It's only obvious that they're in trouble, but that in and of itself is so obvious that it's not really some special idea that needs to be iterated multiple times per page.
What's not obvious is whether they'll get it together. So, stating the obvious isn't really news, especially when already said so many times.
To get back on topic. SPM has its own niche market. As crappy as it is to put out tiny morsels for sale when so much has yet to be delivered, it generates cash flow into the company from their established niche. It's as good a strategy as any for keeping the cash flowing, which over time can enable a company to get out of trouble.
I do think they needed to diversity their market for a long time now. But they need their own original IP instead of buying licenses that are questionable in their selling strength. This then wastes production capacity.
First and foremost, as most of you have surmised, wave one will not be arriving in April as we had previously estimated. As we have shown in multiple updates, development and layout for most rewards is complete. (Development will be covered in more detail below.)
Production has obviously faced some major hurdles and delays. To overcome them, we have had to move the production of the Super Dungeon: Explore core game to a new manufacturer. We are beginning this shift with just Explore in order to iron out the process. We will then work with both of our manufacturing partners towards the creation of all of the additional rewards.
We have done (and will continue) all due diligence to ensure that all Super Dungeon product remains consistent and of the high quality you expect across all products. It is every bit as import to us, as it is to you, that the final Super Dungeon product is an exceptional experience.
This shift naturally leads to the question of timelines. While we have done our best to provide you with accurate estimates of timelines, we have obviously not been successful in our estimates. We apologize for this. It has not been our intention in any way to mislead you. Estimates were made based upon the best information we had available at the time. Going forward, we will no longer be providing time estimates. We will only be providing concrete milestones once they have been achieved. While this does not provide the false “comfort” of a delivery estimate, it will make it so that when we update you with a production milestone it will have the weight of having been hit.
Refund Policy Update
At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.
If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue
Future Updates and Community
Updates will continue every other week on Wednesdays. The only reason this update fell differently was due to our GAMA attendance. Our next update will be April 4th.
This Kickstarter is delayed, and as a backer you have every right to be frustrated with us. This was not a preorder, it was a product in development.
Obviously, they're not delivering Wave 1 to people's door by mid-April. We all knew that back in February, but it took SPM a long time to acknowledge reality. Their failure to provide notice of refund closure is poor form, and a likely a "Bad Faith' breach of contract. Particularly as they're not planning to start shipping within the next 8 weeks.
It would be nice if SPM were to re-read the Campaign Page and other Updates that they posted prior to the KS Campaign Close, as they form the actual contract between SPM and Backer. As of this latest Update, SPM intends to unilaterally and willingly breach that contract. Specifically the refund clause which says that they would accept refunds up to 8 weeks prior to shipping. If I still wanted a Refund, I would demand it to be paid within 8 weeks, or else to accrue penalty interest as of the 8th week. I'd charge whatever the going rate is at a Paycheck Loan company.
This update annoyed me so much. No more milestones until they hit them? That's a terrible way to run a project, especially with investors/stakeholders. To compound it, no more refunds so if you're unhappy with this situation you can get stuffed. What an awful company.
I'm still in because I wrote off the invested money ages ago and on the off chance something gets delivered I do want the minis, but this is essentially confirmation that the company is on the way out. I've put in a refund request anyway and will just unsubscribe from the Kickstarter updates so I never have to deal with them again.
I kept giving SPM the benefit of the doubt but this is getting to be a bit much now with the sudden 'ok no refunds now' out of nowhere. We're at...2 years post end date for SDE and nothing? Ok Relic Knights will be my last KS with them until they get their act together.
What made me raise a brow in their update is the part talking about them changing manufacturers because of whatever causes the delays/hurdles. And they're saying they will start with Explore, meaning the other rewards aren't included. I feel that won't be done in a few months, to me.
Yeah, plenty of reasons to be upset. And since they won't accept "free" refunds from now...that means it will be harder to get your money back if you're really not happy about waiting more.
The explanation about why they release resin SDE new miniatures is fair, to me. I'm not really okay with the price going up, but well...seems like it's becoming more common with chibi miniatures on the market, these days.
They've permanently burned their bridges with me. I won't ever buy anything from them again.
Not that I think it will matter. I expect them to go under before delivering at this point. If we're super lucky they'll deliver a Wave 1 of a core box to retail (and then to backers) before taking another two years to finally fold.
From what I can gather in the comments, they haven't actually been honouring refund requests for some time anyway....
No, they haven't, which is one reason I didn't bother asking.
I'm done with them too. I'd be surprised if they deliver anything other than a token release before either abandoning the project or folding completely.
With his latest delay in the Nov 2015 SDE Legends kickstarter, has anything been produced yet? Did they split it into waves of have they produced nothing?
SPM hasn't done anything except talk, and get samples.
SPM changing factory means they can't afford production that they had originally planned, same with reducing from Wave 1 to Explore (cut-down SDE 2.0 without Arcade rules) only. SPM simply cannot afford to tool and produce the full Wave 1, much less the original KS. They are functionally out of money, which is why they stopped providing refunds, and unilaterally stopped accepting refunds (despite being more than 8 weeks from shipping).
I got my refund for SDE last year already so I'm good. Still in for RK 2.0 since that actually looks to be delivering. I wonder if they've run into issues with their china manufacturing for SDE since I know a lot of factories got hit by the new strict environmental regulations that came into effect last year and basically had to close down for auditing until they passed or went bust.
The thing is, we are told they are using a new factory, but not told why. A legitimate WHY would go a long way. If they had one, I suspect they would be "blazing it from the mountains" to quote SPM's owner.
The only options are:
*The factory went out of business: Which would be a slam dunk disclosure and place the blame.
*The Factory produced poor quality work: Again, valid explanation.
*Factory prices went way up: Not great, but a valid explanation.
Now if they had an explanation, they would have given it. But they didn't. So all we can assume is:
*The factory is 'too busy': Which means SPM poor planning missed their window.
*The factory Dumped them as a client: Which means SPM is a bad customer.
*They couldn't afford the factory: Which means they looking for cheaper options.
We are looking at 8-12 months for now *JUST* SDE:Explore core. Which we will see Core at retail months before anything is delivered to backers as SPM won't eat 3 waves of shipping.
So they will make SDE: explore, release it to retail, and backers won't see anything until they get everything else through the snake, which means 18-24 months for backers to see even a single piece of this product in their hands.
Not if they hope to use the factory or those affiliated with the owners again (and they might as they did good work depending on why they couldn't use them this time)
especially since they hope to become a big time publisher
game companies are never going to be big enough to make turning down their business something an offended owner can't afford to do
(not that I necessarily think you're wrong in your analysis, just there are other options)
It's pretty obvious that SPM has burned too much of the SPM money on other things that didn't pan out.
Prior to the SDE:L KS launch, SPM had a quote to produce all of the KS in one go, but rules issues held things up (because SPM didn't actually work on the rules like they were supposed to), so that quote expired out.
As a result, SPM ended up breaking the product into Waves, with a greatly reduced "Wave 1" (2.0 cut down to Explore, just the Warbands). This would have been late 2017 (actual) production with delivery starting mid-Q1 2018 consistent the "April 2018" claim. SPM obviously weren't able to do that, either, and the quote expired at the end of 2017. During 2017, it comes to light that SPM is no longer able to afford PVC tooling for retail distribution, and has to switch to Prodos' resin.
Now, we're in 2018, and SPM can only produce Explore, without the Warbands. This is the minimum viable production run that makes something that could be sold at retail. And they need to look at getting yet another quote together, with a new manufacturing window, etc. But this is a problem, because SPM can no longer afford to produce things at the scale (and quality) originally spec'd. They need to find a manufacturer who will allow them to name their price. Lowest cost manufacturer who will squeeze them in, when they can. Zero priority.
Meanwhile, they have to preorder their special items, because they can't afford to produce additional stock that doesn't get sold immediately.
And now, SPM can't afford to process refunds at all.
Functionally, SPM is out of cash. They don't even have the $100-200 that it would take to refund backers. This is all due to SPM's inability to manage themselves.
Again. Not new and not news. And stating a lot of conjecture as fact is also neither, especially the same stuff multiple times per page.
The fact that SPM is in big trouble is something that everyone else realized already.
The spotlight is already on them. Now it's like a kid has grabbed the spotlight controls and is waving it around the forum so he feels special for putting the spotlight on things that it was already pointing at.
SPM have done everything in their power to avoid admitting the trouble they're in (they still haven't been clear on the extent and cause) so this latest update actually confirming problems is valid news.
Without clear communication from SPM then conjecture is all we have and given the completely farcical way they've handled the project then all we can assume is that there are deep structural problems and backers will be phenomenally lucky if they see delivery of any physical products.
If you have information to the contrary please share it, otherwise this thread serves as a way to vent for those of us who are likely to lose money on this venture and a warning to other potential backers or consumers not to get involved.
Agree... The only relevant communication from SPM since December 2017 is news... and the messed up thing is they still didn't really tell us much of anything. And since they have a history of bold-face lying to us, all we can do is look to past performance for an indicator of future performance.
The big 'change' right now is a factory change. Also the apparent 'killing off' of all games/product which are plastic driven as they seem like they will have no way to reprint anything until after this KS. NAS is dead and gone from the ND store. RRI will probably run until it sells out its stock and be gone. WotF has no Plastic minis. SDE inventory will reach rock bottom and not be reprinted. So that is a sign that future KS, won't maintain retail support, which makes it hard to buy-in to a game system to the tune of 300$+ if it is dead and unsupported 6 months later.
It is also clear they are in a rush to get SDE core to retail for retail purchase to save the franchise and infuse cash. There is no sign that KS backers will get that first shipment of SDE: explore core box.
The reneging on the refund policy is also news as it shows that John at SPM will breach a business agreement whenever it feels it suits him and they are not just bad at business but unethical as well. People explicitly backed the KS because they had the option to bail out with a full refund if it went pear shaped. SPM added that bit to explicitly draw in backers who might not have backed regardless of 'KS is not a pre-order'. Also, they allowed explicit PRE-ORDERS via their web store which has nothing to do with KS. So those people now being unable to get a refund is against consumer law. This is news as it lets people know what they should expect in future campaigns. It is easy to be ethical and responsible when everything is going well.
Is it true that they've contracted with Prodos to make the resin minis for their lines? If so, can someone post a link to the admission/press release? If that is the case then likely all the Starfinder miniatures will probably be coming from them as well as they're "masterpiece" resin.
NINJA DIVISION PULLING BACK FROM KICKSTARTER
'It's Not Responsible for Me To Expose My Brands to That.'
Posted by Milton Griepp on March 27, 2018 @ 3:51 am CT
Game publisher Ninja Divison has had considerable success funding projects on Kickstarter, but will no longer be funding large projects on the platform, Ninja Division Co-Owner and Creative Director John Cadice told ICv2 at GAMA Trade Show.
"It's important as publishers, and as studios and developers, as we start to get our feet under us to take a real hard look as how it is and why it is we use Kickstarter as a business," he said. "We have a great community we've been able to build up over time, but we've come to recognize that in our time working and developing in Kickstarter that you run the risk, as a business, of your eyes getting too big for the plate. You build big projects. You want to be ambitious. You want to go after all of this opportunity to give your customers all the things they want. We have gone through and redesigned whole products from scratch based on the feedback we get. We've added time to our time frames, everybody thinking that it's OK."
"But the added toxicity, …the way that it's swung online has made us shy away from wanting to even be a part of it. I don't think that it's responsible for any of our external business partners to have to be exposed to that. It's not responsible for me to expose my employees to that. It's not responsible for me to expose my brands to that."
Cadice didn’t rule out ever using Kickstarter if the project is right, but the company won’t be using Kickstarter for large projects. "If we're ever going to consider going back to Kickstarter it's going to be because we have something small, tidy, and tight that's finished and we're ready to go," he explained. "We don't need to be out there with a hat in hand asking for huge development monies for a thing, because it's not a place where we need to be. Yes, there's an opportunity for developers, both big and small, to make money in that environment, but it is a poisonous ecosystem that cuts both ways. It's smarter to step away if you have the chance to do so."
Ninja Divison’s last big project on Kickstarter was the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures, for which the company raised $457,539 from 2294 backers.
The company is not the first to withdraw from Kickstarter (Stonemaier was a highly visible departure from the platform back in 2016), and it’s not likely to be the last, although the overall trends are strongly positive, with 36% growth in 2017 (see "In-Depth Kickstarter Study Finds Healthy Games Category"). But the risks and consequences of problems are substantial, and for this publisher, it’s no longer worth it.
TL;DR: John blames KS for his poorly run project and 'toxicity', and claims to not want to use KS again to avoid negative feelings.
Truth: John Created toxicity with taking people's money, and delivering nothing with years of deception, lies, scope changes, poor business management and so on, and none of that has to do with KS. He can't use KS again, because people are on to him and he has maxed out his social credit cards on how much fans will cash advance him. That isn't KS fault, that is taking too much money with no way to pay it back with product.
If he wants to recover, he can assume the risk of development on his own money, make products which he has in-hand and sell them... FOR MONEY.
Indeed... whatever toxicity that exists is the result of Ninja Soda DIvision Pop's failures to deliver on time and/or in full for years on multiple projects, not the reverse.
Seriously now they are trying to blame backers! Sorry but no all of SPM/NDs problems are of their own making they happily took the money but now can’t deliver, backers have absolutely no control over a project how it’s run or how the money is spent.
There is no goodwill left to trade on so they can’t go to the KS well again they’ve already used the “create a new account trick” to hide past projects and backers are savvy enough to root out the real people behind a project.
I’ll wait for SDE Legends whenever it gets finished but I’m done with SPM/ND very glad I got a refund for Relic Knights when it became clear that SDE was in trouble.
Well I think it is both right and wrong to mention Stonemaier he left kickstarter because of the community alright, but his problem was that people always complained and he did everything right.
For the record the straw that broke the camels back were the complains about delivering earlier than he anticipated....
Now Ninja division has complains alright, but the complains are not about them doing things right.
I'm not as fed up with them as many are (despite waiting for stuff and being part of the European debacle of Rail Raider)
but they really did need to mention their own incompetence as well as backer anger as a reason for stepping back from KS
but as DaveC says it's not as if they're going to be able to float a new project on there without at lot of $1 pledges being made just to complain/ask where their undelivered projects are so it's a sensible move
Third in our masterclass resin miniature series for Super Dungeon Explore is Randy, Lrod of Spiders! This made-to-order offering is available for pre-order throughout the month of April only! Get yours now!
"The last galaxy is a place where mighty knights clash with the forces of the void, and a battle for survival rages. But that doesn't mean that the arcades will manage themselves. Randy has been charged with the sacred duty of managing one such arcade. Annoyed at customers who continually vaporize his place of work with high tech weaponry, Randy decided to program himself into his favorite game. But a typo prevented him from being a proper lord, even in a game..."
What's more terrifying than a mini boss roaring down at you with clear intent for destruction? One that is laid back in a hammock eyeing you with mild annoyance for having disturbed him.
We all know it's the quiet ones you have to watch out for.
Includes: •1x Randy, Lrod of Spiders Resin Model (Assembly Required)
•1x Mini Boss Card (Classic)
•1x Mini Boss Card (Arcade)
•1x Cheese Head Treasure Card
Randy, Lrod of Spiders is only available during the month of April.
Don't miss out, order yours today!
Very poignant (and accurate) satire. I wonder if the original author can make a similar stat card for John Candice's business partner, Scammin' Siembieda, for Robotech as well.
"The wargs of the Mistmourn Coast grow exceptionally dangerous. Unlike other wargs, they are not pack hunters. Instead, each one strikes out on its own to claim its territory. These beasts grow to exceptional size and are frequently manipulated by the Dark Consul against the heroes of Crystalia. When a warg leads the Consul's minions into battle, its howl emboldens those around it, driving them into a frenzy with the warg at their backs."
I know it may mean nothing to some of you, but Ninja Scott and Justin are answering again (to what they can answer) in the comment section of the SDE Legends Kickstarter.
I saw that, I wonder what new thing they have for sale? Presumably not another Kickstarter but I'm assuming it's something they don't want angry backers interfering in, so they're doing some preemptive damage control.
I find it a bit jarring that he's just posting again with no explanation of where they went or why communication dropped off a cliff right after the Starfinder Kickstarter ended.
Someone referenced GenCon, so I figure SPM is trying to head off protests and bad-mouthing in front of their potential customers and partners. Looking bad at GenCon is an existential threat to the company
caylentor wrote: I saw that, I wonder what new thing they have for sale? Presumably not another Kickstarter but I'm assuming it's something they don't want angry backers interfering in, so they're doing some preemptive damage control.
I find it a bit jarring that he's just posting again with no explanation of where they went or why communication dropped off a cliff right after the Starfinder Kickstarter ended.
On possibly a related note, the Starfinder kickstarter just posted on May2nd a production update with pics for the first time of a few figs. They post funding iirc split up the production into three waves so this is only a small fraction of the total but at least they had news to share. Maybe they realized that when they're simultaneously delaying multiple projects that posting bad news in one quickly spurs unflattering conversation in all of them so they hide until they eventually have good news?
They've got those statues coming soon, and with the new SDE figures they're putting out, hopefully some of those funds are going to make ensure things get finished.
Erik Mona, CCO wrote:Hi, everybody! I wanted to check in here with a quick update on the Worldscape Humble Bundle, and where we're at with delivery.
For starters, the four comics: Pathfinder Worldscape: Vampirella, Dejah Thoris, Re-Animator, and Swords of Sorrow, are completely finished and arrived at Paizo's warehouse last week. I'd be very surprised if the Worldscape comics that Adenai mentioned holding in hand were THESE Worldscape comics, since to my knowledge the only place these things exist in physical form are in the Paizo warehouse.
We have published a six-issue Pathfinder Worldscape series (the one that kicked off the whole idea) AND a previous set of four Pathfinder Worldscape One-Shots associated with a previous Humble Bundle (Tarzan, Warlord of Mars, Red Sonja, and Pathfinder Goblins), so there are at least 10 issues of "Pathfinder Worldscape" comics that Adenai may have had in hand, so I strongly suspect there's a bit of confusion here, since there shouldn't be any other way anyone can get these yet. Please, Adenai, let me know if in fact you somehow found copies of the new set in the wild.
We're currently waiting on Ninja Division, who is in production on the figures now. Orders for these guys exceeded ND's ability to produce with their normal supplier, so they had to find someone else to get them done. I am told to expect an exact delivery date from them on Tuesday of next week, and I will share it here with you guys once they have shared it with me. Apologies for the delay. This came as much of a surprise to us as it did to you, and we're working with Ninja Division to clear these minis as rapidly as possible.
I expect to get these figures relatively soon, in which case the plan will continue to be to hold the comics until the figures arrive, and send them together as soon as possible. Again, I'll let you guys know what's up as soon as I have the exact date myself, which should come next week.
As for someone already having the minis--that's certainly possible. Ninja Division did a small run for sale at Gen Con and through their website in August of last year, so there are probably about 100 of each figure floating around in the wild from this original production run. I suspect that the Black Friday bundle mentioned above was them burning off the 10s of copies they had left of the four models, far short of the thousands needed to fulfill this Humble Bundle effort.
I should note that the Humble Bundle comes with a FIFTH bonus figure of the Starfinder Envoy Navasi, which has never been released anywhere.
Thanks again for your patience with these. As the author of three of the four comics, I'm super eager to get these out to people so you can read them and let me know what you think. I'm also excited about the quality of the Worldscape figures, and hope that you agree they are awesome when you get them.
I'll be better able to tell you when that is next week.
I particularly liked this bit: "We're currently waiting on Ninja Division, who is in production on the figures now. Orders for these guys exceeded ND's ability to produce with their normal supplier, so they had to find someone else to get them done."
That's the exact same BS that ND has been feeding SDE Legends backers for months. ND is obviously completely out of money, and will be gone soon enough.
Hmmm, i'd rather suspect its Prodos being unreliable again?
It's not plastic (I don't think?) and if they'd arranged 5000 units and needed 10000 for example it could easily mean a resin producer couldn't provide it in timely fashion (after all most are pretty booked up)
Google says they sold 20,000+ Pathfinder Worldscape humble bundles, and I wouldn't be surprised if nearly all of them wanted the miniatures. That should have been an easy slam dunk for regular PVC production at lower per-part cost over of Prodos' resin.
