you're willing to lead an aesthetic lifestyle of denial and purity - according to the 2e C:SoB, sin comes in many forms: drinking, gambling, lying, cheating, profanity, lechery, fornication (especially thinking about fornication).
So, you can be gay, as long as you never act on it. So really, they're indirectly condemning the gays. The only reason this doesn't bring out a surge of righteous anger in me is because they also condemn the straights in the same breath, and as we all know, Slaanesh is a thing.
_____________________________________
Anyway, my priests are probably going to be a mix of Sabines and Pronatus. The only issue with this is that Priests can't wear power armour. ><
That is stupid. For the Adeptus Astartes, it means one less way in which a candidate might be physically incompatible with the gene mods necessary to turn them into a Space Marine. For the Adepta Sororitas, it means paying lip service to the wording of the Decree Passive, letting the High Lords of Terra concede that Thor was right without admitting that it wasn't their plan all along. For anything else, the Imperium should not care. Black or white, man or woman, gay or straight, as long as you're not a mutant and your allegiance lies with the Emperor, you should be welcome.
Black or white, gay or straight, man or woman, as long as you're willing to lead an aesthetic lifestyle of denial and purity - according to the 2e C:SoB, sin comes in many forms: drinking, gambling, lying, cheating, profanity, lechery, fornication (especially thinking about fornication).
Which is why they wear corsets, lip stick, and tight fitting powered armor
That is probably due to sexual repression though. I mean, if I was like that, I would probably end up wearing lip stick, a corset, high heels and go around setting people on fire as well. It would be like Dr.Frankenfurter crossed with the Punisher
Nice to see that the Sisters are still purging the Astartes
None are immune – planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic, and been exterminated as such by the Adepta Sororitas.
This seems to be imply there are alot more Sisters:
Every concentration of the Adeptus Ministorum’s power must be defended, and a force of Battle Sisters will be present to guard every shrine and fortress-cathedral in the Imperium, as well as the priceless sacred relics housed within them
I am personally going to ignore the bit about only males becoming Commissars
Noticed that they never mention the "Brides of the Emperor" title and the dancing and serving as Companions to Vandire has gone
Those quotes are actually nothing new - they were from WD #382 and the 6th edition core rulebook. And as such I'm still maintaining that nothing has changed regarding the numbers (we did talk a bit regarding this on the previous page).
As for the details regarding the Age of Apostasy you mentioned, I just take it as either saving space, or the author not remembering. Not all the fluff is copypasta, "just" about two thirds, and a lot of the texts seem cobbled together, scavenged from different sources.
As long as it's not explicitly retconned ...
That being said, I do find it strange how there's still not even a single word regarding the alliance with the Ordo Hereticus. I'm beginning to believe that GW may just want to erase this from history, but we would probably have to wait until the Inquisition skirmish game to be sure.
The Astartes purgign was more just glad it was stil there
Yeah I have now read that bit properly - and I agree about the difficulty of defining a Shrine......
I figured they were glossing over the less savory aspects of the Daughters / Brides during Vandires reign
It is strange about the Ordo Hereticus but then it does bring it back more to the Sisters being more of a stand alone and hence justifying the Codex more? I guess they want to keep Inquisition as a Grey Knights thing.
Sure, I have no problem with a shift in perception - which is what the 3E Witch Hunter Codex was - but I'm kind of sceptical about just retconning this relationship away entirely. Removing something is always more tricky than adding something, for with the latter you could easily say it was always part of it (which is how they explained the WH Codex). But to just cut out a fairly established (10 years!) role by ommission? Hmmh.
I dunno, I don't really have a problem with it per se, it's just that I am used to the studio material being relatively consistent, so I'm a bit annoyed when such a fairly important thing is just "written away", even if it's done only by not mentioning it ever again. It probably has to do with the 3E Codex being how I first "met" the Sisters, so I grew up with the Chamber Militant role even though I always focused on the Sisters' church aspect and left away the Inquisition stuff as an interesting but ultimately optional aspect of the army.
As for the Grey Knights/Inquisition ... they still have the Deathwatch, too. Last featured in the Damnos scenario book, with this formation: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2160206a It's really just the Ordo Hereticus that kind of goes away empty-handed right now. But as I said, this may change with future products. We can only wait and see...
'Nother interesting fluff update I noticed was Seraphim Superiors being some of the most respected individuals in an Order. Makes sense, considering the high status of Seraphim themselves.
Lynata wrote: That section describes the Convent buildings in their current post-extension condition ("are massive fortresses housing tens of thousands of Sisters")
But immediately after that, it talks about the Orders growing larger and them splitting each of the Convents into two different Orders Militant respectively. So I assume it's meant for the past tense.
Lynata wrote: I still don't see the retcon. The 100 was the average, there was no upper limit aside from "not larger than the Major Orders".
Oh, actually the WD codex in fact said that 100 was the minimum, and did not even specify an average size. Just that "some" were only 100 strong. So it's not a retcon but additional detail, which is always nice.
Also, I think that 1000 strong Minor Orders is far more than expected. Under the numbers given for Major Orders in previous books, that's quite a large chunk of the Order splitting off.
Lynata wrote: That "only one has fallen" line was also never printed anywhere outside the short story.
I know, I was just wondering if a reference to her would be put in. But thankfully, it wasn't.
Lynata wrote: That being said, I actually like Miriael. It's fine to have exceptions, as long as they just remain special and don't become a running gag like it almost did for Sisters in Black Library stories.
Eh. I still don't like how they ignored the codex fluff in making her, it feels like they didn't do their research. Also I don't like how she fell to Slaanesh. To me, that just feel like the Chaos God than an SoB is least likely to fall to. Sisters live lives a life of denying self-indulgence and excess, after all. If it had to be one, then Khorne makes the most sense.
Mr Morden wrote: I figured they were glossing over the less savory aspects of the Daughters / Brides during Vandires reign
Possibly, but they didn't go into very much detail about Vandire's reign in general. I thought they were pretty brief about it, really.
If you were a Sister, would you want to go into detail about it??
My headcanon is that all the fluff is written by in-universe propagandists, and that many members of the organizations depicted would in fact find what's written about them exaggerated or outright embarrassing. I imagine that the Ultramarines in particular are mostly modest, average-Joe types who just cringe when someone starts spouting Ward's stuff at them.
SisterSydney wrote: If you were a Sister, would you want to go into detail about it??
Maybe not about the dodgier stuff, but the Reign of Blood in general would be fine (and a fine warning to future Sisters), and certianly the part about Vandire dying.
I wish they had the "I'm too busy to die!" quote in there. It really summed up what a nutter Vandire was.
That's because they obviously don't have any models ready yet.
Tell me, would you prefer updated, buyable rules without new models, or outdated, awkward to obtain rules without new models?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote: Apparently Priests are more zealous than Sisters now that they can pull their act every single round? Meh.
Ah, but it's not an Act, just a special rule. All the Priests are doing is singing a bit to inspire themselves and their comrades, not pushing their bodies to near-impossible feats.
Furyou Miko wrote: Black or white, gay or straight, man or woman, as long as you're willing to lead an aesthetic lifestyle of denial and purity - according to the 2e C:SoB, sin comes in many forms: drinking, gambling, lying, cheating, profanity, lechery, fornication (especially thinking about fornication).
So, you can be gay, as long as you never act on it. So really, they're indirectly condemning the gays. The only reason this doesn't bring out a surge of righteous anger in me is because they also condemn the straights in the same breath, and as we all know, Slaanesh is a thing.
