I'm thinking that PB has finally severed all ties with Ninja Division. I know Ninja Division does a lot of manufacturing overseas, and I imagine that PB was depending on them to take care of the manufacturing process. It's been a show from the beginning, and if PB has finally removed Ninja Division from the game, then yeah, more and more delays, and who knows what will happen for the future of Robotech. And hey! PB/Kevin will just be able to blame everyone else if it fails. Seems like he is great at laying out the blame and fault in others and accepts no responsibility for any failures, only success. Guess he's read one of those $0.10 "How to Manage" books. "A good manager never accepts failure and instead finds the faults and failures in others/the process/idea/whatever". He forgot to read the next paragraph about why he is looking for those failures and how to fix them.
I loved Batteletech "back in the day". Then I discovered a lot of other table top games, and suddenly, Battletech wasn't such a great game anymore. The game play is very, very clunky, slow, and I spend far too much time staring at my mech sheet and not enough time looking at the board. The game just feels way too static, and the mech designs are way, way outdated. Or, I should say, the Innersphere designs are. The Clan mechs look great. So yeah, when I discovered Heavy Gear, and later CAV, well, it was so long Battletech.
Then Catalyst got the IP when FASA folded, and I had a lot of hopes for a new system. Instead, they just "cleaned up" the same old clunky, fill in the dot sheets and released the game again. Alphastrike reinvigorated the game for me, but it's just a little too abstract. I love how fast it plays, how damage works, the fact that I can play with several lances or stars at the same time in about the same amount of time as a two mech match has a lot of appeal to me. What I miss though, is saying "Suck LRM, Freebirth!" as I shoot my LRM 20. Or shout out "Bullseye!" when I get a headshot with my Gauss Rifle. Instead, all the weapons on my mech are condensed into an attack and damage stat, and I miss that aspect of Battletech. Alphastrike is a much better, tighter rule set.
Heavy Gear these days is... well, a mess. I have not looked at the "new" beta rules in several months, and have no idea how far along they are. I know that I gave up on them when the beta rules came out mid-2014 and were hopelessly, needlessly complex and with change for the sake of change being the design idea behind the new system, rather then over hauling and streamlining the old system. It's been a while, so maybe I'll wonder on over the their forums and see how it's going.
Tamwulf wrote: I'm thinking that PB has finally severed all ties with Ninja Division. I know Ninja Division does a lot of manufacturing overseas, and I imagine that PB was depending on them to take care of the manufacturing process. It's been a show from the beginning, and if PB has finally removed Ninja Division from the game, then yeah, more and more delays, and who knows what will happen for the future of Robotech. And hey! PB/Kevin will just be able to blame everyone else if it fails. Seems like he is great at laying out the blame and fault in others and accepts no responsibility for any failures, only success. Guess he's read one of those $0.10 "How to Manage" books. "A good manager never accepts failure and instead finds the faults and failures in others/the process/idea/whatever". He forgot to read the next paragraph about why he is looking for those failures and how to fix them.
I think this is why they are going thru a manufacturing broker to find a factory to do their job, most miniature makers find a factory early in their career and usually stick with it, which begs the question is who is doing the sculpts? or is PB going to go with the old sculpts done by ND? you know the ones they said needed retweeking and such?
Maybe they contracted it out that Magic Mad Mike guy from their forums to do it because he makes CG paper minis for them? Or the guy that did the early PS2 cutscene quality cover for them a couple of years back?
warboss wrote: Maybe they contracted it out that Magic Mad Mike guy from their forums to do it because he makes CG paper minis for them? Or the guy that did the early PS2 cutscene quality cover for them a couple of years back?
Spoiler:
What was the title of that book? How not to do firearms safety?
warboss wrote: Maybe they contracted it out that Magic Mad Mike guy from their forums to do it because he makes CG paper minis for them? Or the guy that did the early PS2 cutscene quality cover for them a couple of years back?
It's made from Daz 3d poser models, basically a file dump site that you can get all sorts of pre-built (and largely crap) files from and use the software to pose them and place them backgrounds. Some of the 3d mesh files are ok, but most of them appear way too stiff and unnatural unless you do a lot of clean up work and modification. It's the 3d equivillant of those wooden pose dolls they use in life drawing classes to teach basic form and structure. It serves a purpose but the quality is kinda meh and most pieces as a result look amateurish. Plus they tend to have really crappy default lighting and texturing so it looks like video game models from the 90's.
It is an open license software so when you buy models for download you're able to use them for rendering or game content without needing to pay any royalties. Assuming he bought the models vs pirating them they run around $30-$40 each and then can be reposed and reused indefinitely, so it's a tool that can be used to keep things very cheap.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So just out of morbid curiosity, what was the last word on Wave 2?
"Blah blah blah delay blah blah Hey! Look! We made up some new models for a completely different game that we have not yet written and you will have no use for! We're opening up the Pledge Manger to purchase these exclusive limited models!"
Between the lines: We're out of money and if enough people buy these models, we can afford wave 2.
No amount of metal choppers or characters will cover the cost of Wave 2. From the number of kits I see warming the shelves of my FLGS the main problem is lack of sales through.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: With the new GHQ models coming I wonder what changed.
According to one of their cultists (don't remember which one, don't care) it turns out that their license didn't have the restrictions they thought it did. Which you would normally assume is a crock of gak, but let's face it, we're talking about the world's least competent company.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: With the new GHQ models coming I wonder what changed.
According to one of their cultists (don't remember which one, don't care) it turns out that their license didn't have the restrictions they thought it did. Which you would normally assume is a crock of gak, but let's face it, we're talking about the world's least competent company.
LOL, sounds about right.
The great Robotech/Macross/Battletech/Jetfire IPR war never ends...
Kid_Kyoto wrote: With the new GHQ models coming I wonder what changed.
According to one of their cultists (don't remember which one, don't care) it turns out that their license didn't have the restrictions they thought it did. Which you would normally assume is a crock of gak, but let's face it, we're talking about the world's least competent company.
LOL, sounds about right.
The great Robotech/Macross/Battletech/Jetfire IPR war never ends...
Really would be awesome if Sony would just come along and put a bullet in HG and BW (even if it's a golden one) once and for all.
Some art from the new Robotech Marines book hit FB today, Palladium has always used inked comic style art before which had a certain crispness to them and I was a pretty big fan of Kevin Long's stuff as it was bold and it fit the feel of the product. That style of art gave it an independent pulp comic book feel and it had a certain charm to it.
This new stuff looks to be straight up pencil work and is a mix match of Alpha and Beta parts, which IMO looks like badly half traced designs in somebodies sketch book. The line weights are random some are filled in solidly and some of it is barely a light pencil scratch making these look really unfinished and chopped together. It gives me the feeling that they are really tightening their belt and scraping the bottom of the barrel to avoid spending anything on production. It's a pretty big dive in quality from past books (which is saying a lot) and maybe gives some validity to rumors that they are flat broke and trying to saves dollars anywhere they can.
There's also one that looks an awful lot like the new super Tau titan from FW. I don't think we'd be lucky enough to see it go anywhere but OMG I'd love to see GW sue PB.
Ok, firstly, I don't actually dislike the art style on those, but the last 3 images make me wonder. I mean, they do look rather ........... Tau.
Wonder if the artist plays any WH40K?
And the weekly update is up. To the tune of
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Nothing new to report on this front for now, but we have a number of things boiling. More after Gen Con."
Well, at least they are admitting they have nothing to report, that's progress, right!
And the "number of things boiling", that wouldn't be the 5K odd backers, by any chance?
I agree that it looks like Chuck Walton plays 40k. It's not that I don't like the designs (I do) but I'll echo the previous sentiments... they feel half done and just not very robotech. They're first draft pencil sketches (maybe that's his style?... he did the robot heavy art in the Northern Gun books but I didn't buy either one or even see it ever personally) and they don't feel finished. They feel rushed like they were done last minute which given the pace of palladium production (wait 5 years... then cram everything in last minute). Also, the designs don't feel very robotech. There are some overused too common robotech design features like the alpha shoulders and less commonly the veritech forearms but they overall feel more like gundam or armored core.
Also, did any of the new cyclones or the zentraedi pods pic previews hit facebook? I'd be curious to see those as well. Ironically, if I ever ran a robotech RPG, I'd use the space cyclone rules for tau crisis suits sentinels stand ins as I don't like cyclones in space RPG campaigns.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I remember during the campaign (loo many years ago) they said theyt didn't have the rights to do APCs, tanks and other conventional vehicles.
Which seemed odd, I mean what kind of @#$% contract do they have?
They also said thet can't do character models that show the heads, only mecha and armored figures.
With the new GHQ models coming I wonder what changed.
actually we have yet to see any miniatures which show actual character faces, we saw a drawing of one, but no actual miniature.
also you noticed they have yet to show that one figure, but have shown the others, which begs the question why the secrecy over Breetai unless it doesn't show his face and the pre-orders want to cancel their order.
Maybe we wait and see if the PB's hat gets filled this Gencon so they can report they can continue with their wave 2 due to more funds?
It is a rather troubling thing: PB will not say anything, so I have nothing more I can say, but they still owe us for wave 2, but I am repeating myself...
How long can you say "we plan on getting wave 2 done" with the intent of not getting sued or nailed for spending the funds elsewhere and fully intending on not getting it done?
I thought at some point PB was not allowed to make derivative works on the Robotech license?
I thought there were some grumblings on that matter but I know in prior RPG books they had other weird hybrid mechs.
Might help them flesh-out their Invid Invasion wave of stuff if they can prove they can finish their first offering...
stanman wrote: Some art from the new Robotech Marines book hit FB today, Palladium has always used inked comic style art before which had a certain crispness to them and I was a pretty big fan of Kevin Long's stuff as it was bold and it fit the feel of the product. That style of art gave it an independent pulp comic book feel and it had a certain charm to it.
This new stuff looks to be straight up pencil work and is a mix match of Alpha and Beta parts, which IMO looks like badly half traced designs in somebodies sketch book. The line weights are random some are filled in solidly and some of it is barely a light pencil scratch making these look really unfinished and chopped together. It gives me the feeling that they are really tightening their belt and scraping the bottom of the barrel to avoid spending anything on production. It's a pretty big dive in quality from past books (which is saying a lot) and maybe gives some validity to rumors that they are flat broke and trying to saves dollars anywhere they can.
There's also one that looks an awful lot like the new super Tau titan from FW. I don't think we'd be lucky enough to see it go anywhere but OMG I'd love to see GW sue PB.
Warning much Derp ahead:
Spoiler:
umm after looking at those pics i'm thinking Gundam and or Tau and not Robotech, most of those I couldn't even see how they would transform, nor how they would even be viable options. like the Tomahawk with a hand? how is he supposed to grab something with that big cannon in the way? seriously did anyone even bother looking at those pics and asking will this work?
Talizvar wrote: Maybe we wait and see if the PB's hat gets filled this Gencon so they can report they can continue with their wave 2 due to more funds?
It is a rather troubling thing: PB will not say anything, so I have nothing more I can say, but they still owe us for wave 2, but I am repeating myself...
How long can you say "we plan on getting wave 2 done" with the intent of not getting sued or nailed for spending the funds elsewhere and fully intending on not getting it done?
I thought at some point PB was not allowed to make derivative works on the Robotech license?
I thought there were some grumblings on that matter but I know in prior RPG books they had other weird hybrid mechs.
Might help them flesh-out their Invid Invasion wave of stuff if they can prove they can finish their first offering...
something tells me sales this GenCon will not be as good as PB hopes they are, RRT is no longer new, its been out in the wild for almost a year, so hope they are not counting on the sales of those.
umm after looking at those pics i'm thinking Gundam and or Tau and not Robotech, most of those I couldn't even see how they would transform, nor how they would even be viable options. like the Tomahawk with a hand? how is he supposed to grab something with that big cannon in the way? seriously did anyone even bother looking at those pics and asking will this work?
They're destroids. The only thing they're supposed to transform into is sales.
umm after looking at those pics i'm thinking Gundam and or Tau and not Robotech, most of those I couldn't even see how they would transform, nor how they would even be viable options. like the Tomahawk with a hand? how is he supposed to grab something with that big cannon in the way? seriously did anyone even bother looking at those pics and asking will this work?
They're destroids. The only thing they're supposed to transform into is sales.
I'm talking about the Alpha monstrosities and such.
also there is the feasibility of some of those destroids like the rifleman type with the 3 cannons per arm, there is no power supply or ammo container big enough to last more then one quick burst on those things.
umm after looking at those pics i'm thinking Gundam and or Tau and not Robotech, most of those I couldn't even see how they would transform, nor how they would even be viable options. like the Tomahawk with a hand? how is he supposed to grab something with that big cannon in the way? seriously did anyone even bother looking at those pics and asking will this work?
They're destroids. The only thing they're supposed to transform into is sales.
I'm talking about the Alpha monstrosities and such.
Those alpha monstrosities ARE the destroids. They just stole the alpha's head and shouldersTM.
Talizvar wrote: Maybe we wait and see if the PB's hat gets filled this Gencon so they can report they can continue with their wave 2 due to more funds?
It is a rather troubling thing: PB will not say anything, so I have nothing more I can say, but they still owe us for wave 2, but I am repeating myself...
How long can you say "we plan on getting wave 2 done" with the intent of not getting sued or nailed for spending the funds elsewhere and fully intending on not getting it done?