It might well have made sense to use PVC, but they advertised resin
Pathfinder devotees will want to take note of the all-inclusive $45 tier, which will provide all of the items in the Humble RPG Book Bundle: Pathfinder Worldscape Ultimate Crossover, including our new finely detailed resin miniatures of Red Sonja, John Carter, Tarzan, and Tars Tarkas that will transport fans of Pathfinder Worldscape into the world of mystery, magic, and adventure! Scroll down for more information, and for a breakdown of each tier and all that’s included in this great, limited-time only bundle! Hit the $45 threshold for everything and be one of the first in the world to have these great playable figures from our friends at Ninja Division!
and the old material switcheroo is never good especially when the direction of travel is from higher to lower quality
Their normal supplier is unable to handle orders of over 100 each of every mini? I think Paizo should have chosen a different miniatures design company with better contacts in the industry then...
The latest masterclass miniature for Super Dungeon, the Furious Fungomancer! This new Kinoko Mini-Boss is sure to terrorize the field as his magical powers turn heroes into MUSHROOMS! This unique new mini-boss is sure to liven up any game in the Super Dungeon line! This item contains two masterclass resin models, one for the Fungomancer itself and another for any hapless heroes it changes into mushrooms. Unassembled and unpainted
Ninja Division Publishing and Soda Pop Miniatures are excited to announce that the ninjas of Ninja All-Stars are coming to the popular Super Dungeon line!
Beginning June 27, clan boxes, heroes, and ronin for Ninja All-Stars will be reissued as expansions for Super Dungeon, beginning with: Clan Kitsune (Warband), Uzumaki (Hero), Hanzo (Hero), and Jorogumo (Dungeon Boss), with additional expansions reissued monthly. These expansions will feature new Super Dungeon packaging and all of the cards necessary to play in Super Dungeon: Arena, Super Dungeon: Explore, and Super Dungeon: Arcade.
Additionally, each wave of releases will be accompanied by Super Dungeon x Ninja All-Stars Upgrade Deck. Each quarterly upgrade deck will contain the cards necessary for retailers and distributors to upgrade their existing stock and for customers to play using their existing Ninja All-Stars collections, for use in Super Dungeon. Monthly releases and upgrade decks will be available through ninjadivision.com and all your normal retail and distribution outlets.
These exciting new releases will be accompanied by a series of web articles and a richly detailed new storyline, Island of Shadows, that tells the tale of how these two kingdoms discovered one another and what adventures have arisen because of it. Fans will be thrilled as they read the story of how the citizens of Crystalia discover the island continent of Kagejima and its inhabitants. The rest of the story will be created by the fans as shadowy ninjas of Kagejima and the mighty Heroes of Crystalia clash within the Super Dungeon range of board games.
The Ninja All-Stars board game will continue to be available while supplies last. [ie if you want it grab it now]
whatever the reason for this it's no doubt a good thing as it give SDE a new area and bunch of new minis and removes potential confusion
(Speculation, People always wanted the crossover right from the point of the original KS? NAS is no longer selling ? Streamlining their offerings, Option to convert 'dead' stock to saleable stuff (probably not as unpacking and repacking stuff in new boxes in the USA is probably not cost effective))
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: (Speculation, People always wanted the crossover right from the point of the original KS? NAS is no longer selling ? Streamlining their offerings, Option to convert 'dead' stock to saleable stuff (probably not as unpacking and repacking stuff in new boxes in the USA is probably not cost effective))
At the time NAS came out, I was pretty interested in getting NAS Warbands for SDE, but there wasn't a package that appealed to me.
If these warbands are the KS ones in plastic bags (as ND likes to ship KS stuff), there might not be any retail packaging, so doing a print run of boxes & card might be able to convert dead overstock into retail product. Recall how SPM keeps trying to not ship KS product in retail boxes, as we saw with RRI and SDE:L
Ninja All-Stars has some of my favorite models ever made. I'm glad they aren't abandoning the line, but I am a little upset that we never got more boards and scenarios for the original game (they were announced, but never released). A fan-maintained living rulebook seems like a really cheap way out. Also, you know, SDE isn't exactly swimming along that smoothly right now either...
Yeah, the NAS warbands in general felt like they were designed for SDE to begin with before someone decided they could sell them as a separate game reusing the sculpts in different colored plastics. They were pretty immediately an exciting SDE option, but there was no way to get one of the cool sets without getting saddled with an avalanche of bad ones. I might get around to picking up Naruto now at least.
In great choruses the Rock Singers call to the heavens, with the Song of Stars. Their song awakens the spirit of the stars, and draws fragments of starmetal to the earth. In her lifetime a Rock Singer may only ever succeed in calling a few ounces of this precious metal, but with it the guild works wonders.
The Star Guild Rock Singer is in stock and available today!
Occassionally a gnome inventor or miner goes a bit...mad. Lobbing explosive shells and driving over hapless Heroes, these bizzare dungeon bosses bully lesser monsters to collect raw materials for their inventions.
The Gnomish Excavator is in stock and available today
Fighter's rejoice! Two new opponents have arrived for your games of Way of the Fighter. In addition to their own unique moves, this fighter deck includes the Brutal technique pack for Hard style decks, and the Lock technique pack for Wrestle style decks.
The newest Takoashi x Super Dungeon Masterclass Miniature, the House Phoenix Pugilist's sculpt is ready for battle. Due Aug 2nd http://ow.ly/khNj50i5QRW
Future House Publishing Brings the World of Super Dungeon to Life as a Five-Book Series
Future House Publishing (FHP) has partnered with Soda Pop Miniatures (SPM) to produce a five-book series based in the Super Dungeon world of Crystalia. To promote the launch of the series, Future House Publishing will be running a Kickstarter to provide fans with the opportunity to pledge for the books and limited-edition miniatures of the main characters.
When asked about the partnership Dietrich Stella, co-creator of Super Dungeon, said, “We have always focused on creating Super Dungeon as a living breathing world, so the opportunity to expand Super Dungeon’s story and world beyond the games is tremendously exciting. We cannot wait for fans, new and old, to experience Super Dungeon as never before!”
Future House Publishing has assembled a team of six authors to bring the Super Dungeon world to life. Creative Director at FHP, Adam Glendon Sidwell, is co-authoring the first book in the series with Zachary James.
Sidwell founded FHP after the enormous success of his debut self-published book, Evertaster, in June 2012. Since then, FHP has published more than 50 science-fiction, fantasy, and middle-grade books, sweeping the 2016 Utah State Book Awards in the Young Adult Books category.
Past Future House authors Christopher Keene and D.W. Vogel have seen their own success through FHP. Vogel’s Horizon Alpha series sold over 5,000 copies in the first year of publication and reached Amazon’s Top 100 Best Sellers List. The third book in the series is slated for release next month. Both Keene and Vogel are authoring books in the Super Dungeon series.
These authors will be joined by Dan Allen, author of The Forgotten Heirs Trilogy, and David J. West, who is best known for his paranormal Westerns and horror fiction.
Adam Sidwell said, “Super Dungeon is so rich with lore, it was practically begging us to write characters and plot out storylines inside its universe. Each author has really grown into the story and conveyed important elements of the existing lore in compelling ways. I couldn’t be more excited about this.”
After its month-long Kickstarter, the five-book Super Dungeon series will be available in print wherever books are sold, including Barnes and Noble, Amazon, and Indie bookstores, as well as on all major ebook platforms. The special edition mini figures, designed by SPM and manufactured by FHP, will primarily be sold during the Kickstarter with limited stock available afterward.
Sidwell, Vogel, and Allen will also tour schools with their new Super Dungeon releases in addition to their other titles. For more information on having these authors visit your school, follow this link: https://www.futurehousepublishing.com/assemblies/
Now Future House Publishing is an independent real company (ie it's not something set up by Ninja Division) with a successful publishing track record
So on that score I'm not bothered by them running a kickstarter to promote these books
but I doubt those that are screaming for Soda Pop/Ninja Divisons blood over Legends etc are going to give them an easy ride
and the inclusion of LE minis no doubt made by Ninja Division is going to make it worse, (and here I do have worries simply because they're having trouble getting the Starfinder stuff produced fast enough either because of logistics or cash flow and adding another project to fulfil is unlikely to speed that up)
I have a lot of friends in the publishing industry. 5k books isn't really something to be bragging about and I think I know people that have turn down offers from Future Press as I believe their contracts are trash. I'm sure Sodapop is getting some licensing deal but I doubt they're going to make much out of this.
I suspect your right, probably more a 'we've got books for our IP, just like GW, Privateer Press etc' than any significant payment (or even any upfront payment)
and the Amazon top 100 is fairly easy to manipulate with 'deal' pricing if all you want is a quick splash appearance
but still they'll have SDE books and that's probably a good thing even if they're fairly bland licenced book stuff (and if they're actually good even better, Black Library has done fine with loads of fodder and the occasional gem)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I suspect your right, probably more a 'we've got books for our IP, just like GW, Privateer Press etc' than any significant payment (or even any upfront payment)
and the Amazon top 100 is fairly easy to manipulate with 'deal' pricing if all you want is a quick splash appearance
but still they'll have SDE books and that's probably a good thing even if they're fairly bland licenced book stuff (and if they're actually good even better, Black Library has done fine with loads of fodder and the occasional gem)
True. I'm sure any exposure brand wise would be good but first They actually have to complete the version 2 of the game since a lot of places dumped SDE 1 a while ago. Doesn't help to have a book out for your game if you can't buy the game.
JohnHwangDD wrote:With how many bridges they've burnt, who would buy them?
The publisher does a lot of kids books and so they're probably going to target 10 year old and such.
FWIW, here is SPM/ND talking about how they bit off more than they can chew. The pertinent part starts around 5:53 in case it doesn't do it automatically. I follow them for their Starfinder minis kickstarter and those comments are really starting to sound like ND's first project, Robotech Tactics.
As an example, the current Human Champion's pose prevents him from being unicast. Our sculpting team understood this and as reposed the Human Champion to be unicast friendly!
IIRC, Unicast is what Prodos calls their one piece method. Also, after so many years in the business, SPM/ND apparently didn't know the difference between a slotted base and a nonslotted base. Wow..
Well, ND was the "publisher" (more like distributor) for Prodos, but has ended that relationship. Doesn't mean that ND doesn't use any Prodos services, of course. I'm curious what ND and Prodos' current relationship is.
As an example, the current Human Champion's pose prevents him from being unicast. Our sculpting team understood this and as reposed the Human Champion to be unicast friendly!
IIRC, Unicast is what Prodos calls their one piece method. Also, after so many years in the business, SPM/ND apparently didn't know the difference between a slotted base and a nonslotted base. Wow..
They have been using them on Relic Knights 2, Way of the Fighter and Starfinder minis and they are way behind with the minis on all 3 projects, it was brought up who was casting during each their campaigns so its not new "news"
They parted ways with regard to the AVP distributorship mentioned above but apparently they're still using them for casting (and complaining about it a bit as one of the myriad reasons they're way behind on the their latest Starfinder minis kickstarter).
Just noticed this is in the KS comments - more shady goings on the Sodapop store - http://sodapopminiatures.com/new-releases/ has been shut down and a new Ninja Division store put in it's place but none of the details or accounts have been transferred and guess where all of the SDE Legends backer info and pledge details was stored and can no longer be accessed. They have given some excuse about wanting to have everything under the ND brand going forward.
I still have the confirmation email stored at least.
While the desire to be all Ninja Division branded which seems to be the choice going forward is plausable not transferring over the data for outstanding orders is stupid,
but maybe it was less a case of choosing to move and more a case of being pushed if they'd had trouble paying the company or individual who ran the previous version of the store for them on time? (do we know if the back end of the new store looks like the old one)
If they have switched store provider that would be a good reason for no data transfer as getting 2 sets of software to reliably talk to one another is a pain in the backside
Anyone have any idea what this document is? Complete fabrication? Response to some sort of BBB or legal/regulatory complaint? It was posted over in the Starfinder Kickstarter comments.
Massive wall of text copy paste from the google doc above posted in the spoiler below.
Spoiler:
Response to complaint #536563
Super Dungeon is a board game created by Soda Pop Miniatures LLC, and designed and published by its
sister company Ninja Division Publishing LLC.
In 2015 Ninja Division Publishing, under license from Soda Pop Miniatures, ran a crowdfunding campaign on
the Kickstarter platform to fund a new edition of the Super Dungeon board game. The campaign raised
$1,290,522 through pledges by 6,611 backers. The project had an estimated completion date of December
2016. As of the date of this letter, this project’s completion is currently delayed while we continue final
development of some components and actively seek additional funding in order to complete the project.
We have every intention to complete the project and fulfill the promised rewards.
Kickstarter
What is Kickstarter?
Kickstarter is a platform to fund projects that may not have been possible through traditional funding methods.
“Kickstarter PBC is a funding platform for creative projects. Everything from films, games, and
music to art, design, and technology.[1]”
“Backers that support a project on Kickstarter get an inside look at the creative process, and help
that project come to life. They also get to choose from a variety of unique rewards offered by the
project creator. Rewards vary from project to project, but often include a copy of what is being
produced (CD, DVD, book, etc.) or an experience unique to the project. Project creators keep
100% ownership of their work, and Kickstarter cannot be used to offer equity, financial returns, or
to solicit loans.[2]”
What was the Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter?
The Super Dungeon Kickstarter was launched to fund the development and creation of three groups of
new products.[3]
1. A refresh of the existing Super Dungeon board game with a “2nd Edition,” designed to improve the
game play.
2. A large format expansion, called Super Dungeon Legends, that introduces roleplaying elements to
the core game.
3. A line of small expansions, designed to supplement gameplay and add variety.
The Kickstarter proved an overwhelming success, raised $1,290,522 through pledges by 6,611 backers, with
an estimated completion of December 2016.
Our Obligation
Once the Kickstarter successfully funded Kickstarter’s Terms of Use define our obligations as quoted
below:
“When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each
reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest
communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must
understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering
something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something
could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised. [4.Terms
of Use Section 4]”
Complaints and Fulfillment
The central issue in the complaint(s) filed against us is that the Kickstarter is now almost two years delayed
and some backers are concerned that they will not receive their rewards. We remain 100% fully committed to
doing everything in our power to fulfill our obligation despite the delays and hurdles we have encountered.
Delay
One of the central assumptions of the complaint(s) filed is that Kickstarter is a “preorder” for a product. This is
not the case. As cited in the Kickstarter terms above “backers must understand that when they back a
project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may
be changes or delays”
Product Testing
As part of this creative process we involved backers in a public “beta” test of the rules for the products
included in the Kickstarter. This involved periodic posting of rules in development, which allowed backers
to play the game using the rules and provide feedback.
After months of testing, feedback to the revised 2nd Edition product was lukewarm at best. This led us to
make the decision to scrap the existing rules and begin anew from scratch. Our reasoning being that part
of funding through Kickstarter was that this was a creative process, and our backers desired adjustments
to the product to better fit their expectations. So in the mutual interest of creating a more satisfying end
result we began again. This decision was explained in detail in an update to backers, and was widely well
received and considered as a positive development, even though such a decision would incur delays.[5]
Unfortunately, we did not fully realise the complete ramifications and ripple effects of this decision.
Project Changes
Through continued development of the 2nd Edition product, it became apparent that changes to the
project were required.
1. The 2nd Edition product which was intended to be a single boxed game with only incremental changes
would need to be broken out into three distinct products: Super Dungeon Explore, Super Dungeon
Arcade, Super Dungeon Pet Parade.
2. The Super Dungeon Legends expansion could not meet quality expectations as an expansion and was
turned into a standalone product. Requiring further significant development.
3. The smaller single expansions would all require complete redevelopment to be useable as part of new
changes for the above products.
These changes were decided upon as part of the ongoing development process for the project and to
satisfy both company and backer expectations of quality. However, they also increased development time,
development costs, manufacturing costs, and future shipping costs. All of which we absorbed, at no
additional cost to backers. These changes were communicated to backers via an update. [6]
As an apology for the delays and changes we provided backers with additional rewards, including a new
deluxe model and new cards increasing their gameplay options. Like the changes to the products this incurred
additional costs to us as well as increased development time.[7]
Health Issues
In March 2017, Dietrich Stella the lead designer for Super Dungeon, developed heart problems. This led to a
911 call, multiple ER visits, and a hospital stay. It also led to approximately 6 months limited work ability while
seeking treatment. While this delay was not initially made public, in an effort to preserve privacy, it was
eventually discussed in the Kickstarter comments [8] and in a video Q&A in the interest of full transparency. [9]
Realizing we had lost more time and needing additional hands we hired a new designer Justin Gibbs in August
of 2017 to help continue Super Dungeon’s development.
Finances
While the crowdfunding campaign successfully raised funds towards the project’s creations, delays and the
project’s increase in scope from changes lead to serious cash flow issues within the company which we
continue to battle in an attempt to fulfill our obligation.
Initial Funding
The initial funds raised for the Kickstarter were collected at the end of 2015.
● Funds Raised: $1,277,204 (approximately $13,318 of pledges bounced)
● Total Fees: -$103,386 (These include Kickstarter and payment processing fees.)
● Project Expenses: -$485,679 (This includes license fees, marketing, outside art, sculpting, writing,
etc.)
● Refunds: -$53,441.00
● Annual Overhead: -$343,559 (This includes payroll, facilities leasing, and additional overhead.)
Initial Funding was able to cover initial development as well as the company’s annual overhead for the end of
2015 and all of 2016. However, the project changes and additional development required (as outlined above)
required us to use remaining funds towards our annual overhead for 2017, essentially exhausting the funds
earned from Kickstarter. While also not being able to bring the product to market for 2017 retail sales.
With a significant amount of the project’s development complete, the majority of production was expected to
begin in November 2017, which we communicated with backers via an update. [10] The products that we were
able to complete development of during 2016 - 2017 were shown in an update to backers in early 2018. [11]
Unfortunately, the funds we anticipated to have in place in order to begin manufacturing did not materialize.
Required Funds to Complete Project
With the Kickstarter funds expended it was upon us to be able to self fund the necessary cash needed to
complete the project. The remaining estimates for completion of the project are shown below.
● Manufacturing: $490,592.00
● Shipping: $238,000.00
● Remaining Development: $17,400
Raising the funds needed was attempted (and continues to be attempted) through profits of non-Super
Dungeon projects as well as outside investor funding.
To date we have still not been able to secure funding for the approximately $750,000 needed to complete the
project. However, we continue to work diligently in an attempt to find the funds.
Financial Disclosure
As a privately held LLC, financial details of the project have, to date, remained private in order to prevent a “run
on the bank” scenario for refund requests from backers; to not jeopardize potential investment opportunities; or
to erode existing partners’ confidence in the company. (Partners and investors in need-to-know situations are,
of course, made aware.)
Kickstarter does require a financial disclosure in their terms and conditions under the following requirements:
“If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic
obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way
of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only
remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
● they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what
prevents them from finishing the project as planned;”[12.Terms of Use Section 4]
At this time, we are still actively “making every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to
the best possible conclusion” — which is complete fulfillment of all rewards.
Project Future
We continue to work towards bringing this project to fruition. However, we continue to have multiple hurdles
that we are overcoming.
Cashflows
Super Dungeon is the company’s primary income source. With the delays and inability to manufacture, we
have seen a steady decline in our sales and cashflows. This has lead to a company relocation to a smaller
facility, layoffs, furloughs, and inventory liquidation. Despite the picture painted by some complaints that our
owners have “taken the money and run”; our owners have been especially hard hit, selling their homes,
draining savings accounts, and going months with reduced, or no salaries all in an attempt to reduce our
overhead and free up cash and move the project forward.
Outward Communication
We have always strived to present open communication with our backers. We have posted 132 updates to our
Kickstarter. We also have a dedicated customer support representative who answers emails, engages on
social media, and communicates directly with backers in the Kickstarter comments sections.
However, as the delay drags on, communication from a small group of backers has become increasingly vocal
and hostile. We have been accused of being liars, had threats made to our homes and families, had
campaigns actively targeting our other projects in an attempt to make them fail, as well as targeted social
media campaigns against us.
During 2018 the actions of these hostile backers has become increasingly rampant including actively rating
products as poor to damage the company’s sales, letter campaigns to the BBB and to our partners, creating
false social media accounts using our names to spread misinformation, and now filing complaints to the AGs office. The sum total of this has added to our cashflow burdens, mired us in a seemingly never ending cycle of
rebuting misinformation and disputing complaints, and severely reduced company morale. If necessary,
documentation of all of these items can be provided.
While we certainly understand and feel that frustration in the delays is justified, the constant hostility led us to
make a decision in June to pull back from our regular Kickstarter updates. Our new policy is that once we have
concrete information regarding production and fulfillment we will post an update on it. Anything else appears to
only stir the hornet’s nest and invite further hostilities.
Remaining Options
Despite the above issues, we continue to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to fulfill our obligation.
Currently, we have a few options we are pursuing:
● We are in discussion with multiple companies about an acquisition of our studio. This includes
assistance in fulfilling our obligations.
● We are currently working with our manufacturing partner to produce Super Dungeon Arcade on credit.
