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The Canoness is a more viable HQ choice in the new digital Codex than in the White Dwarf one, but she's still rather overshadowed as a front-line leader by both Celestine (justifiably), Uriah Jacobus (hrmmm), and Priests (what the feth?). She's actually described in her fluff as leading her Sisters "from the fore whilst reciting the great hymns of the Ecclesiarchy," yet she doesn't get the War Hymns special rule!

Well, that one is an an easy fix, isn't it?

OPTION: The Canoness may take a Battle Hymnal: 20 points
A character with a Battle Hymnal gains the Hymns of War special rule.
Design notes:

Two other easy war gear options come to mind:

Edit: okay, actually four thanks to the posters below]

WARGEAR OPTIONS:

The Canoness may take a jump pack: 15 points

The Canoness may take artificer armor: 20 points
Design notes: Exactly the same as what Space Marine Chapter Masters and Captains.

The Canoness may take a Sororitas Bike [see my homebrew bike rules for a light, fast bike: 20 points
[Edit: originally priced at 15 but with my revisions to Sororitas bikes, it's worth more]

[EDIT: Everything in this post from this point on has been dramatically revised. See this post for the latest version]

The Canoness may take a Simulacrum Sashimonum: 20 points


Notice I'm doing these, roughly, in order from least controversial to most. Now comes the big one: upgrading the Canoness to let her gain new special rules, take special issue war gear, and modify the Force Organization chart -- e.g. a Jump Pack Canoness that lets you take Seraphim as troops, or a Biker Canoness who lets you take [http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/557469.page#6187165]my home-brew Sororitas Bikers (Thrones)[/url] as Troops.
The rules:

EDIT: A Canoness who is also your Warlord may take one and only one if the following options:
[Thanks to Rav1rn for pointing out the abusive potential of taking two Canonesses with these rukes]

Canoness Seraphic: 40 points
The Major Order Militant of the Argent Shroud and its daughter Orders Minor are renowned for fielding large formations of elite Seraphim jump troops.
The Canoness gains a jump pack and replaces The Passion with The Emperor's Deliverance as her Act of Faith. Her detachment may take Seraphim as Troops.
Costing:


Canoness Retributant: 40 points
The Order of the Sacred Rose and the Orders Minor that arose from it draw inspiration from their patron Saint Arabella and her calm, logic, and keen aim. As a result, they often deploy unusually large numbers of level-headed Retributors.
The Canoness and any unit she joins gain the Relentless special rule. She also may take weapons from the Heavy Weapons List and replaces The Passion with Divine Guidance as her Act of Faith. Finally, her detachment may take Retributors as troops.
Costing:


Canoness Dominant: 40 points
The Order of the Bloody Rose is notorious for ferocity, impetuousity, and an unusual reliance on Dominion squads, a trait shared by the Orders Minor which spring from it.
The Canoness gains the Scout and Acute Senses special rules and replaces The Passion with Holy Fusillade as her Act of Faith. Her detachment may take Dominions as troops.
Costing:


Canoness Enthroned: 40 points
Minor Orders whose duties include frequent long-range scouting missions often deploy large numbers of the fast, lightweight Sororitas Bikes, particularly Orders descended from the famously impetuous Bloody Rose.
The Canoness gains a Sororitas Bike and replaces The Passion with Divine Lightning as her Act of Faith. Her detachment may take Thrones as troops. [See this post for homebrew rules for Sororitas bikers].
Costing:


Canoness Cataphract: 45 points
Preceptories and Minor Orders frequently deployed to major war zones often accumulate unusually large numbers of armoured vehicles.
The Canoness and her unit gain the Tank Hunters special rule. Her detachment may take Exorcist and Sororitas Predator tanks as Elites choices.
Costing:


Edited to link to specific posts rather than thread pages -- thanks to Filbert.

Some good stuff here - especially the Arfitcer armour - I liek the Battle Hyms

In some ways once you go down the route of rules for individual Orders - might be best to do it as "Combat Tactics"

Some other possibilites:

Null Rod:


Praesidium Protectiva:

Ah, I remember those two. But didn't the Praesidum deny you a bonus from a second combat weapon?

Probably more ant-psyker things to reclaim from the GK Codex than the null rod, too.

I just want to point out your title is bad. Priests have 1 wound and have a 50% of dying from every single wound they take. Canoness has PA AND can get a Rosarius and has 3 wounds. The already makes her more survivable without even buying the Eternal Warrior Relic.

Isn't this post against Dakka Rules?

Points Costs... Item Descriptions? All that Jazz...

 Bloodhorror wrote:
Isn't this post against Dakka Rules?