I thought at some point PB was not allowed to make derivative works on the Robotech license?
I thought there were some grumblings on that matter but I know in prior RPG books they had other weird hybrid mechs.
Might help them flesh-out their Invid Invasion wave of stuff if they can prove they can finish their first offering...
OK this is going off my memory but I asked similar questions in the KS and it seemed there were 3 nos
No derived works/mecha that did not appear in the cartoon
No conventional vehicles, even if fictional ones from the cartoon
No people/faces (full armor/helmets were OK)
But who knows what's going on behind the scenes, as I said the whole Robotech/Macross etc IP situations is FUBAR and I understand there's friction between Harmony Gold (may they soon go bankrupt) and Palladium b/c HG would much rather have made a mini game themselves and feel that Palladium is abusing their RPG license.
Talizvar wrote: Maybe we wait and see if the PB's hat gets filled this Gencon so they can report they can continue with their wave 2 due to more funds?...
something tells me sales this GenCon will not be as good as PB hopes they are, RRT is no longer new, its been out in the wild for almost a year, so hope they are not counting on the sales of those.
Notice I said "hat" it will be more a donation than a sale.
The only logical thing to talk about at a GenCon is what is "new" I am sure they will get sick and tired of being asked if any new Robotech will be out... oh yeah, they will flog GHQ stuff... my bad.
Talizvar wrote: Maybe we wait and see if the PB's hat gets filled this Gencon so they can report they can continue with their wave 2 due to more funds?...
something tells me sales this GenCon will not be as good as PB hopes they are, RRT is no longer new, its been out in the wild for almost a year, so hope they are not counting on the sales of those.
Notice I said "hat" it will be more a donation than a sale.
The only logical thing to talk about at a GenCon is what is "new" I am sure they will get sick and tired of being asked if any new Robotech will be out... oh yeah, they will flog GHQ stuff... my bad.
what will we have new Robotech stuff? sure right here we have these lovely new Robotech goodies available for you to buy right now.
OK this is going off my memory but I asked similar questions in the KS and it seemed there were 3 nos
No derived works/mecha that did not appear in the cartoon
No conventional vehicles, even if fictional ones from the cartoon
No people/faces (full armor/helmets were OK)
But who knows what's going on behind the scenes, as I said the whole Robotech/Macross etc IP situations is FUBAR and I understand there's friction between Harmony Gold (may they soon go bankrupt) and Palladium b/c HG would much rather have made a mini game themselves and feel that Palladium is abusing their RPG license.
conventional vehicles is one thing since they are already vehicles existing in the public view, meanwhile you notice none of the "Official" Robotech style vehicles like the Comanchero and the Cat's Eye Recon are available, as to faces, there is no faces on any of the minis shown to date.
I need only say dice bags, T-shirts, dog tags and mouse pads.
I think the last Robotech RPG sourcebook was in 2012, the Genesis Pits book.
This long winded but interesting article I keep coming back to:
https://sites.google.com/site/pbpubprobs/ Palladium has been in a general state of decline since 2003, releasing fewer products with each passing year. Christmas Surprise Packages (<edit>and in July now!), Rifter subscription drives, Open Houses, auctions, and branded merchandise are gradually supplanting the publication of new RPG books as its primary source of revenue. It frequently resorts to self-cannibalization by reprinting, repackaging, and revising titles from its back catalogue. Perhaps the most significant challenge Palladium faces is its caricature of a release schedule. How did things go so wrong? How did it become renowned more for what it has not published, rather than what it has?
OK this is going off my memory but I asked similar questions in the KS and it seemed there were 3 nos
No derived works/mecha that did not appear in the cartoon
No conventional vehicles, even if fictional ones from the cartoon
No people/faces (full armor/helmets were OK)
But who knows what's going on behind the scenes, as I said the whole Robotech/Macross etc IP situations is FUBAR and I understand there's friction between Harmony Gold (may they soon go bankrupt) and Palladium b/c HG would much rather have made a mini game themselves and feel that Palladium is abusing their RPG license.
I think that they wrote somewhere in the recent updates or murmurs or whatever that they were able to work out some new stuff with Harmony Gold that gives PB more freedom. I think this has to do directly with the new movie deal and who has rights to do what, now. The conventional units, the Breetai with face that we are supposedly going to see, this came after the new movie deal that HG has.
Also, HG cannot do derivative works of Macross, but are free to do so with the other two series. I'm sure that's where the "no derivative work" answer comes from.
1. During the KSPB did not think they could do the vehicles. That changed later on.
2. Remember the update with the Commanchero that was promptly taken back? They will be coming out with those and more. Probably the Commanchero, Cat's Eye, Dragon II and more.
3. Not sure where we are with the faces thing. Once I have minis in hand I will let you know. I'll take some pictures and post them on my google drive for everyone. I did not have the cash to get some but someone will send me a few after we did some horse trading. Should be on the way soon with GenCon starting.
4. I think the idea of derived mecha will not matter much since parts can be made without a problem. We already have the optional arms for the Defender and the Super Stuff for the VT. Making some custom stuff available online will not be hard.
5. I really need a good stand in for a Gnerl. Any ideas?
feth you Thomas Roache, you are scum. I hope you read this,
I apologised once, you kept going. You're just as much to blame as Palladium and ND. It's not the backers fault this is so late, is it?
Actually, Tom is correct. The most annoying thing about this kickstarter is Palladium just camping there on the kickstarter without any public progress on what is already on track to be more than two years late. And, with the last update, they're actively trolling backers as well. I don't think that is what he meant though.
Joyboozer wrote: It's not the backers fault this is so late, is it?
but it is since we did not praise the game to the moon and laud its creators and buy lots more product, I had plans of buying lots more but then saw the gak we got and said forget it.
Ok, now that I've had some time to mull over the pictures, I think they are very poor designs.
Though I like the "modern" look, the destroids can be too easily mistaken for alpha/beta variants. They also look too much like Gundam designs, not Robotech.
If these were going to truly be used in the Robotech world you would want them to have a distinct design so they are NOT confused as alphas/betas. Just like you can tell that a Tomahawk is NOT a Veritech, you should be able to tell that the "new" Tomahawk is not Alpha fighter, but a non-transformable battloid. These designs just do not fit.
It's like trying to slip Star Wars style starfighters into Star Trek.
Stormonu wrote: Ok, now that I've had some time to mull over the pictures, I think they are very poor designs.
Though I like the "modern" look, the destroids can be too easily mistaken for alpha/beta variants. They also look too much like Gundam designs, not Robotech.
If these were going to truly be used in the Robotech world you would want them to have a distinct design so they are NOT confused as alphas/betas. Just like you can tell that a Tomahawk is NOT a Veritech, you should be able to tell that the "new" Tomahawk is not Alpha fighter, but a non-transformable battloid. These designs just do not fit.
It's like trying to slip Star Wars style starfighters into Star Trek.
Another swing and a miss for PB.
Agreed. However (And a big IF) these are supposed to be actual military vehicles, a comonnality of design makes sense. The more common the components, the easier they are to maintain and the higher the percentage of time you can keep them in service. Having large numbers of common components means you need more of them and economics of scale mean each component becomes cheaper.
Having said that, you could do that for the functional components and have the outer skins and armour being different to ensure they are easily differentiated on the battlefield - although that also means your enemy can easily work out which are the biggest threat and concentrate fire on those to cripple you.
Still, don't see why you have a small hand alongside a large cannon, and they certainly don't yell "Robotech" to me, think they look more "Heavy Gear" and glad they are not included in the KS, much prefer the classic designs anyway.
I was not comparing a Tomahawk to a VF-0D. I was comparing an old Tomahawk to a new one.
How many elements were common between the Spitfire MkI and the MkII, how many were still there in the MkIII and IV? I was not comparing how many elements are common between the Lightning and a Hind.
Although using common components make sense, just ripping the head off one 'vehicle' and putting it on another does not. I was talking at the component level, rather than the whole.
I was not comparing a Tomahawk to a VF-0D. I was comparing an old Tomahawk to a new one.
How many elements were common between the Spitfire MkI and the MkII, how many were still there in the MkIII and IV? I was not comparing how many elements are common between the Lightning and a Hind.
Although using common components make sense, just ripping the head off one 'vehicle' and putting it on another does not. I was talking at the component level, rather than the whole.
Edited for clarity.
whats the commonality between the old school "F" series fighters compared to the new "F" series fighters?
why does the Tomahawk resculpt have hands on the inside part of his cannon arms, whats he to grab and how? why does one of them look like an Alpha Fighter? where is the ammo/power supply to the new defenders cannons kept? in a truck it tows? since only room in the mech itself for one quick little burst.
Also whats the commonality between a Wileys and a Hummer which succeeded it?
Forar, don't forget to politely but firmly interview palladium on camera about wave 2! I suspect they'll have nothing to show for wave 2 though that is new but rather I suspect they'll just put up the same prototype minis they were showing off two years ago when they actually were visibly working on something.
Also, can someone snap a few pics both the zentraedi pods and the new cyclones in the Robotech Marines RPG book? I'm curious to see how they've changed visually.
Just for comparison, these are the Invid age destroids from the old Sentinels book. I do think the new ones look a tad better.
BTW, I'm guessing on the Defender that it's moved from ballistic ammunition to pure laser weapon powered by its main power plant - like a battlepod, which doesn't have a huge power supply for its particle cannons.
I'm sure the post-con report will be all rainbow farts ("everyone told us how much they loved the products!") and sunshine ("the booth was hopping every day!"). The reality is likely somewhere in between. If you happen to see a copy of the Robotech RPG marine book open to the pages with the zentraedi pods and/or new cyclones, I wouldn't mind a preview pic from a distance (to not make out the stats of course!).
It might mean their need of moneys is in fact quite dire. Or who knows, it might mean they finally realize that the prices they were asking for what they are offering were nuts.
It might mean their need of moneys is in fact quite dire. Or who knows, it might mean they finally realize that the prices they were asking for what they are offering were nuts.
Yeah, right.
funny thing is, even at 30% off it doesn't seem to be selling nor garnering much interest.
Asterios wrote: even the white knights have to agree this does not bode well if all of RRT is already 30% off on first day.
When all we get are prediction of "Doom!" There comes a point where things get tuned out just like Jorel and Boba. One way or another I'll get to play all three generations even if it is with standins.
It might mean their need of moneys is in fact quite dire. Or who knows, it might mean they finally realize that the prices they were asking for what they are offering were nuts.
Yeah, right.
Actually, I've heard from a good manufacturer that there are two problems. Ninja Division offered too much during the KS, at $2 or so per mini, I can see that, and they also think the add-on boxes price point should be even higher. This is from people who make miniatures now.
When all we get are prediction of "Doom!" There comes a point where things get tuned out just like Jorel and Boba. One way or another I'll get to play all three generations even if it is with standins.
While I agree that predictions of doom from the getgo are tiresome and some folks have been doing that from day KS+30, I do think that this gencon gives folks enough info to make an informed (but still subjective) opinion on the health of the game overall instead of just in their local area. We'll have the Adepticon, two gencons technically, and an open house to see what the reception is in areas of very concentrated gamers. Of course, if wave 2 immediately comes out and addresses most if not all the issues with the first wave and palladium quickly learns a whole host of new tricks on how to run their business and interact with fans, things could change... but I think once reports filter out from the con that we'll be able to make an initial informed opinion. If yet again tables are half empty and sales seem lackluster despite the discounts, it certainly won't be half glass full.
When all we get are prediction of "Doom!" There comes a point where things get tuned out just like Jorel and Boba. One way or another I'll get to play all three generations even if it is with standins.
While I agree that predictions of doom from the getgo are tiresome and some folks have been doing that from day KS+30, I do think that this gencon gives folks enough info to make an informed (but still subjective) opinion on the health of the game overall instead of just in their local area. We'll have the Adepticon, two gencons technically, and an open house to see what the reception is in areas of very concentrated gamers. Of course, if wave 2 immediately comes out and addresses most if not all the issues with the first wave and palladium quickly learns a whole host of new tricks on how to run their business and interact with fans, things could change... but I think once reports filter out from the con that we'll be able to make an initial informed opinion. If yet again tables are half empty and sales seem lackluster despite the discounts, it certainly won't be half glass full.
You also need to take in basic manufacturing and economics. Even at a discount PB will make out well selling RRT at the con.
Not a TPTB, just basing my comments on previous discussions.
Con-specific items - only appear at cons for cost reasons.
Say you, make miniature Breetai. Production costs $2. If you take it to a con, you can sell it for $5, and make $3 profit for yourself. Good!
You sell it to the distributor for $3, to make some money back. The distributor sells it to the stores for $5, so they make money on it. The store then sells it for $10, because they need to make money on stuff that sits on shelves for years.
In this case, you make $1, and the customer's paying double what he would via direct sale. Only makes sense if you figure you can sell tens of thousands ... and not even I think there's that many Breetai miniature fans out there.
If you try to manage the distribution yourself, that costs too - time, effort & shipping. And you don't actually have spare people sitting around to do that - that's why you sell to a distributor normally. Plus you're effectively eating the cost of any unsold stock, which you normally have the store owner doing. So it's not any better.
* * *
The moral of this lesson is, selling direct at cons makes
- for affordable (eg. small) production runs that a distributor wouldn't touch.
- small production runs profitable.
