Exorcists don't have the "turret" rule. Because of this I've always played them as "hull-mounted" weapons.

I think what he wants is something that is more a front line tank.

The problem is any such tank would fall in the awkward position of being something everyone questions... Why don't marines have it?-or Why don't IG have it? SoB will always struggle to have their own distinct vehicle without some real thought on the part of game designers. The narrow gap in that valley the game designers have to hit is a vehicle either too specialized for SM use and too advanced for IG. The penitent engine is effectively a close combat sentinel but it stands up to scrutiny because SM have something they prefer and requires tech generally unavailable to IG.

In the case of a SoB predator tank or something like it... The nature of their purpose would predominately put them up against heretical threats, Chaos Cultists... To me I would imagine that might emphasize volume of fire a bit more.... Where a predator has twin-linked lascannon and two sponsons what if the SoB had something of a monument atop a Rhino chassis with 4 single lascannon turrets... Or multimeltas or whatever.

Alternatively you could have a tank that goes the other way, trading the volume of weapons for a single more devestating weapon though you then have something akin to the Exorcist

The fact that the Exorcist fires its rockets straight up into the air, which then rain down on the target area is what makes it "indirect fire support".

And, yes, I want something that is direct front-line support. Something maybe with a dozer blade that smashes through the barricade set up by heretics that then allows the Repentia to pour through the breach and take the fight directly to the enemy's grill. A tank that can fill a direct fire-support role by engaging enemy armor at range, or providing a target for enemy armor to focus on... while the Retributor squad uses cover to get into position with the multi-meltas to take it out. A tank that provides an AV 14 brick that the Battle Sisters rally around/advance in support of (and with the support of!), introducing the God-Emperor's armored fist to the teeth of the heretic.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Exorcists don't have the "turret" rule. Because of this I've always played them as "hull-mounted" weapons.

Check the FAQ. You can draw line of sight from anywhere on the organ pipes. That means any direction too since you can draw it from the back of the pipe. Effectively, it's a turret.

In anycase, the original Exorcist model is the forge world one that looks like an actual rocket launcher and is direct fire, so I'm afraid you'll have to admit that I might have a valid point, even if you disagree with it.

You're talking about the Sanctorum Exorcist, which is noted as being the model produced on Ophelia VII, and post-dates the Exorcist, produced on Mars, and the oldest vehicle in the SOB armory, save the Rhino.

... I also think the Sanctorum model was produced by FW long after the pewter Exorcist model had been on the shelves.

Even so, that twin set of missile tubes is (IRL) designed to fire rockets over cover (indirect) or, via targeting systems, in volleys against air targets, making it more a SAM tank than an infantry support tank (and why they don't reproduce that model for an anti-air role is beyond me...)

Though, I did find this little bit on the GW site interesting, in the talk of tanks and maintenance:

Games Workshop, Exorcist tank store page wrote:
The Exorcist is only vaguely understood by the Tech-priests who must service it. Each one is an individual work of art, its battlefield role of providing devastating long-range fire support being secondary to its significance as divine symbol of the power of the Emperor.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Exorcists don't have the "turret" rule. Because of this I've always played them as "hull-mounted" weapons.

Check the FAQ. You can draw line of sight from anywhere on the organ pipes. That means any direction too since you can draw it from the back of the pipe. Effectively, it's a turret.

In anycase, the original Exorcist model is the forge world one that looks like an actual rocket launcher and is direct fire, so I'm afraid you'll have to admit that I might have a valid point, even if you disagree with it.

Oh I know about the FAQ. I wrote in half the questions in there (there are a number that I wrote in that aren't there, like if Zealots were still a legal option for the army).

I play on the lowest level of cheese possible though, so while I can use any tube to fire from, I only do so forward as to not be jerk.

Then again my shooting with an Exorcist tends to be above the average so maybe that's why.

...well... that twin set of tubes is designed to rotate 90 degrees (not 360, the back-blast from the missiles launching would cook the occupants of the vehicle...

... but I digress.

I want a Repressor with a bigger main gun for a tank. Something with decent range, good front AV, the Repressor's dozer blade, laud hailers and incense-smoke launchers. The Repressor's cupola weapon is fine for infantry support, but I think the Sisters need an MBT with some actual oomph to it.

I also think a tank with a black and gold battle-cannon hung with banners and prayer-flags would look boss.

(Maybe my bias, I have never had an Exorcist work out well)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Syd, if you plugged your homebrew threads any more they'd power a pride float. :p

Exalted.

I am shameless and learned from the best: when the website I work for was owned by AOL, I got SEO training from the staff of the Huffington Post. You should see how I Tweet email, and cross-link my professional writing. Every article has links to at least three of my earlier ones...

Hey, that reminds me, I forgot to put a link to this latest one in my signature.... Hold on a moment...

Anyway, we have a Predator grade tank: The Exorcist.

Not a main battle tank, as others have said: too poorly armoured, even if the pipes count as a turret rather a fixed forward-didn't weapon (I confess I hadn't seen that interpretation before). It's a tank destroyer, in modern terms. I want something that can wade into the enemy and lay about on all sides with massive short-ranged firepower, like a Predator Infernus.

If we're wishlisting tanks primarily

I agree with the Infernus Sisters Edition (now with MORE fiyah powah!) but I'd also like a nice anti-armor platform, while we currently have plenty of tank cracking potential with the sheer amount of melta we carry a long range direct attack AT platform (Las cannons!) would round everything out nicely.

The Conflagorator (as I think I saw the name suggested) and and the venerable but much loved Penitent Engine make with the stabby

The Exorcist and the theoretical lascannon platform handle the back field.

Immos, Repressors and Rhinos are mid field/troop delivery.

 Lynata wrote:


Which is why I'm argueing for a robed, carapace-armoured female engineer with basic tools, who would thus be different from a power-armoured male abhuman with giant claws strapped to their backs.

I find this idea superior to either a carbon-copy of the IG/SM Engineseer/Techmarine or leaving out such a unit entirely.

It also fits to how the Hospitaller behaves to the Apothecary.

I like this version, especially carapace rather than artificer or power armor. Possibly with a supporting unit that could include assisting novices and/or crusader-style bodyguards. It would emphasis that such as asset is rarely deployed to battlefield conditions, and important to protect when she is.

The main problem with Lynata's idea is that... well, every Battle Sister and every Techpriest have power armour - why does this random battle sister techie not have power armour?

It's the same issue I ran into when I designed my Knights of the Hammer - why do these Sisters forgo power armour? Especially since servo-arms and thunder hammers and power axes are all Unwieldy, so it's not like they can really take advantage of any potential ease-of-movement bonusses?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anyway, we have a Predator grade tank: The Exorcist.

The Predator is considered a light tank in-universe, heh. The Exorcist in comparison is probably closer to a tank hunter.

Also, if the only vehicles we get are Space Marine ripoffs, I'd get pissed off.

So Melissa -doesn't- want the drop pods back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of drop pods, which Citadel Journal(s) should I be looking for to find the old Sisters rules?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So Melissa -doesn't- want the drop pods back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of drop pods, which Citadel Journal(s) should I be looking for to find the old Sisters rules?

Citadel Journal 49. The Ordo Hereticus Strike Force. Celestians & Repentia in drop pods. There are also rules for some of the 2nd edition Sisters' special characters in there

Hmm... thing is, the setting is pretty established that the Imperium simply doesn't have a massive variety in models of vehicles. What is has is a whole lotta variants on a very small number of vehicle-patterns.

So for the Sisters to have a Predator or Leman Russ variant would not, to me, be them ripping something off the Space Marines or the IG, but them getting their own variant of these Imperial work-horses.

andrewm9 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So Melissa -doesn't- want the drop pods back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of drop pods, which Citadel Journal(s) should I be looking for to find the old Sisters rules?

Citadel Journal 49. The Ordo Hereticus Strike Force. Celestians & Repentia in drop pods. There are also rules for some of the 2nd edition Sisters' special characters in there

Thanks! I'm slowly working on adding to my collection.

I would advocate dropships over droppods myself. Like the dropships in Starship Troopers.

Both is better

I think I'd like a dropship in fluff and art, but not sure I'd want to have a model for one in actual gameplay. Pods are big enough, but at least they are more tall than wide, I think having a Pelican (the SST-inspired troop transport in Halo) on the board, if it were actually designed to fit 10 or 12 Sisters, would just be too much.

The model, I think, would be some 14" long and probably as wide in the wingspan (once you add in the engines, crew compartment, various bling, chin-mounted weapon, etc). Can't imagine toting more than one of these to a game.

I mean, we're talking something along the lines of this:

Drop pods shouldn't be available to regular humans. Leave that to the T4 freaks like Orks and Space Marines.

The SOB already have a drop-pod, the Dominica-Pattern.

no rules for it at present but yep

 Psienesis wrote:
The SOB already have a drop-pod, the Dominica-Pattern.

They had two actually. One they rode in, the other was filled with guns!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The SOB already have a drop-pod, the Dominica-Pattern.

They had two actually. One they rode in, the other was filled with guns!

I'm trying to dig up a digital copy now. Anyone finds one, let me know.

Sororitas Valkyrie for the win. Also of course I have to pimp a thread on Ecclesiarchy/Sororitas air & space capabilities. (Don't worry, this isn't me homebrewing, I ask a question and loremasters respond).

Here are the Drop Pods:

Yeah, those would need some modification. They are pretty craptastic right now.

edit: assuming drop pod assault though, the dominica gun pattern would be good if it came down in points. Drop next to something and hope you scatter within 12, first 3 Multi-Meltas. Turn 1 hilarity!

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, those would need some modification. They are pretty craptastic right now.

The ideas are sound though!

And FW has a basis for us to use with the Deathstorm Drop Pods. Just swap those Assault Cannons for Heavy Bolters or Multi-Meltas and we're set!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, give the missile launching version Exorcists missiles and we're REALLY set!

Also, being in heavy support, I would probably never use them.

We really need something good in elite.

 pretre wrote:
Also, being in heavy support, I would probably never use them.

We really need something good in elite.

Fast Attack has room for more options too.

Not with the excellent Dominion and Seraphim choices.

Elite is just such a gaping hole right now. It's our one bad slot.

I could imagine Seraphim getting a spin off elite version, like how SM got Vanguard as an improved Assault Squad.

I could see some of the Witch Hunter Inquisitor henchmen sans inquisitors, repurposed and rewritten. For example a unit of Crusaders.

 pretre wrote:
Elite is just such a gaping hole right now. It's our one bad slot.

For my own list, I added some Hospitaller units:

An Almoness (granting an FNP aura) escorted by a squad of Celestian Protectors (with Counter-Attack and defensive grenades instead of Witch Hunter and frag grenades)
The Saints of Kavaal (three Hospitallers granting a better FNP aura) escorted by Celestian Protectors
The Samaritan (a military ambulance) as a dedicated transport option.

Elites ...

The only thing that springs to mind that I would *want* to see there would be this exosuit idea that just came to mind whilst posting in the Centurion thread.

The Sisters are a very focused army with not nearly as much diversity as the Guard or adaptability as the Space Marines, so personally, I feel their hierarchy and organisation should intentionally be very small.
Those CC exosuits I'd deem suitable only because they are essentially equipment, and I'd fluff their pilots to be members of the Celestian corps.

Furyou Miko wrote:The main problem with Lynata's idea is that... well, every Battle Sister and every Techpriest have power armour - why does this random battle sister techie not have power armour?

Because the Hospitaller doesn't, either.

To me, it's primarily a stylistic choice to make them more different both from the other Sisters, as well as from their Space Marine counterparts - but one could surely whip up some excuses for practical reasons, such as them having to be more nimble and mobile to better deal with broken vehicles in the field, possibly having to crawl halfway inside some tank etc. Whereas a Techmarine has finer control over their armour (black carapace), plus a long mechadendrite that can reach where his bulky form doesn't.

Hmmh, I wonder if perhaps such a character should not be a Battle Sister herself, but be classed under the "Sisters from other Orders" group - perhaps hailing from the Orders Pronatus, or an entirely new / as of yet undescribed Order that focuses on servicing the technology of the Sisterhood, in the same manner that the Orders Militant apparently have Sisters Hospitallers as attached medical specialists rather than training their own medics.
I think part of me would prefer these technicians to hail from the ranks of the Battle Sisters, but a special Order to service the entire Sisterhood could then also aid all the other branches of the Adepta Sororitas, such as maintenance of the Hospitallers' medical equipment, or the databanks of the Orders Famulous, and so on.
The Adepta Sororitas has been described as a huge network of interlinked parts all helping each other out, after all...

I would like something simpler... Useful Celestians.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Also, being in heavy support, I would probably never use them.

We really need something good in elite.

Fast Attack has room for more options too.

I think the main addition needed for Fast Attack would be some sort of flyer. I'd also like to see a land speeder variant as well, but earlier in this thread people also discussed gunned cars of sorts that SoB are mentioned as having in fiction as another addition.

We're not going to get it, but a second troop type would be ace.

aka_mythos wrote:I could imagine Seraphim getting a spin off elite version, like how SM got Vanguard as an improved Assault Squad.

I could see some of the Witch Hunter Inquisitor henchmen sans inquisitors, repurposed and rewritten. For example a unit of Crusaders.

Seraphim already have a spin-off elite version: Celestians. :p

Now I guess they just need to split them into Sturmguard Celestians and Blitzguard Celestians...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Now I guess they just need to split them into Sturmguard Celestians and Blitzguard Celestians...

Totally okay with this.

 pretre wrote:
Not with the excellent Dominion and Seraphim choices.

Elite is just such a gaping hole right now. It's our one bad slot.

We have -2- choices there. Some alternatives and competition would be good.

Besides, a drop pod slamming down on the enemy and shooting them in the face screams angrily "Fast Attack".

I don't disagree that having extra choices is good. I just think that we should have at least 2 viable choices in each slot before adding more to already valid slots.

Slots that meet that currently:
HQ: (for people who don't care about SC) Celestine and Uriah/Kyrinov
Heavy: Exo and Rets
Fast: Doms and Seras

Slots that don't:
HQ: (For people that do care about SC) Canoness/CCS/etc is not good
Elite: Celestians and Reps are just not as good as other slots
Troops: One choice

 pretre wrote:
I don't disagree that having extra choices is good. I just think that we should have at least 2 viable choices in each slot before adding more to already valid slots.

Slots that meet that currently:
HQ: (for people who don't care about SC) Celestine and Uriah/Kyrinov
Heavy: Exo and Rets
Fast: Doms and Seras

Slots that don't:
HQ: (For people that do care about SC) Canoness/CCS/etc is not good
Elite: Celestians and Reps are just not as good as other slots
Troops: One choice

The Drop Pods don't really fit as "elites" though.

And I get what you're saying, but one thing at a time, alright?

My homebrew list has en elite unit I call 'The Fallen'. I got the idea from Dawnof War: Soulstorm. Basically spirits of dead Sisters come back to fight on in the name of the Emperor. Its kind of like how the Legion of the Damned form C:SM just arrive to fight on. I gave them an Angelic appearance. They were in essence Seraphim with an invuln save and more attacks. They were appropriately expensive as well.

"The Fallen" is also the name of the traitorous Dark Angels.

I think LOTD make a great ally for SOB.

I was thinking of allying Tigurius, some Cent Devs and a LOTD squad for funsies.

Well since we (SisterSyndey ) like to link homebrew here, I took a legitimate crack at my own: Adepta Sororita Drop Pod Updated Rules

pretre wrote:I would like something simpler... Useful Celestians.

I think we all agree on that!
Just give them storm shields and power weapons and call it a day.

Anyways, if you want variety ...

HQ
- Canoness (IC)
- Palatine (IC)
- Confessor (IC)
- Special Characters (IC)

Troops
- Battle Sister Squad
- Novice Aggregation Squad
- Frateris Militia Mob

Elites
- Celestian Squad
- Celestian Gladiatrix Squad
- Repentia Squad
- Hospitaller (IC)
- Armouress (IC)
- Priest (IC)

Fast Attack
- Dominion Squad
- Seraphim Squad

Heavy Support
- Retributor Squad
- Penitent Engine
- Exorcist MARS
- Lightning Attack Fighter
- Dominica Gun Pod*

Dedicated Transports
- Rhino APC
- Venator Scout Car
- Repressor IFV
- Immolator IFV
- Valkyrie Dropship
- Dominica Drop Pod*

*: unlocked by Canoness or Palatine, may only be fielded if the entire army deploys via deep-strike

("Gladiatrix" is the WiP name for this CC-focused exosuit unit I've been pondering about, armed with a huge shield, some kind of melee weapon, and a built-in flamer - I'm still unsure about the name; a lot of good terms such as Vanguard, Purifier, etc. are unfortunately already occupied by the gazillion things that some Space Marine Chapter gets)

Why can the drop pods only be fielded if the entire army deploys via deepstrike. That's no fun.

 pretre wrote:
Why can the drop pods only be fielded if the entire army deploys via deepstrike. That's no fun.

Agreed! Sometimes you need to the wrath of the Emperor on a Heretic's head to soften them up for the the Sisters to break their lines.

And yes, IIRC, that was a restriction from the CJ list, but still...

 pretre wrote:
And yes, IIRC, that was a restriction from the CJ list, but still...

Some rules are made to be forgotten!

pretre wrote:Why can the drop pods only be fielded if the entire army deploys via deepstrike. That's no fun.

I know, I know ...
I just thought it needs to be represented how rarely these pods are pulled out of mothballing - in short, they shouldn't show up as one or two useful pieces like with Marine Drop Pods, but either used not at all or as a devastating STEEL RAIN in lightning raids against critical objectives.

Also, I just noticed the Lightning would be a Heavy Support option...
The Fast Attack slot appears a bit empty now, but the scout cars could essentially be deployed in this role. Should they be listed in both categories? I'm just wondering because the Immolator is (atm) only a Dedicated Transport as well, no longer an individual Heavy choice.

I disagree on the grounds that I should never be shoehorned into a specific list build just to field things.

What about the times where they need to pull a "Hail Mary" and drop those into the entrenched enemy lines to disrupt, confuse and pull the Sister's butts out of the fire? Can't do that if I can only go all drop pod or none at all.

ClockworkZion wrote:What about the times where they need to pull a "Hail Mary" and drop those into the entrenched enemy lines to disrupt, confuse and pull the Sister's butts out of the fire? Can't do that if I can only go all drop pod or none at all.

But that's specifically what these units are not meant for!