Points Costs... Item Descriptions? All that Jazz...

Uhmmm... Welcome in the Proposed Rules section of the forum I guess? If you are lucky, you can find whole codices here.


Anyway, I kinda' like these rules. The "Enthroned" Canoness sounds a little bit silly, and I'm not exactly sure about the Seraphic (I think the JP should be a normal wargear option for the Canoness) but whatever. Also, Null Rods are psychic wargear, so I don't know if your average Canoness could use it. But some melee weapon with psy-shock would be awesome!

 AtoMaki wrote:

. Also, Null Rods are psychic wargear, so I don't know if your average Canoness could use it. But some melee weapon with psy-shock would be awesome!

Null Rods are the opposite - they are available to Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors in the current GK codex and something similar is used in one of the Sisters novels IIRC.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I just want to point out your title is bad. Priests have 1 wound and have a 50% of dying from every single wound they take. Canoness has PA AND can get a Rosarius and has 3 wounds. The already makes her more survivable without even buying the Eternal Warrior Relic.

Yes, I'm arguably being a little too irritable and provocative there. But the priests are much better value for points -- and Jacobus is a Priest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides the title, though, any other critiques, Clockwork? I've always found yours helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Anyway, I kinda' like these rules. The "Enthroned" Canoness sounds a little bit silly, and I'm not exactly sure about the Seraphic (I think the JP should be a normal wargear option for the Canoness)....

Good point about the Jump Pack. Maybe should let her buy that separately or as a part of "I command a vast host of flying angels with frickin' flamethrowers, FEAR ME" upgrade to the FOC.

As for "Enthroned," is the silly just the name, or something deeper?

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I just want to point out your title is bad. Priests have 1 wound and have a 50% of dying from every single wound they take. Canoness has PA AND can get a Rosarius and has 3 wounds. The already makes her more survivable without even buying the Eternal Warrior Relic.

Yes, I'm arguably being a little too irritable and provocative there. But the priests are much better value for points -- and Jacobus is a Priest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides the title, though, any other critiques, Clockwork? I've always found yours helpful.

Jacobus is also a named character which puts him a step up over a generic character in terms of rules typically.

That aside, I'll look at it properly tomorrow.

I dont have enough exposure to SoB to talk about balance to the changes early on in the OP's post, but lets tackle all the various kinds of Cannoness.

Having all these different kinds of Canonesses is a rather clunky way to go about these ideas. A smoother implementation might be something like what they did with the recent Space Marine codex, and let a SoB force choose a certain order / patron saint and have those effects applied across the army, making that groups particular specialty become troops, and just let cannoness's have access to the specialty gear of their order. Trying to implement this by altering the HQ unit is a bit odd, and could be very dangerous, as it looks like if i take 2 Canonesses of different specialties, i can make just about any and all of the units i want into troops for about 100 points. Now, it would be very interesting to make it so that there really isnt a SoB "army" as such, but rather several small detachments of different orders that work together within a single detachment, but that would be difficult to balance properly, as you could have an entire army of scoring units that is still very powerful without the huge point taxes usually needed to do this (deathwing, ravenwing, draigowing, etc).

10 points for relentless on a Cannoness Retributant's unit is a ridiculous good deal, especially since they can be made scoring for next to nothing. This actually brings up the point that i think there need to be some serious point revisions for many of these abilities and traits, because they're quite powerful, but typically less than 20 points.

Good point on making these more like Chapter Traits -- but then how do you cost them? I'm trying to work with the current Codex, so I'm leery of just adding a whole Army Special Rule for free...

I think you've focussed too much on re-organising the FoC. On top of that, most of your Canoness buffs actually apply more to the rest of the army, and by changing her Act of Faith you make her less special and useful - by changing it to the same Act as the majority of troops in the army, you're basically downgrading her from "tacatically flexible" to "extra Simulacrum".

So, to separate things, I think it would be best to have the Order Styles be their own thing, and have different bonuses for the Canoness. Perhaps something like thus;

Canoness Specific (30 points)
The Canoness has been trained in the favoured tactics of her Order, and elects to continue specialising rather than broadening her skills as a leader. She may choose one of the following.
Canoness Seraphic: The Order of the Argent Shroud have an unusually high number of Seraphim and Celestians amongst them. The Canoness is equipped with a Jump Pack and exchanges her chainsword and bolt pistol for a pair of hand flamers.
Canoness Retributant: The Order of the Sacred Rose are famed for their cool pressure under fire. The Canoness may take weapons from the Heavy Weapon wargear list and grants the Relentless rule to herself and any squad she joins.
Canoness Dominius: The Order of the Bloody Rose are aggressive in the extreme. The Canoness may take weapons from the Special Weapon wargear list and grants the Infiltrator rule to herself any and squad she is deployed with.
Canoness Enthroned: I'll let you fluff this one. The Canoness is equipped with a Sororitas Bike and grants the Skilled Rider and Stealth special rules to herself and any bike squad she joins.
Canoness Cataphracti: Again, fluff for you. :p The Canoness and her Command Squad have the Tank Hunters rule. In addition, the army may include Sororitas Predators as Heavy Support choices.

