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Personally, I'm opposed to the idea, in general, of restricting a troop-type simply because it doesn't fit my relatively-narrow concept of a "fluffy army" when it can be argued that there's perfectly fluffy justifications for having those troops.

With the Novices squad, for example, while I would not personally field them very often, as I would not generally think of my Sisters army having a bunch of Novices along with them, I cannot, in good faith, say that another player might not have that idea for his/her army.

Maybe, in the narrative for their army, this order of Sisters has evacuated a priory after some sort of calamity, and are awaiting evacuation by their maternal order.... but Terra is a long, long ways away and the evac ship will not arrive for several months. In the mean time, the Sisters and their Novices have to survive on a world that is being invaded by Orks/Chaos/Necrons/Dark Eldar/Tau/Heretics/Whatever.

So while this other player and I might play some games together, even if we both play our Sisters armies, we could justify it by saying that... I dunno... there's a division in the ranks over how to proceed, or who to attack, or whether or not they *should* attack another faction on the planet... one thought being that it is their duty to destroy the enemies of the Emperor wherever they may be found, the other thought being that it would make more sense to wait for reinforcements to arrive, so that the purgation could be completed with more certainty, rather than probably throwing their lives away for nothing. And then they come to blows over it.

(I dunno, I just thought that up off the top of my head, there are probably better ways to phrase that, but you get my drift, I think).

 Lynata wrote:
If that's your concern, an easy solution would be to simply not make them scoring, as I believe was actually the case with the rules SisterSydney has proposed.

And/or limit the number of such units, just like the number of IG used to be limited to 2 per Sister Dialogous in the CA list - where you could only take the Sister Dialogous once.
Just swap the Sister Dialogous for a Mistress of Novices and you see where I'm going with this.

I'd rather they not exist so forgive me for giving out an olive branch of compromise.

I completely vote 'nay' on the novice idea.
A. it rips of space marines
B. they don't fit the fluff at all
C. they're not different from IG troops on the table
D. no.

ClockworkZion wrote:I'd rather they not exist so forgive me for giving out an olive branch of compromise.

Sure, sure. But then just say "no" - there's no reason to argue about it if you're going to decline any reaction to your criticism anyways.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:I'd rather they not exist so forgive me for giving out an olive branch of compromise.

Sure, sure. But then just say "no" - there's no reason to argue about it if you're going to decline any reaction to your criticism anyways.

I gave a reasonable compromise there that met the idea of them being on the field in those very special circumstances but keeps them from being used like Whiteshields or Marine Scouts. So who is just declining the other's reactions?

ClockworkZion wrote:I gave a reasonable compromise there that met the idea of them being on the field in those very special circumstances but keeps them from being used like Whiteshields or Marine Scouts. So who is just declining the other's reactions?

I don't think those of us who would like such a unit to exist would wish to see them limited to a single special mission, so if that is as far as you are willing to "budge", then there is simply no reason to discuss it at all.
We were exchanging ideas regarding an army list, and I'm not sure a compromise that keeps them out of it is a compromise at all.

Unless I have misinterpreted the others' stance on the issue, of course.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:I gave a reasonable compromise there that met the idea of them being on the field in those very special circumstances but keeps them from being used like Whiteshields or Marine Scouts. So who is just declining the other's reactions?

I don't think those of us who would like such a unit to exist would wish to see them limited to a single special mission, so if that is as far as you are willing to "budge", then there is simply no reason to discuss it at all.
We were exchanging ideas regarding an army list, and I'm not sure a compromise that keeps them out of it is a compromise at all.

Unless I have misinterpreted the others' stance on the issue, of course.

I tried to move on to new topics but we had to go back so don't go blaming me on this.

ClockworkZion wrote:I tried to move on to new topics but we had to go back so don't go blaming me on this.

I don't. I tried to move on to new topics as well.

Perhaps it would help if the "Pro-Novice-Faction" would put their discussion into spoilers, so that the "Contra-Novice-Faction" does not need to suffer it.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:I tried to move on to new topics but we had to go back so don't go blaming me on this.

I don't. I tried to move on to new topics as well.

Perhaps it would help if the "Pro-Novice-Faction" would put their discussion into spoilers, so that the "Contra-Novice-Faction" does not need to suffer it.

Or we drop it and move onto greener pastures because we also put big images in spoilers so that might get confusing.

Back on topic, anyone have ideas for the Blessed Blade that isn't "it's a relic blade"?

