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ClockworkZio wrote:When it comes to the Sisters Boltgun I always assumed that perhaps the recoil issue is handled by using a lower powder charge to get the slug moving as it's real strength is from the secondary firing (gyrojets) which seem to have a time-delayed fuse, and the explosiveness of the round itself. A lower powder charge could compensate for the recoil without sacrificing killing power.

Yeah. I never considered recoil to be of much trouble to anyone, actually - in GW's material the main issue was always the weight, and the 2E Wargear book flat out states the projectile leaves the barrel "at low velocity". Together with Stalker shells supposedly travelling at subsonic speeds, this just makes me think a bolter would have no more recoil than a shotgun, and this is before you add technological solutions such as the "blast compensator" from the 3E rulebook's bolter schematic. You can shoot a contemporary AA12 shotgun in full auto single-handedly, thanks to the magic of recoil compensation.
What Codex fluff points out again and again, however, is how much bolt weapons weigh, given that they are very sturdy and large weapons firing rather big munitions. Even if the body were of some advanced plastic (like the German G36), lots of parts including the huge and thick barrel would still be metal. And the magazine alone must be quite heavy!

SisterSydney wrote:I had another '80s movie in mind for Novices: Aliens. Remember Private Vasquez's awesome smart gun rig?

Hah. On that note, did you ever notice the exoskeleton and mechanised hand of the Retributor/"Heavy" Sisters?





It's a curious detail!

(also an awesome paintjob the guy did - you can nicely see the fibre-webbed "undersuit" over which the armour plates are worn)

SisterSydney wrote:Battle Sisters seem to be fully qualified with bolters as soon as they get their power armor. (Maybe not BS4, maybe that's the squad average, but qualified). Training with autoguns, shotguns, let alone recoiless las guns ain't gonna get you there.

That's why I think they'd train with all of them - but not be allowed to "own" a bolter until proven worthy!

But yeah, of course it's just a matter of interpretation, and I'm certainly not saying my headcanon is better than yours. We're all just throwing around ideas here, after all.

From experiance, the best weapons training results come from putting it in their hands on day 1 and training them on it regularly. Make them carry it everywhere, grow attached to it, bond with it, learn it's every curve, scratch and quirk.

That's what is being done by real militaries and the people who train this way are better shots, more conscious about not "flagging" their buddies and generally more comfortable with the weapon.

I can see the Sisters doing the same thing. Perhaps going as far as the bolter their issued is theirs until death (if they take the Vow of Repentance I'd then assume it's held for them in hopes they return "forgiven").

But that's my mixing of head canon and real life experience.

Now as for weight, the Sisters Bolters look to be scaled down from the larger Marine ones. I assume they also employ a smaller magazine as well, requiring more reloading as well.

Now considering that, it seems to be fairly in scale, with the bearer and is only roughly as little wider than they are, Infact, this image gives us a good sense of what the scale of the weapon should be:


So based on that image, the Bolter is roughly the size of a carbine or maybe a bullpup (or even one of the larger SMGs out there) in length, but a bit taller, and with more housing than our weapons typically do. Now if it were solid metal the heat wouldn't disperse efficiently and it'd cook off rounds, so that large body is likely mostly a heat shroud with some ventilation built in to prevent that issue.

Based on that I'd say the Bolter the Sisters uses is more likely in the weight range of a loaded M16 or Ak-47 (in that order): 3.6 kg (7.9 lb)- 4.78 kg (10.5 lb).

Now the real factor for them would be endurance. And the power armor would assist in keeping their aim truer (as when fatigue sets in, so does shaking) as well as making the weight be less of a problem.

As for the Heavy Bolter, it's fairly stubby, but even with the thick barrel it can't be a solid object (as covered above). If I had to guess that the extra servo harness likely gives them the ability to fight weapon climb as something that powerful would become an AA weapon without some kind of way to keep it from climbing. Additionally it'd be a lot of long term strain on the arms, especially since they don't use any kind of sling to distribute the weight backwards. I'd likely class it as being around as heavy as a M2 Browning without the tripod which clocks in at 38 kg (83.78 lb). I figure that despite being a good couple feet shorter, the thicker barrel and heavier firing mechanism likely make up the difference.

So in that case you really would need some kind of power armor with strength enhancement to carry it around for long periods of time and use it effectively.