While this is single product from the Kickstarter, it is considered a core product that has the potential to
jump start sales of our other existing products in the marketplace.
● Should one of our acquisition options fail to come through, or the Super Dungeon Arcade printing
proves a success, our manufacturer has expressed interest in working further with us on additional
products from the Kickstarter to slowly roll out production and meet our obligations.
If documentation of these discussions is required we are happy to provide them.
Conclusion
We understand backers’ frustration in the delay. While it has held up the delivery of $50-300 in rewards to any
given backer, the cost of the delay to the company and the people who have worked tirelessly towards its
creation has been millions of dollars in lost revenues, lost jobs, and future opportunity. This is in no way a
result we would have intentionally caused, nor is one that we have arrived at through a breach of our
Kickstarter obligation.
We have worked diligently and in good faith to bring the project to its best possible conclusion, and we
continue to do so.
Thank you for your time in considering our response to the filed complaint. If you require any additional
documentation or clarification please do not hesitate to contact us.
I believe it is a legitimate response by SPM/ND to a State Attorney General, trying to preempt legal charges from said AG.
In short, it confirms that SPM/ND has misspent whatever funds they had received and will not be delivering much of anything in the near future. The company is bankrupt with no way of digging out.
I don't necessarily think it says the funds were miss spent (although they might have been), but they're certainly gone and delivery looks unlikely at present
I can only hope they can get Relic Knights out and so on sale giving an income stream), and Starfinder completed (showing they're a viable partner for design... I actually can't imagine pathfinder didn't insist the KS money for manufacture/shipping for this wasn't held separately)
Mymearan wrote: So they’re missing $750 000 in order to complete the KS... yeah this isn’t going to end well. Maybe if they manage to find someone to buy them out.
According to that, yup. And that amount corresponds to around how much they spent for general overhead for 2016 and 2017 and part of 2018 before they ran out ($348k per year) that they seem to have taken out exclusively from the kickstarter after *choosing* to rewrite the game system multiple times leading to delays. I don't think paying their general expenses like utilities rent for multiple years after the (estimated) delivery date advertised in the kickstarter when it funded was what backers were expecting their money was to be used for instead of production/delivery.
In any case, it'd be great to hear which apparent AG or regulatory body they're responding to (assuming it's real again) as none of the ones that their earlier failed project, Robotech Tactics, worked on with Palladium seemed to care.
I can only hope they can get Relic Knights out and so on sale giving an income stream), and Starfinder completed (showing they're a viable partner for design... I actually can't imagine pathfinder didn't insist the KS money for manufacture/shipping for this wasn't held separately)
It's not looking good for starfinder as I follow Ninja Soda Division Pop exclusively for that project. Only about two dozen minis have made it out in theory and those apparently haven't made it to most backers (an inconsistent number/selection to some US backers and none internationally). Many backers report receiving poorly casted minis with excess flash, a shiny detailess finish, and/or missing/broken parts. A recent comment put it best when a backer looked at the prepainted ones that just arrived in stores and their KS minis that were the same sculpt looked like the rejected castings from that production run. YMMV. If they do finish Starfinder, it'll also be years later given the rate they're currently going.
I saw a Starfinder mini in the wild the other day. It was... meh?
Anyway, posted in the other thread, but mostly just disappointed. Justin Gibbs really gave them a game designer, which has always been where SodaPop's appealing art failed to translate initial excitement into long term excitement.
A friend who backed RK2.0 convinced me to finally build my 1.0 kickstarter and the game is legitimately pretty interesting. Unfortunately, its got a pretty bad reputation to overcome and frankly, after this, I don't see that happening. Even if it gets out the door, I'm afraid its a ship that will quickly lose its way without Justin at the wheel.
Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Yep, it doesn't sound good. Still...I would like the honest answer of SPM here. Looks like their most vocal community manager left end of october, so...
And if everything goes to hell, that means my money is gone, I'm fully aware of it. I have little faith in the possibility of having it back by filing a complaint at this state, anyway.
TL;DR, the project despite raising $1.1 million net of Kickstarter fees is $750k in the hole due to a series of unfortunate events, project creep and bad decisions.
The initial funds raised for the Kickstarter were collected at the end of 2015.
● Funds Raised: $1,277,204 (approximately $13,318 of pledges bounced)
● Total Fees: -$103,386 (These include Kickstarter and payment processing fees.)
● Annual Overhead: -$343,559 (This includes payroll, facilities leasing, and additional overhead.)...
With the Kickstarter funds expended it was upon us to be able to self fund the necessary cash needed to
complete the project. The remaining estimates for completion of the project are shown below.
● Manufacturing: $490,592.00
● Shipping: $238,000.00
● Remaining Development: $17,400
...
To date we have still not been able to secure funding for the approximately $750,000 needed to complete the
project. However, we continue to work diligently in an attempt to find the funds.
A backer pointed out that SDE:L is licensed from Soda Pop Miniatures to Ninja Division, which seem to share the same principal officers, which would explain why project expenses are so high - they took money off the table for themselves almost immediately in a way that is legal but not acceptable to some backers. The fact that they are trying to mention "licenses" in such an undetailed aside isn't exactly a model of transparency.
Marketing also seems strange to do for three years for a product that does not exist, and probably never will at this point.
I do not believe the annual overhead of $343k being attributed a project is reasonable, when Ninja Division does more than SDE:L. You don't need to rent a warehouse for product that doesn't exist. So in essence this project was used to cover failures from other projects.
At this stage their future plans are:
Remaining Options
Despite the above issues, we continue to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to fulfill our obligation.
Currently, we have a few options we are pursuing:
● We are in discussion with multiple companies about an acquisition of our studio. This includes
assistance in fulfilling our obligations.
● We are currently working with our manufacturing partner to produce Super Dungeon Arcade on credit.
While this is single product from the Kickstarter, it is considered a core product that has the potential to
jump start sales of our other existing products in the marketplace.
● Should one of our acquisition options fail to come through, or the Super Dungeon Arcade printing
proves a success, our manufacturer has expressed interest in working further with us on additional
products from the Kickstarter to slowly roll out production and meet our obligations.
In essence, they need a white knight with $750,000, with no estimated time line for delivery. In my opinion, they are still not being transparent about how the money was spent.
I bet it's just a matter of time the news get a snowball effect and get a reaction at the top of SPM in the end...word is already spreading on other Kickstarters made by SPM, indeed.
So there solution is to sell the company along with their obligations or get stuff produced for free? I didn't realize that the old cartoon Wimpy's catch phrase was still a viable business strategy in 2018.
Spoiler:
I didn't catch the part that they were basically paying themselves hefty licensing fees for largely the same people in the same location to work on the project. I guess that's a pretty good gig along with having the kickstarter funds pay for some (or all?) of their operating expenses for years while not actually completing the products they were actually pledged for.
Sarouan wrote: Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Hold on. The KS pitch was that they would tweak the FK rules. Small fixes, that should have been previewed during the KS. Instead, no Beta before KS close and radio silence for months. Fed up backers started demanding that SPM show what they were doing for the rules, because tweaks should have been easy to get out the door. Eventually, SPM released a clean sheet ruleset that had NOTHING do do with the FK version.
If the Backers hadn't been vocal about SPM's failure to share rules, there wouldn't have been any Beta rules at all.
Sarouan wrote: Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Hold on. The KS pitch was that they would tweak the FK rules. Small fixes, that should have been previewed during the KS. Instead, no Beta before KS close and radio silence for months. Fed up backers started demanding that SPM show what they were doing for the rules, because tweaks should have been easy to get out the door. Eventually, SPM released a clean sheet ruleset that had NOTHING do do with the FK version.
If the Backers hadn't been vocal about SPM's failure to share rules, there wouldn't have been any Beta rules at all.
I have never seen evidence of 'wide scale demand from fans for total rewrite'. I have also never seen evidence of the arbitrary change from 'organized missions for explore' to 'a full on RPG lite system with nothing to do with SDE Explore' being backer demanded. Those are both either fake news, or grossly exaggerated.
I *DO* remember breakdowns explaining how Arcadia Quest beating them to market forced them to 'rush' TFK which made the 1.5 rules bad and them blaming CMoN for their issues. I also remember them explicitly saying that the re-write was chosen because it had no expected impact on the delays of the project. Also, not a word is mentioned that backers demanded this change in the slightest.
Today is a big, long designer diary update. Grab a snack and a soda, it's going to take a bit.
Go read this thread in the backers' forum. It's a really good thread. Seriously, go read it before reading the rest of this post, because it is all connected.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
All done? Good. Let's chat about some things.
I had made most of my planned changes to the beta rules last weekend. Then I read the above post. It has given me a lot to think about over the week. A LOT to think about.
In short, it gave voice to a concern that has been itching at the back of my mind for awhile now which I could not quite place.
When we first created Super Dungeon Explore we had a singular vision. All three creators were (and still are) miniature gamers. We wanted a tactical miniature board game. However, we're also RPG and lore junkies, so we created a giant world for the game too. We gave voice to that world in little snippets in card text, and people latched onto it.
It was not long before we saw people asking for and developing their own stories, scenarios, and RPG-lite elements. We loved it. It tickled our own RPG tendencies and desires. While we loved that the game was essentially a battle game Heroes vs Consul, we intimately understood how people wanted the game to have even more. Heck, we wanted more too, we have so many cool ideas to share! We also saw the rise of people disliking "competitive" play and only wanting a cooperative experience, with no one playing the Consul. Everybody wants to be a winner! That's cool, we could get behind that. Then we saw calls for solo play. Heck ya, we wanted to play a game when we were bored and didn't have friends over. We could do that.
Fast forward to Forgotten King. We were about to begin our foray into solo publishing, and had just found out that there was a very similar product being created. This required us, as a new company, to have to deal with direct competition in the chibi-style dungeon crawl market for the first time, and straight out of the gate. We had been planning 2nd Edition, but our timetables suddenly changed drastically. We felt we needed to strike while the iron was hot! We saw all this enthusiasm for Super Dungeon, all these exciting things that people wanted to be able to do with the game—things we wanted to be able to do too. So we did them all, thus blurring what we first intended Super Dungeon to be.
Super Dungeon Explore's basic structure groaned under the weight of so many new additions all at once. Don't get me wrong, Forgotten King is friggin’ awesome, and there are many incredible play experiences contained within. But it requires a judicious hand, and some tailoring to your group. We knew this. It's why we have difficulty settings in the back of the book. We also don't think it is a bad thing. As miniature gamers, we always come up with cool scenarios to play for our games. As roleplayers, we love tweaking things for story and fun. However, it did change the core experience of Super Dungeon Explore. It went from a battle board game to dungeon board game toolkit—here are the base rules to play, now do what you want! Some people love it. Some people dislike it. For people who live and breathe based on BGG ratings it kept pretty much the same rating, actually bouncing up .5 points. But one thing is undeniable, Super Dungeon Explore changed its identity between First Edition and Forgotten King.
That brings us to Super Dungeon Explore: 2nd Edition, and back to my original point from the beginning. Something has been sitting wrong with me. I couldn't place it though until I saw the linked post. Bam! There it is.
Right now, we’re building 2nd Edition off of Forgotten King. That means we're using the "whole kitchen sink." But we don’t have to. Not anymore. Now we have Super Dungeon: Legends. Legends is our RPG-lite expansion built upon Explore’s mechanics. Super Dungeon: Explore can go back to being fast and furious dungeon combat. Super Dungeon: Arcade is our cooperative and solo-play expansion. The unlocked pets will get rules in the form of Super Dungeon: Pet Parade. Pet Parade will be a fuller and more robust ruleset introducing pets into the game. These core systems will join the upcoming, Super Dungeon PVP Arena as the foundation of the Super Dungeon: 2nd Edition experience. Just to recap:
SUPER DUNGEON: 2ND EDITION
Super Dungeon: Explore. Core game rulebook and game components. Introduces the Super Dungeon: 2nd Edition rules. Focuses on Consul vs Hero dungeon combat, loot, treasure and battle.
Super Dungeon: Arcade. Rulebook, requires Forgotten King or Super Dungeon: Explore components. Introduces “Hero only” cooperative play and solo play.
Super Dungeon: Legends. Rulebook and Legends specific components, requires Forgotten King or Super Dungeon: Explore components. Introduces campaign play and roleplaying elements, including narrative games and custom dungeon creation.
Super Dungeon: Pet Parade. Rules and models, requires Forgotten King or Super Dungeon: Explore components. Introduces pets and animal companions.
Super Dungeon: PVP Arena. Stand alone game, requires models. 2-player, head-to-head tactical battle game set in the Super Dungeon universe. (Note: PVP Arena is not part of this Kickstarter, and is only included in this list for completeness.)
Each ruleset represents unique gameplay options. They will all build on the core Super Dungeon Explore experience.
IMPORTANT ITEMS
New cards or models are NOT required for veterans. Your current collection of cards and models built upon Forgotten King are all used.
Each pledge will receive all of the content it is due.
Delivery time is NOT affected. We are still within our window for writing and delivering final text for production. If this changes you will, of course, be notified.
The Dark Consul pledge will now include a print copy of the 2nd Edition rulebook. Since core components such as tokens and boards are not changing, these rules are all you need to play in the 2nd Edition environment with your current Forgotten King components.
All pledges of Explorer and above will include a print copy of the Pet Parade rules.
PLAYTESTING
Okay, so where does that put us for playtesting? Well, a lot of the changes I made based on feedback before this week are being scrapped. I will be taking the current 2nd Edition rules and moving many of the rpg-lite elements into Legends, where they belong. I will then turn to reprocessing the huge amount of feedback I’ve received on 2nd Edition with a new eye. The goal is to take the best of Forgotten King and the best of Super Dungeon Explore: First Edition and merge them into a new almighty, all powerful, true-to-identity Super Dungeon Explore. Mwhahahahaha! I’m going to burn midnight oil to get these turned around ASAP.
UPDATE SCHEDULE
Weekly updates will continue. However, I’m going to start sending them on days when new material is ready for playtesting, instead of a fixed day. We will return to fixed day updates when the rough edges are smoothed out.
I will be posting this update in the backer forums. I will keep my eye on comments here, but I will do most my discussion there, since it is far easier to keep up with and track.
Until next time—
SPARKLEBURST!
Remember... *THEY* decided to totally restructure the product for reasons of their own making. It wasn't until the changes were 'BAD' because Deke isn't good at writing rules that they needed to scrap everything, do a total re-write and hire Justin. They had decided before feedback was gathered about the failed BETA to restructure and the issues with TFK. Backers explicitly said 'We don't want to you to change legends to a totally different product" and there was never an option presented to "print as-is or total re-write". That was made as a business decision and what they felt was 'good fro the brand' not 'what was good for backers and completing the project.'
As promised, today we have a development/production update for you.
Let’s start right off with the bad news, and then go through the rest.
Delivery will be delayed until Spring 2017.
I know, it sucks. Just typing it makes me frustrated too.
Now the big question: Why is it going to be late?
There are a few reasons:
1. The 2nd Edition Rules didn’t survive first contact. Several months ago, I posted all about this in an update. This caused a big restructure in how we addressed 2nd Edition, Legends, etc. This had a ripple effect which caused several plans we had to require adjustment. As we continue to develop 2nd Edition, we need to always remain conscious of how it affects everything else that was previously written prior to the launch of the Kickstarter, and prior to the decision to adjust 2nd Edition.
2. We overestimated writing development output against other duties. Just to be clear, I am the lead writer for Super Dungeon. I do NOT do primary development work on any other project. So other projects such as Rail Raiders Infinite, Way of the Fighter, and Relic Knights: 2nd Edition do not impact Super Dungeon’s dev time. Unfortunately, we have not hit the writing deadlines we needed to in order to ensure our planned December delivery.
3. We underestimated the amount of written product which we put into the Kickstarter. When we first hit Kickstarter the 2nd Edition rules were (we thought) 90% done. The Legends rules were about 70% done. The only thing that had not begun were the expanded adventures. As you know, we have a deep love for Super Dungeon and love to give you more, More, MORE! The free daily digital adventures, plus the expanding content from traditional stretch goals, plus our own desire to provide as much stuff as possible worked against us. While we did not break our cardinal rule of not adding extra content beyond what was planned, (Wait, we did do Mother Noctua and she wasn’t planned. Oops!) we did plan a lot of stuff and underestimated the time it would take to develop it to the standards which we desire.
Why are we telling you now?
We knew this was a big project, we gave ourselves a year to deliver. Art and sculpting has all largely kept on schedule. The hope was that writing could catch up. When we told you we were going back to the drawing board for 2nd, the timeline was such that, while tight, it was still possible to get it all done.
We’re now at the point where manufacturing has told us it is no longer possible. As per our full transparency policy, I’m telling you immediately. We also still have five months before the final delivery month ends. So we’re providing a good deal of advance notice.
What are we doing to make sure the delivery does not slip any further?
The biggest, and admittedly hardest, decision to make was for me to acknowledge and accept that Ninja Division and Soda Pop have grown too large for me to be able to maintain my Super Dungeon duties plus my other duties, and provide them with the love and attention they deserve. Blerg.
With that said, I’m happy to announce that Ninja Division has just finished hiring a new experienced rules designer, who will join us full-time and assist me in getting all rules development polished and finished in a timely manner.
The other elements of the Kickstarter are all still on track. Sculpting is only a couple models away from being complete, and we just received our first test samples from the molds which have been completed. (We'll share pics after Gencon! They just arrived today.)
The only art that is delayed is that which needs further writing for guidance. Once writing starts catching up, our crack team of artists will begin cranking out the last bits of art needed.
Why aren’t we posting more in the backer forums?
We like discussing theory as much the next person, but the feedback from the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of gameplay reports we’ve received are easily the most helpful. We are reading the forums, and the discussions which occur, but time we spend getting locked into debate is time we are not spending working, and time is at a premium.
Please use the game play report form. It is much easier for us to understand your viewpoint when we can read about the game and see decisions that led to your feedback.
When do you get Backer Beta 1.4?
Next month. Our goal is for Backer Beta 1.4 to hopefully be the last one (maybe 1.5), but we want our new designer to have input into the final versions, since it will become his and my toolbox for designing future expansions.
What’s next?
Well, for me: Gencon. Tomorrow we load our trucks and then drive out Saturday for our trek across the country. We will have an update next week, while at Gencon, but it will be small and from my phone.
After that, it’s back to work. As I explained above, models, art, etc are all done or in very advanced states. Weekly updates will continue. As always, we will keep you informed every step of the way, and continue to inform you of everything going on—good and bad.
Also, don't forget that once the print files are done, we will begin releasing your downloadable copies. So even with the delay on delivery, you will get to start your adventures, even as printing begins. The whole world of Crystalia is about to open up, providing you with a lifetime of new options, tools, adventures, campaigns, stories to tell, and experiences to share. We know waiting is hard, but we are devoted to making Super Dungeon worth the wait!
Until next week—
SPARKLEBURST!
Blaming the backers for the changes and delays isn't how it went down. The changes and delays were well set in stone before backers had a chance to provide feeback, and that feedback was far from unanimous or approving of the changes. By that point Deke was doing only Legends, which we all knew was vaporware, and should have had no impact on 2.0 Explore and 2.0 Arcade.
Sarouan wrote: Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Hold on. The KS pitch was that they would tweak the FK rules.
It simply doesn't add up.
Not sure why you quoted me - you should have responded to Sarouan.
Oh, I'm talking about what was posted on the forums at that time. There were a few vocal backers there determined to see their changes written in the rules, and doing anything to support their claims.
SPM listened and answered to that.
So, yeah, I think it played a part in all of this sad story. But to be honest, there's no point in trying to blame someone in particular...the result is there, and it won't be changed now.
People were pretty unhappy with Forgotten King. Mostly it centered around the game being too long and trivially easy when played in a boring, grindy way. Personally, I've never really considered something that triples the length of a game to remove the challenge an exploit, but a lot of people seemed very upset that the "optimal" way of winning wasn't any fun. There was a pretty hefty demand to fix it.
Now, did they fail to fix it within the constraints of the project to a ruinous level? Absolutely. Was Legends a bunch of cool promises on paper that lacked a proper implementation strategy to make actual working system. You bet. Did SPM screw over everyone who just wanted all the cool models that were the main physical product of this release worth investing in? Yes, yes they did.
But people WERE demanding a rewrite to Forgotten King. I don't think its fair to say otherwise. Whether or not it was a legitimate concern or a vocal minority I can't say, but as someone who skipped the FK KS and was picking the stuff up at retail based on reviews, I can say with a good deal of certainty that it was hard to find any discussions on the game without them getting sidetracked into how to fix the broken grind system.
NAVARRO wrote: Almost half a million for project expenses, licenses???? Isnt SDE like original IP or something?
And Manufacturing: $490,592.00 Shipping: $238,000.00 ???
