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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Alas, I have failed. I will wear hair for the next four battle in penitence and sing the Praise Alicia nine times without rest.

I think you mean a hair shirt.

Self flagellate in the temple a little bit? You could also wear the modern cilice which is more band of spikes to the thigh and would let you fight without sacrificing armor protection and still successfully mortify thy traitorous flesh.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Self flagellate in the temple a little bit? You could also wear the modern cilice which is more band of spikes to the thigh and would let you fight without sacrificing armor protection and still successfully mortify thy traitorous flesh.

Hair shirts fit under your clothes, they're worn more like an undergarment, and because of the lack of Black Carapace it wouldn't interfer with the Power Armor.

Speaking of cilices, did anyone else ever notice the left thigh of the middle Sister here?


I like to think it's a metal band with spikes driven through the armour plating. I really want to make this a piece of equipment for my homebrewed Only War SoB rules ...

The amount of detail Jes put into these miniatures continues to amaze me.

(PS: edited some more stuff about Miriael into my previous post, for anyone who's interested in her background)

 Troike wrote:
What codex line talks about Miriael? I've heard from a few people that she doesn't appear in any codex.

She does not. She appears in a 3rd-party 40K-themed CCG and a short story by Dan Abnett. She has never been, and continues not to be, a Codex or Studio character.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Alas, I have failed. I will wear hair for the next four battle in penitence and sing the Praise Alicia nine times without rest.

I think you mean a hair shirt.

Yes, exactly. "wearing hair" is just an archaic way of saying it.

@Lynata
So then, is that stuff on the 40k wiki where she corrupts Argent Shorud Sisters and Black Templars from the card game too? Just wondering if that actually came from anywhere, or if it really is just fanfiction.

 Lynata wrote:
It depends on how you think about absolutes in 40k, I guess.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, then. All I know is that we have up to date studio fluff describing them as incorruptible, which I'm inclined to believe over third-party works.

Though what's odd is that this seems to contradict what happened with the Bloodtide. Some of the Sisters present were corrupted by the Bloodtide, which is itself referenced in the codex. I suppose you can hand-wave it away as 40K being intentionally vague/contradictory/ect, but it still seems odd.

 Lynata wrote:
But excess? Whoah. That's like giving sweets to a child that grew up eating nothing but stale bread.

But these children have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that stale bread is the best thing ever, and that sweets are digusting abominations that must be purged.

 Lynata wrote:
I think it's basically the same thing, really. What is an Act of Faith, if not inspiration that results in improved ability?

But it's not classed as one. Also, note that the description for it is literally the priest yelling some words out. Acts of Faith are more the Sisters pushing themselves to great feats, while this is basically a priest gathering the resolve to deliever a really good hymn. Yeah, I'd say that the Sisters specifically still very much have something unique in the Acts of Faith.

None of the Sisters were corrupted by the Bloodtide. They were horrifically mutated and warped, but they weren't corrupted, morally speaking.

I think with the Priest, you need to decide that he's inspiring the Sisters to use their Faith in new ways... except for the Smash thing. That's just... what.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
None of the Sisters were corrupted by the Bloodtide. They were horrifically mutated and warped, but they weren't corrupted, morally speaking.

But the fluff for the Bloodtide, unfortunately, does outright use the word "corrupted" when talking about the Sisters who were affected by it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
except for the Smash thing. That's just... what.

Huh. Yeah, I guess that's basically the same as an Act of Faith. Hyping themselves up to up their strength.

Troike wrote:So then, is that stuff on the 40k wiki where she corrupts Argent Shorud Sisters and Black Templars from the card game too? Just wondering if that actually came from anywhere, or if it really is just fanfiction.

I have not seen it anywhere except on wikis or forums, if that helps.
Now, in theory, there could of course be something I missed, but given my previous experiences with "people on the internet" as a source, and that I spent quite a bit of time looking for fluff about Miriael (as I said, I like her), personally I would not expect it.

Troike wrote:I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, then. All I know is that we have up to date studio fluff describing them as incorruptible, which I'm inclined to believe over third-party works.

