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 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Here's the thing, you've taken away the Sister's training, her armor, her bolter and let's be frank her you should probably take the faith related things away because she just isn't a Sister yet. Now what do we have left?

Not her training.
I have repeatedly mentioned how this trial would occur at the end of the novitiate, possibly as an evaluation for who is fit for active duty in the Orders Militant, and who "doesn't cut it".

I guess I just see the Adepta Sororitas being defined more by character and aesthetics than their gear. Power armour and bolters is something that Space Marines have as well.

Okay, she has her training. Congrats, you're playing Vet Guard.

Do you not see the problem yet? You're stripping away most of what makes Sisters "Sisters" and it just doesn't work for me.

The use of the Holy boltgun, and being clad in power armor things that set Sisters apart from most humans on the table. Being cheap bodies with lasguns and crap to meh armor doesn't set them apart, it doesn't even fill the feeling of them being elite, it just makes them look a unit of female Guard models. We complain that we need to make ourselves different and that there needs to be more unique stuff in our codex in general, so how is sealing Guard statlines helping?


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It just doesn't add anything new, it doesn't seperate Sisters further from anyone and it just feels wrong to me to strip them of what makes them "Sisters". I want bad ass elite humans with the best equipment the church can buy, not another unit that feels like I'm playing Guard.

The only statted-up examples I've seen are significantly different from even Veteran Imperial Guard.

tl;dr
Novices are equal to Veterans in BS and armour, but have an additional 6++ save, better weapons, and better squad leaders & therefore Leadership.

Melissia's fandex (my inspiration for including them in mine):
WS:3 BS:3 Ld:8 Sv:4+/6++
with sniper weapons & Acts of Faith
led by Superior with WS:3 BS:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
so w/ Superior still alive squad has Ld:9

My draft version (which I'm still seeking comment on and may well change):
WS:2 BS:3 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++ (Ld:9 w/ Mistress)
with boltguns, Acts of Faith, and "Sacrificial Lambs" special rule
led by Mistress with WS:3 BS:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
so w/ Mistress still alive squad has Ld:9

Imperial Guard Veterans from 5th edition Codex, using "Grenadiers Doctrine" to upgrade to carapace armour:
WS:3 BS:4 Ld:7 Sv:4+
with lasguns & option to replace 2 soldiers w/ Heavy Weapons Team
led by Sergeant with WS:3 BS:4 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:4+
so w./ Sergeant still alive squad has Ld:8

So while all three have Carapace, the similarity ends there:
- Veterans have no power-armored leader to tank for them
- Veterans have worse Leadership by 1 than either form of Novitiate Squad (though my Novices have Ld:7 without their squad leader, just like Vets -- though I am tempted to change them to Ld:8, now)
- Veterans have the same miserable flashlights as the other Guard, while Melissia's Novices have a form of sniper rifle and mine have boltguns
- Veterans don't have Shield of Faith (6++) or Acts of Faith
- Veterans have better Ballistic Skill than either version of Novices and better Weapons Skill than my version (though I may well up them to WS:3 after reading this discussion)

I'm aware that Lynata's description and picture of a Novice include Lasguns and what appears to be Sv:5+ light armour. While I vehemently agree with Lynata's argument -- based on better canon knowledge than mine -- that Novices would at least sometimes find themselves in combat, I agree with Clockwork that they should be better equipped than Guard.

I think Melissia would hold a very similar opinion. Melissia?

I gave them high-quality autoguns to represent them undergoing training to deal with weapon recoil and weight (including ammunition weight). I do think they'd be better equipped than the Guard at least, even if they're not as well equipped as the Battle Sisters.

Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

Are you thinking of a base template and building stuff in - maybe a bit like the Space Wolves Lone Wolves?

Could be quite interesting to take a single model from your list and Faith it up - whether that be a Cannoness or a lowly Repentia

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

I think it might make Celestine feel less special. I kinda like that, in the current fluff, she seems to be unique, barring third-party examples like Anias or the ones from BL. A generic Living Saint feels like it would "water down" the specialness of Living Saints in general.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Are you thinking of a base template and building stuff in - maybe a bit like the Space Wolves Lone Wolves?

Could be quite interesting to take a single model from your list and Faith it up - whether that be a Cannoness or a lowly Repentia

That was my basic thought, something like a C'Tan shard or a Lone Wolf where you have a fairly set baseline, but can build a few different things with her.