Battle Lines of the Orders Militant
When constructing an Adepta Sororitas army list, you may select one of the following Battle Lines;
Order of the Ebon Chalice: The Ebon Chalice cleave most closely to the original Daughters of the Emperor, and it is common practice among them to train with that Order's traditional weapons. All Sororitas Command squads, Celestian squad and Battle Sister squads are equipped with an additional close combat weapon.
Order of the Valorous Heart: The Valorous Heart believe that they will never pay off the debt they owe the Imperium for the events of the Age of Apostasy. The usual restriction of Eviscerators to Canonesses and Priests only is waived, and Repentia squads may ignore the Unwieldy rule.
Order of the Argent Shroud: The Argent Shroud are renowned for their stoicism and their selfless heroism. All Sororitas Command Squads, Celestian squads, Battle Sister squads, Seraphim squads and Retributor squads in the army have the And They Shall Know No Fear rule. In addition, Celestian squads and Seraphim squads are Scoring.
Order of Our Martyred Lady: Our Martyred Lady are known for their ruthless persecution of the enemy. All Sororitas Command Squads, Celestian Squads, Battle Sister squads, Seraphim Squads, Dominion Squads and Retributor Squads in the army gain the Crusader special rule. In addition, they may make a Consolidate move immediately after wiping out an enemy unit, even in the shooting phase.
Order of the Bloody Rose: The Bloody Rose are known for their aggressive nature and vicious close-combat prowess. Celestian squads may take an additional two choices from the Special Weapons wargear list, gain the Scouts rule and exchange their Act of Faith for Holy Fullisade. Dominion squads and Celestian Squads also gain the Relentless USR and may assault on the turn they enter from Reserve.
Order of the Sacred Rose: The Sacred Rose are famed for their cool under fire and absolute patience. All Sororitas Command Squads, Celestian Squads, Battle sister squads, Dominion Squads, Seraphim Squads and Retributor Squads may fire Overwatch at their full Ballistic Skill and gain the Stubborn rule.

Why are our "Chapter Tactics" free? Because Space Marine chapter tactics are free, and we're on average only two points cheaper for significantly more fragile, less flexible warriors.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Good point about the Jump Pack. Maybe should let her buy that separately or as a part of "I command a vast host of flying angels with frickin' flamethrowers, FEAR ME" upgrade to the FOC.

She should definitely have the option to buy it separately.

 SisterSydney wrote:
As for "Enthroned," is the silly just the name, or something deeper?

Just the name. In the Imperium, "Throne" is the basic currency. So it is like a group of women with the name "Dollars" and their leader is called "Dollared" . Maybe you should re-name them to their Jewish counterparts: Ophanim (for the bikers) and Ophanion (for the Canoness).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think you've focussed too much on re-organising the FoC. On top of that, most of your Canoness buffs actually apply more to the rest of the army, and by changing her Act of Faith you make her less special and useful - by changing it to the same Act as the majority of troops in the army, you're basically downgrading her from "tacatically flexible" to "extra Simulacrum".

So, to separate things, I think it would be best to have the Order Styles be their own thing, and have different bonuses for the Canoness. Perhaps something like thus;

Canoness Specific (30 points)
The Canoness has been trained in the favoured tactics of her Order, and elects to continue specialising rather than broadening her skills as a leader. She may choose one of the following.
Canoness Seraphic: The Order of the Argent Shroud have an unusually high number of Seraphim and Celestians amongst them. The Canoness is equipped with a Jump Pack and exchanges her chainsword and bolt pistol for a pair of hand flamers.
Canoness Retributant: The Order of the Sacred Rose are famed for their cool pressure under fire. The Canoness may take weapons from the Heavy Weapon wargear list and grants the Relentless rule to herself and any squad she joins.
Canoness Dominius: The Order of the Bloody Rose are aggressive in the extreme. The Canoness may take weapons from the Special Weapon wargear list and grants the Infiltrator rule to herself any and squad she is deployed with.
Canoness Enthroned: I'll let you fluff this one. The Canoness is equipped with a Sororitas Bike and grants the Skilled Rider and Stealth special rules to herself and any bike squad she joins.
Canoness Cataphracti: Again, fluff for you. :p The Canoness and her Command Squad have the Tank Hunters rule. In addition, the army may include Sororitas Predators as Heavy Support choices.