I dont get all those inflated numbers.
And let’s not forget they took more funds through the PM including shipping from all backers and haven’t accounted for those either those figures are omitted from the report to the AG and it’s rather convenient that they recently transferred their store from SPM to ND and disabled access to all the SPM account details including backers PMs.
I suspect they are holding the various IPs seperate to ND or SPM possibly in a holding company or in the hands of the owners and are charging SPM licensing fees to use that IP in effect paying themselves to use their own IP and have extract more funds that way. EDIT ah it’s mentioned above SPM licensed the IP to ND not in itself illegal but still shady.
It makes business sense for them to insulate the various IPs using different companies and names when they know they've screwed up royally. Prodos/Archon did it, ND/SPM did it with their various KS accounts, and Palladium attempted it with their Rifts board game.
LunarSol wrote: People were pretty unhappy with Forgotten King. Mostly it centered around the game being too long and trivially easy when played in a boring, grindy way. Personally, I've never really considered something that triples the length of a game to remove the challenge an exploit, but a lot of people seemed very upset that the "optimal" way of winning wasn't any fun. There was a pretty hefty demand to fix it.
Now, did they fail to fix it within the constraints of the project to a ruinous level? Absolutely. Was Legends a bunch of cool promises on paper that lacked a proper implementation strategy to make actual working system. You bet. Did SPM screw over everyone who just wanted all the cool models that were the main physical product of this release worth investing in? Yes, yes they did.
But people WERE demanding a rewrite to Forgotten King. I don't think its fair to say otherwise. Whether or not it was a legitimate concern or a vocal minority I can't say, but as someone who skipped the FK KS and was picking the stuff up at retail based on reviews, I can say with a good deal of certainty that it was hard to find any discussions on the game without them getting sidetracked into how to fix the broken grind system.
The FK "Classic" ruleset was badly-done: slow and grindy, and unnecessarily overcomplicated. It's perhaps one of the best examples of "one small step forward, two giant steps back" in rules work. SPM recognized this, which is why they promised to "fix" it as part of the KS.
Players wanted a streamlined ruleset, because the FK ruleset was bad.
The call for a rewrite didn't occur until after until SPM released an all-new, untested ruleset that was even worse than the FK ruleset. UliThe Classic rules could have been fixed, but instead, SPM went in an all-new direction that kind of combined many of the worst features of Original (e.g. mandatory physical tracker) and FK "Classic", resulting in a Frankenstein ruleset that "works" but is so overt and clumsy.
Had SPM simply backtracked to FK Classic or Original as the starting point, and asked for input on the top 3-5 things to change/remove, the game would have been fine. It could have been playtested and made simpler, better.
NAVARRO wrote: Almost half a million for project expenses, licenses???? Isnt SDE like original IP or something?
And Manufacturing: $490,592.00 Shipping: $238,000.00 ???
I dont get all those inflated numbers.
And let’s not forget they took more funds through the PM including shipping from all backers and haven’t accounted for those either those figures are omitted from the report to the AG and it’s rather convenient that they recently transferred their store from SPM to ND and disabled access to all the SPM account details including backers PMs.
I suspect they are holding the various IPs seperate to ND or SPM possibly in a holding company or in the hands of the owners and are charging SPM licensing fees to use that IP in effect paying themselves to use their own IP and have extract more funds that way. EDIT ah it’s mentioned above SPM licensed the IP to ND not in itself illegal but still shady.
Shady indeed and bad track record. They can play that game for sure but anyone with some business sense will not get involved with them unless there is some serious colateral… at this point seems its the core that is rotten and that is harder to fix than just say a bad product. Still is shocking how a 1.2 million project screwed SO much to get to this point… well someone is well off because the money just doesnt vanish.
ND hasn't paid Archon for any of the Starfinder, Relic Knights 2 or Humble Bundle. So assume that money is also 'gone on overhead expenses' and explanation why the resin releases have stopped.
It won't be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation. However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle - Paizo is still not paid). This should not, however, affect what we are doing, as external contracts are about 15% of total Archons turnover. The worst-case scenario is that Archon will have to cover all the manufacturing losses, and this could mean that some of our FUTURE internal projects could be delayed, but that's nothing major. Anyway, please wait for an official statement. We are all hoping that ND will find some solution. Thanks.
So they have no money for SDE:L and need credit.
They have no money for any of their RESIN, and need SDE:L to generate money to pay for the resin they already have made because that is REAL debt to REAL companies.
They then need the money from the Resin they sell to generate money for SDE:L.
And they knew they were broke in 2016. but ran 4 more KS after that which they knew they couldn't pay for because that money was being sent to 'keeping the lights on'.
The writing was on the wall over 2 years ago, which is why I avoided any of their projects before or since.
After Relic Knights was a dud with some of the worst produced models I have seen to date, I boggle at how anyone would trust them with anything after that.
Then, SDE runs into problems, they dump the Robotech fiasco, and run a bunch more campaigns that are problematic at best.
If folks just paid more attention and we're more careful with their money, these types of people and companies wouldn't be able to run off with millions of dollars for years full of empty promises.
How they are claiming money was spent does not line up with what they made. They were and still are, crooks.
If anyone wonders how their funds were misappropriated, look a few pages back at SPM/ND GenCon booth....
Ghool wrote: If folks just paid more attention and we're more careful with their money, these types of people and companies wouldn't be able to run off with millions of dollars for years full of empty promises.
It's not that people don't pay attention but that they actively seek to silence the warnings as long as they're not the ones currently being ripped off. Folks post their ongoing negative consumer experiences with the likes of Soda Ninja Pop Division, Prodos Archon, and Palladium Rogue Studios and people tell them to STFU and GTFO. As long as they're potentially getting minis they want at a discount, they don't care. You see it all the time in kickstarter comment sections especially but even here on dakka where a company like Prodos can choose NOT to ship rewards from a 5+ year kickstarter to backers but people will post that they don't care because they placed an order two weeks ago and got their shipment. There is very little consumer advocacy and fellowship in the gaming customer base unfortunately and that allows bad apples to prosper or at least limp along.
ND hasn't paid Archon for any of the Starfinder, Relic Knights 2 or Humble Bundle. So assume that money is also 'gone on overhead expenses' and explanation why the resin releases have stopped.
It won't be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation. However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle - Paizo is still not paid).
That would put a dent in 50% of their future business plans/solutions to the current issues since the only ideas they had were to sell the company (and the debts) or get stuff produced for free. I'm surprised that Prodos let them do it on credit given how shady Prodos/Archon are themselves.
Ghool wrote: If folks just paid more attention and we're more careful with their money, these types of people and companies wouldn't be able to run off with millions of dollars for years full of empty promises.
It's not that people don't pay attention but that they actively seek to silence the warnings as long as they're not the ones currently being ripped off. Folks post their ongoing negative consumer experiences with the likes of Soda Ninja Pop Division, Prodos Archon, and Palladium Rogue Studios and people tell them to STFU and GTFO. As long as they're potentially getting minis they want at a discount, they don't care. You see it all the time in kickstarter comment sections especially but even here on dakka where a company like Prodos can choose NOT to ship rewards from a 5+ year kickstarter to backers but people will post that they don't care because they placed an order two weeks ago and got their shipment. There is very little consumer advocacy and fellowship in the gaming customer base unfortunately and that allows bad apples to prosper or at least limp along.
They are doing this even now. There are SPM/ND supporters who are wanting to give more money and run GOFUNDME and claim anyone warning others of bad business are 'stealing from them' because they want new customers to throw money down the well to fund their product and let the new money get screwed.
A real quote from someone blaming backers and bad consumer reviews and saying people should support ND future projects so he can 'get his':
They are on purpose and knowingly trying to stop ANY chance that SD will carry on or even refund backers money. So on a personal level, they are trying to steal £300 from me and burn it. On a non-personal level which includes me, they are trying to steal all the money the backers paid and burn it. They are making sure there are NO winners, only losers.. and think they win because they can taste the blood on their lips..
That is the attitude you are talking about. I want to protect other people in the community from getting tricked or losing their money. I would rather this PONZI end now, with me and my mistake opposed to get my rewards at the expense of starfinder people or IDW new customers getting screwed later. That is why I love Dakka. They never forget and keep companies history out for all to see.
Just a note : no one loves Captain Hindsight. So better leave the "you just had to know" kind of post behind, it brings nothing but free gloating.
Besides, SPM has also nothing to do in the Robotech Kickstarter. Would be good if people stop blaming unrelated things to, well, unrelated events.
As for the feeling...well, you can't deny there was a real negativity surrounding the SDE Kickstarter for quite a very long time and it seems to have played a part as well in SPM's demise, if you believe what is written in SPM's answer to the AG on that document. So it can be understood that way. Since you are one of those supporting that negativity for a while, Nkelsch, I can see why you feel you have to justify yourself. That doesn't mean the reasons why you say you did it are exactly how the others see it in the end...and I must admit I wasn't seeing you as a defender of consumers, given the way you posted at that time, but rather someone dedicated to sink the whole ship for your own justice, no matter how many people are still on board.
It's really a matter of points of view, but now ? I feel like it's completely pointless. I feel like I'm living the whole Spartan Games' demise again...with no winner in the end.
Ghool wrote: After Relic Knights was a dud with some of the worst produced models I have seen to date, I boggle at how anyone would trust them with anything after that.
Relic Knights was produced by CMoN, so one could give SPM the benefit of the doubt at the time.
SPM's Forgotten King delivered more-or-less like a "regular" KS, so no particular red flags there.
Legends was supposed to be SPM turning the crank again, so things should have been similar to FK.
It wasn't until months after Legends closed that we found out that SPM hadn't done jack gak on the rules cleanup that they had promised, and were holding up EVERYTHING becase of it. Even then, there wasn't any excuse to not produce Wave 1 or something within the first year. That's BS
Ghool wrote: After Relic Knights was a dud with some of the worst produced models I have seen to date, I boggle at how anyone would trust them with anything after that.
Relic Knights was produced by CMoN, so one could give SPM the benefit of the doubt at the time.
SPM's Forgotten King delivered more-or-less like a "regular" KS, so no particular red flags there.
Legends was supposed to be SPM turning the crank again, so things should have been similar to FK.
It wasn't until months after Legends closed that we found out that SPM hadn't done jack gak on the rules cleanup that they had promised, and were holding up EVERYTHING becase of it. Even then, there wasn't any excuse to not produce Wave 1 or something within the first year. That's BS
I think you mean that CMON distributed Relic Knights not produced.
There's a big difference.
No, I believe that CMoN did the actual production, and SPM was only responsible for design and development of RK. It was the same as material that CMoN used for Sedition Wars
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I believe that CMoN did the actual production, and SPM was only responsible for design and development of RK. It was the same as material that CMoN used for Sedition Wars
For RK, the rumor I heard was that SPM/ND were given alot of independence and didn't get their work completed/submitted in time to the factory in China and subsequently lost their production slot instantly putting them at the back of the line and many months behind. As always with unsubstantiated rumors, apply salt as needed.
Besides, SPM has also nothing to do in the Robotech Kickstarter. Would be good if people stop blaming unrelated things to, well, unrelated events.
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
I would like to see the source of that. There was an update on that old Kickstarter talking specifically about this, or are those theories coming from elsewhere ?
I'm not sur ND was made just for the Robotech KSer but there's old emails pre-launch from Kevin talking about how he was teaming up with them as Palladium had no experience working with China and they were handling all the modeling and production of the figures and cardboard while Palladium was Rules, getting approvals from HG and delivery. There are also updates where Kevin talks about the reason the minis are all multipart and hard to assemble is ND convinced him that's they way they should be done. ND and Palladium a parted ways shortly after wave 1 delivered. Probably due to all the manufacturing and sculpting issues as as I believe lots of things had to be resculpted after the had been approved to be multipart kits and that sucked up a lot of money. Then everyone hated them and the product didn't sell much partly as it was a huge pain to put together and play.
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
I would like to see the source of that. There was an update on that old Kickstarter talking specifically about this, or are those theories coming from elsewhere ?
I give Relic Knights a bit of a pass. It was back when Kickstarter was fairly new and one of the first to explode like that and before companies really understood the scope creep they were creating and before the drawbacks of restic were really understood.
LunarSol wrote: I give Relic Knights a bit of a pass. It was back when Kickstarter was fairly new and one of the first to explode like that and before companies really understood the scope creep they were creating and before the drawbacks of restic were really understood.
If one didn't understand that using board game figure plastic for a miniature game was not a good idea, I don't know what to say. It was clear out of the gate that PVC was a subpar material to use for any miniature game. It was done because it was cheap, and that's an easier sell than expensive resin.
John Cadice responded in SPM-friendly Chibi Gamers:
John Starck Cadice wrote: Plans are in motion, and have been worked on for a very long time to secure our manufacturing. Contextually, it is only a portion of the story, we will be sharing more to the community soon, with GOOD news, not all this flame and damnation. We are still moving forward, halts were unavoidable, but temporary.
The AG response was truthful and necessary, and we remain committed to deliver your pledges. A great deal of information is not visible as to our current activities, when it is secure, we will tell you. No more rampant speculation and basing our communications off of the promises of others. Only what we hold in our hands.
LunarSol wrote: I give Relic Knights a bit of a pass. It was back when Kickstarter was fairly new and one of the first to explode like that and before companies really understood the scope creep they were creating and before the drawbacks of restic were really understood.
If one didn't understand that using board game figure plastic for a miniature game was not a good idea, I don't know what to say. It was clear out of the gate that PVC was a subpar material to use for any miniature game. It was done because it was cheap, and that's an easier sell than expensive resin.
Lots of people invested a lot of work into the idea. SodaPop was hardly alone in this mistake.
The larger PVC figures were nowhere near as bad as the smaller ones. I could figure out what to paint on the Noh. Not so much on a lot of the other factions.
I still find it hard to believe that Sodapop pushed for those multipart plastic kits, when they themselves had no experience with it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Thanks, though if it wasn't me, it'd be someone else (nkelsh, most likely).
Your post neatly sums up the situation. Let us know if John Candice follows up on his initial response with a concrete plan. I wonder if current customers are sharing this info with the upcoming partners for the just announced projects or if they are apparently in the dark as Paizo chose to be.
If SPM had real news to share, they could have done so at any time in the past several months since their last Update in SDE:Legends, but now that it's come out that they misspent roughly $1M on SDE:L and can't pay Prodos/Archon for the low-quality resins they've been shipping, John Cadice finally responds. Funny how that works.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: The larger PVC figures were nowhere near as bad as the smaller ones. I could figure out what to paint on the Noh. Not so much on a lot of the other factions.
I still find it hard to believe that Sodapop pushed for those multipart plastic kits, when they themselves had no experience with it.
I think the biggest problem with the first Relic Knights KS figures was that they wanted to translate the already metal miniatures into PVC without any re-design of the figures. There was shrinkage in the translation from metal to plastic. Bad shrinkage.
The newer figures, sculpted with the plastic in mind did not have as much problems. But all in all I was really dissapointed with the Relic Knights KS (my second big dissapointment of kickstarter...).
The Forgotten King KS, on the other hand, was fine. No warning flags whatsoever for me. I was confident moving from that into SDE:Legends.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I believe that CMoN did the actual production, and SPM was only responsible for design and development of RK. It was the same as material that CMoN used for Sedition Wars
For RK, the rumor I heard was that SPM/ND were given alot of independence and didn't get their work completed/submitted in time to the factory in China and subsequently lost their production slot instantly putting them at the back of the line and many months behind. As always with unsubstantiated rumors, apply salt as needed.
I doubt it. If that's the case, someone would have take 5m in the last three months to post an update saying what you just said. You know, because companies who do KS should understand basic courtesy and communication with the people giving them money.
The Forgotten King KS, on the other hand, was fine. No warning flags whatsoever for me. I was confident moving from that into SDE:Legends.
Components were fine, on the other side, gameplay was seriously lacking. Enough to convince me to never invest in any of their products...
That was my big issue with Forgotten King, and the reason I sold my copy. If anything the gameplay was worse than in the original SDE game, despite the claims to have fixed the problems.
The original had too much complexity, and took too long, for the amount of fun and strategy involved. So they, uh, added more complexity without increasing the amount of fun or strategy... Meh.
John Candice posted a few more times in the facebook thread linked above stating that the proof will be in the pudding and he's happy with the quality of the Starfinder miniatures delivered. Someone else posted a perfect response IMO but the emphasis is mine.
Julius Alexander John Starck CadiceI believe what Rob is saying is that the communication of things such as the AG report should have come from you and it should have come to the backers on the official channels a year ago. He is not wrong, what your company did has moral questions that I think do not reflect well. For example many starfinder backers feel you misled them on the strength of your company to get their backing for that kickstarter. The AG report seems to support this view. You offered late pledges for SDL even up till just months ago, you may even still be offering them if people email your company. This for a project that is out of money. The legality of doing so is questionable to say the least. You said you would no longer accept refund requests for a project that appears to have a contractual obligation to continue to allow (see KS ToS). That is not a complete list. I believe what Rob is saying is you have an obligation (also see ks ToS) to communicate honestly and effectively with backers. Doing so on facebook does not count, doing so only when you are working on deals, new KS, also does not count.
The last time you communicated with us was when you wanted us not to sink your Starfinder KS. Honestly this seems to be what you are doing again, the AG report comes out and you are working on deals for acquisition or credit and with IDW, no doubt consumer rage is not helping, but your history is only speaking when it benefits you and only so much as to silence us and furthermore the communication you give us is generally inaccurate.The two times you said you were waiting for proofs we now know was not true, as you had not the money to order production to begin with. How can you expect us to believe you after all of this?
That's the key for me (as someone with no money on the hook admitedly as I didn't luckily back the Starfinder KS). ND/SPM communicate only when it suits them and only to put out fires of their own making that may affect their ability to repeat the cycle of promise/crowdfund/delay that pays for their ongoing existence despite delivering few products promised in return.
Im super bummed. I went all-in on the Legends KS and this is...what? Proof that it will never get delivered and we're all screwed out of $250+ dollars?
And to secure a contract to produce Starfinder minis after knowing this last project was failing? That has to be criminal.
warboss wrote: John Candice posted a few more times in the facebook thread linked above stating that the proof will be in the pudding and he's happy with the quality of the Starfinder miniatures delivered. Someone else posted a perfect response IMO but the emphasis is mine.
Julius Alexander John Starck CadiceI believe what Rob is saying is that the communication of things such as the AG report should have come from you and it should have come to the backers on the official channels a year ago. He is not wrong, what your company did has moral questions that I think do not reflect well. For example many starfinder backers feel you misled them on the strength of your company to get their backing for that kickstarter. The AG report seems to support this view. You offered late pledges for SDL even up till just months ago, you may even still be offering them if people email your company. This for a project that is out of money. The legality of doing so is questionable to say the least. You said you would no longer accept refund requests for a project that appears to have a contractual obligation to continue to allow (see KS ToS). That is not a complete list. I believe what Rob is saying is you have an obligation (also see ks ToS) to communicate honestly and effectively with backers. Doing so on facebook does not count, doing so only when you are working on deals, new KS, also does not count.
The last time you communicated with us was when you wanted us not to sink your Starfinder KS. Honestly this seems to be what you are doing again, the AG report comes out and you are working on deals for acquisition or credit and with IDW, no doubt consumer rage is not helping, but your history is only speaking when it benefits you and only so much as to silence us and furthermore the communication you give us is generally inaccurate.The two times you said you were waiting for proofs we now know was not true, as you had not the money to order production to begin with. How can you expect us to believe you after all of this?
That's the key for me (as someone with no money on the hook admitedly as I didn't luckily back the Starfinder KS). ND/SPM communicate only when it suits them and only to put out fires of their own making that may affect their ability to repeat the cycle of promise/crowdfund/delay that pays for their ongoing existence despite delivering few products promised in return.
Nail. Head. Hit.
They made a lot of promises when they show up hat in hand, but once they get the money past the chargeback period, silence. Pathetic.
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
I would like to see the source of that. There was an update on that old Kickstarter talking specifically about this, or are those theories coming from elsewhere ?
Which part would you like to see the source of?
Which part ? Well...about everything you claim happened...or do you mean it's actually in separate, differents parts scattered around ?
Here are the missing interventions of John Candice :
Spoiler:
John Starck Cadice Eric Lan The product we initially got was low quality and we returned it to have it remade - we announced it at the time - the overarching promises from our manufacturer did not meet spec- delaying our delivery and costing money. The product since then meets a very good standard, anything that people objected to, we have replaced
John Starck Cadice Derek Allgire no, that is accurate, we did not disclose our external search for financing and investment. but I would be HUGELY irresponsible to inflate or state something that is not secure as of yet - but I am confident. Ill let the proof be in the message
John Starck Cadice Guys
I'm trying to engage here with "initial" off the cuff and raw conversation. We are heads down working on a solution that is near fruition. If our credibility is shot to you, disregard. But it does not serve me to take slings and arrows for fun - I am hopeful and diligently working to fulfill this projects and others across many fronts. Official "announcements" and other information will be pushed to the KS - and to the broader backing groups.