But that's just my take on it.

ClockworkZion wrote:From experiance, the best weapons training results come from putting it in their hands on day 1 and training them on it regularly. Make them carry it everywhere, grow attached to it, bond with it, learn it's every curve, scratch and quirk.

Yes, but the thing is that quite a large number of Novices won't even end up in the Orders Militant - the selection doesn't happen until the end of their novitiate, and a Sister Hospitaller rarely uses a bolter. Besides, "day 1" would include the many years of Schola training, where a progena has a much higher chance of becoming, say, an Arbitrator or an Imperial Guard NCO.
I also like to see the Sororitas as capable of improvising on military matters, though... there was a bit in the old Sororitas fluff bible about young Sisters training to use not only the holy trinity, but also las weapons and even autorifles, just in case they'd ever have need of these skills.

ClockworkZion wrote:Now as for weight, the Sisters Bolters look to be scaled down from the larger Marine ones. I assume they also employ a smaller magazine as well, requiring more reloading as well.

That's my thinking as well, actually. They both utilise the same ammunition, though, so the basic internals need to be the same. I like to rationalise it as the Marine version having a sort of armoured casing, allowing it to better resist the stress of close combat. For example, in the heat of the moment, a Marine may use their bolter as a club, or even just have the weapon catch a bit of brick as they break through a wall. Smaller models may well miss this additional plating, and are thus somewhat less able to cope with battlefield conditions. The cross section from the 3E rulebook also hints at a ton of gadgets - such as a "self-repair circuit" - that smaller bolters may be missing. Conveniently, this last bit would imitate how Sororitas power armour behaves to its related and just as protective, but much bulkier Astartes counterpart.

For magazines, the size differences would also explain how sickle magazines are said to hold "between 20 and 30 rounds", probably with ~30 being for the Marine version and ~20 for the smaller ones.

ClockworkZion wrote:Now the real factor for them would be endurance. And the power armor would assist in keeping their aim truer (as when fatigue sets in, so does shaking) as well as making the weight be less of a problem.

Agreed! But since Novices don't have PA yet ...

ClockworkZion wrote:As for the Heavy Bolter, it's fairly stubby, but even with the thick barrel it can't be a solid object (as covered above). If I had to guess that the extra servo harness likely gives them the ability to fight weapon climb as something that powerful would become an AA weapon without some kind of way to keep it from climbing. Additionally it'd be a lot of long term strain on the arms, especially since they don't use any kind of sling to distribute the weight backwards. I'd likely class it as being around as heavy as a M2 Browning without the tripod which clocks in at 38 kg (83.78 lb). I figure that despite being a good couple feet shorter, the thicker barrel and heavier firing mechanism likely make up the difference.

Well, this additional arm exoskeleton is also used by Sisters wielding a Heavy Flamer and Multimelta.

We know there are some few humans who are capable of wielding their heavy weapon like a rifle (Harker), but it seems to be an extraordinary feat to just operate one single-handedly at all. In the Imperial Guard, this is done by two people, one of whom carries the weapon, the other the ammunition.

"All bolt weapons are highly advanced and technologically sophisticated, and the heavy version is the most effective and complex weapon of its type. They are extremely bulky and often known as 'back breaker' by those who carry them."
- Necromunda rulebook

You go carry an 80lbs weapon and tell me it doesn't break your back.

And the weight of a bolter, at least the Sisters me is perfectly reasonable. It sucks to carry a loaded M16 for lon periods of time but it's not an unreasonable weight.

And I was an Admin guy in the Army, didn't stop them from training me how how to shoot or kick doors in. I imagine all Novices recieving the same basic trainng and then more advanced training later when they are split into their orders?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
From experiance, the best weapons training results come from putting it in their hands on day 1 and training them on it regularly. Make them carry it everywhere, grow attached to it, bond with it, learn it's every curve, scratch and quirk.

That's what is being done by real militaries and the people who train this way are better shots, more conscious about not "flagging" their buddies and generally more comfortable with the weapon.

I can see the Sisters doing the same thing. Perhaps going as far as the bolter their issued is theirs until death (if they take the Vow of Repentance I'd then assume it's held for them in hopes they return "forgiven").

But that's my mixing of head canon and real life experience.

Now as for weight, the Sisters Bolters look to be scaled down from the larger Marine ones. I assume they also employ a smaller magazine as well, requiring more reloading as well.