It depends on how you want to make the Bloodtide or Sister Anastasia's temporary affliction with the Zombie Plague fit in with it. One could simply dispose of the latter as dated sources, only looking for the newest material. I for one tend to look for a "middle ground" - a philosophy that also served me well in reigning in certain uber-epic stories about the Space Marines.

Also, occasionally I feel an almost perverse pleasure in poking holes into certain texts that just sound too much like legend or propaganda to me, often thinking up a kind of "what if" scenario that seeks the most scientific/rational explanation rather than embracing the EPIC. Which is why I'm an ardent defender of Acts of Faith as a willpower and training thing rather than space magic or the Emperor himself intervening.

Another example for this would be the bits about how the Emperor supposedly created the Space Marines, which is surely how the people of the Imperium would learn about it nowadays ... yet in 2E there was a GW short story that featured the Emperor visiting a lab and having the Astartes explained to him by his chief scientist - so in this story, the Emperor had no hand in the Marines' creation other than assigning a budget and telling a bunch of eggheads to make him a couple supersoldiers. I love how the millennia would twist this truth into some religious fairytale about the Emperor being a Jack-of-all-Trades who did everything himself. This kind of historical revisionism is, in a way, quite grimdark itself!
And let's not even go into my "what if" scenarios about the Golden Throne and the Astronomican ...

Troike wrote:But these children have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that stale bread is the best thing ever, and that sweets are digusting abominations that must be purged.

That's why it works ... until you put one in their mouth.

Troike wrote:But it's not classed as one. Also, note that the description for it is literally the priest yelling some words out. Acts of Faith are more the Sisters pushing themselves to great feats, while this is basically a priest gathering the resolve to deliever a really good hymn. Yeah, I'd say that the Sisters specifically still very much have something unique in the Acts of Faith.

Semantics. Why do you think Acts of Faith are rolled on the squad leader's Ld? Because it is the Sister Superior that inspires and guides her troops, with words and gestures, just like the Priest.
Of course a Sister also has the faith to (potentially) trigger AoF by herself - but in the same way you could argue that the Priest is capable of doing so as well, for his singing also affects himself.

Furyou Miko wrote:None of the Sisters were corrupted by the Bloodtide. They were horrifically mutated and warped, but they weren't corrupted, morally speaking.

Yeah, it's a bit "problematic" how the text uses the term corruption, as we (and quite certainly a number of GW authors too) tend to use it in the sense of "turned against the Imperium", yet it can and sometimes does mean nothing more but getting sick - which is what happened to the Sisters with the Bloodtide. It is important to note how they were not turned, they just couldn't fight anymore and were taken out of action.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:But these children have been indoctrinated from birth to believe that stale bread is the best thing ever, and that sweets are digusting abominations that must be purged.

That's why it works ... until you put one in their mouth.

Weren't you on the other side of this debate, before? When it was about Mitchell's smokes and drinks Sister? Though I guess you'll respond along the lines of Slaaneshi corruption being more powerful than the temptation to take up smoking, which is a fair point. But even then, Sisters have resistance to psychic influence and a distinct aversion to offers of self-indulgence/excess to begin with. I'm just not seeing Slaanesh of having any real "way in" when it comes to the Sisters.

 Lynata wrote:
Semantics. Why do you think Acts of Faith are rolled on the squad leader's Ld?

I did change my view above, once the smash thing was pointed out. The gaining of smash itself ties in too neatly with the rest of the AoFs to be disregarded, really.

 Lynata wrote:
yet it can and sometimes does mean nothing more but getting sick - which is what happened to the Sisters with the Bloodtide. It is important to note how they were not turned, they just couldn't fight anymore and were taken out of action.

But that's not what happened to the priests who got touched by it, they went mad and started abducting citizens to use as Blood Sacrifices. One would assume it had a similar effect on the Sisters.

Before, I was basically using the explanation of "oh, they didn't fall willingly, just got overpowered". which I guess still works, sort of. Can't be corrupted willingly, but can be forced to turn against their will with extremely powerful warp influnece.