I totally get what you mean and I agree this limitation is ... well, limiting, but at the end of the day it's just not how the Sororitas operate, or even (apparently) have the capabilities for. We could always discuss changing their fluff, but my suggestion is based on how they were meant to be used by the Citadel Journal background. It's why I also didn't put one of Sydney's tanks in there even though I dig the idea itself.

(and yes, it also serves to keep things a bit different from how the Marines do it - something that a lot of posters in this thread were concerned about earlier!)

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:What about the times where they need to pull a "Hail Mary" and drop those into the entrenched enemy lines to disrupt, confuse and pull the Sister's butts out of the fire? Can't do that if I can only go all drop pod or none at all.

But that's specifically what these units are not meant for!

I just don't agree with that. I can't imagine someone going "well crap. We're stuck in and at this rate we'll lose. Let's not use the weapons we have on our ships that are perfect to fix this issue to solve this problem." They're the Sisters not the Administratium!

 Lynata wrote:
I totally get what you mean and I agree this limitation is ... well, limiting, but at the end of the day it's just not how the Sororitas operate, or even (apparently) have the capabilities for. We could always discuss changing their fluff, but my suggestion is based on how they were meant to be used by the Citadel Journal background. It's why I also didn't put one of Sydney's tanks in there even though I dig the idea itself.

And my suggestion is that design philosophy is pants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I want to point out that Marines only get Drop Pods filled with Assault Cannons or Missiles from FW. Ours could easily be codex and more awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for the record: I'm not mad at you Lynata, it's just that GW as a whole have pretty much abandoned that sort of design philosophy and I loathe going back.

ClockworkZion wrote:I just don't agree with that. I can't imagine someone going "well crap. We're stuck in and at this rate we'll lose. Let's not use the weapons we have on our ships that are perfect to fix this issue to solve this problem." They're the Sisters not the Administratium!

Technically, it's not that easy. You don't just ship a bunch of Drop Pods stored in the armouries of the Convents Sanctorum and Primaris to some faraway warzone in a matter of minutes just because some SoB strike force is in trouble. Even if the Sisters would love to do that, travel limitations kind of make it impossible to use the small number of pods anywhere but in those high profile missions where they are deemed absolutely necessary right at the planning stage, so that they can be held ready and available where they are needed.

Hell, most times they likely wouldn't even have ships in the orbit. Or do you want to limit drop pods to the six Ordo Maioris paint schemes?

ClockworkZion wrote:Just for the record: I'm not mad at you Lynata, it's just that GW as a whole have pretty much abandoned that sort of design philosophy and I loathe going back.

's alright, I don't really like saying "no" here either, it's just that my stubborn adherence to established (studio) writings sometimes forces me into the role of Devil's Advocate, and this is one such case ...
I admit that I also don't see it as much of a big deal, though. It's certainly better to have them this way than not having them at all!

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:I just don't agree with that. I can't imagine someone going "well crap. We're stuck in and at this rate we'll lose. Let's not use the weapons we have on our ships that are perfect to fix this issue to solve this problem." They're the Sisters not the Administratium!

Technically, it's not that easy. You don't just ship a bunch of Drop Pods stored in the armouries of the Convents Sanctorum and Primaris to some faraway warzone in a matter of minutes just because some SoB strike force is in trouble. Even if the Sisters would love to do that, travel limitations kind of make it impossible to use the small number of pods anywhere but in those high profile missions where they are deemed absolutely necessary right at the planning stage, so that they can be held ready and available where they are needed.

Hell, most times they likely wouldn't even have ships in the orbit. Or do you want to limit drop pods to the six Ordo Maioris paint schemes?

Sisters have fleets in 2nd edition. It's not been countered by fluff yet. So why do the drop pods need to be stored on Terra and Ophelia VII exactly?

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Just for the record: I'm not mad at you Lynata, it's just that GW as a whole have pretty much abandoned that sort of design philosophy and I loathe going back.

's alright, I don't really like saying "no" here either, it's just that my stubborn adherence to established (studio) writings sometimes forces me into the role of Devil's Advocate, and this is one such case ...
I admit that I also don't see it as much of a big deal, though. It's certainly better to have them this way than not having them at all!

Studio writings give us the tools to easily adjust and change things though as we have fluff about Sisters having fleets and being bankrolled by the richest organization in the Imperium. I'm pretty sure they can mange to get enough drop pods together for our "~21,000-30,000" Sisters of Battle.

Hrm... I dunno. I don't see it so much as having shipped out a bunch of pods on a ship on the off-chance that they might be useful, but rather the ship the Sisters arrived to this war-zone on has them equipped and, who knows? Maybe the Sisters *did* originally deploy via pod, and they were recovered, repaired, and reinstalled.

Now, the battle we have on the tabletop right now is later on in that campaign, the Sisters find themselves in a situation where they need to deploy whatever reserve elements they have (that would be the Sisters in the pod, either newly arrived to the AO via other ships, or returning to active duty after combat injuries and cycling through reserve elements before returning to full duty), and so they call the reserves down in the pod. Of course, the Sisters being the Sisters, they don't have *that* many reserve units, so you get one, two squads of Battle Sisters, or maybe one squad supported by a pod filled with automated guns.

 Psienesis wrote:
Hrm... I dunno. I don't see it so much as having shipped out a bunch of pods on a ship on the off-chance that they might be useful, but rather the ship the Sisters arrived to this war-zone on has them equipped and, who knows? Maybe the Sisters *did* originally deploy via pod, and they were recovered, repaired, and reinstalled.

Now, the battle we have on the tabletop right now is later on in that campaign, the Sisters find themselves in a situation where they need to deploy whatever reserve elements they have (that would be the Sisters in the pod, either newly arrived to the AO via other ships, or returning to active duty after combat injuries and cycling through reserve elements before returning to full duty), and so they call the reserves down in the pod. Of course, the Sisters being the Sisters, they don't have *that* many reserve units, so you get one, two squads of Battle Sisters, or maybe one squad supported by a pod filled with automated guns.

Those also make nice points!

I am with Lynata here. Fluff is everything. I will actually like no Drop Pods in the Codex… and then a supplement about an Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, allowing you to field Drop Pods as in CJ49.

By the way. here is my wish list:
1) Palatines
2) Custom-made Living Saints
3) Praxedes. More named characters.
4) Combat Doctrine equivalent to represent the main Orders… and the Order of the Ermine Mantle.
5) Improved Celestians. Improved Command Squads. Famulatas, Elohim.
6) Plastic models for everyone.
7) Additional fluff with the Sisters kicking ass. Additional references to SM chapters been wiped out by them. The Sisters´ version on the war on Fenris. Fluff about the Sisters´ fleet.
8) Flyers (Avenger? Lighting Fighter? Valkyrie?).
9) Old style Repressor (four Fire Points). New Repressor.
10) Keep the 12 pts each. They are “equal to Space Marines”. Do not make them cheaper.
11) Penitent Engines moved to Elite. Shooty variant.
12) Acts of Faith reworked as in Witch Hunters
13) Incarcerators. Cataphalque tanks (whatever they are, they appeared in a leaked list as a dual kit with the Exorcist). Land Raider equivalent. Exorcists with skyfire. More tanks.
14) Zealots and Redemptionists. Crusaders and Arco-flagellants Squads.
15) Drop Pods (OH supplement?)
16) Techpriest equivalent with fluff explaining how they do their thing
17) Novices/ Cantus. Additional fluff about their training. Can Novices do Acts of Faith?
18) Close combat version of the Seraphins (Patronica Squads?)
19) Neural whips and Jump Packs for the Canoness.
20) Blessed Weapons, Blessed Armour, Braziers of Holy Fire, Fire Lances, Thunder Flamers, updated Praesidium Protectiva, Holy Prometium, and Phosphor Grenades!

ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters have fleets in 2nd edition. It's not been countered by fluff yet. So why do the drop pods need to be stored on Terra and Ophelia VII exactly?

Hey, I'm the one usually argueing for fleets! I'd even hazard a guess few people on dakka would know if I hadn't thrown around that quote as often as I did. But this and the strike force list were written at a time when there were no Minor Orders Militant, only the Major ones. It was not before the 3rd Edition Codex: WH that the concept of the Minor Orders was broadened from "more obscure specialisations" into "subsidiaries of the Major Orders".
Now, one could of course argue that anything that applied to the Orders Militant as a whole back then should apply to the Orders Militant as a whole now, in spite of the obvious addition of the Minor Orders, but here I am being cautious and try to focus on writer's intent rather than direct port, and the intent back then was for this to apply to the "Big Six".

The obscurity of any fluff about Sororitas spaceships further leads me to voluntarily limit these capabilities to seek greater acceptance from the fandom as a whole, basically being satisfied with few ships compared to huge numbers of fleets which would surely irritate a lot of people.
Lastly, consider that the Minor Orders have only about a hundred Sisters on average. Even a single spaceship would already be overkill for such a small convent - it's the equivalent of permanently assigning an aircraft carrier to support a single USMC company!

Hence I am rather looking at the Imperial Navy for (usually) temporary support on an as-needed basis whenever the Minor Orders are concerned. Given that these bases, unlike the Convents Sanctorum and Prioris, have been established with a locally limited task in mind, the Sisters should not have much reason to move around by themselves anyways.

This is all just my own interpretation, though, and I certainly don't claim absolute truth when it comes to such theories! Still, I find Psienesis' suggestion to be somewhat easier to accept: in essence, it could be summed up as "make them available, include the fluff about their extreme rarity, and let the player sort out how they justify their presence."

After all, the same thing could be said about Exorcists...

 Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:I would like something simpler... Useful Celestians.

I think we all agree on that!
Just give them storm shields and power weapons and call it a day.

Anyways, if you want variety ...

HQ
- Canoness (IC)
- Palatine (IC)
- Confessor (IC)
- Special Characters (IC)

Troops
- Battle Sister Squad
- Novice Aggregation Squad
- Frateris Militia Mob

Elites
- Celestian Squad
- Celestian Gladiatrix Squad
- Repentia Squad
- Hospitaller (IC)
- Armouress (IC)
- Priest (IC)

Fast Attack
- Dominion Squad
- Seraphim Squad

Heavy Support
- Retributor Squad
- Penitent Engine
- Exorcist MARS
- Lightning Attack Fighter
- Dominica Gun Pod*

Dedicated Transports
- Rhino APC
- Venator Scout Car
- Repressor IFV
- Immolator IFV
- Valkyrie Dropship
- Dominica Drop Pod*

*: unlocked by Canoness or Palatine, may only be fielded if the entire army deploys via deep-strike

("Gladiatrix" is the WiP name for this CC-focused exosuit unit I've been pondering about, armed with a huge shield, some kind of melee weapon, and a built-in flamer - I'm still unsure about the name; a lot of good terms such as Vanguard, Purifier, etc. are unfortunately already occupied by the gazillion things that some Space Marine Chapter gets)

Stat 'em up! Seek feedback in a thread! Don't stop homebrewing 'til you drop dead!

No, seriously, I want to see that army list now.

Ouphh, it only does contain three new units ... that being said, coming up with a proper profile and background entry for them might be fun.

By the way, I've been thinking about other possible names for that exosuit CC unit some more, and am currently considering names from angelic mythology. How would "Memitim" sound? Or perhaps Elohim, recycling that term which was already used as a (somewhat weird) Battle Sister rank in Dark Heresy? Another option could be Erelim ("valiant", "courageous", ranked above the Seraphim).
I'd also consider ranks or titles from religious military organisations, archaic names for weapons or armour (preferrably from Greece or Latin), or perhaps names of female warrior deities if they have an appropriate domain and the name would "synch" stylistically with what we have already.

If anyone could point me to more resources regarding this little pet-project, I'd be grateful.

Angelic mythology is cool, but the Hebrew names don't have much, well, name recognition. Your classic Catholic / Word of Dante set of Dominions, Powers, Virtues, etc. is going to be easier for folks to understand, especially in the vernacular

(Hey, you're from Italy, isn't that what your little flag says? I know it's pretty secular nowadays but there's gotta be some old-school Catholics left to consult....).

Thrones gotta be bikers, though, because (1) they ride into battle sitting and (2) Thrones are the angels described in the Book of Ezekiel as giant scary wheels.

 Lynata wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:The main problem with Lynata's idea is that... well, every Battle Sister and every Techpriest have power armour - why does this random battle sister techie not have power armour?

Because the Hospitaller doesn't, either.

um . . . currently; according to the WD mini-dex, both the Hospitaller and Diaglonious (part of the command squad) have 3+ saves (and hence we can assume they are wearing power armor). Their models sure don't look it, but there you go.

 Lynata wrote:
Hmmh, I wonder if perhaps such a character should not be a Battle Sister herself, but be classed under the "Sisters from other Orders" group - perhaps hailing from the Orders Pronatus, or an entirely new / as of yet undescribed Order that focuses on servicing the technology of the Sisterhood, in the same manner that the Orders Militant apparently have Sisters Hospitallers as attached medical specialists rather than training their own medics.
I think part of me would prefer these technicians to hail from the ranks of the Battle Sisters, but a special Order to service the entire Sisterhood could then also aid all the other branches of the Adepta Sororitas, such as maintenance of the Hospitallers' medical equipment, or the databanks of the Orders Famulous, and so on.
The Adepta Sororitas has been described as a huge network of interlinked parts all helping each other out, after all...

Having said that though; I'd be behind that kind of differentiation. The 'Tech Sister' being from a non-combat order is evocative and different. Plus would give some excellent modeling opportunities.

For the curious I've put a layer of polish on those drop pod rules: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/557112.page#6137216

And no I have no plans on restricting them.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think I'd like a dropship in fluff and art, but not sure I'd want to have a model for one in actual gameplay. Pods are big enough, but at least they are more tall than wide, I think having a Pelican (the SST-inspired troop transport in Halo) on the board, if it were actually designed to fit 10 or 12 Sisters, would just be too much.

Valkyries can do that and they're not too big.

SisterSydney wrote:Angelic mythology is cool, but the Hebrew names don't have much, well, name recognition. Your classic Catholic / Word of Dante set of Dominions, Powers, Virtues, etc. is going to be easier for folks to understand, especially in the vernacular

Unfortunately that is a valid concern. :(
Though that didn't prevent someone from already coming up with "Elohim", and it might make people who are curious google the term! The main concern might be that it just ... "sounds cool", maybe?

SisterSydney wrote:Hey, you're from Italy, isn't that what your little flag says? I know it's pretty secular nowadays but there's gotta be some old-school Catholics left to consult....

Ireland, actually. Emigrated there a couple years ago from Germany.
Sometimes you may also see me flying a French, UK or US flag, though. That's when I'm behind a proxy - so don't be surprised at my apparent globetrotting!

(also, protip: whenever you're not sure, hovering over the flag icon will show the country name in a little popup!)

Also, hah, you and your bikes! Love your reasoning though.

Pendix wrote:um . . . currently; according to the WD mini-dex, both the Hospitaller and Diaglonious (part of the command squad) have 3+ saves (and hence we can assume they are wearing power armor). Their models sure don't look it, but there you go.

Um.

Would you believe me that this is the first time I'm actually noticing this?

Wow... as far as wishlisting goes, I'd actually revert this to the save the model used to have in 3E! It kind of gave the Hospitaller more character by letting her equipment stick out a little more, and it certainly fit better to the mini. How is this power armour powered?

Pendix wrote:Having said that though; I'd be behind that kind of differentiation. The 'Tech Sister' being from a non-combat order is evocative and different. Plus would give some excellent modeling opportunities.

Thankyou!

Somehow, being in ireland doesn't weaken my faith in the fact that you can find a catholic if you look hard enough :p

I quite like the Hebrew names, but maybe that's just because I also like Evangelion. ^^; The -elim suffix means "child of divinity", so using it as an addendum to angelic names that don't end with -im to fit the theme is actually pretty convenient.

Suggested powers;

Afriel (angel of youth) - Afrielim (novices)
Ramiel (thunder of god) - Ramielim (alt heavy weapon squad?)

... I had more. I just can't remember them (or their translations in the case of Erelim and Pahalim)...

Had a thought, though maybe this would only be for games above (or below?) certain points-levels.

If you had an SC, let's call her the Mistress of Novices, either as the HQ or as part of the Conclave, it would unlock Novitiate Squads, which are WS2, BS2, T3, 4+ armed with pistol/CC in squads of 5, with option to purchase 1 HB or Flamer per squad (lower stats than BS... they're teens, basically). Might also have a "SitNW" type of SR for the Mistress, but haven't really worked that out, would toss this if the unlock permitted buying multiple squads. Novitiate Squads generate +1 FP for every turn they remain casualty-free.

Thinking that you could unlock this at 2k+ games, as this represents having the bulk (or the entirety) of an Order present... or, alternately, a 750-point games or lower, as this represents that the enemy has attacked a small Shrine or some other site that has few Sisters present... a squad of BSS, the Mistress of Novices (as HQ)... and the Novices here on a field trip.

@ NGE

Hmm, I also just considered the term "Nephilim" - it's more commonly known and would thus sound less alien to most, and its description as "violent giants" would fit perfectly to a unit of 8 feet tall CC-focused exoskeletons?

As for the Mistress of Novices ... I totally forgot about her! How about making her part of the Sororitas Command Squad? She would represent the Orders Famulous and thus fit in nicely with the whole "Sisters from other Orders" schpiel.
Regarding the Novices themselves, I'm still thinking about carapace + lasguns as standard equipment, but perhaps with an option to purchase a couple flamers or (normal) boltguns? And they could switch to laspistol + CC weapon for free.

I think they should have WS 2, BS 3, though, given that they are not far from "graduating". In fact ... studio background hints at the Novices being trained centrally before they are transferred to the convents (which does not happen until after taking their vows on Terra), and that novitiate education is carried out by the Orders Famulous. So how about making the Novices' presence on the battlefield a sort of "life fire exercise", a "rite of passage" where they must prove their dedication to serve alongside their (future) Sisters? A group of Novices in their final year together with their mistress joining with one of the Orders Militant in a campaign? They would aid the Sisters in their daily work, and when the time comes deploy alongside them on the fields of battle.

This is where the term "Aggregation Squad" comes from, by the way - it denotes the Novices' task and purpose in joining up with fully fledged Battle Sisters and fighting by their side. Making them "fit in" with the Sisterhood as the final part of their training.
See also this diagram of RL monastic order novitiate stages: http://books.google.ie/books?id=sgTAEQOSI50C&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127#v=onepage&q&f=false

Yeah, part of the SCS could work as well. I was thinking, though, of the Novices starting with either bolt-pistol and chainsword and/or boltgun since, well, they're in training. Why would they train with weapons they aren't going to be using? So two of the three holy weapons, bolter and flamer, and carapace. Perhaps a choice between a squad with bolters plus 1 HB (for a cost) or bolt-pistol/CCW plus one Flamer (for a cost), to suit the nature of the battle on the tabletop (slugfest or shoot-fest).

