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ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters have fleets in 2nd edition. It's not been countered by fluff yet. So why do the drop pods need to be stored on Terra and Ophelia VII exactly?

Hey, I'm the one usually argueing for fleets! I'd even hazard a guess few people on dakka would know if I hadn't thrown around that quote as often as I did. But this and the strike force list were written at a time when there were no Minor Orders Militant, only the Major ones. It was not before the 3rd Edition Codex: WH that the concept of the Minor Orders was broadened from "more obscure specialisations" into "subsidiaries of the Major Orders".
Now, one could of course argue that anything that applied to the Orders Militant as a whole back then should apply to the Orders Militant as a whole now, in spite of the obvious addition of the Minor Orders, but here I am being cautious and try to focus on writer's intent rather than direct port, and the intent back then was for this to apply to the "Big Six".

The obscurity of any fluff about Sororitas spaceships further leads me to voluntarily limit these capabilities to seek greater acceptance from the fandom as a whole, basically being satisfied with few ships compared to huge numbers of fleets which would surely irritate a lot of people.
Lastly, consider that the Minor Orders have only about a hundred Sisters on average. Even a single spaceship would already be overkill for such a small convent - it's the equivalent of permanently assigning an aircraft carrier to support a single USMC company!

Hence I am rather looking at the Imperial Navy for (usually) temporary support on an as-needed basis whenever the Minor Orders are concerned. Given that these bases, unlike the Convents Sanctorum and Prioris, have been established with a locally limited task in mind, the Sisters should not have much reason to move around by themselves anyways.

This is all just my own interpretation, though, and I certainly don't claim absolute truth when it comes to such theories! Still, I find Psienesis' suggestion to be somewhat easier to accept: in essence, it could be summed up as "make them available, include the fluff about their extreme rarity, and let the player sort out how they justify their presence."

After all, the same thing could be said about Exorcists...

 Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:I would like something simpler... Useful Celestians.

I think we all agree on that!
Just give them storm shields and power weapons and call it a day.

Anyways, if you want variety ...

HQ
- Canoness (IC)
- Palatine (IC)
- Confessor (IC)
- Special Characters (IC)

Troops
- Battle Sister Squad
- Novice Aggregation Squad
- Frateris Militia Mob

Elites
- Celestian Squad
- Celestian Gladiatrix Squad
- Repentia Squad
- Hospitaller (IC)
- Armouress (IC)
- Priest (IC)

Fast Attack
- Dominion Squad
- Seraphim Squad

Heavy Support
- Retributor Squad
- Penitent Engine
- Exorcist MARS
- Lightning Attack Fighter
- Dominica Gun Pod*

Dedicated Transports
- Rhino APC
- Venator Scout Car
- Repressor IFV
- Immolator IFV
- Valkyrie Dropship
- Dominica Drop Pod*

*: unlocked by Canoness or Palatine, may only be fielded if the entire army deploys via deep-strike

("Gladiatrix" is the WiP name for this CC-focused exosuit unit I've been pondering about, armed with a huge shield, some kind of melee weapon, and a built-in flamer - I'm still unsure about the name; a lot of good terms such as Vanguard, Purifier, etc. are unfortunately already occupied by the gazillion things that some Space Marine Chapter gets)

Stat 'em up! Seek feedback in a thread! Don't stop homebrewing 'til you drop dead!

No, seriously, I want to see that army list now.

Ouphh, it only does contain three new units ... that being said, coming up with a proper profile and background entry for them might be fun.

By the way, I've been thinking about other possible names for that exosuit CC unit some more, and am currently considering names from angelic mythology. How would "Memitim" sound? Or perhaps Elohim, recycling that term which was already used as a (somewhat weird) Battle Sister rank in Dark Heresy? Another option could be Erelim ("valiant", "courageous", ranked above the Seraphim).
I'd also consider ranks or titles from religious military organisations, archaic names for weapons or armour (preferrably from Greece or Latin), or perhaps names of female warrior deities if they have an appropriate domain and the name would "synch" stylistically with what we have already.

If anyone could point me to more resources regarding this little pet-project, I'd be grateful.

Angelic mythology is cool, but the Hebrew names don't have much, well, name recognition. Your classic Catholic / Word of Dante set of Dominions, Powers, Virtues, etc. is going to be easier for folks to understand, especially in the vernacular

(Hey, you're from Italy, isn't that what your little flag says? I know it's pretty secular nowadays but there's gotta be some old-school Catholics left to consult....).