Now considering that, it seems to be fairly in scale, with the bearer and is only roughly as little wider than they are, Infact, this image gives us a good sense of what the scale of the weapon should be:


So based on that image, the Bolter is roughly the size of a carbine or maybe a bullpup (or even one of the larger SMGs out there) in length, but a bit taller, and with more housing than our weapons typically do. Now if it were solid metal the heat wouldn't disperse efficiently and it'd cook off rounds, so that large body is likely mostly a heat shroud with some ventilation built in to prevent that issue.

Based on that I'd say the Bolter the Sisters uses is more likely in the weight range of a loaded M16 or Ak-47 (in that order): 3.6 kg (7.9 lb)- 4.78 kg (10.5 lb).

Now the real factor for them would be endurance. And the power armor would assist in keeping their aim truer (as when fatigue sets in, so does shaking) as well as making the weight be less of a problem.

As for the Heavy Bolter, it's fairly stubby, but even with the thick barrel it can't be a solid object (as covered above). If I had to guess that the extra servo harness likely gives them the ability to fight weapon climb as something that powerful would become an AA weapon without some kind of way to keep it from climbing. Additionally it'd be a lot of long term strain on the arms, especially since they don't use any kind of sling to distribute the weight backwards. I'd likely class it as being around as heavy as a M2 Browning without the tripod which clocks in at 38 kg (83.78 lb). I figure that despite being a good couple feet shorter, the thicker barrel and heavier firing mechanism likely make up the difference.

So in that case you really would need some kind of power armor with strength enhancement to carry it around for long periods of time and use it effectively.

But that's just my take on it.

IF you go by FFG fluff:

The space marines use larger Astarus-pattern bolter, because well... They are 7 ft tall superhumans and need larger grips and trigger guards etc.

Sisters would use Godwyn-pattern bolters, that are sized for normal humans. and a bolter is a bolter, they both use the same sized round.

Also don't forget that both wear power armor, which will help absorb recoil.

Ralis wrote:
IF you go by FFG fluff:

Which we needn't, since the Witch Hunters codex talks about it. Not that I don't like FFG stuff (I'd love to give it a go, in fact), but apparently they've made some odd decisions with regards to Sororitas equipment, from what I've heard. Like them using "civilian" bolters, or something like that.

Ralis wrote:
Sisters would use Godwyn-pattern bolters, that are sized for normal humans. and a bolter is a bolter, they both use the same sized round.

Godwyn-De'az Pattern, specifically. What's interesting is that the codex says that it is superior to nearly all other boltgun-type weapons. Probably because, as with their armour, it's of a more modern design than many of its equivilants.

Just for the record, we've made gyrojet pistols as a species and they barely recoil. So we can leave that out of consideration.

Wishlist kit: All plastic Avenger Strike Fighter complete with Sisters bitz and a SOB pilot.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Wishlist kit: All plastic Avenger Strike Fighter complete with Sisters bitz and a SOB pilot.

Hell yeah. I'd love a proper SoB flyer. It'd also nicely put an end to the misconception that the Sisters absolutely cannot have their own flyers (it could be true, though, not 100% sure).

Or, failing the Avenger making it over from FW, a Lightning Fighter and/or Sororitas Valkyrie would be cool as well.

 Troike wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Wishlist kit: All plastic Avenger Strike Fighter complete with Sisters bitz and a SOB pilot.

Hell yeah. I'd love a proper SoB flyer. It'd also nicely put an end to the misconception that the Sisters absolutely cannot have their own flyers (it could be true, though, not 100% sure).

Or, failing the Avenger making it over from FW, a Lightning Fighter and/or Sororitas Valkyrie would be cool as well.

I still say we should get our own drop vehicle/gunship.

I think the Avenger AND a dropship would be the perfect one two for the Sisters.

Sisters drop ship, definitely: should be Sororitas Valkyries -- just look at the name! We have to have it for the name alone!

More seriously, there are good fluffcanon answers in this thread: Do sisters have spaceships? (No Sydney homebrew in there, I promise, just smarter people than me talking about canon).