What's wrong with "relic blade"? I thought the ambiguity behind it was the best part - allowing the player to come up with detailed fluff for the weapon by him- or herself, rather than being tossed a prefabricated description.
Kind of like the generic Canoness compared to Celestine. Custom fluff ftw!

Or what exactly are you referring to?

 Lynata wrote:
What's wrong with "relic blade"? I thought the ambiguity behind it was the best part - allowing the player to come up with detailed fluff for the weapon by him- or herself, rather than being tossed a prefabricated description.
Kind of like the generic Canoness compared to Celestine. Custom fluff ftw!

Or what exactly are you referring to?

Well for Sisters it means S5, AP3. Great in some respects but not really worth the points cost it used to be anymore. I was just wondering if there were some ideas on how to update it.

Oh, statwise...

Well, I suppose the profile could, perhaps even should be tweaked, if only to keep up with the power creep and to make the Canoness a HQ to be feared just as other armies' leaders, too. I don't have any smart ideas regarding actual numbers, though - that's something I would leave to people more rules-savvy than I am.

Sorry to see you guys got screwed by GW :(. There really is potential for 'sisters' if they did a 'dark eldar' style reboot. Sadly this is seeming unlikely. Everybody has a favorite army and seeing dark eldar get re-vamped in such a fantastic way and seeing the sisters which are just as worthy of a nice release getting shafted instead is terrible.

Anyway I've got an idea for elite sisters for a new helmet design. Nothing special but i'd like the symbol of the 'sisters' to go over their eyebrow and maybe the bottom of the symbol goes along the ridge of the nose piece.

I'll show you a crappy drawn design of what I mean in a second ;P. Hopefully you guys can get ideas from it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Sorry to see you guys got screwed by GW :(. There really is potential for 'sisters' if they did a 'dark eldar' style reboot. Sadly this is seeming unlikely. Everybody has a favorite army and seeing dark eldar get re-vamped in such a fantastic way and seeing the sisters which are just as worthy of a nice release getting shafted instead is terrible.

Anyway I've got an idea for elite sisters for a new helmet design. Nothing special but i'd like the symbol of the 'sisters' to go over their eyebrow and maybe the bottom of the symbol goes along the ridge of the nose piece.

I'll show you a crappy drawn design of what I mean in a second ;P. Hopefully you guys can get ideas from it.

There is a helmet with a Fluer-de-Lys on it, it's just for vets and the like.

That aside, how are we gettining screwed in this release? It's being put out the same month as Dark Elves, so honestly anyone who had their fingers crossed for a plastic release on top of another army's release in the samemmonth was sadly dreaming. We're also getting more in this book than just about anyone expected to happen, so please save your condolences for the dead because we ain't there yet!

Ok so here's my idea for it. Dunno if it works for you guys but this is a general idea of the design I would like on the helmet. It could be fixed up by somebody with infinitely more talent so keep in my it's just there for ideas.



Btw yes I have no art experience whatsoever lol. Anyway yeah I need to make the image smaller somehow. I wasn't sure if I should add a lower part on the helmet or to keep it like that but the bottom of the symbol is for the nose piece whereas the left and right points of the symbol go around and over the eyes.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Ok so here's my idea for it. Dunno if it works for you guys but this is a general idea of the design I would like on the helmet. It could be fixed up by somebody with infinitely more talent so keep in my it's just there for ideas.

Spoiler:

Btw yes I have no art experience whatsoever lol. Anyway yeah I need to make the image smaller somehow. I wasn't sure if I should add a lower part on the helmet or to keep it like that but the bottom of the symbol is for the nose piece whereas the left and right points of the symbol go around and over the eyes.

Yeah, you're nailing something GW has covered there. To snag an image from GW proper:



Bottom middle is a Superior with a helmet design like you suggested, and flanking her are two Sisters with the plain Sabbat helmet.

Eh not quite as my version is a bit bigger and closer to the eyes and the bottom forms into a nose-piece. It's similar but it's a bit different. It'd be nice if somebody with actual artistic talent could work with the idea I sort of have and maybe add something else to it.

Know what I want?