Never trust a fourteen year old with a melta. Believe me.

BS3 could work, as well. My intent of having it as BS2 was to not overshadow the actual Battle Sisters, especially if there was an added SitNW-like rule for the Mistress.

... and I rather like the "trial by fire" aspect of that, too.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, part of the SCS could work as well. I was thinking, though, of the Novices starting with either bolt-pistol and chainsword and/or boltgun since, well, they're in training. Why would they train with weapons they aren't going to be using? So two of the three holy weapons, bolter and flamer, and carapace. Perhaps a choice between a squad with bolters plus 1 HB (for a cost) or bolt-pistol/CCW plus one Flamer (for a cost), to suit the nature of the battle on the tabletop (slugfest or shoot-fest).

Giving the Novices lasguns makes sense because they're cheaper than bolters, easier to maintain, and can be dialed back in power for training. They're a good way for a girl to learn how to handle a rifle before graduating to the rocket launchers. Giving them chainswords doesn't make sense, because it's a useless skill for a Sister to learn, and a good way to get them killed.

I still don't like the lasguns.

Why lasguns? They won't use lasguns ever again, and recoilless weapons are useless for training in using bolters.

Autoguns, maybe, but I like the idea of bolt pistols as 'mini bolters for small hands'.

^This
Bolt pistol + close combat weapon?

 Psienesis wrote:

Never trust a fourteen year old with a melta. Believe me.

Now I want meltas and flamers for them too.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, part of the SCS could work as well. I was thinking, though, of the Novices starting with either bolt-pistol and chainsword and/or boltgun since, well, they're in training. Why would they train with weapons they aren't going to be using? So two of the three holy weapons, bolter and flamer, and carapace. Perhaps a choice between a squad with bolters plus 1 HB (for a cost) or bolt-pistol/CCW plus one Flamer (for a cost), to suit the nature of the battle on the tabletop (slugfest or shoot-fest).

Giving the Novices lasguns makes sense because they're cheaper than bolters, easier to maintain, and can be dialed back in power for training. They're a good way for a girl to learn how to handle a rifle before graduating to the rocket launchers. Giving them chainswords doesn't make sense, because it's a useless skill for a Sister to learn, and a good way to get them killed.

So you're saying that a Battle Sisters should have no training with one of the most ubiquitous melee weapons in the Imperium?

Not buying it. Sisters are trained in melee combat at the very least because they need to defend themselves. Plus it's a good way to raise aggression, and a good work out.

The US Army uses bayonet training not because you need to be ready for a bayonet charge at anytime but because it has physical and psychological benefits that exceed the time spent. Plus it never hurts to get them used to the idea of killing someone with their bare hands.

And that got dark quick.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I still don't like the lasguns.

Why lasguns? They won't use lasguns ever again, and recoilless weapons are useless for training in using bolters.

Autoguns, maybe, but I like the idea of bolt pistols as 'mini bolters for small hands'.

Low recoil weapons are superior for training because it actually gives them the opportunity to get the basics right. And pistols are even worse. Pistols are less accurate and have worse recoil than rifles, because of their light weight and short barrels.

Edit:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So you're saying that a Battle Sisters should have no training with one of the most ubiquitous melee weapons in the Imperium?

Not buying it. Sisters are trained in melee combat at the very least because they need to defend themselves.

They won't defend themselves with a chainsword. Teach them to use a sarissa if you wish, but the only time in a Sister's career she will ever use any form of chain weapon is if she becomes a Sister Repentia.

They will have already had that training in the Schola, long before they were accepted into the Sisterhood. This level of Novitiates are a single step below being full Sisters. They are, in a sense, the "Scouts" of the Sororitas.

... and Sisters never deploy with lasguns. Those are weapons for the common soldier, not the elite of the Ecclesiarchy, and are gak-useless against the primary targets of the Sisterhood.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I still don't like the lasguns.

Why lasguns? They won't use lasguns ever again, and recoilless weapons are useless for training in using bolters.

Autoguns, maybe, but I like the idea of bolt pistols as 'mini bolters for small hands'.

Low recoil weapons are superior for training because it actually gives them the opportunity to get the basics right. And pistols are even worse. Pistols are less accurate and have worse recoil than rifles, because of their light weight and short barrels.

Edit:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So you're saying that a Battle Sisters should have no training with one of the most ubiquitous melee weapons in the Imperium?

Not buying it. Sisters are trained in melee combat at the very least because they need to defend themselves.

They won't defend themselves with a chainsword. Teach them to use a sarissa if you wish, but the only time in a Sister's career she will ever use any form of chain weapon is if she becomes a Sister Repentia.

Uh, why exactly? Most of the art, and a ton of the models, have sisters with Chain Swords/Eviscerators.

 AlexHolker wrote:
but the only time in a Sister's career she will ever use any form of chain weapon is if she becomes a Sister Repentia.

My Canoness begs to differ.

Chainswords and eviscerators are common throughout the Sisterhood.

The Sarissa is, basically, a bayonet for your boltgun. A chainsword seems to be the primary ccw for the rank-and-file, based on numerous depictions of the Sisters in art and literature. Though, this seems to hold true for *most* of the elite military formations of the Imperium. Officers carry power weapons, regular grunts carry chainswords.

Yyyep! That's usually how it goes.

I went for las weapons specifically because they're Novices - the boltgun is almost a holy weapon, so although I would let them have training with these weapons, I wouldn't let them "own" one until they have proven themselves worthy - as a fully fledged Sister Militant.
In short, I almost see it like a part of a full Sister's "uniform", together with the power armour, and the Novices should be a straight downgrade from the rank-and-file Battle Sister, whilst still making her more expensively equipped than the common Guardsman (hence the carapace).
The options of buying a flamer or a bolter for a Novice would basically represent rewards for being "the best in class" or something; a special accolade of honour reflecting their behaviour during the novitiate.

It's much the same with the Eviscerator, by the way - it was said in C:WH to be a ceremonial weapon, which is probably one of the main reasons for why it is not commonly issued.

There are also practical considerations, though. A boltgun is a rather heavy piece of equipment, and even at the age of 16-17 (~end of novitiate) it's bound to be problematic to some girls, considering that Space Marines use bolter drills in weeding out potential recruits from children not much younger than that ("no broken bones? congratulations, you've passed the test!"), and that the Novices do not enjoy the benefits of a suit of strength-enhancing powered armour. Meanwhile, the chainsword seems to be a sort of "officer weapon" issued only to squad leaders, perhaps a badge of office even, so I would argue for "lesser" CC weapons for the Novices much like I would expect them to be carried by normal Sisters.

If anyone remembers Dawn of War - the basic Battle Sisters were pulling out short, broad sabres or short swords when getting caught in melee.
I don't have a screenshot, but you can see the Battle Sisters saluting Aeneis with them at the start of this cutscene video.

... whilst looking for screenshots, I did find this, though:Badass. Gief Lightning!

Hmm... makes some sense, but I'm still not keen with lasguns for fluff reasons. Too... common. Too lightweight and not hard-hitting enough.

Shotguns, maybe, for their longarms? They do deploy with the Arbites fairly often... and I imagine that a lot of "field trips" for the Novitiates involve those genetic purity sweeps and purge-missions the Arbites get up to.

Granted, I also went for las weapons as they (and the carapace) were the starting equipment for Sororitas Novices in Dark Heresy. As much as I often complain about what FFG ultimately did with the Sisters, the original Black Industries team always seemed to have the right idea, so this was one of the concepts I had adopted for my own headcanon.
Also, there's different types of lasguns in terms of quality and efficiency, too, and in the fluff I would note how the Sisters are getting a more expensive one (both basic cost as well as added "bling") than IG standard issue. In fact, I was considering the Triplex-pattern, which, according to the 5E Guard Codex, is highly sought after due to its variable power setting.

Shotguns are an interesting idea, and even though they feel a bit Marine-Scout'ish I like your reasoning regarding the purity sweeps, as this is exactly the type of deployment I could see the Sisterhood using Novice squads in...
Perhaps include them as a free alternative?

Any model may replace her lasgun with:
- a laspistol ......... free

For every five models in the squad, one Novice may replace her lasgun with one of the following:
- a boltgun ......... +10 pts
- a flamer ........... +5 pts
- a shotgun ......... free

(point values are purely off the top of my head, didn't spend much thought on them)

lol, Triplex-pattern assault laser. Good for 1000 shots before the entire mechanism needs replacing - about 30 seconds continuous firing! - from 13th Legion.

Now I had to think of "Demolition Man" where the bad guy takes the cryo chamber's surgical pulse laser and zaps around a bit to fight the hero, then smashes it against a wall to break the containment circuit and produce a continuous, much more destructive beam...

"Dammit girl! How many times did I tell you to take better care of your gear?!"
*young teen stumbles around in the background, trying to control her lasgun which keeps firing a continuous broad beam at the ceiling, shooting out a number of lights whilst other Novices cower in fear of falling debris* "I'm sorry Mistress!"

I had another '80s movie in mind for Novices: Aliens. Remember Private Vasquez's awesome smart gun rig?

14-year-old girls can train with full-sized bolt guns because they've got a special armature built into their carapace -- not enough to count as power armor, not as elaborate & unwieldy as Vasquez's, just enough to let them effectively fire the weapon they'll be using for the rest of their lives. Maybe power armor arm components built into what's otherwise regular carapace.

Battle Sisters seem to be fully qualified with bolters as soon as they get their power armor. (Maybe not BS4, maybe that's the squad average, but qualified). Training with autoguns, shotguns, let alone recoiless las guns ain't gonna get you there. Even the bolt pistol teaches you the wrong stance and movements because it's normally one-handed -- unless you make a carbine version for the novices, not implausible -- and it'll break your wrist just as bad as a bolt gun will break both your wrists unless you have some kind of mechanical help holding it.

QED? No, but totally headcanon.

When it comes to the Sisters Boltgun I always assumed that perhaps the recoil issue is handled by using a lower powder charge to get the slug moving as it's real strength is from the secondary firing (gyrojets) which seem to have a time-delayed fuse, and the explosiveness of the round itself. A lower powder charge could compensate for the recoil without sacrificing killing power.

ClockworkZio wrote:When it comes to the Sisters Boltgun I always assumed that perhaps the recoil issue is handled by using a lower powder charge to get the slug moving as it's real strength is from the secondary firing (gyrojets) which seem to have a time-delayed fuse, and the explosiveness of the round itself. A lower powder charge could compensate for the recoil without sacrificing killing power.

Yeah. I never considered recoil to be of much trouble to anyone, actually - in GW's material the main issue was always the weight, and the 2E Wargear book flat out states the projectile leaves the barrel "at low velocity". Together with Stalker shells supposedly travelling at subsonic speeds, this just makes me think a bolter would have no more recoil than a shotgun, and this is before you add technological solutions such as the "blast compensator" from the 3E rulebook's bolter schematic. You can shoot a contemporary AA12 shotgun in full auto single-handedly, thanks to the magic of recoil compensation.
What Codex fluff points out again and again, however, is how much bolt weapons weigh, given that they are very sturdy and large weapons firing rather big munitions. Even if the body were of some advanced plastic (like the German G36), lots of parts including the huge and thick barrel would still be metal. And the magazine alone must be quite heavy!

SisterSydney wrote:I had another '80s movie in mind for Novices: Aliens. Remember Private Vasquez's awesome smart gun rig?

Hah. On that note, did you ever notice the exoskeleton and mechanised hand of the Retributor/"Heavy" Sisters?





It's a curious detail!

(also an awesome paintjob the guy did - you can nicely see the fibre-webbed "undersuit" over which the armour plates are worn)

SisterSydney wrote:Battle Sisters seem to be fully qualified with bolters as soon as they get their power armor. (Maybe not BS4, maybe that's the squad average, but qualified). Training with autoguns, shotguns, let alone recoiless las guns ain't gonna get you there.

That's why I think they'd train with all of them - but not be allowed to "own" a bolter until proven worthy!

But yeah, of course it's just a matter of interpretation, and I'm certainly not saying my headcanon is better than yours. We're all just throwing around ideas here, after all.

From experiance, the best weapons training results come from putting it in their hands on day 1 and training them on it regularly. Make them carry it everywhere, grow attached to it, bond with it, learn it's every curve, scratch and quirk.

That's what is being done by real militaries and the people who train this way are better shots, more conscious about not "flagging" their buddies and generally more comfortable with the weapon.

I can see the Sisters doing the same thing. Perhaps going as far as the bolter their issued is theirs until death (if they take the Vow of Repentance I'd then assume it's held for them in hopes they return "forgiven").

But that's my mixing of head canon and real life experience.

Now as for weight, the Sisters Bolters look to be scaled down from the larger Marine ones. I assume they also employ a smaller magazine as well, requiring more reloading as well.

Now considering that, it seems to be fairly in scale, with the bearer and is only roughly as little wider than they are, Infact, this image gives us a good sense of what the scale of the weapon should be:


So based on that image, the Bolter is roughly the size of a carbine or maybe a bullpup (or even one of the larger SMGs out there) in length, but a bit taller, and with more housing than our weapons typically do. Now if it were solid metal the heat wouldn't disperse efficiently and it'd cook off rounds, so that large body is likely mostly a heat shroud with some ventilation built in to prevent that issue.

Based on that I'd say the Bolter the Sisters uses is more likely in the weight range of a loaded M16 or Ak-47 (in that order): 3.6 kg (7.9 lb)- 4.78 kg (10.5 lb).

Now the real factor for them would be endurance. And the power armor would assist in keeping their aim truer (as when fatigue sets in, so does shaking) as well as making the weight be less of a problem.

As for the Heavy Bolter, it's fairly stubby, but even with the thick barrel it can't be a solid object (as covered above). If I had to guess that the extra servo harness likely gives them the ability to fight weapon climb as something that powerful would become an AA weapon without some kind of way to keep it from climbing. Additionally it'd be a lot of long term strain on the arms, especially since they don't use any kind of sling to distribute the weight backwards. I'd likely class it as being around as heavy as a M2 Browning without the tripod which clocks in at 38 kg (83.78 lb). I figure that despite being a good couple feet shorter, the thicker barrel and heavier firing mechanism likely make up the difference.

So in that case you really would need some kind of power armor with strength enhancement to carry it around for long periods of time and use it effectively.

But that's just my take on it.

ClockworkZion wrote:From experiance, the best weapons training results come from putting it in their hands on day 1 and training them on it regularly. Make them carry it everywhere, grow attached to it, bond with it, learn it's every curve, scratch and quirk.

Yes, but the thing is that quite a large number of Novices won't even end up in the Orders Militant - the selection doesn't happen until the end of their novitiate, and a Sister Hospitaller rarely uses a bolter. Besides, "day 1" would include the many years of Schola training, where a progena has a much higher chance of becoming, say, an Arbitrator or an Imperial Guard NCO.
I also like to see the Sororitas as capable of improvising on military matters, though... there was a bit in the old Sororitas fluff bible about young Sisters training to use not only the holy trinity, but also las weapons and even autorifles, just in case they'd ever have need of these skills.

ClockworkZion wrote:Now as for weight, the Sisters Bolters look to be scaled down from the larger Marine ones. I assume they also employ a smaller magazine as well, requiring more reloading as well.

That's my thinking as well, actually. They both utilise the same ammunition, though, so the basic internals need to be the same. I like to rationalise it as the Marine version having a sort of armoured casing, allowing it to better resist the stress of close combat. For example, in the heat of the moment, a Marine may use their bolter as a club, or even just have the weapon catch a bit of brick as they break through a wall. Smaller models may well miss this additional plating, and are thus somewhat less able to cope with battlefield conditions. The cross section from the 3E rulebook also hints at a ton of gadgets - such as a "self-repair circuit" - that smaller bolters may be missing. Conveniently, this last bit would imitate how Sororitas power armour behaves to its related and just as protective, but much bulkier Astartes counterpart.

For magazines, the size differences would also explain how sickle magazines are said to hold "between 20 and 30 rounds", probably with ~30 being for the Marine version and ~20 for the smaller ones.

ClockworkZion wrote:Now the real factor for them would be endurance. And the power armor would assist in keeping their aim truer (as when fatigue sets in, so does shaking) as well as making the weight be less of a problem.

Agreed! But since Novices don't have PA yet ...

ClockworkZion wrote:As for the Heavy Bolter, it's fairly stubby, but even with the thick barrel it can't be a solid object (as covered above). If I had to guess that the extra servo harness likely gives them the ability to fight weapon climb as something that powerful would become an AA weapon without some kind of way to keep it from climbing. Additionally it'd be a lot of long term strain on the arms, especially since they don't use any kind of sling to distribute the weight backwards. I'd likely class it as being around as heavy as a M2 Browning without the tripod which clocks in at 38 kg (83.78 lb). I figure that despite being a good couple feet shorter, the thicker barrel and heavier firing mechanism likely make up the difference.

Well, this additional arm exoskeleton is also used by Sisters wielding a Heavy Flamer and Multimelta.

We know there are some few humans who are capable of wielding their heavy weapon like a rifle (Harker), but it seems to be an extraordinary feat to just operate one single-handedly at all. In the Imperial Guard, this is done by two people, one of whom carries the weapon, the other the ammunition.

"All bolt weapons are highly advanced and technologically sophisticated, and the heavy version is the most effective and complex weapon of its type. They are extremely bulky and often known as 'back breaker' by those who carry them."
- Necromunda rulebook

You go carry an 80lbs weapon and tell me it doesn't break your back.

And the weight of a bolter, at least the Sisters me is perfectly reasonable. It sucks to carry a loaded M16 for lon periods of time but it's not an unreasonable weight.

And I was an Admin guy in the Army, didn't stop them from training me how how to shoot or kick doors in. I imagine all Novices recieving the same basic trainng and then more advanced training later when they are split into their orders?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
From experiance, the best weapons training results come from putting it in their hands on day 1 and training them on it regularly. Make them carry it everywhere, grow attached to it, bond with it, learn it's every curve, scratch and quirk.

That's what is being done by real militaries and the people who train this way are better shots, more conscious about not "flagging" their buddies and generally more comfortable with the weapon.