Given that the Imperium is a product of the 25th millenium and that the Catholic church has been extinct for at least five thousand years before the creation of the Adepta Sororitas, I don't think an open-and-shut "sex outside of marriage is bad" stance makes sense. I'd prefer a de facto ban just because a Sister's schedule is too busy for romance.
Lynata wrote: That being said, I actually like Miriael. It's fine to have exceptions, as long as they just remain special and don't become a running gag like it almost did for Sisters in Black Library stories.
Eh. I still don't like how they ignored the codex fluff in making her, it feels like they didn't do their research. Also I don't like how she fell to Slaanesh. To me, that just feel like the Chaos God than an SoB is least likely to fall to. Sisters live lives a life of denying slef-indulgence and excess, after all. If it had to be one, then Khorne makes the most sense.
I'd actually say Nurgle makes the least sense. Nurgle can only attack the Sisters at their strongest point - their trust in the Emperor - and that is why Nurgle would always fail.
Tzeentch would fail for the same reason - because if they wanted what Tzeentch could offer them, they would not have become Sisters in the first place.
Slaanesh makes sense for some cult of Sister-wannabes that got the wrong idea about sacrifice (like that story in the 3rd edition rulebook), admiring suffering for suffering's sake instead of doing great things with suffering as the price. To a Sister scarification would be an undesirable indulgence, but one of these cultists might see a Sister's scars as something to be emulated for its own sake and not merely the price paid to do great things.
But yes, if a Sister was ever going to fall to Chaos, it would be to Khorne. They share a hatred of psykers, and their methods are not dissimilar. If a Sister forgot why she was killing heretics and started killing heretics for killing's sake, that would be an opening for Khorne to exploit.
I love reading this list and laughing at players who think they'll actually get any love from GW.
In sincerity, I expect your codex to be almost exactly the same, with a ton of fluff, Saint Celestine normalized, and one other unit to become the "Must take" of your codex.
felixander wrote: In sincerity, I expect your codex to be almost exactly the same, with a ton of fluff, Saint Celestine normalized, and one other unit to become the "Must take" of your codex.
At best.
It's already out, and you're wrong. They've actually changed quite a bit. Overall, thing've improved. We got some more viable builds, and most units became more effective, with a few remaining about the same. The new AoF system especially got an overhaul. It isn't bad, being fully scaling and more reliable. Sure, Act are now only one-use, but there's a lot of tricks you can pull to improve that. Simulacrum gives you a second use of an Act, and Laud Hailers let you re-roll your leadership rolls for successful Acts. Celestine did get toned down a bit and is no longer completely unkillable, but she did get some nice buffs besides that.
Furyou Miko wrote: Black or white, gay or straight, man or woman, as long as you're willing to lead an aesthetic lifestyle of denial and purity - according to the 2e C:SoB, sin comes in many forms: drinking, gambling, lying, cheating, profanity, lechery, fornication (especially thinking about fornication).
So, you can be gay, as long as you never act on it. So really, they're indirectly condemning the gays. The only reason this doesn't bring out a surge of righteous anger in me is because they also condemn the straights in the same breath, and as we all know, Slaanesh is a thing.
Given that the Imperium is a product of the 25th millenium and that the Catholic church has been extinct for at least five thousand years before the creation of the Adepta Sororitas, I don't think an open-and-shut "sex outside of marriage is bad" stance makes sense. I'd prefer a de facto ban just because a Sister's schedule is too busy for romance.
That's a direct quote from the old codex, lol.
In any case, the point about Slaanesh was more that banning fornication is really a pretty good idea.
The thing about Miriael is that she didn't fall to the carnal aspect of Slaanesh that everyone obsesses over. She fell to the same thing that Lucius fell to - the codex line states that she is "One of Slaanesh's greatest warriors" - not followers, not cultists, not whores... warriors.
I don't know the full story, but I would take that to mean that she showed excessive pride in her martial abilities and fell into the search for perfectionism. Which makes her Lucius the Eternal's rival, which would make a pretty awesome buddy movie.
I am absolutely 100% certain that there is a line in the 2e codex that states "Such is the purity and faith of the Sisters of Battle that in four thousand years since their inception, only a single Sister has fallen to chaos..." then the above line.
However, I can't even find the part of the 2e codex where it states that Sisters are Incorruptible right now, so...
Troike wrote:So I assume it's meant for the past tense.
Well, it's not written in past tense, though.
But as I said, it doesn't matter anyways because not every Sister in the Convent Prioris or Sanctorum is a Battle Sister. All that the new fluff implies here is that the number of Non-Militant Orders sharing the convent buildings is not enough to drive the total to "hundreds of thousands". This is indeed new (as the older books only talked about Battle Sisters) and, though assumed before, nice to see in written form.
Troike wrote:Oh, actually the WD codex in fact said that 100 was the minimum, and did not even specify an average size. Just that "some" were only 100 strong. So it's not a retcon but additional detail, which is always nice.
We were given an average once ... *rummages* ah, here: "... as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters ..." - 5E rulebook, Defenders of the Imperium
I thought it makes sense, considering the sizes of Mission (~50) and Commandery (up to 200) level forces given in the 3E Witch Hunter Codex. Commandery in particular was said to be "a term used to describe a smaller convent, perhaps little more than a shrine and a garrison of Battle Sisters cloistered together to defend it", whereas Preceptory (up to 1.000) was said to apply to larger convents "maintained by some, notably the Greater Orders", which does sound as if they'd be an exception for Minor ones.
So ... all of this is fluff we had before, it dates back right to the 3E Codex which had established Minor Orders as subsidiary convents in the first place.
Troike wrote:Also, I think that 1000 strong Minor Orders is far more than expected. Under the numbers given for Major Orders in previous books, that's quite a large chunk of the Order splitting off.
It does fit with the fluff about Preceptories, though - they are said to be the Major Orders' largest formations, and up to 1k strong. The new Codex even mentions how a Preceptory can begin to develop an identity of its own when stationed away from its maternal Ordo Maioris for longer duration, including even subtle changes on their livery (remember the red stripes on the Argent Shroud robes in the other thread, where I said this wouldn't work? well it would now!). This is pretty much the first step to splitting off as a Minor Order.
Troike wrote:Eh. I still don't like how they ignored the codex fluff in making her, it feels like they didn't do their research. Also I don't like how she fell to Slaanesh. To me, that just feel like the Chaos God than an SoB is least likely to fall to. Sisters live lives a life of denying self-indulgence and excess, after all. If it had to be one, then Khorne makes the most sense.
It depends on how you think about absolutes in 40k, I guess. In my mind, just about anything could happen at least once. As for Slaanesh - I think it fits. They are surrounded by violence all the time, accustomed to it, and focusing it in a specific manner. But excess? Whoah. That's like giving sweets to a child that grew up eating nothing but stale bread. Although ... actually, one could well argue that Sisters are prone to certain types of excess:
"Religious ecstasy is an altered state of consciousness characterized by greatly reduced external awareness and expanded interior mental and spiritual awareness, frequently accompanied by visions and emotional (and sometimes physical) euphoria. Although the experience is usually brief in time, there are records of such experiences lasting several days or even more, and of recurring experiences of ecstasy during one's lifetime. Subjective perception of time, space and/or self may strongly change or disappear during ecstasy." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy
And technically, all it takes is a Repentia Mistress and/or her charges beginning to enjoy their role/s a little too much - all under the conviction that they are doing the Emperor's work. How's that for dipping into the smut section?
Troike wrote:Ah, but it's not an Act, just a special rule. All the Priests are doing is singing a bit to inspire themselves and their comrades, not pushing their bodies to near-impossible feats.