- cool stuff available to the fans who make an effort to go to cons, who are usually pretty darned loyal fans.
Trying to distribute the same things rapidly becomes a losing business. Sad, but that's the way it is.
Mike1975 wrote: Even at a discount PB will make out well selling RRT at the con.
I'm not claiming otherwise. It is interesting though that historically Palladium has been very proud of their NOT discounting their products except in certain rare circumstances (like grab bags where you technically don't get a guarantee you'll get anything in particular you want) and the very rare sale. Previously their gencon coupons were usually for one purchase discount or a free rifter or a lesser selling unpopular and unsupported game line like BTS, not their newest hotness. I agree that they still make a healthy profit at 30% as that is still more than they make when they go through a distributor but previously they would have been selling it at 100% as gencon (at least when I went) had a policy that companies who make the products are the only ones who sell them new at the con so there is no on site competition usualy for new products. I'm not sure if that has changed but it used to be the case. The across the board discount on their big new product line is particularly jarring and out of character for them.
Nomeny wrote: So according to the facebook page someone tried to blockade the Palladium Books booth?!
I'd put the chances of that happening at the within 98% of the probability of a certain someone suing Palladium during the last two years while making the hundreds of threats about doing so. In any case, there is a youtube video about the gencon "running of the bulls" that you should watch. Even if one person did try, it would be the dutch boy finger in the dike no matter how jabba the hutt the particular gamer was.
Nomeny wrote: So according to the facebook page someone tried to blockade the Palladium Books booth?!
I haven't heard of any planned and/or tried blockade of PB's booth, who said that? and where?
I did a quick youtube search and much to my surprise someone actually uploaded a video of it (linked below). Is that Forar? Did he mention he was going in costume?
Nomeny wrote: So according to the facebook page someone tried to blockade the Palladium Books booth?!
I haven't heard of any planned and/or tried blockade of PB's booth, who said that? and where?
I did a quick youtube search and much to my surprise someone actually uploaded a video of it (linked below). Is that Forar? Did he mention he was going in costume?
ha ha ha, but no I checked and the only mention was by that sites creator, and he said it out of the blue, no one mentioned anything about it, and I haven't even heard anything about it, except someone mentioned in the KS forums people should do it and it was laughed off, sounds like who ever runs that RRTFB page is just stirring the pot and talking out of his ass and making PB look bad, since hes a fan of PB.
It might mean their need of moneys is in fact quite dire. Or who knows, it might mean they finally realize that the prices they were asking for what they are offering were nuts.
Yeah, right.
Actually, I've heard from a good manufacturer that there are two problems. Ninja Division offered too much during the KS, at $2 or so per mini, I can see that, and they also think the add-on boxes price point should be even higher. This is from people who make miniatures now.
The cost per miniature on the Kickstarter was very low and had me wondering if it was too low.
The prices of the add-on boxes could possibly have gone higher. This was probably always going to be a niche game and with a limited, but enthusiastic fan base, the prices could have been bumped up and still sold the same amount. But at this point increasing the price for product they may be having a hard time selling is only going to sell much less.
Selling the boxes with 30% discount at the convention is actually a smart move. Not only will they still be making more profit than selling through distribution, but they may actually sell.
I've been going to conventions for about 25 years. Dealers rooms used to have a strong draw as it was a way to buy things that you might not normally have available to you. With internet shopping being so easy, international and cheap, full priced dealers rooms don't get a lot of sales from me. 30% discount is not bad.
heres the whole post regarding it on that FB page, which is also why I will not give my time to that site in any way shape or form, since the sites owner is just off, would rather go to a site ran by n815e or even Lolafett, then that FB group:
Robotech RPG Tactics
July 24 at 4:42pm ·
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Initiating a blockade around the Palladium booth at Gencon?
Really?
Cmon people, security is there for a reason.
Be smart about this!
Jefferey McDowell likes this.
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Alexander McLaren So wait are we now just saying that we were 'suckered' on kickstarter? Is that how bad it is?
July 24 at 5:19pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics oops
this is a fan page BTW And I have said I sympathize with the backers.
So i retract that.
I should have used a different word.
Im pretty sure if you follow us, you know our stance on Kickstarter.
Palladium has been in business for 30 years, has a credit line, and didnt need $1.4M of your money to pull this off.
Thats all Im saying here.
No disrespect man.
But this type of 1950s teamster tactics is not going to get Wave 2 out any sooner.
July 24 at 5:29pm · Edited
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Robotech RPG Tactics ....and yeah, its bad
July 24 at 5:26pm
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Alexander McLaren I stopped reading their updates months ago when they tried to distract us with talk of scale and future kickstarters... As if.
July 24 at 5:32pm
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Alexander McLaren PS I know this is a fan site, but if even palladium's fans are using the word 'suckered', then yeah it's really bad.
July 24 at 5:33pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics Well the part about scale, ya see thats the problem, they werent (and arent) talking to anyone with solid info.
We were the ones who broke that story, because we knew for a fact it was true, but when we informed the RRT community of what was going on, we walked into a major shitstorm, alot of people got angry over that report, so much so that now Palladium AT LEAST went out special to clarify that it was indeed staying at 6mm and wouldn't be switching to 15mm or 18mm as they were discussing during Open House.
Overall our sources are pretty on top of things, we felt confident releasing that one.
But my point is, things are so bad right now, that no matter what is reported, the backers are willing to "shoot the messenger" I personally got threatened and had to block some folks out of policy.
So yeah, the fans are not happy, and alot of them do indeed feel "suckered"
And I dont know what to say about that.
This is all alot of smoke and mirrors, and that could be for many reasons.
My personal theory is they are being advised by legal counsel to keep quiet on all the particulars.
I never invested in the kickstarter, so its a little easier to have the stance in this that I do.
I can rationalize whats happening without adding emotion into the equation.
I can tell ya, you wont see this until 2016, that is obvious.
There is no way they will be hitting the seasonal shipping dates because if they dont have their products on store shelves by Halloween theres no point.
Thats just standard, and you know they arent going to make that window.
However, to PBs credit, I would be absolutely stunned if they never fulfilled the order.
They outlived TSR for crying out loud.
Even though it doesnt look like it, Palladium knows what they're doing.
July 24 at 6:55pm · Edited
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Mul Duran Now, do it in Mecha costumes, that's clever.
July 24 at 8:29pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics Lol your a bad boy Mul
July 24 at 9:23pm
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Mul Duran Ok, ok...what would be cooler/more realistic, all the protesters dress up as ships in the Zentradei armada, and form a blockade of the booth.
July 24 at 9:58pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics talk about a photo op...
July 24 at 10:05pm
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Marnie Jefferson Time for the Gatoraide fellow nerlings we are laying siege to the PB booth! Security will kick you out and you will sate your ticket. You would be better spent is just coordinate everyone coming up separately and asking question on production and delivery dates on Wave 2. If 50+ people ask the same question he might get a hint and that would be better than a blockade
Which is most likely to arrive sooner Half Life 3 or Wave 2? Only the dark gods of the mighty D20 know
July 24 at 6:02pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics Wow Marnie, I salute you on your restraint because you are definitely one of the more vocal critics.
Props to you on that.
yeah guys, listen to marnie.... and.... woah... whats this about Half Life 3?
I been out of video games for a minute outside of GTA5...
Are you serious?
Theres going to be a new one?
I played the first two and loved em!
Dont tell me this is another Kickstarter...
July 24 at 7:01pm
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Marnie Jefferson I may be vocal but I know that nothing I say will change how soon or late the delivery date is.
The thing about any convention is that we go to have fun and I know I would not be arsed about doing a blockade when I have other stands to spend my time and money at. That is what may gets Kev's notice. People ask about Wave 2, buy nothing then leave. If every one that was going to blockade brought a friend and all did that PB may take notice
No Half Life 3 is still has no pulse, its vaporware. To me Wave 2 is simply sliding down further to the same level of vaporware. Everyone will start getting excited over the smallest rumour in the hope it becomes true but now I fear it will be closer to Duke Nukem 13 years of waiting only to bitterly disappointed.
1 · July 24 at 8:16pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics Yeah, the Duke Nukems were... well... they werent that great.
And talk about about cheesy!
I think the crew that made kung fury has pulled off the cheese factor how the Duke games wanted to be, but made it extremely entertaining adding 80s cliches without making fools of themselves.
"Dont Hassle the Hoff"
1 · July 24 at 8:29pm · Edited
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Joey Schumaker What am I missing???
July 24 at 4:52pm
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Robotech RPG Tactics Theres talk, rumors.
If I hear this stuff, even if its BS, I put out a disclaimer immediately.
No matter how bad this wave 2 stuff is, these types of ideas are unproductive and totally unacceptable.
This is touched up on a bit in the Gamers on Games clip we posted yesterday.
But I have read about this on other forums.
Could you imagine going to Indiana to buy an exclusive and getting shouted down by others because they got suckered on a Kickstarter campaign?
Not cool.
And thats what there is talk of.
n815e wrote: That FB group is run by a guy more full of it than Rick.
Agreed, I've had to force him to correct a few things he's posted. He seems to post some things just to try to grab attention. He is also a bit too enthusiastic in killing any criticism.
its a sign of tha apocalypse all sides agreeing on something, but seriously that guys site has people talking about barricading the PB booth and hes the one who brought it up.
I haven't been going to conventions for 25 years but the few that I've gone to, most producers don't sell their stuff for a flat discount. Instead they give promos, they give bundles and so on. Most, not all.
I dropped by PB again this morning, after queuing up 1.5 hours at UDE for the VS TCG and I wouldn't say they had a pretty steady stream of visitors. I mean, it really depends on how you want to see it. Forgeworld had very little visitors because it was at the far end of the hall, like really really far off. But if you compare the crowd around PB compared to places like Ninja Division or Plaidhat games or the demo table for Spartan Games Halo, or Wyrd or Golem Arcana, it just seems like the other places had much more people getting/giving demos than PB did.
Also, didn't see Kevin at all when I dropped by. No idea where he was.
Sining wrote: I haven't been going to conventions for 25 years but the few that I've gone to, most producers don't sell their stuff for a flat discount. Instead they give promos, they give bundles and so on. Most, not all.
I dropped by PB again this morning, after queuing up 1.5 hours at UDE for the VS TCG and I wouldn't say they had a pretty steady stream of visitors. I mean, it really depends on how you want to see it. Forgeworld had very little visitors because it was at the far end of the hall, like really really far off. But if you compare the crowd around PB compared to places like Ninja Division or Plaidhat games or the demo table for Spartan Games Halo, or Wyrd or Golem Arcana, it just seems like the other places had much more people getting/giving demos than PB did.
Also, didn't see Kevin at all when I dropped by. No idea where he was.
he was probably in his room crying wondering why are all the people being mean to him that or avoiding people from asking him where is wave 2.
Im not a big convention goer but is that a standard layout for a booth?
Customers are forced to stand on the walkways and deal with passing traffic to actually look at the products available while the staff have a huge empty box in the middle to dance in.
MangoMadness wrote: Im not a big convention goer but is that a standard layout for a booth?
Customers are forced to stand on the walkways and deal with passing traffic to actually look at the products available while the staff have a huge empty box in the middle to dance in.
You've not seen the prices to try and get a booth at gencon!
isn't that like a $10K booth space or $8k?
on the other hand:
just realized even if PB has all the designs done and paid for it will still cost them about $900,000 to finish up wave 2 maybe more, so yeah PB went overboard on the unique minis, and instead of adding so many minis to the bonuses should have increased the number of the original game mechs included, cause for those who say PB did not go thru their money got news for you that amount is for just wave 2 for tooling the molds, stamping out the product, packaging and shipping and so on and so on., PB does not have that kind of money, can PB still get out of this and while not smelling like roses remove a large chunk of the stink from them? yes its possible, and there is a way, but it will still cost PB, not as much, but it will cost them. and I'll tell you right now, its either the way I am thinking, or they get a miracle and manage to get an unsecured loan from their buddy lefty, or they will lose everything.
MangoMadness wrote: Im not a big convention goer but is that a standard layout for a booth?
Customers are forced to stand on the walkways and deal with passing traffic to actually look at the products available while the staff have a huge empty box in the middle to dance in.
Seems like a really bad layout to me
Generally speaking you want to invite people in.
Here is ours from this year:
Spoiler:
Outside (Still getting setup):
Inside:
Our booth is only a 10x10, PD's is a 20x20 I believe and likely cost around $8.5k.
no the costs would be prohibitive, which is why most companies go plastic since while the initial cost is costlier (depends on what kind of mold you go for, and cost is not much more), the per piece count after all the items to be made will be about half or even more cheaper then the cost of resin, which is why those companies that deal with resin usually only have them for the unique units, ones that do not need to be massively reproduced.
I talked to a volunteer for a bit, was briefly in Kevin's presence, but didn't get to talk to him yesterday. Today was a tournament and concert, I'll see about tomorrow/Saturday, but I'm only willing to waste so much time on this gak on my first Gencon.
no the costs would be prohibitive, which is why most companies go plastic since while the initial cost is costlier (depends on what kind of mold you go for, and cost is not much more), the per piece count after all the items to be made will be about half or even more cheaper then the cost of resin, which is why those companies that deal with resin usually only have them for the unique units, ones that do not need to be massively reproduced.