I can see the Sisters doing the same thing. Perhaps going as far as the bolter their issued is theirs until death (if they take the Vow of Repentance I'd then assume it's held for them in hopes they return "forgiven").

But that's my mixing of head canon and real life experience.

Now as for weight, the Sisters Bolters look to be scaled down from the larger Marine ones. I assume they also employ a smaller magazine as well, requiring more reloading as well.

Now considering that, it seems to be fairly in scale, with the bearer and is only roughly as little wider than they are, Infact, this image gives us a good sense of what the scale of the weapon should be:


So based on that image, the Bolter is roughly the size of a carbine or maybe a bullpup (or even one of the larger SMGs out there) in length, but a bit taller, and with more housing than our weapons typically do. Now if it were solid metal the heat wouldn't disperse efficiently and it'd cook off rounds, so that large body is likely mostly a heat shroud with some ventilation built in to prevent that issue.

Based on that I'd say the Bolter the Sisters uses is more likely in the weight range of a loaded M16 or Ak-47 (in that order): 3.6 kg (7.9 lb)- 4.78 kg (10.5 lb).

Now the real factor for them would be endurance. And the power armor would assist in keeping their aim truer (as when fatigue sets in, so does shaking) as well as making the weight be less of a problem.

As for the Heavy Bolter, it's fairly stubby, but even with the thick barrel it can't be a solid object (as covered above). If I had to guess that the extra servo harness likely gives them the ability to fight weapon climb as something that powerful would become an AA weapon without some kind of way to keep it from climbing. Additionally it'd be a lot of long term strain on the arms, especially since they don't use any kind of sling to distribute the weight backwards. I'd likely class it as being around as heavy as a M2 Browning without the tripod which clocks in at 38 kg (83.78 lb). I figure that despite being a good couple feet shorter, the thicker barrel and heavier firing mechanism likely make up the difference.

So in that case you really would need some kind of power armor with strength enhancement to carry it around for long periods of time and use it effectively.

But that's just my take on it.

IF you go by FFG fluff:

The space marines use larger Astarus-pattern bolter, because well... They are 7 ft tall superhumans and need larger grips and trigger guards etc.

Sisters would use Godwyn-pattern bolters, that are sized for normal humans. and a bolter is a bolter, they both use the same sized round.

Also don't forget that both wear power armor, which will help absorb recoil.

Ralis wrote:
IF you go by FFG fluff:

Which we needn't, since the Witch Hunters codex talks about it. Not that I don't like FFG stuff (I'd love to give it a go, in fact), but apparently they've made some odd decisions with regards to Sororitas equipment, from what I've heard. Like them using "civilian" bolters, or something like that.

Ralis wrote:
Sisters would use Godwyn-pattern bolters, that are sized for normal humans. and a bolter is a bolter, they both use the same sized round.

Godwyn-De'az Pattern, specifically. What's interesting is that the codex says that it is superior to nearly all other boltgun-type weapons. Probably because, as with their armour, it's of a more modern design than many of its equivilants.

Just for the record, we've made gyrojet pistols as a species and they barely recoil. So we can leave that out of consideration.

Wishlist kit: All plastic Avenger Strike Fighter complete with Sisters bitz and a SOB pilot.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Wishlist kit: All plastic Avenger Strike Fighter complete with Sisters bitz and a SOB pilot.

Hell yeah. I'd love a proper SoB flyer. It'd also nicely put an end to the misconception that the Sisters absolutely cannot have their own flyers (it could be true, though, not 100% sure).

Or, failing the Avenger making it over from FW, a Lightning Fighter and/or Sororitas Valkyrie would be cool as well.

 Troike wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Wishlist kit: All plastic Avenger Strike Fighter complete with Sisters bitz and a SOB pilot.

Hell yeah. I'd love a proper SoB flyer. It'd also nicely put an end to the misconception that the Sisters absolutely cannot have their own flyers (it could be true, though, not 100% sure).

Or, failing the Avenger making it over from FW, a Lightning Fighter and/or Sororitas Valkyrie would be cool as well.

I still say we should get our own drop vehicle/gunship.

I think the Avenger AND a dropship would be the perfect one two for the Sisters.

Sisters drop ship, definitely: should be Sororitas Valkyries -- just look at the name! We have to have it for the name alone!

More seriously, there are good fluffcanon answers in this thread: Do sisters have spaceships? (No Sydney homebrew in there, I promise, just smarter people than me talking about canon).


As for bolters for Novices:

1) the fact some novices are headed for non-militant Orders doesn't exempt them from needing firearms training: the Hospitallers in particular are often field medics and get bolt pistols & power armor in the White Dwarf codex, the Dialogus go on dangerous expeditions where their linguistic expertise is needed to communicate with devolved locals or read cursed runes, the Famulous sometimes have to negotiate with a bullet to the head, etc. So bolter and bolt pistol training is a must for everyone.

2) the big deal at the end of the invitation ceremony at the Ecclesiarchal palace where novices become full Battle Sisters is getting their power armor -- nothing in fluff I've seen about their getting their first bolter.
Now it's an interesting question whether novices are given a bolter-for-life or just get them as needed for training. If it's true that non-militant orders are in the same training program (I hadn't known that), then I'd suspect it's as-needed, though maybe older novices get tracked for Famulous, Hospitaller, Battle Sisters and receive their personal boltgun then.
Also they've got to do some power armor training during their novitiate, otherwise they couldn't use it immediately on becoming Sisters, but it's probably using smelly old training suits ("Did someone throw up in here?") that don't fit anyone particularly well, which is why getting your own personally fitted armor at initiation is such a huge deal.

In Hammer and Anvil the Medic, doesn't she use a bolter and refer to her training with it? Clockwork is correct that they'd be trained with the weapon they'd be using. Also, the bolter would be heavier than an AK. It'd be more like a fully loaded SAW. Isn't the bolter something ridiculous like.75 caliber? That's going to be a big gun, power armor or not. High tech materials could lessen the weight a great deal so I'll give them that.

Lightweight materials yes, but also 40K is so grimdark that even teenage girls routinely carry heavy weapons.

Well, at least if they're headed for the Sororitas. I imagine most Hive kids have to make do with a second-hand stubber and a stout piece of metal pipe. Maybe there's a charity in the Imperium to correct this? "Leave No Child Unarmed"?

Sisters use Godwyn-De'az pattern. Astartes use Godwyn-pattern.

In the second Ultramarines novel, there's a scene with a Hospitaller taking up a bolter against the Tyranid horde along with something like "She wasn't as good as a Battle Sister, but she knew her way around the weapon".

Then again, Blood of Ughaheim claims that the Famulous didn't know she could use a bolter until she switch orders to the Militant.

Don't SoB mostly use marine based tech?-Short of a video game showing them using Valkyries... wouldn't they tend to use something in the vein of the Stormraven and Stormtalon?

I'm imagining a cross between the Darktalon and Stormtalon... Imagine the front half of the DarkTalon: wings, engines, and all; the rear half of the Stormtalon with its tilt engines and tail, sandwiching a 10-12 model transport bay.

 MWHistorian wrote:
In Hammer and Anvil the Medic, doesn't she use a bolter and refer to her training with it? Clockwork is correct that they'd be trained with the weapon they'd be using. Also, the bolter would be heavier than an AK. It'd be more like a fully loaded SAW. Isn't the bolter something ridiculous like.75 caliber? That's going to be a big gun, power armor or not. High tech materials could lessen the weight a great deal so I'll give them that.

Sisters use a smaller, lighter bolter than the Marines. It appears to be shorter than an AK, but has a heavier barrel and firing mechanism hence the weight comparison. I'd imagine that it weighs as much as a fully loaded AK as it can't be 100% solid or the heat wouldn't transfer out as effectively. The top cover is likely a removeable shroud and there should be some space inside that's basically a bit empty.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters use a smaller, lighter bolter than the Marines. It appears to be shorter than an AK, but has a heavier barrel and firing mechanism hence the weight comparison. I'd imagine that it weighs as much as a fully loaded AK as it can't be 100% solid or the heat wouldn't transfer out as effectively. The top cover is likely a removeable shroud and there should be some space inside that's basically a bit empty.

According to FFG, a non-Astartes boltgun weights 7kgs. It is nearly the double of the weight of the AK-47 (~4kgs).

 MWHistorian wrote:
In Hammer and Anvil the Medic, doesn't she use a bolter and refer to her training with it? Clockwork is correct that they'd be trained with the weapon they'd be using. Also, the bolter would be heavier than an AK. It'd be more like a fully loaded SAW. Isn't the bolter something ridiculous like.75 caliber? That's going to be a big gun, power armor or not. High tech materials could lessen the weight a great deal so I'll give them that.

I realize it's the Grim dark future...

.75 cal isn't that crazy. It's only slightly larger than a shotgun shell. So weightwise you're looking at something akin to a heavier automatic shotgun, plus whatever the weight of the bolter's guidance system and the gyrostabilizer. All that before weight of ammo.

The AA12 automatic shotgun, which is generally regarded as overweight is 11.5 lbs, unloaded.

The closest thing to a bolter's subsystems would probably be the XM-25 target set sight and programmer.... 4.6 lbs.

Giving us a modern analog of 16 lbs. this isn't to say that's the weight of bolter, rather just a baseline. Then you add the weight of ammo and it's over 20lbs. It should be considered that for individual weapons 7-8lbs is the standard. At a system weight of over 20lbs its a light squad support weapon. When one considers the grandure of Marines and SoB the nothin that they all carry something that today would only be a squad weapon seems appropriate. The marine versions are probably heavier for the same reason Ogryn weapons are, ruggedized for someone who might swing it like a club.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters use a smaller, lighter bolter than the Marines. It appears to be shorter than an AK, but has a heavier barrel and firing mechanism hence the weight comparison. I'd imagine that it weighs as much as a fully loaded AK as it can't be 100% solid or the heat wouldn't transfer out as effectively. The top cover is likely a removeable shroud and there should be some space inside that's basically a bit empty.

According to FFG, a non-Astartes boltgun weights 7kgs. It is nearly the double of the weight of the AK-47 (~4kgs).

They also think Power Armor should only have enough juice for a few hours completely negating the fact that it's often used for days on end. Forgive me if I ignore what they say.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They also think Power Armor should only have enough juice for 3 hours completely negating the fact that it's often used for days on end. Forgive me if I ignore what they say.

Only "civilian" PA (as it lacks the power backpack). Military PA can go on until the end of times.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They also think Power Armor should only have enough juice for 3 hours completely negating the fact that it's often used for days on end. Forgive me if I ignore what they say.

Only "civilian" PA (as it lacks the power backpack). Military PA can go on until the end of times.

Right, because an Inquisitor would really be tromping around in something that can just die on him at random.

Look, the FFG stuff is fun, but it has some issues and I don't count it as canon for much beyond "stuff exists".

The idea that Sisters would be using 'civilian-grade' weaponry is, in itself, laughable.

Or shooting laser beams out of their eyes.

Personally, I found FFG's fluff to be really "hit and miss". They've got some very cool ideas, but the Sisters really suffered if you compare their material in the RPG to Codex descriptions.
I think SoB were still treated better when Dark Heresy was written by Black Industries, when Acts of Faith were still just as vague as they are in GW's TT, and when 50 Battle Sisters was said to be unusually much for a single sector, their mere presence and the worrying nobles being offered as a possible plot for GMs. Even the invention of "Novices on Detached Duty" was a brilliant idea to explain the presence of such characters in an Inquisitorial player party.
Then FFG took over, the writers switched, Acts of Faith got turned into proper space magic with light shooting out of their eyes, and the number of Sisters got centuplicated. Compared to the numbers from the Codex, an entire Major Order has moved a full third of its entire personnel to the Calixis Sector, and that's before you begin counting the other Orders that are now there as well. Also, Battle Sisters are now capable of taking on renegade Guard and "even" Orks. No word about them purging Marine Chapters - but that's no wonder, because their "civilian" boltguns suck so much they don't even have a chance to punch through the Marines' better armour and the toughness of their naked skin.

Bah, I'm ranting again. In the end, of course FFG's stuff is neither more right nor wrong as GW's own material, but as a Sisters fan I know what to prefer.
Much of the above may just be the result of the game designers' attempt to force them into the "wrong" game - you basically have these characters right next to Guardsmen, Scribes and Hive Gangers. Their fluff might have turned out differently had they waited until Deathwatch to write them up as playable characters, complete with rules that are balanced to Marine PCs rather than Acolytes. FFG's different 40k RPGs are unfortunately "standalones" with their own focus in narration and rules, rather than being meant to be compatible to each other. It's why Marines in DW get a ton more traits than Marines in Black Crusade, for example. Or why you have two different kinds of Genestealers (one for normal humans, one for Deathwatch SM).

ClockworkZion wrote:And I was an Admin guy in the Army, didn't stop them from training me how how to shoot or kick doors in. I imagine all Novices recieving the same basic trainng and then more advanced training later when they are split into their orders?

SisterSydney wrote:the fact some novices are headed for non-militant Orders doesn't exempt them from needing firearms training: the Hospitallers in particular are often field medics and get bolt pistols & power armor in the White Dwarf codex, the Dialogus go on dangerous expeditions where their linguistic expertise is needed to communicate with devolved locals or read cursed runes, the Famulous sometimes have to negotiate with a bullet to the head, etc.

That's why I was saying they'd be trained in all sorts of wargear - in fact, they would very likely already start martial training in the Schola Progenium as soon as their potential for service in one of the many military or paramilitary arms of the Imperium is noticed (which is where I imagine they'd pick up basic las drill). Training with Sororitas equipment would commence after the start of their novitiate.

Fluffwise, it could be argued either way ("in actual combat give them the stuff they are most used to" vs "let them do their trial of fire with actual SoB gear" vs "the bolter is the mark of a fully fledged Sister, not a Novice", etc), so I'll freely admit that it is mostly a stylistic preference to me. It serves to separate them more from the status of a "full" Sister, lets them appear a bit more elegant (sleek lasgun vs crude, bulky bolter), and it marks a happy medium between IG and SoB. Let's just say I fell in love with the sketches I've been drawing and the artwork I've commissioned.

SisterSydney wrote:Sisters drop ship, definitely: should be Sororitas Valkyries -- just look at the name! We have to have it for the name alone!

Valid point.

SisterSydney wrote:Lightweight materials yes, but also 40K is so grimdark that even teenage girls routinely carry heavy weapons. [...] I imagine most Hive kids have to make do with a second-hand stubber and a stout piece of metal pipe. Maybe there's a charity in the Imperium to correct this? "Leave No Child Unarmed"?

Necromunda Juves.

aka_mythos wrote:Don't SoB mostly use marine based tech?-Short of a video game showing them using Valkyries... wouldn't they tend to use something in the vein of the Stormraven and Stormtalon?

Their stuff isn't Marine-based, but rather both Marine and Sisters equipment has the same predecessor - at least this was said in the description of their power armour ("based on the same archaic systems"). I guess you could say it's two branches of the same root?
The tricky thing with the Stormraven and Stormtalon (aside from their weird "stunted" look ) is that those were supposedly developed specifically for the Marines - unlike, say, the Rhino which the Astartes are just one of several users of.

PS: the Avenger still looks gak. Go Lightning!

I just meant marine's tech is generally more sophisticated and of a higher quality than IG tech, and thus whatever SoB have flyerwise would tend to look more like the marine aircraft.

How hard would it then be to give the SoB a predecessor to either or both of the two? That is the root of those two marine vehicles, such an aircraft would give them something unique while also justifying why SM don't use them. Writing some fluff about some older less specialized aircraft that developed into the Stormraven and Stormtalon.It wouldn't be an inferior aircraft just something not as specialized.

 Lynata wrote:
... Let's just say I fell in love with the sketches I've been drawing and the artwork I've commissioned.

Spoiler:

Oh! More novice art!

*snaffles*

You're welcome

aka_mythos wrote:How hard would it then be to give the SoB a predecessor to either or both of the two? That is the root of those two marine vehicles, such an aircraft would give them something unique while also justifying why SM don't use them. Writing some fluff about some older less specialized aircraft that developed into the Stormraven and Stormtalon.It wouldn't be an inferior aircraft just something not as specialized.

Well, technically, why should it not be the Valkyrie? It's not like IG stuff must be inferior to Marine equipment, often it just serves a different capacity.

Take the Rhino, for example. The only areas where it could be considered better than a Chimaera is air-drop capability and the ease to repair it in the field. This suits both Marine (and Sororitas) method and speed of deployment, as well as making it more reliable for forces that, unlike the lumbering behemoth that is a full regiment of the Imperial Guard, may be crippled if only a single vehicle breaks down. The Chimaera, however, is better armoured and better armed, suitable for an army that prefers a simplistic but brutally efficient head-on assault. It's just a matter of specialisations.

So, what exactly are the differences between the Valkyrie and the Stormraven? Am I right in assuming (from the first looks) that a somewhat viable comparison might be a Bell UH-1E helo to a Mil Mi-24 Hind gunship?

1. Valkyries
The Valkyrie's combination of firepower (when upgraded), armour, and passenger capacity actually make it much more like the Hind than like any US helicopter. We tend to have pure attach/recon helicopters (Cobra, Kiowa, Apache, even Comanche before it was cancelled) and pure utility/transport choppers (Huey, Black Hawk, Chinook, etc.).

The Stormraven, as far as I can tell, is just bigger and blockier and better armed, like all things Astartes. Being in the Space Marines is kind of like being in Texas: Everything's bigger there.....


2. Rhinos
Besides the prestige of the more ancient vehicle, I think the main attraction of Rhinos for the Astartes and Sororitas is that their rugged, self-repairing systems require a hell of a lot less maintenance than something like the Chimera. The Imperial Guard can throw lots of bodies and spare parts at its maintenance problems, the Marines and Sisters can't.

3. Novices
I love that Novice picture, Lynata, I really do, it's been in my "neat images" folder for a long time. (So you sketched it and then paid someone to do it in full color? Not quite clear what you meant there). Maybe that's their "casual" uniform and weaponry. But I still think they got the basics like lasguns, and even firing boltguns from a braced position, in Schola; by the time they make Novice, they're training on bolters and in carapace -- not power armour yet because (a) it's really expensive and requires custom tailoring (b) as Melissia (I think) said with her Novice squads, their bodies' haven't finished growing so it'd be pointless to fit them for power armor.