Thrones gotta be bikers, though, because (1) they ride into battle sitting and (2) Thrones are the angels described in the Book of Ezekiel as giant scary wheels.

 Lynata wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:The main problem with Lynata's idea is that... well, every Battle Sister and every Techpriest have power armour - why does this random battle sister techie not have power armour?

Because the Hospitaller doesn't, either.

um . . . currently; according to the WD mini-dex, both the Hospitaller and Diaglonious (part of the command squad) have 3+ saves (and hence we can assume they are wearing power armor). Their models sure don't look it, but there you go.

 Lynata wrote:
Hmmh, I wonder if perhaps such a character should not be a Battle Sister herself, but be classed under the "Sisters from other Orders" group - perhaps hailing from the Orders Pronatus, or an entirely new / as of yet undescribed Order that focuses on servicing the technology of the Sisterhood, in the same manner that the Orders Militant apparently have Sisters Hospitallers as attached medical specialists rather than training their own medics.
I think part of me would prefer these technicians to hail from the ranks of the Battle Sisters, but a special Order to service the entire Sisterhood could then also aid all the other branches of the Adepta Sororitas, such as maintenance of the Hospitallers' medical equipment, or the databanks of the Orders Famulous, and so on.
The Adepta Sororitas has been described as a huge network of interlinked parts all helping each other out, after all...

Having said that though; I'd be behind that kind of differentiation. The 'Tech Sister' being from a non-combat order is evocative and different. Plus would give some excellent modeling opportunities.

For the curious I've put a layer of polish on those drop pod rules: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/557112.page#6137216

And no I have no plans on restricting them.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think I'd like a dropship in fluff and art, but not sure I'd want to have a model for one in actual gameplay. Pods are big enough, but at least they are more tall than wide, I think having a Pelican (the SST-inspired troop transport in Halo) on the board, if it were actually designed to fit 10 or 12 Sisters, would just be too much.

Valkyries can do that and they're not too big.

SisterSydney wrote:Angelic mythology is cool, but the Hebrew names don't have much, well, name recognition. Your classic Catholic / Word of Dante set of Dominions, Powers, Virtues, etc. is going to be easier for folks to understand, especially in the vernacular

Unfortunately that is a valid concern. :(
Though that didn't prevent someone from already coming up with "Elohim", and it might make people who are curious google the term! The main concern might be that it just ... "sounds cool", maybe?

SisterSydney wrote:Hey, you're from Italy, isn't that what your little flag says? I know it's pretty secular nowadays but there's gotta be some old-school Catholics left to consult....

Ireland, actually. Emigrated there a couple years ago from Germany.
Sometimes you may also see me flying a French, UK or US flag, though. That's when I'm behind a proxy - so don't be surprised at my apparent globetrotting!

(also, protip: whenever you're not sure, hovering over the flag icon will show the country name in a little popup!)

Also, hah, you and your bikes! Love your reasoning though.

Pendix wrote:um . . . currently; according to the WD mini-dex, both the Hospitaller and Diaglonious (part of the command squad) have 3+ saves (and hence we can assume they are wearing power armor). Their models sure don't look it, but there you go.

Um.

Would you believe me that this is the first time I'm actually noticing this?

Wow... as far as wishlisting goes, I'd actually revert this to the save the model used to have in 3E! It kind of gave the Hospitaller more character by letting her equipment stick out a little more, and it certainly fit better to the mini. How is this power armour powered?

Pendix wrote:Having said that though; I'd be behind that kind of differentiation. The 'Tech Sister' being from a non-combat order is evocative and different. Plus would give some excellent modeling opportunities.

Thankyou!

Somehow, being in ireland doesn't weaken my faith in the fact that you can find a catholic if you look hard enough :p

I quite like the Hebrew names, but maybe that's just because I also like Evangelion. ^^; The -elim suffix means "child of divinity", so using it as an addendum to angelic names that don't end with -im to fit the theme is actually pretty convenient.

Suggested powers;

Afriel (angel of youth) - Afrielim (novices)
Ramiel (thunder of god) - Ramielim (alt heavy weapon squad?)

... I had more. I just can't remember them (or their translations in the case of Erelim and Pahalim)...

Had a thought, though maybe this would only be for games above (or below?) certain points-levels.