John Starck Cadice Kreoss Prime I know
The "running silent" is more a condition of having to wipe out our marketing team, and getting stretched thin on the primary objective - which is to sort out our solution to getting this all made and the continuation of business functions as necessary.
Also, here are some interesting interventions of our friend JohnHwang and Tom Anders, the guy from Impact Miniatures :
Spoiler:
John Hwang Again, if you have time to respond on FB, you have time to properly inform ALL of your KS backers with actual, official Updates. Do that. That's what you promised when you took their money.
Tom Anders
John Hwang Okay going to start by saying ... as a CPA and 41 time KS project creator ... I'm not defending what was done by JSC and ND/SPM. I honestly believe if they were run the way I run my projects ND/SPM would not be at this point (but it is easy to be a backseat driver when you have limited information). However ... with that said ... JSC has stated he is a few days away from having the signatures on the documents that would allow him to post the actual official update you are requesting. At this point all he can post in an update would be "still working stay tuned" which at this point given the massive silence across all the projects would probably be worse than more silence. On Facebook ... he can say that without the immediate uproar. In a way JSC believe he has a helicopter coming with a massive load of water that will extinguish the large fire very soon ... so he's running around the edge of the fire trying to keep it from getting larger. As a strategy ... its an interesting one ... but I can understand what he is trying to do. I'm not sure how well it is working but I do get what he is doing right now.
I understand John Hwang that you disagree with that method but the point JSC is trying to make (mileage may vary) is that no official announcement can be made just yet but he believes it is coming very soon.
John Hwang Tom Anders If that is true, great! I look forward to the Update.
I'm simply noting that he hasn't said anything new, and that this isn't really the best forum for communicating material news to backers.
Tom Anders
John Hwang I 100% agree with everything you said. I think its that JSC doesn't have anything material he can say yet. He believes that ink will be drying very soon on the dotted line and then he will have the big water dump on the fire for everyone.
I can also acknowledge that a lot of words of almost there ... shipping soon ... etc have been said since 2016. So it is up to each person to decide how much mileage the upcoming big reveal has. However ... I do get that he is hoping by saying on unofficial things like this FB group that the big reveal is coming that he gets a few days breathing room to get it finalized.
...which is good to remember, in these confusing times.
Which part ? Well...about everything you claim happened...or do you mean it's actually in separate, differents parts scattered around ?
For a project from 2013 that involved three companies, had 230+ official updates, over 400 unofficial "murmur" updates, 100,000+ kickstarter comments, three dakka threads totaling over 300 pages, dozens of mostly deleted Palladium complaint threads, and dozens of interviews both video and written... yes... the proof is indeed about as scattered as it could get. Let's start with the basic premise... you said SPM had nothing to do with Robotech which is why I mentioned that Ninja Division was formed from Soda Pop and Cypher. Do you accept that or need proof?
Which part ? Well...about everything you claim happened...or do you mean it's actually in separate, differents parts scattered around ?
For a project from 2013 that involved three companies, had 230+ official updates, over 400 unofficial "murmur" updates, 100,000+ kickstarter comments, three dakka threads totaling over 300 pages, dozens of mostly deleted Palladium complaint threads, and dozens of interviews both video and written... yes... the proof is indeed about as scattered as it could get. Let's start with the basic premise... you said SPM had nothing to do with Robotech which is why I mentioned that Ninja Division was formed from Soda Pop and Cypher. Do you accept that or need proof?
Well yes, I would like to see the proof ...you seem to claim something very solid and undisputable in the post you made, so I was genuinely interested to read where it was specifically explained about that Robotech Kickstarter fiasco, since I didn't know of it before it became "famous" (I didn't pledge and didn't even know it existed at that time). I understand it's a mess to find whom says what, which is why I thought you would point those out for me, since it seemed something really obvious and easy to find for you. Now it looks like it's not that easy or obvious in the end.
Sarouan wrote: Well yes, I would like to see the proof ...you seem to claim something very solid and undisputable in the post you made, so I was genuinely interested to read where it was specifically explained about that Robotech Kickstarter fiasco, since I didn't know of it before it became "famous" (I didn't pledge and didn't even know it existed at that time). I understand it's a mess to find whom says what, which is why I thought you would point those out for me, since it seemed something really obvious and easy to find for you. Now it looks like it's not that easy or obvious in the end.
No worries as that is actually the easiest one to prove. I remember that one of several places it was mentioned was during an Adepticon video interview the year of the kickstarter. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe John Cadice with his deep, silky voice explaining how Ninja Division was formed.
WYVERN GAMING LEAVES NINJA DIVISION FOR IMPRESSIONS
Takes 'Cthulhu' With It
Posted by William Niebling on January 7, 2019 @ 1:01 pm CT
Wyvern Gaming is ending its relationship with Ninja Division and entering a new partnership with Impressions to handle the distribution of its titles into the trade.
The shift includes the second edition of Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game and Short Order Hero, which will both be available from Impressions starting in April, followed by Sojourn and The Horror in Dunwich expansion for Cthulhu in May and the release of Onami into the trade in June.
Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game was distributed through Ninja Division following a successful Kickstarter campaign in 2016 (see “Ninja Division Gets Rights to ‘Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game’”). In this cooperative deck building game, players must work together to stop the evil machinations of the Elder Gods. The new edition will include some corrections, an updated rulebook, and new card templates. For 1 to 6 players. MSRP is $59.99.
The first expansion for Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game will be the stand-alone set The Horror of Dunwich. This set shifts the action to the mysteriously disturbing town of Dunwich and the “horror” that lives within it. It can be played on its own or combined with the original game. MSRP is $59.99.
Short Order Hero puts players in the shoes of short-order cooks competing for the only job opening at a “greasy spoon” diner. Players race to serve up the best meals they can while sabotaging the efforts of their rivals. Short Order Hero features artwork by Walt Disney and Warner Bros. alum Greg Wray. For 2 to 5 players. MSRP is $24.99.
In Sojourn, a solitaire game, the player must try to recover the fragments of their broken time machine, scattered throughout history, and reassemble it before they are lost in time forever. MSRP is $24.99.
Onami was part of Wyvern’s original deal with Ninja Division (see the link above for details), but the game was never released into distribution. Wyvern’s new relationship with Impression will enable them to release the game into the trade starting in June. MSRP is $29.99.
That is probably their most well-known partnered studio at this time. (after the loss of My Little Pony: Tales of Equestria)
Not looking good for an 'angel' to come in and save them if they have seemingly stopped all corporate function since october on all fronts.
Just wanted to check in and let you know that with the holidays, I do not foresee being able to check in with our Licensing Manager or Execs for news until after the new year. I will follow up with them & this thread on Monday, January 8th, 2019.
Feel sorry for Paizo but at the same time there was info out there about ND at that time. Hopefully the announcement is something positive for all the backers though.
Just wanted to check in and let you know that with the holidays, I do not foresee being able to check in with our Licensing Manager or Execs for news until after the new year. I will follow up with them & this thread on Monday, January 8th, 2019.
So we will see what we hear out of Paizo.
Nothing. It got kicked down the street until the next licensing meeting on an unspecified day.
Sounds like the promised update from Archon about SP/ND not paying them for production back in November. Wouldn't be surprised if ND is telling them not to say anything public as it might spook an investor that's totally about to give ND money so they can pay people.
Monkeysloth wrote: Feel sorry for Paizo but at the same time there was info out there about ND at that time. Hopefully the announcement is something positive for all the backers though.
I don't feel one bit of sympathy for Paizo. They've shown a bunch of bad judgement in the last year or so and basically kicked two partners (Wizkids and Reaper) with good records for putting out minis to the curb for what? What was SPM/ND ever going to do that was so much better than their Pathfinder partners were already doing. <- Note the lack of question mark.
I feel sorry for the Starfinder fans that might have been unaware of ND issues though...
Paizo didn't kick reaper to the curb. Reaper turned them down. This was stated by Bryan back when he still worked for them that they passed on Starfinder.
I don't know about Wizkids but more likely they passed too because there wasn't a market large enough for plastics.
That still seems odd.
There's plenty of use for nicely sculpted scifi figures.
Reaper really doesn't seem too keen on doing much with sf stuff though.
Is the market just that small for space stuff outside of big name wargames?
I think one of this issues would be Reaper really likes to sell things that can cross over to other games. Even Pathfinder minis are be used in lots of places. Starfinder however, really would sell mostly to Starfinder players as there's not a lot of Sci-fi/fantasy mixes with it's aesthetics.
So while Reaper would make money off the figures, metal I'd assume, they could instead put that effort into something that will yield a higher amount of sales.
Paizo also has its Starfinder pawns, further lowering demand for the miniatures. Also, of course, I don't think RPG'ers really want an iconic miniature. They want a miniature that looks like their character, not that that's always possible in fantasy, either...
I suspect another issue is that sci-fi in general hasn't gone the route of a generic template the way fantasy did. So many people have created variations of Tolkien stuff that a lot of the DnD style stuff is pretty interchangeable.
Meanwhile, while sci-fi HAS serious tropes and repeated concepts, most people are attached to very specific alien races. There's always space elves, but the specifics of different space elves matter to people more than what you see in fantasy settings. It makes it harder to create demand for "generic" sci fi stuff.
Apparently that Paizo licensing meeting is today. We'll see if anything shakes out of it. It's internal so won't involve ND but rather probably address Paizo's response to ND's (in)action.
Just to clarify, this is an Paizo internal meeting and it's today.
My hope with trying to stay in the loop of what's going on and communicate with you that I am doing so, is to let you know that we are not ignoring our community. I understand the frustration from folks who feel ignored and my intention is to be able to let you know we are here listening and I am doing my best to ensure that if there is any information to pass along we can do so as soon as possible. One thing I have learned, both from the perspective of a consumer and as part of a business, is how glacial the pace of business can be for those left waiting to hear more. I know how easy it is to translate a lack of communication with feelings of being ignored or forgotten. Since I know that is not the case at Paizo, I hope I am at the very least passing that sentiment along.
I apologize for getting hopes up that I might come back with more details. Very likely, there still isn't going to be any new information to share. However, I know that earlier in the thread someone was asking for details on what we're doing and I hoped by letting you know I would be attending this meeting, I was providing a more concrete example of that this issue is not being ignored.
Monkeysloth wrote: Paizo didn't kick reaper to the curb. Reaper turned them down. This was stated by Bryan back when he still worked for them that they passed on Starfinder.
Well that sucks...or maybe not because I'm not so much of a Reaper customer as I once was...
Monkeysloth wrote: I don't know about Wizkids but more likely they passed too because there wasn't a market large enough for plastics.
The company that sells unpainted Star Trek space ships? And not even the ones you want...
That's a really odd comparison if you're trying to knock what I said. Star Trek is a huge license with a large fanbase. Starfinder isn't.
When companies like Paizo go out to someone for a license like game play aids sales figures are going to be shared. Assuming Paizo asked Wizkids (we don't know if they approached them at all) there was something in that data shared that had Wizkids decide they didn't want to produce the minis.
If I remember correctly, Paizo approached WizKids and Reaper about it, and both declined. I think with Reaper there was mentioned that they have their own Sci Fi line/projects and that was the reason they declined on Starfinder.
akai wrote: If I remember correctly, Paizo approached WizKids and Reaper about it, and both declined. I think with Reaper there was mentioned that they have their own Sci Fi line/projects and that was the reason they declined on Starfinder.
Funny they only remember their sci-fi line when it comes to licensing deals then forget about the rest of the time...
And to think they passed on Starfinder because they raked in all that sweet cash from Deadlands--both regular flavour and Noir. Unless Pinnacle was giving away the license I'm not sure why Reaper would have bit on all the Savage Worlds stuff.
Monkeysloth wrote:That's a really odd comparison if you're trying to knock what I said. Star Trek is a huge license with a large fanbase. Starfinder isn't.
Not at all. I think there would be more interest in good looking sci-fantasy character minis than 3 or 4 random ships from the Star Trek universe.
Anyways, we are at an impasse and this thread is about complaints against SPM/ND and not missed opportunities/dodged bullets for others.
So it looks like Paizo's response to ND in the previously linked thread is to let them do their thing and "keep communication open". Oh well.
Over the last several months while discussing the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures with the executive team and Glenn & Jim I’ve personally learned a lot about the processes and legal details involved with IP licenses. In particular, I’ve noted how every time I think “maybe we could simply…” or “can’t we just…” it never turns out to be simple, straightforward, or even possible. Making things even more complex, due to the business and contractual obligations involved, we’re limited in what we can communicate publicly with you about details of this ongoing issue.
I had a chance to sit in on one of the regular Paizo licensing meeting yesterday to discuss where things are at and how we can proceed. This license has clearly not progressed as we expected and we know that it has impacted and frustrated folks who backed Ninja Division’s Kickstarter. Since its launch we have been monitoring this license and at this time, after careful review, we feel that the best way we can support our community in receiving a resolution to their kickstarter pledges is to keep communication between Paizo and Ninja Division open, to support them in exploring their options for completion of the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures Kickstarter, and to encourage them to communicate with their backers.
With PaizoCon coming up fast, much of my time at work will be tied up in all of the the event planning and execution that goes into that convention. I want to go ahead and set expectations now, that I might not be consistent with checking in every Monday with this thread. But I will aim for every other week. If it ends up longer than that, you are more than welcome to request a check in. I routinely check for new posts in this thread whenever I am looking through the forums and I should see it with a business day or so of posting.
was something mentioned about Kingdom Death stepping in to help out with the Possessed Twilight Knight/ Oni Knight model that was shown off in the Relic Knights campaign?
Spoiler:
I thought I saw someone had reached out to Poots about it, but now I can't seem to find any post mentioning it.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: was something mentioned about Kingdom Death stepping in to help out with the Possessed Twilight Knight/ Oni Knight model that was shown off in the Relic Knights campaign?
Wishful thinking perhaps...?
I think people have asked Adam for help in the RK TK, in the same way that people have asked Paizo for help on the Starfinder campaign. Unfortunately, neither Adam nor Paizo were given the funds to fulfill on behalf of SPM/ND, so they would have to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts (and depths of their own wallets). Potentially, Adam and/or Paizo could assume the obligation on SPM/ND in exchange for a transfer of the IP, but I don't believe that's on the table. It's not like Adam and Paizo may even have the capacity to produce those things correctly, even if they wanted to.
"In the spirit of the article below, as a manufacturer of miniatures for Ninja Division, I can officially state that Starfinder and Relick Knights 2 will NOT be delivered. Ninja Division owns Archon money for entire! Starfinder manufacturing (delivered and what's in the warehouse) Relics Knights (entirely manufactured and stored in our warehouse) and a few more delivered projects like Humble Bundle (entirely delivered). At this stage, we are searching for legal advice in the USA to help us out in recovering at least a fraction of costs we accommodated with manufacturing for Ninja Division. We are also, speaking with Paizo about finding some solution for backers but I would not count on it as Ninja Divisions stated to us that their bank account is dry as a desert. Anyway, an official Archon statement will be out within a few days. Sorry for the bad news."
In Response, John Starck Cadice confirmed they had not paid Archon, Archon was inuring additional costs due to non-payment, and did not deny any of the facts as stated by Archon. (as to the money as well as where products physically are) Also confirms that the promised bailout which has been given as private info for months does not exist.
John Starck Cadice Joshua Davis no, you are right. They need to get paid to get the products out so we can move them to you - t hat is 1 issue. the other, as I stated, is something that they are resposible for in Poland, that causes more undue financial stress, and they need to act on it - we are not blaming anyone for anything - 2 separate issues -
John Starck Cadice We had essential funding pulled that prevented movement -
and forced things to be delayed, and that forced Archons need for relief - we respect and understand that - we are not monsters , they have a business to run too
John Starck Cadice Joshua Davis lets use constructive terms here -
We are an operation that is working to fulfill our obligations, and timelines and delays have costs - that's pretty much it. we are FULLY responsible for ourselves, but I jumped in this morning, because one of our suppliers decided to make statements for us, and has prompted my immediate response, because you guys deserve to knnow we are here working, and not letting things go
Monkeysloth wrote: hey, a third thread for this. Though here's probably the most appropriate place for it.
To be fair, SPM/ND has impacted more than just their own stuff. They've screwed Prodos/Archon. They've screwed Paizo/Starfinder. SPM/ND is like herpes.
Jarek Ewertowski Afternoon, I am Archon's representative, AMA regarding this issue.
Jarek Ewertowski Johnnie Chau Hi there, only regular ones. An official Archon statement will be out once we agree on next steps with Paizo, we are actively looking for a solution to Starfinder KS. Paizo received a proposal from Archon and it meant to be discussed in their HQ.
Jarek Ewertowski Tom Anders Yes, also, not sure how invoicing works in the USA however in Poland once you issue an invoice, even if it was not paid by the customer you have to pay VAT, corporation and income tax from it in the next tax point (quarterly in our case). We could try to recover taxes and book all ND invoices as so-called "bad invoices" only if ND calls bankruptcy. This inventory for us is a huge investment on our part that frozen a lot of investment money. So we kinda would like to recover as much as possible. A potential solution, in lieu of Polish and USA purchasing regulations, is to secure unpaid stock, in this case, all remaining manufacturing pieces, as a compensation for unpaid invoices and then sell it as assorted miniatures to recover some of the costs Archon had. In this case, the problem is still with unserved backers - and this is where we need to find a solution. One of them would be: If you are an Archon backer (for Chronicle X - still unshipped or 2nd wave VoW) we would add the miniatures from Starfinder/Relic Knights to your box. Other solutions, well, it really will be up to Paizo.
So looks like Starfinder backers may get minis from Paizo as part of an agreement with Archon.
And It looks like RK2 and WotF models may be sold off as 'generic assorted miniatures' via various means.
Both of those result in ND still being on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars of resin, with the inventory literally gone.
Like I said elsewhere, Archon could pull in a bit of goodwill if they are willing to let backers get this stuff at a reasonable cost. Would certainly help with their plastics coming.
I'd be down for a few more models. I've liked all the board games they've done under their Archon label.
Still want that Noh Possessed Twilight Knight... but I don't think it was even sculpted.
They'd get even more goodwill if they completed AVP fulfillment. Regardless if some AVP backers are still screwed, hopefully that won't be the case with SDE and Starfinder customers.
There is a ticking clock. Archon has to evaluate and pay the VAT, corporation and income tax quarterly... So Archon needs this inventory to be 'gone' in the next month one way or another.
I didn't really follow the ongoing development of the SDE 2.0/Legends rules (or whatever the hell they were calling it) - there seemed to be a pretty extensive public beta for a while, at least. Did the rules end up in a semi-decent place?
It would be nice if we could get a finalized version of those (with or without the promised campaign material), even if we aren't going to get, you know, any of the actual physical stuff we paid for.
If SP sells off the IP, I assume all the existing work would be included in that deal, so anything in-progress probably wouldn't be released. You'd need a fed up employee leaking stuff, which isn't out of the realm of possibility.
Going another way, was there ever a community-made set of rules? With all the work people do for Inq28 and Necro, you'd think there would be something.
Looking at it from a business standpoint, Archon is likely happy to sell the entire lot at cost with freight as a passthrough. I think they give SPM until the end of the month (Feb 28) before they move into liquidation of the stock in March.
Paizo or some angel might come in, to give SPM a reprieve, but I doubt it. They won't simply pay the next quarter's storage costs, because that's just spending money for nothing.
If the stock goes into liquidation, I suspect Archon would have the right to sell them on the open market before tossing them into the trash, so they absolutely could eBay them. That announcement probably happens days into March, and closes March 20th or so, so they have time to pack and ship, an then liquidate any unsold inventory.
Possibly, Paizo could buy the (Starfinder) stock during liquidation, which would probably be the best case scenario. Starfinder minis have some value.
The Relic Knights and other stuff is dead weight, as MMI and the other distributors have been clearancing SDE and RK for a while. Worthless to a business, even if it's valuable to some players. If Archon doesn't sell it direct during liquidation, it's gone forever.
This leaves SPM high and dry, with nothing to sell and nothing to deliver. Final nail in the coffin, as they'd have to produce any new product for cash, prepaid upfront. Nobody will take the risk of fronting for terms.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Power Cosmic wrote: Going another way, was there ever a community-made set of rules? With all the work people do for Inq28 and Necro, you'd think there would be something.
There are multiple alternate rulesets out there.
I wrote Shadow Delve essentials as a fast(er)-playing streamlined version of SDE "classic". It's available as a variant on BGG.