4. New units
Yeah, I made some. Some more, I mean. This thread inspired me to pull out my homebrew notebook to refine & post
- Novices: WS2, BS3, Ld7, boltguns and carapace, with an Act of Faith called "Childrens' Crusade" and a special rule called "sacrificial lambs."
- Reapers: WS3, BS5 (yes, five, not a typo), stealthy & shrouded infiltrators.
- Thrones: Sororitas Bikers, with T3 because their bikes are lighter than Marines' but an average of +6" per turn because they're really fething fast. Also HIt & Run.

All comments, critiques, and frustrated head-desking at my obsessive behavior are welcome over in the Proposed Rules thread for the new units.

 Pendix wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
... Let's just say I fell in love with the sketches I've been drawing and the artwork I've commissioned.

Spoiler:

Oh! More novice art!

*snaffles*

"Do you think Sister Superior will notice we painted these Fleur de Li on?"
"Nah we should be fine, if she does I'm sure she'll appreciate our dedication and enthusiasm"
"Okay, if you're sure. Where did you get a face painting kit any way?"

Maybe it's a mark of good conduct ... you know, like the stamps you get in elementary school. Just on your face instead of your exercise book!

SisterSydney wrote:The Valkyrie's combination of firepower (when upgraded), armour, and passenger capacity actually make it much more like the Hind than like any US helicopter. We tend to have pure attach/recon helicopters (Cobra, Kiowa, Apache, even Comanche before it was cancelled) and pure utility/transport choppers (Huey, Black Hawk, Chinook, etc.).
The Stormraven, as far as I can tell, is just bigger and blockier and better armed, like all things Astartes. Being in the Space Marines is kind of like being in Texas: Everything's bigger there.....

I've compared the Valkyrie to the Hind in the past myself, not in the least because I think I'm seeing some distinctive design similarities there (double canopy? check. twin engines behind cockpit? check. wings with hardpoints? check. general "rugged russian construction" style? check.)


I just struggled to find something I could compare the Stormraven to - so I ultimately resolved to bump the Valkyrie down a bit to the next-best gunship I could think of, even if it's a rather crude "solution".

So you're saying you don't see any differences in terms of usage, velocity or manoeuverability between the two?

SisterSydney wrote:Besides the prestige of the more ancient vehicle, I think the main attraction of Rhinos for the Astartes and Sororitas is that their rugged, self-repairing systems require a hell of a lot less maintenance than something like the Chimera. The Imperial Guard can throw lots of bodies and spare parts at its maintenance problems, the Marines and Sisters can't.

Well, they probably could in their HQ ... but not in the field.
Easier maintenance at home is yet another factor to consider, though, when we think back on our earlier discussion regarding the engineering and maintenance capabilities of the Sisterhood.

SisterSydney wrote:So you sketched it and then paid someone to do it in full color? Not quite clear what you meant there

Nah, I just came up with the basic design, then got two artists who are simply better than I am to "draw them properly".
The design seems to have caught on with some people by now - I've seen at least one picture where it was used without me paying for it.

So I was talking a second look at the picture with the massive cathedral and I don't think it's feasible at that size as anything.

Why? If you look really closely at the image I put in the spoilers you might catch why:


Did you see it? The masses leading from the foreground to the cathedral in the back? You see how they become itty-bitty tiny specks right next to the thing? Yeah, that think is likely a couple MILES long.

Still playing with the idea, but I need to play with things more to really see what I can come up with I think.

Technically, no Tracked Cathedral needs to look exactly like another. I somehow doubt this is a serial production model.

That aside, you could always pull the "artwork =/= real thing" card. Look at the Living Saint on that pic. And the Penitent Engine also isn't that big as a model.

From what I understand, One of the biggest differences, and why the Space marines prefer the Rhino over the Chimera is that the Rhino is air-drop capable while the Chimera is not. And since it can be air dropped, its better suited to the rapid deployment of the marines.

The Chimera has its strong points too. having more and better built in weapons, more fire ports, as well as being aquatic.

 Lynata wrote:
Technically, no Tracked Cathedral needs to look exactly like another. I somehow doubt this is a serial production model.

That aside, you could always pull the "artwork =/= real thing" card. Look at the Living Saint on that pic. And the Penitent Engine also isn't that big as a model.

It's called perspective, as if you were on the ground, seeing this. That thing is MASSIVE. I'd love to know the context how it came to be. Both fluff and art.

And I know they don't all need to be the same but when I looked closely that thing was bigger than I'd expected it to be and I just wanted people to know that maybe we need to look at something a bit...smaller.

 Lynata wrote:
You're welcome

aka_mythos wrote:How hard would it then be to give the SoB a predecessor to either or both of the two? That is the root of those two marine vehicles, such an aircraft would give them something unique while also justifying why SM don't use them. Writing some fluff about some older less specialized aircraft that developed into the Stormraven and Stormtalon.It wouldn't be an inferior aircraft just something not as specialized.

Well, technically, why should it not be the Valkyrie? It's not like IG stuff must be inferior to Marine equipment, often it just serves a different capacity.

Take the Rhino, for example. The only areas where it could be considered better than a Chimaera is air-drop capability and the ease to repair it in the field. This suits both Marine (and Sororitas) method and speed of deployment, as well as making it more reliable for forces that, unlike the lumbering behemoth that is a full regiment of the Imperial Guard, may be crippled if only a single vehicle breaks down. The Chimaera, however, is better armoured and better armed, suitable for an army that prefers a simplistic but brutally efficient head-on assault. It's just a matter of specialisations.

So, what exactly are the differences between the Valkyrie and the Stormraven? Am I right in assuming (from the first looks) that a somewhat viable comparison might be a Bell UH-1E helo to a Mil Mi-24 Hind gunship?

I have my agenda of seeing SoB with more unique and distinct units. So I'm admittedly looking for ways such units can be justified.

The Valkyrie is admittedly some of the most advance vehicles available to the IG, but consider how much bigger and more heavily armed SM aircraft are despite having smaller engines than a Valkyrie. That's representative of the tech gap between those two groups.

If SoB are so privileged to receive power armor, bolters, and rhino variants I tend to believe they'd continued to be equipped comparably to SM even if equipped differently.

ClockworkZion wrote:It's called perspective, as if you were on the ground, seeing this.

Thanks, I did have art in school too. ;p
Look at the PE model - the "driver" is about half as big as the Engine, whereas on the drawing it's more like 1/3. The body is much bulkier there.

It's no surprise, really. There are differences just about everywhere. Look at the Sisters' armour. It's called artistic licence.

aka_mythos wrote:The Valkyrie is admittedly some of the most advance vehicles available to the IG, but consider how much bigger and more heavily armed SM aircraft are despite having smaller engines than a Valkyrie.

I'd imagine it's also quite a bit slower and less manoeuverable, more intended as a slow gunship rather than a fast transport. Different focuses, just like with the Chimaera and the Rhino.
Though that's just my interpretation - and of course I have my agenda, too (I just think the Valkyrie design is the sex).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Technically, no Tracked Cathedral needs to look exactly like another. I somehow doubt this is a serial production model.

That aside, you could always pull the "artwork =/= real thing" card. Look at the Living Saint on that pic. And the Penitent Engine also isn't that big as a model.

It's called perspective, as if you were on the ground, seeing this. That thing is MASSIVE. I'd love to know the context how it came to be. Both fluff and art.

And I know they don't all need to be the same but when I looked closely that thing was bigger than I'd expected it to be and I just wanted people to know that maybe we need to look at something a bit...smaller.

I . . . I used to think that was a starship (landed) . . . this is the first time I've noticed the tracks . . . good lord.

 Pendix wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Technically, no Tracked Cathedral needs to look exactly like another. I somehow doubt this is a serial production model.

That aside, you could always pull the "artwork =/= real thing" card. Look at the Living Saint on that pic. And the Penitent Engine also isn't that big as a model.

It's called perspective, as if you were on the ground, seeing this. That thing is MASSIVE. I'd love to know the context how it came to be. Both fluff and art.

And I know they don't all need to be the same but when I looked closely that thing was bigger than I'd expected it to be and I just wanted people to know that maybe we need to look at something a bit...smaller.

I . . . I used to think that was a starship (landed) . . . this is the first time I've noticed the tracks . . . good lord.

Yeah, the Ecclesiarchy likes to go BIG.

 Lynata wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Valkyrie is admittedly some of the most advance vehicles available to the IG, but consider how much bigger and more heavily armed SM aircraft are despite having smaller engines than a Valkyrie.

I'd imagine it's also quite a bit slower and less manoeuverable, more intended as a slow gunship rather than a fast transport. Different focuses, just like with the Chimaera and the Rhino.
Though that's just my interpretation - and of course I have my agenda, too (I just think the Valkyrie design is the sex).

Another reason I think SoB shouldn't have Valkyries is that it's a different aesthetic, not cohesive with the other vehicles. Even if SoB had "Valkyries" they wouldn't look identical to the IG models. Consider what FW has done by making Marine Legion Basilisks and inevitable Leman Russ tanks... Same tanks as IG but built to the higher marine standard.

I dunno, I think the Valkyrie's general shape goes quite well with the Rhino in terms of angles etc. Obviously, just like the SoB version of the Rhino, it'd receive some devotional markings and the fleur-de-lis slapped on it, but other than that ...

Matter of preferences yet again, I suppose.

So that's where Sister Nabiki came from. Hehe.

Yeah, the cathedral tank is bigger than Saint Paul's. ^^; Not really battlefield deployable, the only other Imperial vehicles that big are Ordinatii and maybe Leviathans.

What about a mobile shrine, rather than church? Something on the scale of the Cauldron of Blood or the Coven Throne?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
What about a mobile shrine, rather than church? Something on the scale of the Cauldron of Blood or the Coven Throne?

I went bigger for the two I was building - two Land Raider chassis combined into one bigger vehicle, and a 4"*4" building in the middle. Here's the paper prototype, and a scale picture.

That's quite impressive. Do you have rules for it?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That's quite impressive. Do you have rules for it?

It's pretty close to a reflavoured Stormlord, so that's an easy way to use it without houserules.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
What about a mobile shrine, rather than church? Something on the scale of the Cauldron of Blood or the Coven Throne?

I went bigger for the two I was building - two Land Raider chassis combined into one bigger vehicle, and a 4"*4" building in the middle. Here's the paper prototype, and a scale picture.

Umm....why aren't you working night and day on that until its finished? That looks like its going to be amazing. Needs lots of flame weapons. And a troop ramp so the faithful can charge out of it and smite the heretics.

ugh, daughters of the emperor collection looks so sick, but $700, this i cannot afford.

The land raider church looks great! Only thing I'd do differently is to incorporate more of the church into the hull and make it look more cohesive.

Given the scale in the origina image likely looking at Epic / Dystopian Wars range

That being said love the LR conversion.

So I was productive this weekend and converted up a new Celestine model!

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/tutorial-easy-winged-celestine.html

Yes, that says wings, and no, they aren't the organic, mutant kind either. This isn't X-Men after all!

Nicely done!

Well its only a few days now and we can start discussing how to "fix" the latest codex

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nicely done!

Well its only a few days now and we can start discussing how to "fix" the latest codex

Thanks! I like the way it came out myself. Still trying to nail down exactly what I want to do with Sanguinor. I know he'll be terrain but the question is what kind.

Shrine would seem appropriate.

I don't know if it's been said (and I'm too lazy to read through 20+ pages) but right now, I just want a hardback codex.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Shrine would seem appropriate.

That's a thought, as is a half-destroyed fountain...

Like I said, I haven't nailed it down to any one specific thing yet. Either way he'll make a nice bit of statue work.


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 Happyjew wrote:
I don't know if it's been said (and I'm too lazy to read through 20+ pages) but right now, I just want a hardback codex.

Well I want a trained Polar Bear named Mr. Wiggles but we all can't get what we want now can we?

More seriously, we all do, but it's not going to happen -this month-.

Or year for that matter.

So I've been thinking and I may make some people unhappy with this but......I really don't like the idea of Novices in a Sisters army. It just rings false when I think about it. Sisters are only assigned to an order after they complete their training, at which point they are no longer a novice and instead are assigned to a Battle Sisters Squad under the tutelage of a Sister Superior to train.

So in my opinion at least, keep the Novices off the table. Sisters don't bring them to war, and their basic troops already represent the "raw recruits" so to speak of those who do go to combat.


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 Melissia wrote:
Or year for that matter.

Well with it being almost Christmas that's not really a surprise.

I think next year looks pretty promising, but we'll have to see how things fill out to know for sure.

 AlexHolker wrote:

I went bigger for the two I was building - two Land Raider chassis combined into one bigger vehicle, and a 4"*4" building in the middle. Here's the paper prototype, and a scale picture.

Back when Codex-Witch Hunters let us include a Inquisitorial Land Raider I converted one up with banners, extra panels and a whole bunch of stuff from the Immolater kit to make it fit in with the rest of my army. I thought it was a pretty ambitious conversion at the time . . . it does not have anything on that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I've been thinking and I may make some people unhappy with this but......I really don't like the idea of Novices in a Sisters army. It just rings false when I think about it. Sisters are only assigned to an order after they complete their training, at which point they are no longer a novice and instead are assigned to a Battle Sisters Squad under the tutelage of a Sister Superior to train.

I kinda agree. From what I'm thinking, you'd only really see Novices on the battlefield if their Schola was under threat. I don't think that the Orders Militant would really have, or indeed want them on the battlefield otherwise. Sisters aren't the IG, after all, they're an elite fighting force. They probably wouldn't want to utilise soldiers who hadn't finished their training, or indeed could well still be too young to fight well. From a gameplay view, I understand that they'd neatly fill a niche in the AS army, but I'm not really "feeling it" from a fluff perspective.

On a related note, the first three paragraphs of this page gives a decent overview of how the process of being a Novice and then becoming a Battle Sisters goes.Bascially, they train at their Schola, go to Terra to get blessed by the Ecclesiarch, and then get approached by a Superior from a given Order to go and join said Order. This is also the point where they recieve their power armour, incidentally.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I've been thinking and I may make some people unhappy with this but......I really don't like the idea of Novices in a Sisters army. It just rings false when I think about it. Sisters are only assigned to an order after they complete their training, at which point they are no longer a novice and instead are assigned to a Battle Sisters Squad under the tutelage of a Sister Superior to train.

I see your point, but nothing says "grimdark" like child soldiers. Also I want Gunslinger Girls and Mathilda from Leon the Professional IN SPACE (ok, Mathilda is more Schola age, fine) alongside my Sigourney Weavers and Milla Jovoviches in power armor, because AWESOME.


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 Troike wrote:
From what I'm thinking, you'd only really see Novices on the battlefield if their Schola was under threat. I don't think that the Orders Militant would really have, or indeed want them on the battlefield otherwise. Sisters aren't the IG, after all, they're an elite fighting force. They probably wouldn't want to utilise soldiers who hadn't finished their training, or indeed could well still be too young to fight well. ...

All true, but remember the Imperium is falling apart. As I wrote in my post writing up a Novice squad, the Adepta Sororitas only send their "Little Sisters" into battle as a desperate measure -- but desperate times call for desperate measures, and in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, times are desperate all the time.

.Bascially, they train at their Schola, go to Terra to get blessed by the Ecclesiarch, and then get approached by a Superior from a given Order to go and join said Order. This is also the point where they recieve their power armour, incidentally.

Confused now...So when and where do they do their Novitiate? At Schola? On Terra?

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I've been thinking and I may make some people unhappy with this but......I really don't like the idea of Novices in a Sisters army. It just rings false when I think about it. Sisters are only assigned to an order after they complete their training, at which point they are no longer a novice and instead are assigned to a Battle Sisters Squad under the tutelage of a Sister Superior to train.

I kinda agree. From what I'm thinking, you'd only really see Novices on the battlefield if their Schola was under threat. I don't think that the Orders Militant would really have, or indeed want them on the battlefield otherwise. Sisters aren't the IG, after all, they're an elite fighting force. They probably wouldn't want to utilise soldiers who hadn't finished their training, or indeed could well still be too young to fight well. From a gameplay view, I understand that they'd neatly fill a niche in the AS army, but I'm not really "feeling it" from a fluff perspective.

On a related note, the first three paragraphs of this page gives a decent overview of how the process of being a Novice and then becoming a Battle Sisters goes.Bascially, they train at their Schola, go to Terra to get blessed by the Ecclesiarch, and then get approached by a Superior from a given Order to go and join said Order. This is also the point where they recieve their power armour, incidentally.

Oh neat, fluff!

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I've been thinking and I may make some people unhappy with this but......I really don't like the idea of Novices in a Sisters army. It just rings false when I think about it. Sisters are only assigned to an order after they complete their training, at which point they are no longer a novice and instead are assigned to a Battle Sisters Squad under the tutelage of a Sister Superior to train.

I see your point, but nothing says "grimdark" like child soldiers. Also I want Gunslinger Girls and Mathilda from Leon the Professional IN SPACE (ok, Mathilda is more Schola age, fine) alongside my Sigourney Weavers and Milla Jovoviches in power armor, because AWESOME.

Nothing says "Did not do the research" as someone who claims Novices are children. The Scholara starts training people for their future careers at 16, they don't go off to be Sisters until they're 18. Soooo....not children then. If you want child soldiers look at Krieg or some of the other IGs.

So yeah, Novices aren't children either. Sorry but your headcanon is wrong.

 SisterSydney wrote:
All true, but remember the Imperium is falling apart. As I wrote in my post writing up a Novice squad, the Adepta Sororitas only send their "Little Sisters" into battle as a desperate measure -- but desperate times call for desperate measures, and in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, times are desperate all the time.

I know the Imperium is slowly dying, but I still only see Novices seeing combat if their Schola is under threat. And an Order wouldn't just have to defend a Schola's planet on their own, after all. There'd be a PDF obviously, and since a Schola world is fairly important, IG will probably be on hand to help if the Schola's world is attacked.

So basically, I just don't see the Novices being deployed on a regular basis alongside Battle Sisters. I don't mean to try and ruin anybody's fun, though. By all means, wish for the idea and talk about how they'd work on the tabletop, if you want. The above is jut my take on the matter.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Confused now...So when and where do they do their Novitiate? At Schola? On Terra?

They train as Novices in their Schola, yeah. Once they've completed that, they travel to Terra to get their blessing. The ceremony finishes with a Superior claiming a Novice for her Order and giving the Novice her power armour, thus making the Novice into a Battle Sister.