Of course some kind of ability (like how Celestine raises back from the dead) would be in there as a "Must choose one of the following" sort of things.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

I think that's a terrible idea. Throw in another living saint or two as special characters if you like (I'd make Sister Sledge from the Sanctuary 101 battle report one myself) but living saints should never be generic, no more than you should have generic primarchs or generic C'tan.

C'tan are already generic and work this way?

I'd quite like this idea - having Celestine (or an other) turn up everywhere is a bit wierd - I like the idea of a single Sister being divinely inspired now and then - just like Celestine was and others are in the fluff.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this). How does everyone feel about generic living saints? I know we've got fluff saying they're fairly rare but really I've always thought it could be a great representation of a Sister who seems to have tapped into a higher power and her fellow Sisters are following her.

Thoughts?

I think that's a terrible idea. Throw in another living saint or two as special characters if you like (I'd make Sister Sledge from the Sanctuary 101 battle report one myself) but living saints should never be generic, no more than you should have generic primarchs or generic C'tan.

I meant Generic as in a "build your own" sort of thing.

And they have C'Tan Shards, those are basically generic C'Tan now.


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 Mr Morden wrote:
C'tan are already generic and work this way?

I'd quite like this idea - having Celestine (or an other) turn up everywhere is a bit wierd - I like the idea of a single Sister being divinely inspired now and then - just like Celestine was and others are in the fluff.

I wasn't suggesting everywhere, at least not fluff wise. Though knowing how bad some players are they would basically end up that way anyways.

Well onto a different topic before someone lynches me:

I once had the idea for sort of holy choir unit that was armed with bolt pistol and burning censors (that they could beat people with in close combat, I mean come on, it's a metal ball at the end of a chain and it's on fire, how is that not awesome). The idea was that they buffed the army through chants, prayers and hymns, creating a kind of bubble effect (say something like units 12" from them) with different abilities each turn as they inspire their Sisters (extra faith points, bonuses to shield of faith, ect). The balance of this was that they couldn't do this if they became broken (until they regrouped) and they were fairly short range in terms on engaging the enemy.

I know it's probably a little silly, but I wanted to toss the idea out there.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this)....

What? People on a web forum reasonably agreeing to disagree? NO! We must descend into personal insults and Hitler comparisons until the entire board is consumed by the fire of insecure narcissists! In the grim darkness of the Internet, there is only FLAME WAR!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
How does everyone feel about generic living saints?...

I actually like this a lot, since I prefer to custom-built (or, err, homebrew) my own characters rather than use existing SCs.

I also like the battle choir that gives buffs.

I think a custom-built Living Saint, allowed to take, say, two abilities off a list (one of which could be EW, that should not be an automatic) with a statline similar to the basic C'Tan Shard (let's face it, that's the closest equivalent unit in Codex crunch, Lone Wolves aren't there yet) would work, especially for campaign games where you're using the same army from game to game, with scenarios based on the campaign narrative. For stand-alone games, it allows you to have a Living Saint that is, perhaps, not the beatstick-tarpit Celestine can be, but can provide other benefits to the army (*especially* if you are playing an Order different from hers!)

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Moving onto a different topic (as it appears neither side will budge the other on this)....

What? People on a web forum reasonably agreeing to disagree? NO! We must descend into personal insults and Hitler comparisons until the entire board is consumed by the fire of insecure narcissists! In the grim darkness of the Internet, there is only FLAME WAR!

I WILL put you in time out.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
How does everyone feel about generic living saints?...

I actually like this a lot, since I prefer to custom-built (or, err, homebrew) my own characters rather than use existing SCs.

I also like the battle choir that gives buffs.

The "Build-A-Saint Workshop" idea came out of the fact that Celestine isn't the only Living Saint we've had, and everyone has their own ideas of what the others might be like. Besides, we could use some more generic characters to build off of rather than SCs to run our armies with.

The Choir thing was one of those ideas that just made sense. I might try writing rules for them a bit later as they could be lots of fun.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I once had the idea for sort of holy choir unit

Clearly a job for the finest orators in the Adepta Sororitas.

Why? Why would you do such a thing?

ETA: I only *play* SoB.. I, personally, do not hold to the belief that the purpose of life is to suffer.

Huh, build your own saint is actually pretty cool, it won't happen but it is an interesting idea. I am also of the notion that building your own character is great... but what would a standard load-out be for a living saint? I'd imagine it's invuln saves etc... but just spit balling?