Troike wrote:Weren't you on the other side of this debate, before? When it was about Mitchell's smokes and drinks Sister?

I'm firmly against a Sister being willing to "give it a try", which is really the main problem here. I don't think Mitchell's Superior (who wasn't even supposed to be there in the first place, but the same goes for the novices ...) was forced to pick up drinking and smoking in the same manner that Miriael was forced. Sabathiel certainly resisted, at first, and probably held out much longer than an ordinary human might have. They just didn't let her die, and she didn't go completely insane, so here we are.

Troike wrote:But even then, Sisters have resistance to psychic influence and a distinct aversion to offers of self-indulgence/excess to begin with.

Resistance to psychic influence, yes, but complete immunity? Especially when coupled with physical torment that kind of messes with one's ability to concentrate and pray or even think clearly?
And I don't really think Miriael was "offered" anything - not at first, anyways.

Troike wrote:But that's not what happened to the priests who got touched by it, they went mad and started abducting citizens to use as Blood Sacrifices. One would assume it had a similar effect on the Sisters.

Well, that's not how the text describes it - the Sisters that were afflicted by the Bloodtide were ripped apart by the daemonic hordes shortly after giving in. Perhaps they would have started acting weird if they would not have been killed immediately. We'll never know. But I prefer to see it as it merely weakening their resolve, preventing them from fighting properly, and thus having their defences break down, allowing them to be overrun.

Kind of like what happened to Anastasia who broke into fever after contracting the plague. And yet she still healed herself, by the power of her faith.

... unless we're playing one of my evil "what if" games again and assume that young Anastasia just got acne, and none of the older Sisters was able to tell her because she had locked herself in her cell.

Troike wrote:Before, I was basically using the explanation of "oh, they didn't fall willingly, just got overpowered". which I guess still works, sort of. Can't be corrupted willingly, but can be forced to turn against their will with extremely powerful warp influnece.

Truth be told, I never was a fan of this "willingly/unwillingly" distinction. Did Miriael fall willingly? I certainly don't agree. If she had not been captured, she'd still be a loyal servant to the Emperor. The "willing" bit sounds too much as if the CSM were like "hey, wanna join Chaos?" and she'd just be like "Okay!"
To me, there is no difference as to whether one breaks due to torture or because of psychic powers. What matters is that these were active external influences, that one needed to be broken, rather than giving in to abstract promises and doubt. There is a connection between the two (in that the former is followed by the latter), but I still think it's an important difference as to whether the Ruinous Powers only needed the latter to pull you to their side, or if they had to force you.

Basically, if there was a seed of doubt already present that just needed nurturing, or if this seed had to be forcibly implanted first.

 Lynata wrote:
Sabathiel certainly resisted, at first, and probably held out much longer than an ordinary human might have. They just didn't let her die, and she didn't go completely insane, so here we are.

 Lynata wrote:
Resistance to psychic influence, yes, but complete immunity? Especially when coupled with physical torment that kind of messes with one's ability to concentrate and pray or even think clearly?
And I don't really think Miriael was "offered" anything - not at first, anyways.

Hmm, fine. I suppose that is feasible enough. Though I'm still going to disregard her, myself.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, that's not how the text describes it - the Sisters that were afflicted by the Bloodtide were ripped apart by the daemonic hordes shortly after giving in.

Not exactly. I'm reading it now, and it says that it was those who endured who got killed by the Daemons. The corrupted Sisters are pretty much only mentioned in the sentence in which they are corrupted. They just vanish from all mention after that, leaving us to assume that the Knights or their fellow Sisters killed them.

 Lynata wrote:
but I still think it's an important difference as to whether the Ruinous Powers only needed the latter to pull you to their side, or if they had to force you.

So we basically agree, then? Because that's really all I'm saying, there being a distinction between outright mindjacking and a more willing, knowing acceptance of corruption.

