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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

That sounds... uncomfortable.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

That sounds... uncomfortable.

The purpose of life is to suffer, after all...

Ah yes the Brassiere of Holy Fire, second in important only to the Garter Belt of Large Inward Turned Spikes!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ish't that what the old Brassiere of Holy Fire was?

Now that was a CCW that doubled as a combi-flamer IIRC. I'll have to check my codex when I get home to know for sure.

I'll have to check my codex when I get home

Why does that suddenly read like a euphemism?

 Psienesis wrote:

I'll have to check my codex when I get home

Why does that suddenly read like a euphemism?

Because your mind is in the gutter and you need to go stand in the corner until it isn't.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!...

See I was thinking they'd have a Thurible and a bolt pistol. They wouldn't need a book because they know all the prayers, cants and hymns they sing by heart.

But that was just my take.

No, your idea is more awesome. So they're close combatant liturgists... which is so utterly in keeping with the Sisters.

I'm now seeing them more as being attached to a squad -- like an IG commissar (which is how i think Hospitallers should work to, actually) - rather than as a whole unit on their own, especially since in the church services I've seen you rarely have more than one thurifer in the procession.

Here we go:

Brazier of Holy Fire wrote:
This holy artefact is said to light the faces of the faithful and leave the impure shrouded in darkness. In battle, the brazier can be wielded like a weapon in close combat and contains enough fuel to spray a jet of flames at the enemy. The Brazier of Holy Fire counts as a close combat weapon. In addition, it may be used once per battle like a flamer. All of the normal rules for a flamer apply.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Re choirs: I want them in Power Armor with bolt pistol in one hand and hymnal in the other, like the Hospitaller (who has Chirugeon's tools rather than a hymnal, obviously). Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition!...

See I was thinking they'd have a Thurible and a bolt pistol. They wouldn't need a book because they know all the prayers, cants and hymns they sing by heart.

But that was just my take.

No, your idea is more awesome. So they're close combatant liturgists... which is so utterly in keeping with the Sisters.

I'm now seeing them more as being attached to a squad -- like an IG commissar (which is how i think Hospitallers should work to, actually) - rather than as a whole unit on their own, especially since in the church services I've seen you rarely have more than one thurifer in the procession.

That depends on the size of the procession, and when the Ecclesiarchy goes to war I image there can be a lot of them (hell we have them all over the place as is anyways ).

Yeah, that would be the elite version on the Melee Weapons list for Superiors etc. Your basic "battle thurible" would probably be some mind of strength-boosting, initiative-dropping CCW without the once-per-game flamer attack. (Um, does that make the Brazier a Combi-Thurible?)

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, that would be the elite version on the Melee Weapons list for Superiors etc. Your basic "battle thurible" would probably be some mind of strength-boosting, initiative-dropping CCW without the once-per-game flamer attack. (Um, does that make the Brazier a Combi-Thurible?)

We were looking at the Thurible giving a +1 Cover save and causing the unit hit with it to suffer a Blind check as the cloud of incense blocks their vision. A bit different than a CCW with Combi-Flamer attachment I think.

Again, that's cooler than my idea. Awesome.

I haven't really nailed down a good list of buffs from the Choir yet, so that's still a ways off, but yeah, Thuribles and holy music/chants seem appropriate.

Besides, weaponizing something that is found in a church (see the Exorcist) is COMPLETELY in the realm of what Sisters do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then I remember this is game with Baledrakes, Hellhounds (and their poisonous counterparts) and other nasty cover denial options out there. D:

Sorry, old DnD joke.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I haven't really nailed down a good list of buffs from the Choir yet, so that's still a ways off, but yeah, Thuribles and holy music/chants seem appropriate.

Besides, weaponizing something that is found in a church (see the Exorcist) is COMPLETELY in the realm of what Sisters do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then I remember this is game with Baledrakes, Hellhounds (and their poisonous counterparts) and other nasty cover denial options out there. D:

True, pretty much every army has at least some kind of Template weapon -- and it takes a heck of a cover save to be a better option than taking your 3+ cover save, unless the enemy has a lot of AP:2.

How about treating it as a Power Maul with the added traits of Two-Handed, Concussive and Blind, to represent the swirling smoke of a successful hit obscuring the vision of the target unit?

The Sisters aren't affected because (1) it's holy smoke that only blinds unbelievers and (2) they've tuned their optics to see through it, just the way modern militaries don't jam the wavelengths they're using themselves.

Then a +1 cover save vs shooting can be the cherry on top.


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PS: +1 to cover save should only be if the bearer forgoes shooting that turn to swing it around.

Also, I realize this is starting to look more and more like a Melee weapon for Superiors, Priests, & above.

You know you swing a Thurible while you walk, so there is no reason it'd have to be "activated" every turn. Even if you stand still, this is a game where people often wield bolters one handed to no ill effect.

I'm by no means very qualified to suggest things here, but I was pondering the recruits discussion that had been going on, and I was wondering what you guys thought about having a mixed sisters squad with battle sisters evaluating recruits in the field as a final form of test.