Battle Lines of the Orders Militant
When constructing an Adepta Sororitas army list, you may select one of the following Battle Lines;
Order of the Ebon Chalice: The Ebon Chalice cleave most closely to the original Daughters of the Emperor, and it is common practice among them to train with that Order's traditional weapons. All Sororitas Command squads, Celestian squad and Battle Sister squads are equipped with an additional close combat weapon.
Order of the Valorous Heart: The Valorous Heart believe that they will never pay off the debt they owe the Imperium for the events of the Age of Apostasy. The usual restriction of Eviscerators to Canonesses and Priests only is waived, and Repentia squads may ignore the Unwieldy rule.
Order of the Argent Shroud: The Argent Shroud are renowned for their stoicism and their selfless heroism. All Sororitas Command Squads, Celestian squads, Battle Sister squads, Seraphim squads and Retributor squads in the army have the And They Shall Know No Fear rule. In addition, Celestian squads and Seraphim squads are Scoring.
Order of Our Martyred Lady: Our Martyred Lady are known for their ruthless persecution of the enemy. All Sororitas Command Squads, Celestian Squads, Battle Sister squads, Seraphim Squads, Dominion Squads and Retributor Squads in the army gain the Crusader special rule. In addition, they may make a Consolidate move immediately after wiping out an enemy unit, even in the shooting phase.
Order of the Bloody Rose: The Bloody Rose are known for their aggressive nature and vicious close-combat prowess. Celestian squads may take an additional two choices from the Special Weapons wargear list, gain the Scouts rule and exchange their Act of Faith for Holy Fullisade. Dominion squads and Celestian Squads also gain the Relentless USR and may assault on the turn they enter from Reserve.
Order of the Sacred Rose: The Sacred Rose are famed for their cool under fire and absolute patience. All Sororitas Command Squads, Celestian Squads, Battle sister squads, Dominion Squads, Seraphim Squads and Retributor Squads may fire Overwatch at their full Ballistic Skill and gain the Stubborn rule.

Why are our "Chapter Tactics" free? Because Space Marine chapter tactics are free, and we're on average only two points cheaper for significantly more fragile, less flexible warriors.

I really like your Battle Lines rules (even though I don't play sisters). I take it 2 orders could ally and use 2 options like the marines can with chapter tactics?

Thanks to all.

First, I edited the original post:
1) Rav1rn, you're absolutely right about the potential to abuse the doctrines-style rules by taking two Canonesses. I've added the restriction that only a Canoness who is also your Warlord may take them.
2) Atomaki, I've added the option to buy a jump pack -- or a bike -- without having to pay for a horde of scoring Seraphim as well.
3) Bloodhorror, you made me realize there actually was one case where I gave away official rules, namely what save Artificer Armour gives you; I've deleted that detail.

Less straightforward things:

1) AutoMaki, I knew "Throne" was an exclamation in the 40K 'verse but not that it was currency (is that just in the RPGs or does it show up in GW's own stuff?). I'm reluctant to change the name to something Hebraic, however, because all the other Sororitas units have names that, while religiously inspired, are also words in plain English. Most players don't know "thrones" are currency and almost none know what Ophanim are. I do (only from this board) but I still keep seeing "Ophanim" and reading "Orphanim"....

2) Furyou, you offered a lot of great ideas that I plan on plagiarizing shamelessly when I revise these. Many thanks.

What I'm not at all sure about is giving Sisters the equivalent of Marine Chapter tactics for free. Yes, Marines get them for free, so it would be fair, but "fair" may not cut it when trying to persuade any opponent to let you use these rules. If we're going to add something to the official codex and get anyone but close friends and lovers of homebrew to play against us , I think we're going to have to pay some points. "Pay to play."

 SisterSydney wrote:

I knew "Throne" was an exclamation in the 40K 'verse but not that it was currency (is that just in the RPGs or does it show up in GW's own stuff?). "

Yup. It is canon. IIRC it shows up in the Inquisitor game and several Black Library novels.

To be honest, just the jump pack and the artificer armor would already be good options enough for our beloved canoness. I was always fond of her, even with the "minidex" from the White Dwarf.

Not sure about the hymn...would rather suggest to throw away all those priests from a codex named Adepta Sororitas . Uriah being the first (I really hate that guy). The bike sounds cool, even if it doesn't suit my personal point of view about the sisters way of fighting.