There's another guy who wrote Lootmeter, but he has no fething clue what he's doing, so he's been constantly band-aiding things, adding rules to fix other rules, not understanding that he's trying to build a stone tower on quicksand. It's basically gak, and better to play Original SDE rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ubik2000 wrote: I didn't really follow the ongoing development of the SDE 2.0/Legends rules (or whatever the hell they were calling it) - there seemed to be a pretty extensive public beta for a while, at least. Did the rules end up in a semi-decent place?
The "final" version of the rules are playable, if you like being led by your nose through the adventure. There is a turn tracker that drives the pace of the game. It's a mechanical way of preventing stalling (by either side), but at the cost of zero emergent gameplay. The flip side is that there's no advantage for doing well or poorly. The mini-Boss always apperars, right on schedule, as does the Dungeon Boss. Balance is a disaster, as it's still a lootfest. It takes *forever* for the Consul to kill the Heroes due to a massive number of Princess Coins given to the players.
Guess we will know more next week. From facebook :
Drew Olds If it is possible for you to sell the miniatures off as generic science fiction pieces and such, is it possible for you to find a way to make deals with backers?
Jarek Ewertowski Drew Olds As stated above, yes, however, we kinda need to get Paizo on the same boat, just in case. More info about this next week.
Theophony wrote: Maybe Miniaturemarket will buy a bucketload of stuff like they did from Palladium, they need something for the next Black Friday sale.
Unlikely, as they're already clearancing SPM/ND product in hand.
And it's not like MMI bit on the mountain of unsold Robotech product that Palladium had been holding up until their license was pulled for non-payment.
We are wrapping up some financial details that take a bit of stripping out so its digestible and accurate - and we plan on giving our partners a day or so to absorb the things.
So,
We will have our update out the door tomorrow for partners of Ninja, and then if it's okay, I'd like to up the schedule to Monday - expected delivery from us with updates on status of KS projects."
Not sure how you can strip stuff out of the financials and still give an accurate reflection of the company’s position - what will they try and hide? I’ll believe there’s an update coming when it’s posted very easy to turn around on Monday and blame a creditor for delays or withholding it.
Lorek wrote: Soda Pop minis is still listed on the Adepticon sponsors page. Wonder how they'll deal with this at a con?
Things like this have happened at cons before. Sometimes they're a no show that gets swept under the rug during the event itself. Sometimes they show up and people scoff at the nerve and a few people take some poor volunteers to task on the matter. With SPM I could see it going either way.
Since they're listed as a sponsor they've probably paid out a bunch already,
so assuming they have product to sell (which might not be the case since warehouse space costs money stuff like Doomseekers may be going direct from factory to distributors) showing up and sleeping in the truck might be worth doing simply to generate some cash which can be used to pay for things (which product can't do)
so assuming they have product to sell (which might not be the case since warehouse space costs money stuff like Doomseekers may be going direct from factory to distributors) showing up and sleeping in the truck might be worth doing simply to generate some cash which can be used to pay for things (which product can't do)
Maybe they could still bunk with Palladium, or has that ship fully sailed?
The purpose of this update is to provide both our fans and partners with an update on Ninja Division’s current company status, the status of our outstanding projects, and restate our commitment to the continuation of our popular brands.
Operations
Staff
It broke our hearts to let the majority of our incredible staff go at the end of 2018. Their determination in the face of company adversity and their passion for our products kept us going. We look forward to seeing what they do next. Ninja Division is currently staffed by its three owners (who are off salary) and a sales manager who continue to work towards the successful reorganization of Ninja Division and pursue Kickstarter fulfillment options.
Communication
With staff layoffs, we are unable to individually respond to all email and social media posts we receive, and our time is best spent pursuing all available options for the continuance of the brands we all love.
External Partnerships - Licensors
Ninja Division would like to request that backers from all of our outstanding projects direct your questions and inquiries to us. We understand we have not been able to maintain communications with the regularity or presence that communities and projects like this desire, and that we have limited availability while we work on solutions, but the ownership of these projects lies with us. Our outside partners are not able to service refunds, returns, or ship your product.
Kickstarter Updates
Super Dungeon
As part of the ongoing development process for Super Dungeon and to satisfy both company and backer expectations of quality, the Super Dungeon Kickstarter project was restructured as below:
The 2nd Edition product which was intended to be a single boxed game with only incremental changes would need to be broken out into three distinct products: Super Dungeon Explore, Super Dungeon Arcade, Super Dungeon Pet Parade.
The Super Dungeon Legends expansion could not meet quality expectations as an expansion and was turned into a standalone product. Requiring significant additional development.
The smaller single expansions would all require redevelopment to be useable with the new changes to the game for the above products.
This restructuring of the project increased development time, development costs, manufacturing costs, and future shipping costs.
Super Dungeon then suffered an additional delay in March 2017 when the lead designer for Super Dungeon developed health problems which cut work availability for over six months. To soften the impact, Ninja Division hired a new lead designer in August of 2017 to help continue Super Dungeon’s development.
As of now, Super Dungeon is 95% complete and production ready, requiring only finalization and layout of the Legends core game.
Relic Knights
The Relic Knights 2nd Edition core rules are completely developed. The 2nd Edition Starter Set has been manufactured. However, Ninja Division does not currently have the funds to finish assembly and purchase the finalized product from the manufacturer.
The 2nd Edition Rulebook and Darkspace Calamity Upgrade deck are laid out and ready for production. The Void Break sourcebook has had unit profiles written in preparation of playtesting. Fiction and art were in advanced stages before the company’s status required development to be paused. All sculpts, including non-Kickstarter Void Break units, are sculpted and ready for production with the exception of Relic Knight Zineda.
Starfinder Masterclass
The masterclass project is highly technical, using a proprietary manufacturing technology from our manufacturing partners. Difficulties and delays in getting a quality product and re-engineering of sculpting to meet these demands delayed the initial waves of releases.
These difficulties and delays, in part with stretched company finances, led to us to pause manufacturing to find a solution to meet the financial obligation to release more miniatures. To date, Ninja Division has manufactured and delivered over 28,000 miniatures to backers but has a great many more to complete. All sculpts are fully re-engineered and ready for production.
Way of the Fighter
All game specific products for Way of the Fighter have been fulfilled. Only models, which are not required for gameplay, are outstanding. Production of all non-Super Dungeon crossover miniatures is 50% complete. All remaining sculpts are complete and ready for production.
Financial Disclosure
The Cost Overrun chart below illustrates the revenue collected by Ninja Division through crowdsourced funding, the costs Ninja Division has spent to date, and the total costs required for completion of the entire project through to delivery.
Spend by Project
Below is break down of how funds were spent towards the creation of each project over the course of its current development lifecycle.
Total Fees: Includes fees charged by Kickstarter and the merchant account processor.
Project Development: This includes staff and contractor costs for art, sculpting, writing, graphic design, etc.
Overhead Payroll: Includes payroll for management, marketing, sales, and operations staff.
Overhead Expenses: Includes facilities leasing, marketing costs, office supplies, etc.
Royalties: Royalties paid to licensors and/or developers.
Production: Includes tooling and production costs for KS rewards.
Fulfillment: Includes freight shipping and order handling.
Questions and Answers
Over the past months, we have received many questions and want to provide answers to the most common ones we hear that were not addressed above.
Q: What is the relationship between Soda Pop Miniatures and Ninja Division Publishing?
Soda Pop Miniatures is an IP Holding Company that owns the Super Dungeon, Relic Knights, and Takoashi University brands. Soda Pop granted Ninja Division Publishing license rights to develop and publish tabletop games for these brands and use its mark in relation to relevant marketing and social outreach.
Q: Why did you start new Kickstarters before completing outstanding projects?
As studio personnel became free they needed to be moved to new projects. At the time, while projects had been delayed development was still moving at a satisfactory pace and current budgets and projections showed that the new projects were achievable.
Q: Why did you publish other games before completing outstanding projects?
Ninja Division’s portfolio is a mix of internally developed crowdsourced products, internally developed self-funded products, and published 3rd party products in order to have a robust catalog to keep the company moving forward and growing. Development on these products starts months or years ahead of release and by independent teams, thus they were in development prior to and alongside crowdsourced products. Games that had been in development were released as planned.
Q: Is Ninja Division bankrupt/out of business?
No. Ninja Division continues to operate and pursue all available avenues to continue all our brands and provide backers with their rewards.
Q: Will I receive my rewards?
We have not given up. Every day we work towards the goal of delivering backers rewards and the revitalization of the brands and products we have spent a decade creating.
Q: Is there anything backers can do to help?
We respect and thank the fans and hopeful backers who have stepped into the gaps of communication, kept an open mind and worked with us to tamp out wild speculation and overly negative and inappropriate threats and hostility. We are all in the same place as you, eager to see a solution, and eager to find a way forward.
Continue to play! We have provided access to PDF and digital content for players to play games using your existing collections from some of our key Kickstarters. A healthy understanding of our current rules, some in-house gaming, and a little time with your clubs and game stores goes a long way to foster interest and support while we work to get things moving.
Looking Ahead
Despite our current difficulties, Ninja Division continues to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to get products to backers and bring new products to market featuring the brands our customers love. To that end, we are currently working under consultation to reorganize Ninja Division in order to better position it for success and secure investment.
As we proceed with our reorganization we have had partners and fans with operational, business, and financial acumen help us tremendously. If you have a professional skill set and passion in those areas, we would encourage you to reach out as we are working across various stages of consultation to repair components of our operation. As a bicameral entity, our business has sometimes been separated from our creative skill sets, and this realization makes us not too proud to seek professional assistance to ensure a stable and positive growth into the future.
Once we have concrete information regarding the company, new production, and fulfillment we will post another update. We thank you for taking the time to read through this lengthy announcement, as well as your continued patience.
sad to see the state of the relic knights and SDEL are worse that i'd hoped financially,
and I guess Prodos/Archon unicast isn't as easy to design minis for as was made out (which would also explain why some of the starfinder stuff delivered was poor quality, the process just couldn't handle those particular sculpts as they were)
Interestingly, at least for the RK2 graph, they're asserting the pledge manager brought in next to 0 additional funds, which is a little hard to believe.
Is it?, people were grumbling about SDEL already so the PM uptake may not have been huge
or it may be more likely that since they talk about the breakdowns being of money taken by crowdsource funding that any extras from the PM (not crowdfunding) isn't included
Those are some big numbers just to finish off all of those. Well over a million dollars more is needed to deliver everything based off of the charts. That's not chump change yet they make it sound like things will still be delivered soon.
Also love how they're glossing over SPM being owned by the same people and them just paying royalties to themselves but I don't think there are many people that don't realize that so it just makes them look worse.
They seem to be posting the same update across all their delinquent projects. In the Starfinder comments, one backer pointed out this interesting tidbit.
Ken Marable just now
Your cost overruns chart is inaccurate. I just checked my Game On Tabletop account to try to remember what I pledged, and it states that you collected an additional $190,000 there to put you just shy of $640,000 collected for the Starfinder Masterclass project, not the less than $500,000 shown in the chart, and which would put you at more revenue than costs to date for at least this project, but obviously deeply in debt considering other projects.
If true and he can actually see how much was raised (and not fulfilled in full obviously) after the kickstarter campaign ended, it seems that Ninja Division/Soda Pop have the same self serving and dishonest accounting practices as their former partners Palladium when they too "forgot" to include their post-crowdfunding and retail sales for the products that backers funded in their entirety in their financial calculations.
warboss wrote: They seem to be posting the same update across all their delinquent projects. In the Starfinder comments, one backer pointed out this interesting tidbit.
Ken Marable just now
Your cost overruns chart is inaccurate. I just checked my Game On Tabletop account to try to remember what I pledged, and it states that you collected an additional $190,000 there to put you just shy of $640,000 collected for the Starfinder Masterclass project, not the less than $500,000 shown in the chart, and which would put you at more revenue than costs to date for at least this project, but obviously deeply in debt considering other projects.
If true and he can actually see how much was raised (and not fulfilled in full obviously) after the kickstarter campaign ended, it seems that Ninja Division/Soda Pop have the same self serving and dishonest accounting practices as their former partners Palladium when they too "forgot" to include their post-crowdfunding and retail sales for the products that backers funded in their entirety in their financial calculations.
in that case it's certain what I speculated above based on the quote in the statement: the breakdowns being of money taken by crowdsource funding that any extras from the PM (not crowdfunding) isn't included,
so you can basically boost all the graphs collected income, revenue spent and cost to deliver by whatever the PMs took, the pie charts are probably still valid though
Edit: money taken in PM is also much more protected so more likely to have been returned as refunds or clawed back by CC/Banks etc
Except increased PM revenue doesn't result in the same percentage increase in costs, especially since they've called out "Development" as their major cost. Additional PM funds should result in virtually no increase in Development costs.
I'd disagree there since development isn't finished its not going to be a fixed cost but an ever increasing one so I think the proportions will hold up
no whether their spend on it (or anything else) was sensible or even reasonable that's a different matter
What I would like to know is how exactly they believe to "fill" the gap needed to deliver everything from the Kickstarters. Are they still selling stuff through their ND website ?
Monkeysloth wrote: Those are some big numbers just to finish off all of those. Well over a million dollars more is needed to deliver everything based off of the charts.
That's not chump change yet they make it sound like things will still be delivered soon.
Also love how they're glossing over SPM being owned by the same people and them just paying royalties to themselves but I don't think there are many people that don't realize that so it just makes them look worse.
Yup. Looks like they need at least $1.2M to finish all 4 KS, but it looks like $50k would easily be enough to finish WotF, which has been in limbo for a while.
Soon. Except they have no money to deliver what's already been produced, to say nothing of the things that are yet to be made.
Yeah, there's a lot of double-dealing going on there, like ignoring post-KS Pledge Manager and Store Sales revenue, etc.
Why do I get the feeling that if some angel investor suddenly came into the picture and game them $50k without any strings attached (aka like the money they've collected on kickstarter) that the money would be used for other things... Just a hunch on my part...
warboss wrote: Why do I get the feeling that if some angel investor suddenly came into the picture and game them $50k without any strings attached (aka like the money they've collected on kickstarter) that the money would be used for other things... Just a hunch on my part...
So we're imagining that there's an angel investor for WotF who'd just give them the $50k to deliver the remaining WotF stuff?
Pretending that such a person exists, no, I don't see things going any different from the way they've gone so far. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but their history of repeatedly squandering cash strongly suggests they'd continue to do the same.
I'm almost certain the reason every potential investor/buyer they've had just walks away laughing after looking at their financials. They had a lot of bills to pay just in the salary end, lets not even getting to licensing costs and marketing expenditures like con space, and didn't set their goals correctly or didn't want to live like other game makers and just not pay people well.
Nah, not WoTF, even if it is the cheapest to finish, the game there is done and out, the minis are just bling (and bling that those that wanted largely paid for via the KS)
the one they need to pump money into is going to be starfinder as if that can be completed they'll have minis to sell and a market (even if it is a small one) that wants them especially as a lot of them are fairly unique
I know I shouldn't judge them at this point, but those comments about licences. It's like they haven't heard of Pokemon(Nintendo) or Sunrise(Namco Bandai).
Nevertheless, like I said before on BGG, I sincerely hope this matter is settled, and the backers get their rewards. Also, like before, while I believe messing up with the mismanagement of the Kickstarters was no excuse, I also believe this would never have been this bad if most of the backers who pulled out thought they were pre-ordering something(Which is now true. Thanks again, Monolith).
P.S. Before I get bombarded, I have backed and received both versions of Way of The Fighter, and I am now waiting for my Stygian Depths stuff to arrive.
Nintendo is only a co-owner in the pokemon company. There's also a difference between that and SPM creating ND and licensing to themselves when they don't actually make enough money to pay their own bills.
Having a holding company that you own for one of your products is find if that product/ip is big enough that other people would actually want to license your IP. Doing it when you're small and under budget constraints is shady.
Nevertheless, like I said before on BGG, I sincerely hope this matter is settled, and the backers get their rewards. Also, like before, while I believe messing up with the mismanagement of the Kickstarters was no excuse, I also believe this would never have been this bad if most of the backers who pulled out thought they were pre-ordering something(Which is now true. Thanks again, Monolith).
Nice word salad of excuses. Also, what exactly did Monoloth do? Aside from deliver on their KS well and more or less on time?
Maybe cut the booth babe budget next time instead ND/SPM?
Monolith paid for and manufactured Claustrophobia prior to their KS so it really was just a pre-order with no extras or chance of backers influencing the game in any way (selling just over 70% of the units available, so probably in profit but not by a huge amount))
Meanwhile, a reminder that spreading lies or mindless attacks on random people you "feel" are linked to SPM/ND can have backlash, and that there is indeed a problem with some people out there in the community...
From facebook, Questron
This is an official statement from Questron...
Due to recent circumstances not related with us in any form, Questron is in the need to left a few things clear.
Questron is not Sodapop / Ninja Division. Questron is not a subsidiary of Sodapop / Ninja Division. Questron is a spanish (as you may note by my english) Sculpt Studio sited in Madrid. We started to work in this industry eight years ago, first for Impact Miniatures, then for... Modiphious, and with the time, Mantic, Level 99, and a lot others, and yes, Sodapop / Ninja Division. That was a long term work relationship, in wich we made friends (I consider John Cadice a friend), and we made really cool sculpts, and we were well payed and in time (rare thing in this biz)
This declaration is needed, because we don't want to, due to this work relationship, make the public believe that we are SD/ND, and, due to some circumnstances we all know and doesn't need to be repeated, believe we are involved in the sutation SD/ND is passing. We have worked for them, we did A TON of miniatures for Relic Knights and SDE, but that's all our relation with them. Freelancing.
Maybe this statement would sound like "St Peter denying Jesus", but it's not that... As I said, John is a friend, and SD/ND is a company that treated all his workers (freelancers included) by the BEST way. I can't blame to Sodapop about nothing, only good feelings and all my support to them. In fact, I seize this writing to ask you guys to give them the chance to fix the thing, I'm 150% sure they are the firsts that want to see our work in the store shelves...
But some of the projects we are collaborating and workng on right now are receiving bad feedback just because we, Questron, are working on them... and that's not fair for some of the developers that trust in our skills... just because people believes we are SD/ND .. WE ARE NOT. We were freelancing for them during the sculpt stage of their projects for... 4, 5 years? (we've worked on SDE; Relic Knights, WoF, and many others) Meanwhile at the same time we attended Mantic (in many projects, from The Walking Dead, to Vanguard) and a lot of other developers...
I hope this clearafies someway one "uncomfortable" situation for everyone... Situation that I KNOW John and all the people from SD/ND are working hard to resolve.
Remember, guys, what you're doing can also be considered a crime, no matter how "justified" you feel you are...Would be good if some huge load of ice was thrown in some people's pants as well. Anger leads to the Dark Side, 'fter all.
Note that it is not a lie or an attack to say that you will boycott a company because of their partnerships. It's how we broke Apartheid.
It is entirely reasonable for Customer to say - we will boycott your products and highlight your bad partnership until such time that you publicly disavow your previous work with them and pledge never to do business with them in the future.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that sort of thing, and if fact, it is desirable to create external consequences in order punish companies that customers cannot otherwise affect.
Remember, guys, what you're doing can also be considered a crime, no matter how "justified" you feel you are...Would be good if some huge load of ice was thrown in some people's pants as well. Anger leads to the Dark Side, 'fter all.
I assume you're referring to laws concerning libel and defamation. Those vary greatly from country to country. Here in the US, I believe one has to maliciously spread information they know, or have reason to know, is untrue in order for that individual to run afoul of the law. That said, I'm not an attorney, so what do I know.
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JohnHwangDD wrote: Note that it is not a lie or an attack to say that you will boycott a company because of their partnerships. It's how we broke Apartheid.
You broke apartheid? That's an impressive accomplishment. What role did you play?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Note that it is not a lie or an attack to say that you will boycott a company because of their partnerships. It's how we broke Apartheid.
It is entirely reasonable for Customer to say - we will boycott your products and highlight your bad partnership until such time that you publicly disavow your previous work with them and pledge never to do business with them in the future.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that sort of thing, and if fact, it is desirable to create external consequences in order punish companies that customers cannot otherwise affect.
Except when you're wrong and accuse a company of something they are not, giving a bad vibe when they didn't deserve it.
Besides, this case has nothing to do with Apartheid. And if you think you're doing the same, I believe you are the true danger here, by being completely delusionnal.
Yes, that's called defamation and yes, different countries deal with that. Especially when it has an impact on people's business. Which is why I'm giving you the reminder that yes, it can be considered a crime as well to do that.