 Troike wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I once had the idea for sort of holy choir unit

Clearly a job for the finest orators in the Adepta Sororitas.

Spoiler:

But what about their burning brass balls?

Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!

The Dialogus model is not only awful, it makes no sense for a Dialogus to be a morale/AOF booster, since they're described in fluff as linguists and decipherers of ancient texts. If one even gets onto the battlefield, it should be to provide some kind of Preferred Enemy buff based on her research into Daemons, Eldar, Astartes or whatever you're facing.

The choir is indeed a very interesting idea. And it could be rolled together with another idea i always had (and i think was in some way already mentioned) - the relic bearer.
Maybe add a single centerpiece model into the choir that carries a holy relic of some sort. The nature of the relic itself could be a way to signify and change (like a wargear) what kind of buff bubble the choir generates. The choir itself are then not only tasked with supporting the troops morally but are also the holy defenders of the relic itself.

And the generic saint is something i would like to see in the future too. But what does make a living saint a living saint? Theoretically every sister that has unmoveable faith and does heroic feats which go beyond human possibilities could become a saint isn't that the case? So there is no specific "mold" for a saint. So why not use it like that. Allow generic HQ choices to "buy" sainthood which gives access to a limited amount of living saint based upgrades as well as a few general boni? (Like buying a terminator armor for space marine HQs)


And my (wip) answer to the dialogus model. (Sorry for the shameless plug ) A bit more noble looking and incorporating more details that suit a linguist/decipherer.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The Dialogus model is not only awful, it makes no sense for a Dialogus to be a morale/AOF booster, since they're described in fluff as linguists and decipherers of ancient texts. If one even gets onto the battlefield, it should be to provide some kind of Preferred Enemy buff based on her research into Daemons, Eldar, Astartes or whatever you're facing.

The way I implemented Dialogus in my list was that a Celestian squad could bring one along as the Daniel Jackson of the group, allowing them to seize objectives as if they were a Troops choice.

Unless you count those dreadful Sandy Mitchell novels and their contradicting fluff.

Or those "Dreadful novels" can actually agree with you.................

"Although most recruits to the Adepta Sororitas are, of course trained at their in their own convents, its by no means unusual to have a Battle Sister or two attached to a schola progenium, since many of the girls taken in by them are likely to feel a calling to join their ranks.They would see to their initial induction , assessing which of the aspirants were best suited to the Ordos Millitant, Hospitaller, Famulous, or what have you and which were better redirected along other paths entirely."

"The bulk of the education provided at a schola progenium is the same whatever branch of Imperial service the student enters, after this was determined in their early teens, the specialised training would begin."

A Typical day:
"A party of youths was down at the firing range, blowing cardboard targets to confetti, under the watchful eye of one of the drill abbots, while over to our left a squad of early adolescents was embarking on a run up one of the nearby mountains, urged on by their proctors. The familiar shape of the black painted truck from the local judiciary making its way up the winding track that lead to our gates, with it weekly delivery of condemned criminals for the interrogation, execution and live fire exercises."

"Like many such institutions, the schlola progenium would have been endowed by the Ecclesiarchy and most of the non-specialist staff drawn from their ranks."

 SisterSydney wrote:
Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!

The Dialogus model is not only awful, it makes no sense for a Dialogus to be a morale/AOF booster, since they're described in fluff as linguists and decipherers of ancient texts. If one even gets onto the battlefield, it should be to provide some kind of Preferred Enemy buff based on her research into Daemons, Eldar, Astartes or whatever you're facing.

See I was thinking they'd have a Thurible and a bolt pistol. They wouldn't need a book because they know all the prayers, cants and hymns they sing by heart.

But that was just my take.

I've seen 40k art depicing Sisters wearing/using thuribles...

 Melissia wrote:
I've seen 40k art depicing Sisters wearing/using thuribles...

The Canoness model has one, even.

 Melissia wrote:
I've seen 40k art depicing Sisters wearing/using thuribles...

I think it could make for a fun melee weapon.

Hmm... hits at I, an unsaved Wound causes a -1 to BS on all models within 3", but also grants them a +1 Cover Save, both due to smoke?

 Psienesis wrote:
Hmm... hits at I, an unsaved Wound causes a -1 to BS on all models within 3", but also grants them a +1 Cover Save, both due to smoke?

Blind test if hit, and gives them +1 cover due to smoke?

That could work, too.

Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

I... seem to be drawing a blank on that one?


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Oh! The Brazier! Duh...