About the "doctrines"...it's a bit too much, I think. I'm talking about the "taking this type of unit as troops" part in particular. It changes quite a lot of things for a really cheap price. I mean, the Dominions are already too good enough like this, no need to allow a sister player to fill in six troop choices who can ouflank while always being operational...

The canoness with a heavy weapon and Relentless is quite cheesy as well. Multi-melta command squad team with one CT5, anyone?

No, I believe we should stay with the "basic gear options". Would also love to have the Celestian fill an actual role in the Sororitas army, rather than just being "more expensive troop sisters that are completely useless in assault".

One thing I like to point out: there might be a reason why Canoness doesn't have access to artificer armour. This army can get easily re-roll for saves. This is insanely good with 2+ save.

In any case, she should have access to more gear, and limit for one relic per character should be lifted, allowing some combos (this could be unique to Canoness, priests can still be limited to a single relic.)

As for giving her hymns, that would certainly fix a lot of things, however I'd still prefer her to have something unique to her instead. Act of Faith that isn't useless would be a good start. Perhaps instead of Hymns she could have several AoFs (maybe three), that she could use once each. Possibly something that could buff several units at once, making her the centre of your battle line.

 Sarouan wrote:
Not sure about the hymn...would rather suggest to throw away all those priests from a codex named Adepta Sororitas . Uriah being the first (I really hate that guy).

As much as you hate him, he's not a new character, he's been around since 2nd and is a valid part of the army, as are priests. Don't hate on the Ecclesiarchy just because you don't like crazy old men with shotguns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My notes:
Hymnal: I can dig it. Plus it give people to model a Canoness with a book.

Artificer Armor: I'd rather see us get it back some other way. We've never had Artificer fluff wise for the Canoness. Mechanically I know it doesn't change but it's just one of those things I feel we don't need to be calling it Artificer Armor. Out normal armor is at least as ornate as the stuff the Marines call "Artificer" anyways.

The Bike: I still don't like it.

The Canoness Simulcrum: No. Not only is that name just a massive word salad mess it just doesn't fit the Canoness. Also, why does she have to but into Special Character territory and start ripping them off? Special Characters are supposed to be special, this means they do things that normal characters can't do. Even if you water down the ability you're just ripping it off and it makes the special characters feel less special.

I don't agree with Seraphim being made Troops. We're not Blood Angels. If you want Elites as troops to represent things like when Sisters purge Marine Chapters than make Celestians troops instead.

A Relentless HQ is fine. IG have one, even Marines can make one. But a Relenteless HQ who also makes other units relentless? Nu-uh. I don't like it. Also the Org Chart isn't a deck of cards, you don't need to keep shuffling it!

Yes, take our scouts who by fluff don't hold objectives and instead clear them and make them Scoring. That's totally fluffy. No seriously stop, just stop.

Yup, still don't like your bike rules.

Again with the FOC swapping. We don't need to be able to spam Exorcists in 6 slots. Keep them heavy only. I disagree with spamming tanks period. Leave the Treadheading to the IG.

Also I don't like your constant hot-swapping faith powers. Why not just pick one or write one that is more useful to the army as a whole instead just mixing and matching?

Firstly I like some of the rules but there's alot of overpowering going on in them, the canoness isn't a particularly bad choice to start with.

A couple of issues I see:

Far to much FOC swapping, perhaps a named canoness that allows Celestians as troops.

I like jump packs, god knows why they disappeared in the first place.

Artificer would be fine if there wasn't the cloak to re-roll all failed saves, 2+ re-rollables aren't any fun and shouldn't be readily available by just taking a piece of wargear.

Leave the Hymns with the priests, it's what makes them good. Giving it to a LD 10 model for less points than they costs just makes one of the best units in the codex useless which seems counter productive.

Thing is, the reroll item used to be a straight-up 2+ save, just like Artificer Armour (only more expensive)... but that was back when it could be made Invulnerable.

Okay, I am thoroughly convinced that the FOC follies must end: I won't try to make all sorts of things troops anymore (scoring Arco-Flagellants for the win!) or to spam tanks. I'll focus on upgrades for the Canoness here and her command squad as in Furyou's ideas.

Also, Clockwork & Crimson, you have made me inclined to nix the backbanner Simulacrum. Giving the Canoness the option to buy alternative Acts of Faith to boost other units is far more thematically and tactically interesting.