I think it's basically the same thing, really. What is an Act of Faith, if not inspiration that results in improved ability? I'm pretty sure the term "inspiration" was actually used in at least one source when describing AoF.
Furyou Miko wrote:However, I can't even find the part of the 2e codex where it states that Sisters are Incorruptible right now, so...
I know I've seen that line not in the 2E Codex, but in a White Dwarf that was released around the same time. I think you are mixing things up, Sister!
"The Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant have many strengths. They are recruited from the fastest, strongest and most adept individuals to be raised in the Schola Progenium. Their training is total, honed across the millennia to ensure that every Battle Sister is more than a match for almost any foe. Their weapons and armour are amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce. These factors alone would make the Battle Sisters a mighty weapon in the Emperor's arsenal, but that is not all. The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for His honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure; there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible. The Battle Sisters are one of the few bastions standing between humanity and extinction. The Sororitas must defeat alien dominance, rogue psykers, daemonic influence, heretics, blasphemers and apostates, or everything the Emperor has striven to build and protect will be lost." - WD #211
Furyou Miko wrote:I don't know the full story, but I would take that to mean that she showed excessive pride in her martial abilities and fell into the search for perfectionism. Which makes her Lucius the Eternal's rival, which would make a pretty awesome buddy movie.
I don't think so - in the story, she was captured by the Emperor's Children and subjected to whatever-they-did for at least several weeks, if not months. Maybe even a Daemon Prince, if her story is any indication. I think at some point they just reached her breaking point, either by physical or psychic manipulation, but more probably a mixture of both. When she was seen next, she had switched. And she was rather creepy about it. That doesn't make her any less of a warrior, though...
Spoiler:
"I’m cold," said Lowen Tegget. He sat down, and hunched his head between his knees. He was tired. There was a dreadful stench of blood in the air of the great hall, like hot iron. "Cold can be ignored," said the shadows. "Says you. I’m cut here. You cut me." Miriael Sabathiel emerged from the darkness, sword in hand, and bent down beside him. "You’ll heal. You’re mine now. Daemon princes sing and my pulse quickens. Soon yours will quicken too." "Throne," Tegget sighed. "Am I cursed? Have you cursed me?" "You were the invitation, Lowen. You helped me defeat my enemies. I’m showing my gratitude by sparing your life... and sharing with you the wonders I’ve seen." Tegget groaned. Miriael Sabathiel straightened up and held out her arm. The two kestrel lures swooped in and perched there. One was dripping with blood. "I like you, Lowen. I like your toys. They please me. You could serve me." "How, lady?" "Oh, Lowen Tegget. By being you. You are a cunning man. A fine killer. See, tonight you did for two sisters of battle. There is nothing you can’t do." Tegget smiled and shook his head sadly. "I’m just a catcher of men, lady," he said. She reached out her hand and began to stroke his shaggy hair. "You’re so much more than that, Lowen," she said. "You’re my friend, and you’re an instrument now. I’d like you to walk with me and serve at my side." He looked up at her, his face pale and frightened. "Is this what corruption feels like?" he asked. She nodded, still stroking his head. "Feels good," he admitted. "Where will we go?" "Ah, now, my little hunter," Miriael Sabathiel said, "how are you at hunting Eldar?"
- excerpt from The Invitation, by Dan Abnett
... as I said, creepy, but kind of cool.
You have to understand that Miriael is no ordinary "trololol burn everything rape the women where's the cocaine" CSM ... she is a Warlord, a Champion of Slaanesh, and she has amassed an incredibly powerful host with which she wages her own little crusade in the Pyrus Reach, with a flotilla of ships, and a bodyguard of Daemonettes and EC Terminators to obey her every whim as her cult forces ravage one world after another.
Self flagellate in the temple a little bit? You could also wear the modern cilice which is more band of spikes to the thigh and would let you fight without sacrificing armor protection and still successfully mortify thy traitorous flesh.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Self flagellate in the temple a little bit? You could also wear the modern cilice which is more band of spikes to the thigh and would let you fight without sacrificing armor protection and still successfully mortify thy traitorous flesh.
Hair shirts fit under your clothes, they're worn more like an undergarment, and because of the lack of Black Carapace it wouldn't interfer with the Power Armor.
Speaking of cilices, did anyone else ever notice the left thigh of the middle Sister here?
Spoiler:
I like to think it's a metal band with spikes driven through the armour plating. I really want to make this a piece of equipment for my homebrewed Only War SoB rules ...
The amount of detail Jes put into these miniatures continues to amaze me.
(PS: edited some more stuff about Miriael into my previous post, for anyone who's interested in her background)
Troike wrote: What codex line talks about Miriael? I've heard from a few people that she doesn't appear in any codex.
She does not. She appears in a 3rd-party 40K-themed CCG and a short story by Dan Abnett. She has never been, and continues not to be, a Codex or Studio character.
@Lynata
So then, is that stuff on the 40k wiki where she corrupts Argent Shorud Sisters and Black Templars from the card game too? Just wondering if that actually came from anywhere, or if it really is just fanfiction.
Lynata wrote: It depends on how you think about absolutes in 40k, I guess.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, then. All I know is that we have up to date studio fluff describing them as incorruptible, which I'm inclined to believe over third-party works.
Though what's odd is that this seems to contradict what happened with the Bloodtide. Some of the Sisters present were corrupted by the Bloodtide, which is itself referenced in the codex. I suppose you can hand-wave it away as 40K being intentionally vague/contradictory/ect, but it still seems odd.
Lynata wrote: But excess? Whoah. That's like giving sweets to a child that grew up eating nothing but stale bread.
But these children have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that stale bread is the best thing ever, and that sweets are digusting abominations that must be purged.
Lynata wrote: I think it's basically the same thing, really. What is an Act of Faith, if not inspiration that results in improved ability?
But it's not classed as one. Also, note that the description for it is literally the priest yelling some words out. Acts of Faith are more the Sisters pushing themselves to great feats, while this is basically a priest gathering the resolve to deliever a really good hymn. Yeah, I'd say that the Sisters specifically still very much have something unique in the Acts of Faith.
None of the Sisters were corrupted by the Bloodtide. They were horrifically mutated and warped, but they weren't corrupted, morally speaking.
I think with the Priest, you need to decide that he's inspiring the Sisters to use their Faith in new ways... except for the Smash thing. That's just... what.
Furyou Miko wrote: None of the Sisters were corrupted by the Bloodtide. They were horrifically mutated and warped, but they weren't corrupted, morally speaking.
But the fluff for the Bloodtide, unfortunately, does outright use the word "corrupted" when talking about the Sisters who were affected by it.
Troike wrote:So then, is that stuff on the 40k wiki where she corrupts Argent Shorud Sisters and Black Templars from the card game too? Just wondering if that actually came from anywhere, or if it really is just fanfiction.
I have not seen it anywhere except on wikis or forums, if that helps. Now, in theory, there could of course be something I missed, but given my previous experiences with "people on the internet" as a source, and that I spent quite a bit of time looking for fluff about Miriael (as I said, I like her), personally I would not expect it.
Troike wrote:I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, then. All I know is that we have up to date studio fluff describing them as incorruptible, which I'm inclined to believe over third-party works.
It depends on how you want to make the Bloodtide or Sister Anastasia's temporary affliction with the Zombie Plague fit in with it. One could simply dispose of the latter as dated sources, only looking for the newest material. I for one tend to look for a "middle ground" - a philosophy that also served me well in reigning in certain uber-epic stories about the Space Marines.