It's clear that you think you are in the right. But with Questron here ? Maybe look at the facts first, then ask your guts if maybe they're not "that right" after all.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Note that it is not a lie or an attack to say that you will boycott a company because of their partnerships. It's how we broke Apartheid.
It is entirely reasonable for Customer to say - we will boycott your products and highlight your bad partnership until such time that you publicly disavow your previous work with them and pledge never to do business with them in the future.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that sort of thing, and if fact, it is desirable to create external consequences in order punish companies that customers cannot otherwise affect.
Except when you're wrong and accuse a company of something they are not, giving a bad vibe when they didn't deserve it.
Besides, this case has nothing to do with Apartheid. And if you think you're doing the same, I believe you are the true danger here, by being completely delusionnal.
Yes, that's called defamation and yes, different countries deal with that. Especially when it has an impact on people's business. Which is why I'm giving you the reminder that yes, it can be considered a crime as well to do that.
It's clear that you think you are in the right. But with Questron here ? Maybe look at the facts first, then ask your guts if maybe they're not "that right" after all.
Except for the fact that Questron admits to having done business with SPM/ND. Or are you saying that Questron was lying when they did business with SPM/ND? Either way, Questron deserves to be punished until such time that they pledge that they will refuse business with SPM/ND.
On the contrary, boycotts work. Disinvestment works. That's why IDW and Questron are scared of the blowback. It's why IDW changed their story, and is now saying that they used Questron, when they actually hired SPM/ND (who subcontracted to Questron). If IDW lies about their business partners in order to get money from people, that is actual criminal *fraud*, which is a far more serious thing.
In the United States, truth is an absolute defense against libel and defamation and so forth. Everything that I have said is truth, and can be backed up by quotes from IDW and Questron. My choice to recommend others stop doing business with IDW and Questron is entirely legal. If this causes either company to go under, too fething bad.
If they don't want consequences, they can simply pledge to never do business with SPM/ND again.
I don't think it's fair to look at freelancers who did work at some point past for a company which eventually turned out to be shady; they may not have been at the time the freelancers did work for them.
Now, sure, if the freelancer continues to work for the shady company (but, in most cases, why would they if they're not getting paid and so on), then yeah, calling the freelancer to the carpet for that is probably ok. At the same time, though, I think it's very important to remember that freelancers have very little to do with the day-to-day operations of any company except themselves, and shouldn't bear the punishment of a shady company shafting their customers when the work they did for that company was on contract and they had no influence on how the project was carried out.
There's absolutely a risk, though, for freelancers to continue to accept work from Shady Company once there's more public opinion/knowledge of Shady Company's practices. End consumers probably can't do much here, but other companies may seriously reconsider using those freelancers who are known to support Shady Company.
Valander wrote: I don't think it's fair to look at freelancers who did work at some point past for a company which eventually turned out to be shady; they may not have been at the time the freelancers did work for them.
Now, sure, if the freelancer continues to work for the shady company (but, in most cases, why would they if they're not getting paid and so on), then yeah, calling the freelancer to the carpet for that is probably ok. At the same time, though, I think it's very important to remember that freelancers have very little to do with the day-to-day operations of any company except themselves, and shouldn't bear the punishment of a shady company shafting their customers when the work they did for that company was on contract and they had no influence on how the project was carried out.
There's absolutely a risk, though, for freelancers to continue to accept work from Shady Company once there's more public opinion/knowledge of Shady Company's practices. End consumers probably can't do much here, but other companies may seriously reconsider using those freelancers who are known to support Shady Company.
I agree with this. That's why I suggest that Questron, etc. publicly refuse to do future business wtih SPM/ND so everybody can go forward with a clean slate.
It is not Questron's job or purpose to refuse any paying work. This isn't the systematic killing, oppression, and exploitation of an entire people, these are little toy soldiers.
And they already won't be doing work with SP/ND because a company that doesn't pay is a company that you don't want to do business with as a freelancer.
IDW released press releases explicitly saying they were using ND for sculpts. No mention of Questron.
Only after the blowback did they modify the press releases to say they were using Questron as the artist directly and that ND is still involved but less so than previously said.
All these people who are late to the party are like "think of the children! who could possibly blame Questron?" No one ever blamed Questron. They blamed IDW who said they were using ND and ND who claimed to have 'house artists' which were in fact freelancers all along.
IDW made a poor choice partnering with ND and putting it in press releases. Now they know better.
Considering this was ND they probably lied to IDW and said they did have a house sculptor to which IDW only found out now they don't.
Its fair to discuss this info but we have to admit we don't know what we don't know. It's easy to throw blame but maybe put down the pitchforks as being an angry internet mob as never solved anything.
Are you seriously trying to raise an outrage mob to hunt down freelancers? for real?
They got contracted, they did their job, hopefully they got payed for it, its not their job to do background check on their employers and its not their moral obligation to check their employers ethical status.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Are you seriously trying to raise an outrage mob to hunt down freelancers? for real?
Yes, they are.
Graugeist just added some fuel to the fire on the link I posted before, talking about "boycotting their products until they disavow publicly their previous work with SPM/ND".
See, that's exactly that kind of reaction that gives truth to people accusing you as being "toxic backers spreading negative campaign to bring harm on purpose to companies".
That's what you're doing. You are really going on a wrong road here in your "crusade" against SPM/ND.
Nah, I'm simply saying that I won't be supporting anyone who continues to work with SPM/ND.
Funny enough, they don't but they still get attacked by your "fanboyz", it seems. Apparently Questron's crime was to freelance sculpt for ND/SPM at that time. Mind you, sculpting miniatures is not the same as handling money for a Kickstarter like SDE Legends. To take your Apartheid comparison, it's like attacking the black people working for the white people that were causing the segregation. They should have known better, right ?
You have an influence and you know it, JohnHwang. Don't play dumb and act like you have nothing to do in that matter.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Are you seriously trying to raise an outrage mob to hunt down freelancers? for real?
They got contracted, they did their job, hopefully they got payed for it, its not their job to do background check on their employers and its not their moral obligation to check their employers ethical status.
If they care about their own "brand"/reputation then it is good practice to not willingly associate with those who have a reputation somewhere in between incompetence and outright deception. No one said it was a morale obligation though.
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Sarouan wrote: Meanwhile, a reminder that spreading lies or mindless attacks on random people you "feel" are linked to SPM/ND...
Speaking of that type of accusation, I provided irrefutable proof when you questioned any relationship between SD/CYPHER/ND in the form of John Cadice's own words and you disappeared for months. Do you believe that connection now btw?
I would question what relevance has questron or any other freelancer/ contractor involved has with SP/ ND are we going after the printers for the books/ cards next?
I do not think freelancers should have any pressure of what any of their clients may do in the future and why should they turn down a big contract anyway, they are freelancers.
SP/ ND reputation is important for any freelancer to not take jobs from them since they clearly cannot pay, but beyond that why should they "disavow SP/ ND" or make any promises for "Not working with them in the future", you understand they are different entities right?
That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S
I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S
I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S
I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.
It's truly been ridiculous with some people for a long time - even well before it was apparent things had totally gone off the rails at SP/ND. I'm out my pledge too - and it sucks. But anything Soda Pop did was out of a mix of human error (total feature bloat when they decided to split the game into 3 games) and bad luck (Deke having a heart attack) and not any sort of malfeasance. And while I wouldn't back another SP kickstarter - they don't deserve near the level of hate and vitriol they get for it. A lot of kickstarters have failed and a lot of backers have not gotten their goods. They got in over their heads and they made some bad decisions - they didn't take the money and run off and buy a yacht. People need to get over their "moral" crusade.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S
I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Are you seriously trying to raise an outrage mob to hunt down freelancers? for real?
They got contracted, they did their job, hopefully they got payed for it, its not their job to do background check on their employers and its not their moral obligation to check their employers ethical status.
Hear, hear.
Also, shame on anyone comparing this to flippin' Apartheid.
If you really want to stick it to ND, target anyone who'd consider distributing them. Freelancers are employees with fewer rights.
The artists and sculptors had nothing to do with misusing backer funds. Not a thing. Getting pissy with them for doing freelance artwork is asinine. Ninja Division lied to their backers and misused the funds. Blaming anyone else is straight up misdirected rage. Ignorant, foolish misdirected rage.
Imagine if everything went south with the Kingdom Death kickstarter because of company mismanagement. Would the artists and sculptors deserve to be denounced online? Boycotted? Harassed online or at conventions?
The artists who were hired to do the art and sculpts for SDE, Relic Knights and Starfinder were hired as freelance artists, and they did their job. They didn't lie or steal from anybody. Not you, not me, not anyone. Trying to take them down is idiotic juvenile nonsense.
First of all I assume the absurdity of the discussion is what made it into a comedy film, secondly even if I take such discussion seriously, SPM/ ND were "ok" when such freelancers were contracted.
As a freelancer who works in the gaming industry I find the idea of going after freelancers because games they worked on didn't get funded to be absolutely insane. It also suggests a huge misunderstanding of how freelancing in the game industry works.
Freelancers take jobs months, or sometimes years, before a project is completed. They are paid to do a single specific job (illustrations, renders, graphic design, etc). They have zero control over the product itself. They have no more involvement with the production of the product or the finances of the company than Kickstarter backers do.
Freelancers often have no info about a project other than what is provided by the client. All they know is that they've been offered a paying job. Sometimes they're not even aware of what kind of game they're working on (Board game? Miniatures game? Card game?), the publisher of the game or even the name of the game. Sometimes work is commissioned for one game and then used for another. Usually work is commissioned months, or sometimes years, before the game is complete and ready to launch. Sometimes work never gets used at all.
Here's something you probably don't know. Game companies often stiff freelancers, and either don't pay them for competed work, or only pay part of what was promised, or hold back payment for months or even years. This is super common, and even happens with large companies like Wizards of the Coast and Fantasy Flight. So if you're sore about not getting what you paid for, know that the freelance community (the people who make the games you love) has been getting the short end of the stick since before you started gaming. Because of this freelancers are very skittish about who we work with. However if a company has a history of paying freelancers without bs they're usually a safe bet to do work for (and from what I heard, at least before the last round of Kickstarters, SPM paid its freelancers pretty reliably). And no freelancer would expect a company thats actually paying its people to not be able to produce their game. Usually its the other way around. A company will rip off the freelancers in order to get its game out the door.
Freelancers have no way of knowing if the client they're working for is planning to rip off their kickstarter backers (usually we're not even aware of whether a project has been crowdfunded. Often our part happens before that). Freelancers don't know if the client they're working for has secretly run out of money and has no way of delivering their product. Like every employee in every industry, freelancers assume that the people who are paying them are actually trying to run a legitimate business and create a successful product. Even today a Freelancer contacted by Ninja Division would have no reason to turn down work, as long as there was a guarantee of pay. I mean, if a flailing business that is struggling to deliver products wants to hire me to draw some mecha-catgirls for them, why would I say no, as long as the pay is guaranteed?
The idea that freelancers should be in any way held responsible for Ninja Division and SPM's mess is ridiculous. Telling people to boycott a freelancer or go after them is gross. If thats your position you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and should really stop posting on the matter.
I would have thought that boycotting Kickstarter would be a better bet if you want to go after third parties for misguided vengeqance. They were the ones who enabled Ninja Division to get into this state after all. Or dakkadakka or any gaming news site, podcast, FB group, etc.
jake wrote: As a freelancer who works in the gaming industry I find the idea of going after freelancers because games they worked on didn't get funded to be absolutely insane. It also suggests a huge misunderstanding of how freelancing in the game industry works....snip...
Exalted. Well said, and completely true.
And just in case there's some confusion about my previous post, I most certainly was not suggesting vilifying freelancers. They have no direct impact on how a project is handled, and if they got paid in a timely manner by the company, well, of course they'll probably keep working for them. If they didn't, then they likely won't keep working for that company.
Now, I did say that reputation could get around, and it is possible that some freelancers who continue to do work for known bad companies (companies that continually shaft Kickstarter backers, customers, etc.), then yeah, other companies might not want that association. At the same time, most companies aren't terribly transparent on work done by freelancers, so it's not going to be "common knowledge" who worked on what in most cases.
And as I said in my previous post, which may have been worded poorly on my part and thus misinterpreted, end-consumers not only can't really have much direct impact on freelancers, but it really shouldn't even be a consideration, IMO, for them in the vast majority of cases. Now, sure, I could see some form of avoiding a particular freelancer's work for whatever company hires them if it's something like the freelancer is a known sexual abuser or the like, but that is most certainly not the same ballpark as "Bob the Freelancer did art for Shady Company years ago, and Shady Company shafted me so I'm never buying any game that Bob has done any freelance work for." The later is stupid.
There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
I think it's reasonable to remember that Soda Pop Miniatures, at the start of at least the Super Dungeon Legends KS, was doing well and had delivered on previous projects. They were not nearly as shady as we have come to find them to be now. Things changed between now and then and holding independent contractors responsible for the actions of a future screw up seems like a bit much.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole. Also, I'm astounded that someone angry about not getting their man-dollies going after an artist for being paid to assist in the creation of man-dollies. If you blast everyone for working with SPM after gak started going off the rails, how would you expect them to ever fix it? Or is irrational bitterness all you want at this stage?
At the time Legends was launched, SDE was fine, having delivered Forgotten King (though Robotech hadn't yet been completed, but Palladium).
By the time SPM had unilaterally cut off refunds (March 23, 2018), it was obvious to everyone that they weren't delivering on their promises.
As of their last series of Updates outlining that they are at least $1M in the hole with no way out, it's not reasonable to believe that any new funds will help existing backers, but only add to the number of things SPM is failing to deliver. Enabling a known bad actor doesn't deserve support.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.
I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.
He just wants to prove he’s right after what? Two years or more of saying they are going out of business? Like most small companies last as long as ND/SPM have.
JohnHwangDD wrote: At the time Legends was launched, SDE was fine, having delivered Forgotten King (though Robotech hadn't yet been completed, but Palladium).
By the time SPM had unilaterally cut off refunds (March 23, 2018), it was obvious to everyone that they weren't delivering on their promises.
As of their last series of Updates outlining that they are at least $1M in the hole with no way out, it's not reasonable to believe that any new funds will help existing backers, but only add to the number of things SPM is failing to deliver. Enabling a known bad actor doesn't deserve support.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.
I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.
JohnHwangDD wrote: At the time Legends was launched, SDE was fine, having delivered Forgotten King (though Robotech hadn't yet been completed, but Palladium).
By the time SPM had unilaterally cut off refunds (March 23, 2018), it was obvious to everyone that they weren't delivering on their promises.
As of their last series of Updates outlining that they are at least $1M in the hole with no way out, it's not reasonable to believe that any new funds will help existing backers, but only add to the number of things SPM is failing to deliver. Enabling a known bad actor doesn't deserve support.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
When everyone tells you you're wrong, maybe stop doubling down. You also enabled them to do shady gak, by being a previous customer, if you want to continue going down this stupid rabbit hole.
I have disavowed them and refuse to do further business with them. I'm clean.
Removed - BrookM
Removed - if you cannot reply in a polite manner in compliance with Rule #1, then don't reply at all please
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
Wrong. None of them "enabled" anything bad here. Artist were paid for their work. That's 100% fine. Ninja Division lied to their backers about their lousy financial management and ran project after project hoping one would make it big enough to solve all their financial woes. When somebody at a party hits you in the face, you don't start throwing punches at everyone else in the room because you see their presence as "enabling" the jerk who hit you. Attacking innocent people who only contributed to the art, and had nothing to do with the failure of these kickstarters, makes you the guy with the Death Star, not them. They didn't hurt anyone, and you're trying to hurt them. Not cool.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
Wrong. None of them "enabled" anything bad here. Artist were paid for their work. That's 100% fine. Ninja Division lied to their backers about their lousy financial management and ran project after project hoping one would make it big enough to solve all their financial woes. When somebody at a party hits you in the face, you don't start throwing punches at everyone else in the room because you see their presence as "enabling" the jerk who hit you. Attacking innocent people who only contributed to the art, and had nothing to do with the failure of these kickstarters, makes you the guy with the Death Star, not them. They didn't hurt anyone, and you're trying to hurt them. Not cool.
Except I'm talking about actions going forward, not what happened in the past.
I'm not attacking anyone. I'm simply refusing to support anyone who is going to keep doing business with SPM/ND. If they want to keep partnering with SPM/ND, that's a decision that should be made with the understanding that some people will boycott you for doing so.
If you personally want to support them, that's your choice.
I won't.
That's not an attack. That's a personal choice in how I choose to spend my money, who I believe deserves that money.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
Wrong. None of them "enabled" anything bad here. Artist were paid for their work. That's 100% fine. Ninja Division lied to their backers about their lousy financial management and ran project after project hoping one would make it big enough to solve all their financial woes. When somebody at a party hits you in the face, you don't start throwing punches at everyone else in the room because you see their presence as "enabling" the jerk who hit you. Attacking innocent people who only contributed to the art, and had nothing to do with the failure of these kickstarters, makes you the guy with the Death Star, not them. They didn't hurt anyone, and you're trying to hurt them. Not cool.
Except I'm talking about actions going forward, not what happened in the past.
I'm not attacking anyone. I'm simply refusing to support anyone who is going to keep doing business with SPM/ND. If they want to keep partnering with SPM/ND, that's a decision that should be made with the understanding that some people will boycott you for doing so.
If you personally want to support them, that's your choice.
I won't.
That's not an attack. That's a personal choice in how I choose to spend my money, who I believe deserves that money.
Is SPM/ND still hiring freelancers NOW? Probably not as they have said that they don’t have funds to deliver. Just because it’s obvious to YOU(who has been droning on and on for a looooooong time about them going out of business without having any actual financial knowledge of their fiscal wellbeing), doesn’t mean that a freelancer should believe your insight, just like plenty of others here on dakkadakka didn’t follow your financial advice. Hurray for you and your incredible foresight. Is that what you wanted to hear? Enough already. People are out money, I get that you are too, but enough. You are not the caped crusader any of us want or deserve. Let’s free up all the threads from this nonsense and start looking at ways for people to recoupe their losses, or at least see what the next steps are. Trying to get back at freelancers for earning a paycheck when all they are concerned about is if there are funds to cover their wages is pointless. It’s just bringing out the worst in everyone.
If he was you can hardly fault the guy for being smart enough for pull out. The rest of us got in too deep and got lured by the fantasy, didn't pull out and now we are stuck paying for it.
jake wrote:As a freelancer who works in the gaming industry I find the idea of going after freelancers because games they worked on didn't get funded to be absolutely insane. It also suggests a huge misunderstanding of how freelancing in the game industry works.
As a freelancer myself, I can attest to most if not all jake has stated.
JohnHwangDD wrote:There is a lack of understanding in many of these replies.
Funny you say that.
If Bob is enabling Shady Company to do more shady things, then Bob is part of the problem and we shouldn't be upset when he gets blown up along with everyone else working on the the second Death Star.
Now change "company" for "country" and see where that gets you. What would you think if, say, someone decided to "not be upset" when/if the USA blows up along with everyone else in it because well, they decided to vote for that guy after all? (this is an example meant to be kinda tongue in cheek, please guys, take it as such). Because you're basically talking about the same level of responsibility here.
I still don't think John understands what a freelancer is, what freelancers do and how it all works. Or he does, and just doesn't care. Not only does boycotting projects that former Ninja Division freelancers worked on potentially hurt people who were not involved with this fiasco in any way, but it also just doesn't make any sense. Why try to punish someone who wasn't involved?
John keeps saying that people who choose to continue to associate with Ninja Division as freelancers should be punished, but why? If ND came to me and said "we're finishing up our kickstarter projects, but to do that we need to hire an artist to produce X number of illustrations", why should I be punished for taking that job? Why should a sculptor? Why should a graphic designer? I mean, if Ninja Division hires a manufacturer to produce the rest of the models they owe people, is John going to start claiming that everyone should boycott that manufacturer? Boycott the printer that produces the rulebooks. Boycott USPS for shipping them?
And as ridiculous as a boycott is, that actually might hurt some poor freelancer. Some guy who did nothing wrong at all might end up getting turned away from a job because someone running a gaming Kickstarter saw his name mentioned here and doesn't want to hire someone to work on their game for fear of internet trolls crapping all over their project.
I know John's passionate about this, but a lot of us were ripped off (and didn't get our money back, unlike John), and we're not trying to hurt innocent people who are already working in a crappy industry that underpays them (or often doesn't pay at all). I think its time the mods here told John to knock it off.
angel of death 007 wrote: The rest of us got in too deep and got lured by the fantasy, didn't pull out and now we are stuck paying for it.