And that is why I questioned wave 2 being plastic from the start. Costs of tool steel moulds can be £10Ks for basic moulds. Slide-core tooling to produce hollow barrels is much more. And the more you want to put on a runner (Sprue), the more expensive it gets because you require much larger machines to make it - and larger machines means larger running costs due to heating and cooling the moulds every shot. Larger machines also require heavier hydraulics to move the mould halves and to keep them closed against the injection pressures.
OK, if there are any 'mainstream' units in there, they should be plastic. Things like the objective markers, YF boxes, and such.
But the character models? Stuff that is KS/Con exclusives? So far everyone has said they'll be plastic. I mean, seriously? All that expensive tooling going on 5-10K units? At that point, you've got to be thinking the difference in costs don't amount to much and getting them done in resin SHOULD have enabled them to be worked on at the same time as the wave 1 stuff. They SHOULD have been available for shipping BEFORE wave 1 went out [as indeed the RESIN SDF-1 and RESIN bases SHOULD have been.]
Most companies looking at producing stuff by injection moulding plastic are looking at 100's of K units minimum so they can minimise the cost/unit of the tooling. Now although you will certainly have to make multiple moulds to produce 5-10K units in resin, the undeniable fact here is that if character models and other small-run stuff had been resin from the start, all of that could [and SHOULD] have been worked on at the same time as Wave 1. We should all be sitting on that stuff already, along with Wave 1. [and due to silicone moulds being able to cope with certain undercuts (which tool steel can't) then they'd be the same quality in less pieces.]
If PB needs the money, they obviously overspent our money on retail product.
If PB intends on completing Wave 2 I suppose I should wish them the best.
I have no means of knowing this due to their deceitful practices dealing with their problem.
Glad Forar is having fun, PB would mean little in the scheme of things even for what they owe.
Kevin is a small fish in this venue so it would hurt his sensibilities and has less RPG emphasis than he is used to.
The low profile from him is somewhat understandable.
Hope the money for the booth was money well spent.
Finish wave 2 then have the decency to fade into irrelevancy PB.
Is anyone posting here a Mekton Zero backer? If so, what is the unicorn semi-annual update saying for that project? It's backer only and I tried doing a dakka search for a mekton thread but none came up so I figured I'd ask here in the other massively delayed and screwed up mecha KS thread. I have to say though that R. Talsorian are mucking up their much simpler KS even more than Palladium it seems and that is saying ALOT!
warboss wrote: Is anyone posting here a Mekton Zero backer? If so, what is the unicorn semi-annual update saying for that project? It's backer only and I tried doing a dakka search for a mekton thread but none came up so I figured I'd ask here in the other massively delayed and screwed up mecha KS thread. I have to say though that R. Talsorian are mucking up their much simpler KS even more than Palladium it seems and that is saying ALOT!
I am (yes, too -_- ). The update says exactly zilch, except to expect weekly updates from now on:
Spoiler:
First let us say that Mekton IS coming along. After computer crashes and the need to debulk the book a little (it was getting far larger than it should have been) we are in a good spot now. Expect weekly updates of some kind from here on out. They might not be too informative, but you’ll get something.
We apologize for the silence, but sometimes it’s important to put your nose down and focus. Otherwise stuff just doesn’t get done because of distractions.
So it's a palladium style 98% information-free "update" with a promise to do better on a massively delayed project from a veteran developer. Yeah... I'm going to file that under not likely. Thanks for sharing the (lack of) official info though.
Cypher-xv wrote: If possible Forar could you tape it? Do you know what you will ask specifically?
Actually had plans to do exactly this; to express my discontent politely but firmly, and note that their current form of communication was not acceptable. Managed to talk to a volunteer on Thursday during a mad dash around the Exhibitor hall (Dwarven Forge! Q-Workshop! Chessex! Flying Frog Productions! FFG! Yaaaaay! GENCON WOOOOOO!), but he didn't know anything beyond the talking points, Kevin was occupied with a few people (just chatted it seemed), and I had better things to do with my limited time.
The plan had been to try to have an extended discussion today, but last night our driver got word of a death in his family and needed to return ASAP. Given that it was a roughly 9 hour trek, we had to start early and couldn't do more than pass by (I had to pick up some stuff from a competition I won a prize at, and had left things behind for).
So I failed in my mission, but honestly, swept up in the glory that was Gencon, I don't regret it. My frustration with their bullgak wasn't going to overwhelm how awesome everything else was. They had a sizable booth and a pile of material, if it sold, great, get us some Wave Two info for feth's sake. If not... point stands, fess up.
I do wish I'd gotten a chance to bask in the radiant glow of the booth for longer, but I had a pile of cash to drop on the FFP team and it was totally worth it!
So, since this was your first time, was it your best four days in gamingTM? I definitely enjoyed every trip I made back in the day. My goal was to play a couple of favorites and to try a new game (whether booth demo or scheduled slot) every day and I used to have fun trying.
warboss wrote: So, since this was your first time, was it your best four days in gamingTM? I definitely enjoyed every trip I made back in the day. My goal was to play a couple of favorites and to try a new game (whether booth demo or scheduled slot) every day and I used to have fun trying.
I'll need a little time to digest what happened (and sadly, it was only 3 days for us, which skewed our plans a bit), but yeah, it was a hell of a good time. Lots of awesome costumes, great people (attendees and staff/booths/etc alike), some great games, overall totally worth making the trek.
Getting fethed by the hotel fethmuppetry (yes I'm still bitter, a bit moreso now actually, now that I've seen it first hand) really made things more difficult than they needed to be. We *should* have been downtown, which would've allowed us to return to drop things off locally (instead of the car) at will, duck back to relax or nap or just kill a little time to ourselves more easily, instead of a half hour trek each way. Would've allowed us to fit in more games and not need to be up at like 6:30-7:30 or so in order to get ready and get to the venue for early events, nor dragging every single person along because 1 or 2 had a 9am start, or leave at 11pm because 1 or 2 had to stick around.
Meant I had to leave the Concert Against Humanity at the intermission rather than party out to the end.
The WiFi in Indianapolis *suuuucked*. I knew that'd be the case with tens of thousands of extra people loading the system, but damn it was bad all the same.
The conversion from Canadian to US dollars hurt.
2 beds, an air-mattress and a sofa bed only went so far given that the couch was pretty bad.
But that said it was still an incredible adventure. True Dungeon was such a fun experience, the events/seminars were all solid, and I played Netrunner with some really great folks (before I had to jet for said concert). Got to snag a few awesome dice, chatted with the FFP and Dwarven Forge teams at length, and just reveled in the awesome costumes and friendly people. I also ended up in a documentary (no idea if they'll use the footage of course).
Not sure we'll make it next year, but hopefully for the 50 we'll get to go with more of the crew, get a hotel room or two downtown, and preferably fly in, but that'll add a considerable amount on what will already be a very expensive experience.
warboss wrote: Is anyone posting here a Mekton Zero backer? If so, what is the unicorn semi-annual update saying for that project? It's backer only and I tried doing a dakka search for a mekton thread but none came up so I figured I'd ask here in the other massively delayed and screwed up mecha KS thread. I have to say though that R. Talsorian are mucking up their much simpler KS even more than Palladium it seems and that is saying ALOT!
I've not heard a word. All they post are a few pics of character sheets periodically and that should have been part of the base rules that could have been consolidated even before the KS started.
warboss wrote: Thanks for the rundown. Did you get a chance to stop by some Robotech games? If so, how did they go? Was there any robotech pick up gaming going on?
I wandered by the booth a couple of times; on Thursday they had people milling around, and I saw others pick up some boxes, look them over, and put them down, but never saw a lineup at the cashier station. Guess they were just that fast! >.> Ended up talking to a volunteer, but as noted previously, couldn't get ahold of Kevin or anyone of note.
Friday was a writeoff due to the Netrunner tournament and the Concert.
Saturday I swung by again, but while people were around and I saw a couple of demo games being played out, I didn't find time to nab someone to chat, though due to having events from noon to 6 (when the exhibit hall shut down), it was only in passing in the late morning and mid afternoon.
I didn't bother prioritizing getting in a demo game, as I had other things to do and see, but I do recall seeing several games/demos in progress, and as an amateur (and at a distance), the asteroid terrain they bought at the Open House and the models they had painted up for play looked fine enough, but I was never closer than a few feet away, not more than a cursory glance.
Wish I could've put at least a little time into pressing for answers as I'd hoped to, but an emergency meant we had to be on the road again ASAP.
And honestly, I do see it as a 'the best revenge is living well' situation.
Oh well, they didn't have one dude annoyed with them asking questions.
But they also didn't have my team (all 3 of us that backed were at the convention) dropping stacks of cash on exclusives. Instead I went and picked up so much Shadows of Brimstone stuff I needed a filled cardboard box to carry it around, and I know for a fact that's a game I love and enjoy with friends. Talking to the Frogs passionately about something fun infinitely outweighs griping to people who seem to only hear the Peanuts' 'adult voice' whenever critique is leveled their way.
warboss wrote: Thanks for the rundown. Did you get a chance to stop by some Robotech games? If so, how did they go? Was there any robotech pick up gaming going on?
I wandered by the booth a couple of times; on Thursday they had people milling around, and I saw others pick up some boxes, look them over, and put them down, but never saw a lineup at the cashier station. Guess they were just that fast! >.> Ended up talking to a volunteer, but as noted previously, couldn't get ahold of Kevin or anyone of note.
Friday was a writeoff due to the Netrunner tournament and the Concert.
Saturday I swung by again, but while people were around and I saw a couple of demo games being played out, I didn't find time to nab someone to chat, though due to having events from noon to 6 (when the exhibit hall shut down), it was only in passing in the late morning and mid afternoon.
I didn't bother prioritizing getting in a demo game, as I had other things to do and see, but I do recall seeing several games/demos in progress, and as an amateur (and at a distance), the asteroid terrain they bought at the Open House and the models they had painted up for play looked fine enough, but I was never closer than a few feet away, not more than a cursory glance.
Wish I could've put at least a little time into pressing for answers as I'd hoped to, but an emergency meant we had to be on the road again ASAP.
And honestly, I do see it as a 'the best revenge is living well' situation.
Oh well, they didn't have one dude annoyed with them asking questions.
But they also didn't have my team (all 3 of us that backed were at the convention) dropping stacks of cash on exclusives. Instead I went and picked up so much Shadows of Brimstone stuff I needed a filled cardboard box to carry it around, and I know for a fact that's a game I love and enjoy with friends. Talking to the Frogs passionately about something fun infinitely outweighs griping to people who seem to only hear the Peanuts' 'adult voice' whenever critique is leveled their way.
sooooooo in other words you got lazy. I did hear a rumour that Kevin and someone did get into it which is why Kevin was hardly there.
Was it a rumor from the same site that talked about the blockade of the booth? And, no, it's not lazy to just want to enjoy your vacation. Few people (although they do exist) get enjoyment from simply antagonizing others even when completely warranted. Did I hope that someone would confront him in an interview? Yes... did I think it likely that a gamer would risk getting kicked out by a vindictive Palladium staffer after interviewing them and not accepting spin as an answer? No. Your talk of the great gamer uprising against palladium (whether at gencon, on the store shelves, or in your local court) is just talk. If people don't like Palladium and what they do/make, the best/only thing to do is not buy. Admitting that you're effectively powerless (unless you want to spend more money than you've already sunk into this) is the first step towards healing.
I don't know if you've been to Gencon, but it's kind of insane. So no, I prioritized gak that I was excited about over wasting time trying to get Kevin's attention.
And then a fething death in the family happened for our driver and we had to abandon our Sunday plans, which was mostly downtime to wrap things up (like go mock Palladium).
If that was sarcasm or humour, it'd be appreciated if it wasn't worded as an accusation.
warboss wrote: Was it a rumor from the same site that talked about the blockade of the booth? And, no, it's not lazy to just want to enjoy your vacation. Few people (although they do exist) get enjoyment from simply antagonizing others even when completely warranted. Did I hope that someone would confront him in an interview? Yes... did I think it likely that a gamer would risk getting kicked out by a vindictive Palladium staffer after interviewing them and not accepting spin as an answer? No. Your talk of the great gamer uprising against palladium (whether at gencon, on the store shelves, or in your local court) is just talk. If people don't like Palladium and what they do/make, the best/only thing to do is not buy. Admitting that you're effectively powerless (unless you want to spend more money than you've already sunk into this) is the first step towards healing.
actually no it was not from that crazy site this was a live stream feed, and didn't say anyone had to hound him, just ask, "wheres wave 2?" and considering Forar is outspoken as the next regarding this, you would think he would have asked.
and what talk of great gamer uprising have I mentioned? that came and went with nobody practically buying their product.
am i powerless? no, only the useless and foolish say that, one voice can have great power, and to not believe that is already admitting defeat.
will I take PB to court if they fail on several areas? yes, will it cost me anything? no. will PB lose? yes, will they be paying my lawyer? yes.
will the FTC step in? most likely
Will their states AG step in? not so sure.
Does PB have a way to pull their collective behinds out from the fire? yes, do they know how? probably not and even if they did they would not since it would be admitting defeat.
if someone does take PB to court and wins will it be heard all over the world? probably not PB will push for a gag order in regards to the case and anything involving it, so as to not cause a flood of similar suits to follow, on another note has PB been to the court houses in the past few months? yes their name was on a docket, for what ? have no clue since its not listed and can't access it.
