In Deadzone, it depends. As soon as your group has the guy who finds replacement figs for all his guys in more favorable poses, that's when people start to stirred up.
As long as those guys are non-existent, no one cares.
Jake didn't seem too fussed about it in the rulebook, and remember if you're all tiny and hunched over it hurts your own ability to see over obstacles as well. But making a deliberately tiny approach at something with the indirect rule would be substantially dickish.
Most of my observations are theoretical and from the PoV that they are things I like the idea of and will create, but I rarely get to play and so legality and fairness rarely come up. So that's my frame of reference anyway.
Yeah, I am disagreeing with Jake on that myself. The theory works for guys that are equally good at fighting and shooting. However, if you've not got a gun, you want to be as small a model as possible and if you do have a gun, you want to be as tall as possible.
Warren at Beasts of War was running into an issue in one of his previous games where his sniper couldn't see over the barricade he was sitting behind.
I've noticed that, I plan to strategically place crates around prime vantage points so models can use them if they need them, the tradeoff being more visibility means more visible.
Compel wrote: Yeah, I am disagreeing with Jake on that myself. The theory works for guys that are equally good at fighting and shooting. However, if you've not got a gun, you want to be as small a model as possible and if you do have a gun, you want to be as tall as possible.
Warren at Beasts of War was running into an issue in one of his previous games where his sniper couldn't see over the barricade he was sitting behind.
Yep. Finding the tiniest plague dogs you can is to your advantage.
It doesn't really matter if Jake is fussed about it or not. Apparently he's never met a power gamer.
The comment in the book is probably really meant more for arms sticking up and out or flat at the side too, not bringing entirely different and much smaller minis to the table. Fortunately I have a Zero Tolerance policy for people gaming the system of what could otherwise be a fun game, and barely get to play anything anyway. I feel for anyone who has to deal with powergamers and WAAC individuals on a regular and unavoidable basis.
I just sit the rifle barrel over the barricade myself. Sure the model isn't sitting completely flat, but it makes sense enough to me. and is usually sturdy enough.
Zees are pretty awesome, can hide *anywhere*... and then get promptly eaten by whatever melee monstrosity fancies them as an easy snack before tripling and getting a free move/fight. :p
Bwahaha! Sounds amusing, I bet Freya is pretty good at skulking to the other side of the board as well.
Ooooh, well I've already seen my season 6 team, those Koris are too neat to not get at least 8. I almost want to get the hobgoblins too so I can get a third Hulk as that's likely the number of them you'll need for a Warpath unit.
^ That's awesome, gonna have to share it with the KS comments.
I'm loving the Koris....
Demented octolimbed cyclopean trans-dimensional tricksters who like to play games, torment the locals and generally mess things up just for fun.
As far as concepts go, it couldn't contrast any better with the humdrum "fantasy goblins and troll with american football gear in space" team also part of the same stretch.
scarletsquig wrote: As far as concepts go, it couldn't contrast any better with the humdrum "fantasy goblins and troll with american football gear in space" team also part of the same stretch.
The character design for the Koris is good but not a must-have for me, and unrestrained teleportation is a stupid thing to allow onto the pitch.
The Hobgoblins and Hulks are boring as always. It wouldn't have been hard to come up with a "big guys and little guys" team that doesn't fall back on the goblins.
Mantic wrote:@ SS - The remaining two Season 6 teams are new races as well
Damn. That makes it that much less likely that there will be a second must-have team.
I like the Koris the only issue I can see is how they will sit on the base as they legs will need something under them to connect to the mini bases platform shoes time again!
The addition of a Hulk to the Hobgoblins makes them a far more interesting team, not one I'd buy outside of a Frenzy pledge but still more characterful than I though they'd be. I hope they are quite different to the Marauders rules wise.
Koris aren't a must-have for me either, but I'd be pretty comfortable with them being my season 6 choice if the remaining two teams aren't more interesting. It's really going to be tough to beat (or equal) season 5's sphyr, rebs, and crystallan. We may be seeing a lot of "can I get two season 5 teams instead of 1 season 5 and one season 6 team?" "No." "Why not?" etc. . .
Providing the hobgoblins have a striker or two, playstyle wise they might be the team for me. I've felt quite comfortable with my Zzor during games but end up cursing the strikers who are really strikers.
I'm probably good on hobgoblins, if I want some I'll get them retail. Koris currently free season six team. Hard to choose between the rebs, sphyr, and crystallans. I pretty much have to get the rebs to flesh out my DZ faction, but the crystallans are too damn cool. And when you consider the giant shark... Sphyr are pretty hard to miss out on as well. I'll probably pick up the spares on the survey. Even though I won't want to spend the money on them, I'd still be happy if the last two season six teams are as cool as those mentioned above. And if there's a season seven... Much value to be had by all, especially frenzy
ncshooter426 wrote: So for someone with zero dreadball knowledge, can someone fill me in on the lore and whatnot
It's the future. Mankind travels to the stars.
Corporations run most everything/are essentially the govt.
Aliens exist and interact but often have conflict with the Corps due to conflicts over planets, resources, displacement, genocide-type stuff, etc.
In the shiny core worlds of the Corporation, DreadBall is a carefully marketed and controlled money-making sport.
Bread and circuses. The game is controlled by a governing body that changes things to keep them interesting/populace occupied.
In DreadBall Xtreme, you see how the fringe worlds play DB. Virtually no rules and the seamy side showing.
Aliens that couldn't show their face/tentacles/whatever in the core, throw down in the violent, unregulated madhouse that is a DBX pitch.
Regarding "exploiting", or at least just discussing the implementation of Deadzone LoS, Beasts of War discussed it in their latest Weekender, where Warren said he had his first argument about Deadzone rules. He admitted as much that, as written, the enforcer sniper couldn't see over the barricade he was standing behind, but he wanted to take a more liberal approach and say "well, he'd obviously peek over it since in a standing position it would be easy". His opponent preferrered Rules as Written. Direct link to the timecode (5:50) in the weekender vid for those interested.
(hmmm this is the dreadball thread... but it's relevant to the convo... I'm torn... what the hell *submit*)
Also, screw sphyr for Deadzone (though I do like that too). Crystallen all the way!! I swear I'm getting a second team of them for Deadzone if it's the last thing I do. Then figuring out how to convert and paint clear plastic to look awesome with my horrible modeling skills... someone better than me please make a good tutorial for it ; p
I think I'll be going for the Rebs from Season 5. I get an alt Sorak that way, and three other Reb alien races that may or may not ever show up in some future Deadzone release. And I'm kind of stuck on the Rin Nomad.
The Crystallans are a very cool concept design, and Mantic have an excellent sculptor lined up to do them (by hand) - the guy who did the Teratons - but I don't know how I'd mod them to look Deadzone suitable, and Mantic has said many times during the KS that they'd like to bring the Crystallans properly into Deadzone someday anyhow. I'll probably wait and buy their next DZ appearance, whenever that is.
Sphyr I'm going to wait on, too. I have a feeling Sphyr forces will also make it to Deadzone eventually.
I'm going to try and keep this one small and stay close to the Rampage pledge. I do want some models to proxy into Deadzone, but I don't want a truckload of them, as inevitably I'll never get around to modding them all. I've thought several times about just pledging $1 and ordering my Deadzone fodder a la carte from the survey, but I'm pretty sure Rampage will have enough things I want by the end that it will be a better way to go.
I feel the same, Vermonter. I could do the math and see if the bits that I wanted added up to less or more than Rampage, but the difference is liable to be marginal enough (or even in rampage's favor!) and I don't mind to get a neat game out of it. I will have to add some things though, i they're at all reasonable on their acrylic window/door bits... I'll be all upons.
I think I'll try to paint the not-crystal parts of the crystallans and leave the crystal parts out of it. Then Those will get a wash or two, maybe an edge highlight, but I want the light to still get through. Possibly just a dip, that usually does a little bit of both.
Vermonter wrote: but I don't want a truckload of them, as inevitably I'll never get around to modding them all.
Like *that's* ever a valid reason to not spend money. pfft.
I know - sometimes this place feels like Al-Anon for miniature collectors. Pragmatically speaking, I should probably never buy another miniature, as I have plenty (not like most of you guys, but plenty) and will most likely be dead before they're all painted. I have this fantasy of buying no more miniatures for two years and just working assiduously on my backlog.
Then Mantic rings my doorbell and says, "I'm going door-to-door with this incredible offer!"
And there I am, pledging on Kickstarter again.
But what the hey, I'm human*, and buying miniatures is fun. But for Dreadball Xtreme, Rampage will be plenty for me.
Yonan wrote: Also, screw sphyr for Deadzone (though I do like that too). Crystallen all the way!! I swear I'm getting a second team of them for Deadzone if it's the last thing I do. Then figuring out how to convert and paint clear plastic to look awesome with my horrible modeling skills... someone better than me please make a good tutorial for it ; p
Brush-on matt varnish as a primer, inkwash to shade, gloss varnish is what I'm thinking.
Going to use my glowy green martian as a test subject.
Yonan wrote: Also, screw sphyr for Deadzone (though I do like that too). Crystallen all the way!! I swear I'm getting a second team of them for Deadzone if it's the last thing I do. Then figuring out how to convert and paint clear plastic to look awesome with my horrible modeling skills... someone better than me please make a good tutorial for it ; p
Brush-on matt varnish as a primer, inkwash to shade, gloss varnish is what I'm thinking.
Going to use my glowy green martian as a test subject.
I've painted clear resin figures before. Just a good washing with soap and water to get off any mold release like I do with all resin figures, then used different inks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking at the goblin team, there is no way they can cast face masks like those shown in the concept art in the material they are going to use, and provide a one piece mini with a paintable face.
I asked about this in the KS comments and was told 'this is just concept art, the sculptor will decide how to bring this to life.
Yet we are asked to pledge based on concept art.
I guess I would be happier if they told the artist, 'Hey, we're making these out of material X and will be preassembling them, so take that into account as you design these figures and sketch them out', and the artist then did so.
I worry when we know up front concept art is not going to end up looking like the product we eventually will receive.
Yonan wrote: Awesome idea with the washes, thanks guys! That gives a great effect Jake, thanks for the pics to illustrate the idea.
I asked mantic to make the crystal dudes clear instead of blue, just because clear will give all of us a lot more options when it comes to painting them. I really hope they go with clear instead of blue.
Glad to see that we're finally about to get over the stubborn $500k stretch.
I hope people don't mind, but I've updated the title to reflect mini count and value of the sweet spot pledge in the hopes of attracting a few more backers as this moves into the last few days.
The value is getting pretty good now, Rampage sits at 60% discount + free shipping, with room for even more stuff.
Rampage has already beaten the original Striker level in mini count (and comes with 4 giants instead of one, and includes the multiplayer expansion rather than having it as an add-on), so it really is becoming a rather good deal.
That is probably what RRP suggests, so hit it with the 80% stick and you're looking at still doubling your investment after RRRP (second real as my tongue in check reference to us internet cheapskates).
Mantic has things priced accordingly to reflect what they'll eventually be. Teams are $15 versus $20. MVPs are $5 versus $8. Giants were a great deal before and still are at $10.
So it seems much safer to say you will legitimately be getting a deal/discount by purchasing through the KS, which is good. Getting spares of any of the non-Giant MVPs turned out to be a loss.
So the game sounds cool, and there were some favorable reviews of it (original). I might get in on it - if nothing else, the mini's aren't half bad lookin'
There's the Blaine MVP from last time for $5.
There's 10 of the new Deadzone zombies for $8.
There's 10 doors and windows for the Deadzone terrain for $10.
And there's a new stretch goal at $515k for a medibot.
I don't think the design is very well thought out. It's not shaped like a medibot should be shaped.
I assumed that med bot was some sort of machine built for something else that just got put into service on the pitch.
With Deadzone zombies popping up, makes me wonder if we'll see any other DZ stuff.
Unfortunately at this point that's about the only way they're going to get me to stay.
Try as I might, I cannot convince anyone in my family to want to sit down and play. They're not interested in tabletop sports, and when I try to push the bit of the ultraviolence angle, they'd all rather just throw down in a real battle instead
A shame, since there's so much neat stuff on offer here I hate to buy it all and have it just collect dust. I've already go enough games that are already doing that for free!
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I assumed that med bot was some sort of machine built for something else that just got put into service on the pitch.
Then they could still pick a machine that was a closer fit for what they needed.
A medbot needs to do three things:
1. It needs to be able to pick up the wounded individual.
2. It needs to keep the motive machinery out of the way while picking them up.
3. It should ideally be able to administer medical aid.
For this purpose, I would suggest something like a modified robotic forklift. A tauric chassis would provide stability while lifting, with a low-slung centre of gravity supported by a longer wheel base as well as providing a convenient place to put the gurney. A pair of long, slim, strong arms like the tines of a forklift would be used to lift the casualty, then the torso would swivel 180 degrees to place them on the robot's back. A second smaller pair of arms could be used to administer first aid.
Gotta go look at the doors and other stuff now that I'm home with a monitor. Medbot is meh, but we'll see.
Pffft. I'm glad they added the additional frenzy levels, they got us over the 500k hump and pushed us well towards our 525k goal. I mean for pete's sake, the last frenzy level had a 1 in it. You don't put a one if you aren't planning on putting a 2, I think it was a smart move to keep things going forward. Hopefully the addons do a bit more. I'd like to see the first two season six teams locked in by the time the 48 hour notice drops so it's fairly obvious the other two will make it in for those people just coming back. Then if it goes super crazy, maybe we'll even break into season 7.
9 more MVPs? Gah that's too many Alt sculpts and potentially prones would be worth having over additional teams. Especially if the prones were included in the 15/25 an rampage freebie slots.
Looking over the acrylic door set, it looks like you'll have to cut off your door holding nib to make the acrylic piece fit in the frame. I'm sure the other door would still fit, but you couldn't clip it anymore.
I recall Mantic saying that the retail format for the boxes will be 8 players + 2 prones, so I'd expect it'll be highly likely to see some stretch goals to sort out that side of thing in the last few days.