Angel of Death 007 speaks wise words here so please all listen good. "If you don't pull out, then you'll be stuck paying for it"
Heed those words of wisdom. Unfortunately, I didn't, and now I'm married with 2 Children. I'm in about $250 on Legends and around $400 on Relic Knights. No one should be witch hunting anyone other than SPM themselves. If that was the case, I'd be flying out to Canada to have a word with Marie-Claude Bourbonnais for being on SPM's payroll and making her Cosplay outfits. To be fair though, if I met her in the flesh, the last thing I'd be talking to her about is SPM's mismanagement of $$$ on a Kickstarter, although probably $$$$ would eventually enter into our conversation
I could deal with the mismanagement, what I can't deal with is the lies told by SPM to claw additional $$$ from their loyal backers and fans. Taking Shipping Costs from backers because the Product was ready to ship when the reality was that it hadn't even been fully developed, let alone manufactured. Anyone who backed their KS has lost all their $$$ and will recieve nothing. Proof of that happened the other year with Spartan Games.
Last year when Spartan Games folded they wee running x1 Kickstarter and mid way through the delivery of another. As soon as they folded, anyone who hadn't received their pledges received nothing. Even when their IP was bought by Warcradle Studios, they bought all the IP for the stuff released through the KS, they didn't buy the liability to complete delivery of it. So anyone hoping that some savious may come along and buy SPM IP, they are not going to then lose £1M fufulling multiple KS that they don't actually need to forfill.
Also look at PRODOS / Acheon Studios. AVP released to retail, now on it's 2nd edition, and still, KS Backers from 2013 haven't recieved their pledges. And they've not got a leg to stand on, tough. I was one of those, although after much negotiation I've received my pledge in full, many haven't.
We are continuing to work on solutions - seems when it rains it pours, but in all honesty, our silence has been a horrid void for creating speculation. We got smashed coming out of Gencon last year with finance issues, we had a package lined up to move everything forward, and it got shot out from underneath us before the end of the year. At no time were we in a good spot to share anything with so much uncertainty - and for that hesitance, I apologize.
Our days are now filled with hopeful and substantive discussions with outside partners to help us move things forward, and AS SOON as I have verifiable news to keep you guys in the loop, we will be right here talking about it.
Just wanted to pop in and say hi.
As we work on solution, please note -our goals are quite simple:
Unless we come in and say otherwise, we are pursuing a FULL delivery of the KS, miniatures and everything you pledged for. It is very important to us, and to you.
I guess one way to get moneys to offload tons of stuff to Miniaturemarket.com, they just got these in yesterday I believe as clearance items.
Obviously a restock and straight to the clearance bins.
If nothing else that cash boost will cover their payroll for a few weeks as they milk this along.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: That's some bs witch hunt logic man. Let's start a boycott at ND's favorite local fast food chain and dox their delivery drivers. What scum, taking money for a job done! /S
I'm out money from their crap KS's, but no one should begrudge a freelancer taking a paying gig. They worked for someone incompetent. That's probably most of us lol. Also, to compare ND's failure to make your man-dollies to apartheid is flat out offensive. Be a fething grown up and get some perspective.
It's truly been ridiculous with some people for a long time - even well before it was apparent things had totally gone off the rails at SP/ND. I'm out my pledge too - and it sucks. But anything Soda Pop did was out of a mix of human error (total feature bloat when they decided to split the game into 3 games) and bad luck (Deke having a heart attack) and not any sort of malfeasance. And while I wouldn't back another SP kickstarter - they don't deserve near the level of hate and vitriol they get for it. A lot of kickstarters have failed and a lot of backers have not gotten their goods. They got in over their heads and they made some bad decisions - they didn't take the money and run off and buy a yacht. People need to get over their "moral" crusade.
I would usually agree. It's a risk you always take when you back on Kickstarter. The reason I disagree in this instance is a very specific event: they told backers to pay for shipping as the product was ready to ship. It wasn't. It didn't exist. That's not okay. That's not taking a risk with Kickstarter. That's straight up fraud. It's obtaining money by deception. I don't see how that can be argued any other way.
As both a freelancer and a consumer, I think the idea of retaliating against freelancers is just absurd. There are pretty much two cases where I think freelancers should be held accountable for something like this:
-They know the company is unethical with their consumers etc., in which case they probably shouldn't be working with them anyways (I don't, as much because I'm protecting myself and don't want to be on the other end either as it is because of any solidarity). But, that also assumes a fair amount of rigor from someone who's probably just trying to pay for rent., since 9/10 freelancers are pretty unknown and it's hardly a glamorous or lucrative business.
-Their failure to deliver directly contributed to the company's failures... but this would be really difficult to tell from the outside, unless some parties are far more transparent than is probably wise.
Relic Knight update, full pdf to download for v2.0
note it expires on 7th May so if you want it download it soon
Greetings and happy weekend everyone,
We have been moving projects along, and while we continue the slow process of stoking our engines again, we wanted to give all of you access to a full PDF zip file with everything you need to play a full version of Relic Knights 2.0 right away.
This link will be open until May 7, 2019 to download.
Download the file and unpack the contents. There you will find the following: •Relic Knights 2.0 Digest rulebook •Full set of esper cards for print and play •Foldable Terrain from the core box to print and assemble •A FULL set of unit cards featuring ALL the factions and units from the starter set and the main game. The new cards and some new artwork will be hidden in amongst the content •A FULL set of print and play unit POGS to represent units and miniatures to try out and play with any unit combination and cadre build
Please check it out, we are proud of the work we have done so far. We continue to press on with our efforts to get al backers fulfilled as soon as possible. But want to be able to enjoy some of this content in an easy to consume package until your rewards arrive.
In May, Ninja Division, in efforts to add to our strategy of continuing to pull together resources, and to do a little good in the world, will be offering up some of our older games for a digital campaign on Humble Bundle. We will share more information as we get closer, and look forward to bringing more eyes to this product community as we get closer.
Why have a download link that expires? That makes no sense unless they've sold the IP to someone else, who thus would want distribution of things stopped. And somehow, I don't see anyone buying the 'hot' property of Relic Knights...
NOTE: the stuff below isn't directly done by Soda Pop, but since it's licenced from their main property, Super Dungeon Explore i'm posting it here
The Super Dungeon Explore novels from future house publishing and associated limited edition minis are now up for pre-order
while the minis were designed by Soda Pop they're not doing the manufacture (so no need to worry on that account)
$85 for the full set as ebooks, more if you want paperbacks, you have to get the books as well as the minis, but you can get extra sets of the minis (ie 1 set of books, multiple sets of minis)
I'm actually way more interested in reading the Midnight Queen book than owning any of the minis. I really liked where that was going, even if the kickstarter spoiled it.... in so many meanings... :(
All ninja division accounts should be done, use the forgot password option the first time you try and log in
NOT all soda pop accounts are done (yet) so you may get a 'no account found with that email address' when you use the forgot password option, if so just make a new account with the same email address as your old soda pop one and they'll automatically merge them when they bring the old one across
The masterclass resin minis are back spoiler as there are a lot of images
Spoiler:
they've also got a sale running to 6th May on some of their other stuff (worth checking elsewhere to compare prices on these as they're not the fire sale prices Miniature Market has had recently) plus some Backspindle Games titles
Note that the suggested payment method is Paypal so you should be protected if nothing shows up, given the financial state of Ninja Division is fragile I'd say you'd want to be certain your protected in this way whatever method you choose
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Greetings Ninjas,
As many of you know, this has been a hard couple of years for Ninja Division. Beset by delays, finance issues, and interruptions to our Kickstarter projects, we are hard-set on combining all of our skills and resources to see these projects through to completion.
While we work to reorganize and secure the outside resources we need to begin the mass production of our Kickstarter projects we have had many backers ask us how they can help.
Already, a number of you have provided valuable insight and service towards accomplishing our reorganization goals, and we thank you tremendously! But, we also need to continue to raise the extra capital necessary to get things moving again, outside our ongoing work to secure investors. We also want to provide you with new and awesome products.
To that end, we are renewing the Masterclass Miniatures line. Further, we are excited to announce that ALL Masterclass sales will exclusively go to fund the following goals:
1. Maintain Stock of Masterclass Miniatures
We will focus on keeping a regular stock of Masterclass Miniatures. Strong selling Masterclass Miniatures will remain “evergreen”. Less popular miniatures will be retired. (Don’t worry, if that happens, we’ll make sure to give you a heads up!).
2. New Monthly Masterclass releases
Our goal is to release at least two Masterclass miniatures per month. Releases will be a mix of regular release and limited edition miniatures.
3. Regular Releases
Regular release miniatures will move into our permanent range and we will maintain stock as outlined above.
Proceeds from regular release Masterclass Miniatures will go towards implementing the reorganization and overhead of Ninja Division, with a priority on continuing constant releases for the Masterclass line. These priorities are: art, sculpting, layout, tooling, manufacturing, packaging and print, shipping, updating/replacing molds, warehousing, and webhosting.
4. Limited Edition
Limited edition miniatures will be available in limited quantities or only during a specific sales window (e.g. 750 quantity, one month only, etc).
100% of the proceeds from Limited Edition Masterclass Miniatures will be locked in the bank and assigned to specific goals to help move us towards Kickstarter fulfillment.
After setting each goal, we will keep you informed of the status of the funds we are raising towards the goal, and then once finished, we will deploy that element of the Kickstarter. We will then assign the next goal.
Our first goal is to clear our outstanding debt with our primary Super Dungeon Masterclass manufacturers so that we can get this engine started.
Super Dungeon x Relic Knights Masterclass Upcoming Releases
We have many exciting Masterclass Miniatures lined up that we had diligently worked on before we had to put on the brakes and begin reorganization. This means we have a deep pool of sculpts and concepts to draw upon to help jump-start this process. We will be starting with Super Dungeon models, but we have great plans for fans of Relic Knights, Rail Raiders, and more!
Our first releases are three exciting Super Dungeon x Relic Knights chibi miniatures. These will both be Limited Edition Leopold Magnus and Bang-Bang will be available this week! Tahariel will be available next month.
We are happy to announce a new shipping option for our EU ninjas. Starting today EU customers will be able to select "EU Shipping from UK" as an option during checkout.
When you make your order, the website will calculate your shipping cost to include the actual cost of shipping, plus an allowance for VAT and import fees to ship your package to you from our UK hub. This way, when you make an order you will be able to see all of your costs upfront and be able to make an informed purchase.
Please note that if your post charges additional fees for packages coming from the UK, we cannot account for those costs. However, this new option should allow the vast majority of our EU customers to receive your packages with no surprise expenses.
We will do our best to keep a regular inventory of our most popular items in stock at the UK hub. Each month, Ninja Division will send new inventory to the hub of these items, as well as Limited Edition orders, and any other items needed to fulfill more unique orders that chose the new shipping option.
The hub will then ship EU orders from their fulfillment center in the UK.
We hope that our EU ninjas will find this new option helpful (and cost-saving!). If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us at info@ninjadivision.com.
Now — on to Australia!
good news for now, we'll have to see how Brexit goes to find out whether it remains good for all of the EU
More boldface lies... After months of both Future House Publishing and Ninja Division saying they were not in any way involved in the production of FHPs miniatures, ND says it is a lie.
Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Soda Pop Miniatures
To clear up a few things that are being speculated on -
Future House is managing the the sale and distribution of the miniatures associated with the preorder we are doing. We are under contract, we get a royalty on sales, and we are ensuring that the sculpting quality, and the receiving manufacturer is approved by us to deliver you a product that we would feel comfortable producing ourselves.
Masterclass isnt for everyone - but they are high quality resin miniatures for collectors and painters, and gamers get access to new heroes and monsters with new rules and cards to play super dungeon with. Will it solve all the things? NOPE - will it be part of a bigger plan we are enacting to start bringing in small but consistent revenues to support the growth of the brand and reinforce with you guys that we can be a trusted partner - while we are delayed horridly on the KS, we are in fact moving behind the scenes to pull things together and get this delivered... and as soon as possible. You will be the FIRST ones to know.
If you are making a purchase from the website - you are purchasing physical inventory, it does not sell if it is not there. So, anyone, though welcome to question this, will be happy when their products show up reliably - packed and shipped by me and Deke personally while we work on other lines of business to bring SDE to reality.
This is not a "GIMME MORE MONEY" - we are providing new products and allocated resources from their sale to support our efforts to move this KS forward with our other efforts.
- Ninja John
They had FHP do a pre-order, took the money from the pre-order, made masterclass models and are now selling those retail while we 'wait' for the pre-order.
And the Masterclass will pay off debt from the US-based resin for masterclass. Well, the only possible debt they need to pay off is the Future House publishing models and these new masterclass. Neither of which are Kickstarter products. Right now, all the KS products seem to be Archon produced.
No sign of the WotF masterclass miniatures in all this.
Lies on top of lies. Zero progress or plan...
Oh, and the new masterclass models are now 25$ per 28mm hero. 5$ more than the last round, and 10-15$ more than the same models in 2017.
If SPM is only involved in the approval process of the FHP stuff then there was no lies. I can't see how anyone would expect SPM to be 100% out of that process outside of just wanting to find a reason to be angry. As long as SPM doesn't get money outside of their royalties and FHP deals with stocking and shipping there's nothing nefarious going on.
The current prepainted minis using the same sculpts that backers are waiting for are/were made by Ninja Division. He paizo rep statement regarding how this affects Ninja Division.
Paizo Employee Sara Marie Customer Service & Community Manager Wednesday, 10:56 am
Folks, Just a heads up, WizKids has issued a press release regarding WizKids Starfinder Battles Miniatures. We understand this may raise some questions regarding the status of the Ninja Division Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures.
Here is where we (still) sit with that. Ninja Division is late on their Kickstarter, but they are working on a means to fulfill their commitments. We are supporting them as best we can, as our goal is to help them fulfill their Kickstarter, but we cannot discuss anything that might be in progress.
Ninja Division retains a license to create unpainted Starfinder miniatures in order to be able to complete their Kickstarter obligations, and none of that changes with this new partnership.
It’s not unusual to have multiple miniatures partners. Paizo has worked with Reaper and WizKids on Pathfinder miniatures for years. We know there may be additional questions that this raises for you, but we do not currently have any additional information to provide.
And the response later in the same thread of one of the Paizo executives who during the Starfinder campaign was iirc vocal in his confidence with ND/SP fulfilling their obligations in response to folks bringing up their concerns.
Erik Mona Chief Creative Officer, Publisher Thursday, 06:13 pm | Flag | List | Reply
Folks,
I wanted to drop by to share a conundrum, and to share a bit of my perspective on affairs of the last week.
The conundrum is this: Throughout this process with Ninja Division, but after we realized they were going to have significant difficulties pulling this project across the finish line, there have been numerous behind-the-scenes developments or potential fixes that we have heard about, but that have not come to fruition.
That sort of thing puts us in a difficult place regarding communications. Do we share our sense of hope, only to have it dashed again when something doesn't come through? That's certainly a dilemma that has played into us not being as frequent with updates in the past as we should have been.
I don't want to get people's hopes up, even if I see signs of incremental progress behind the scenes. I hope you all can understand that when we make an announcement regarding this project, we want to be EXTRA CERTAIN that we understand the details and have faith that they are going to occur before sharing them in public.
So I don't have details to convey, and I don't want to give the impression that a solution is in sight or that it looks like the project is back on the road or whatever.
But I DO want to share that, behind the scenes, we have seen a LOT of evidence--especially since the GAMA Trade Show--that Ninja Division is actively working to move the project forward and find solutions for their many difficulties.
I have proof that these guys ARE trying, and some of that is encouraging. I don't want to say more than that, but I do want you guys to know and understand that much at least.
Thanks for your continuing patience, or at least for your continuing attention.
The comment about miniature Market buying all the stock from Ninja Division was correct. MM just announced they're having a huge ND sale starting tomorrow.
What a cluster f*ck. The STarfinder miniatures was the first kickstarter Ive ever backed and now I might be out $200. How is this even legal? Kickstarter is basically a venture capitalist website without any of the financial oversight and regulation.
Ive tried contacting them to no avail. I cant dispute the charge on my CC as its aged out.
Has anyone had any luck getting a refund on the Starfinder kickstarter? If so what steps or contact info did you take?
Dynas wrote: What a cluster f*ck. The STarfinder miniatures was the first kickstarter Ive ever backed and now I might be out $200. How is this even legal? Kickstarter is basically a venture capitalist website without any of the financial oversight and regulation.
Ive tried contacting them to no avail. I cant dispute the charge on my CC as its aged out.
Has anyone had any luck getting a refund on the Starfinder kickstarter? If so what steps or contact info did you take?
You won't have any luck if you've already tried with your credit card and they refused. Kickstarter doesn't care and will let them do anything they want up to and including forming a "new" company with the exact same people doing the exact same jobs and attempt to crowdfund additional projects while previous ones languish. You can complain to your state attorney general and you'll be lucky if you get ND to copy/paste the response they already gave to an attorney general in response to backer complaints and that's assuming that the AG actually bothers sending out a form letter to investigate it (unlikely). You can take them to small claims court but typically you have to file those cases in the defendant's local area so unless you're in Iowa iirc or somewhere ND travels to regularly on business (like Indiana for gencon) where you can serve them as they're in the area you're out of luck there as well. Five thousand Palladium/Ninja Divsion backers were in the same boat with ND's first project, the Robotech Tactics game, and we were fortunately to get pennies on the dollar (literally 12 cents value on my remaining wave 2 pledge value dollars... I calculated it out) for remaining base pledge wave 2 rewards. You're literally at the mercy of ND and whatever they can/will/feel like doing unless you're willing to throw more good money after bad in suing them. It's the reason I haven't crowdfunded after my first campaign (Robotech) for more than $1.00 just to comment.
It's not going to be what you want to hear, and it's not going to be palatable, but your best chance to get anything is to support and promote ND (or at least keep quite about them) in the hope that they can pull themselves back together
If they go bankrupt they owe far more than they can pay back, and people with unsecured debt like KS backers will end up with nothing
at least they are still trying (and believe me it would have been far, far easier for them to have given up and dumped the lot and got jobs doing something else.... or even non management roles in the games industry as employees)
KS is not a store, you can loose out and get nothing (as I've done before, and I suspect I may with ND too), it's not fun, it's frustrating but its how crowdfunding works
So it sounds like this is a fraudulent company for sure. Perhaps a class action lawsuit is needed. I know I will never back another kickstarter ever again.
A quick search of failed kickstarters lawsuit class action etc...
Reveals this is apparently rally common among games and miniature kickstarters.
Yeah... that robotech class action rally cry was doomed from the start and amounted to nothing in the end. As for ND being fraudulent, you'd have to prove that they had the intent to take your money and not give you anything in return. Incompetent and deceitful though are pretty much proven at this point seeing as how they knew they were in dire financial straits and didn't disclose it during the campaign nor sequester the money they raised for the project only specifically for completion of the project. ND/SP didn't get screwed over by another company nor did they suffer some sort of natural disaster or act of god that cost them dearly; they're in a hole completely of their own making based on the limited information we have and backers are paying the price.
At least with the fire sale being run by MM, it's unlikely that ND/SP will get any funds from it directly (although large orders might convince MM to restock again from them admittedly). That's not the case with the AVP fire sale by Prodos now that they're not renewing the license; in that case, you're directly rewarding a company that for years hasn't shipped backer rewards that were in stock/available for sale for miniatures that they'd otherwise have to destroy or sell in bulk for pennies in a few weeks/months. At least with AVP, I actually liked the minis but refuse to reward them nonetheless. With ND/SP, I have no interest in their chibi items and my following them was/is purely for Robotech and Starfinder respectively.
Dynas wrote: Perhaps a class action lawsuit is needed.
That would be the very definition of throwing good money after bad.
The typical reason to file class action is to get money; however, it is obvious that SPM/ND is "judgement proof". Assuming that you won, and got through the motions and appeals, SPM/ND aren't sitting on Millions of dollars in cash or other assets that you could have the court freeze and seize to repay backers.
The only reason to take SPM/ND to court is to:
a) get a statement that Consumer Law applies to Kickstarter contracts;
b) force SPM/ND to open their books for forensic accounting; and/or
c) get a bigger "my bad" statement from SPM/ND management
But the chance that you can take SPM/ND to court and recover your cash and other fees is less than zero - there is no money to be gotten there, only "satisfaction".
Monkeysloth wrote: The comment about miniature Market buying all the stock from Ninja Division was correct. MM just announced they're having a huge ND sale starting tomorrow.
Flesh Hounds counts as for ~$1.25 each? Don't mind if I do!
What's really annoying is that I really liked that angel themed faction in Relic Knights (Void I think they were called? ) and chances are good I'll never get them. I really liked that funky mecha they had, too.
Barzam wrote: What's really annoying is that I really liked that angel themed faction in Relic Knights (Void I think they were called? ) and chances are good I'll never get them. I really liked that funky mecha they had, too.
Prismatic, IIRC. I should do something with mine. LOL