Merijeek wrote: That's waaaaaaay dated, holmes. It's been "then the terrorists win" for at least 13 or 14 years.
what did you expect his response was lame so it might as well be outdated, does communism even still exist? I'm talking pure communism.
Cuba came the closest in intent and theory but no, it never actually existing in its purest state thanks to human nature. In any case, you should change your sig to "I'm a gonna sue palladium soon!". It'll save you a heck of a lot of typing.
warboss wrote: This is a Palladium thread. Being out of date for less than 15 years is a lofty future goal.
if going by those parameters then this thread is to futuristic, since PB is so far behind the times they are still creating ancient history.
@Alpharius its hard to stay on topic when PB gives us nothing, no wave 2, no pics, no product, no update other then "Soon" and so on, we have nothing to talk about so we go off on tangents.
Alpharius wrote: At that point, it probably would be a good idea to NOT post then.
PB is giving somewhat regular 'updates' - even if there isn't much content/update info in them.
I'm thinking "PB''s updates are more for them to think they are doing something, me i'm surprised KS allows them to hock their other product on their site like that which really tells me more about how KS is run and if I even want to be involved with a site which accepts no responsibility or anything like that.
The post GenCon reporting will be something to look for.
I really am curious what interest PB got.
I suspect much like Forar, the crowds were drawn away from the PB booth by more exciting bling in other areas.
Yes, if I was at GenCon I think I would have spent 10 minutes at the PB booth for the "wave 2" question and then leave without looking back.
Do you think that if Kevin could get more models made by GHQ and no wave 2 he could go back to GenCon next year?
Talizvar wrote: Do you think that if Kevin could get more models made by GHQ and no wave 2 he could go back to GenCon next year?
Forget it, I know the answer to that.
if PB has no wave 2 by next GenCon, me thinks it will be because there is no longer a PB and Kevin is in the poor house or worse.
Talizvar wrote: Do you think that if Kevin could get more models made by GHQ and no wave 2 he could go back to GenCon next year?
Forget it, I know the answer to that.
if PB has no wave 2 by next GenCon, me thinks it will be because there is no longer a PB and Kevin is in the poor house or worse.
You are such an optimist, I only wish.
we can only hope since I gave up on PB ever delivering wave 2 or other generations.
To anyone who went Gencon - was there a noticeable dent in product available at the booth between Thurs & Sun? Did it look like PB had made a significant number of sales?
No, not that I noticed. But I was busy on Saturday and Sunday with tournaments so I didn't pay that much attention. In general, I would say gencon was pretty quiet for them. Tons of booths had more people or demos
Even if it Was quite the post GC update will read how it was the best and how they meet some great people and sales were da best ever. During GC Thomas Roach said he spoke to Kevin/messiah and he told Tom how it's the best GC ever and sales were the best in years.
As an attendee I did not notice a plummeting of their stock quantity in my wanderings between Thursday and Saturday (when I pointedly checked them out), however, a casual glance and the right timing could show the same of other booths that I know for a fact were selling hard, they just kept restocking.
Do I think that's what happened? Not at all! But it's possible, and without someone time lapsing their space all weekend, it's tough to say.
Secondly, keep a perspective on their baseline. It's entirely possible for the booth to not be terribly busy and have lukewarm sales (compared to others), AND for it to be their best Gencon ever.
Given who we're working with, I wouldn't call them mutually exclusive statements.
Best Gen Con ever could simply be because he didn't get into a screaming match with anyone, or that he was surrounded only by fan friends, or didn't catch any negative waves.
Better sales than recent years isn't surprising given that they haven't had a strong release in ages. Even if Robotech's KS development is a sucking mire it's at least something new that appeals to a market outside of rpg people buying mugs and key chains. With the convention models Robotech currently has 16-20 skus? Compared to their RPG materials that introduce maybe 2-3 in a given year. (the robotech products probably have a higher net profit margin as well) It doesn't take much to honestly say "sales are up" especially when the company was in constant danger of folding since the crisis of treachery. When you're at absolute rock bottom any sales are positive.
well the live stream I was watching that just so happened to be pointing at the PB booth I saw they had 2 pallets of RRT game boxs, not counting expansion packs, and they ended up packing up most of it, sales were dismal on RRT product. and its not because of people blockading or whatever the PB booth, people just walked by mostly, the game board display did attract attention, but over all it looked like a flea market booth, PB for all the years they been working a GC booth have not really looked around at the other booths to understand presentation is 50% of sales, the other 50% is the product itself.
sadly PB was lacking in both.
as to convention exclusive items, couldn't tell (big difference between seeing if a big box or even an expansion box sells to a little card), but i'm gonna say they were not so great, my reasoning is , I haven't seen them show up on eBay, saw someone list an auction which had an Apache and an A-10 claiming they were RRT minis, just minus the cards and stats and packaging and such, but not a single Con Exclusive RRT item has shown up at all, and usually the site would have a smattering of them listed especially since new ones were "Allegedly" available.
Then matters were further compounded with PB displaying fan made product in their display booth which was not good.
stanman wrote: When you're at absolute rock bottom any sales are positive.
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
If your previous best was $10,000 across the weekend, and you rake in $12,000, that's indeed the best!
Even if some booths were pulling that in per day or per hour. Not to say that every booth needs to be compared to the big dogs, but expectations, context, and vague statements like they're known for (especially when they're known for exaggeration) can get messy.
Similarly, the 30% off coupon is interesting. For all their proclamations about selling strongly, most people I know that attend conventions simply accept that anything purchased is likely at full MSRP, if not outright getting fleeced (it's practically a part of the convention experience at this point, barring the last day clearance sales).
Bringing the price down to retail'ish levels (give or take a couple bucks) is a bit surprising. I thought this product was selling strongly and stock was flying off shelves? Why the need to further incentivize people to pick some up?
Unless maybe it's not selling quite so strongly.
Exceptions granted for Sunday. Obviously not a universal, but if knocking 10 or 20% off helps reduce the amount of stuff to pack up and lug home, go for it.
But purely anecdotally, of those two pallet stacks, I didn't see them disappear as though devoured by a swarm of locusts like I did some other booths. As noted above, perhaps they restocked and I didn't notice, but while there were people milling around and buying things, any claims of being swamped or lineups I'd take with a grain of salt (again, unless we're going in comparison to their previous years, though they always seem to claim it was the greatest thing every!)
Now I guess we wait to see how long we have to wait for the post-Gencon info (newsletter and update). I empathize with being exhausted post-convention, I always need a couple of days to recoup from being 'on' for 3-4 days straight, plus booth set up and tear down, and we don't bring nearly as much stuff as they do.
In comparison to last year, we got an update post-Gencon on the following Saturday.
Hell, let's take a trip down memory lane;
Spoiler:
Update #154
Aug 23 2014
Gen Con Report
329 Comments
Like 56 likes Hello, Wayne here. We’re all back from Gen Con. As most of you know, we did not get our miracle, so Robotech® RPG Tactics™ wasn't released from US Customs in time for us to have it for sale at the convention. However, we did have three copies with us to display, and we ran tons of demos. For more details, I’ll let Kevin’s Gen Con Report below fill you in.
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The reaction to Robotech® RPG Tactics™ at Gen Con was overwhelmingly positive. People liked what they saw, enjoyed the demos, and liked the game play and the size and detail of the game pieces. Some were positively giddy. I have to admit, so are we. We met many Kickstarter backers who expressed their support and appreciation for the game, and we returned the favor by shaking their hands and expressing our appreciation for them. It has been a long, rough journey, but the end product is sweet. Cannot wait till we can start shipping out product.
And speaking of product, I am happy to report that the first container from China has been released by US Customs and we expect to begin shipping by the end of next week. Meanwhile, Wayne Smith has been working with various out-of-house tech people to set up our new shipping hardware and software. We had technicians and IT people in and out of the office all week as they set up the new systems and customize software to suit our needs.
We have been hesitant to offer completion and shipping dates, because they seem to be constantly shifting and changing. I think the completion and ship dates for Container One changed something like four or five times; one day here, three days there, another two day delay later, then the boat left port a day and a half late, made up that day and a half at sea, only to see the container tagged and held up by US Customs for a random inspection. It seems crazy to us at Palladium Books to subject YOU to that kind of frustration and tension. However, many of you have told us that is exactly what you want to know. We aim to please, so we’ll tell you what we know, when we know it, but you need to realize that timetables and dates are almost certain to change. Shifting schedules in China, shipping schedules and intervention by Customs are beyond our control. Wayne is tentatively scheduled to visit the China factories in September to see the manufacturing process and help build strong communications. Things should start to move more quickly now, with a new container of product shipping every week or two. That said, the schedule has already slipped a bit from what we were told before Gen Con. Containers Two and Three were supposed to have shipped together this past week. However, a manufacturing delay has changed that.
At this time, Container Two is now tentatively scheduled to be packed around the middle to end of next week. We do not yet have a definitive date for when the ship will leave China. Probably between August 28 and September 3. Container Three should ship about one week later, and Container Four a week or so after that. This is the data we have at this time, but as noted, it often changes. By the way, these four containers should allow us to fulfill our Kickstarter obligations for Wave One. That’s everything, prints, accessories, etc.
Oh, and we only recently realized that the plastic blast template is not painted, and it is too late to do anything about it now. This detail slipped past all of us – Palladium, Ninja Division, the factory, everyone. Sorry. It still looks great, is a quality piece of plastic and is easy to use.
Meanwhile, we are working with Harmony Gold to be allowed to provide PDFs of the core rules and other key elements of play and other fun stuff.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two
Everything is in motion and Wave Two is coming. We’re also already thinking about the Masters Saga (Southern Cross), New Generation (Invid), and other eras and battle fronts (like the Zentraedi’s interplanetary war with the Invid!). I think you’ll like the things we are kicking around.
2014 Gen Con Report
Without Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell, there was no reason to bring our new, special storefront. We went with the usual rolling shelves and tables. We filled space with specialty items, prints and artwork we would not normally have brought along. Having Robotech® RPG Tactics™ at Gen Con was just not meant to be.
We met a large number of Kickstarter backers, and hundreds upon hundreds of gamers enjoyed demos of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We had three sample boxes of the main game on display (one completely laid out across a six foot table), and people got to examine the actual box contents, sprues, cards, rule book, etc. Most people were thrilled with what they saw and we got many positive comments about the quality.
We had a bunch of professionally painted Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game pieces in two glass display cases, along with some unpainted ones and a few sprues, so people could see them painted and unpainted. On the two small demo tables – one manned by Palladium’s very own Jeff Burke and the other by volunteer and uber Robotech® fan, Thomas Roache – were more game pieces professionally painted by Blue Table Painting. I think Jeff and Tom were surrounded (and I do mean surrounded) by interested fans non-stop throughout Gen Con, from morning till close of the Exhibit Hall. Unfortunately, that meant many of those passing by could not get a clear look at, or the chance to photograph, these superior painted pieces. Many did, however, get to play with them. Thank you, Tom and Jeff, for your hard work and tireless efforts to demonstrate Robotech® RPG Tactics™. And to Jeff Ruiz (NMI on the Palladium boards), who pitched in and did a good job running demos during breaks.
Carmen Bellaire manned the big Robotech® RPG Tactics™ demo table at the booth. Sadly, Carmen was not his usual flamboyant and fun self. His wallet was stolen two days before we were all to leave for Gen Con. As a Canadian, without his Enhanced Driver’s License, Carmen could not cross the border from Canada into the USA. He applied for an Emergency Passport, which seemed an unlikely turn of events. To everyone’s surprise and joy, Carmen was granted an Emergency Passport, and drove all Wednesday night to arrive at Gen Con by Thursday morning. Unfortunately, the stress of the theft (canceling credit cards and such), not knowing if he would get the passport in time, and very, very little sleep took a heavy toll on him. He looked tired, even a bit sickly, and as a result, his demos lacked the energy and zip that people have come to expect from Carmen. People still had fun, but it was not the rollicking Bellaire experience folks have come to expect. Moreover, Carmen had done a quick, basic painting of the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game pieces with an unconventional color scheme that some people did not think showed them off in their best light, but we had to make due with what we had.
There were only so many advance game pieces from China to paint and use in demos. Despite having Blue Table Painting do nearly 60 game pieces and two other gents painting up another 10 or so, there were only so many for demonstrations. Carmen’s table used a combination of the actual plastic game pieces and our old demo pieces. As the other two, smaller demo tables were in constant use and usually surrounded by players and spectators, the large table with the unconventional painted game pieces was what many people got to see, especially when just walking by.
Pat Jakubowski ran two or three “official” Robotech® RPG Tactics™ games as part of Palladium’s block of 50+ Gen Con gaming events. From all reports, Pat rocked these games and players had a blast. I had several players come to the Palladium booth the next day specifically to tell me how much fun they had in his games. Awesome. I also had several people who played in demos as well as these games tell me they thought Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was fast, fun and a winner destined to be a big hit. (From your mouths to God’s ears.) Many people also commented on the quality and level of detail, and how much they were looking forward to the game’s release. Fantastic.
Things that stand out to me;
We have been hesitant to offer completion and shipping dates, because they seem to be constantly shifting and changing... However, many of you have told us that is exactly what you want to know. We aim to please, so we’ll tell you what we know, when we know it, but you need to realize that timetables and dates are almost certain to change.