I'm thinking of a unit that functions similar to the BT crusader squads but with more of the Judge Dredd eval thrown in there ("you do any number of things wrong, you fail...and probably die") instead of the pledging frat boy feel I get from crusader squads.

Maybe make it 0-1 troops choice 10-20 models (20-30? Seems unwieldy) and you can't take more sisters than recruits and vice versa. Give the recruits carapace armor and make their stats the same with lower leadership and possibly lower WS. Basically representing that this is the final test, and they're pretty much trained up at this point but they haven't seen the full horrors of the galaxy yet.

Nope. Still don't like the idea. Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars. Yeeeeaah. I'm not a fan.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nope. Still don't like the idea. Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars. Yeeeeaah. I'm not a fan.

Yeah, I kind of figured that copying other armies wouldn't be encouraged.

What were the troops choices back in the day? I don't like the limited troops options sisters have now.

godswildcard wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nope. Still don't like the idea. Now we're not only putting our trainees on the table, we're ripping off Templars. Yeeeeaah. I'm not a fan.

Yeah, I kind of figured that copying other armies wouldn't be encouraged.

What were the troops choices back in the day? I don't like the limited troops options sisters have now.

You're basically looking at them. We had a period where we had Storm Troopers when the Inquisition was in the book (along with some other stuff) but if you go back further we've always been a bit of small codex in terms of selection.

I've got my fingers crossed for their eventual update fixing that though.

I always imagined the novitiates on the battlefield either being used in desperate defenses (when they'd die anyway if the line was breached), or being given a "trial by fire" as part of the final rite to earn the right to be a full fledged Battle Sister.

 Melissia wrote:
I always imagined the novitiates on the battlefield either being used in desperate defenses (when they'd die anyway if the line was breached), or being given a "trial by fire" as part of the final rite to earn the right to be a full fledged Battle Sister.

The thing that bugs me is that they aren't assigned an Order until after they're given their power armor and hold their ceremony on Terra. So who exactly would give them a "trial by fire"? Seems like an unnecessary step and complication to a fairly straightforward career path otherwise.

But getting beyond that, from what little we can tell, unless the new codex changes that, it seems Sisters all go through Ophelia VII or Terra for their training, so unless one of those is attacked there isn't a reason for them to be fielded either.

Like I said, we'll know more at the end of the week (if it ever gets here).

 SisterSydney wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I haven't really nailed down a good list of buffs from the Choir yet, so that's still a ways off, but yeah, Thuribles and holy music/chants seem appropriate.

Besides, weaponizing something that is found in a church (see the Exorcist) is COMPLETELY in the realm of what Sisters do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then I remember this is game with Baledrakes, Hellhounds (and their poisonous counterparts) and other nasty cover denial options out there. D:

True, pretty much every army has at least some kind of Template weapon -- and it takes a heck of a cover save to be a better option than taking your 3+ cover save, unless the enemy has a lot of AP:2.

How about treating it as a Power Maul with the added traits of Two-Handed, Concussive and Blind, to represent the swirling smoke of a successful hit obscuring the vision of the target unit?

The Sisters aren't affected because (1) it's holy smoke that only blinds unbelievers and (2) they've tuned their optics to see through it, just the way modern militaries don't jam the wavelengths they're using themselves.

Then a +1 cover save vs shooting can be the cherry on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: +1 to cover save should only be if the bearer forgoes shooting that turn to swing it around.

Also, I realize this is starting to look more and more like a Melee weapon for Superiors, Priests, & above.

Power mauls are already concussive, so you don't need to add that.

For a non-HQ version, I'd go with S+2, AP- concussive, blind, 1-shot flamer CC weapon. You trade the maul's AP4 for blind and the flame hit. Cost should probably be close, might be 5-10 points more, then a power weapon. Specialist/two handed would depend on the modeling behind it, and might knock the price down. Not getting an extra attack from your BP is a disad.

If you want to go with a holy relic, HQ only kind of weapons you can pull the stops out and go crazy.
S+2, AP4. Concussive, Blind, grants user (and thus her unit) stealth. One shot (heavy?) flamer. I'd go with specialist, rather then two handed. Not sure if you have anything else to pair it with, but it leaves the door open.

You could layer more on if you don't mind the points skyrocketing. AP3, shrouded rather then stealth, or a pure one-handed weapon. Soulfire, or whatever that catch-on-fire power is, would also be appropriate.

Hmmm. Good catch on Concussive. I'd like to keep the "battle thurifer" and the Brazier of Holy Fire separate, though, so one's a censer full of smoke that blinds and the other is a censer full of fire that burns, because awesome.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I always imagined the novitiates on the battlefield either being used in desperate defenses (when they'd die anyway if the line was breached), or being given a "trial by fire" as part of the final rite to earn the right to be a full fledged Battle Sister.