Troike wrote:Not exactly. I'm reading it now, and it says that it was those who endured who got killed by the Daemons. The corrupted Sisters are pretty much only mentioned in the sentence in which they are corrupted. They just vanish from all mention after that, leaving us to assume that the Knights or their fellow Sisters killed them.

Hmm, I suppose it could be read in both ways:

"Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls."

I guess I just took "most" to include not only "those who endure" but any Battle Sister.

Either way, the text does not have them "turn", so crisis avoided.

Troike wrote:So we basically agree, then? Because that's really all I'm saying, there being a distinction between outright mindjacking and a more willing, knowing acceptance of corruption.

Oh, if you phrase it like that, then yes!
My position is merely that there never was a Battle Sister who willingly and knowingly accepted corruption - not even Miriael. I just take their sheltered and extremely interdependent lifestyle to be too much of a safeguard against it. Basically, their "trigger" is set so low, that the Sisters even confess sins that aren't "true" sins (in that they'd lead to corruption), allowing the Order to take appropriate measures ... either by cleansing her from her shame and doubt, or by moving her into the Repentia. Either way, the extreme sense of loyalty and dedication for their superiors serves as a nice safeguard.
Simultaneously, I could think that those Sisters who are operating largely alone, such as the Sisters Sabine who are even forced to "go native" in the pursuit of their infiltration duties, are somewhat more at risk from "contamination" - but then again, this probably extends more towards the general lifestyle, rather than actually falling to Chaos.

 Troike wrote:

 felixander wrote:
In sincerity, I expect your codex to be almost exactly the same, with a ton of fluff, Saint Celestine normalized, and one other unit to become the "Must take" of your codex.

At best.

It's already out, and you're wrong. They've actually changed quite a bit. Overall, thing've improved. We got some more viable builds, and most units became more effective, with a few remaining about the same. The new AoF system especially got an overhaul. It isn't bad, being fully scaling and more reliable. Sure, Act are now only one-use, but there's a lot of tricks you can pull to improve that. Simulacrum gives you a second use of an Act, and Laud Hailers let you re-roll your leadership rolls for successful Acts. Celestine did get toned down a bit and is no longer completely unkillable, but she did get some nice buffs besides that.

I'm not sure why you'd bother spending points to buff most units' acts of Faith though. They're mostly awful.

Canoness - Hatred, but you don't want to be in CC anyway. If you're building a CC unit, add a priest and you get Hatred constantly instead of one game turn.
SCS - Movement abilities that can only be used in the assault phase, AFTER you've made charge moves. Their ability is nigh-pointless.
Celestians - Furious Charge in a non CC unit. Woopee.
Repentia - Gives 3+ FnP which is amazing! BUT it can only be used in an assault phase, WHEN you attack (so it doesn't work against overwatch).
BSS - Preferred Enemy. Good, no argument here.
Dominion - Ignore Cover. Flamers have it, Meltas are generally used on vehicles which rarely have cover, and no one uses storm bolters. Another nigh-pointless ability.
Seraphim - Shred. Same as before, still useful.
Retributors - Rending. Too bad it's unreliable for HBs since you use it before you shoot (and thus may not rend at all). Fine when you could use it each turn, not so fine when it's a crapshoot.

So for 8 units with Acts of Faith, 2 are useful. BSS and Seraphim. We'll say 2.5 with a suicide easy-bake oven. But I'm not sure why you would take one when you could have an Exorcist in that slot.

Acts of Faith were pretty bad in the WDex. They somehow managed to become worse. They may be easier to use, but they're actually less "reliable" in the sense you can't activate them as often as you could. For a unit like Retributors, that basically breaks the unit.

I would argue that, in the end, Miriael *does* willingly turn to Chaos. Yes, she was being tortured in unimaginable ways by the Emperor's Children... and we know what they did the last time they were on Terra... but, well, death is always an option. Especially in the Imperium.

Her turn may have been heavily coerced, but, in the end, there was some small part of her that preferred life under Chaos rather than death with purity.