Also, occasionally I feel an almost perverse pleasure in poking holes into certain texts that just sound too much like legend or propaganda to me, often thinking up a kind of "what if" scenario that seeks the most scientific/rational explanation rather than embracing the EPIC. Which is why I'm an ardent defender of Acts of Faith as a willpower and training thing rather than space magic or the Emperor himself intervening.
Another example for this would be the bits about how the Emperor supposedly created the Space Marines, which is surely how the people of the Imperium would learn about it nowadays ... yet in 2E there was a GW short story that featured the Emperor visiting a lab and having the Astartes explained to him by his chief scientist - so in this story, the Emperor had no hand in the Marines' creation other than assigning a budget and telling a bunch of eggheads to make him a couple supersoldiers. I love how the millennia would twist this truth into some religious fairytale about the Emperor being a Jack-of-all-Trades who did everything himself. This kind of historical revisionism is, in a way, quite grimdark itself! And let's not even go into my "what if" scenarios about the Golden Throne and the Astronomican ...
Troike wrote:But these children have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that stale bread is the best thing ever, and that sweets are digusting abominations that must be purged.
That's why it works ... until you put one in their mouth.
Troike wrote:But it's not classed as one. Also, note that the description for it is literally the priest yelling some words out. Acts of Faith are more the Sisters pushing themselves to great feats, while this is basically a priest gathering the resolve to deliever a really good hymn. Yeah, I'd say that the Sisters specifically still very much have something unique in the Acts of Faith.
Semantics. Why do you think Acts of Faith are rolled on the squad leader's Ld? Because it is the Sister Superior that inspires and guides her troops, with words and gestures, just like the Priest. Of course a Sister also has the faith to (potentially) trigger AoF by herself - but in the same way you could argue that the Priest is capable of doing so as well, for his singing also affects himself.
Furyou Miko wrote:None of the Sisters were corrupted by the Bloodtide. They were horrifically mutated and warped, but they weren't corrupted, morally speaking.
Yeah, it's a bit "problematic" how the text uses the term corruption, as we (and quite certainly a number of GW authors too) tend to use it in the sense of "turned against the Imperium", yet it can and sometimes does mean nothing more but getting sick - which is what happened to the Sisters with the Bloodtide. It is important to note how they were not turned, they just couldn't fight anymore and were taken out of action.
Troike wrote:But these children have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that stale bread is the best thing ever, and that sweets are digusting abominations that must be purged.
That's why it works ... until you put one in their mouth.
Weren't you on the other side of this debate, before? When it was about Mitchell's smokes and drinks Sister? Though I guess you'll respond along the lines of Slaaneshi corruption being more powerful than the temptation to take up smoking, which is a fair point. But even then, Sisters have resistance to psychic influence and a distinct aversion to offers of self-indulgence/excess to begin with. I'm just not seeing Slaanesh of having any real "way in" when it comes to the Sisters.
Lynata wrote: Semantics. Why do you think Acts of Faith are rolled on the squad leader's Ld?
I did change my view above, once the smash thing was pointed out. The gaining of smash itself ties in too neatly with the rest of the AoFs to be disregarded, really.
Lynata wrote: yet it can and sometimes does mean nothing more but getting sick - which is what happened to the Sisters with the Bloodtide. It is important to note how they were not turned, they just couldn't fight anymore and were taken out of action.
But that's not what happened to the priests who got touched by it, they went mad and started abducting citizens to use as Blood Sacrifices. One would assume it had a similar effect on the Sisters.
Before, I was basically using the explanation of "oh, they didn't fall willingly, just got overpowered". which I guess still works, sort of. Can't be corrupted willingly, but can be forced to turn against their will with extremely powerful warp influnece.
Troike wrote:Weren't you on the other side of this debate, before? When it was about Mitchell's smokes and drinks Sister?
I'm firmly against a Sister being willing to "give it a try", which is really the main problem here. I don't think Mitchell's Superior (who wasn't even supposed to be there in the first place, but the same goes for the novices ...) was forced to pick up drinking and smoking in the same manner that Miriael was forced. Sabathiel certainly resisted, at first, and probably held out much longer than an ordinary human might have. They just didn't let her die, and she didn't go completely insane, so here we are.
Troike wrote:But even then, Sisters have resistance to psychic influence and a distinct aversion to offers of self-indulgence/excess to begin with.
Resistance to psychic influence, yes, but complete immunity? Especially when coupled with physical torment that kind of messes with one's ability to concentrate and pray or even think clearly?
And I don't really think Miriael was "offered" anything - not at first, anyways.
Troike wrote:But that's not what happened to the priests who got touched by it, they went mad and started abducting citizens to use as Blood Sacrifices. One would assume it had a similar effect on the Sisters.
Well, that's not how the text describes it - the Sisters that were afflicted by the Bloodtide were ripped apart by the daemonic hordes shortly after giving in. Perhaps they would have started acting weird if they would not have been killed immediately. We'll never know. But I prefer to see it as it merely weakening their resolve, preventing them from fighting properly, and thus having their defences break down, allowing them to be overrun.
Kind of like what happened to Anastasia who broke into fever after contracting the plague. And yet she still healed herself, by the power of her faith.
... unless we're playing one of my evil "what if" games again and assume that young Anastasia just got acne, and none of the older Sisters was able to tell her because she had locked herself in her cell.
Troike wrote:Before, I was basically using the explanation of "oh, they didn't fall willingly, just got overpowered". which I guess still works, sort of. Can't be corrupted willingly, but can be forced to turn against their will with extremely powerful warp influnece.
Truth be told, I never was a fan of this "willingly/unwillingly" distinction. Did Miriael fall willingly? I certainly don't agree. If she had not been captured, she'd still be a loyal servant to the Emperor. The "willing" bit sounds too much as if the CSM were like "hey, wanna join Chaos?" and she'd just be like "Okay!"
To me, there is no difference as to whether one breaks due to torture or because of psychic powers. What matters is that these were active external influences, that one needed to be broken, rather than giving in to abstract promises and doubt. There is a connection between the two (in that the former is followed by the latter), but I still think it's an important difference as to whether the Ruinous Powers only needed the latter to pull you to their side, or if they had to force you.
Basically, if there was a seed of doubt already present that just needed nurturing, or if this seed had to be forcibly implanted first.
Lynata wrote: Sabathiel certainly resisted, at first, and probably held out much longer than an ordinary human might have. They just didn't let her die, and she didn't go completely insane, so here we are.
Lynata wrote: Resistance to psychic influence, yes, but complete immunity? Especially when coupled with physical torment that kind of messes with one's ability to concentrate and pray or even think clearly?
And I don't really think Miriael was "offered" anything - not at first, anyways.
Hmm, fine. I suppose that is feasible enough. Though I'm still going to disregard her, myself.
Lynata wrote: Well, that's not how the text describes it - the Sisters that were afflicted by the Bloodtide were ripped apart by the daemonic hordes shortly after giving in.
Not exactly. I'm reading it now, and it says that it was those who endured who got killed by the Daemons. The corrupted Sisters are pretty much only mentioned in the sentence in which they are corrupted. They just vanish from all mention after that, leaving us to assume that the Knights or their fellow Sisters killed them.
Lynata wrote: but I still think it's an important difference as to whether the Ruinous Powers only needed the latter to pull you to their side, or if they had to force you.
So we basically agree, then? Because that's really all I'm saying, there being a distinction between outright mindjacking and a more willing, knowing acceptance of corruption.
Troike wrote:Not exactly. I'm reading it now, and it says that it was those who endured who got killed by the Daemons. The corrupted Sisters are pretty much only mentioned in the sentence in which they are corrupted. They just vanish from all mention after that, leaving us to assume that the Knights or their fellow Sisters killed them.