If you had an SC, let's call her the Mistress of Novices, either as the HQ or as part of the Conclave, it would unlock Novitiate Squads, which are WS2, BS2, T3, 4+ armed with pistol/CC in squads of 5, with option to purchase 1 HB or Flamer per squad (lower stats than BS... they're teens, basically). Might also have a "SitNW" type of SR for the Mistress, but haven't really worked that out, would toss this if the unlock permitted buying multiple squads. Novitiate Squads generate +1 FP for every turn they remain casualty-free.

Thinking that you could unlock this at 2k+ games, as this represents having the bulk (or the entirety) of an Order present... or, alternately, a 750-point games or lower, as this represents that the enemy has attacked a small Shrine or some other site that has few Sisters present... a squad of BSS, the Mistress of Novices (as HQ)... and the Novices here on a field trip.

@ NGE

Hmm, I also just considered the term "Nephilim" - it's more commonly known and would thus sound less alien to most, and its description as "violent giants" would fit perfectly to a unit of 8 feet tall CC-focused exoskeletons?

As for the Mistress of Novices ... I totally forgot about her! How about making her part of the Sororitas Command Squad? She would represent the Orders Famulous and thus fit in nicely with the whole "Sisters from other Orders" schpiel.
Regarding the Novices themselves, I'm still thinking about carapace + lasguns as standard equipment, but perhaps with an option to purchase a couple flamers or (normal) boltguns? And they could switch to laspistol + CC weapon for free.

I think they should have WS 2, BS 3, though, given that they are not far from "graduating". In fact ... studio background hints at the Novices being trained centrally before they are transferred to the convents (which does not happen until after taking their vows on Terra), and that novitiate education is carried out by the Orders Famulous. So how about making the Novices' presence on the battlefield a sort of "life fire exercise", a "rite of passage" where they must prove their dedication to serve alongside their (future) Sisters? A group of Novices in their final year together with their mistress joining with one of the Orders Militant in a campaign? They would aid the Sisters in their daily work, and when the time comes deploy alongside them on the fields of battle.

This is where the term "Aggregation Squad" comes from, by the way - it denotes the Novices' task and purpose in joining up with fully fledged Battle Sisters and fighting by their side. Making them "fit in" with the Sisterhood as the final part of their training.
See also this diagram of RL monastic order novitiate stages: http://books.google.ie/books?id=sgTAEQOSI50C&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127#v=onepage&q&f=false

Yeah, part of the SCS could work as well. I was thinking, though, of the Novices starting with either bolt-pistol and chainsword and/or boltgun since, well, they're in training. Why would they train with weapons they aren't going to be using? So two of the three holy weapons, bolter and flamer, and carapace. Perhaps a choice between a squad with bolters plus 1 HB (for a cost) or bolt-pistol/CCW plus one Flamer (for a cost), to suit the nature of the battle on the tabletop (slugfest or shoot-fest).

Never trust a fourteen year old with a melta. Believe me.

BS3 could work, as well. My intent of having it as BS2 was to not overshadow the actual Battle Sisters, especially if there was an added SitNW-like rule for the Mistress.

... and I rather like the "trial by fire" aspect of that, too.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, part of the SCS could work as well. I was thinking, though, of the Novices starting with either bolt-pistol and chainsword and/or boltgun since, well, they're in training. Why would they train with weapons they aren't going to be using? So two of the three holy weapons, bolter and flamer, and carapace. Perhaps a choice between a squad with bolters plus 1 HB (for a cost) or bolt-pistol/CCW plus one Flamer (for a cost), to suit the nature of the battle on the tabletop (slugfest or shoot-fest).

Giving the Novices lasguns makes sense because they're cheaper than bolters, easier to maintain, and can be dialed back in power for training. They're a good way for a girl to learn how to handle a rifle before graduating to the rocket launchers. Giving them chainswords doesn't make sense, because it's a useless skill for a Sister to learn, and a good way to get them killed.

I still don't like the lasguns.

Why lasguns? They won't use lasguns ever again, and recoilless weapons are useless for training in using bolters.

Autoguns, maybe, but I like the idea of bolt pistols as 'mini bolters for small hands'.

^This
Bolt pistol + close combat weapon?

 Psienesis wrote:

Never trust a fourteen year old with a melta. Believe me.