As for bolters for Novices:

1) the fact some novices are headed for non-militant Orders doesn't exempt them from needing firearms training: the Hospitallers in particular are often field medics and get bolt pistols & power armor in the White Dwarf codex, the Dialogus go on dangerous expeditions where their linguistic expertise is needed to communicate with devolved locals or read cursed runes, the Famulous sometimes have to negotiate with a bullet to the head, etc. So bolter and bolt pistol training is a must for everyone.

2) the big deal at the end of the invitation ceremony at the Ecclesiarchal palace where novices become full Battle Sisters is getting their power armor -- nothing in fluff I've seen about their getting their first bolter.
Now it's an interesting question whether novices are given a bolter-for-life or just get them as needed for training. If it's true that non-militant orders are in the same training program (I hadn't known that), then I'd suspect it's as-needed, though maybe older novices get tracked for Famulous, Hospitaller, Battle Sisters and receive their personal boltgun then.
Also they've got to do some power armor training during their novitiate, otherwise they couldn't use it immediately on becoming Sisters, but it's probably using smelly old training suits ("Did someone throw up in here?") that don't fit anyone particularly well, which is why getting your own personally fitted armor at initiation is such a huge deal.

In Hammer and Anvil the Medic, doesn't she use a bolter and refer to her training with it? Clockwork is correct that they'd be trained with the weapon they'd be using. Also, the bolter would be heavier than an AK. It'd be more like a fully loaded SAW. Isn't the bolter something ridiculous like.75 caliber? That's going to be a big gun, power armor or not. High tech materials could lessen the weight a great deal so I'll give them that.

Lightweight materials yes, but also 40K is so grimdark that even teenage girls routinely carry heavy weapons.

Well, at least if they're headed for the Sororitas. I imagine most Hive kids have to make do with a second-hand stubber and a stout piece of metal pipe. Maybe there's a charity in the Imperium to correct this? "Leave No Child Unarmed"?

Sisters use Godwyn-De'az pattern. Astartes use Godwyn-pattern.

In the second Ultramarines novel, there's a scene with a Hospitaller taking up a bolter against the Tyranid horde along with something like "She wasn't as good as a Battle Sister, but she knew her way around the weapon".

Then again, Blood of Ughaheim claims that the Famulous didn't know she could use a bolter until she switch orders to the Militant.

Don't SoB mostly use marine based tech?-Short of a video game showing them using Valkyries... wouldn't they tend to use something in the vein of the Stormraven and Stormtalon?

I'm imagining a cross between the Darktalon and Stormtalon... Imagine the front half of the DarkTalon: wings, engines, and all; the rear half of the Stormtalon with its tilt engines and tail, sandwiching a 10-12 model transport bay.

 MWHistorian wrote:
In Hammer and Anvil the Medic, doesn't she use a bolter and refer to her training with it? Clockwork is correct that they'd be trained with the weapon they'd be using. Also, the bolter would be heavier than an AK. It'd be more like a fully loaded SAW. Isn't the bolter something ridiculous like.75 caliber? That's going to be a big gun, power armor or not. High tech materials could lessen the weight a great deal so I'll give them that.

Sisters use a smaller, lighter bolter than the Marines. It appears to be shorter than an AK, but has a heavier barrel and firing mechanism hence the weight comparison. I'd imagine that it weighs as much as a fully loaded AK as it can't be 100% solid or the heat wouldn't transfer out as effectively. The top cover is likely a removeable shroud and there should be some space inside that's basically a bit empty.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters use a smaller, lighter bolter than the Marines. It appears to be shorter than an AK, but has a heavier barrel and firing mechanism hence the weight comparison. I'd imagine that it weighs as much as a fully loaded AK as it can't be 100% solid or the heat wouldn't transfer out as effectively. The top cover is likely a removeable shroud and there should be some space inside that's basically a bit empty.

According to FFG, a non-Astartes boltgun weights 7kgs. It is nearly the double of the weight of the AK-47 (~4kgs).

 MWHistorian wrote:
In Hammer and Anvil the Medic, doesn't she use a bolter and refer to her training with it? Clockwork is correct that they'd be trained with the weapon they'd be using. Also, the bolter would be heavier than an AK. It'd be more like a fully loaded SAW. Isn't the bolter something ridiculous like.75 caliber? That's going to be a big gun, power armor or not. High tech materials could lessen the weight a great deal so I'll give them that.

I realize it's the Grim dark future...