I am wrong about many things much of the time, as either Clockwork or my wife could tell you. I actually am not sure I'm wrong about this, though. To quote that old bit of Inquisitor background about Sister Anastasia you linked to*:

Raised at the Schola Progenium facility at Antigone's Harbour, Rosetta Anastasia was singled out by the Order Famulous as a potential recruit for the Adepta Sororitas at the age of twelve years.....During her period as a Novice, Anastasia was indoctrinated into the ancient beliefs and traditions of the Sisterhood.....At the age of seventeen, Anastasia stood with five hundred of her fellow Novices and took the Oaths of Adherence in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra. The Ecclesiarch himself blessed the assembled Novices in a ceremony that lasted throughout the night, and culminated at dawn with a superior from each of the Orders Militant stepping forward to lead each of the girls off to don the armour of their new Order for the very first time....

(* Link is http://web.archive.org/web/20071218114030/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/repentia.html , I'm having trouble to get it to embed for some reason).

That sounds like the Novitiate begins at age 12 or 13, lasts 4-5 years, and concludes around age 17 with initiation as a full Battle Sister of a specific Order. It doesn't make clear whether the Novitiate occurs at Schola or elsewhere. But that's consistent with Novices being "child soldiers," i.e. teenagers below the age at which most modern legal systems would consider them adults. (In real life, the US gets in trouble with the UN for letting people enlist at age 17....).

As for Novices not being a regular part of a Sororitas force, that's probably true. If your army doesn't include them, that means your Order is either always on the offensive or simply so scrupulous about protecting its Little Sisters that it never puts them in harm's way -- and good for them. But I'd like a list that gives the option to represent the desperate and the morally dubious, too, because both those things are central to the setting.

[Edited and almost totally rewritten -- apologies for that -- a small edit got unexpedtedly big]

The US let's people enlist under the age of 18 but has to also not actually put them into combat (yes, there are rules that the army polices itself on for this). But the Imperium is not the US and it's safe to say IG units have kids as young as 15 or so running around.

Once a Sister joins an order properly she is no longer a Novice. That's something you're honestly missing Sydney, you can't have Novices in a Sisters army because they don't have Novices, that's a rank that's left once you leave the Scholera. That's been my point (which I feel is ignored), the lowest level Adepta Sororita in the Militant Order is a "Battle Sister". Non Militant Orders probably list them as something else, but you leave the Novice title once you enter an Order.

As for seeing anyone who has not been fully indoctrinated into an Order, you're more likely to see them fighting along side the PDF than a full order, unless a full order is on hand, in which case their inexperiance would be a detriment and they'd be left to assist the wounded and evacuated rather than fighting.

But for that to happen someone needs to attack Terra or Ophelia VII, and it hasn't happened yet.

SisterSydney wrote:Confused now...So when and where do they do their Novitiate? At Schola? On Terra?

Neither! Or rather, some of them may do it on Terra.

Look at the already provided link about Sister Anastasia, and this one about Ephrael Stern. Yeah, I know, the latter is a Black Library character, but her file was hosted on GW's main homepage, which makes at least this part of her background studio material:

Rosetta Anastasia
Upbringing: Antigone's Harbor Schola Progenium (0-12 years)
Novitiate: unknown (12-17 years)
Final Assignment: Subiaco Diablo (17+)

Ephrael Stern
Upbringing: Antigone's Harbor Schola Progenium (age unspecified)
Novitiate: Terra (age unspecified)
Final Assignment: Ophelia VII (age unspecified)

It is unfortunately not documented where exactly Anastasia had her novitiate, but if we cross-reference her file with that of Ephrael, then being singled out by an emissary of the Orders Famulous means they get transferred away to a different location.
It is also worth noting that the Order of the Holy Seal, by which Ephrael was recruited, is based in the Convent Prioris on Terra, which led me to the assumption that the novitiate - something that every single Sister regardless of later affiliation will share - is organised and conducted by the Orders Famulous. With the Orders' experience in matters of genetic testing (checking the bloodlines of Imperial nobility) and childhood education (Sisters Famulous sometimes serve as governess to a noble's child), they are perhaps best-suited for both the selection process and the initial training and indoctrination of new recruits.

ClockworkZion wrote:Nothing says "Did not do the research" as someone who claims Novices are children. The Scholara starts training people for their future careers at 16, they don't go off to be Sisters until they're 18. Soooo....not children then. If you want child soldiers look at Krieg or some of the other IGs.
So yeah, Novices aren't children either. Sorry but your headcanon is wrong.

Following Rosetta Anastasia's example, Progena can become Novices at the age of 12, and become fully-fledged Battle Sisters at the age of 17. So Novices are kinda young, and in line with the media that SisterSydney referenced.

ClockworkZion wrote:That's something you're honestly missing Sydney, you can't have Novices in a Sisters army because they don't have Novices, that's a rank that's left once you leave the Scholera.

There are no Novices in the Schola. When you're in the Schola Progenium, you are a Progena.
Unless you count those dreadful Sandy Mitchell novels and their contradicting fluff.

And I support the idea of Novices on the battlefield not in the least because I've been proposing it earlier *ahem*
Like it was suggested earlier, it could be a "trial of fire" where they get to use their training under battlefield conditions (and are evaluated based on performance), exactly like the Cadian Whiteshields that already serve as an example of the Imperium sending young teens into warzones.

 Lynata wrote:
There are no Novices in the Schola. When you're in the Schola Progenium, you are a Progena.
Unless you count those dreadful Sandy Mitchell novels and their contradicting fluff.

Oh gosh, I think I may have been. So, Novices are trained by the Famulous, and are only at a Schola beforehand? Okay, perception of the fluff amended. Thanks.

Nope, not buying the "Trial of Fire" stuff there. That just screams "we waste our troops like the IG!" to me.


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The thing is that no matter how you slice it there is nothing in the fluff of the Sisters that even suggests Novices are put into combat. And I like that. They don't waste bodies like the Guard, and once they're ready for combat they're ready (unlike the Marines who need to literally grow into it).

I'd agree that the Sisters would husband (?better word, please?) their human resources much more carefully than the Guard.

My thought was that any "trial by fire" would be under controlled conditions, on missions against very weak targets -- or targets already blown to hell by regular troops -- and with lots of regular Sisters on hand for backup. It'd be less throwing the Novices in at the deep and more "Okay, we've cleared the heretics out of all the buildings but that one. We think there're two of 'em in there with a heavy stubber, maybe some frag grenades. You girls go in and get 'em."

9 times out of 10, it's a cakewalk, maybe there's not even anyone there after all. 1 time out of 10, a Novice dies. Still way better than the attrition rates in Marine training.

But 1 time out of 100, it goes utterly pear-shaped and that is the kind of extreme circumstances that most games replicate. We don't bother playing out, say, a Space Marine operation that goes as planned, when overwhelming force at the critical point annihilates the enemy before they even know what's happening: It'd be dull. A pitched battle against an equally powerful force is the default for all wargames but it's exactly the thing real-life commanders are paid to avoid at all costs.

Or the Novices would taken along on campaigns but kept on the safest duty possible --- they'd be in the baggage train, as it were, like the pages in Henry V .... who all got massacred when French villagers raided the camp while the rest of the English army had thrown every able-boded adult into the line at Agincourt.

Henry V, Act 4, Scene VII:



Even in our history, things can go very, very, very wrong. In the 41st Millennium....

There's also nothing that suggests Novices are not put into combat. That's the nice thing here - it's completely open to interpretation!
Those of us who don't like it can continue to ignore the possibility, and those of us who think it's cool can adopt it into their "headcanon".

And "wasting our troops" ... honestly, we're talking about an organisation that sends their veterans onto the battlefield clad in rags and swinging huge two-handed swords for something like not being able to remember all 99 prayers or something.
It really doesn't take much to spin the fluff this way. The combination of "the purpose of life is to suffer" and "the Emperor watches over us" can easily be interpreted as "if they are pure of heart and mind, they will prevail".

SisterSydney wrote:9 times out of 10, it's a cakewalk, maybe there's not even anyone there after all. 1 time out of 10, a Novice dies. Still way better than the attrition rates in Marine training.

This too.
For my own Minor Order's fluff, before I noticed that Novices are trained not in the Order directly, I had it be a tradition that they help out the Arbites in patrolling a Hive.

Lynata, you should know better than thinking that all Repentia are veterans. They're Sisters who FUBAR and then take the Vow of Repentence as a self-imposed penance.

And while you can shove it in your head canon all you want, the fact that it's a detail that was omitted in the Sister's training and lives tells me that is doesn't happen. I'm looking at what was left out and how it shapes what remains and "commiting our not fully trained troops to live combat" doesn't fit the Sister's mentality to me. They are the best trained humans in the Imperium, why risk losing a bright trainee to a "training accident" where a heretic gets lucky with his autopistol?

I don't see it ever being a part of the main codex and honestly I strongly feel it has no place in any fandex.

I've not said that all Repentia are veterans, but a large amount of them will be. The longer you're in an Order, the more likely it gets that you slip up - either with one big mistake, or because you can't stop committing small ones. Like the lapsing memory for prayers, for example. In theory, it could be trauma or a head injury as many a veteran would have it.

As for the rest, given that we have no facts about what Novices do or don't, I guess this is just another area where we simply have our own ideas. The important thing is that neither your nor mine nor Sydney's suggestion breaks with the studio fluff - even though we may argue about how it may fit to our own, individual interpretations. For example, in Sydney's case, I'm still against all Novices being issued bolters by default. But that doesn't mean I'm "right".

Okay, pulling out what I've studied about convents and such...A novice isn't officially a member of the order. They're in training. In smaller convents and orders that training is done at the convent where they'll be living. They haven't taken vows and can leave at any time. But, in the WH40K universe, that training takes place on either Earth or Ophelia. This is religious as well as specialized training depending on what they're going to do. (Famulous, dialogus, Militant, etc.) Think basic training and then A.I.T, Advanced Individual Training. So, once they take their oaths they are shipped off to wherever they're assigned and at this point they are full fledged Sisters of Battle. They'll be the newbie but they'll be legit.
A novice won't be fighting anything because they'd have to ship each group off of Earth or Ophelia just to find something to do and knowing the warp, that could take a long time. So I don't see that happening. Their first taste of non-training combat will be with their order, fully kitted up like their sisters.
As for using lasguns, sure, in training that would be useful at first, like how V.M.I. uses .22 target rifles. But reeeaaallllyyy soon you'd better move to what their actual gun will be or they'll develop training scars: learning things one way that are different than what they'll actually be using can cause problems when the doo doo hits the fan. But no SOB will ever use a lasgun in anger. (I was a firearms trainer for a while. You don't want to train with a gun you won't actually be using. Trust me on that.)
Once the sister arrives at her convent, she's under the tutelage of an experienced sister. This is how convents in history act and that's how its described in SOB fluff. So, no units of novices, which is a shame because I love the idea. But it simply can't work under the fluff GW has written.
We have to stretch our imaginations and think of a different way to get another troop choice.

 MWHistorian wrote:
We have to stretch our imaginations and think of a different way to get another troop choice.

Not a lot of stretching required, actually. Just bring back Redemptionists/zealots. They'd be a very characterful unit, and would have their own niche on the tabletop.

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
We have to stretch our imaginations and think of a different way to get another troop choice.

Not a lot of stretching required, actually. Just bring back Redemptionists/zealots. They'd be a very characterful unit, and would have their own niche on the tabletop.

I fully endorse this idea.

I vote for a large mob made of the "Repentant", that is to say those tried for Heresy and found guilty but are allowed to seek forgiveness through battle. If they live the Emperor has forgiven them and they may then lead a normal life again.

Think of it as a high attrition "scared straight" plan.

Wargear wise I'd figure they'd have Feel No Pain (they're too riled up to notice some wounds) and they grab whatever they can get their hands on to fight in melee. As for ranged weapons I'd like to think they'd basically try stoning the enemy to death (count as a pistol ). The really lucky ones might get a hold of an autopistol or improvise a weapon like a flamer (with Sydney's Improvised Weapons rule) and occasionally they loot bodies on the battlefield. We could even put Priests (1:10?) in to drive the flocks, armed with Nueral whips they use to drive the masses forward.


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Is that grimdark enough?

MWHistorian wrote:But, in the WH40K universe, that training takes place on either Earth or Ophelia. This is religious as well as specialized training depending on what they're going to do. (Famulous, dialogus, Militant, etc.)

A Novice's final assignment is not determined until after they've participated in the ceremony in the Ecclesiarchal Palace - at least this is what the stories about Anastasia and Ephrael suggest. Likewise, Terra and Ophelia may not be the only places where Novices are trained. This is where four Major Orders Famulous are headquartered, but technically they could have subsidiary convents elsewhere just like the Orders Militant do.

I'm not saying this is the case, just that this is an option!

MWHistorian wrote:A novice won't be fighting anything because they'd have to ship each group off of Earth or Ophelia just to find something to do and knowing the warp, that could take a long time. So I don't see that happening.

On the contrary! Terra and Ophelia is where the six Major Orders Militant are headquartered. This is from where they set out to fight their Wars of Faith and other battles! It's the perfect place to "catch a ride" and accompany a couple veterans into a warzone. Much better than some Minor Order's locally limited business. This is where you get to see action with the Big Six!

"The Adepta Sororitas have an extensive Convent on each of these planets which are home to members of all Orders. For most of the time, members of the Sisterhood will not be occupying their Convent but are dispatched across the Imperium in accordance with their various duties. However, the Convent still bustles with new recruits and organisational staff, even when most of its inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith or employed in some other major effort."
- 2E C:SoB, Organisation of the Sisterhood, The Convents Sanctorum and Prioris

MWHistorian wrote:But it simply can't work under the fluff GW has written.

I don't see an obvious contradiction. Did I miss something or are just talking interpretations here?

[edit] Also, +1 on Zealots and Redemptionists. I want the Frateris Militia back! They were fun to use in the one instance I had the opportunity.

Of course, I've written up Frateris Militia too.... comments welcome.

 Lynata wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:But, in the WH40K universe, that training takes place on either Earth or Ophelia. This is religious as well as specialized training depending on what they're going to do. (Famulous, dialogus, Militant, etc.)

A Novice's final assignment is not determined until after they've participated in the ceremony in the Ecclesiarchal Palace - at least this is what the stories about Anastasia and Ephrael suggest. Likewise, Terra and Ophelia may not be the only places where Novices are trained. This is where four Major Orders Famulous are headquartered, but technically they could have subsidiary convents elsewhere just like the Orders Militant do.

I'm not saying this is the case, just that this is an option!

MWHistorian wrote:A novice won't be fighting anything because they'd have to ship each group off of Earth or Ophelia just to find something to do and knowing the warp, that could take a long time. So I don't see that happening.

On the contrary! Terra and Ophelia is where the six Major Orders Militant are headquartered. This is from where they set out to fight their Wars of Faith and other battles! It's the perfect place to "catch a ride" and accompany a couple veterans into a warzone. Much better than some Minor Order's locally limited business. This is where you get to see action with the Big Six!

"The Adepta Sororitas have an extensive Convent on each of these planets which are home to members of all Orders. For most of the time, members of the Sisterhood will not be occupying their Convent but are dispatched across the Imperium in accordance with their various duties. However, the Convent still bustles with new recruits and organisational staff, even when most of its inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith or employed in some other major effort."
- 2E C:SoB, Organisation of the Sisterhood, The Convents Sanctorum and Prioris

MWHistorian wrote:But it simply can't work under the fluff GW has written.

I don't see an obvious contradiction. Did I miss something or are just talking interpretations here?

[edit] Also, +1 on Zealots and Redemptionists. I want the Frateris Militia back! They were fun to use in the one instance I had the opportunity.

I'm saying that given a combination of historical convents and the fluff GW has written, novices don't see combat. as for the 'hitch a ride to battle' that's even worse. That means you're throwing the novices in the furnace and that's not how its done. They'd get slaughtered far too often to make it worthwhile. These aren't imperial guard who recruit by the billions. This is far more specialized. That quote above says "the convent still bustles with new recruits...even when most of the inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith..." That means trainees stay at home. So unless the convent world gets attacked, novices won't be seeing combat. Its not a question of interpretation, its a question of logistics. They simply don't train enough potential sisters to waste them in expendable rabble units.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Wargear wise I'd figure they'd have Feel No Pain (they're too riled up to notice some wounds) and they grab whatever they can get their hands on to fight in melee. As for ranged weapons I'd like to think they'd basically try stoning the enemy to death (count as a pistol ). The really lucky ones might get a hold of an autopistol or improvise a weapon like a flamer (with Sydney's Improvised Weapons rule) and occasionally they loot bodies on the battlefield. We could even put Priests (1:10?) in to drive the flocks, armed with Nueral whips they use to drive the masses forward.

My vision for them is essentially a big tarpit sort of unit. They'd have, as you said, fairly rubbish weapons, but could have high numbers and priest that gives them stubborn to counter that. Their purpose would be to camp objectives, or to hold up dangerous enemies whilst your other units got into position.

I'd also see them recieving a penalty to their leadership if their priest leader died, possibly.

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Wargear wise I'd figure they'd have Feel No Pain (they're too riled up to notice some wounds) and they grab whatever they can get their hands on to fight in melee. As for ranged weapons I'd like to think they'd basically try stoning the enemy to death (count as a pistol ). The really lucky ones might get a hold of an autopistol or improvise a weapon like a flamer (with Sydney's Improvised Weapons rule) and occasionally they loot bodies on the battlefield. We could even put Priests (1:10?) in to drive the flocks, armed with Nueral whips they use to drive the masses forward.

My vision for them is essentially a big tarpit sort of unit. They'd have, as you said, fairly rubbish weapons, but could have high numbers and priest that gives them stubborn to counter that. Their purpose would be to camp objectives, or to hold up dangerous enemies whilst your other units got into position.

I'd also see them recieving a penalty to their leadership if their priest leader died, possibly.

Ld 6 but the Priest has Zealot. Problem solved. Also make Priests like Runt Herders for every X models you need a priest.

MWHistorian wrote:I'm saying that given a combination of historical convents and the fluff GW has written, novices don't see combat.

"Historical convents"? The closest thing we have to the Sisters of Battle is a religious knightly order like the Knights Hospitaller, and their novices actually did accompany them into battles, so if you really want to bring RL history into the discussion this would actually seem to be a point in my favour.
As for the fluff GW has written, you still need to point out where you see a clear contradiction. As it stands, you're just trying to force your interpretation over mine. Opinions, however, do not constitute facts.

MWHistorian wrote:as for the 'hitch a ride to battle' that's even worse. That means you're throwing the novices in the furnace and that's not how its done.

"In the furnace"? We're talking about a trial of fire shortly before many of them would do this on a regular basis. And, as SisterSydney suggested, under (comparatively) controlled circumstances.