Now I want meltas and flamers for them too.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, part of the SCS could work as well. I was thinking, though, of the Novices starting with either bolt-pistol and chainsword and/or boltgun since, well, they're in training. Why would they train with weapons they aren't going to be using? So two of the three holy weapons, bolter and flamer, and carapace. Perhaps a choice between a squad with bolters plus 1 HB (for a cost) or bolt-pistol/CCW plus one Flamer (for a cost), to suit the nature of the battle on the tabletop (slugfest or shoot-fest).

Giving the Novices lasguns makes sense because they're cheaper than bolters, easier to maintain, and can be dialed back in power for training. They're a good way for a girl to learn how to handle a rifle before graduating to the rocket launchers. Giving them chainswords doesn't make sense, because it's a useless skill for a Sister to learn, and a good way to get them killed.

So you're saying that a Battle Sisters should have no training with one of the most ubiquitous melee weapons in the Imperium?

Not buying it. Sisters are trained in melee combat at the very least because they need to defend themselves. Plus it's a good way to raise aggression, and a good work out.

The US Army uses bayonet training not because you need to be ready for a bayonet charge at anytime but because it has physical and psychological benefits that exceed the time spent. Plus it never hurts to get them used to the idea of killing someone with their bare hands.

And that got dark quick.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I still don't like the lasguns.

Why lasguns? They won't use lasguns ever again, and recoilless weapons are useless for training in using bolters.

Autoguns, maybe, but I like the idea of bolt pistols as 'mini bolters for small hands'.

Low recoil weapons are superior for training because it actually gives them the opportunity to get the basics right. And pistols are even worse. Pistols are less accurate and have worse recoil than rifles, because of their light weight and short barrels.

Edit:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So you're saying that a Battle Sisters should have no training with one of the most ubiquitous melee weapons in the Imperium?

Not buying it. Sisters are trained in melee combat at the very least because they need to defend themselves.

They won't defend themselves with a chainsword. Teach them to use a sarissa if you wish, but the only time in a Sister's career she will ever use any form of chain weapon is if she becomes a Sister Repentia.

They will have already had that training in the Schola, long before they were accepted into the Sisterhood. This level of Novitiates are a single step below being full Sisters. They are, in a sense, the "Scouts" of the Sororitas.

... and Sisters never deploy with lasguns. Those are weapons for the common soldier, not the elite of the Ecclesiarchy, and are gak-useless against the primary targets of the Sisterhood.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I still don't like the lasguns.

Why lasguns? They won't use lasguns ever again, and recoilless weapons are useless for training in using bolters.

Autoguns, maybe, but I like the idea of bolt pistols as 'mini bolters for small hands'.

Low recoil weapons are superior for training because it actually gives them the opportunity to get the basics right. And pistols are even worse. Pistols are less accurate and have worse recoil than rifles, because of their light weight and short barrels.

Edit:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So you're saying that a Battle Sisters should have no training with one of the most ubiquitous melee weapons in the Imperium?

Not buying it. Sisters are trained in melee combat at the very least because they need to defend themselves.

They won't defend themselves with a chainsword. Teach them to use a sarissa if you wish, but the only time in a Sister's career she will ever use any form of chain weapon is if she becomes a Sister Repentia.

Uh, why exactly? Most of the art, and a ton of the models, have sisters with Chain Swords/Eviscerators.

 AlexHolker wrote:
but the only time in a Sister's career she will ever use any form of chain weapon is if she becomes a Sister Repentia.

My Canoness begs to differ.

Chainswords and eviscerators are common throughout the Sisterhood.

The Sarissa is, basically, a bayonet for your boltgun. A chainsword seems to be the primary ccw for the rank-and-file, based on numerous depictions of the Sisters in art and literature. Though, this seems to hold true for *most* of the elite military formations of the Imperium. Officers carry power weapons, regular grunts carry chainswords.

Yyyep! That's usually how it goes.

I went for las weapons specifically because they're Novices - the boltgun is almost a holy weapon, so although I would let them have training with these weapons, I wouldn't let them "own" one until they have proven themselves worthy - as a fully fledged Sister Militant.
In short, I almost see it like a part of a full Sister's "uniform", together with the power armour, and the Novices should be a straight downgrade from the rank-and-file Battle Sister, whilst still making her more expensively equipped than the common Guardsman (hence the carapace).
The options of buying a flamer or a bolter for a Novice would basically represent rewards for being "the best in class" or something; a special accolade of honour reflecting their behaviour during the novitiate.