Possible they might unlock the next two teams at $550k, and then roll out prones, mvps, alt sculpts and s6 rulebook from there up to a ~$750k-ish finish.
Yeah, seems like the sooner they get the last batch of teams locked in the more promising this will be to those on the fence and those just seeing all of it for the first time. And then they'll be happy to add additional MVPs, prones, alts, and whatnot as they go. Hopefully they fit the rulebook in during a nice solid rush so it doesn't slow things down.
porkuslime wrote: I am sad to report that according to my latest Mantic Newsletter..
the Frenzy pledge level was NOT as limited as originally determined.. they have opened up 35 more Frenzy spots.
Kinda wish they had stuck to their limited decision..
-P
What? Why? You hate people getting a deal?
Probably dislikes the tactic of being told there's only x days/hours/minutes left or else you won't get this awesome deal---when actually the deal was re-opened.
The windows and doors for the DZ terrain will finally see me pledge on this, obviously not a lot of money but it will increase the backer numbers by one.
porkuslime wrote: I am sad to report that according to my latest Mantic Newsletter..
the Frenzy pledge level was NOT as limited as originally determined.. they have opened up 35 more Frenzy spots.
Kinda wish they had stuck to their limited decision..
-P
What? Why? You hate people getting a deal?
Probably dislikes the tactic of being told there's only x days/hours/minutes left or else you won't get this awesome deal---when actually the deal was re-opened.
Correct. State one thing, and then STICK to it.. I am not a Frenzy backer, but I bet those that were pledging on Sunday felt time pressure to do so.. and this MIGHT cause some to drop their pledge..
scarletsquig wrote: I recall Mantic saying that the retail format for the boxes will be 8 players + 2 prones, so I'd expect it'll be highly likely to see some stretch goals to sort out that side of thing in the last few days.
They also have Keepers planned I don't see them doing them separately for retail as they are trying to cut down on individual blisters and DBX won't have boosters so the final team may be 8 players, 2 prones and a keeper.
Still a lot of MVPs alright, Hobgoblin MVP, 2 other Season 6 team MVPs the refbot MVP, 1 looks human, 1 just wants a hug, 1 is bizarre! the game has a lot of MVPs now.
But anyone who drops a earlier frenzy pledge will see it snapped up immediately.. I kind of assumed they were going to do it anyway so I'm not bothered personally. Hurt feelings aside, I think anything that keeps the total moving forward is for the good of the project and backers in general, though I understand the other side of it.
Shame about season 7 being unlikely, that really would have put Frenzy over the top. (If Squig is pessimistic about season 7, that's not a good sign.) I'm hoping Mantic will have a few tricks up their sleeves this weekend to ramp things up, besides what we already know is coming. (Although I am very curious about what the 4th Giant is going to be, now that we know it won't be a Marauder Hulk.)
I'm not sure about how my family would take Dreadball Xtreme. My son thinks the name is stupid, which made me laugh, but otherwise he hasn't expressed much interest. The thing is, while I think Deadzone is inherently more interesting to them as it is for Tamburlaine's family, Dreadball might be better for casual games. There's no line of sight rules, and the board configurations are much easier to set up.
This is a weird Mantic KS for me: I could really see pledging $1, Rampage, or Frenzy*, depending on how things go at the end.
*Yep, I'm considering it now. It's not worth it to me yet, but might get there by Sunday.
porkuslime wrote: I am sad to report that according to my latest Mantic Newsletter..
the Frenzy pledge level was NOT as limited as originally determined.. they have opened up 35 more Frenzy spots.
Kinda wish they had stuck to their limited decision..
-P
What? Why? You hate people getting a deal?
I found it annoying as well - not at all because I hate people getting a deal, but because it's another "Mantic - full of gak" moment as they desperately and transparently try to game us to manipulate the Kickstarter numbers. - And because I resent the attempt to "mine cart" the Frenzy pledge levels.
I'm just not feeling this campaign. I think I will pull my pledge at the end. I'd rather use the money for the Journey: Wrath of Demons PM, where all the models are gorgeous.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I assumed that med bot was some sort of machine built for something else that just got put into service on the pitch.
With Deadzone zombies popping up, makes me wonder if we'll see any other DZ stuff.
Unfortunately at this point that's about the only way they're going to get me to stay.
Try as I might, I cannot convince anyone in my family to want to sit down and play. They're not interested in tabletop sports, and when I try to push the bit of the ultraviolence angle, they'd all rather just throw down in a real battle instead
A shame, since there's so much neat stuff on offer here I hate to buy it all and have it just collect dust. I've already go enough games that are already doing that for free!
If you do not physically have the game, I wouldn't count out getting people to play this game.
As far as miniature games go, I've gotten nerds, jocks, goths, preps, emo, kids, adults, brothers, sisters, parents.......this game runs the table on "wide appeal" once folks see it. That thing that helps is seeing lots of humans on the pitch for the folks less into Fantasy and Sci-Fi. But they'll quickly warm up to it.
porkuslime wrote: I am sad to report that according to my latest Mantic Newsletter..
the Frenzy pledge level was NOT as limited as originally determined.. they have opened up 35 more Frenzy spots.
Kinda wish they had stuck to their limited decision..
-P
What? Why? You hate people getting a deal?
I found it annoying as well - not at all because I hate people getting a deal, but because it's another "Mantic - full of gak" moment as they desperately and transparently try to game us to manipulate the Kickstarter numbers. - And because I resent the attempt to "mine cart" the Frenzy pledge levels.
I'm just not feeling this campaign. I think I will pull my pledge at the end. I'd rather use the money for the Journey: Wrath of Demons PM, where all the models are gorgeous.
Because the better business decision is to let the KS stall out like it was and be happy stopping at Season 5
Earth Dragon wrote: That thing that helps is seeing lots of humans on the pitch for the folks less into Fantasy and Sci-Fi.
Then why is there only one human team?
Technically there is three. But straight up there is two
And there is not much more you would get from having multiple sets of human figures. It works fine having two rule sets for them. The rules show the contrast between the different races. You and your buddies are to play out the contrast within a race.
There really is no reason to be adding a bunch of humans teams into the mix. Maybe there is room for a another guard heavy template, but the models they have now would work just fine.
3? I count 2 and both are Corporation so they could be classified as 1 - Trontek and Void Sirens and Trontek could be anything under the armour (I know they are humans just saying) only the Void Sirens are clearly human. Convicts are mix raced including some humans but also other races.
porkuslime wrote: I am sad to report that according to my latest Mantic Newsletter..
the Frenzy pledge level was NOT as limited as originally determined.. they have opened up 35 more Frenzy spots.
Kinda wish they had stuck to their limited decision..
-P
What? Why? You hate people getting a deal?
I found it annoying as well - not at all because I hate people getting a deal, but because it's another "Mantic - full of gak" moment as they desperately and transparently try to game us to manipulate the Kickstarter numbers. - And because I resent the attempt to "mine cart" the Frenzy pledge levels.
I'm just not feeling this campaign. I think I will pull my pledge at the end. I'd rather use the money for the Journey: Wrath of Demons PM, where all the models are gorgeous.
Yes!
It really isn't a Kickstarter until Azazelx threatens to pull his pledge!
Yeah, in saying that though, perhaps people would have been happier if they had increased the gap a bit. Saying a whole £6 isn't enough to stop someone dropping down a pledge level if they're feeling antzy.
Whatever man. Get all pissy if you want. People were sending Mantic e-mails complaining about the folks posting in the comments section about how they had two accounts and were sitting on both EBs, effectively locking them out from grabbing a frenzy, which they made the deadline for.
So it's okay for the customers to game the system and screw us all over but it isn't okay for Mantic to adjust the plan so we get more freebies by breaking more goals and increasing the total and giving what customers are begging for?
Earth Dragon wrote: Whatever man. Get all pissy if you want. People were sending Mantic e-mails complaining about the folks posting in the comments section about how they had two accounts and were sitting on both EBs, effectively locking them out from grabbing a frenzy, which they made the deadline for.
So it's okay for the customers to game the system and screw us all over but it isn't okay for Mantic to adjust the plan so we get more freebies by breaking more goals and increasing the total and giving what customers are begging for?
I hope you don't run a company
Whatever, mate. Get all White Knight and ride on Mantic's lap if you want. (see? I can be a dick, too!)
They designed the system in such a way that the best thing to do for any customer was to game the system in that way. When Scarletsquig is recommending that the best thing for customers to do was to sit on two pledges from almost day 1, and we all predicted the big backslide (that's still going to happen in the next couple of days as people drop one or the other) then Mantic's not doing something right.
If you think it's totally cool to have acted the way they have, then more power to you and feel free to give them as much cash as you like. I'm not so keen, as I find it to be pretty dishonest and I dislike such transparent manipulation. I also dislike the Mine Carting and price bumps with each level, but then, all it does is make me less likely to jump on board for more sub-par figures that I'll never use. Especially when there's new GW stuff from the past few months to catch up on.
By the way, I'm actually quite cool on the whole thing, rather than upset - in case that doesn't come across in my tone. I'm much more "don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining" than "THIS IS THE OUTRAEG!" about the whole thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: I wondered what all that beeping was that woke me up, it was my Azazel pledge pull counter going off like a maniac.
Well, it was only one. The one in reply to Alph was just like a drill to show him what the alarm looks like, since he was apparently sleeping through the previous ones.
Earth Dragon wrote: Whatever man. Get all pissy if you want. People were sending Mantic e-mails complaining about the folks posting in the comments section about how they had two accounts and were sitting on both EBs, effectively locking them out from grabbing a frenzy, which they made the deadline for.
So it's okay for the customers to game the system and screw us all over but it isn't okay for Mantic to adjust the plan so we get more freebies by breaking more goals and increasing the total and giving what customers are begging for?
I hope you don't run a company
Whatever, mate. Get all White Knight and ride on Mantic's lap if you want. (see? I can be a dick, too!)
They designed the system in such a way that the best thing to do for any customer was to game the system in that way. When Scarletsquig is recommending that the best thing for customers to do was to sit on two pledges from almost day 1, and we all predicted the big backslide (that's still going to happen in the next couple of days as people drop one or the other) then Mantic's not doing something right.
If you think it's totally cool to have acted the way they have, then more power to you and feel free to give them as much cash as you like. I'm not so keen, as I find it to be pretty dishonest and I dislike such transparent manipulation. I also dislike the Mine Carting and price bumps with each level, but then, all it does is make me less likely to jump on board for more sub-par figures that I'll never use. Especially when there's new GW stuff from the past few months to catch up on.
By the way, I'm actually quite cool on the whole thing, rather than upset - in case that doesn't come across in my tone. I'm much more "don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining" than "THIS IS THE OUTRAEG!" about the whole thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: I wondered what all that beeping was that woke me up, it was my Azazel pledge pull counter going off like a maniac.
Well, it was only one. The one in reply to Alph was just like a drill to show him what the alarm looks like, since he was apparently sleeping through the previous ones.
You are putting "We didn't dump toxic chemicals into the river" when in fact they did with "you have until this time to get this deal" and the when people beg and the business isn't going as well they say "okay, but you'll have to pay slightly more".
Scarletsquig is not Mantic or a rep. And so they should be allowed to adjust the plan because fanboys are doing something and suggesting things that are boxing out potential customers.
I criticize Mantic plenty so don't act like I'm riding their lap, but you sit there with your nose in the air and do nothing but troll acting like making smart business decisions because the situation has change is a crime against you personally when it does nothing but benefit you and want you're pledge can give you.
Earth Dragon wrote: He asked why is there only one human team, and there are three teams/templates with humans on the roster.
Actually, I was thinking specifically of Xtreme, where humans only play one role on one team, despite this being a human sport played in human cities. They should have gotten rid of the zombies and given the humans at least one real team.
You are putting "We didn't dump toxic chemicals into the river" when in fact they did with "you until this time to get this deal" and the when people beg and the business isn't going as well they say "okay, but you'll have to pay slightly more"
I criticize Mantic plenty, but you sit there with your nose in the air and do nothing but troll acting like making smart business decisions because the situation has change is a crime against you personally.
Mate, you're getting way too bent out of shape about this. I think they're being dishonest and manipulative and somewhat insulting to our intelligence. You think it's ferpectly fine do act as they are. I assumed you were a bit more on the ball, though. Smart business decisions because the situation has changed? Really? You think the "situation has changed"? The "limiting" of Frenzy, than closing it by a certain date, then reopening the pledge level three days later at a higher price is as transparent as these things come. Maybe you should take a walk to cool off and just think about that for a minute when you get back. it's as fake as any stretch goal has been.
And like I said, they set themselves up for pledge camping (and like I said, it's still going to bite them in the arse). Kickstarter has become a meta game for companies like Mantic. If they want to play vs the customers in KS, they get played right back. And back and forth it goes.
Oh yeah. Sharing an opinion with legitimate points to back it up is a pretty far from trolling. Don't resort to trying to strawman my points and opinions as "trolling" just because you don't agree, and your snide remarks are getting a bit tiresome. Rule #1 and all that.
Earth Dragon wrote: He asked why is there only one human team, and there are three teams/templates with humans on the roster.
Actually, I was thinking specifically of Xtreme, where humans only play one role on one team, despite this being a human sport played in human cities. They should have gotten rid of the zombies and given the humans at least one real team.
I guess real humans of any talent tend to play in the big leagues, fluffwise? They could have another set of human players/another human team, but they'd need to pretty much be the same as the ones in the original game for balance porpoises - yet they'd need to represent the guys who work down at the (space) docks in their off-hours. I guess the inherent problem is game balance. Despite these being "outer rim" and "prison" teams, the game needs to remain balanced between the teams regardless of fluff. Else it'd play like the Miami Heat going up against the Birmingham Knights or Melbourne Tigers.
Did I miss all the "Fake Stretch Goals" talk too?!?
I haven't been flying that particular flag this time, though I made a snarky reference to it once while mentioning that I decided to give that argument a rest this campaign. Others have taken up that mantle, though - so not all is lost!