.75 cal isn't that crazy. It's only slightly larger than a shotgun shell. So weightwise you're looking at something akin to a heavier automatic shotgun, plus whatever the weight of the bolter's guidance system and the gyrostabilizer. All that before weight of ammo.

The AA12 automatic shotgun, which is generally regarded as overweight is 11.5 lbs, unloaded.

The closest thing to a bolter's subsystems would probably be the XM-25 target set sight and programmer.... 4.6 lbs.

Giving us a modern analog of 16 lbs. this isn't to say that's the weight of bolter, rather just a baseline. Then you add the weight of ammo and it's over 20lbs. It should be considered that for individual weapons 7-8lbs is the standard. At a system weight of over 20lbs its a light squad support weapon. When one considers the grandure of Marines and SoB the nothin that they all carry something that today would only be a squad weapon seems appropriate. The marine versions are probably heavier for the same reason Ogryn weapons are, ruggedized for someone who might swing it like a club.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sisters use a smaller, lighter bolter than the Marines. It appears to be shorter than an AK, but has a heavier barrel and firing mechanism hence the weight comparison. I'd imagine that it weighs as much as a fully loaded AK as it can't be 100% solid or the heat wouldn't transfer out as effectively. The top cover is likely a removeable shroud and there should be some space inside that's basically a bit empty.

According to FFG, a non-Astartes boltgun weights 7kgs. It is nearly the double of the weight of the AK-47 (~4kgs).

They also think Power Armor should only have enough juice for a few hours completely negating the fact that it's often used for days on end. Forgive me if I ignore what they say.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They also think Power Armor should only have enough juice for 3 hours completely negating the fact that it's often used for days on end. Forgive me if I ignore what they say.

Only "civilian" PA (as it lacks the power backpack). Military PA can go on until the end of times.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They also think Power Armor should only have enough juice for 3 hours completely negating the fact that it's often used for days on end. Forgive me if I ignore what they say.

Only "civilian" PA (as it lacks the power backpack). Military PA can go on until the end of times.

Right, because an Inquisitor would really be tromping around in something that can just die on him at random.

Look, the FFG stuff is fun, but it has some issues and I don't count it as canon for much beyond "stuff exists".

The idea that Sisters would be using 'civilian-grade' weaponry is, in itself, laughable.

Or shooting laser beams out of their eyes.

Personally, I found FFG's fluff to be really "hit and miss". They've got some very cool ideas, but the Sisters really suffered if you compare their material in the RPG to Codex descriptions.
I think SoB were still treated better when Dark Heresy was written by Black Industries, when Acts of Faith were still just as vague as they are in GW's TT, and when 50 Battle Sisters was said to be unusually much for a single sector, their mere presence and the worrying nobles being offered as a possible plot for GMs. Even the invention of "Novices on Detached Duty" was a brilliant idea to explain the presence of such characters in an Inquisitorial player party.
Then FFG took over, the writers switched, Acts of Faith got turned into proper space magic with light shooting out of their eyes, and the number of Sisters got centuplicated. Compared to the numbers from the Codex, an entire Major Order has moved a full third of its entire personnel to the Calixis Sector, and that's before you begin counting the other Orders that are now there as well. Also, Battle Sisters are now capable of taking on renegade Guard and "even" Orks. No word about them purging Marine Chapters - but that's no wonder, because their "civilian" boltguns suck so much they don't even have a chance to punch through the Marines' better armour and the toughness of their naked skin.

Bah, I'm ranting again. In the end, of course FFG's stuff is neither more right nor wrong as GW's own material, but as a Sisters fan I know what to prefer.
Much of the above may just be the result of the game designers' attempt to force them into the "wrong" game - you basically have these characters right next to Guardsmen, Scribes and Hive Gangers. Their fluff might have turned out differently had they waited until Deathwatch to write them up as playable characters, complete with rules that are balanced to Marine PCs rather than Acolytes. FFG's different 40k RPGs are unfortunately "standalones" with their own focus in narration and rules, rather than being meant to be compatible to each other. It's why Marines in DW get a ton more traits than Marines in Black Crusade, for example. Or why you have two different kinds of Genestealers (one for normal humans, one for Deathwatch SM).

ClockworkZion wrote:And I was an Admin guy in the Army, didn't stop them from training me how how to shoot or kick doors in. I imagine all Novices recieving the same basic trainng and then more advanced training later when they are split into their orders?