Hmm, I suppose it could be read in both ways:
"Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls."
I guess I just took "most" to include not only "those who endure" but any Battle Sister.
Either way, the text does not have them "turn", so crisis avoided.
Troike wrote:So we basically agree, then? Because that's really all I'm saying, there being a distinction between outright mindjacking and a more willing, knowing acceptance of corruption.
Oh, if you phrase it like that, then yes!
My position is merely that there never was a Battle Sister who willingly and knowingly accepted corruption - not even Miriael. I just take their sheltered and extremely interdependent lifestyle to be too much of a safeguard against it. Basically, their "trigger" is set so low, that the Sisters even confess sins that aren't "true" sins (in that they'd lead to corruption), allowing the Order to take appropriate measures ... either by cleansing her from her shame and doubt, or by moving her into the Repentia. Either way, the extreme sense of loyalty and dedication for their superiors serves as a nice safeguard.
Simultaneously, I could think that those Sisters who are operating largely alone, such as the Sisters Sabine who are even forced to "go native" in the pursuit of their infiltration duties, are somewhat more at risk from "contamination" - but then again, this probably extends more towards the general lifestyle, rather than actually falling to Chaos.
felixander wrote: In sincerity, I expect your codex to be almost exactly the same, with a ton of fluff, Saint Celestine normalized, and one other unit to become the "Must take" of your codex.
At best.
It's already out, and you're wrong. They've actually changed quite a bit. Overall, thing've improved. We got some more viable builds, and most units became more effective, with a few remaining about the same. The new AoF system especially got an overhaul. It isn't bad, being fully scaling and more reliable. Sure, Act are now only one-use, but there's a lot of tricks you can pull to improve that. Simulacrum gives you a second use of an Act, and Laud Hailers let you re-roll your leadership rolls for successful Acts. Celestine did get toned down a bit and is no longer completely unkillable, but she did get some nice buffs besides that.
I'm not sure why you'd bother spending points to buff most units' acts of Faith though. They're mostly awful.
Canoness - Hatred, but you don't want to be in CC anyway. If you're building a CC unit, add a priest and you get Hatred constantly instead of one game turn.
SCS - Movement abilities that can only be used in the assault phase, AFTER you've made charge moves. Their ability is nigh-pointless.
Celestians - Furious Charge in a non CC unit. Woopee.
Repentia - Gives 3+ FnP which is amazing! BUT it can only be used in an assault phase, WHEN you attack (so it doesn't work against overwatch).
BSS - Preferred Enemy. Good, no argument here.
Dominion - Ignore Cover. Flamers have it, Meltas are generally used on vehicles which rarely have cover, and no one uses storm bolters. Another nigh-pointless ability.
Seraphim - Shred. Same as before, still useful.
Retributors - Rending. Too bad it's unreliable for HBs since you use it before you shoot (and thus may not rend at all). Fine when you could use it each turn, not so fine when it's a crapshoot.
So for 8 units with Acts of Faith, 2 are useful. BSS and Seraphim. We'll say 2.5 with a suicide easy-bake oven. But I'm not sure why you would take one when you could have an Exorcist in that slot.
Acts of Faith were pretty bad in the WDex. They somehow managed to become worse. They may be easier to use, but they're actually less "reliable" in the sense you can't activate them as often as you could. For a unit like Retributors, that basically breaks the unit.
I would argue that, in the end, Miriael *does* willingly turn to Chaos. Yes, she was being tortured in unimaginable ways by the Emperor's Children... and we know what they did the last time they were on Terra... but, well, death is always an option. Especially in the Imperium.
Her turn may have been heavily coerced, but, in the end, there was some small part of her that preferred life under Chaos rather than death with purity.
That's exactly where I just cannot agree! Certainly I would expect that every single Sister is trained to perform "self-martyrdom" in order to not let herself be captured by the enemies of the Imperium (and I love how, in Faith & Fire, James Swallow introduced the idea of the Chaplet Ecclesiasticus holding a hidden blade for this specific purpose), but as we know this just doesn't always work, and even the Founding Saints of the Sisterhood had members who were captured alive. And once in the hands of the enemy ... well, maybe they just would not let her die? Perhaps she would not have yielded if it had been some random cultists torturing her to death over the course of hours - but the Emperor's Children, and possibly even a Daemon Prince? I'm sure they have ways to extend a captive's suffering, if only to have more "fun" with her. I think she just went mad at some point. I mean, just look at how she talks and acts ...
And if you're argueing that way, then everyone falls willingly, because even with mind control there must have been "some small part" of the victim that gave in, for as we know a strong mind can lessen and even reject psychic powers.
Eh, what's her face, M'Shen, she survived in the hands of the Night Lords for, what, three days? Four? And she was just an Assassin... they had also removed all four of her limbs and all of her suicide-teeth and other tricks, and she *still* held out.
Even then, she only gave them a partial answer, which granted her a quick death, so she still ended up trollololing them, in the end, to a degree.
Dominons AOF - well given things like unit so Warlockas adn farseer on bikes, Ageis Defence lines, Wave Serpents and other stuff - totally ignoring cover is an important ability - especially with melta guns...........
The Assasin - yes she survived four days of constant torture which started with the removal of her limbs etc and all the various skills of the Night Lords - but I don;t get the "only an Assassin" - they are some of the most formidable individuals in the Imperium and have formidable powers of resistance.
Armour of Faith -lets hope for its inclusion - big upgrade for the cannoness
Miriael - Is it confirmed thats its still her and not something wearing her body like Fulgrim was for some time? I do agree that by choosing to live - she has become corrupted and hence disrupts the "none who have ever fallen" for isntance those few Sisters who were mind controlled by a Chaos Warmaster in the Cains Last Stand novel immediately kill themselves when they regain control of their minds and body, but they never willingly accept the corruption and choose life as a follower of Chaos.
IGnores Cover with four to five meltaguns is insanely powerful. Remember, meltaguns are also our primary TEq killing weapon as well as our main anti-tank.
Assassins have never been stated to be 'incorruptible', is the point - Sisters have.
Canoness - Hatred, but you don't want to be in CC anyway. If you're building a CC unit, add a priest and you get Hatred constantly instead of one game turn.
SCS - Movement abilities that can only be used in the assault phase, AFTER you've made charge moves. Their ability is nigh-pointless.
Hatred could be nice, if you HAD to get into CC rather than building a CC unit where you'd want a priest. I'd agree about the command squads AOF, with the new squad build, Relentless would have been nice to keep.
Celestians - Furious Charge in a non CC unit. Woopee.
Repentia - Gives 3+ FnP which is amazing! BUT it can only be used in an assault phase, WHEN you attack (so it doesn't work against overwatch).
Furious Charge might have been worthwhile in a CC equipped SCS, but Celestians got left out in the cold again. So many missed opportunities to actually do something with them, As far as Repentia, they're never going to make it into CC anyways having lost their regular FnP. Again, some lost opportunities.
BSS - Preferred Enemy. Good, no argument here.
Dominion - Ignore Cover. Flamers have it, Meltas are generally used on vehicles which rarely have cover, and no one uses storm bolters. Another nigh-pointless ability.
BSS is good, Dominions is better. Scouting Dominions who can ignore the cover on all those skimmers, bikes, FMC's, jetbikes, and the like. Sorry, I think melta dominions are one of the best things in the Dex. Would the AoF carry over to a model manning an AA gun to avoid jink saves?
Seraphim - Shred. Same as before, still useful.
Retributors - Rending. Too bad it's unreliable for HBs since you use it before you shoot (and thus may not rend at all). Fine when you could use it each turn, not so fine when it's a crapshoot.