I think there's ample opportunity to convert your own human teams to use with non-human rules. I'll do more than one Eisenkern striker model one day, I promise! I'd much rather Mantic keep enriching the warpath universe with awesome new races tbh, and leave making humans out of the abundant third party (and even Mantic) options to us. Best of both worlds that way too... great Dreadball rules with great third party models ; p
I've also cancelled 4 posts now I think weighing in on the "discussion" atm. Maybe i'll gather my thoughts on it before the end of the KS ; p I blame Prince Valium.
Earth Dragon wrote: He asked why is there only one human team, and there are three teams/templates with humans on the roster.
Actually, I was thinking specifically of Xtreme, where humans only play one role on one team, despite this being a human sport played in human cities. They should have gotten rid of the zombies and given the humans at least one real team.
Fair enough.
The big thing is all the teams are built in the same manner of DBO teams where you won't see any mixing and matching. DBO is played with the teams isolated as far as "permanent players go". All those teams from the first three seasons will be mixing in with the new teams. So not only are you getting the humans from the box set, but you'll be able to go pick up a box of Trontek or Void and be able to mix them in as well.
In short, anything already out will be usable in Xtreme
Actually, I was thinking specifically of Xtreme, where humans only play one role on one team, despite this being a human sport played in human cities.
Humans aren't automatically second class citizens - it makes sense that the only humans playing Xtreme are criminals / convicts because im sure all the non-criminal humans have silver spoons and are living large somewhere above all the grunge.
Earth Dragon wrote: The big thing is all the teams are built in the same manner of DBO teams where you won't see any mixing and matching. DBO is played with the teams isolated as far as "permanent players go". All those teams from the first three seasons will be mixing in with the new teams. So not only are you getting the humans from the box set, but you'll be able to go pick up a box of Trontek or Void and be able to mix them in as well.
In short, anything already out will be usable in Xtreme
Even then, they could have run with the idea and added a set of humans wearing uniforms appropriate to the various other teams - a human guard who matches the Asterians, a human striker who plays with the Devastators, things like that.
Micky wrote: Humans aren't automatically second class citizens - it makes sense that the only humans playing Xtreme are criminals / convicts because im sure all the non-criminal humans have silver spoons and are living large somewhere above all the grunge.
"Criminal" and "convict" aren't the same things. Just because you're in trouble with the law doesn't mean you're going to get caught, so there's room for deserters or organised crime syndicates to get involved.
"Criminal" and "convict" aren't the same things. Just because you're in trouble with the law doesn't mean you're going to get caught, so there's room for deserters or organised crime syndicates to get involved.
Actually on that note, i think we have to hope the Rebs team will contain some humans. In duster coats, obviously.
Micky wrote: Humans aren't automatically second class citizens - it makes sense that the only humans playing Xtreme are criminals / convicts because im sure all the non-criminal humans have silver spoons and are living large somewhere above all the grunge.
"Criminal" and "convict" aren't the same things. Just because you're in trouble with the law doesn't mean you're going to get caught, so there's room for deserters or organised crime syndicates to get involved.
Not to mention the realistic likelihood of lower-skill-tier humans who prefer to compete in the "X-treeeeme" version of Dreadball because it pays better than their 8th-tier local league, etc.
"Criminal" and "convict" aren't the same things. Just because you're in trouble with the law doesn't mean you're going to get caught, so there's room for deserters or organised crime syndicates to get involved.
Actually on that note, i think we have to hope the Rebs team will contain some humans. In duster coats, obviously.
But this is what I'm talking about. The Season 1&2 Humans are dressed in Dreadball gear. Regardless if you play Arena or Fullscale football, the PPE is the same. The Humans that are gonna show up with a full fledge reb outfit in the underground are likely to be using the same sports gear, and for criminal sponsors it would be easy enough to get.
The way DBX is set-up, all you have to do is buy the current models and you're good to go.
This goes for the Teratons, Judwan, Marauders, or anyone else who might show up on an underground team that is already represented.
I'm still sitting on a rampage early bird, but I'm up in the air about keeping it. On one hand, I love a bunch of the models and want them. But I've also only gotten a couple games of regular dreadball in, and I don't know if I want to add anything beyond Deadzone fodder. It may be more valuable to pick up a couple teams I want and just go with them, for now.
No new stretch goal, so that was a bit of a damp squib.
The concepts for the other two Season Six teams have been posted and neither should be in the game. Even for a sport which is advertised as having no rules, aliens who can phase through solid matter and aliens that "seem to bend the very laws that govern the universe" should not be invited, any more than you should be allowed to drive a truck onto the pitch and just start running people over.
Have to say none of the Season 6 teams really appeal to me so far only the Hobgoblin team has the gritty vibe the Xtreme should be about not sure the others fit any form of Dreadball and yeah the rules sound worrying. Well it makes my choice easier Rampage plus add on, 8 teams of 8 players (well 16 for 2 of them) may be the way to go brings me to about $260 see what happens over the weekend though.
The Koris seem nice and psychopathic/ fun to play, so I'm happy with them as my s6 pick I think.. I do like the concept of the ada-lorana, but since I'm getting crystallans anyway, two teams of clear blue plastic is probably one too many.
Frenzy is now worth over $900.. with the next two teams it'll be worth over $1000. It's a big spend, but you do get your money's worth.
Maybe. They may be smaller then you are thinking. There was nothing to indicate that the Koris were 2nd gen size or anything. They could be a bit smaller.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you guys are looking for EB1s, today is a good day to snag one. It appears the "grab EBs if everything" hold outs are making their decision based on those reveals.
Earth Dragon wrote: Maybe. They may be smaller then you are thinking. There was nothing to indicate that the Koris were 2nd gen size or anything. They could be a bit smaller.
They'll have to be very tiny to get four feet on the integral circle base, or use those horrendous platforms. I guess they could just put two of the feet on the base, but then it is going to be interesting to see how the other two fit on the hex.
Earth Dragon wrote: Maybe. They may be smaller then you are thinking. There was nothing to indicate that the Koris were 2nd gen size or anything. They could be a bit smaller.
They'll have to be very tiny to get four feet on the integral circle base, or use those horrendous platforms. I guess they could just put two of the feet on the base, but then it is going to be interesting to see how the other two fit on the hex.
Have you seen the Zzor Guard? Good looking model and it fits with each leg just outside the circle on each side(I know circles don't have sides. Effectively draw an x on the mini base and there is a leg at each point) I imagine some will be positioned like that. No clue what kind of variety you'll find. I have mixed feelings on Season 6 all in all.
Hobgoblin team is really the only one I'm excited about. The other 3 are kinda getting a bit whacky and over the top. I'll reserve final judgement until I learn more. If all these abilities are limited like the Teraton teleport, it will be easier to swallow.
The hobgoblins worry me because the face masks as drawn are not going to work well on preassembled figures. They'll make painting the faces really difficult and/or the mask will be cast onto/into the face itself. Had the mask been a separate piece you could glue on after painting the face that type of mask would be workable.
The Ada-Lorena actually look pretty good not sure about clear blue plastic though - they have to be the same colour as the Crystallans as they are on the same tool maybe clear would be better afterall. Still not sure why they would play Dreadball
todays update with new sponsor - the cheerleader is unlocked
We're moving into extra time!
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The DreadBall Xtreme Kickstarter is preparing itself for one last weekend of massive uncontrollable frenzy action - before heading off into the sunset forever. And it would not be a Mantic Kickstarter if we didn’t plan to make it the most extreme Xtreme ever!
As always the funds we raise go directly into making the games bigger and better than they otherwise would be. The support we receive from backers – be they seasoned veterans of all our campaigns, or new pledgers who have never before tried a miniatures game – makes a huge difference to the final range, and every bit really does help. Thank you for backing us so far - and anyother converts will be extremely welcome
So far in this Kickstarter backers you funded the Xtreme core game and 10 new teams (all of which are fully compatible with both DreadBall and DreadBall Xtreme). There are also 2 complete Expansions, a fantastic range of MVPs, several new giant models and a heap of exclusive extras.
To keep things really interesting right down to the wire, in addition to all our usual stretch goals we have a few special new ones – and a few major unlocks for the weekend too.
On Saturday we will unlock team 11 – the Tsudochans!
We’ll delve into their background in earnest tomorrow, but these aliens have cybernetically-amplified telekinetic abilities that allow them to throw the scenery around – and other players! For anyone at Rampage they will be available as your choice of bonus Season 6 team – and Frenzy, of course, gets a full maxed team of 16!
On Sunday we unlock the Ada-Lorena. In my opinion these guys are just brilliant – and to find out more you’ll have to pop on over to Mantic Blog tomorrow where they get a full write up! Exactly the same conditions as above apply – they are available to add on for everybody, they can be the free Season 6 team in Rampage and added and maxed in Frenzy.
But that is by no means all – oh no!
We are also coming perilously close to the DreadBall backer number – and if we exceed 2540 backers then EVERYONE from Rampage and above will get 'Bad Call' – an Alternative Robot referee MVP thrown into their pledge! This MVP is a ref gone crazy - who is no longer sitting on the sidelines but actually in the midst of the action. AND One lucky person who backs before we go through that milestone will get their version painted by our own in-house painter Dave!!!
And if (surely when, right?) we pass the DreadBall total of $728,986 we will produce a unique Kickstarter momento – an 8-page match day program from the infamous game between the Trontek 29ers and the Greemoon Smackers. The commemorative book will contain advanced rules for recreating this titanic historic game, have all facts about the teams and their star players, fascinating insights to the game’s best ever plays and some advertising for the galaxy's best ever products - this is Corporation controlled event, after all
This booklet will be an in-game keepsake and will fold out into a full size poster. It will only be ever available to backers from this campaign and will be a one print item - only on the first survey. It will be free in all pledges of Rampage and over. This commemorative programme will be made available separately as an add-on too but with a limit total of 3 per pledge. 1 copy per core game will also be included in the retailer pledge level to support our fantastic retail partners.
Not only that but we will include an decorative Event Ticket that can be used to come and see us at a backer only show at Adepticon, or a backer only hook up online or free entry to a Mantic Open Day (p.s. the next one is May 17th so come on down!). Perhaps you’ll get to recreate the game played between these two titanic, experienced teams against a member of the Mantic Team – and revel in the glory as you beat the snot out of them! (Or get trodden into the ground – either way!)
And we wouldn't leave you without an exciting stretch goal to aim for:
NEW! $550,000 Eclipse, Sponsor and All-star Teams!
We know Sponsors allow you to build your team from players of any race. Kraato Gon specializes in Robots, Dr Kain in mutants, Blaine in Free Agents but what about a Sponsor that can to do it with MVPs? No one is more specialized in building All-stars Teams from MVPs than Eclipse, our brand new Sponsor!
It takes a lot of influence to be able to keep all of these egos in check, and no-one is quite as good at it as Eclipse.
If we hit this goal, we’ll produce Eclipse – a brand new Sponsor for DreadBall Xtreme. We’ll include her sponsor rules in the Xpanasion too, allowing you to play with balanced teams of All-Star MVPs, and digitally too.
Eclipse will be available to add-on to your pledge for $5, and will be included free in pledges of Frenzy and up.
And finally…
Two free teams are being unlocked over the last two days and we’ve got some great exclusives coming up when we break through the major milestones ahead of us.
There will be plenty of new and exciting stretch goals over the weekend too as we get closer to the midnight (GMT) finish on Sunday.
Thank you for the support, and please keep spreading the word and please come along for the ride!
$265,565 is locked up in Frenzy pledges. This is a full 50% of their total. These pledges were made based on the promise of twelve teams.
So why are they waiting for the very last day before they show people what the last of those teams actually looks like? How can anyone believe that the best way to monetise a design is to offer it for only a few hours on a Sunday?
I think the most telling thing today is that Arcadia Quest with about the same amount of time left has passed DBX and has $42k today compared to DBXs $2.5k with 2 days left to go it's just not moving and I think there's still money to come out of this I know I still have a decision to make and that will mean adrop of $150 to $250.
if they unlock it all now things will stabilise briefly
(whooo hooo new stuff)
but as soon as they see that's it, that there it no more to come pledgers will start moaning then start leaving as mantic can't throw more stuff at them
at least this way most will hang on to see what's still to come (and most won't get round to backing out)
DaveC wrote: The Ada-Lorena actually look pretty good not sure about clear blue plastic though - they have to be the same colour as the Crystallans as they are on the same tool maybe clear would be better afterall. Still not sure why they would play Dreadball
Both coming in blue, coupled with my perception of a lot of theses teams as 'meh' is probably gonna get someone a chance at a EB1 Frenzy Sunday evening. I can get a normal Rampage and add the things I'm interested in and spend less.
I'm also a bit annoyed with line art instead of digital sculpts (though I partially understand why). Using the goblins as examples, (and I know I've mentioned it before), there is no way they can pull off those face masks and make them look decent in 1 piece minis. When I asked Mantic about it I got the 'well the drawings are just a guide for the sculptor', which means we really don't know what any of these damned things are actually going to look like.
The truth is in the numbers. The day's tally will tell whether Mantic played their cards right today, or completely blew it and received the worst last Friday funding they've ever had. Mars Attacks, previously Mantic's lowest funded KS campaign, rallied and took in $29,292 on its last Friday. The day is far from over, so take this with a generous grain of salt, but so far the take after DBX's Friday update is a whopping $3,913. $29,292 looks well out of reach at the moment (4:11 pm EST).
I think unlocking the final two teams was necessary, but it's not really spectacular at this point. I doubt there are very many pledgers holding a Frenzy right now that wouldn't drop out at the end if the last two teams weren't funded, and I doubt many fence-sitters would be tempted to pledge Frenzy without all twelve teams being guaranteed. So while I think they had to get the last two teams in and not let uncertainty about it weigh on backers and potential backers, all it really does is fulfill Frenzy's most basic initial promise: 12 teams. It's not new, it's not a bonus, it's clean-up for dragging stretch goals out way too long at the beginning and suffering the consequences for the rest of the campaign. And I suspect that there actually are a number of people holding Frenzy pledges right now who aren't satisfied, and will drop them if it isn't boosted by the end. Mantic need to think about keeping them from jumping ship as much as they need to think about attracting new backers. Otherwise the in and outflow could effectively cancel each other out and cause stagnation, or worse, result in a first-ever meltdown.