That was late August. Half a year later, we finally got a taste of wave two info. It has been nearly half a year since then, and less than 5 months until alleged delivery of wave two.
Everything is in motion and Wave Two is coming. We’re also already thinking about the Masters Saga (Southern Cross), New Generation (Invid), and other eras and battle fronts (like the Zentraedi’s interplanetary war with the Invid!)
Interesting that the Big History Of Everything included a callback to this (the Zentraedi/Invid war). I'd forgotten it was something they were emphasizing back then. It does make it a touch funnier to see them proclaim that they're working on other series when they can't even deliver what's on... their... plate. Oh, yeah, Palladium ADHD; can't work on and finish one thing, have to have ten more lined up!
Without Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell, there was no reason to bring our new, special storefront. We went with the usual rolling shelves and tables. We filled space with specialty items, prints and artwork we would not normally have brought along.
"New Special Storefront", eh? Because this year they did have RRT, but all I saw were rolling shelves and tables, along with prints and artwork. What happened to the special storefront?
Forar wrote: "New Special Storefront", eh? Because this year they did have RRT, but all I saw were rolling shelves and tables, along with prints and artwork. What happened to the special storefront?
that was their new special store front, they had RRT on the tables
NMI is the unhappy-looking bald heavy-set big guy in front of what appears to be a single pallet of product? That's all that they brought to sell? 50 boxes plus a smattering of small items (on the table in the background)? Even if they sold 3x that, they wouldn't cover the cost of attending.
And they had no news or Wave 2 product? They're not running a big demo corps? Why even bother going to GenCon with a big booth that's mostly idle?
____
Edited to replace previous description with the more euphemistic "heavy-set big guy". Sorry about that.
JohnHwangDD wrote: NMI is the unhappy-looking bald fatty in front of what appears to be a single pallet of product? That's all that they brought to sell? 50 boxes plus a smattering of small items (on the table in the background)? Even if they sold 3x that, they wouldn't cover the cost of attending.
And they had no news or Wave 2 product? They're not running a big demo corps? Why even bother going to GenCon with a big booth that's mostly idle?
They pretty much always have one that size, but instead of having RRT stuff they typically just have more art and books scattered around.
And I'm sure NMI just looks pissy because Kevin told him he's not allowed to ban demo customers who refuse to kiss his ass.
The talk about NMI's appearance is unwarranted; I'm sure plenty of folks (including myself) posting in this thread never had a hope to be runway models either. Can we limit the criticism of NMI to his rather North Korean style of forum management/hero worship and his documented inability to get through a demo without screwing up a rule in each and every interaction between two models?
It looks like they sold a few copies in that last photo that was posted, hard to tell how many due to the way theyre stacked, but it doesnt look like a whole pallet to me (either that or they put some extra boxes on it).
Also, I think (from another thread?) the cost of a booth like the one PB had would be $8500, thats not even including the cost of food, travel, and lodging that they likely paid on top of that in order to attend. No way in hell do they even come close to breaking even if thats all they brought with them, so either the company is doing very well financially and they are able to swallow the costs without care... or they are terribly financially mismanaged.
chaos0xomega wrote: It looks like they sold a few copies in that last photo that was posted, hard to tell how many due to the way theyre stacked, but it doesnt look like a whole pallet to me (either that or they put some extra boxes on it).
Also, I think (from another thread?) the cost of a booth like the one PB had would be $8500, thats not even including the cost of food, travel, and lodging that they likely paid on top of that in order to attend. No way in hell do they even come close to breaking even if thats all they brought with them, so either the company is doing very well financially and they are able to swallow the costs without care... or they are terribly financially mismanaged.
You can't put a cost on the warm feeling of being told by a fan friend that you're doing everything right despite massive delays and being a running joke for decades. Besides, the KS funded gencon escapades for decades to come as long as they don't deliver wave 2!
warboss wrote: The talk about NMI's appearance is unwarranted; I'm sure plenty of folks (including myself) posting in this thread never had a hope to be runway models either. Can we limit the criticism of NMI to his rather North Korean style of forum management/hero worship and his documented inability to get through a demo without screwing up a rule in each and every interaction between two models?
Yes, please!
And even then, RULE #1 applies even to those who aren't forum members.
If it wasn't for the snyde comment at the end of each update showing how they really feel about their customers, you could almost feel sorry for Palladium.
So, while we're busy being adults who don't feel the need to body shame people (and believe me, NMI is no friend of mine), let's look at the latest newsletter!
Pertinent bits:
The last several Weekly Updates have been rather brief as we were preparing for Gen Con and trying to hammer out a couple of books. That means this Update will be fairly long, but full of news and fun stuff, including our first Robotech® Flash Sale and our Gen Con Report.
Oooh, long AND full of news and fun stuff!
Zentraedi Invasion sale, bunch of stuff for 1/3 off (basically the same price as Gencon)
We want everyone to discover the fun and excitement of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Especially with Wave 2 RRT products coming in the months ahead.
Good luck with that one. "In the months ahead": lawl.
Blah blah blah REF Marines Sourcebook finally coming to stores, etc.
UPDATE: Gen Con Indy Report, Robotech®, Rifts® and more
Gen Con was fun, exciting and completely worthwhile. Sales, though our best ever, were a bit disappointing. We met with old friends and made new ones. Signed a lot of books and enjoyed talking with hundreds of fans. A lot of RRT Kickstarter backers (I must have spoken to close to a hundred myself) stopped by to offer words of encouragement and support, and we are glad to hear from so many people who are enjoying the game. Of course, like all of us, they are anxious to see Wave Two items in their mailboxes and on store shelves. With any luck, that will be toward the end of this year. We continue explore ways to reduce the piece count of individual RRT pieces and work on other aspects of the game.
Robotech® Expeditionary Force Marines™ Sourcebook was the hot selling book. Gamers took advantage of the two Gen Con coupons – one celebrating the 30th Anniversary of Robotech® and the other the 25th Anniversary of Rifts® – so we sold a lot of all things Robotech® and Rifts®. (Don’t worry, you’ll be seeing a few very similar sales in the weeks ahead.) With the exception of a few lulls on Friday and a couple on Saturday, we were busy almost all the time, even on Sunday.
Sales of the three Robotech® exclusive figures were light. A surprise, because they look pretty awesome. And painted up, they are fantastic. I think we were particularly struck by Grell and Breetai who look amazing painted. They are also the most figurative and different from the pieces released in Wave One, so I imagine that element of newness helps them stand out to us. I’m personally a fan of the Breetai character, so he sticks out for me and is just a cool figure.
One high point at Gen Con (and there were a number of them) was meeting and chatting with legendary modeler and Creative Director at Spartan Games, Neil Fawcett. Neil was very gracious with his time and input. He looked over Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and he liked what he saw. He loved the detail and expressed his opinion that the sculpts and sprues were of top notch quality. He was sorry to hear that the factory had to, in effect, create new digital files from the STL files provided them, because it makes the tooling process so long and costly, but thought they did an excellent job. He mentioned several times while looking over the various sprues (and finished built pieces) that “the factory did a really nice job for you.” It was cool hearing that from a man with such experience and background. Neil also offered us some advice for moving forward with Wave Two items, and liked the three new metal exclusives at the show; commenting that the quality, all round, was high. He’s a robot/spaceship nut (no surprise there, right) and loves looking at stuff like this. I gave him a copy of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and he said he’d return the favor by sending Palladium a few things. Awesome. Thanks, Neil, it was great meeting you and we look forward to seeing more amazing releases for Halo and other projects from Spartan Games.
Btw, if you guys and gals haven’t taken a look at the Halo miniature game from Spartan Games, you need to check them out. Wow.
Now, I'm gonna pull a few snippets out here;
Sales, though our best ever, were a bit disappointing.
Now keep in mind this is a company that embraces spin like a top. Admitting lackluster sales is a wee bit out of character. Not unprecedented, but at odds with the SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE approach to, well, everything.
they are anxious to see Wave Two items in their mailboxes and on store shelves. With any luck, that will be toward the end of this year.
Ummm, guys, you really need to stop doubling down on this. We'll go over why in a moment.
Sales of the three Robotech® exclusive figures were light. A surprise, because they look pretty awesome. And painted up, they are fantastic.
Again with the admission of light sales. It has been noted in the comments that sales of these are non-existent on eBay as well, and honestly I think knowing that over 5,000 people can order as many as they like, the interest in fighting with that market is minimal. The people most likely to want them are the ones with the most access, barring some exceptions of course, but finding a backer willing to snag one or two hasn't seemed very difficult from watching Mike's page and other chatter about the game.
I also find a bit of humour in Neil sending them some stuff. "Here guys, let me show you how its done, taking a popular franchise and turning it into a pile of money", but of course, I haven't looked into Halo's new board game, so that's mostly snark without actual experience.
Bunch of pics, some fan shout outs, etc.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Excitement about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two items is starting to build here at Palladium as we feel like things are coming together in figuring out ways to reduce the piece count for RRT game pieces.
We understand the frustration, and we feel it every day and 10 times more deeply.
Rules, cards, force organization tables and more should start getting posted in the weeks ahead. We are shooting to release the 20+ Kickstarter Wave Two items at the end of 2015, but don’t know yet. The delay has been in the tooling and engineering end of things, as we continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count of the game pieces. Something we know everyone would like to see. That means there is nothing new to show you because each of the possible solutions will have a different end result and different number of pieces and final construction. Until we nail that all down, I’m afraid there is nothing new to physically show. After all, you have seen all the 3D sculpts from which we and the manufacturer are working.
That does NOT mean, however, that there isn’t progress being made. Quite the contrary, we feel there is progress being made on several fronts. We spoke with our manufacturing rep a week before Gen Con, met with them at Gen Con, and will continue to focus on favorable solutions to the piece count issues in the weeks ahead. On other fronts we have been talking with distributors and others about various aspects of the game and organized play. We’ll also be posting rules, cards and other things very soon.
Please understand that there is a lot going on for Palladium’s small staff, and we have obligations and commitments to more than RRT. But RRT is our top priority and ALWAYS on our minds.
Our goal has never stopped being making an ever expanding, quality game that will please as large an audience as possible. We listen and we care. The entire idea of doing conventional armies came from fans, and after talking with Mike Arnold, we thought we’d pursue the idea, and spoke with GHQ under his recommendation. Items like the Breetai, Grell and Miriya Super Valkyrie in unique poses are intended to help build and keep excitement about this game line.
More in the weeks ahead.
Soooo, nothing. You have nothing to show for all the efforts leading up to the emphasis on Wave One, and after Wave One went into production (granted, delivery ate up time/effort as well, but still, it has literally been over a year since production efforts went out of their hands).
Touching back on my comment earlier, delivering in ~5 months when there aren't even molds being tooled yet is insane. It's nonsensical, and even IF (I don't, but IF) one gives the benefit of the doubt for all the surprises with Wave One, nobody sensible can look at that statement and say "Yup, totally reasonable".
LE figures that only backers and Gen Con folks can get are their olive branch to keep people excited? Falling behind repeatedly on giving people info about conventional forces while Mike appears to do most of the heavy lifting for them?
I'd say that he should be paid for brute forcing this project inches along, but apparently he's turned down compensation, so... good on the volunteers?
I'll concede it was kind of long, but there wasn't really any 'news' regarding a project that hasn't seen substantial information in nearly 5.5 months.
I don't even believe we've seen all the 3D renders. Certainly not the SDF-1, at least. And I don't remember seeing the Armored Valk (I do remember the Jotun) or the Zent infantry.
Forar did a good job dissecting the Update as a whole, but I found the below paragraph highly interesting.
Rules, cards, force organization tables and more should start getting posted in the weeks ahead. We are shooting to release the 20+ Kickstarter Wave Two items at the end of 2015, but don’t know yet. The delay has been in the tooling and engineering end of things, as we continue to explore ways to reduce the piece count of the game pieces. Something we know everyone would like to see. That means there is nothing new to show you because each of the possible solutions will have a different end result and different number of pieces and final construction. Until we nail that all down, I’m afraid there is nothing new to physically show. After all, you have seen all the 3D sculpts from which we and the manufacturer are working.
First line, is that an admission they're blowing off the second "deadline" they set for Conventional Forces? They've got a week before the current one expires (August 15th), and they're talking weeks? For a company that usually undercuts their estimates, it looks likely. For something that was supposed to take two weeks to do (announced June 7, "These stats and info will be posted next week for your reference" posted June 14), it's taken nine, with no end in sight.
Shooting for 20+ SKU's by EoY. Even if they started pressing molds today, it's at least a month turnaround on getting the PPP's and test sprues approved. At least a month to do the production run. And a month to pack and ship to Detroit. And that's assuming "released" means to backers, and not to retail as "released" could imply (unless backers are gonna get hosed again). All "wishful thinking" best case scenarios. That puts them mid-November. With not a single thing at this point considered finished enough to show us. Just admit it's not possible, Kevin. Cause this is fairytale thinking.
There's EASILY six months of realistic, non-extraordinary delays (particularly on the production run side) that could crop up. As was said when Wave 1 was still in waiting, manufacturers aren't sitting on their thumbs waiting for the "go" order from their customers. They're usually scheduled to have as little downtime as possible, so finding an appropriate open slot isn't likely, at least not without being an indispensable party (ie, a company that does enough business they get priority), or paying a hefty "queue-jumper" priority fee.