The thing that bugs me is that they aren't assigned an Order until after they're given their power armor and hold their ceremony on Terra. So who exactly would give them a "trial by fire"? Seems like an unnecessary step and complication to a fairly straightforward career path otherwise.

But getting beyond that, from what little we can tell, unless the new codex changes that, it seems Sisters all go through Ophelia VII or Terra for their training, so unless one of those is attacked there isn't a reason for them to be fielded either.

The Imperium's in a bad state.... Even if Novice training is centralized on Ophelia and Terra (logistically difficult but not impossible), the Segmentum Solar itself has come under attack, and if you want to get really "Last Days of Rome" or "Blue Vs. Green in Byzantium," you could end up with factional fighting between different Imperial institutions on Terra, or even between Ecclesiarchical factions on Ophelia.

Imperium is in a bad state, but it's by no means THAT bad.

It's a stagnant corrupt mess trying to push through another day, but it's still there.

You say the Sementum Solar itself came under attack, do you mean the Heresy, or some post event I haven't heard about?

And I really feel your stretching on how bad it is in the Imperium. This isn't the last week of Rome, it's 2 minutes to midnight on the Doomsday clock, and it's locked there. If you think the Imperium is bad now, consider this:

They have standing militaries (Guard and Marines), trade between hundreds of thousands of planets, a working communication system (even if it's a bit slow, Astropaths do the job nicely), a means of travelling relatively safely though the galaxy thanks to Navagators, a church that is actually held accountable for corruption and so many damned citizens they can't even count them all.

I don't think they're doing -that badly-. Yes, there are planets under constant war, and there are invasions a thousand times over, but that's what happens here on our little dustball all the time. It's just magnified to 1,000% because of the scale of the setting.

But maybe I'm too optimistic, or I just don't feel like being a contortionist to make my ideas fit the limited fluff we have. Either way, I don't agree with the whole "let's put our knock off vet guard on the table and call them novices instead of working out other ideas".

Frateris Militia, Zealots and Redemptionists all did the cheap troop idea better, and were more original. They fit the theme better and worked for the setting more. They played up the grim dark nature of the universe without us needing to be yet another faction who throws our trainees through a threshing machine to make them "prove themselves".

Agreed if they still had the moulds they should have just done the Frateris Militia / Redemptionists as a Troops

Maybe they will - crossed fingers

 Mr Morden wrote:
Agreed if they still had the moulds they should have just done the Frateris Militia / Redemptionists as a Troops

Maybe they will - crossed fingers

IIRC GW has all the masters to all the models they've ever made on "file", unless they purged them like the BBC did old Docotr Who episodes that is.

Outside of that it's not like we can't convert stuff. Like I've mentioned before, the Flagellant mob looks like a good basis.

Yeah, but it'd be nice to be official - I still have my Redemptionist gang .

But yeah cross selling would have been easy with the Empire models etc...........

godswildcard wrote:
I'm by no means very qualified to suggest things here, but I was pondering the recruits discussion that had been going on, and I was wondering what you guys thought about having a mixed sisters squad with battle sisters evaluating recruits in the field as a final form of test.

I'm thinking of a unit that functions similar to the BT crusader squads but with more of the Judge Dredd eval thrown in there ("you do any number of things wrong, you fail...and probably die") instead of the pledging frat boy feel I get from crusader squads.

Maybe make it 0-1 troops choice 10-20 models (20-30? Seems unwieldy) and you can't take more sisters than recruits and vice versa. Give the recruits carapace armor and make their stats the same with lower leadership and possibly lower WS. Basically representing that this is the final test, and they're pretty much trained up at this point but they haven't seen the full horrors of the galaxy yet.

Fluff-wise, I like the idea... crunch-wise, I'm not so sure...

Are you meaning that this unit is a mix of Sisters and Novices or that you can have no more Novices in the Army than you do Battle Sisters? So if you took the 20-girl unit you'd have to have no fewer than 4 squads of 5 Sisters each in the rest of the Army? Or the 20 model mob can be no more than 10 Novices with 10 Sisters?

If the balance works in reverse, this is basically cutting the army in half, and I'm not sure I like that. Why couldn't there be more Sisters than Novices? What if this battle on the tabletop is one of the training centers being attacked? Or the transport from training planet to Terra for final vows is forced to drop out of the Warp en route (Gellar Field failure) and is ambushed by Dark Eldar raiders? In either event, I can see arguments being made to support having more Novices than Sisters, or more Sisters than Novices.

He means that in that squad, there have to be more Sisters than Novices, just like the BT Crusader squads have to have more Initiates than Novices.

Armageddon is in Segmentum Solar.

More to the point, the Sol system itself has been attacked by the Necrons, who managed to land a ship on Mars, and by a combined force of Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks and Soul Drinkers during the Second Siege of the Emperor's Palace.

Hrm.... I don't play BT so I'm not familiar with how those squads work, but I would think blending those various armor and stat saves might get a bit cumbersome to gameplay, especially considering having varying WS and Ld to the squad.