I think Mantic should have done one of their famous, generous turns, unlocked the two last teams immediately (it's also more psychologically reassuring to potential backers to say "you're already getting 12" than "you will get 12 by the end, guaranteed, but as of today you're only getting 10", thrown some flashy extra loot into both Frenzy and Rampage, and then listed the new stretch goals.
Mantic's update today was conservative where it needed to be bold. I think they needed to take a risk, put more on the table immediately, and let their confidence in the campaign show and inspire backers new and old. What today signifies to me instead is that Mantic want the last two teams to "count" as Saturday and Sunday's "big events," which in turn signals to me that they don't have the resources to add much that is genuinely new to Frenzy and Rampage beyond that. In other words, it signifies weakness and hedging bets, a terrible thing to communicate on the opening Friday of your campaign's big rush.
Yeah they need to do one stretch goal to unlock Prones for 10 teams no messing about with multiple stretch goals just get them in and done. Prones seem more useful for DBX. Alt. poses should be the next consideration 16 man teams of only 3 different sculpts aren't so appealing. 7 teams will need 3 alt sculpts each and the Rebs need 2 (they already have 4). Then there's the fourth giant and the remaining MVPs.
I can't see this topping the first now and I don't think the money is there to do the remaining unlocks properly. People are expecting this to go crazy at the 48 hour mark - I don't think it will and I have seen other KS have similar issues - the Frenzy cut off moved "the rush" forward a week I'm not sure how many are waiting for the email and then there's the whole matter of pledge adjustments which might kill any forward momentum.
This might top out at $600k - $650k at a stretch which is not too shabby at all and most would consider that a very successful KS. The original KS had 2539 backers this will probably end up similar it does raise a question about the whole 4 times more sets were sold retail okay a lot of people still aren't aware of KS but you'd have expected some uplift.
scarletsquig wrote: Rampage is already bigger than Striker was in the original KS, even if nothing more gets added, I'm happy.
Would very much like alt sculpts and prones at this point more than anything else.
Squig, you're right, thank you. I'm adjusting my pledge back down to Rampage, because from that pledging perspective, things look pretty good. I think I was getting overly frustrated with Frenzy and let it get to me.
I'll still be watching to see where Frenzy ends up, though, as I'm actually starting to like the Tsudochans (who initially got only a "???" reaction from me). What it comes down to for me is how easy it will be to sell the bits I don't like or need to bring my original investment back to a reasonable level. I know I wouldn't want doubles of every team, so that's a good start, nor do I need Weiss, Ardia, the dice, or the acrylic markers.
You're right about alt sculpts being the main stretch goal to push for now, too. I'll add my voice to yours on the KS comments to pester them for that.
Squig - I think we just simultaneously posted, so I doubt you were responding to my concern about reselling.
But if I may ask, what do you think? I don't think anyone could get $1,000 for the Frenzy pledge on the aftermarket, but I know you're talking full price RRP there.
(Again, I'm talking about selling the parts I wouldn't want - see above -, not the game itself and certainly not the whole pledge's worth.)
It's worth less because nobody pays RRP.
It's worth less because nobody likes every team and every MVP.
It's worth less because of the very real danger that Mantic will botch the execution of some of the sculpts.
It's worth less because you're paying eight months in advance.
It's worth less because nobody pays RRP.
It's worth less because nobody likes every team and every MVP.
It's worth less because of the very real danger that Mantic will botch the execution of some of the sculpts.
It's worth less because you're paying eight months in advance.
I like your blunt honesty. Basically what it's worth to me is what I could recoup by selling bits of it, either on forums like this one or ebay. My expectations as to value and demand are modest, as is my ultimate goal. Basically I'm wondering if getting Frenzy and selling some would be a better way to go and cost about the same (depending obviously on how much you sell) as getting Rampage and adding on several items. I'm probably framing this in too nebulous terms, but I'm wondering as a general approach what luck people may have had with that approach on other Mantic campaigns? Go for the high bid, sell what you don't like, end up getting more than the "sweet spot" + add-ons for about the same price? Far-fetched? Commonplace?
Well, I successfully managed to trade away all of my non-Basilean KoW freebies for more Basileans... only took 3 trades to do it, too.
End result is over 5000 points of them and over 300 minis for my $225 spend, lots of everything in the army list that has a model. Still have more to add including ballista, GW phoenix, some other third-party stuff.
I hope to have it painted before the stuff from the KoW 2.0 KS arrives.
Mars attacks was the wildcard with its credit system... if you had any interest in deadzone terrain, that was the place to get it while getting a ton of MA stuff for almost nothing as a side order (68 minis + terrain/mat/rules etc. for $15).
scarletsquig wrote: Mars attacks was the wildcard with its credit system... if you had any interest in deadzone terrain, that was the place to get it while getting a ton of MA stuff for almost nothing as a side order (68 minis + terrain/mat/rules etc. for $15).
I don't speak KOW, so I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but it sounds good.
I'm using common sense (and taking into consideration all the ebay dumping that will occur after this KS ships), and for the amount of things I'd want to sell and the amount of return I'd need to beat my current Rampage pledge, I think I could beat retail, discount retail, kickstarter, AND other ebay sellers with my prices. So I'm considering it. (It helps that I snagged an EB1 Frenzy with a quick trigger finger.)
If they don't upgrade the rest of the sculpts for the rest of the teams, I'll go back to Rampage, though. Too many duplicates for my taste. At Rampage the impact is minimized with the Plague and Mechanites, and you get 4 different sculpts if you go Rebs already, so that only leaves the 6th season as a 3-sculpt team. Not bad.
As for Mars Attacks, you're right, and I'm glad I had a similar pledge. If you're speaking of Invaders Arrive, though, no mat was included, just the paper one.
It's worth less because nobody pays RRP.
It's worth less because nobody likes every team and every MVP.
It's worth less because of the very real danger that Mantic will botch the execution of some of the sculpts.
It's worth less because you're paying eight months in advance.
I like your blunt honesty. Basically what it's worth to me is what I could recoup by selling bits of it, either on forums like this one or ebay. My expectations as to value and demand are modest, as is my ultimate goal. Basically I'm wondering if getting Frenzy and selling some would be a better way to go and cost about the same (depending obviously on how much you sell) as getting Rampage and adding on several items. I'm probably framing this in too nebulous terms, but I'm wondering as a general approach what luck people may have had with that approach on other Mantic campaigns? Go for the high bid, sell what you don't like, end up getting more than the "sweet spot" + add-ons for about the same price? Far-fetched? Commonplace?
Yeah, I agree with Alex also. I'm really not the kind of guy who can be arsed trying to ebay stuff and dealing with all the bs and hassle of doing so, so it's only "worth" as much as what you (or I) actually like is worth. Looking over my DB1 stuff, a lot of it is okay, some is crap, much was disappointing, but none of it really excites me enough to have done anything with it to date (though I only just got the last of it a couple of weeks ago - which also colours my opinion. I also think Alex is being generous with an 8-month timeline, and given the way that Mantic operate these days it'll be at least a year before people have all their stuff - through a likely combination of wave shipping and Mantic feth ups. And we know there will be multiple waves because they're pretty much just admitted as much in their text about the "greatest game EVAR" pamphlet:
This booklet will be an in-game keepsake and will fold out into a full size poster. It will only be ever available to backers from this campaign and will be a one print item - only on the first survey.
Anyway, I got a bill dropped in my lap for $400 yesterday, so jokes aside, I had to pull my pledge down to $1. So I'll see how it looks down the road when the pledge manager comes out...
Azazelx wrote: Yeah, I agree with Alex also. I'm really not the kind of guy who can be arsed trying to ebay stuff and dealing with all the bs and hassle of doing so, so it's only "worth" as much as what you (or I) actually like is worth.
Good pick up on the first survey mention in the pamphlet. I'd actually be happier if they did do a second survey - then I can wait to order things until after more of the finished models have been shown.
I can be arsed to ebay stuff - I've done it successfully a number of times - but only when it's parceled into a scant few large, strategic bundles to minimize the amount of bs and hassle I have to put up with. No putting up individual teams and MVPs and managing boatloads of small sales and mailings. If I become convinced that numerous small sales will be required to make the return worthwhile, then pledging Frenzy isn't worth my time, and I'll be lowering my pledge accordingly.
Looks like we might scrape out $10,000 today, which I'm pretty sure makes it Mantic's worst performance ever on a closing weekend Friday by a large margin. The problem with "I think it's a great deal as it is" is that it doesn't convince people on the outside looking in who haven't already bought in because they don't agree. As for the people already in, we have to hope that they - particularly the Frenzy pledgers - all share the "already satisfied" mindset if the total doesn't start rising faster. I understand Mantic have good competition right now, but they are clearly not competing with it very well. I do think that if they don't reverse course tomorrow with a strong update that we could see stagnation turn into implosion. If nothing else, they'll need to reassure everyone happy with where things stand now that they won't lose any stretch goals already achieved.
I don't know what all of this boils down to. Maybe Dreadball Xtreme is ultimately a niche game that just found its natural limit? I'll be interested to read any post-game analyses posted here after it's all done late Sunday.
I don't know what all of this boils down to. Maybe Dreadball Xtreme is ultimately a niche game that just found its natural limit? I'll be interested to read any post-game analyses posted here after it's all done late Sunday.
Maybe?
I think that these are the kinds of lessons that Mantic needs to learn too...
The other thing to be aware of is that there's guaranteed to be a large last-minute churn as people sitting on a Frenzy and a Rampage choose to stick with one or the other. That will equate to funding drops that probably won't go into the red for the day, but keep the overall daily totals of money pledged and "new backers" a lot lower.
I do agree though, they're only just getting around to fulfilling what they've kept saying frenzy would be in terms of teams all along - and I also agree that they should have filled it out with teams earlier and then started throwing the MVPs at it en masse afterwards.
I think most of the double guys were dropping a couple of days ago after they had hints of the last two teams and got information that they were for sure. I don't think there are too many left
I've yet to decide and will wait until tomorrow but my current thought is drop Frenzy go Rampage plus add ons while there's a lot in Frenzy I'm not seeing the actual value in it there might be $1000 worth if stuff but it's stuff I wouldn't normally have bought or with 38 hours is still incomplete teams need alt sculpts and proned or 16 man teams aren' t worth it. Like some of the others I can't be bothered with the hassle if trying to sell on the parts I don't want.
Vermonter wrote: I don't know what all of this boils down to. Maybe Dreadball Xtreme is ultimately a niche game that just found its natural limit?
Dreadball Xtreme as imagined by Mantic is a niche game, when it could have been part of a larger niche. This should have been a sports game to appeal to people who like the seedy underside of Sci-fi human settings. It should have had cyborgs and shivs and all that good stuff. For Sudden Death spectators should have started throwing weapons onto the pitch to try to make things more interesting. Instead it's got the alien rainbow and little else. It's actually a worse Necromunda killer than the original game, since your players are now interchangeable mooks.
Did anyone figure out whether it was better getting 2 'Core World' battlezones in the Deadzone Kickstarter Survey 2, or the Prison pitch in Dreadball Xtreme?
$50 versus $175? or are you trying to build the prison in another way?
That last update does nothing to help Frenzy but it will boost the pledge total - $30 worth of metal minis (with game rules) that are add on only looks like Frenzy doesn't get everything after all.
They really need to show more of the Tsudochan at this stage they don't even have much in the way of concept art to sell people on the teams.
It was inevitable really, there had to be something to tempt the Frenzy people into putting down more cash. I see these ones as the Dreadball Xtreme equivalent to the extra deadzone models added in the latest survey.
That's premium metal miniatures. I guess someone else has been casting the ones I received from Loka, DBS3 and a non-KS order I received recently....[/sarcasm]
Mantic wrote:So, when we get to 2250 backers, we will include a Kickstarter Exclusive Cheerleader with Score Board turn counter with every pledge of Rage ($100 and up) to say thank you!
DaveC wrote: $50 versus $175? or are you trying to build the prison in another way?
That last update does nothing to help Frenzy but it will boost the pledge total - $30 worth of metal minis (with game rules) that are add on only looks like Frenzy doesn't get everything after all.
That's.... not real sporting of them. I'm not outraged myself, but if I were a Frenzy backer, I'd be mightily pissed. Also, $10 for a Dredd model? That's quite a bit more than either Mongoose or Foundry charge for theirs, and theirs aren't sculpted by whoever from Mantic with an 8-12 month wait...
You wonder, though.. it's a gamble between trying to get completionist Frenzy pledgers to drop even more on the bundle, versus the risk of pissing off the ones who are on the fence into dropping out (or down). Is there much ado in the comments?
No ado in the comments yet, but America is still asleep.
The Mantic rep did say that the Dredd sculpt would be changed from metal to plastic if over half of the total backers opted for one in the survey though.
NTRabbit wrote: No ado in the comments yet, but America is still asleep.
The Mantic rep did say that the Dredd sculpt would be changed from metal to plastic if over half of the total backers opted for one in the survey though.
Over half of the total backers? That's like 1100 people.. all pledging an extra $10 a pop. For an overly-expensive Dredd figure to be delivered in 8-12. Rather hopeful thinking, methinks
I don't think many campaign's comments sections are worth too much in terms of gauging....much.
You'll most often get the few dissenters/grumblers who are then in turn swamped and drowned out by various levels of water carriers, from White Knight all the way up to Platinum Paladin.
Yeah I've largely given up on commenting on KS it's still fun to do on some smaller projects like Impacts! or Battlesystems where feedback and suggestions are welcomed but the big players are set in what they want to do and aren't really for changing. Forum discussion is by and large more balanced and we know they are reading them whether they comment or not (SPM changed a facebook update a few minutes after I posted it here and the picture quality was criticised).
NTRabbit wrote: No ado in the comments yet, but America is still asleep.
The Mantic rep did say that the Dredd sculpt would be changed from metal to plastic if over half of the total backers opted for one in the survey though.