Note, there's also no mention of the resin components that need to be done before Wave 2 is complete. As they haven't shown them, it means they haven't been done. As "there's nothing new to show". And completed models, or even just the greens masters would be "something new to show".
As Stormonu pointed out, there's still several figures that haven't been shown, but even if those had, if PB think there's no difference between those digital sculpts we saw during the campaign, and the sculpt breakdowns we saw in late Feb, they're in a lot deeper hole competency-wise than we thought, since Ninja Pop left the scene. Irregardless, there's STILL plenty to show. They could do more of what they did on that Feb update, for each model we have NOT seen in that format, and talk about what the plans to shorten the parts counts are. They could show the progress showing for example, a model that was at an excessive count, side by side with the newer, less intensive parts count version. And are they trying to tell us of the 20+ Kickstarter Wave Two items they're working on, not a SINGLE ONE is considered complete at this point? That every single model requires enough work, that they're not willing to show us? Yeah... December's a realistic goal.
Simply put, there's PLENTY they could show backers (assuming they're as far as they claim). And they "choose" not to. While that's not definitive proof that there isn't actually anything to show, it's not an unfair assumption given their previous conduct. They've lost any benefit of the doubt when it comes to trustworthiness over the last two years of this campaign. Kevin could say the sun would rise in the east, and I'd still want to go outside at dawn and check. It's a farce at this point, and I sincerely feel for those both financially and/or emotionally committed to this project.
Bah.
Still lurking.
NMI, all I can say is: sitting through a demo video with him in it for RRT was painful in the extreme.
It is not his "thing" and it shows.
He does look a little at a loss of what to do without a "ban" button.
Release a Robotech video game and maybe the young folk may stumble across the RRT game.
Agreed with Forar, once splits are settled, layout still needs to be done, cutting the die and finding some production time: good bloody luck before end of year for all the models.
Wow, big write-up there too Morgan.
At this stage with the 3d models of things to show: PB will not do it.
They would have to pay someone with the skills for the model layout.
They have nothing to show since it is in the hands of skilled people they have to pay for every action and they may all be Chinese.
Yeah the ND fallout is probably biting them pretty hard.
More commitment to wave2 is apparent, maybe GenCon shook them up a bit and they saw what success looks like.
UPDATE: Gen Con Indy Report, Robotech®, Rifts® and more
[..] One high point at Gen Con (and there were a number of them) was meeting and chatting with legendary modeler and Creative Director at Spartan Games, Neil Fawcett. Neil was very gracious with his time and input.
He looked over Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and he liked what he saw.
He loved the detail and expressed his opinion that the sculpts and sprues were of top notch quality.
He was sorry to hear that the factory had to, in effect, create new digital files from the STL files provided them, because it makes the tooling process so long and costly, but thought they did an excellent job.
He mentioned several times while looking over the various sprues (and finished built pieces) that “the factory did a really nice job for you.”
It was cool hearing that from a man with such experience and background.
Neil also offered us some advice for moving forward with Wave Two items, and liked the three new metal exclusives at the show; commenting that the quality, all round, was high. [..]
Wait, ....did the Siembiedassiah the vocal loyals are always appealing to as a source of authority likewise himself make an appeal to authority in an attempt to legitimize everything he has decided or let be done?
Was it just me or did Neals (from Spartan) comments read like he was trying his best not to diss RRT or Palladium? I imagine it stretched his diplomacy as much as it could.
Also, yeah. A lot of talk and nothing to show for wave 2. They're still talking with their manufacturing rep about what they want on their sprues -_- Which means it hasn't even been finalised.
I attended Gencon and only walked by the booth, I saw the con exclusives and didn't even bother looking at the blisters. At this point I have such a sense of apathy regarding the whole thing. Sure I'd like to see the rest of my stuff, but it's just getting harder and harder to actually care.
I had to chuckle about the light sales on con-exclusives... really, $22 a pop, one variant of a three-variant model... AND you're surprised? Ugh...
I'm on my phone so it's difficult to link but my YouTube recommended feed just popped up with an interview with Siembieda at Gencon on the gamergoggles channel. It unfortunately has the same horrible audio and interview style as his open house videos but it's something. Nothing new though... working on reducing the parts count and shooting for late 2015 or failing that early 2016.
I am a bit impressed by the candor about sales expectations in the weekly update though. The rest is the usual BS but that part surprised me (not the poorer than expected sales but rather the admission). Their booth last year and this year was double the size of previous years and even if they had record sales they likely expected much more from the much delayed "premiere" of robotech. I suspect they would have had what they wanted last year if karma hadn't kicked them in the crotch with a couple of weeks of unexpected delays on top of 40+ weeks of their own delays.
Merijeek wrote: Candor, or are they laying the groundwork for failure. Which will of course be the fault of the haters and people who didnY't quite clap hard enough
YEAH! Feth those guys! Raining on Kevin's parade, wanting to see progress on product they paid for over two years ago, trying to hold PB accountable to deadlines PB set for themselves, or questioning a miniature parts count that even the creators admit is excessive. And those ungrateful donkey caves expecting a response to queries about the status of the project over a year and a half passed due? You've got Kevin's word things are progressing, and a passive snarky response in the last update (the 12th Update in over 5 months since we saw any progress at all). Isn't that enough for you ingrates?
I bet Kevin misses the days when people would just passively await a Palladium release. Or the glory days of 2007/8 when he could ask fans for money in return for nothing. Actually being held to task for something doesn't seem to fit into his preferred business model.
The goal posts will move soon enough. Something else will cause the possibility of failure to be more likely.
Robotech Marines not selling as well as they'd hoped? Lack of interest in stuff they could already buy from the company producing conventional units? Rifts(tm)(r)(c)(blowme) movie options not renewed?
It would have to be something that's not their fault. So it needs to be ungrateful ingrates, haters, or maybe the vagaries of the market. Or, you know, unappreciated genius.
Maybe it'll be COT2: Kevin's Mom's Fridge Is Bare. Something.
if I were a betting man, I think it will the end of the month when KS wil finally come out and admit that wave 2 will not be ready until Q1 2016 but delivery will be in Q2 at earliest.
This will come with another epic 24 page ramble about how everyone ruins KS's big vision and how it really hurts him to not be able to give us this product. he cares you know, he really does.....
He is already in a big holle, but seems to think just standing there digging to make it deeper will somehow sort it out in the end
But to make it up to you, the loyal fans, whom he respects so much, we'll give you, the BACKERS, the exclusive first opportunity to order the RobotechTMTacticsTMProtocultureTMNailClippersTM that we've been working hard to bring you. Our small but talented staff has been putting in long hours seven days a week for months growing their nails to test these out to make sure that the valued FANS who made this project happen get the best. A few legendary game designers like Gary Gygax and HG Wells were shown this revolutionary product at gencon this past week and they couldn't stop commenting about just how high quality it is and that we shouldn't go so above and beyond for the fans. They're limited edition and only available to backers for a few weeks before the general public so get them fast for only $18 plus S&H.
I hope I got the cadence, verbage, and windows notepad emphasis that he places on things he actually doesn't care about but wants to pretend that he does.
I hope I got the cadence, verbage, and windows notepad emphasis that he places on things he actually doesn't care about but wants to pretend that he does.
wilycoyote wrote: He is already in a big holle, but seems to think just standing there digging to make it deeper will somehow sort it out in the end
It's not any big old' hole, they're digging a hole straight to China. That way they can fast track the delivery of their RRT products, China can simply throw their stuff into the giant hole and it leads straight to Detroit in order to bypass customs. It's like two hells united.
*Sigh* I'm going to regret this, but I ordered the Marines book off Amazon. Despite the two 1 star reviews. I guess I just have to see how bad this book is for myself.
Well, another minor contribution to the Wave 2 fund. Slowly getting us closer to delivery in 2116.
It's not any big old' hole, they're digging a hole straight to China. That way they can fast track the delivery of their RRT products, China can simply throw their stuff into the giant hole and it leads straight to Detroit in order to bypass customs. It's like two hells united.
You know, according to QI a hole straight through the Earth would take like 90 or so minutes to fall from one end to the other. And if you timed it right, the shipment would be at a complete standstill the moment it popped through the other side.
I hope I got the cadence, verbage, and windows notepad emphasis that he places on things he actually doesn't care about but wants to pretend that he does.
Have you ever considered snarking professionally?
I know it may be hard to believe but I am not reimbursed in any way by Dakka for being grumpy. My snark is purely gratis. Outside of some television shows and novelty restaurants, it's hard make a living off of telling those damn kids to get of your lawn.
I know it may be hard to believe but I am not reimbursed in any way by Dakka for being grumpy. My snark is purely gratis. Outside of some television shows and novelty restaurants, it's hard make a living off of telling those damn kids to get of your lawn.
Asterios wrote: well at the current rate i'll Have my stuff long before PB ever finishes up their stuff:
Spoiler:
Gah! Unseen part 2!!
Put that away before a lawyer sees it!
(Awesome looking by the way).
Obviously inferior products: they probably had less than 10 pieces each, for shame!
Let me know the name of your "tailor"...
Asterios wrote: well at the current rate i'll Have my stuff long before PB ever finishes up their stuff:
Spoiler:
Gah! Unseen part 2!!
Put that away before a lawyer sees it!
(Awesome looking by the way).
Obviously inferior products: they probably had less than 10 pieces each, for shame!
Let me know the name of your "tailor"...
actually 1 piece models, except for the Bioroid is one piece and the sled is one piece, gonna be working on some invid soon, but still understanding this 3D design process and curves not my strong suit
Asterios wrote: actually 1 piece models, except for the Bioroid is one piece and the sled is one piece, gonna be working on some invid soon, but still understanding this 3D design process and curves not my strong suit my tailor is a Form 1
I kinda figured it would be a 3d print but had to allow for a "reasonable" number of parts.
Nice machine that Form 1, bit pricy but for what it does it is a good price.
Makes me want to practice SolidWorks more.
Anyway, Wave2!
Gencon hangover should be over!
Asterios, you just keep doing what you are doing... fun stuff.
I already gave up on PB producing anymore RRT game pieces, they are in a downward spiral and refuse to do anything about it, as for me I will have my pieces for wave 2 and other generations.
So I had my first versus Robotech game this weekend and it confirmed a few things (that I didn't like) as well as brought up a few new ones that I figured I'd run by you guys. I definitely don't like (and never did) the all or nothing nature of things like dodges and anti-missile for multiple volley incoming rounds. Does anyone else feel that is too much randomness with no nuance? The second thing that came up is whether or not aircraft (flying and/or afterburning) get cover bonuses. They ignore terrain for movement but I didn't see anything about them not being able to utilize cover from things like a tree and such. Did I miss that somewhere in the rules?
On a more preference note, the small demo I played (just 110pts) had a zentraedi squadron and it seems like it is more efficient for them to specialize. I had a recon squadron plus an artillery support card but it seems like in bigger games it is better to go with regult spam all in one and have the other pods off in a separate arty squadron in order to better capitalize on the respawn mechanic.
warboss wrote: So I had my first versus Robotech game this weekend and it confirmed a few things (that I didn't like) as well as brought up a few new ones that I figured I'd run by you guys. I definitely don't like (and never did) the all or nothing nature of things like dodges and anti-missile for multiple volley incoming rounds. Does anyone else feel that is too much randomness with no nuance? The second thing that came up is whether or not aircraft (flying and/or afterburning) get cover bonuses. They ignore terrain for movement but I didn't see anything about them not being able to utilize cover from things like a tree and such. Did I miss that somewhere in the rules?
On a more preference note, the small demo I played (just 110pts) had a zentraedi squadron and it seems like it is more efficient for them to specialize. I had a recon squadron plus an artillery support card but it seems like in bigger games it is better to go with regult spam all in one and have the other pods off in a separate arty squadron in order to better capitalize on the respawn mechanic.
I don't know Warboss, I guess this is personal preference but I prefer the do or die to dodging over the taking 100 hits of Battletech. Now, remember, it's a single dodge per attack. So if you are shot at by 4 pods, you have to dodge 4 times. Since PIL skill has to do with dodge and GN with you hitting a higher GN can make a huge difference in having a hit high enough that the opponent needs a 6 to dodge. The PIL is also huge so that you can dodge if you are hit.
Now cover works for whatever unit you have. If you have a fighter behind a tree line he gets just as much cover as a Destroid or Pod hiding in the woods. You can fly Guardian mode veritechs low in some woods or behind a tree line to get cover. Remember, most terrain like trees is based on a template/area and not just an individual tree. When you have template terrain it does not matter as long as you are in or behind the template, you get cover.
Your last point is all about strategy. Arty Pods can be nasty but they come with limited ammo and no Anti-Missile. Scouts and Glaugs are you friends, always.
I've found resolving dodges, missile and anti-missile fire can bog things down. Especially when you choose to split up missile volleys to hit multiple targets. While it would be nice to add in a roll to determine how many missiles in a volley get shot down, that would slow things down even more. I wish they adopted something similar to Heavy Gear where you can choose your stance (normal, defensive or full defensive) for appropriate modifiers.
While it isn't clearly spelled out either way, I've played that anything using flight to ignore terrain for movement is flying over the terrain and not getting cover. If you're behind area terrain, you use TLOS and if you can't see the target because of intervening terrain, you can't shoot at it unless you've got a blast weapon to shoot the nearby ground assuming you either saw the target mask itself, someone with LOS is providing targeting data or you've got them on some sort of sensor.