It still isn't horrible for HB's, they don't always NEED to have rending. And its great for HF or MM Rets, I hate it when MM Rets rolls 1's to wound, which seems like all the time.... (when I ran them way way way back of course)
So for 8 units with Acts of Faith, 2 are useful. BSS and Seraphim. We'll say 2.5 with a suicide easy-bake oven. But I'm not sure why you would take one when you could have an Exorcist in that slot.
Acts of Faith were pretty bad in the WDex. They somehow managed to become worse. They may be easier to use, but they're actually less "reliable" in the sense you can't activate them as often as you could. For a unit like Retributors, that basically breaks the unit.
Although I disagree about the Dominions, at least a lot of the bad ones are on units I don't see anyone fielding much anyways. I fully intend to use my Repentia as Arco-flagellants. Sisters Dialogus as Priests, who are much better buffs for any units you might have stumble into CC anyways. Will probably just end up loading up on Immo's or Repressors with the obligatory Exorcists. Get close and burn stuff, hope to either mob over or outlast any CC threats that remain. While the rest gets burnt down. Would like to dust off my four HF rets again, been over a decade since I fielded them.
Would have like to see Repentia and PE's keep FnP base, and pick up shrouded as an AoF. Would have been nice to give Celestians blessed ammo and Preferred Enemy everyone, all the time. Taking those two units out of the mix drops you to 6 AoF, 1 is awesome, 2 are useful, 1 is useful depending on how you use your Rets, and two are bad. Unless you favor building a CC Canoness to run in with a CC command squad, not sure that thought ever crossed my mind.
streamdragon wrote: SCS - Movement abilities that can only be used in the assault phase, AFTER you've made charge moves. Their ability is nigh-pointless.
This one is indeed odd, but I'm hoping it'll get FAQ'd.
streamdragon wrote: Dominion - Ignore Cover. Flamers have it, Meltas are generally used on vehicles which rarely have cover, and no one uses storm bolters. Another nigh-pointless ability.
Ah, but you're forgetting that a five woman squad can now take four special weapons. Before, five woman squads could only take two, but could make them twin-linked. Of course, four special weapons are better than two possibly twin-linked weapons, so this new AoF is essentially a straight upgrade. And, as Morden pointed out, it really is useful against certain targets.
streamdragon wrote: Retributors - Rending. Too bad it's unreliable for HBs since you use it before you shoot (and thus may not rend at all). Fine when you could use it each turn, not so fine when it's a crapshoot.
It's not so bad, Everybody already had a Simulacrum on that unit before anyway, so you get two rounds of rending HBs, at least. They'll also probably be near the Exorcists anyway, so they have easy access to some Laud Hailers to ensure that they pass their leadership tests for their AoF.
Furyou Miko wrote: How does REnding help MM Retributors? Are you EVER going to run into an AV 20+ vehicle?
My apologies, blurred the Dominions AoF in with the Rets AoF. The rend isn't as good as before sure, but it has more viability now with the HF ret squad.
Furyou Miko wrote: Armour of Faith... same stats as Armour of St. Katherine? Probably just a proofing error.
Doubt it's a proofing error when it links to the Canoness page. It could just be a kind of Artificer Armor with a built in Rosarius which would have been fitting for the army.
The Canoness needs more love -- and wargear -- and special upgrade options similar to Chapter Tactics only for Major Orders & their offshoots. So of course I homebrewed some. Comments eagerly welcomed.
Psienesis wrote:Eh, what's her face, M'Shen, she survived in the hands of the Night Lords for, what, three days? Four? And she was just an Assassin... they had also removed all four of her limbs and all of her suicide-teeth and other tricks, and she *still* held out. Even then, she only gave them a partial answer, which granted her a quick death, so she still ended up trollololing them, in the end, to a degree.
In some Black Library novel. Remember, that's the same origin that routinely lets Sisters fall to Chaos in large numbers. In Codex fluff, what happened to her is entirely unknown.
Though, hypothetically, it could always be argued that as an operative of the Assassinorum she'd have her pain senses stunted or disabled entirely through some biochemical mumbo-jumbo, specifically to resist interrogation upon capture. This wouldn't work for Sisters, because rather than trying to get rid of pain they embrace it and thrive upon it, using it as a conduit for their spiritual cleansing and as a proof of their faith.
Mr Morden wrote:Miriael - Is it confirmed thats its still her and not something wearing her body like Fulgrim was for some time? I do agree that by choosing to live - she has become corrupted and hence disrupts the "none who have ever fallen" for isntance those few Sisters who were mind controlled by a Chaos Warmaster in the Cains Last Stand novel immediately kill themselves when they regain control of their minds and body, but they never willingly accept the corruption and choose life as a follower of Chaos.
Given that psychic intrusion can be fend off by a strong mind, in that case I could well argue that those silly novel Sisters have "chosen to give in to corruption" as well. They seem to agree, given that they've killed themselves, seeing they were not strong enough. I just don't see the difference between being thrown out of one's balance by psychic, or by physical torture. Either twists your mind beyond the "normal" allure of Chaos promises. Especially since we don't know what exactly Miriael has suffered.
As for "something wearing her body", she certainly acts like an angry Ex-Sister rather than something else merely possessing her:
"By the power of the Throne, and the God-Emperor-" Karamanz began. "Shut up! I won’t listen to that anymore."
I have to say, I actually like how Abnett portrayed the Sisters here. Making their appearance something special, and even hinting at juvenat treatments of the Canoness, or that she has her own shuttle. It also is a delicious suggestion that what we read in a Codex may just as well be flawed propaganda, regardless of whether this concerns the fantastical exploits of the Space Marines, or the incorruptability of the Sororitas. Which is what we've been told by authors all the time, if you remember.
PS: That story is also the one and only bit of fluff that ever featured the "none have ever fallen" in the first place. If you disregard it, there is nothing to disrupt.
I think there is a fundemental difference between the loss of control over your physical body or mind and accepting or even embracing it. Going back to the infamous Bloodtide - to me it implies that the Sisters bodies were tainted by the Choas plague but they did not cause them to embrace or accept the cause of the Heretic and cultist?
If you have no control over your mind and /or body and its simply used - thats beyond your control - minds and bodies can be broken but if you are not complicit then you have been corrupted yourself only destroyed and in the 40K universe you would still have a place with the Emperor.
The Powers of Chaos can aminmate the dead, Possess bodies living or dead but if you are not complicit than you are not corrupt. You can coniditon your body to resist damage and ignore pain but wounds still occur and have effects.
thanks for the links - Read through the story and it certainaly seems like she is a Sister but then thats what a clever Daemon would want its enemies to think perhaps?? I did think that not wanting to hear the praise of the Emperor is also possibily the reacition of a Daemon but yeah it could just be her not wanting to be reminded etc - which also makes as much or more sense.
re the Assassin, The Night Lords do talk about how they have countered her bio-chemical defences, its only her will that enables her to last 4 days - far longer than anyone else they have tortured - however I doubt she relishes the honour. Wasn't Mirials fluff that she lasted much longer- is that from somewhere specific?
Mr Morden wrote:If you have no control over your mind and /or body and its simply used - thats beyond your control
Not if one argues that you have to give up that control first. Psychic powers can be resisted - this is what the Shield of Faith and Adamantium Will are all about. So if it still happens, your conviction, your faith simply was not strong enough. So how is this different from breaking under torture..?
I can only say I have much less of a problem with Miriael being broken after howevermany weeks of physical and psychic torture, than with droves of Sisters being mind-controlled like good little puppets.