Over half of the total backers? That's like 1100 people.. all pledging an extra $10 a pop. For an overly-expensive Dredd figure to be delivered in 8-12. Rather hopeful thinking, methinks
The rep wasn't pushing for it, he was just answering someone who asked what it would take to get Dredd in plastic; honest but unrealistic was the tone I got from it.
As for negatives being drowned out, a quick look didn't really show any outright negative posts to drown - the worst of them were a few people saying "those are nice, but I'm really not interested so won't be adding them to my pledge".
The rep wasn't pushing for it, he was just answering someone who asked what it would take to get Dredd in plastic; honest but unrealistic was the tone I got from it.
Ah, fair enough then. I read your comment as one of those "If half of our backers buy it, then we'll release it in plastic!!"
timetowaste85 wrote: Hmm, I'm honestly surprised: with the amount of Judge Dredd fans we have on here, I thought that model would gain a lot of support, not backlash.
Oh, I like Dredd a lot, but he's already well served by several companies making nice models, and available at retail, right now, and for less money from Mongoose/Warlord and Foundry, with the singular exception of the Knight Models version.
DaveC wrote: $50 versus $175? or are you trying to build the prison in another way?
That last update does nothing to help Frenzy but it will boost the pledge total - $30 worth of metal minis (with game rules) that are add on only looks like Frenzy doesn't get everything after all.
That's.... not real sporting of them. I'm not outraged myself, but if I were a Frenzy backer, I'd be mightily pissed. Also, $10 for a Dredd model? That's quite a bit more than either Mongoose or Foundry charge for theirs, and theirs aren't sculpted by whoever from Mantic with an 8-12 month wait...
You wonder, though.. it's a gamble between trying to get completionist Frenzy pledgers to drop even more on the bundle, versus the risk of pissing off the ones who are on the fence into dropping out (or down). Is there much ado in the comments?
Do we know it is not a Mongoose/Warlord figure? I could see the 'fans' and the Dredd being from the Warlord/Mongoose line.
Either way, I have a couple Foundry Judge Dredds, some other judges and the angel gang all painted up. No way I need another Dredd. Does everyone get the rules or is it only folks who shell out the $10?
Do we know it is not a Mongoose/Warlord figure? I could see the 'fans' and the Dredd being from the Warlord/Mongoose line.
cheetor about 3 hours ago
Is the Dredd miniature a new sculpt or something from an existing range from another manufacturer?
Jason Brown about 3 hours ago
@ Mantic The Dredd figures, is it a new model or just one from the Judge Dredd range (I believe they have three versions at the moment?)
Creator Mantic Games about 3 hours ago
@ Cheetor + Jason - It a brand new sculpt - our very own Mantic DreadBall Judge Dredd
That's premium metal miniatures. I guess someone else has been casting the ones I received from Loka, DBS3 and a non-KS order I received recently....[/sarcasm]
I've gone for the Dredd mini as, having seen the Mongoose models for them, it's just got to be better than them. Anything made in the last 20 years has to be better than them.
Although, I didn't know about the Dark World creations model.
Do we know it is not a Mongoose/Warlord figure? I could see the 'fans' and the Dredd being from the Warlord/Mongoose line.
cheetor about 3 hours ago
Is the Dredd miniature a new sculpt or something from an existing range from another manufacturer?
Jason Brown about 3 hours ago
@ Mantic The Dredd figures, is it a new model or just one from the Judge Dredd range (I believe they have three versions at the moment?)
Creator Mantic Games about 3 hours ago
@ Cheetor + Jason - It a brand new sculpt - our very own Mantic DreadBall Judge Dredd
Heh. My replacement River Horse from Loka had the same warped casting issue as the original one. I didn't even ask for a whole model - just a pair of torso pieces that would fit together properly (ie, not warped). Ironically, restic would have been possible to fix up - or certainly had more chance than the metal one.
$15 premium dollars into the bin, basically.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I've gone for the Dredd mini as, having seen the Mongoose models for them, it's just got to be better than them. Anything made in the last 20 years has to be better than them.
Although, I didn't know about the Dark World creations model.
The Mongoose ones of Dredd actually aren't bad in hand. The Foundry ones are quite good. 4 quid a pop.
Compel wrote: I've gone for the Dredd mini as, having seen the Mongoose models for them, it's just got to be better than them. Anything made in the last 20 years has to be better than them.
Although, I didn't know about the Dark World creations model.
DaveC wrote: $50 versus $175? or are you trying to build the prison in another way?
That last update does nothing to help Frenzy but it will boost the pledge total - $30 worth of metal minis (with game rules) that are add on only looks like Frenzy doesn't get everything after all.
That's.... not real sporting of them. I'm not outraged myself, but if I were a Frenzy backer, I'd be mightily pissed. Also, $10 for a Dredd model? That's quite a bit more than either Mongoose or Foundry charge for theirs, and theirs aren't sculpted by whoever from Mantic with an 8-12 month wait...
You wonder, though.. it's a gamble between trying to get completionist Frenzy pledgers to drop even more on the bundle, versus the risk of pissing off the ones who are on the fence into dropping out (or down). Is there much ado in the comments?
Someone's brought it up now but they are being shouted down because you know Frenzy is already such a good deal, they added teams to it without stretch goals, the miniatures are "premium" metal and so on.
and now they're saying on Facebook about the JD add on
"Frenzy was always stated to be all of the stretch goals and a great selection of add-ons - if we could of got these into plastic, they would have gone in"
(left hand please talk to right hand when designing/promoting the KS stretch goals)
...As for metal, there is none planned....March 5th
full quote
Spoiler:
@Daniel - I think the new Asterian Cyphers for Deadzone will change your mind about "thin" models :-). @K Harrison - the objection was noted, but we're a little too late on that particular sculpt. However, the figure is better in the flesh, and of course, hot water can do wonders. The benefit of the static pose on the Grogan is that it requires fewer parts on the mould, therefore meaning we can fit more on, hence more alternate poses :-). As for metal, there is none planned. No bear wizard either - we think he might be better suited to Kings of War! @Matthias - 1 card deck will cover the whole game - that's both players. @Jake Rose - the decision is still open - you're right about clear being more flexible for paint schemes, but for people who don't want to paint them the blue will look cooler. What do other people think? @Michele - fantastic question, and quite a difficult one to answer. The design process really varies quite a lot depending on the race in question, and the team of artists that we give it to. For example, the Jetari training robots in the boxed game were designed in just a single stage. We decided that we wanted some training robots, and I told one of my trusted digital sculptor to make me some. That was the entire brief, no further detail, and he nailed it first time! The Crystallans on the other hand took a few more stages. The idea came from a brainstorming session with the whole team, and actually developed out of two or three ideas that were thrown together. From there a brief of the race was written up, and I took that, added a few more details about the look of the figures, and sent it to an artist. It took a few iterations to get them just right (such as the difference between player types, and the fact that we wanted them in clear plastic played a part here - we added more icy parts than they originally had). These have then been given to a sculptor as I mentioned previously. This sculptor in particular is very creative, and often influences a design further at the sculpting stage by adding little tweaks and embellishments, such as extra texturing or tech detailing. Once done, this flows back into our living "IP Bible" and will be carried forwards into everything else we do for the race. The material and casting process do play quite a big part, but only at the sculpting stage really - they determine the pose of the figure, its size, and the way that it is cut. We generally have to find the right compromise between an exceptionally dynamic 15 piece figure and a static 1-2 piece figure, but the sculptors are experienced and know how to make the best of this :-). That was a bit long, but also a bit brief. There's so much more I could say. Maybe a more specific question next time... :-P.
Mar 5 2014 on DreadBall Xtreme - The Brutal Sci-fi Sports Board Game.
or
We've not actually discussed the metal/resin thing. I would say definitely not metal.
Mar 9 2014 on DreadBall Xtreme - The Brutal Sci-fi Sports Board Game.
anyway it's happened before it's not going to change now.
At least they let us know it was going to be metal ahead of time this go round.
It didn't bother me that much last time. As a long time GW addict I'm used to working and playing with both, but not being told till you had it kinda sucked.
...As for metal, there is none planned....March 5th
full quote
Spoiler:
@Daniel - I think the new Asterian Cyphers for Deadzone will change your mind about "thin" models :-). @K Harrison - the objection was noted, but we're a little too late on that particular sculpt. However, the figure is better in the flesh, and of course, hot water can do wonders. The benefit of the static pose on the Grogan is that it requires fewer parts on the mould, therefore meaning we can fit more on, hence more alternate poses :-). As for metal, there is none planned. No bear wizard either - we think he might be better suited to Kings of War! @Matthias - 1 card deck will cover the whole game - that's both players. @Jake Rose - the decision is still open - you're right about clear being more flexible for paint schemes, but for people who don't want to paint them the blue will look cooler. What do other people think? @Michele - fantastic question, and quite a difficult one to answer. The design process really varies quite a lot depending on the race in question, and the team of artists that we give it to. For example, the Jetari training robots in the boxed game were designed in just a single stage. We decided that we wanted some training robots, and I told one of my trusted digital sculptor to make me some. That was the entire brief, no further detail, and he nailed it first time! The Crystallans on the other hand took a few more stages. The idea came from a brainstorming session with the whole team, and actually developed out of two or three ideas that were thrown together. From there a brief of the race was written up, and I took that, added a few more details about the look of the figures, and sent it to an artist. It took a few iterations to get them just right (such as the difference between player types, and the fact that we wanted them in clear plastic played a part here - we added more icy parts than they originally had). These have then been given to a sculptor as I mentioned previously. This sculptor in particular is very creative, and often influences a design further at the sculpting stage by adding little tweaks and embellishments, such as extra texturing or tech detailing. Once done, this flows back into our living "IP Bible" and will be carried forwards into everything else we do for the race. The material and casting process do play quite a big part, but only at the sculpting stage really - they determine the pose of the figure, its size, and the way that it is cut. We generally have to find the right compromise between an exceptionally dynamic 15 piece figure and a static 1-2 piece figure, but the sculptors are experienced and know how to make the best of this :-). That was a bit long, but also a bit brief. There's so much more I could say. Maybe a more specific question next time... :-P.
Mar 5 2014 on DreadBall Xtreme - The Brutal Sci-fi Sports Board Game.
or
We've not actually discussed the metal/resin thing. I would say definitely not metal.
Mar 9 2014 on DreadBall Xtreme - The Brutal Sci-fi Sports Board Game.
anyway it's happened before it's not going to change now.
This is par for the course for Mantic, unfortunately...
Just asked Mantic on the comments if alternate sculpts for all of the teams was likely. Their response was, "hope so."
The final fate of the alternate sculpts will determine whether I consider staying in at Frenzy, or drop to Rampage, or even just a $1 pledge.
If I were them, I'd just bite the bullet and say they're going to do them, funding or no funding. Unlike another random MVP, alternate sculpts would be a meaningful investment in their own product line. 3 sculpt teams are not going to sell as well at retail.
- Frenzy is described in the right hand column as all of the stretch goals plus add-ons. The premium figures were intended for plastic, but we'd rather give you the teams, so a few have been nominated to go into metal so you can get them if you wanted them. It was either that, or not do the teams.
Yeah, they would have been late-game stretch goal freebies done in plastic if the campaign total was higher, but as its currently clear that that isn't going to happen, they're making them in metal as add-ons.
scarletsquig wrote: Well, there's a new Penny Arcade KS exclusive.. $10 metal add-on.
This is just amateur hour.
Penny Arcade updates on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. People are going to go to the website on Monday, see the exclusive and feature, and then go to Kickstarter and discover the campaign has already finished. It would have made a lot more sense to put the exclusive and feature up on Friday (or earlier, hopefully with another mention on Friday), so that people coming to read the comic would find out about it in time to pledge.
scarletsquig wrote: Well, they've paid for the Penny Arcade license now so not much they can do about it.
Well they could .. ya know ... make MvPs actually useful in the game. Would help.
And is there some law that Penny Arcade can't update? It's not that hard to publish gak on a webpage. It's not like they need to wait for the printing presses to open or something.
The thing about MVPs is I look at them and think "honestly, I'm going to use this model some amount of times between none and maybe half a dozen, do I really need to buy it?"
Was Mantic heavily abused by 7th Ed Teclis as a child, I don't understand why it goes to the trouble of making all these special characters in it's various game systems then basically writes rules to stop you using them.
I dunno what it's like with Dreadball, but Deadzone mercs are pretty much dead meat for campaigns due to the - 3 rep thing.
Then again, I also recall getting a free metal mordheim elf (aenur the twilight or something? aaages ago..)on the cover of White Dwarf that was pretty much impossible/ inadvisable to actually use as intended in the game due to some crazy rules. He did at least make a great elf ranger proxy (one of the most useful hired swords due to the post-game bonus, if I remember correctly).
scarletsquig wrote: They've paid for the Penny Arcade license now so not much they can do about it. It didn't make much difference to the original campaign either.
Zweischneid wrote: And is there some law that Penny Arcade can't update? It's not that hard to publish gak on a webpage. It's not like they need to wait for the printing presses to open or something.
You misunderstand - the comic updates on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Therefore, more people will come to their website on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, because they want to read the new comic.
scarletsquig wrote: I dunno what it's like with Dreadball, but Deadzone mercs are pretty much dead meat for campaigns due to the - 3 rep thing.
DreadBall MvPs cannot be used in tournament or one-off games.
They are "meant" to be used through auctions in leagues.
In theory, if you have a good and lively DreadBall League of 20 players, you'll have ~ 8 to 10 (max) players will be low on points. Assuming some low-ranking players will match up, around 5 to 6 will be able to have enough MCs to bid. To make sure there is actual competition to drive up prices for MvPs to a (slightly more) balanced level, you need less than 5 MvPs.. probably around 3.
So you'll probably need one MvP for every 5 to 10 players in your League, more or less. Even than the system is clunky.
Also, MvPs that don't play for all teams obviously break the auction mechanic.
Also, MvPs that are Jacks are pointless, cause people will bid for Strikers or Guards.
So yeah, if you bid Frenzy to kit out your entire gaming club for DreadBall, you'll want some 3 or 4 MvPs.. maybe.