Sabine HQ choice to take the Chaplain role, with the potential for a bodyguard unit of Frateris (not Redemptionists, those are already part of the Imperial Cult, just representing the locals she's whipped up) - the Frateris could either be Feral Worlders (+1 Weapon Skill, 2 CCWs), Death Worlders (+1 Initiative, CCW + Laspistol) or Hive Worlders (+1 Ballistic Skill, Laspistol + Lasgun). Sabine herself grants any unit she joins Acts of Faith as a special rule, including allied units, and has an AoF that... well, I'm not sure what would be appropriate. ^^;

Pronatus squad in Elites who have strange relics and wargear, and are Scoring to represent "this is what we came here for!"

As for the Blessed Weapon, I think that having different forms would be good. Make there a Blessed version of maces, swords and axes. Each one grants an additional +2 strength and +1 AP on top of the base rating (so +4 Str AP3 maces, +2 Str AP2 swords, and +3 Str AP1 axes). Make them Specialist or Two-handed to balance them out a bit. Maces become anti-meq, swords are anti-terminator, and axes are an alternate choice to maces for anti-tank work (Str6 is plenty against most tanks, when combined with AP1).

Lynata wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Some have proposed novices as a fodder unit, but when you consider that the SoB novices would have gone through training at the Schola Progenium just like Arbites, Stormtroopers, and Commisars... None of those are fodder units and thus I can't believe SoB novices would be either.

It depends on how you define "fodder unit". As Psienesis said, TT-wise, any unit in the troops section of any army would qualify for this term, yet fluffwise that doesn't mean they are meant to be. I'd regard Novices in the same light. Actually, Battle Sisters too.

But the truly interesting thing about your comparison?

"Cadet Commissars are allocated to Commissar Training Squads by the Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard regiment. [...] The Commissar Training Squad accompanies Imperial Guard forces into battle and takes part in some of the fiercest fighting."
- WD #115

I define fodder unit as suggesting SoB novices are on the same level as Frateris militia as one person did. Even the commissar cadet rules from way back when didn't portray them like a rabble.

It's important that if Novices were included they have to make sense... They aren't Arbites in training or Stormtroopeers in training or Commissars in training they are SoB in training. To reduce that notion of SoB to that type of unit doesn't really consider the significance of their training. Maybe I'm mistaken but even before becoming novices they will have received a basic training superior to standard guardsmen.

For Novices to be inclusion worthy they need to bring something unique. By themselves I don't believe they do, but they do bring narrative opportunity. My suggestion is this: don't make the unit so much about the Novices as it should be about the Sister who oversees their training. A troop choice with some what of a mid-level character. This embraces that image of an older nun overseeing the young and impressionable. In making the unit about the character the unit can conceptually be so many more things.

Personally, if they were to add a second troop choice to the list, I'd want them to perform something the Sisters might normally do, that isn't covered by the current units. Whether you agree that the fluff would allow novice squads or not doesn't change the fact that they're just Sisters in worse armor doing the exact same thing.

In keeping with the idea that Sisters defend shrines, temples and the like, how about a unit that is made specifically for defending them from the rabble and mob of heretics attempting to batter down the door. Take a basic sister squad, take away their bolter/bolt pistol, give them a storm shield (or lesser version of the same, basically an invuln over their PA) and some kind of maul. Sororitas Riot Police if you like. Give them infiltrate to represent their common deployment in defense of Sacred sights/items, ostensibly onto objectives. But if the unit infiltrates onto an objective, that objective is worth one additional point to the opposing player if they capture it. Perhaps an AoF for the unit akin to Reanimation Protocols, any models suffering an unsaved wound that phase can be brought back to the table in coherency of an existing model on a 5+, if the unit is able to claim, or contest their "holy" objective any models lost that phase can be brought back to the table on a 4+.

As much as I like St. Celestine, I don't like the fact that the Canoness has been such a dysmal HQ choice. I think naming your Saint should be just that, you want to use a different name for her, go ahead. Let the Canoness be the model that lets you customize your force.

I think that whether the Cannoness becomes a viable unit will now depend on

a) What the relics do and how much they are.
b) Any changes (if any) to Celestine. I am assuming they will put her pts up but hoping not If they do giving her a AP2 would be welcome........

 dracpanzer wrote:
Personally, if they were to add a second troop choice to the list, I'd want them to perform something the Sisters might normally do, that isn't covered by the current units. Whether you agree that the fluff would allow novice squads or not doesn't change the fact that they're just Sisters in worse armor doing the exact same thing.

In keeping with the idea that Sisters defend shrines, temples and the like, how about a unit that is made specifically for defending them from the rabble and mob of heretics attempting to batter down the door. Take a basic sister squad, take away their bolter/bolt pistol, give them a storm shield (or lesser version of the same, basically an invuln over their PA) and some kind of maul. Sororitas Riot Police if you like.