Mr Morden wrote:Wasn't Mirials fluff that she lasted much longer- is that from somewhere specific?
I don't think this was ever specified anywhere. The Order had written her off as dead, and then she reappeared. To my knowledge, there is literally no fluff about Miriael whatsoever other than this short story and the artworks that accompany her CCG cards.
I just re-read the story myself and noticed many details I didn't catch last time, or maybe have just forgotten. For example that Miriael gives us the name of her boss:
I guess the story just applies to both my interpretation of the setting, as well as my love for certain types of dramatic narration:
"Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion."
I think this just sounds much better, somewhat more realistic even, than full no-exceptions-regardless-of-what-happens-marysue-immunity. Matter of taste, though.
Well only if you argue that if you die you have given up control over your body? and also that all those Sisters that were physically corrupted by the Blood tide but may have remained loyal to the Emperor and either killed themselves or allowed themselves to be killed re also corrupt?? That I can't really agree with?
Likewise several Sisters were captured in the Siege of Vraks, held captive and tortured for years but do not appear to have succumbed in spirit - even if they were broken in mind and body.
I know you hate them but...........its not hoards - its several - likely 4 or 5 - going by the source material.......
And the your quote is good - in fact its the whole point behind the Mind Controlled Sisters in that story - the Warmaster has a few to show the enormity of his power - "What a trophy" If I can control them - no one is safe etc. But even he can not touch their spirits...............which for me is the essence of the Sororitas?
Mr Morden wrote:Well only if you argue that if you die you have given up control over your body?
Hum? That was referring to mind control of living people.
After all, if your faith was strong enough, you'd have succeeded on that Adamantium Will roll.
Mr Morden wrote:and also that all those Sisters that were physically corrupted by the Blood tide but may have remained loyal to the Emperor and either killed themselves or allowed themselves to be killed re also corrupt?? That I can't really agree with?
That's my point. They all had no choice. None of them fell willingly - not Miriael, not the Sisters at the Bloodtide. In every single case, the corruption was not invited (as is the case with seduction) but forced upon them.
In short, in my opinion, Miriael is much, much closer to the Bloodtide-Sisters or Rosetta Anastasia, than to some random Chaos schmuck where a daemon just had to be like "Hey, want power?" and he replied "Hell yeah!"
You seem to think the opposite?
Mr Morden wrote:Well only if you argue that if you die you have given up control over your body?
Hum? That was referring to mind control of living people.
After all, if your faith was strong enough, you'd have succeeded on that Adamantium Will roll.
Mr Morden wrote:and also that all those Sisters that were physically corrupted by the Blood tide but may have remained loyal to the Emperor and either killed themselves or allowed themselves to be killed re also corrupt?? That I can't really agree with?
That's my point. They all had no choice. None of them fell willingly - not Miriael, not the Sisters at the Bloodtide. In every single case, the corruption was not invited (as is the case with seduction) but forced upon them.
In short, in my opinion, Miriael is much, much closer to the Bloodtide-Sisters or Rosetta Anastasia, than to some random Chaos schmuck where a daemon just had to be like "Hey, want power?" and he replied "Hell yeah!"
You seem to think the opposite?
Yes but she has - if I am reading the story right - not just been broken in body and mind but taken it to the next step - she has embraced Chaos - which none of the others have done?
They lost thier lives and / or minds - she lost her Soul - Not sure if I am making my arguments very well but thats the difference I see. At some point she became complicit in a way that none of the others did? So whatever they went through they are stiill "uncorrupted" in the sense of keeping thier soul pure - she is not.
Mr Morden wrote:So whatever they went through they are stiill "uncorrupted" in the sense of keeping thier soul pure - she is not.
They seem to disagree, otherwise they would not have killed themselves.
Which, by itself, is a rather odd choice - if they have sinned by allowing their possession, they have now committed the double-sin of also not giving their soul to the Emperor upon death. A proper Sister should have sought redemption in the Repentia Corps.
Anyways, I understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it. In this case it does not matter if you embrace Chaos or not, because at this point you already were no longer in control of yourself. You were broken. Exactly like mind-control means you were no longer yourself. In both cases it was forced upon you, not a conscious decision made at free will.
The way I see it, the critical factor is the "moment of decision" and what sort of intentions you had. You can either invite corruption by falling prey to its allure, or you can try to resist and still be broken. Miriael's case, to me, firmly falls into the latter category. As do the Bloodtide-Sisters. As do your mind-controlled novel Sororitas.
(wow, this is almost a theological debate we're having - I could see the Ecclesiarchy discussing stuff like this all day )
hmmm The difficulty is we don't what happened to Miriael - we just know the outcome............at some point someone or more likely something must have said to her - join with us and all this will stop - the moment of choice / damnation?
"Daemon princes sing and my pulse quickens."
The Sisters in the Siege of Vraks are broken but not corrupt...........they get burnt by the Inquisition to the outrage of the Sororitas and various members of the Ordo Hereticus but like the Bloodtide Martyrs - they are Martyrs as they stayed true to their beliefs no matter what was done to them? Sisters for millenia have been killed in hrrific ways, subject to abuse by powers of the Warp and the Xenos - that they stodd true despite their lack of immunity shows the true nature of their faith.
Agreed - this is a debate about the nature of corruption and the purity of souls
I just read Sacrifce by Ben Counter in a complilation - now I am not a fan of his work but it describes well what is needed to maintian the Imperium in this case for the Grey Knights - how the weapons and armour that they use are consecrated and the sacrifces that are made. It may not be cannon but it was good stuff - the first story is about consecrated bolt rounds - so as the protagonst fires his gun we switch to see how the bolt round was consecrated in the blood of a "good man" -as the Cardinal says - what use is the sarcifce of a sinner. Then we have Psykers being consumed in fire to temper the agesis of the armour - it just seemed very 40k to me.................
Lynata wrote: I think this just sounds much better, somewhat more realistic even, than full no-exceptions-regardless-of-what-happens-marysue-immunity. Matter of taste, though.
If you want realism, torture does not work. We've got plenty of evidence of that, most recently from the CIA sabotaging the search for Bin Laden by using torture to extract false information from prisoners. You can claim that the torturers in this case have extraordinary tools at their disposal, but so does a Sister of Battle. Having the most powerful psychic entity in the setting at your back and knowing it, and having this as the number one recruitment requirement from a population of trillions, does not give you people who will fall to Chaos. Finding this immunity a coincidence when it is an implicit prerequisite of joining the organisation is as absurd as wondering why the entire roster of the Chicago Bulls are of above average height.
Mr Morden wrote:I just read Sacrifce by Ben Counter in a complilation - now I am not a fan of his work [...]
Really? But he wrote Daemonblood!
Mr Morden wrote:[...] but it describes well what is needed to maintian the Imperium in this case for the Grey Knights - how the weapons and armour that they use are consecrated and the sacrifces that are made. It may not be cannon but it was good stuff - the first story is about consecrated bolt rounds - so as the protagonst fires his gun we switch to see how the bolt round was consecrated in the blood of a "good man" -as the Cardinal says - what use is the sarcifce of a sinner. Then we have Psykers being consumed in fire to temper the agesis of the armour - it just seemed very 40k to me.................
I have to say, that does sound fitting. Almost tempts me to give it a try, too ...
What compilation was that in? A general short story one, or was it just about Marines?
AlexHolker wrote:If you want realism, torture does not work. We've got plenty of evidence of that, most recently from the CIA sabotaging the search for Bin Laden by using torture to extract false information from prisoners.
That's kind of a flawed comparison, though. In your example about the CIA's torture of prisoners, they wanted information, and they (for the most part) likely had little in the way of actually confirming whether the statements extracted from prisoners are true or false.