Also, I never managed to get a league of 20 people going for a reasonable time. But that might just be me.
You misunderstand - the comic updates on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Therefore, more people will come to their website on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, because they want to read the new comic.
Didn't they have a Kickstarter asking for 500 Dollars for a Tweet?
They can just do a blog post, facebook, tweet it.. etc...
Not ideal, but hey. I am sure Penny Arcade can do something to earn their money, no?
scarletsquig wrote: I dunno what it's like with Dreadball, but Deadzone mercs are pretty much dead meat for campaigns due to the - 3 rep thing.
DreadBall MvPs cannot be used in tournament or one-off games.
They are "meant" to be used through auctions in leagues.
In theory, if you have a good and lively DreadBall League of 20 players, you'll have ~ 8 to 10 (max) players will be low on points. Assuming some low-ranking players will match up, around 5 to 6 will be able to have enough MCs to bid. To make sure there is actual competition to drive up prices for MvPs to a (slightly more) balanced level, you need less than 5 MvPs.. probably around 3.
So you'll probably need one MvP for every 5 to 10 players in your League, more or less. Even than the system is clunky.
Also, MvPs that don't play for all teams obviously break the auction mechanic.
Also, MvPs that are Jacks are pointless, cause people will bid for Strikers or Guards.
So yeah, if you bid Frenzy to kit out your entire gaming club for DreadBall, you'll want some 3 or 4 MvPs.. maybe.
Also, I never managed to get a league of 20 people going for a reasonable time. But that might just be me.
Eep, can't see them getting that much use then unless DBX handles them differently (sounds like it might with the new sponsor rules).
If not, well, they can always count as an alternate sculpt for the regular teams. Quite handy if you just want one model from a particular team.
You misunderstand - the comic updates on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Therefore, more people will come to their website on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, because they want to read the new comic.
Didn't they have a Kickstarter asking for 500 Dollars for a Tweet?
They can just do a blog post, facebook, tweet it.. etc...
Not ideal, but hey. I am sure Penny Arcade can do something to earn their money, no?
Maybe they can, but they could do so much more to earn their money if they did it just one day earlier.
scarletsquig wrote: I dunno what it's like with Dreadball, but Deadzone mercs are pretty much dead meat for campaigns due to the - 3 rep thing.
That, and half of them are kinda pointless as they don't really do anything interesting that your strike team couldn't do already.
I'm not a DB player so I don't know how much MVPs actually add in terms of on-table tactics. Considering how many we get even with Rampage, I hope there's a point to them.
In the 'short' league I ran with just 8 players, round robin, having 3 MVP's (1 jack, 1 striker, 1 guard) didn't seem that bad. Though I think their costs could have been boosted by 5 or so before the league started.
Compel wrote: In the 'short' league I ran with just 8 players, round robin, having 3 MVP's (1 jack, 1 striker, 1 guard) didn't seem that bad. Though I think their costs could have been boosted by 5 or so before the league started.
Although we haven't played the game that much...
Well. That is the problem. They are far to cheap to "just take" at the costed price. With 8 players, you'll usually only have ~4 underdogs allowed to make bids, possibly only 3 who are underdog "enough" to make bids, and among those, one (or two) might not even care for an MvP, preferring to buy other things, ultimately leaving you with too many MvPs to get a "proper" bidding-war started.
Which I don't get. Why can't they be "costed" at a minimum price that would roughly give you an idea how good they are, and give you a point value you might "informally" also use to buy yourself MvPs for one-off exhibition matches.
The entire insistence by Jake that it "must" be an auction to balance MvPs by demand seems unnecessarily bone-headed.
And of course, they are widely different in potency. Some come with things no regular player could hope to achieve, like Buzzcut being a STR 2+ (!) Guard with Grizzled (killing 5 or 6 of your opponents team is always a great way to make them enjoy the league) or the Praetorean being a "tough" Striker with Can't Feel a Thing, while others are barely better than your regular player type or, like Anne Marie Helder, potentially worse.
I love the snark and humour in DreadBall, not least in the MvPs, but too often it remains "in the book" and doesn't really make it to the board for one reason or another.
scarletsquig wrote: Well, there's a new Penny Arcade KS exclusive.. $10 metal add-on.
This is just amateur hour.
Penny Arcade updates on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. People are going to go to the website on Monday, see the exclusive and feature, and then go to Kickstarter and discover the campaign has already finished. It would have made a lot more sense to put the exclusive and feature up on Friday (or earlier, hopefully with another mention on Friday), so that people coming to read the comic would find out about it in time to pledge.
I think Penny Arcade did it better than last time. At least they're sounding vaguely interested (up until the, 'well, I gave it away).
People did seem interested enough in the MVP's to take one if they had the opportunity. But yeah, I'm going to have to agree with you that they could have had a more suitable / balanced prices to start off with.
For what it's worth, we went for Number 88 (with the updated rules), Rico Van Dien and The Enforcer. They all seemed to be pretty close in utility, but yeah, their points cost could have reflected their strengths more.
If not, well, they can always count as an alternate sculpt for the regular teams. Quite handy if you just want one model from a particular team.
True. But generally, the sort of laissez-faire approach worries me.
A good example was the Azure Forest MvP. The Azure Forest MvP A'Tea was explicitly announced as being, I quote, ..
The pack contains the metal A’Teo miniature plus full rules for using him in games. As an interesting point, he will only be legal in official tournaments in 2014, but of course there’s nothing stopping you continuing to use him in your own leagues and exhibition matches.
But of course, he isn't legal in official tournaments, cause no MvP is. And you cannot use him in exhibition matches either, because MvPs aren't allowed their either.
Also Jake Thornton more or less dropped the ball on DreadBall Season 2.
Now he'll be making Seasons 4 to 6 in half the time, and balance them for not one, but two games of DreadBall? Not holding my breath.
Jake Thornton is no doubt a far better game designer than I ever could be, but he's doing far too much, far too fast, Or no longer caring enough. Mantic really needs to get more game designers in. Or people who actually care about the rules.
Ahem what? Alex's point stands. The vast majority of Penny Arcade readers will see that on Monday, when it's too late.
I must have missed that post, because original claimed that they do not post on weekends. They clearly do as demonstrated by a post dating 1h ago!
My point was that Penny Arcade (the comic) does not update on weekends, not that Penny Arcade (the website) does not. People who visit Penny Arcade (the website) to read Penny Arcade (the comic) are more likely to do so when there is a new comic to read.
scarletsquig wrote: Well, there's a new Penny Arcade KS exclusive.. $10 metal add-on.
This is just amateur hour.
Penny Arcade updates on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. People are going to go to the website on Monday, see the exclusive and feature, and then go to Kickstarter and discover the campaign has already finished. It would have made a lot more sense to put the exclusive and feature up on Friday (or earlier, hopefully with another mention on Friday), so that people coming to read the comic would find out about it in time to pledge.
I decided regardless of what Mantic does at this point, Frenzy isn't for me anymore. So I go to manage my pledge, and it's already set to Rampage - where I intended to go.
So I'm wondering - did I slip and do that somewhere along the way, or did my wife find my laptop screen set to manage your pledge, see the Frenzy amount, and "edit" my entry?
Either way, I'd made up my mind already, so no problem.
Anyhow, since I'm not getting every team, I don't much care about alternate sculpts anymore. If I get the Rebs, that would leave me with just one Season 6 3-sculpt team. I mean, it's still a problem, but it's now Mantic's problem, not mine.
What does bother me is the low proportion of finished sculpts to concept art in this campaign. It's much lower than Deadzone's, and Mars Attacks used computer renders so that you had a decent idea how the figures would turn out.
I guess one thing that gets me about Frenzy right now is it was clearly priced to include a plastic Dredd and all the other now metal figures, as well as alt poses and prones.
Without those, though it may be a good deal, it is not the deal Mantic intended it to be.
Zweischneid wrote: ...And you cannot use him [an MVP] in exhibition matches either, because MvPs aren't allowed their either. ..
Zweischneid, are you saying MVPs aren't allowed in exhibition matches in DBX or standard DB?
If it's standard DB, page 50 says (about Exhibition Matches) "One option is to take a normal 100mc starting team and then spend the extra on MVPs and experience."
Right - the fun little extras that don't cost very much to produce (1-3 models per pack rather than 8-10 for a team) that can be thrown in to enhance a high-level pledge.
Without them the proposition becomes a bit more spartan - you can evaluate Frenzy purely in terms of the teams, and conclude that 16 of every team is a little excessive.
Bioptic wrote: Right - the fun little extras that don't cost very much to produce (1-3 models per pack rather than 8-10 for a team) that can be thrown in to enhance a high-level pledge.
Without them the proposition becomes a bit more spartan - you can evaluate Frenzy purely in terms of the teams, and conclude that 16 of every team is a little excessive.
Seems others might feel that way, too... not much of a pickup here at all, and it's under 24 hours remaining.
I wonder if this one will spike at the end or remain flat? They've "forced" the spike early with the "ending" of frenzy, and I think we're now in the timeframe where most double-pledgers will drop one or the other. I can't speak for others, but the pile of paid add-ons in "premium metal" wouldn't endear me if I were sitting on a Frenzy or on the fence about adding one. (And frankly they're putting me off pledge managing back in at $150, because constantly shifting goalposts puts me off.)
And still no alt poses/prones for the majority of the teams!
The Furon Arena is a good idea for a new gametype, since beasts offer more interesting counter-play than "stand there and die of heat exhaustion". Get rid of the pig-squigs in favour of tigers or something else that actually looks decent and it would be even better.
I hate Eclipse and Grak almost by definition.
The new Ada-Lorena flavour text is bad. The Ada-Lorena homeworld is literally fueled by the corpses of stupid people.
AlexHolker wrote: Will you be conducting a post-mortem again, Buzzsaw?
I think I will, though it may get folded into an omnibus analysis I have been working up. Mantic especially seems to follow a paradigm that we first really saw in TGG.
On the topic of pledges, I think I'll be dropping my EB2 Rampage to a lower level, maybe just enough to have access to the PM. I actually like a lot of what's in the campaign, but it's so uneven. The Kalyshi look great to me, and the mutants are interesting, but the convicts do nothing for me. That pattern repeats elsewhere.
It's plain fact that this is the worst closing weekend in Mantic's KS history, although the facts as to why are more opaque and will be the source of rumination at Mantic and interesting discussion here.
BUT Mantic did pull out of limbo today and push through a few stretch goals with a rising, albeit modest, total and backer number. I'm glad that there was no "meltdown" as I worried before, and I don't anticipate one at this point. Mantic's comments on the KS thread indicate that they do intend to address the alternate sculpts tomorrow, and I think Mantic realize that they have to deliver on what their front page graphics promise now - 16 MVPs in Rampage, 4 Giants, etc, and that they'll pace stretch goals accordingly to see that these things happen, although I don't currently see either Rampage or Frenzy getting anything significant beyond that.
I'm expecting an anemic win tomorrow in terms of Mantic's usual standards, but a win.
Maybe people are also just burned out with this type of KS, which in my mind was pioneered in a big way by Reaper but turned into a business model by Mantic. After getting caught up in stuff like Zombicide and Sedition Wars, nowadays I'm much more conservative, I wanna see the value up front and not have to keep re-calculating what pledge level gets what stretch and how much of that will I keep vs sell-off.
I'm more likely to back projects like Arcadia or Mercs Recon, since they offer a few, clearly defined pledge levels with no fuss. Don't get me wrong I think both models DO provide value vs retail for the backers, its just that Mantic's is very exhausting for someone like me to keep up with =p
Personally I had to pull away from DBX, it was a combination of on a personal level not liking where the game ended up (was expecting more gang stuff) and the reasons mentioned above.
I have no idea why Mantic decided it was a good idea to collect from a survey, then two weeks later collect from a KS, then two weeks later collect from another survey.
If Mantic has shown us one thing from Deadzone, it's that they use the funds from the survey to throw on extra stuff. What that might entail here, who knows. Hopefully that money would go to alt pose design (about a thousand bucks front end to design a model).
I don't think Mantic planned for a competitor to have their notices sent a bit before theirs stealing some momentum, and two other systems kicking off their last few days. That has probably slowed things the last week more then any mistakes Mantic made.
I agree with others when that Mantic's timing on some of the add-ons was a bit off. Instead of Wednesday add-ons and then nothing Thursday and Friday and then add-ons Saturday, they could have helped momentum by releasing Tycho Thursday and Dredd Friday. Stalling causes further stalling. People eyeballing other projects are prone to bail when it's waffling. When you do things to help the total go up, people are more content, and since a few extra bodies stay around, it more promotes a couple extra watchers to sign up when they notice the project hitting stretches. Don't know how much it would have helped, but it would have better then what we have here.
I'm not certain why some got upset that the add-ons WITHOUT stretch goals weren't included on Frenzy. Those add-ons were only gonna help the total go up. Though, most of the people complaining in the KS comments said at other times that they were at levels other then Frenzy..........people gotta gripe about something. It's a vast improvement from Mantic posting a 25k stretch goal and then having it paid for add-on that people thought would be plastic but it turned out to be Metal (Helfather). I'm glad Mantic is a little more straight forward at least. Again, it's a little silly to think something that didn't have funds raised for it would automatically be included in your pledge. Better to have the opportunity to buy it then not have it there at all.
Frenzy was not a good idea, at least not how it was done. I feel Mantic would have done better to have as many legit stretches as possible (I'm pretty sure the stretch for four alt sculpts was far more then 4k.......). Frenzy should have been ensnared AFTER Season 5 was finished with none of this EB non-sense.
Honestly, the Penny Arcade model should have been done MUCH earlier, but none of us know the back story. Those guys could have just said something recently, or not given the final go ahead until today or something.
I think Mantic could have better in this time frame, but I feel this time frame could have been avoided all together.
I made reference to Dreadball and Deadzone, but only in that I felt they represented campaigns that followed an established paradigm. What is interesting is how Dreadball and Deadzone don't look the way Mars Attacks and, now, DBX look;
The most obvious pattern is a massive front-loading: I remarked that this was aberrant in TGG compared to the other campaigns I had looked at, but in TGG the curve was nowhere near as badly shifted as it is in Mantic's most recent campaigns.