SisterSydney wrote:the fact some novices are headed for non-militant Orders doesn't exempt them from needing firearms training: the Hospitallers in particular are often field medics and get bolt pistols & power armor in the White Dwarf codex, the Dialogus go on dangerous expeditions where their linguistic expertise is needed to communicate with devolved locals or read cursed runes, the Famulous sometimes have to negotiate with a bullet to the head, etc.

That's why I was saying they'd be trained in all sorts of wargear - in fact, they would very likely already start martial training in the Schola Progenium as soon as their potential for service in one of the many military or paramilitary arms of the Imperium is noticed (which is where I imagine they'd pick up basic las drill). Training with Sororitas equipment would commence after the start of their novitiate.

Fluffwise, it could be argued either way ("in actual combat give them the stuff they are most used to" vs "let them do their trial of fire with actual SoB gear" vs "the bolter is the mark of a fully fledged Sister, not a Novice", etc), so I'll freely admit that it is mostly a stylistic preference to me. It serves to separate them more from the status of a "full" Sister, lets them appear a bit more elegant (sleek lasgun vs crude, bulky bolter), and it marks a happy medium between IG and SoB. Let's just say I fell in love with the sketches I've been drawing and the artwork I've commissioned.

SisterSydney wrote:Sisters drop ship, definitely: should be Sororitas Valkyries -- just look at the name! We have to have it for the name alone!

Valid point.

SisterSydney wrote:Lightweight materials yes, but also 40K is so grimdark that even teenage girls routinely carry heavy weapons. [...] I imagine most Hive kids have to make do with a second-hand stubber and a stout piece of metal pipe. Maybe there's a charity in the Imperium to correct this? "Leave No Child Unarmed"?

Necromunda Juves.

aka_mythos wrote:Don't SoB mostly use marine based tech?-Short of a video game showing them using Valkyries... wouldn't they tend to use something in the vein of the Stormraven and Stormtalon?

Their stuff isn't Marine-based, but rather both Marine and Sisters equipment has the same predecessor - at least this was said in the description of their power armour ("based on the same archaic systems"). I guess you could say it's two branches of the same root?
The tricky thing with the Stormraven and Stormtalon (aside from their weird "stunted" look ) is that those were supposedly developed specifically for the Marines - unlike, say, the Rhino which the Astartes are just one of several users of.

PS: the Avenger still looks gak. Go Lightning!

I just meant marine's tech is generally more sophisticated and of a higher quality than IG tech, and thus whatever SoB have flyerwise would tend to look more like the marine aircraft.

How hard would it then be to give the SoB a predecessor to either or both of the two? That is the root of those two marine vehicles, such an aircraft would give them something unique while also justifying why SM don't use them. Writing some fluff about some older less specialized aircraft that developed into the Stormraven and Stormtalon.It wouldn't be an inferior aircraft just something not as specialized.

 Lynata wrote:
... Let's just say I fell in love with the sketches I've been drawing and the artwork I've commissioned.

Spoiler:

Oh! More novice art!

*snaffles*

You're welcome

aka_mythos wrote:How hard would it then be to give the SoB a predecessor to either or both of the two? That is the root of those two marine vehicles, such an aircraft would give them something unique while also justifying why SM don't use them. Writing some fluff about some older less specialized aircraft that developed into the Stormraven and Stormtalon.It wouldn't be an inferior aircraft just something not as specialized.

Well, technically, why should it not be the Valkyrie? It's not like IG stuff must be inferior to Marine equipment, often it just serves a different capacity.

Take the Rhino, for example. The only areas where it could be considered better than a Chimaera is air-drop capability and the ease to repair it in the field. This suits both Marine (and Sororitas) method and speed of deployment, as well as making it more reliable for forces that, unlike the lumbering behemoth that is a full regiment of the Imperial Guard, may be crippled if only a single vehicle breaks down. The Chimaera, however, is better armoured and better armed, suitable for an army that prefers a simplistic but brutally efficient head-on assault. It's just a matter of specialisations.

So, what exactly are the differences between the Valkyrie and the Stormraven? Am I right in assuming (from the first looks) that a somewhat viable comparison might be a Bell UH-1E helo to a Mil Mi-24 Hind gunship?