In the case of Miriael, there are two important things to consider:
- the Emperor's Children very likely did not want information, for them it was probably part of their games just like what they did on Terra during the Heresy. As such, Miriael had no way of escaping prolonged exposure.
- one does not simply renounce the Emperor. Whilst they might be willing to lie about military matters, if an EC-CSM asks you "do you renounce your False Emperor?", and the victim actually says "yes" to gain a reprieve, then she has already forsaken her oath and her faith, even if it was intended as a lie.
AlexHolker wrote:Having the most powerful psychic entity in the setting at your back and knowing it, and having this as the number one recruitment requirement from a population of trillions, does not give you people who will fall to Chaos. Finding this immunity a coincidence when it is an implicit prerequisite of joining the organisation is as absurd as wondering why the entire roster of the Chicago Bulls are of above average height.
Another flawed comparison. "Faith" cannot be quantified like body heights or genetic purity. The Schola and the Sororitas have many means to test the convictions of their members, and put it to the test daily, but there is no such thing as an "official willpower level" with solid numbers where one just needs to look up a chart and say yes or no - and I am quite certain that whatever Miriael had to go through is not something that would be considered a good test for applicants...
Oh hey, one of my wishes (maybe made ITT, but definetely made on /tg/) was sort of granted. I wanted Celestians to be more adaptable, and with the Command Squad, we've gotten that. The Celestians in there are now very versatile indeed, and can take a large variety of weapons. Going to enjoy tinkering with them., will probably buy several models to swap around as needed so that they can adapt to whatever they'll be going against.
So, interesting tidbit, Cruddace claimed in a letter that the SoB were one of his favourite armies. Given that, it's quite possible that he could be working on the proper update when it gets made. Thoughts? Personally I'm more comfortable with the idea than I was before, since I think he did an okay job with the digital dex, and we came out a better, more interesting army than we were before. However some may still have their reservations about they guy.
Troike wrote:Oh hey, one of my wishes (maybe made ITT, but definetely made on /tg/) was sort of granted. I wanted Celestians to be more adaptable, and with the Command Squad, we've gotten that. The Celestians in there are now very versatile indeed, and can take a large variety of weapons. Going to enjoy tinkering with them., will probably buy several models to swap around as needed so that they can adapt to whatever they'll be going against.
Agreed. Honestly, I still think they're missing shields (something that is almost suspiciously absent from the army, given the symbolical meaning), but hey .. power weapons make them a lot more dangerous in CC than they were before, befitting a bodyguard.
Giving every single Celestian a Condemnor gun just to mess with enemy psykers almost lets me grimace a trollface, too.
Too bad that this customisability doesn't extend to normal Celestian squads, but I suppose one cannot have everything.
Troike wrote:So, interesting tidbit, Cruddace claimed in a letter that the SoB were one of his favourite armies. Given that, it's quite possible that he could be working on the proper update when it gets made. Thoughts? Personally I'm more comfortable with the idea than I was before, since I think he did an okay job with the digital dex, and we came out a better, more interesting army than we were before. However some may still have their reservations about they guy.
Well, I think he did a good job with IG (even though I still miss the old doctrines), so ... why not?
It depends on what opinion he has on certain specific aspects of their fluff and gameplay, but that's hard to gauge without an interview.
Is it certain he wrote the digital dex, by the way? I was confused by it not listing any names whatsoever.
Lynata wrote: It depends on what opinion he has on certain specific aspects of their fluff and gameplay, but that's hard to gauge without an interview.
Well... He did say that they're one of his favourites, and I'd assume he's seen the fluff in the last two codexes at least, since he was involved in writing them. I'm hoping that translates into aptitude at writing their fluff, but we can't be sure. As for gameplay, well, here's the letter he wrote to MadCowCrazy:
MadCowCrazy wrote: PS. The Sisters of Battle are indeed one of my favourite armies and I completely
agree with you on your comments about them excelling in the 12-18" range. In my
mind they are typified as a close-ranged shooting army, and the Acts of Faith are
what helps to give an edge in a fight (and hence make them feel unique). I also think
you're 'on the money' in regards to not giving plasma, lascannons or rocket
launchers - in my opinion an army is as much defined by those weapons they do not
have as well as those they do.
He seems to have an adequate understanding of their playstyle, and the digital codex was allright. On the whole, I'm cautiously optimistic about him.
Lynata wrote: Is it certain he wrote the digital dex, by the way? I was confused by it not listing any names whatsoever.
The iTunes version credits him for it, and what he said at Games Day seems to indicate that he was very much involved with writing the thing.
Troike wrote:Well... He did say that they're one of his favourites, and I'd assume he's seen the fluff in the last two codexes at least, since he was involved in writing them. I'm hoping that translates into aptitude at writing their fluff, but we can't be sure.
Yeah, even "favourite army" can mean a lot when we consider deviating interpretations. We're certainly debating minor details all the time here. As for the Witch Hunter Codex ... well, "additional material", I don't think he had too much to do with it...
But yeah, let's wait and see, huh? He's certainly one of the better choices currently in the studio. Liking an army already goes a long way to doing it justice, even if there's differences in interpretation concerning some things.
For the moment, the only one I could think of as being a better choice would be Andy Hoare, just because he was our champion in the studio and has a long history with this army ... alas, he's no longer there.
Troike wrote:The iTunes version credits him for it
Honestly, I'm a bit irritated at GW for how the two versions differ from one another. How hard is it to put ONE document into TWO file formats?
Lynata wrote: As for the Witch Hunter Codex ... well, "additional material", I don't think he had too much to do with it...
Oh, when I said "last two codexes" I meant the new digital one and the WD one. I'm counting them as two codexes for the purposes of this point, since the digital one was actually pretty different.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.
Definitely. Something I really want to do with Celestians is model them all with Sabbat helms with fleurs on them, as they appear in the artwork. But this isn't so easy to do with a lot of the current models, especially if you want to convert up some melee Celestians. Distinct models, preferably plastics, would help immensely with this.
Troike wrote:Oh, when I said "last two codexes" I meant the new digital one and the WD one. I'm counting them as two codexes for the purposes of this point, since the digital one was actually pretty different.
Oh. I interpreted "the last" as "not the current one".
Troike wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.
Definitely. Something I really want to do with Celestians is model them all with Sabbat helms with fleurs on them, as they appear in the artwork. But this isn't so easy to do with a lot of the current models, especially if you want to convert up some melee Celestians. Distinct models, preferably plastics, would help immensely with this.
As long as they're not ending up too different ... It's really just the lily on the models that do have a helmet - and the golden trim on the armour, but that's done in painting.
That being said, the new customisability - especially with the Command Squad bodyguard - would certainly work much better with plastics where you could easily swap weapons/gear.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: A distinct Celestian model would be something to tack on to the wish list.
Definitely. Something I really want to do with Celestians is model them all with Sabbat helms with fleurs on them, as they appear in the artwork. But this isn't so easy to do with a lot of the current models, especially if you want to convert up some melee Celestians. Distinct models, preferably plastics, would help immensely with this.
I did just that with my Celestians. Used a small green-stuff mold (made from a sister superior with a fleur helm) to create little fleurs and attached them to the helmeted Battle Sisters that I extracted from the packs. Results were mixed.
I then insured that I had no non-celestians (excepting superiors) wearing helms, green-stuffed hoods onto all my Troops choices, and painted the celestians with white robes, rather than black (like the rest of the army). My Sisters are probably my most converted army
Heated blade grants Armourbane (IE: 
Man, 