Mantic, being more established, are gonna have a huge amount of activity that first day at this. It's hard to say what has damaged the end loss the most, but there are so many factors in play, I couldn't begin to tell you which has hurt them the most.
If you look in the comments section, there are some who are still acting like 200k is magically gonna show up, or Mantic is just gonna give everyone more free stuff. As evidence by Metal add-ons, I'm sure Mantic is tapped on their "excess" and more auto freebies are out.
I'd be surprised if thing even hits 600k at this point when I think it could have busted 1 mil easy if you changed a couple of the things I mentioned above.
Need to sit down later and check the gap between Frenzy and Rampage + stuff I really want....but it's feeling like about $100 so I think that Frenzy will be dropping.
AlexHolker wrote: The Furon Arena is a good idea for a new gametype, since beasts offer more interesting counter-play than "stand there and die of heat exhaustion"
Yeah, just this Friday as I was playing Deadzone one Mawbeast ate 3 Enforcers and it immediately made me wish for beasts in DBX.
Well, there's a $575k goal now and we need another $20k to hit it.
I figure it'll just about get to $600k or close to it, but there can't be a whole lot left in store for this one.
No alt sculpts for all those season 5 and 6 Frenzy teams unfortunately, probably 4 different sculpts in total per team though since when it comes to tooling, that's the only number that goes neatly into 8 and 16. Not sure if they'll ship with prones yet.
Yeah, I think that is some of the problem. However, you have to weigh up if you don't 'back big' now, you can end up with less models - or model variation, than later.
JoeRugby wrote: I missed the Deadzone kick starter so I'm going in for some zombies and 1 or 2 of the MVPs I want to get into/convert for deadzone.
I would assume that the DZ zombies will be being sold at retail a fair while before your pledge is shipped to you, and possibly at a cheaper price too. The MVP's usually work out cheaper as well.
@Buzzsaw, thanks for the graphs/stats it does seem like Dreadball, like Mars Attacks, has a very natural "ceiling" total of 600/700k. The front loading also takes out a lot of the perceived "fun" of backing your average Kickstarter.
Per the comments the alt Poses should be the next stretch goal I'm guessing $600k they really need to get them locked in and $600k might be cutting it fine.
I still think the main "design-flaw" is the lack of appeal for "oldschool" DreadBall fans.
Xtreme is nice and all, but if you don't want "two DreadBall games", you're stuck with pick-and-choose teams and Season 4+ books from the optional add-ons at, essentially, the same price you can get them from places like Wayland Games this winter (after seeing the miniatures) anyhow (give or take a quid).
Not to mention that I would've greatly appreciated a revised or 2nd Edition of the DreadBall rules anyhow. They are good rules for a first Edition, but there are lots of holes and flaws in there, and adding 12 new teams in a 6 months fast-track isn't gonna improve the overall game-experience.
I hope they aren't killing the golden-egg-laying goose that is DreadBall. It's a game with great potential, but I worry they are killing it for the quick buck of lotsa-teams and a "second priority approach" behind the new hotness of Xtreme.
JoeRugby wrote: I missed the Deadzone kick starter so I'm going in for some zombies and 1 or 2 of the MVPs I want to get into/convert for deadzone.
I would assume that the DZ zombies will be being sold at retail a fair while before your pledge is shipped to you, and possibly at a cheaper price too. The MVP's usually work out cheaper as well.
I've gone in for a small pledge to get me in on the pledge manager. Can play a bit more of the waiting game.
Joyboozer wrote: Why is it always space ogres and never space trolls?
Why should it be either? Why not make something that isn't a top-heavy, ugly bastard?
"Ogres" are more of a broad category, though. Call them by many other names, but they're the human-like 8-10' tall hulking brute. Oversized, stocky, strong humanoid. We see that and think "ogre" because we've got the GW-centric mindset for these races.
The general public's perception of "Ogre" is slightly different..
But there's nothing wrong with larger-(or-smaller)-than-human humanoid races. Most non-human alien, "pan-human" and "monster" races are basically human sized for no especially good reason, excepting that's what we're used to in games and media, from Star Trek to Star Wars to Lord of the Rings.
There were a lot of factors leading to this, some of them beyond Mantic's control, others a direct result of flawed strategy on their part. I wish they had taken the boom of the first day to front load some extra teams from the get-go, so people would see that right from the beginning they're already getting a bunch of teams for their Rampage pledge, and Frenzy is already a deal just 2 days in, so the sky's the limit and let's jump on this thing now!
Instead, they've had to drastically reshuffle and "give away" teams without stretch goals due in large part to that poor pacing, which in turn makes it look like the KS is on life support, which of course it now is. Yes, the too long stretch goals on the first day probably gave them some financiaI lee-way to "give away" teams later, but in terms of momentum and all-important backer perceptions of success, they would have been much better off having lower stretch goals in the beginning and hitting those teams then. I don't know if this KS could have broken a million, as Earth Dragon* states, but it definitely could have done much better than barely pushing 600 k. His point about running this campaign during two pledge managers for their other campaigns is a life lesson Mantic needs to learn. If they ever do that again, they are willfully shooting themselves in the foot. Realistically, that may mean doing fewer Kickstarter campaigns a year. Good idea, I think.
Finally, I understand from their actions that Mantic is up against the wall financially, or else they wouldn't be playing "maybe" with the most basic premises of what you'll get in Rampage and Frenzy right until the end (4 giants, alt sculpts.) Mantic often add near-misses on to the pledge manager after the campaign closes, as Earth Dragon states, but this late game "it's all up for grabs" approach makes me trust in that a lot less. And it's a constant reminder that they could have prioritized the fundamentals much earlier and gotten them out of the way, so that now only a few frills like MVPs, or even that 8th sponsor would be at stake. I think throwing Grak in as a stretch goal this late in the game instead of getting started on the alt sculpts was either overly optimistic or just rash on their part.
I'm mostly in this for Warpath universe miniatures for use in Deadzone and perhaps other games down the line. Dreadball Xtreme has failed to excite me as a game, and my interest has diminished as the campaign has ground to a halt. At this point, the only way I'm staying in at Rampage is if we hit the alt sculpts and giant before this thing closes today. If not, since I'm not into the game itself and would rather see more sculpts before investing, I actually don't lose much by pledging $1 and ordering a la carte. (More sculpts shown up front is another issue that has plagued this campaign a lot more than it did for either Deadzone or Mars Attacks.)
I'm sorry to say that I haven't enjoyed this campaign; it's been frustrating and depressing watching it bleed out and drag endlessly on, and I feel sorry for the guys at Mantic - who are good, talented people who made some mistakes this time - more than anything else.
*My apologies for initially using a different forum name for this user. In my mind I associated him with a user of another forum based on similar opinions and writing styles, which may or may not be accurate, but it was never my intention to "out" anyone publicly, just a sloppy, and very possibly inaccurate, Freudian slip from using too many forums myself.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Another problem Mantic is fighting is all their experienced backers KNOW there are multiple pledge manager opportunities coming
(bad enough if they were a company known for transferring concepts to minis consistently well, catastrophic where there are real problems)
so no need to back big now, wait till you've seen at least some of the art stuff in the flesh
I do believe Earth Dragon touched on a pretty major aspect as well:
I have no idea why Mantic decided it was a good idea to collect from a survey, then two weeks later collect from a KS, then two weeks later collect from another survey.
Now, I haven't gotten my MA invoice yet, but I was expecting to have had it arrive by now, and it literally could arrive any time. I'm now expecting the promised previews for the DZ survey to end up like the KoW one where we didn't see the Elf/TK cavalry for no good reason before the final survey ended.
I got into Mantic with Deadzone and that one was brilliant, I thought. Mars Attacks was well thought out for the most part but had some trouble with front-loading because of the time-sensitive BotB pledge level and a lot of confusion because... well, there's no nice way to say this, but many backers apparently lacked the mental capacity to understand the credit system. DBX was just bad from the get go. Major front-loading, fake stretch goals, unnecessarily long stretch goals, the works.
But you know what? I'm still in, because I'm in it for the game and the models, not for how well the campaign was run. I think campaign quality is a dumb criteria to use when deciding what to buy.
A bigger problem than all of that is the lack of sculpted models on show.
Even Dreadball had 4 fully painted teams to show off, this time there's just two and a lot of concept art.
I really don't get it, I was looking at the DBX Brokkr sculpts (sculpted by Steve Saunders, same guy who did the DZ Rebs) in a cabinet nearly 4 months ago and they were lovely. Nowhere to be seen on the Kickstarter, though.
scarletsquig wrote: A bigger problem than all of that is the lack of sculpted models on show.
Even Dreadball had 4 fully painted teams to show off, this time there's just two and a lot of concept art.
I really don't get it, I was looking at the DBX Brokkr sculpts (sculpted by Steve Saunders, same guy who did the DZ Rebs) in a cabinet nearly 4 months ago and they were lovely. Nowhere to be seen on the Kickstarter, though.
Agreed, that's the real issue, and what makes me not even consider this without sculpts. Mantic is not known for staying true to the concept art.
Azazelx wrote: But there's nothing wrong with larger-(or-smaller)-than-human humanoid races. Most non-human alien, "pan-human" and "monster" races are basically human sized for no especially good reason, excepting that's what we're used to in games and media, from Star Trek to Star Wars to Lord of the Rings.
Oh, I agree completely. I'm fully in favour of having more "big guys", I just want at least a few to be more stylish. Compare Mantic's ogres with Uber's tank-men, or GW's giant to Magic's Palisade Giant. Or for that matter, compare how GW treats their dragons to this. Being big isn't the same as being stupid, and being big isn't the same as being ugly.
lord_blackfang wrote: A thought. Maybe those Brokkrs were sculpted with restic in mind and have to be redone now that Mantic is going with board game plastic...?
possible but the convict sculpts were there aswell and they look identical?
scarletsquig wrote: A bigger problem than all of that is the lack of sculpted models on show.
Even Dreadball had 4 fully painted teams to show off, this time there's just two and a lot of concept art.
I really don't get it, I was looking at the DBX Brokkr sculpts (sculpted by Steve Saunders, same guy who did the DZ Rebs) in a cabinet nearly 4 months ago and they were lovely. Nowhere to be seen on the Kickstarter, though.
I wonder if they've decided they won't work for single (ish) piece casting/factory assembly in 'loka' material, so there's going to have to be some (significant) redesign
that would explain why they've not been on show on the KS to avoid bait/switch accusations later
Yeah the lack of minis to look at has been one of many problems with this campaign, but like Lord_Blackfang I'm sticking with it for the game.
I hope they learn the lessons here and for Warpath cut out the front loading, and spend their year off (DKH isn't going to need any serious amount of new sculpts) getting at least 2/3 of what they want to do for Warpath to the point where a mini, even just greens, can be photographed and thrown up.
I predicted $600-650k, looks like I'm over for the first time.
NTRabbit wrote: Yeah the lack of minis to look at has been one of many problems with this campaign, but like Lord_Blackfang I'm sticking with it for the game.
I hope they learn the lessons here and for Warpath cut out the front loading, and spend their year off (DKH isn't going to need any serious amount of new sculpts) getting at least 2/3 of what they want to do for Warpath to the point where a mini, even just greens, can be photographed and thrown up.
I predicted $600-650k, looks like I'm over for the first time.
I think for the warpath ks they at least 4 plastic sprues rendered and ready for tooling. One for each of the major forces. That along with the enforcers and zombies should give them a good base to start from.
They definitely need renders and not just concept art to get people on board. The warpath ks could make or break mantic as a major threat to the bigger names.
I think ending slap bang in the middle of the month does not help either. I am aware that not everyone is paid at the start/end of the month but most are. I have pulled my minor pledge for the DZ terrain infills as I am sure I can make my own in good time. The lack of Deadzone crossover has hamstrung it a bit too.
I think that Squig has nailed it on the head most of all with the lack of final sculpts too, there are just too many "what ifs" to compete for most people's hobby dollar/pound. Then again there are still a hell of a lot of people waiting on DZ second survey images before deciding what to spend. I am a big fan of Mantic, but they are very good at making bad decisions.
scarletsquig wrote: A bigger problem than all of that is the lack of sculpted models on show.
Even Dreadball had 4 fully painted teams to show off, this time there's just two and a lot of concept art.
I really don't get it, I was looking at the DBX Brokkr sculpts (sculpted by Steve Saunders, same guy who did the DZ Rebs) in a cabinet nearly 4 months ago and they were lovely. Nowhere to be seen on the Kickstarter, though.
I suspect (as do others) it is because we won't get those Brokkr sculpts for whatever reason. The concept art for all the teams has been lackluster in my opinion as well. They may have done so so that folks don't expect too much from the actual sculpts, I don't know. I do know when Mantic has not even shown digital models let alone actual models, what they end up sending tends to be disappointing.
Perhaps they should have held off on this until they had more to show?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Another problem Mantic is fighting is all their experienced backers KNOW there are multiple pledge manager opportunities coming
(bad enough if they were a company known for transferring concepts to minis consistently well, catastrophic where there are real problems)
so no need to back big now, wait till you've seen at least some of the art stuff in the flesh
Exactly!
In this post-KoW/Dreadball/Deadzone world, the 'trust' just isn't there as strongly as it might have been with Mantic.
Hopefully they'll take this to heart and seriously work to correct many of their repeated missteps.
It's really interesting that CMON seem to have tried to tackle this problem during the Arcadia Quest KS
no $1 'I just want to help' pledge level so you have to go in at the full amount or KS doesn't even pass your details on to them
a paypal option for late pledges opened right at the end with a very limited number of slots
(was to be 200, but seems to have been cut back to 100 as pledges during the KS were higher than expected and they clearly have a 'ideal' number of backers they're trying to pick up based on the amount of production time they have booked at the factory)
The thing is, Arcadia Quest has 4884 backers, backing slightly over 150 USD average.
Production run of 5000?
Either way, it's easy to do a final surge from that level. Offer a 5 USD add-on, if 2400 out of 4800 backers add it, you'll have made 12.000 USD right there.