1. Valkyries
The Valkyrie's combination of firepower (when upgraded), armour, and passenger capacity actually make it much more like the Hind than like any US helicopter. We tend to have pure attach/recon helicopters (Cobra, Kiowa, Apache, even Comanche before it was cancelled) and pure utility/transport choppers (Huey, Black Hawk, Chinook, etc.).

The Stormraven, as far as I can tell, is just bigger and blockier and better armed, like all things Astartes. Being in the Space Marines is kind of like being in Texas: Everything's bigger there.....


2. Rhinos
Besides the prestige of the more ancient vehicle, I think the main attraction of Rhinos for the Astartes and Sororitas is that their rugged, self-repairing systems require a hell of a lot less maintenance than something like the Chimera. The Imperial Guard can throw lots of bodies and spare parts at its maintenance problems, the Marines and Sisters can't.

3. Novices
I love that Novice picture, Lynata, I really do, it's been in my "neat images" folder for a long time. (So you sketched it and then paid someone to do it in full color? Not quite clear what you meant there). Maybe that's their "casual" uniform and weaponry. But I still think they got the basics like lasguns, and even firing boltguns from a braced position, in Schola; by the time they make Novice, they're training on bolters and in carapace -- not power armour yet because (a) it's really expensive and requires custom tailoring (b) as Melissia (I think) said with her Novice squads, their bodies' haven't finished growing so it'd be pointless to fit them for power armor.

4. New units
Yeah, I made some. Some more, I mean. This thread inspired me to pull out my homebrew notebook to refine & post
- Novices: WS2, BS3, Ld7, boltguns and carapace, with an Act of Faith called "Childrens' Crusade" and a special rule called "sacrificial lambs."
- Reapers: WS3, BS5 (yes, five, not a typo), stealthy & shrouded infiltrators.
- Thrones: Sororitas Bikers, with T3 because their bikes are lighter than Marines' but an average of +6" per turn because they're really fething fast. Also HIt & Run.

All comments, critiques, and frustrated head-desking at my obsessive behavior are welcome over in the Proposed Rules thread for the new units.

 Pendix wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
... Let's just say I fell in love with the sketches I've been drawing and the artwork I've commissioned.

Spoiler:

Oh! More novice art!

*snaffles*

"Do you think Sister Superior will notice we painted these Fleur de Li on?"
"Nah we should be fine, if she does I'm sure she'll appreciate our dedication and enthusiasm"
"Okay, if you're sure. Where did you get a face painting kit any way?"

Maybe it's a mark of good conduct ... you know, like the stamps you get in elementary school. Just on your face instead of your exercise book!

SisterSydney wrote:The Valkyrie's combination of firepower (when upgraded), armour, and passenger capacity actually make it much more like the Hind than like any US helicopter. We tend to have pure attach/recon helicopters (Cobra, Kiowa, Apache, even Comanche before it was cancelled) and pure utility/transport choppers (Huey, Black Hawk, Chinook, etc.).
The Stormraven, as far as I can tell, is just bigger and blockier and better armed, like all things Astartes. Being in the Space Marines is kind of like being in Texas: Everything's bigger there.....

I've compared the Valkyrie to the Hind in the past myself, not in the least because I think I'm seeing some distinctive design similarities there (double canopy? check. twin engines behind cockpit? check. wings with hardpoints? check. general "rugged russian construction" style? check.)


I just struggled to find something I could compare the Stormraven to - so I ultimately resolved to bump the Valkyrie down a bit to the next-best gunship I could think of, even if it's a rather crude "solution".

So you're saying you don't see any differences in terms of usage, velocity or manoeuverability between the two?

SisterSydney wrote:Besides the prestige of the more ancient vehicle, I think the main attraction of Rhinos for the Astartes and Sororitas is that their rugged, self-repairing systems require a hell of a lot less maintenance than something like the Chimera. The Imperial Guard can throw lots of bodies and spare parts at its maintenance problems, the Marines and Sisters can't.

Well, they probably could in their HQ ... but not in the field.
Easier maintenance at home is yet another factor to consider, though, when we think back on our earlier discussion regarding the engineering and maintenance capabilities of the Sisterhood.

SisterSydney wrote:So you sketched it and then paid someone to do it in full color? Not quite clear what you meant there

Nah, I just came up with the basic design, then got two artists who are simply better than I am to "draw them properly".
The design seems to have caught on with some people by now - I've seen at least one picture where it was used without me paying for it.