In fact, I'm now thinking of writing up a "Book of Acts" that any unit could buy to let it choose an alternative AOF -- but definitely the Canoness (and maybe the Palatine if we can resurrect her) should have something special.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Okay, I am thoroughly convinced that the FOC follies must end: I won't try to make all sorts of things troops anymore (scoring Arco-Flagellants for the win!) or to spam tanks. I'll focus on upgrades for the Canoness here and her command squad as in Furyou's ideas.

It was nothing personal, it's just that the hot swapping everything from every slot to another slot was too much. Now making some things scoring without moving them (say, a Jump Pack Canoness makes Seraphim scoring) wouldn't be so bad, assuming you don't do it to everything that is.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Also, Clockwork & Crimson, you have made me inclined to nix the backbanner Simulacrum. Giving the Canoness the option to buy alternative Acts of Faith to boost other units is far more thematically and tactically interesting.

I'd say give her 2-3 different ones and let her use 1 would solve things nicely, or give her one that has different effects depending on the phase (say, say Move through Cover in the Movement Phase, PE in the Shooting Phase and Hatred in the Assault Phase) would bring enough flexibility in terms of builds without getting silly.

No one needs to worry I take criticism personally. I'm a reporter by profession, my professional work is online and gets occasional comments from screaming sociopathic morons....you all have been extremely constructive.

My own notes:

I know the Jump-Pack Canoness was popular back then, but this doesn't make her feel any more fluffy. A Canoness is her Order's military leader, and she should lead from the front to inspire confidence, conviction and zeal in the troops around her. This is hard to do from ~50 meters in the air doing a Seraphim's job.
I'd rather have the Palatine back, and give the Jump-Pack to her, if there really needs to be an IC with it. Or, better yet, make a Sororitas SC with a Jump-Pack, a veteran Seraphim hero of her Order, like the old rules for Ephrael Stern!

Artificer Armor, approved.
In fact, perhaps throw in the aforementioned Praesidium Protectiva, so that we get the full triplet of relic armor, relic shield, and relic weapon.

Speaking of which, I'd love to see the old customisable Blessed Weapon return, even if it's just a "power weapon +1" like one of the dice results from the Battle Missions. Could be something to give to the VSS, like a sort of "lesser relic".

Still don't like Bikes, sorry. Venator scout cars ftw!

The Simulacrum Sashimonum sounds too Japanese, and whilst I love throwing such things in whenever I play my Kuritan in Battletech, it just feels odd for the Imperium in 40k. Now, I know that you've discarded the idea already, but otherwise I would have recommended something like "Signum Simulacris" as an alternative name, for otherwise the idea is kinda cool.

Also, I love Fuyrou's Battle Lines idea, though I have to agree with some of the other posters that their exact effects should be tweaked.

AtoMaki wrote:

SisterSydney wrote:I knew "Throne" was an exclamation in the 40K 'verse but not that it was currency (is that just in the RPGs or does it show up in GW's own stuff?). "

Yup. It is canon. IIRC it shows up in the Inquisitor game and several Black Library novels.

Whilst Inquisitor is a GW game, this currency does not show up there but only in Black Industry's Dark Heresy and its FFG sister games - and much like Black Library novels, they are not core studio fluff. The Imperium has no "universal" currency, which is why tithes to Imperial Adepta are paid in men and materiel rather than some currency that would only have local use.

The primary meaning of "throne" is a special kind of seat, starting with the very reason that the God-Emperor of Mankind is enthroned in the Golden Throne, and - even if we actually incorporate Dark Heresy and its contradictory fluff into our perception of the setting - this counts for a lot more than some currency of a backwater sector whose name is derived from it.

Hell, in 3E we even had Inquisitor Karamazov and his Throne of Judgement as a model.

Of course they need tweaking, I threw them together in half an hour before work, lol. Now tell me how :p

Well, while I'm partial to my own version of the Canoness in my custom 'dex, I'm okay with Artificer armour & Jump Packs. I don't think War Hymns are what the Canoness should be doing though. I'd rather her have something unique.

I'll agree with the people above that crazy hotswapping F.O.C business, if for no other reason than its unnecessarily complicated. Just like the joke made in your other thread,

K.I.S.S.S.

Simple, of course, is a relative thing given WH40K, but as stated above, some F.O.C stuff like making Celestians troops is all fine and good. I'm actually even okay with a Jump Pack Canoness making 1 squad of Seraphim troops. Its not precisely a foreign concept in 40K. I can understand the objections, but GWS has been hard at work homogenizing these things anyway.

First things first, however. Let's identify what's wrong with the Canoness as is. My take on it is simple. Her Act of Faith is pointless, and she brings almost nothing to the table that can't be found better and cheaper in Priests. Aside from opening up the Command Squad, (who's function should really just be rolled into Celestians anyway) her main job appears to be absorbing damage with her face and dying before anything else, or holding a book. She could be pressed into service as a dueling character, but a huge lack of the things required to make that work come to mind.