MWHistorian wrote:That quote above says "the convent still bustles with new recruits...even when most of the inhabitants are fighting a War of Faith..." That means trainees stay at home.

A good example of selective reading.
The quote says you will always find trainees in the convent. It does not say that this means all of them.

In fact, if *I* would apply selective reading here, I would point to how the quote says "new recruits". Where is the rest?

MWHistorian wrote:They simply don't train enough potential sisters to waste them in expendable rabble units.

You don't know that. All we have is the number of active fully-fledged Battle Sisters. And even this number only encompasses the Major Orders.
Remember all those people who are sceptical of the low SoB numbers, always pointing to how many Scholae there must be, and how many potential recruits they could have? If you really want to believe that such live trials would result in horrific losses (an idea I do not subscribe to), maybe this is part of the solution.

They operate very differently than kinghtly orders. Everything I've read has them operating more like traditional convents. Sending them into combat is never controlled. Once bullets or lasers start flying, all bets are off. There's nothing to say that they do that and everything else to say they don't.

BUT.... seeing as how GW doesn't really tell us much, I have to accept that your opinion is just as valid as mine. Just don't mix up facts. Convents =/= knightly orders. They operate very differently.

But the bit about lasguns still holds. They wouldn't ever use lasguns in combat.

MWHistorian wrote:They operate very differently than kinghtly orders. Everything I've read has them operating more like traditional convents.

What exactly did you read? Are you really saying that the Sisters of Battle are closer to a nun monastery? Like, those nuns that do not go into battle at all? Because they're women?

SoB are "Nuns with Guns", not just nuns. The way I see it - and the way their fluff represents them - they are much more crusaders rather than monks who focus on civilian tasks. The latter is what you have the Non-Militant Orders for.

Honestly, their duties regarding Wars of Faith and protecting pilgrim routes is ripped off straight from the Knights Hospitaller/Templar background.

MWHistorian wrote:But the bit about lasguns still holds. They wouldn't ever use lasguns in combat.

That is your opinion.

 Lynata wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:They operate very differently than kinghtly orders. Everything I've read has them operating more like traditional convents.

What exactly did you read? Are you really saying that the Sisters of Battle are closer to a nun monastery? Like, those nuns that do not go into battle at all? Because they're women?

MWHistorian wrote:But the bit about lasguns still holds. They wouldn't ever use lasguns in combat.

That is your opinion.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They operate very similar to a traditional convent in terms of organization and roles of sisters within the convent. The difference being that they also fight. A monastic knightly order is structurally entirely different. I'm not saying it because 'they're women," but because that's how they work. A knightly order would be more like the Black Templars. Look at the Knights of St. John for a good example of how knightly orders work. Their defense of Malta was epic, btw.

But the part about lasguns isn't opinion, its just how firearms training and military training work. It's like crossing the streams, you just don't do it.

Lasguns =/= Holy Trinity and thus not worthy of the time of a real Adepta Sororita to use.

Seriously, no. Just, no. No novices, no running around with lasguns...just no..

Just ally in Guard instead.


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And that's the last I'm really going to say on it because I just find the idea just too far out there to even give the time of day right now. We'll see this weekend if anything new changes that.

MWHistorian wrote:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They operate very similar to a traditional convent in terms of organization and roles of sisters within the convent. The difference being that they also fight. A monastic knightly order is structurally entirely different. I'm not saying it because 'they're women," but because that's how they work.

I can't say I agree with that. The Orders Militant have military duties - it's even part of their name! Their roles and organisation into military units befit these duties, and whereas the "prayer" part surely can be found in a nunnery as well, it is only in the religious knightly orders that you have the combination of prayer + war.

Also ...

MWHistorian wrote:A knightly order would be more like the Black Templars.

"An interesting example of this is the Adepta Sororitas, an order of devotional warrior women. The Adepta is organised along similar lines to the Space Marines. The Sisterhood, as it is generally known, is led by an Abbess and includes many lesser ranks and officers in a similar way to the Adeptus Astartes."
- 1E Rogue Trader rulebook

Old, but still valid. I for one do not know of a nunnery that organises its Sisters into squads.

ClockworkZion wrote:Lasguns =/= Holy Trinity and thus not worthy of the time of a real Adepta Sororita to use.

But that's the point!
Sometimes I feel like my posts aren't read.

If you feel it's not worthy of a discussion, though, fair enough. We all have our opinions regarding stuff like novices, or those bikes that some of you thought would be cool.

I'm not sure why you insist that their traditional Convent organization cancels out their warlike abilities. It doesn't. You have the abbess that controls her convent in an independent way and is usually the only one that has contact with males from the outside. She has sisters of higher rank below her that deal with the daily operations of the convent and they have sisters below them. That describes historical convents and 40k convents equally well. The SOB just have an additional combat mission to do so they lower sisters are also organized into teams and squads like any other military organization.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Lasguns =/= Holy Trinity and thus not worthy of the time of a real Adepta Sororita to use.

But that's the point!
Sometimes I feel like my posts aren't read.

If you feel it's not worthy of a discussion, though, fair enough. We all have our opinions regarding stuff like novices, or those bikes that some of you thought would be cool.

Here's the thing, you've taken away the Sister's training, her armor, her bolter and let's be frank her you should probably take the faith related things away because she just isn't a Sister yet.

Now what do we have left?

A flippin Guardsman. Even with a 6++ and an Act of Faith you're still looking at a BS3, low Ld, t-shirt armor wearing Guardsmen under another name.

And I don't want to have any part of it.


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If I wanted Guard, I'd play Guard as an army or ally them in. Not stick them in my codex under some lame pretenses.

I just want new models that would be my dream. We can wish list all we want, but I've been wanting to start a Sisters of Battle army for so long. I just can not stomach the price of the army!

MWHistorian wrote:I'm not sure why you insist that their traditional Convent organization cancels out their warlike abilities. It doesn't. You have the abbess that controls her convent in an independent way and is usually the only one that has contact with males from the outside.

Technically, the Abbess isn't the head of a convent, she's the head of the Sisterhood as a whole. This is where the breach with historical convents starts, for apparently they also do not train their own novices on-location, and neither does a nunnery have squads and squad leaders. Honestly, change the name of the Canoness to Grand Master and you've got a knightly order.
The "nun" image is pretty superficial, and I think you're letting yourself being led astray by it. They are crusaders or templars more than they are nuns, for nuns don't go to war, which is a pretty huge difference, and one that defines the Sisters of Battle.

You are also argueing against studio fluff here, but I suppose you're aware of this.

ClockworkZion wrote:Here's the thing, you've taken away the Sister's training, her armor, her bolter and let's be frank her you should probably take the faith related things away because she just isn't a Sister yet. Now what do we have left?

Not her training.
I have repeatedly mentioned how this trial would occur at the end of the novitiate, possibly as an evaluation for who is fit for active duty in the Orders Militant, and who "doesn't cut it".

I guess I just see the Adepta Sororitas being defined more by character and aesthetics than their gear. Power armour and bolters is something that Space Marines have as well.

ShatteredBlade wrote:I just want new models that would be my dream. We can wish list all we want, but I've been wanting to start a Sisters of Battle army for so long. I just can not stomach the price of the army!

How much do you think new minis would cost?
It's not the metal that is the issue. Look at the 10-man box of metal Valhallan or Mordian Iron Guard infantry, then look at the 10-man box of plastic Tactical Space Marines.

Yep, you guessed it - the latter are more expensive...

And yet the Tallarn are randomly the same price, I could never figure that out.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Here's the thing, you've taken away the Sister's training, her armor, her bolter and let's be frank her you should probably take the faith related things away because she just isn't a Sister yet. Now what do we have left?

Not her training.
I have repeatedly mentioned how this trial would occur at the end of the novitiate, possibly as an evaluation for who is fit for active duty in the Orders Militant, and who "doesn't cut it".

I guess I just see the Adepta Sororitas being defined more by character and aesthetics than their gear. Power armour and bolters is something that Space Marines have as well.

Okay, she has her training. Congrats, you're playing Vet Guard.

Do you not see the problem yet? You're stripping away most of what makes Sisters "Sisters" and it just doesn't work for me.

The use of the Holy boltgun, and being clad in power armor things that set Sisters apart from most humans on the table. Being cheap bodies with lasguns and crap to meh armor doesn't set them apart, it doesn't even fill the feeling of them being elite, it just makes them look a unit of female Guard models. We complain that we need to make ourselves different and that there needs to be more unique stuff in our codex in general, so how is sealing Guard statlines helping?


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It just doesn't add anything new, it doesn't seperate Sisters further from anyone and it just feels wrong to me to strip them of what makes them "Sisters". I want bad ass elite humans with the best equipment the church can buy, not another unit that feels like I'm playing Guard.

The only statted-up examples I've seen are significantly different from even Veteran Imperial Guard.

tl;dr
Novices are equal to Veterans in BS and armour, but have an additional 6++ save, better weapons, and better squad leaders & therefore Leadership.

Melissia's fandex (my inspiration for including them in mine):
WS:3 BS:3 Ld:8 Sv:4+/6++
with sniper weapons & Acts of Faith
led by Superior with WS:3 BS:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
so w/ Superior still alive squad has Ld:9

My draft version (which I'm still seeking comment on and may well change):
WS:2 BS:3 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++ (Ld:9 w/ Mistress)
with boltguns, Acts of Faith, and "Sacrificial Lambs" special rule
led by Mistress with WS:3 BS:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
so w/ Mistress still alive squad has Ld:9

Imperial Guard Veterans from 5th edition Codex, using "Grenadiers Doctrine" to upgrade to carapace armour:
WS:3 BS:4 Ld:7 Sv:4+
with lasguns & option to replace 2 soldiers w/ Heavy Weapons Team
led by Sergeant with WS:3 BS:4 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:4+
so w./ Sergeant still alive squad has Ld:8

So while all three have Carapace, the similarity ends there:
- Veterans have no power-armored leader to tank for them
- Veterans have worse Leadership by 1 than either form of Novitiate Squad (though my Novices have Ld:7 without their squad leader, just like Vets -- though I am tempted to change them to Ld:8, now)
- Veterans have the same miserable flashlights as the other Guard, while Melissia's Novices have a form of sniper rifle and mine have boltguns
- Veterans don't have Shield of Faith (6++) or Acts of Faith
- Veterans have better Ballistic Skill than either version of Novices and better Weapons Skill than my version (though I may well up them to WS:3 after reading this discussion)

I'm aware that Lynata's description and picture of a Novice include Lasguns and what appears to be Sv:5+ light armour. While I vehemently agree with Lynata's argument -- based on better canon knowledge than mine -- that Novices would at least sometimes find themselves in combat, I agree with Clockwork that they should be better equipped than Guard.

I think Melissia would hold a very similar opinion. Melissia?

I gave them high-quality autoguns to represent them undergoing training to deal with weapon recoil and weight (including ammunition weight). I do think they'd be better equipped than the Guard at least, even if they're not as well equipped as the Battle Sisters.

Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

Are you thinking of a base template and building stuff in - maybe a bit like the Space Wolves Lone Wolves?

Could be quite interesting to take a single model from your list and Faith it up - whether that be a Cannoness or a lowly Repentia

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

I think it might make Celestine feel less special. I kinda like that, in the current fluff, she seems to be unique, barring third-party examples like Anias or the ones from BL. A generic Living Saint feels like it would "water down" the specialness of Living Saints in general.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Are you thinking of a base template and building stuff in - maybe a bit like the Space Wolves Lone Wolves?

Could be quite interesting to take a single model from your list and Faith it up - whether that be a Cannoness or a lowly Repentia

That was my basic thought, something like a C'Tan shard or a Lone Wolf where you have a fairly set baseline, but can build a few different things with her.

Of course some kind of ability (like how Celestine raises back from the dead) would be in there as a "Must choose one of the following" sort of things.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

I think that's a terrible idea. Throw in another living saint or two as special characters if you like (I'd make Sister Sledge from the Sanctuary 101 battle report one myself) but living saints should never be generic, no more than you should have generic primarchs or generic C'tan.

C'tan are already generic and work this way?

I'd quite like this idea - having Celestine (or an other) turn up everywhere is a bit wierd - I like the idea of a single Sister being divinely inspired now and then - just like Celestine was and others are in the fluff.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

I think that's a terrible idea. Throw in another living saint or two as special characters if you like (I'd make Sister Sledge from the Sanctuary 101 battle report one myself) but living saints should never be generic, no more than you should have generic primarchs or generic C'tan.

I meant Generic as in a "build your own" sort of thing.

And they have C'Tan Shards, those are basically generic C'Tan now.


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 Mr Morden wrote:
C'tan are already generic and work this way?

I'd quite like this idea - having Celestine (or an other) turn up everywhere is a bit wierd - I like the idea of a single Sister being divinely inspired now and then - just like Celestine was and others are in the fluff.

I wasn't suggesting everywhere, at least not fluff wise. Though knowing how bad some players are they would basically end up that way anyways.

Well onto a different topic before someone lynches me:

I once had the idea for sort of holy choir unit that was armed with bolt pistol and burning censors (that they could beat people with in close combat, I mean come on, it's a metal ball at the end of a chain and it's on fire, how is that not awesome). The idea was that they buffed the army through chants, prayers and hymns, creating a kind of bubble effect (say something like units 12" from them) with different abilities each turn as they inspire their Sisters (extra faith points, bonuses to shield of faith, ect). The balance of this was that they couldn't do this if they became broken (until they regrouped) and they were fairly short range in terms on engaging the enemy.

I know it's probably a little silly, but I wanted to toss the idea out there.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this)....

What? People on a web forum reasonably agreeing to disagree? NO! We must descend into personal insults and Hitler comparisons until the entire board is consumed by the fire of insecure narcissists! In the grim darkness of the Internet, there is only FLAME WAR!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
How does everyone feel about generic living saints?...

I actually like this a lot, since I prefer to custom-built (or, err, homebrew) my own characters rather than use existing SCs.

I also like the battle choir that gives buffs.

I think a custom-built Living Saint, allowed to take, say, two abilities off a list (one of which could be EW, that should not be an automatic) with a statline similar to the basic C'Tan Shard (let's face it, that's the closest equivalent unit in Codex crunch, Lone Wolves aren't there yet) would work, especially for campaign games where you're using the same army from game to game, with scenarios based on the campaign narrative. For stand-alone games, it allows you to have a Living Saint that is, perhaps, not the beatstick-tarpit Celestine can be, but can provide other benefits to the army (*especially* if you are playing an Order different from hers!)

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this)....

What? People on a web forum reasonably agreeing to disagree? NO! We must descend into personal insults and Hitler comparisons until the entire board is consumed by the fire of insecure narcissists! In the grim darkness of the Internet, there is only FLAME WAR!

I WILL put you in time out.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
How does everyone feel about generic living saints?...

I actually like this a lot, since I prefer to custom-built (or, err, homebrew) my own characters rather than use existing SCs.

I also like the battle choir that gives buffs.

The "Build-A-Saint Workshop" idea came out of the fact that Celestine isn't the only Living Saint we've had, and everyone has their own ideas of what the others might be like. Besides, we could use some more generic characters to build off of rather than SCs to run our armies with.

The Choir thing was one of those ideas that just made sense. I might try writing rules for them a bit later as they could be lots of fun.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I once had the idea for sort of holy choir unit

Clearly a job for the finest orators in the Adepta Sororitas.

Why? Why would you do such a thing?

ETA: I only *play* SoB.. I, personally, do not hold to the belief that the purpose of life is to suffer.

Huh, build your own saint is actually pretty cool, it won't happen but it is an interesting idea. I am also of the notion that building your own character is great... but what would a standard load-out be for a living saint? I'd imagine it's invuln saves etc... but just spit balling?

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I once had the idea for sort of holy choir unit

Clearly a job for the finest orators in the Adepta Sororitas.

Spoiler:

But what about their burning brass balls?

Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!

The Dialogus model is not only awful, it makes no sense for a Dialogus to be a morale/AOF booster, since they're described in fluff as linguists and decipherers of ancient texts. If one even gets onto the battlefield, it should be to provide some kind of Preferred Enemy buff based on her research into Daemons, Eldar, Astartes or whatever you're facing.

The choir is indeed a very interesting idea. And it could be rolled together with another idea i always had (and i think was in some way already mentioned) - the relic bearer.
Maybe add a single centerpiece model into the choir that carries a holy relic of some sort. The nature of the relic itself could be a way to signify and change (like a wargear) what kind of buff bubble the choir generates. The choir itself are then not only tasked with supporting the troops morally but are also the holy defenders of the relic itself.

And the generic saint is something i would like to see in the future too. But what does make a living saint a living saint? Theoretically every sister that has unmoveable faith and does heroic feats which go beyond human possibilities could become a saint isn't that the case? So there is no specific "mold" for a saint. So why not use it like that. Allow generic HQ choices to "buy" sainthood which gives access to a limited amount of living saint based upgrades as well as a few general boni? (Like buying a terminator armor for space marine HQs)


And my (wip) answer to the dialogus model. (Sorry for the shameless plug ) A bit more noble looking and incorporating more details that suit a linguist/decipherer.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The Dialogus model is not only awful, it makes no sense for a Dialogus to be a morale/AOF booster, since they're described in fluff as linguists and decipherers of ancient texts. If one even gets onto the battlefield, it should be to provide some kind of Preferred Enemy buff based on her research into Daemons, Eldar, Astartes or whatever you're facing.

The way I implemented Dialogus in my list was that a Celestian squad could bring one along as the Daniel Jackson of the group, allowing them to seize objectives as if they were a Troops choice.

Unless you count those dreadful Sandy Mitchell novels and their contradicting fluff.

Or those "Dreadful novels" can actually agree with you.................

"Although most recruits to the Adepta Sororitas are, of course trained at their in their own convents, its by no means unusual to have a Battle Sister or two attached to a schola progenium, since many of the girls taken in by them are likely to feel a calling to join their ranks.They would see to their initial induction , assessing which of the aspirants were best suited to the Ordos Millitant, Hospitaller, Famulous, or what have you and which were better redirected along other paths entirely."

"The bulk of the education provided at a schola progenium is the same whatever branch of Imperial service the student enters, after this was determined in their early teens, the specialised training would begin."

A Typical day:
"A party of youths was down at the firing range, blowing cardboard targets to confetti, under the watchful eye of one of the drill abbots, while over to our left a squad of early adolescents was embarking on a run up one of the nearby mountains, urged on by their proctors. The familiar shape of the black painted truck from the local judiciary making its way up the winding track that lead to our gates, with it weekly delivery of condemned criminals for the interrogation, execution and live fire exercises."