That's exactly where I just cannot agree! Certainly I would expect that every single Sister is trained to perform "self-martyrdom" in order to not let herself be captured by the enemies of the Imperium (and I love how, in Faith & Fire, James Swallow introduced the idea of the Chaplet Ecclesiasticus holding a hidden blade for this specific purpose), but as we know this just doesn't always work, and even the Founding Saints of the Sisterhood had members who were captured alive.
And once in the hands of the enemy ... well, maybe they just would not let her die? Perhaps she would not have yielded if it had been some random cultists torturing her to death over the course of hours - but the Emperor's Children, and possibly even a Daemon Prince? I'm sure they have ways to extend a captive's suffering, if only to have more "fun" with her. I think she just went mad at some point. I mean, just look at how she talks and acts ...

And if you're argueing that way, then everyone falls willingly, because even with mind control there must have been "some small part" of the victim that gave in, for as we know a strong mind can lessen and even reject psychic powers.

I've got one for the wishlist now. Give us the missing Armor of Faith: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-speculations.html

Man, GW really can be trolls.

Okay, speculation time. Was this cut out because they thought "nah, too OP"? Or did they forget to put this in because it was a last minute thing?

Eh, what's her face, M'Shen, she survived in the hands of the Night Lords for, what, three days? Four? And she was just an Assassin... they had also removed all four of her limbs and all of her suicide-teeth and other tricks, and she *still* held out.

Even then, she only gave them a partial answer, which granted her a quick death, so she still ended up trollololing them, in the end, to a degree.

Armour of Faith... same stats as Armour of St. Katherine? Probably just a proofing error.

Various things

Dominons AOF - well given things like unit so Warlockas adn farseer on bikes, Ageis Defence lines, Wave Serpents and other stuff - totally ignoring cover is an important ability - especially with melta guns...........

The Assasin - yes she survived four days of constant torture which started with the removal of her limbs etc and all the various skills of the Night Lords - but I don;t get the "only an Assassin" - they are some of the most formidable individuals in the Imperium and have formidable powers of resistance.

Armour of Faith -lets hope for its inclusion - big upgrade for the cannoness

Miriael - Is it confirmed thats its still her and not something wearing her body like Fulgrim was for some time? I do agree that by choosing to live - she has become corrupted and hence disrupts the "none who have ever fallen" for isntance those few Sisters who were mind controlled by a Chaos Warmaster in the Cains Last Stand novel immediately kill themselves when they regain control of their minds and body, but they never willingly accept the corruption and choose life as a follower of Chaos.

IGnores Cover with four to five meltaguns is insanely powerful. Remember, meltaguns are also our primary TEq killing weapon as well as our main anti-tank.

Assassins have never been stated to be 'incorruptible', is the point - Sisters have.

 streamdragon wrote:

Canoness - Hatred, but you don't want to be in CC anyway. If you're building a CC unit, add a priest and you get Hatred constantly instead of one game turn.
SCS - Movement abilities that can only be used in the assault phase, AFTER you've made charge moves. Their ability is nigh-pointless.

Hatred could be nice, if you HAD to get into CC rather than building a CC unit where you'd want a priest. I'd agree about the command squads AOF, with the new squad build, Relentless would have been nice to keep.

 streamdragon wrote:

Celestians - Furious Charge in a non CC unit. Woopee.
Repentia - Gives 3+ FnP which is amazing! BUT it can only be used in an assault phase, WHEN you attack (so it doesn't work against overwatch).

Furious Charge might have been worthwhile in a CC equipped SCS, but Celestians got left out in the cold again. So many missed opportunities to actually do something with them, As far as Repentia, they're never going to make it into CC anyways having lost their regular FnP. Again, some lost opportunities.

 streamdragon wrote:

BSS - Preferred Enemy. Good, no argument here.
Dominion - Ignore Cover. Flamers have it, Meltas are generally used on vehicles which rarely have cover, and no one uses storm bolters. Another nigh-pointless ability.