DreadBall Xtreme only has 2400 backers, already backing over 250 USD average.
Frenzy-style pledges are nice, but you are catering to a small customer base mostly immune to the sticker shock of a 300 USD pledge.
CMON is going more the many-backers for less money route (which presumably Mantic is planning to try with their "mini-kickstarters", especially if their "board-game-plastic-miniatures" are well-received).
In a way, it's a pity, as I think DreadBall would've been thematically far better suited for a "max-pledge-around-100-dollars-wide-appeal" Kickstarter than a Warpath or DZ 2.0 one, which would be more suited to the "small-cutomer-base-with-deep-pockets" approach they are trying to do with the Frenzy-pledge.
DaveC wrote: Interesting missed this earlier the Ada-Lorena team is only 6 minis or 12 maxed for rules balance reasons apparrently (or money saving maybe?)
Their reduced numbers are probably the result of needing them to fit on the same sprue as the Crystallans.
Yeah I saw that too. Wasn't sure how to read it. Are they going to be LARGE energy people? Even if they are more elite, if they're the same size it certainly rankles to pay the same price for 25% less plastic mans. It could be argued that the translucent material is the reason, but then why aren't the crystallans the same. I think retail bones minis in the translucent material cost more, but the disparity between the two teams throws it off.
They do look cool though, and they're still only a bit over $2 a model so I may still get some come the survey.
Has anyone asked in the comments if the OMACs are going to be larger figures?
I think I'm in the dollar "wait until the survey hits" crowd as well, and just grab a few things that I can dump into a Deadzone.
I know that wasn't the focus of this campaign, but you can't deny that if they had incorporated some sort of official DZ rule/ adaptability scenarios it would have probably helped. It can't be any worse than Judge Dredd in regards to extra random stuff to add, and in the long run it could have been an extra source of revenue as DB teams are getting into after hours hooligan style brawls with members of rival teams.
Never hurts to help scratch more of that Necromunda itch.
^I've probably said this half a dozen times, but I think I'm gonna hit up hasslefree for a bunch of guns and weaponize well over half of the DBX minis for deadzone and general fun.
I think having compatibility rules would have diluted what Deadzone is. I keep seeing a handful of people asking for this stuff, but I think it would have been a short-sighted move to boost this game but would have taken DZ in an odd direction.
Keep Deadzone to military outfits that look like they mean business.
I can see preserving the serious tone of deadzone and keeping it what it is... but I would still like to have some gang/criminal/military skirmish battles between other factions using my DZ rules and terrain.
Earth Dragon wrote: I think having compatibility rules would have diluted what Deadzone is. I keep seeing a handful of people asking for this stuff, but I think it would have been a short-sighted move to boost this game but would have taken DZ in an odd direction.
Keep Deadzone to military outfits that look like they mean business.
You mean like the Plague and Veer-myn, factions that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag?
Or just forget about your precious Deadzone. Mantic's never been coy about making stuff for GW games in the past; just give us the models we want and trust that we're smart enough to know what to do with them.
Earth Dragon wrote: I think having compatibility rules would have diluted what Deadzone is. I keep seeing a handful of people asking for this stuff, but I think it would have been a short-sighted move to boost this game but would have taken DZ in an odd direction.
Keep Deadzone to military outfits that look like they mean business.
You mean like the Plague and Veer-myn, factions that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag?
Or just forget about your precious Deadzone. Mantic's never been coy about making stuff for GW games in the past; just give us the models we want and trust that we're smart enough to know what to do with them.
Have you ever considered you're looking in the wrong place? Most of your comments lend to this not going with your personal pre-conceived notions. Is that really Mantic's fault or blunder? Is a "sports game" really where you should have been looking for Necromunda figures?
Is a "sports game" really where you should have been looking for Necromunda figures?
A sports game about the denizens of sci-fi human cities' seedy underbellies, running, throwing things at each other and beating the hell out of one another, with no rules? Sure.
Is a "sports game" really where you should have been looking for Necromunda figures?
A sports game about the denizens of sci-fi human cities' seedy underbellies, running, throwing things at each other and beating the hell out of one another, with no rules? Sure.
Taken so far out of context it isn't even funny.
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CptJake wrote: Good to se it still has the digital short story compilation instead of something like the season 6 rules.
Earth Dragon, I know you support them but looking at that graph there's no denying they've bungled this a bit- people jump on like moths to a flame with even so-so campaigns in the last two days, and that is not happening here... (or at least, not nearly to the usual extent, it will have some last day boost, of course).
I am not sure if a better campaign in and by itself would've helped.
A lot of "flaws" were in the basic design outside the Kickstarter-campaign.
A) Problems with delivering big, complicated pledges.
B) Problems delivering good sculpts from the art.
C) Problems with Ronnies ex-GW-buddy Jake Thornton delivering rules that are up to scratch
D) A "seedy criminal underbelly"-theme that somehow never happend between all those Trekkie-Wet-Dream-Aliens
E) "re-selling" a game they already sold
F) trying to sell DreadBall fans on a "new" DreadBall, when they already have one
(I know E and F are kinda internally contradicting)
It was an odd product start to finish, and it worked "reasonably well" for that, I think.
One thing that has just occurred to me. The really expensive pledge levels, the $2000 + ones. Hardly any of them have been filled. I would have thought they would have been lined up and ready to go beforehand.
Depends on the sculptor, his schedule, the complexity, if it is going to be castable, the amount of design work done beforehand and other factors such as size and medium.
An estimation of 300-500 would not be entirely unreasonable, but it is better to ask.
@SS BWAHAHA, I had to rush to the kickstarter update page to see if those were real or if you were just clever. Still laughing my butt off. Too bad we won't reach FGM...
So..................... with a budget of 3.000, which Mantic is asking (admittedly, it includes a not-quite-400-USD Frenzy pledge), I might get one made? Two even? And not sign off the rights to that miniature to Mantic Games?
Well, yeah. But, it depends. Do you want the model to be used just for you? Or is the thought that people are going to be buying and playing with a model of 'you' the world over?
How much would it cost to hire a freelance sculptor to make me a miniature?
Assuming Humaniod character, not riding a dinosuar:
Concept Art - $100~200
Sculptor - $300~500
If you want it molded (assuming Metal) to make extras.. $200 for the master mold, $100 for the production mold, $1ish per metal figure depending on amount of parts.
RiTides wrote: Earth Dragon, I know you support them but looking at that graph there's no denying they've bungled this a bit- people jump on like moths to a flame with even so-so campaigns in the last two days, and that is not happening here... (or at least, not nearly to the usual extent, it will have some last day boost, of course).
That's wasn't what I was commenting for Alex. He was complaining that there isn't enough models for him to convert to his other systems. But some of what he is griping about wouldn't have been as needed for DBX, you know, the game Mantic is trying to fund. His response was completely out of context to my response.
I chucked in a dollar as I quite liked some of the concept art but thats about all at this stage.
I have to agree with what others have said. Looking at the amounts it going up by I think a lot of other people are doing the same as me and hedging there bets - worse case scenario I lose 75p. Best case scenario I get some nifty figures for peanuts. I wish I'd done this for deadzone to be honest to get my mits of cheap plastic enforcers.
Compel wrote: Well, yeah. But, it depends. Do you want the model to be used just for you? Or is the thought that people are going to be buying and playing with a model of 'you' the world over?
Neither. Just the "feeling" that the 3.000 Mantic is asking might be a tad much if I would want my own personal figure. I guess it wouldn't come with the Mantic marketing and Miiiiiiiillons of other DreadBall players buying it through Mantic to look at my happy face when they play with the MvP in my image.
Of course, I already "immortalized" myself in DreadBall history with Dakka's Zzor Naming Contest (or I didn't, cause credit was never given, but oh well).
Zweischneid wrote: So..................... with a budget of 3.000, which Mantic is asking (admittedly, it includes a not-quite-400-USD Frenzy pledge), I might get one made? Two even? And not sign off the rights to that miniature to Mantic Games?
Off topic a bit, but
You'd get a really good mini for that price by a top end sculptor although you'd probably have to wait a fair while
the design your own mini from the first Mierce campaign cost £2000 and came with proper concept art and 10 resin casts too (mini sculpted by Stéphane Cammosetto )
(3 people paid for this only one has been completed so far, one has had the art approved and one is still under discussion),
Zweischneid wrote: So..................... with a budget of 3.000, which Mantic is asking (admittedly, it includes a not-quite-400-USD Frenzy pledge), I might get one made? Two even? And not sign off the rights to that miniature to Mantic Games?
Off topic a bit, but
You'd get a really good mini for that price by a top end sculptor although you'd probably have to wait a fair while
the design your own mini from the first Mierce campaign cost £2000 and came with proper concept art and 10 resin casts too (mini sculpted by Stéphane Cammosetto )
(3 people paid for this only one has been completed so far, one has had the art approved and one is still under discussion),
Cool. Though GBP 2.000 and USD 3.000 isn't too far off after all.
To be fair, Mantic will also include the rules for the customer sculpts. Not saying that adds a crap ton of value to anyone but Mantic as they'll get to sell that, but if you just get your own fig sculpted it won't have Official Mantic Rulz!1!!11!
I kind of assume that any pledge that's well over the sweet spot, or 2x 3x sweet spot, or the "get it all" pledge level are kind of charity spots anyway. Like when they offer the 5000 dollar spot to "come have dinner with the designers, we'll even buy it" pledge level, you probably aren't "getting your money's worth" so much as publicly showing your support with extra funds that you don't necessarily want a material return for. The "get your own model made" pledges feel kind of halfway inbetween to me.
Compel wrote: Well, yeah. But, it depends. Do you want the model to be used just for you? Or is the thought that people are going to be buying and playing with a model of 'you' the world over?
Neither. Just the "feeling" that the 3.000 Mantic is asking might be a tad much if I would want my own personal figure. I guess it wouldn't come with the Mantic marketing and Miiiiiiiillons of other DreadBall players buying it through Mantic to look at my happy face when they play with the MvP in my image.
Lets break that down a bit...
$3,000 - Painted Rampage + A Dude
-10% (KickAzon Fee)
= $2700
- $100 (Concept)
- $400 (Sculpt)
= $2200
- Rampage ($150 list, going to guess about $75 Cost)
- Painter $??? (105 +1 miniatures, Our goto Guy would be around $20 a fig. so $2120)
= $5 going into the Kickstarter pot afterwards.
CptJake wrote: To be fair, Mantic will also include the rules for the customer sculpts. Not saying that adds a crap ton of value to anyone but Mantic as they'll get to sell that, but if you just get your own fig sculpted it won't have Official Mantic Rulz!1!!11!
Yeah, but "official" MvP Rulz!1!!11! might as well not be there, cause you can't really use MvPs in all but the biggest leagues. So what's the point anyhow. All DreadBall MvPs are, in essence, "nice" miniatures for painting/alt-sculpt/house-rule games.
Compel wrote: Well, yeah. But, it depends. Do you want the model to be used just for you? Or is the thought that people are going to be buying and playing with a model of 'you' the world over?
Neither. Just the "feeling" that the 3.000 Mantic is asking might be a tad much if I would want my own personal figure. I guess it wouldn't come with the Mantic marketing and Miiiiiiiillons of other DreadBall players buying it through Mantic to look at my happy face when they play with the MvP in my image.
Lets break that down a bit...
$3,000 - Painted Rampage + A Dude
-10% (KickAzon Fee)
= $2700
- $100 (Concept)
- $400 (Sculpt)
= $2200
- Rampage ($150 list, going to guess about $75 Cost)
- Painter $??? (105 +1 miniatures, Our goto Guy would be around $20 a fig. so $2120)
= $5 going into the Kickstarter pot afterwards.
Fair enough. Missed the painted part. Rampage painted without sculpt is 2.000, so the sculpt is 1.000 by itself. Sounds reasonable.
Earth Dragon wrote: That's wasn't what I was commenting for Alex. He was complaining that there isn't enough models for him to convert to his other systems. But some of what he is griping about wouldn't have been as needed for DBX, you know, the game Mantic is trying to fund. His response was completely out of context to my response.
Actually, all I'd need to be happy is one more free team in Rage and one more team to spend the freebie on.
The point of having the miniatures pull double duty is to double the number of people buying them, and using that added market to subsidise the cost of making Xtreme bigger. You know, like the Tycho exclusive was supposed to do.
GrimDork wrote: Don't forget that last sponsor they funded lets you field an entire team of nothing but MvPs, so that's always something
Yeah, that one is going to be a hoot.
Why buy a newbie Orx Guard (13 MC) when you can just have Buzzcut (11 MC)?
Why buy a plain ol' Human Striker (10 MC) when you can have fething Nightshade (8 MC)?
I don't think this isn't surging because there isn't a market for futuristic sports games... I think pretty clearly there is! I think it's because, everyone who believes in Mantic enough to jump was already in. Others were waiting to see sculpts... which didn't materialize, so they just pledge a dollar/pound.
CptJake wrote: To be fair, Mantic will also include the rules for the customer sculpts. Not saying that adds a crap ton of value to anyone but Mantic as they'll get to sell that, but if you just get your own fig sculpted it won't have Official Mantic Rulz!1!!11!
Yeah, but "official" MvP Rulz!1!!11! might as well not be there, cause you can't really use MvPs in all but the biggest leagues. So what's the point anyhow. All DreadBall MvPs are, in essence, "nice" miniatures for painting/alt-sculpt/house-rule games.
In basic DB, two players can agree (it's in the rules on page 50) to use MVPs in exhibition games without any league, at all.
In basic DB, two players can agree (it's in the rules on page 50) to use MVPs in exhibition games without any league, at all.
Two players can agree to play my own self-made rules for my own MvP too.
Either way, that IS how I played with MvPs so far, mostly if at all. Try it. You'll find that they are extremely out of whack, some are massively powerful, others barely equal to non-named players, with no known or apparent correlation to their anyhow low point costs.
Creator Mantic Games 12 minutes ago
hi all, Ronnie here on the comments for the next hour or so - so remember all facts will be well meant but probably incorrect
This is just amateur hour.