"Like many such institutions, the schlola progenium would have been endowed by the Ecclesiarchy and most of the non-specialist staff drawn from their ranks."

 SisterSydney wrote:
Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!

The Dialogus model is not only awful, it makes no sense for a Dialogus to be a morale/AOF booster, since they're described in fluff as linguists and decipherers of ancient texts. If one even gets onto the battlefield, it should be to provide some kind of Preferred Enemy buff based on her research into Daemons, Eldar, Astartes or whatever you're facing.

See I was thinking they'd have a Thurible and a bolt pistol. They wouldn't need a book because they know all the prayers, cants and hymns they sing by heart.

But that was just my take.

I've seen 40k art depicing Sisters wearing/using thuribles...

 Melissia wrote:
I've seen 40k art depicing Sisters wearing/using thuribles...

The Canoness model has one, even.

 Melissia wrote:
I've seen 40k art depicing Sisters wearing/using thuribles...

I think it could make for a fun melee weapon.

Hmm... hits at I, an unsaved Wound causes a -1 to BS on all models within 3", but also grants them a +1 Cover Save, both due to smoke?

 Psienesis wrote:
Hmm... hits at I, an unsaved Wound causes a -1 to BS on all models within 3", but also grants them a +1 Cover Save, both due to smoke?

Blind test if hit, and gives them +1 cover due to smoke?

That could work, too.

Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

I... seem to be drawing a blank on that one?


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Oh! The Brazier! Duh...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

That sounds... uncomfortable.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

That sounds... uncomfortable.

The purpose of life is to suffer, after all...

Ah yes the Brassiere of Holy Fire, second in important only to the Garter Belt of Large Inward Turned Spikes!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

Now that was a CCW that doubled as a combi-flamer IIRC. I'll have to check my codex when I get home to know for sure.

I'll have to check my codex when I get home

Why does that suddenly read like a euphemism?

 Psienesis wrote:

I'll have to check my codex when I get home

Why does that suddenly read like a euphemism?

Because your mind is in the gutter and you need to go stand in the corner until it isn't.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!...

See I was thinking they'd have a Thurible and a bolt pistol. They wouldn't need a book because they know all the prayers, cants and hymns they sing by heart.

But that was just my take.

No, your idea is more awesome. So they're close combatant liturgists... which is so utterly in keeping with the Sisters.

I'm now seeing them more as being attached to a squad -- like an IG commissar (which is how i think Hospitallers should work to, actually) - rather than as a whole unit on their own, especially since in the church services I've seen you rarely have more than one thurifer in the procession.

Here we go:

Brazier of Holy Fire wrote:
This holy artefact is said to light the faces of the faithful and leave the impure shrouded in darkness. In battle, the brazier can be wielded like a weapon in close combat and contains enough fuel to spray a jet of flames at the enemy. The Brazier of Holy Fire counts as a close combat weapon. In addition, it may be used once per battle like a flamer. All of the normal rules for a flamer apply.

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 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!...

See I was thinking they'd have a Thurible and a bolt pistol. They wouldn't need a book because they know all the prayers, cants and hymns they sing by heart.

But that was just my take.

No, your idea is more awesome. So they're close combatant liturgists... which is so utterly in keeping with the Sisters.

I'm now seeing them more as being attached to a squad -- like an IG commissar (which is how i think Hospitallers should work to, actually) - rather than as a whole unit on their own, especially since in the church services I've seen you rarely have more than one thurifer in the procession.

That depends on the size of the procession, and when the Ecclesiarchy goes to war I image there can be a lot of them (hell we have them all over the place as is anyways ).

Yeah, that would be the elite version on the Melee Weapons list for Superiors etc. Your basic "battle thurible" would probably be some mind of strength-boosting, initiative-dropping CCW without the once-per-game flamer attack. (Um, does that make the Brazier a Combi-Thurible?)

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, that would be the elite version on the Melee Weapons list for Superiors etc. Your basic "battle thurible" would probably be some mind of strength-boosting, initiative-dropping CCW without the once-per-game flamer attack. (Um, does that make the Brazier a Combi-Thurible?)

We were looking at the Thurible giving a +1 Cover save and causing the unit hit with it to suffer a Blind check as the cloud of incense blocks their vision. A bit different than a CCW with Combi-Flamer attachment I think.

Again, that's cooler than my idea. Awesome.

I haven't really nailed down a good list of buffs from the Choir yet, so that's still a ways off, but yeah, Thuribles and holy music/chants seem appropriate.

Besides, weaponizing something that is found in a church (see the Exorcist) is COMPLETELY in the realm of what Sisters do.


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And then I remember this is game with Baledrakes, Hellhounds (and their poisonous counterparts) and other nasty cover denial options out there. D:

Sorry, old DnD joke.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I haven't really nailed down a good list of buffs from the Choir yet, so that's still a ways off, but yeah, Thuribles and holy music/chants seem appropriate.

Besides, weaponizing something that is found in a church (see the Exorcist) is COMPLETELY in the realm of what Sisters do.


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And then I remember this is game with Baledrakes, Hellhounds (and their poisonous counterparts) and other nasty cover denial options out there. D:

True, pretty much every army has at least some kind of Template weapon -- and it takes a heck of a cover save to be a better option than taking your 3+ cover save, unless the enemy has a lot of AP:2.

How about treating it as a Power Maul with the added traits of Two-Handed, Concussive and Blind, to represent the swirling smoke of a successful hit obscuring the vision of the target unit?

The Sisters aren't affected because (1) it's holy smoke that only blinds unbelievers and (2) they've tuned their optics to see through it, just the way modern militaries don't jam the wavelengths they're using themselves.

Then a +1 cover save vs shooting can be the cherry on top.


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PS: +1 to cover save should only be if the bearer forgoes shooting that turn to swing it around.

Also, I realize this is starting to look more and more like a Melee weapon for Superiors, Priests, & above.

You know you swing a Thurible while you walk, so there is no reason it'd have to be "activated" every turn. Even if you stand still, this is a game where people often wield bolters one handed to no ill effect.

I'm by no means very qualified to suggest things here, but I was pondering the recruits discussion that had been going on, and I was wondering what you guys thought about having a mixed sisters squad with battle sisters evaluating recruits in the field as a final form of test.

I'm thinking of a unit that functions similar to the BT crusader squads but with more of the Judge Dredd eval thrown in there ("you do any number of things wrong, you fail...and probably die") instead of the pledging frat boy feel I get from crusader squads.

Maybe make it 0-1 troops choice 10-20 models (20-30? Seems unwieldy) and you can't take more sisters than recruits and vice versa. Give the recruits carapace armor and make their stats the same with lower leadership and possibly lower WS. Basically representing that this is the final test, and they're pretty much trained up at this point but they haven't seen the full horrors of the galaxy yet.

Nope. Still don't like the idea. Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars. Yeeeeaah. I'm not a fan.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nope. Still don't like the idea. Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars. Yeeeeaah. I'm not a fan.

Yeah, I kind of figured that copying other armies wouldn't be encouraged.

What were the troops choices back in the day? I don't like the limited troops options sisters have now.

godswildcard wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nope. Still don't like the idea. Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars. Yeeeeaah. I'm not a fan.

Yeah, I kind of figured that copying other armies wouldn't be encouraged.

What were the troops choices back in the day? I don't like the limited troops options sisters have now.

You're basically looking at them. We had a period where we had Storm Troopers when the Inquisition was in the book (along with some other stuff) but if you go back further we've always been a bit of small codex in terms of selection.

I've got my fingers crossed for their eventual update fixing that though.

I always imagined the novitiates on the battlefield either being used in desperate defenses (when they'd die anyway if the line was breached), or being given a "trial by fire" as part of the final rite to earn the right to be a full fledged Battle Sister.

 Melissia wrote:
I always imagined the novitiates on the battlefield either being used in desperate defenses (when they'd die anyway if the line was breached), or being given a "trial by fire" as part of the final rite to earn the right to be a full fledged Battle Sister.

The thing that bugs me is that they aren't assigned an Order until after they're given their power armor and hold their ceremony on Terra. So who exactly would give them a "trial by fire"? Seems like an unnecessary step and complication to a fairly straightforward career path otherwise.

But getting beyond that, from what little we can tell, unless the new codex changes that, it seems Sisters all go through Ophelia VII or Terra for their training, so unless one of those is attacked there isn't a reason for them to be fielded either.

Like I said, we'll know more at the end of the week (if it ever gets here).

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I haven't really nailed down a good list of buffs from the Choir yet, so that's still a ways off, but yeah, Thuribles and holy music/chants seem appropriate.

Besides, weaponizing something that is found in a church (see the Exorcist) is COMPLETELY in the realm of what Sisters do.


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And then I remember this is game with Baledrakes, Hellhounds (and their poisonous counterparts) and other nasty cover denial options out there. D:

True, pretty much every army has at least some kind of Template weapon -- and it takes a heck of a cover save to be a better option than taking your 3+ cover save, unless the enemy has a lot of AP:2.

How about treating it as a Power Maul with the added traits of Two-Handed, Concussive and Blind, to represent the swirling smoke of a successful hit obscuring the vision of the target unit?

The Sisters aren't affected because (1) it's holy smoke that only blinds unbelievers and (2) they've tuned their optics to see through it, just the way modern militaries don't jam the wavelengths they're using themselves.

Then a +1 cover save vs shooting can be the cherry on top.


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PS: +1 to cover save should only be if the bearer forgoes shooting that turn to swing it around.

Also, I realize this is starting to look more and more like a Melee weapon for Superiors, Priests, & above.

Power mauls are already concussive, so you don't need to add that.

For a non-HQ version, I'd go with S+2, AP- concussive, blind, 1-shot flamer CC weapon. You trade the maul's AP4 for blind and the flame hit. Cost should probably be close, might be 5-10 points more, then a power weapon. Specialist/two handed would depend on the modeling behind it, and might knock the price down. Not getting an extra attack from your BP is a disad.

If you want to go with a holy relic, HQ only kind of weapons you can pull the stops out and go crazy.
S+2, AP4. Concussive, Blind, grants user (and thus her unit) stealth. One shot (heavy?) flamer. I'd go with specialist, rather then two handed. Not sure if you have anything else to pair it with, but it leaves the door open.

You could layer more on if you don't mind the points skyrocketing. AP3, shrouded rather then stealth, or a pure one-handed weapon. Soulfire, or whatever that catch-on-fire power is, would also be appropriate.

Hmmm. Good catch on Concussive. I'd like to keep the "battle thurifer" and the Brazier of Holy Fire separate, though, so one's a censer full of smoke that blinds and the other is a censer full of fire that burns, because awesome.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I always imagined the novitiates on the battlefield either being used in desperate defenses (when they'd die anyway if the line was breached), or being given a "trial by fire" as part of the final rite to earn the right to be a full fledged Battle Sister.

The thing that bugs me is that they aren't assigned an Order until after they're given their power armor and hold their ceremony on Terra. So who exactly would give them a "trial by fire"? Seems like an unnecessary step and complication to a fairly straightforward career path otherwise.

But getting beyond that, from what little we can tell, unless the new codex changes that, it seems Sisters all go through Ophelia VII or Terra for their training, so unless one of those is attacked there isn't a reason for them to be fielded either.

The Imperium's in a bad state.... Even if Novice training is centralized on Ophelia and Terra (logistically difficult but not impossible), the Segmentum Solar itself has come under attack, and if you want to get really "Last Days of Rome" or "Blue Vs. Green in Byzantium," you could end up with factional fighting between different Imperial institutions on Terra, or even between Ecclesiarchical factions on Ophelia.

Imperium is in a bad state, but it's by no means THAT bad.

It's a stagnant corrupt mess trying to push through another day, but it's still there.

You say the Sementum Solar itself came under attack, do you mean the Heresy, or some post event I haven't heard about?

And I really feel your stretching on how bad it is in the Imperium. This isn't the last week of Rome, it's 2 minutes to midnight on the Doomsday clock, and it's locked there. If you think the Imperium is bad now, consider this:

They have standing militaries (Guard and Marines), trade between hundreds of thousands of planets, a working communication system (even if it's a bit slow, Astropaths do the job nicely), a means of travelling relatively safely though the galaxy thanks to Navagators, a church that is actually held accountable for corruption and so many damned citizens they can't even count them all.

I don't think they're doing -that badly-. Yes, there are planets under constant war, and there are invasions a thousand times over, but that's what happens here on our little dustball all the time. It's just magnified to 1,000% because of the scale of the setting.

But maybe I'm too optimistic, or I just don't feel like being a contortionist to make my ideas fit the limited fluff we have. Either way, I don't agree with the whole "let's put our knock off vet guard on the table and call them novices instead of working out other ideas".

Frateris Militia, Zealots and Redemptionists all did the cheap troop idea better, and were more original. They fit the theme better and worked for the setting more. They played up the grim dark nature of the universe without us needing to be yet another faction who throws our trainees through a threshing machine to make them "prove themselves".

Agreed if they still had the moulds they should have just done the Frateris Militia / Redemptionists as a Troops

Maybe they will - crossed fingers

 Mr Morden wrote:
Agreed if they still had the moulds they should have just done the Frateris Militia / Redemptionists as a Troops

Maybe they will - crossed fingers

IIRC GW has all the masters to all the models they've ever made on "file", unless they purged them like the BBC did old Docotr Who episodes that is.

Outside of that it's not like we can't convert stuff. Like I've mentioned before, the Flagellant mob looks like a good basis.

Yeah, but it'd be nice to be official - I still have my Redemptionist gang .

But yeah cross selling would have been easy with the Empire models etc...........

godswildcard wrote:
I'm by no means very qualified to suggest things here, but I was pondering the recruits discussion that had been going on, and I was wondering what you guys thought about having a mixed sisters squad with battle sisters evaluating recruits in the field as a final form of test.

I'm thinking of a unit that functions similar to the BT crusader squads but with more of the Judge Dredd eval thrown in there ("you do any number of things wrong, you fail...and probably die") instead of the pledging frat boy feel I get from crusader squads.

Maybe make it 0-1 troops choice 10-20 models (20-30? Seems unwieldy) and you can't take more sisters than recruits and vice versa. Give the recruits carapace armor and make their stats the same with lower leadership and possibly lower WS. Basically representing that this is the final test, and they're pretty much trained up at this point but they haven't seen the full horrors of the galaxy yet.

Fluff-wise, I like the idea... crunch-wise, I'm not so sure...

Are you meaning that this unit is a mix of Sisters and Novices or that you can have no more Novices in the Army than you do Battle Sisters? So if you took the 20-girl unit you'd have to have no fewer than 4 squads of 5 Sisters each in the rest of the Army? Or the 20 model mob can be no more than 10 Novices with 10 Sisters?

If the balance works in reverse, this is basically cutting the army in half, and I'm not sure I like that. Why couldn't there be more Sisters than Novices? What if this battle on the tabletop is one of the training centers being attacked? Or the transport from training planet to Terra for final vows is forced to drop out of the Warp en route (Gellar Field failure) and is ambushed by Dark Eldar raiders? In either event, I can see arguments being made to support having more Novices than Sisters, or more Sisters than Novices.

He means that in that squad, there have to be more Sisters than Novices, just like the BT Crusader squads have to have more Initiates than Novices.

Armageddon is in Segmentum Solar.

More to the point, the Sol system itself has been attacked by the Necrons, who managed to land a ship on Mars, and by a combined force of Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks and Soul Drinkers during the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.

Hrm.... I don't play BT so I'm not familiar with how those squads work, but I would think blending those various armor and stat saves might get a bit cumbersome to gameplay, especially considering having varying WS and Ld to the squad.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
He means that in that squad, there have to be more Sisters than Novices, just like the BT Crusader squads have to have more Initiates than Novices.

Armageddon is in Segmentum Solar.

More to the point, the Sol system itself has been attacked by the Necrons, who managed to land a ship on Mars, and by a combined force of Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks and Soul Drinkers during the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.

I apologize for forgetting about where Armageddon is. I don't recall a second seige on the Emperor's Palace though, which conflict was this? If you mean the Reign of Blood, that was an Ecclesiarchal palace which is not the same as the Emperor's Palace.

Even with this in mind there hasn't really been enough to say the Imperium is that screwed, yet. We know the Golden Throne is failing, and that really is the lynchpin on what will happen to the Imperium honestly, but we the timeline is right now I don't see Novices being deployed right now. To me at least the idea doesn't jive with hos I see the Sisters normally work.

And how "elite" can we claim to be as a human army that just throws recruits into the middle of wars? Because to really be putting them on the table that's basically what we're representing: putting our traininess, of which there is an insanely small nmber into the thressing machine that is war. I don't see this as a "good thing" for the Sisterhood to be doing honestly.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Hrm.... I don't play BT so I'm not familiar with how those squads work, but I would think blending those various armor and stat saves might get a bit cumbersome to gameplay, especially considering having varying WS and Ld to the squad.

You always use the highest leadership unless something forces you to use a lower one. That said, I've already voiced my opinion about us further borrowing from the Marines with these things, much less borrowing from the chapter who keeps borrowing elements from us.

Blending the armour saves is easy under new wound allocation rules. I still don't like the unit much though, A) because it rips off the Templars, and B) because we don't need yoofs.

ClockworkZion wrote:Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars.

Not that I'm argueing in favour of that idea, but technically ... as opposed to what, ripping of Vanilla Marines?

The funny thing about the Templar Neophytes is that the BT supposedly have a very good relationship with the Sisters, and using their Scouts as "squires" in a Marine squad is a pretty big deviation from the Codex Astartes. What if they actually got this idea from the Sororitas?

Just throwing it out there. It's not really worth debating if Novices are generally unwanted, of course.

Sure, but not every tabletop battle represents the "business as usual" engagement for the army in question. Providing these Novices as an optional troop allows the player to depict an end-of-times or desperate-measures battle.

Maybe in their local campaigns, the Minor Orders are responsible for training the Novices that show the most aptitude for their particular style of combat, and so these squads provide something for those players to use as an option, rather than having to house-rule in IG squads or whatever.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars.

Not that I'm argueing in favour of that idea, but technically ... as opposed to what, ripping of Vanilla Marines?

Since Templars are now Vanilla, is there a difference really, or are we splitting hairs?

We share plenty with Marines, and that's fine, but I really think Sisters need to go their own way now instead of sharing MORE with Marines.