I would absolutely love that. Everyone keeps harping on about meatshields for their army so I like the idea of a unit solely designed for protection with minimal damage output.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think that whether the Cannoness becomes a viable unit will now depend on

a) What the relics do and how much they are.
b) Any changes (if any) to Celestine. I am assuming they will put her pts up but hoping not If they do giving her a AP2 would be welcome........

Celestians becoming better would also make her more useful. As I've said, hopeful Celestians have gotten something to make them viable. They'd sync well with the Canoness.

Hmm they do need something good to make them playable especially now that the Canoness can ride with a 9 woman BS squad in a rhino.....or with 5 in a Immolator...

Artficer armour seems too much as they didn't give the Cannoness that option without maybe using a relic. Again it would have been a good thing for the Cannoness but oh well.
Relic Blades would be cool

but minimum is +1 WS, +1 I I think......

 dracpanzer wrote:
As much as I like St. Celestine, I don't like the fact that the Canoness has been such a dysmal HQ choice. I think naming your Saint should be just that, you want to use a different name for her, go ahead. Let the Canoness be the model that lets you customize your force.

I made the Palatine a character who must wear a Seraphim flight pack, but makes Seraphim a troops choice. The Canoness had the option to wear either a flight pack or the Cloak of Saint Aspira, but not both, and could among other things replace her bolter with a heavy weapon - either a heavy flamer or a heavy bolter with suspensors.

I've been scribbling down notes for a Sisters update fandex thing (dragging a lot of old stuff and updating it, re-tweaking what we have, but nothing that is actually -new-) but I'm also playing wait and see on this new codex before I go running off to do just that.

Maybe I should just do a fandex update on a different army instead.

Heh. Believe it or not, I'm slowing down on mine too to see what Saturday brings. (Yes, really, this is what my homebrewer looks like dialed down to "medium").

My thought for Celestians was Stormbolters, Power Weapons, and Artificer Armour for everyone. Who cares if that makes them the equal of Marine Honor Guard? The Ecclesiarchy is richer than the Astartes and can bless into its hardware whatever capabilities it can't buy.... But I'll wait and see if GW does something a little less over the top.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Heh. Believe it or not, I'm slowing down on mine too to see what Saturday brings. (Yes, really, this is what my homebrewer looks like dialed down to "medium").

My thought for Celestians was Stormbolters, Power Weapons, and Artificer Armour for everyone. Who cares if that makes them the equal of Marine Honor Guard? The Ecclesiarchy is richer than the Astartes and can bless into its hardware whatever capabilities it can't buy.... But I'll wait and see if GW does something a little less over the top.

Celestians and Canoness in Artificer Armor standard seemed a given for me just because they needed something to give them a leg up over BSS, plus it makes them seem more special and elite inside of the army itself (especially if the Canoness and the Celestians are the only 2+'s since we don't need Terminator Equivs).

I'm still playing with ideas though. A 3+ might not be bad for example if they have a native 5++. But I'm just speaking off the top of my head there.

For me, I gave Celestians equipment and stats to make them assault veterans. WS4 and I4, plus bp+chainsword, plus Holy Hatred (the C:WH version), plus the ability to purchase power weapons in place of special/heavy weapons.

So in my fandex, one could have a five member Celestian squad with two power swords/axes/spears and an eviscerator, which combined with the stats (which were really just C:WH stats that the pdf codex nerfed) allowed them to be a competent, if not necessarily spectacular, assault unit. Properly equipped Canonesses with them as retinue, as well as proper uses of Acts of Faith, could easily turn this in to a vicious assault unit.

 Melissia wrote:
For me, I gave Celestians equipment and stats to make them assault veterans. WS4 and I4, plus bp+chainsword, plus Holy Hatred (the C:WH version), plus the ability to purchase power weapons in place of special/heavy weapons.

So in my fandex, one could have a five member Celestian squad with two power swords/axes/spears and an eviscerator, which combined with the stats (which were really just C:WH stats that the pdf codex nerfed) allowed them to be a competent, if not necessarily spectacular, assault unit. Properly equipped Canonesses with them as retinue, as well as proper uses of Acts of Faith, could easily turn this in to a vicious assault unit.

I don't think they should primarily be assault unit but basically be able to be either be assault or ranged based. Or maybe even let them double up and do both if you want to spend the points on it.