So, I think we should decide, collectively, what it is we (or GWS) want the Canoness to be doing on the battlefield. Since Priests hand out fearless and close combat benefits like candy, and can grab a Plasma Gun, they've just completely overshadowed her by doing everything, often at the same time. I mean a Priest for dirt cheap can have incredible shooting, devastating close combat, and buff their squad considerably. The only thing he can't do is take a beating, but he has the Sisters to do that for him. Let's not discuss the implications of this, though preachers using faithful as shields is certainly quite grimdark.

GWS seems intent on making her the hardest girl in the book, only second to Trollestine in sheer board staying power. Making her harder with 2+ armor and 4+ invuln is fine by me, especially since the 2+ is devalued by T3. (Against most standard shooting, each point of toughness is roughly equivalent to a point of armor save, so against bolter fire, my crappy math says a T3 2+ is almost as likely to take unsaved wounds as a T4 3+. 16.6~% more wounds, but 16.6~% more saves). If this is the case, her Acts should serve to allow her to absorb more abuse. Alternatively, if we float the notion that she is our killy combat choice, than her Act should specifically allow her to beat major face. Given the nature of AoFs as one shots, I can see her getting an alpha strike for melee, allowing her one glorious round of face bashing for the Emperor. Though I'd rather not recycle the Smash special rule, perhaps something else from the WH codex, like a significant boost to her stat line. That way, she can throw down with Space Marine Captains and their generic ilk without overshadowing any of the other Special Characters or looking really broken all the time.

Still, if we're allergic to the idea of 2+ on her, then allowing her to reroll her invulnerable save is much better. Most things that are going IC hunting are going to be carrying around AP 2, so a rerollable 6++ (or 4++ with Rosarius) is a step in the right direction. Then, even if her statline isn't great, she can attach an Eviscerator and Eternal Warrior, stride up to a MC, and slice up some roast beast. (The other Sisters bring the roasting part.) This may put her too close to being a fancy Seraphim, however, so I'm still leaning back to a faith beating.

Another idea, which just occured to me, is that I don't see any debuffing. Why can't the Canoness be spouting litanies of condemnation, casting down her vainglorious foes before smiting them in the Emperor's name? Her Act could rob them of initiative, or reduce their killing power. She could do something nasty that combines the two concepts of tank and debuff by having an AoF that reduces the number of attacks any model has when in base contact with her or her squad for one round of combat. This way, she indirectly improves her squad's survival by making Orks fight like Guardsmen with Creed screaming at them. There's a lot of play with her Act of Faith since it really looks like the only one in the codex that needs to be changed. I mean, I wanted her to have the Celestian's Act so she could join a unit and work with a Priest to have a Command Squad which can chew enemies up, but people seem okay with Celestians having Furious Charge.

What about indirect attacks instead of making her just more deadly via beatsticking? If she's going to get herself killed, make the enemy pay for it by having all wounds allocated to her be answered by Strength 3 AP 2 hits at Initiative 1? That way, she can truly martyr herself against that vicious close combat monster only to take them with her. Space Wolves have their Loki, Tau have their Suicide Suits, how about the Canoness get something similar? As a bonus, she would literally ensure no one would ever want to fight against her in melee without AP3. What's that? Your 10 Tactical Marines smack me in melee? My priest says I've got a rerollable 3+. You, however, now have 4 Str 3 AP 2 hits on your unit. Have fun with that.

The possibilities, they are endless. However, I think her fix needs to happen in her currently woefully inadequate Act. All about what she needs to be doing in the army.

Edit: If we're keeping the space nun vibe, then her Act of Faith could totally be an Admonishment, the old ruler to the knuckles. Not sure how crazy to make this, possibly reduce the enemy's WS, Initiative, and Attack characteristics by half. Or maybe just reduce their WS & Initiative by a set amount. Sort of a Mephiston-lite.

In the category "let's give the canoness more small options", you can always give her the possibility to take mastercraft weapons (like +10 or +15 points for each weapon she takes, relics not concerned) and/or give cherubs as options (working a bit like familars in "Codex: Chaos Space Marines", with other rules of course).

ClockworkZion wrote:
As much as you hate him, he's not a new character, he's been around since 2nd and is a valid part of the army, as are priests. Don't hate on the Ecclesiarchy just because you don't like crazy old men with shotguns.