BSS is good, Dominions is better. Scouting Dominions who can ignore the cover on all those skimmers, bikes, FMC's, jetbikes, and the like. Sorry, I think melta dominions are one of the best things in the Dex. Would the AoF carry over to a model manning an AA gun to avoid jink saves?

 streamdragon wrote:

Seraphim - Shred. Same as before, still useful.
Retributors - Rending. Too bad it's unreliable for HBs since you use it before you shoot (and thus may not rend at all). Fine when you could use it each turn, not so fine when it's a crapshoot.

It still isn't horrible for HB's, they don't always NEED to have rending. And its great for HF or MM Rets, I hate it when MM Rets rolls 1's to wound, which seems like all the time.... (when I ran them way way way back of course)

 streamdragon wrote:

So for 8 units with Acts of Faith, 2 are useful. BSS and Seraphim. We'll say 2.5 with a suicide easy-bake oven. But I'm not sure why you would take one when you could have an Exorcist in that slot.

Acts of Faith were pretty bad in the WDex. They somehow managed to become worse. They may be easier to use, but they're actually less "reliable" in the sense you can't activate them as often as you could. For a unit like Retributors, that basically breaks the unit.

Although I disagree about the Dominions, at least a lot of the bad ones are on units I don't see anyone fielding much anyways. I fully intend to use my Repentia as Arco-flagellants. Sisters Dialogus as Priests, who are much better buffs for any units you might have stumble into CC anyways. Will probably just end up loading up on Immo's or Repressors with the obligatory Exorcists. Get close and burn stuff, hope to either mob over or outlast any CC threats that remain. While the rest gets burnt down. Would like to dust off my four HF rets again, been over a decade since I fielded them.

Would have like to see Repentia and PE's keep FnP base, and pick up shrouded as an AoF. Would have been nice to give Celestians blessed ammo and Preferred Enemy everyone, all the time. Taking those two units out of the mix drops you to 6 AoF, 1 is awesome, 2 are useful, 1 is useful depending on how you use your Rets, and two are bad. Unless you favor building a CC Canoness to run in with a CC command squad, not sure that thought ever crossed my mind.

How does REnding help MM Retributors? Are you EVER going to run into an AV 20+ vehicle?

 streamdragon wrote:
SCS - Movement abilities that can only be used in the assault phase, AFTER you've made charge moves. Their ability is nigh-pointless.

This one is indeed odd, but I'm hoping it'll get FAQ'd.

 streamdragon wrote:
Dominion - Ignore Cover. Flamers have it, Meltas are generally used on vehicles which rarely have cover, and no one uses storm bolters. Another nigh-pointless ability.

Ah, but you're forgetting that a five woman squad can now take four special weapons. Before, five woman squads could only take two, but could make them twin-linked. Of course, four special weapons are better than two possibly twin-linked weapons, so this new AoF is essentially a straight upgrade. And, as Morden pointed out, it really is useful against certain targets.

 streamdragon wrote:
Retributors - Rending. Too bad it's unreliable for HBs since you use it before you shoot (and thus may not rend at all). Fine when you could use it each turn, not so fine when it's a crapshoot.

It's not so bad, Everybody already had a Simulacrum on that unit before anyway, so you get two rounds of rending HBs, at least. They'll also probably be near the Exorcists anyway, so they have easy access to some Laud Hailers to ensure that they pass their leadership tests for their AoF.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
How does REnding help MM Retributors? Are you EVER going to run into an AV 20+ vehicle?

My apologies, blurred the Dominions AoF in with the Rets AoF. The rend isn't as good as before sure, but it has more viability now with the HF ret squad.

But Rending doesn't help with rolling to wound unless you can't wound the target anyway, so...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Armour of Faith... same stats as Armour of St. Katherine? Probably just a proofing error.

Doubt it's a proofing error when it links to the Canoness page. It could just be a kind of Artificer Armor with a built in Rosarius which would have been fitting for the army.

The Canoness needs more love -- and wargear -- and special upgrade options similar to Chapter Tactics only for Major Orders & their offshoots. So of course I homebrewed some. Comments eagerly welcomed.