It's much the same with the Eviscerator, by the way - it was said in C:WH to be a ceremonial weapon, which is probably one of the main reasons for why it is not commonly issued.

There are also practical considerations, though. A boltgun is a rather heavy piece of equipment, and even at the age of 16-17 (~end of novitiate) it's bound to be problematic to some girls, considering that Space Marines use bolter drills in weeding out potential recruits from children not much younger than that ("no broken bones? congratulations, you've passed the test!"), and that the Novices do not enjoy the benefits of a suit of strength-enhancing powered armour. Meanwhile, the chainsword seems to be a sort of "officer weapon" issued only to squad leaders, perhaps a badge of office even, so I would argue for "lesser" CC weapons for the Novices much like I would expect them to be carried by normal Sisters.

If anyone remembers Dawn of War - the basic Battle Sisters were pulling out short, broad sabres or short swords when getting caught in melee.
I don't have a screenshot, but you can see the Battle Sisters saluting Aeneis with them at the start of this cutscene video.

... whilst looking for screenshots, I did find this, though:Badass. Gief Lightning!

Hmm... makes some sense, but I'm still not keen with lasguns for fluff reasons. Too... common. Too lightweight and not hard-hitting enough.

Shotguns, maybe, for their longarms? They do deploy with the Arbites fairly often... and I imagine that a lot of "field trips" for the Novitiates involve those genetic purity sweeps and purge-missions the Arbites get up to.

Granted, I also went for las weapons as they (and the carapace) were the starting equipment for Sororitas Novices in Dark Heresy. As much as I often complain about what FFG ultimately did with the Sisters, the original Black Industries team always seemed to have the right idea, so this was one of the concepts I had adopted for my own headcanon.
Also, there's different types of lasguns in terms of quality and efficiency, too, and in the fluff I would note how the Sisters are getting a more expensive one (both basic cost as well as added "bling") than IG standard issue. In fact, I was considering the Triplex-pattern, which, according to the 5E Guard Codex, is highly sought after due to its variable power setting.

Shotguns are an interesting idea, and even though they feel a bit Marine-Scout'ish I like your reasoning regarding the purity sweeps, as this is exactly the type of deployment I could see the Sisterhood using Novice squads in...
Perhaps include them as a free alternative?

Any model may replace her lasgun with:
- a laspistol ......... free

For every five models in the squad, one Novice may replace her lasgun with one of the following:
- a boltgun ......... +10 pts
- a flamer ........... +5 pts
- a shotgun ......... free

(point values are purely off the top of my head, didn't spend much thought on them)

lol, Triplex-pattern assault laser. Good for 1000 shots before the entire mechanism needs replacing - about 30 seconds continuous firing! - from 13th Legion.

Now I had to think of "Demolition Man" where the bad guy takes the cryo chamber's surgical pulse laser and zaps around a bit to fight the hero, then smashes it against a wall to break the containment circuit and produce a continuous, much more destructive beam...

"Dammit girl! How many times did I tell you to take better care of your gear?!"
*young teen stumbles around in the background, trying to control her lasgun which keeps firing a continuous broad beam at the ceiling, shooting out a number of lights whilst other Novices cower in fear of falling debris* "I'm sorry Mistress!"

I had another '80s movie in mind for Novices: Aliens. Remember Private Vasquez's awesome smart gun rig?

14-year-old girls can train with full-sized bolt guns because they've got a special armature built into their carapace -- not enough to count as power armor, not as elaborate & unwieldy as Vasquez's, just enough to let them effectively fire the weapon they'll be using for the rest of their lives. Maybe power armor arm components built into what's otherwise regular carapace.

Battle Sisters seem to be fully qualified with bolters as soon as they get their power armor. (Maybe not BS4, maybe that's the squad average, but qualified). Training with autoguns, shotguns, let alone recoiless las guns ain't gonna get you there. Even the bolt pistol teaches you the wrong stance and movements because it's normally one-handed -- unless you make a carbine version for the novices, not implausible -- and it'll break your wrist just as bad as a bolt gun will break both your wrists unless you have some kind of mechanical help holding it.

QED? No, but totally headcanon.

When it comes to the Sisters Boltgun I always assumed that perhaps the recoil issue is handled by using a lower powder charge to get the slug moving as it's real strength is from the secondary firing (gyrojets) which seem to have a time-delayed fuse, and the explosiveness of the round itself. A lower powder charge could compensate for the recoil without sacrificing killing power.