I know that. I play the sisters since the very first beginning, when their army was just an allied detachment for the Imperium. It's not the fluff I hate in this guy, it's the rules that are too good for him since the minidex in the White Dwarf. That guy is simply too damn interesting to take to the point it's almost an automatic choice, and there is really no glory in that.

Beside, I would have nothing to say if the codex was called "Codex: Ecclesiarchy" (and then it would have been a good time to put the Frateris Milita back in the list!). It's the same with "Codex: Grey Knights" while them having all the Inquisitors inside; it's just GW doing it wrong about the name.

Artificer Armor: I'd rather see us get it back some other way. We've never had Artificer fluff wise for the Canoness. Mechanically I know it doesn't change but it's just one of those things I feel we don't need to be calling it Artificer Armor. Out normal armor is at least as ornate as the stuff the Marines call "Artificer" anyways.

What about "Anointed Armor"? Or even "Blessed Armor". Would be "holy" enough for the sisters.

Crimson wrote:One thing I like to point out: there might be a reason why Canoness doesn't have access to artificer armour. This army can get easily re-roll for saves. This is insanely good with 2+ save.

Not really. The hymns only work in the assault phase and there are plenty of weapons having AP2 anyway. The canoness stays a human as well; she doesn't have the strength or resilience of a Space Marine, by the way. It would still be good, yes, but it won't work all the time against all units.

Sarouan:
Master crafted weapons that are not Relics are a very good idea.
Cherubim are intriguing, but what would they do in game terms? Boost AOF somehow? Provide an extra wound? Flap around in the enemy's face and Blind them for a turn until swatted out of the air? Cause Fear and/or -1 to enemy Ld because they are SO FETHING CREEPY OH LORD ITS HOLLOW EYES GET IT AWAY GET IT AWAY MAKE IT GO AWAAAAAAY?

NydusTemplar:
Good idea about debuffs. I once thought (but then forgot) about a "Sword of Light" with master-crafted a one-shot Blind attack -- it'd be a relic by the standards of this 'dex -- but there are lots of other potential options, eg hymns or an alternative Act of Faith that give your side +1 Ld and the enemy -1. Maybe even a Relic, maybe "Armour of Vengeance," that hurts anyone who hurts you; I don't have those other codexes you mentioned so I didn't realize that was a thing in 40K.
Also, could you post your Canoness rules for everyone in this thread to read? Downloading your full fandex is a bit tricky and I don't have it on this machine myself.

I'm going to rewrite my Canoness "doctrines" drawing heavily on Furyou's ideas and eschewing FOC-swapping, but that might take a bit of time...

 SisterSydney wrote:

Good idea about debuffs. I once thought (but then forgot) about a "Sword of Light" with master-crafted a one-shot Blind attack -- it'd be a relic by the standards of this 'dex -- but there are lots of other potential options, eg hymns or an alternative Act of Faith that give your side +1 Ld and the enemy -1. Maybe even a Relic, maybe "Armour of Vengeance," that hurts anyone who hurts you; I don't have those other codexes you mentioned so I didn't realize that was a thing in 40K.
Also, could you post your Canoness rules for everyone in this thread to read? Downloading your full fandex is a bit tricky and I don't have it on this machine myself.

Like I said, I didn't have the issue you did d/ling it to my computer, and I did put an e-mail address I check which I can just send the .rtf (though I can understand people not wanting to give out e-mails). However, the only real problem with me putting my Canoness' rules here is that she's meant to be part of a larger whole. Just putting her info up doesn't really make sense unless you understand where she fits into the SoB/AS machine.

To explain it essentially, she's much like the Canoness in the WD codex, except 15 points cheaper (so with a Rosarius she's points scaled with a SM captain, being discounted due to lower WS, S, and T. She has the options opened up for Eviscerators, Power Weapons, typical character ranged weapons for the codex, and makes a unit tougher and better at passing Acts of Faith. Since I used a centralized list of Acts of Faith, she doesn't have any specific Acts, but can get a hold of armor that grants 2+ & FNP, a Jump Pack, and gives 1 additional Faith point for the turn pool just by being on the board. She also makes 1 unit of Celestians troops since I rolled the Command Squad's function into the Celestians.

As for the codex, its the 3rd (?) edition Witch Hunters codex, and I was referring to the fact that 1 act (usable on any squad) gives you better Initiative while another (usable on any squad) reduces your initiative but gives you better strength. However, since the Canoness' AoF is one shot and precludes the unit from using their own, it seems fair to me that it buff her S/T/I for one round making her roughly (and briefly) equivalent to a SM Captain for 1 or 2 (or 3 with Uriah) rounds of combat. Seeing as how there's two rounds of close combat per game turn, its not that big a deal.