Because of the way things are based, TLOS is somewhat problematic. PB should have given things height levels. Flyers are at a certain height level and targeting/cover/concealment should be calculated using the model's base and elevation level.
Given that units are only grouped into units for activation purposes, there isn't as much a benefit to specialize as you can leave your artillery support pods behind while your regular pods advance. In fact, splitting them up also means you don't fire them all in the same activation either though aside from focus fire and accurate, there doesn't seem to be a movement penalty for shooting.
warboss wrote: So I had my first versus Robotech game this weekend and it confirmed a few things (that I didn't like) as well as brought up a few new ones that I figured I'd run by you guys. I definitely don't like (and never did) the all or nothing nature of things like dodges and anti-missile for multiple volley incoming rounds. Does anyone else feel that is too much randomness with no nuance? The second thing that came up is whether or not aircraft (flying and/or afterburning) get cover bonuses. They ignore terrain for movement but I didn't see anything about them not being able to utilize cover from things like a tree and such. Did I miss that somewhere in the rules?
On a more preference note, the small demo I played (just 110pts) had a zentraedi squadron and it seems like it is more efficient for them to specialize. I had a recon squadron plus an artillery support card but it seems like in bigger games it is better to go with regult spam all in one and have the other pods off in a separate arty squadron in order to better capitalize on the respawn mechanic.
One thought to speed things up is to make it so that when you dodge roll total is equal to the attack roll total you cannot dodge but take half damage as if you had rolled and count the command point you spent to dodge as the command point you spent to Roll with Impact. Then eliminate the Roll with Impact in any other case.
cannonfodr wrote: I've found resolving dodges, missile and anti-missile fire can bog things down. Especially when you choose to split up missile volleys to hit multiple targets. While it would be nice to add in a roll to determine how many missiles in a volley get shot down, that would slow things down even more. I wish they adopted something similar to Heavy Gear where you can choose your stance (normal, defensive or full defensive) for appropriate modifiers.
The solution I came up with is to roll 1 anti-missile die per missile. So if you're attacked by a volley of 4 missiles, you roll 4 dice to see just how many you shoot down. While by definition it does slow the game down a bit (you get damage applied more often but it is usually less often), it's adding a small amount of effort to an existing roll and calculation you have to do. YMMV.
Naw, the idea is that the missiles are coming in as a small group and if you blow one the explosion kills the rest. Doing it on a one to one basis makes missiles way too powerful and would take forever against things like FPA that fire 8 at a time.
Mike1975 wrote: Naw, the idea is that the missiles are coming in as a small group and if you blow one the explosion kills the rest. Doing it on a one to one basis makes missiles way too powerful and would take forever against things like FPA that fire 8 at a time.
It might be overpowered but that determination requires further testing and I admit that I haven't tried it with the FPA. Saying that it would "take forever" is more than a bit of an exaggeration. You roll 8 dice instead of one and find the 5's and 6's and subtract that many from the missiles that hit. That at most adds 10-15 seconds to an interaction if it is shooting all eight at one target. Also, if anything in macross, the missiles go crazy and fly every which way from different angles toward the target, not as a coherent group the entire way. Again, YMMV and I agree it adds something to the time of the interaction but, at least for me, it is counterbalanced by losing the all or nothing aspect.
In my small demo game, both the heavy arty pods fired their four missiles in one volley and did absolutely nothing against their respective targets because I rolled twice on the upper third of the die rolled.
Mike1975 wrote: Naw, the idea is that the missiles are coming in as a small group and if you blow one the explosion kills the rest. Doing it on a one to one basis makes missiles way too powerful and would take forever against things like FPA that fire 8 at a time.
It might be overpowered but that determination requires further testing and I admit that I haven't tried it with the FPA. Saying that it would "take forever" is more than a bit of an exaggeration. You roll 8 dice instead of one and find the 5's and 6's and subtract that many from the missiles that hit. That at most adds 10-15 seconds to an interaction if it is shooting all eight at one target.
We tried playing it like you suggest: try to shoot down one missile at a time.
Makes it a real nail biter when you want to get the volley down to less than 4 missiles so you can dodge! Then we would try to dodge whatever got through.
We made "roll with impact" needing a 2+ for each hit rather (still only spend one point for the opportunity) than by spending the point you automatically get it reduced to half.
Missiles are nasty enough, getting that dreaded 1 is scary.
We wanted to reflect the anime a bit: the desperate antimissile shooting, then the frantic dodging, then the getting blasted to the ground, rolling and trying not to get squashed by the other missiles that followed.
We felt also that "fast movers" should get a +1 like the Guardian due to being "hard to hit" and should not block line of sight. We felt normal line of sight rules apply (flying "nap of the earth").
You get plenty of opportunity fire on them since movement is quite restrictive with them. It was harder than I thought just to fly up onto the top of a building. Speaking of that: building hitpoints suck: 2-3X what they are at least should be applied.
Again, playing straight-up is fine, we just feel a little more drama is our preference.
PB wishes they could use this as an excuse, but sadly for PB the warehouse that blew up was storing explosives for the construction being done around it for other buildings.
While it isn't clearly spelled out either way, I've played that anything using flight to ignore terrain for movement is flying over the terrain and not getting cover. If you're behind area terrain, you use TLOS and if you can't see the target because of intervening terrain, you can't shoot at it unless you've got a blast weapon to shoot the nearby ground assuming you either saw the target mask itself, someone with LOS is providing targeting data or you've got them on some sort of sensor.
Because of the way things are based, TLOS is somewhat problematic. PB should have given things height levels. Flyers are at a certain height level and targeting/cover/concealment should be calculated using the model's base and elevation level.
Vertical distance and flight are issues I have with the rules. On one page it states that vertical distance isn't considered at all, like a boardgame. On other pages, it clearly uses vertical distance to determine things.
If miniatures can fly over something, they should be higher than it. I haven't actually based my flying units yet because I'm not sure what height I want to put them at. The fighters being less than a inch above the ground is ridiculous to me. I also don't like that the rules seem to say that you can basically "fly" over very tall terrain that would actually take more movement than the unit has to fly over. The rules are weak in this regard and I hope the "advanced" rules address this. I'm going to end up house ruling this stuff and it's pretty basic stuff for a miniatures game.
Continuously bouncing about as if using a nuclear-powered ninja pogo stick, as found in every genre from Warcraft (fantasy) to Hawken (mecha), unfortunately seems to be exactly what most folks do want in their gaming no matter the type.
Those finding it silly appear to be in such a small minority as to be utterly inconsequential when someone amongst TPTB at [X] company broaches the subject while designing any game nowadays.
I don't have an issue with pods doing that as they do it in the show and they need to have some speed in game as well. It was a bit jarring to see it the first time and I think I would have preferred leap allowing them to ignore terrain/obstacles during their move but not before or after (as opposed to aircraft) but I see why they have it. Pods get slaughtered en masse and need to close to fire.
I don't however want to see it in stuff like Heavy Gear Assault but did in their recent gameplay demos. It reminded me of the early days of Medal of Honor Allied Assault watching the american team bunny hop leaning left and right mid hop to avoid shots.
Asterios wrote: my question is how can something ignore terrain while using it ?
Yes, that is what I asked earlier in the case of flying aircraft... but that isn't the case either conceptually or mechanically with "leap". They ignore terrain for a part of their movement and then literally and figuratively come back down to earth at the end of the movement until their next activation. There is no cognitive disonance there that I can see since they're never simultaneously using it yet ignoring it.
I'd like to think I am not in a minority when it comes to something with a 5" leap able to effectively move many multiples of that because it is allowed to ignore the height of the terrain it is leaping over.
As it is, I think a 5" leap should allow you to leap 5". If I have a two foot tall building, a 5" leap that puts the model on the other side of that building is ridiculous.
Similarly, I don't care if the rules claim fighters are flying "nape of the earth", no fighter pilot is going to fly 20 feet off of the ground.
Asterios wrote: my question is how can something ignore terrain while using it ?
Yes, that is what I asked earlier in the case of flying aircraft... but that isn't the case either conceptually or mechanically with "leap". They ignore terrain for a part of their movement and then literally and figuratively come back down to earth at the end of the movement until their next activation. There is no cognitive disonance there that I can see since they're never simultaneously using it yet ignoring it.
ok warboss lets expound on these 2 areas then shall we?:
1: super leap able to bound over a 36" high building in a single leap, no other game does that, every other game has the leap height same height as their movement height.
2: use of Terrain while not being obstructed by terrain, so you have a fighter 1/2" away from a building (heck they couldn't even do that on the show) it can ignore the terrain, even fly thru it, yet if it comes under fire it can use the terrain to block LoS ? is this what your saying? cause that is what the rules are saying.
Asterios wrote: my question is how can something ignore terrain while using it ?
Yes, that is what I asked earlier in the case of flying aircraft... but that isn't the case either conceptually or mechanically with "leap". They ignore terrain for a part of their movement and then literally and figuratively come back down to earth at the end of the movement until their next activation. There is no cognitive disonance there that I can see since they're never simultaneously using it yet ignoring it.
ok warboss lets expound on these 2 areas then shall we?:
1: super leap able to bound over a 36" high building in a single leap, no other game does that, every other game has the leap height same height as their movement height.
2: use of Terrain while not being obstructed by terrain, so you have a fighter 1/2" away from a building (heck they couldn't even do that on the show) it can ignore the terrain, even fly thru it, yet if it comes under fire it can use the terrain to block LoS ? is this what your saying? cause that is what the rules are saying.
I understand the point but how often do you seriously use 3 foot tall buildings? Really?
I did have this problem when I had some 9 inch tall structures I made from some foam from a Ceiling Fan. It was a Destroid Hangar. I basically said if a unit can leap 5 it can only get up or over buildings that are 5 inches tall. That was personal house rule.
If I had a VT that was flying around I basically said it can only shift height up to half the distance it moves. So if you have a fighter that moves 9 inches it can only go up or down up to 4.5 inches. Or the other option is that if you want to fly up and over a taller object you have to use movement on vertical movement.
This was a fast paced fix that I use personally. I did write up some elevation rules somewhere for a full blown height addition to the game where every level was considered 6 inches and that you used a die to show height. No die meant height is as shown with the mini. A 1 on a six sided die represents that the unit is 6 inches above the surface that they are on. 2 was 12 inches and so on so that you could use a 6 sided die, we all have more than enough of those, and use those for range. If a unit had a 1 on the die and was 11 inches away on the horiziontal I considered that a range of 17 inches for simplicity. Yes, I'm an engineer and know that the real angle would make the range something more like 14 inches but it works and was simple. So you added 6 inches for every pip shown on the dice for range. This allows units like the VT to stay up in the air and rain missiles down on pods. Which makes sense. It also means that units in the air likely have zero cover, which also makes sense. Then you have where you can simply fly above the carnage and avoid the melee. This means air support can turn the tide if used right.
Flight on the other hand is all considered nape of the Earth so fighters could magically fly up and over something and right back down and hide behind it. It was done to keep the game simple. RRT is unique in that is it the only game that has mecha that can transform and move in a variety of different ways. I prefer a bit more complicated approach. Some also wanted to use curves to determine turns instead of the 90 degree turns we have now. Again, some realism is sacrificed. This is a minis game, a simulation, after all. Advanced rules may well take care of this.
Instead of worrying over it figure out some rules that can be used in their place and may be presented as alternative rules for the game.
Asterios wrote: my question is how can something ignore terrain while using it ?
Yes, that is what I asked earlier in the case of flying aircraft... but that isn't the case either conceptually or mechanically with "leap". They ignore terrain for a part of their movement and then literally and figuratively come back down to earth at the end of the movement until their next activation. There is no cognitive disonance there that I can see since they're never simultaneously using it yet ignoring it.
ok warboss lets expound on these 2 areas then shall we?:
1: super leap able to bound over a 36" high building in a single leap, no other game does that, every other game has the leap height same height as their movement height.
2: use of Terrain while not being obstructed by terrain, so you have a fighter 1/2" away from a building (heck they couldn't even do that on the show) it can ignore the terrain, even fly thru it, yet if it comes under fire it can use the terrain to block LoS ? is this what your saying? cause that is what the rules are saying.
#2: Yes, that is currently the case and I don't like it which is why I brought it up. Your jet fighter flies "above" a forest but as soon as you finish your movement you're inbetween the branches for shooting (your own and your opponent's)
#1: It's an extreme case and I don't like it but I still view it as less of a paradox than fighters using cover yet SIMULTANEOUSLY ignoring it in the same turn. With Leap, there is a defined beginning and end to the ignoring. I would however prefer if they limited the height of what it can ignore to the distance of the leap (so 5" up and forward max for pods) in an FAQ. As for no other game doing that, the MOST POPULAR game in our hobby does that (40k) and has for the 17 years I've been playing it. With jump packs (which allow you to jump like leap but NOT fly), you just ignore intervening cover with no limit.
I find the first example to be bothersome to the point of needing change but the second acceptable as a game mechanic compromise (although as I said I'd prefer if they included a hieght limit).
I understand the point but how often do you seriously use 3 foot tall buildings? Really?
They're out there but admittedly it's a fringe case for terrain and in all likelihood 28mm. LOL, at 6mm it would end up being the UNSPACY HQ that got destroyed in Macross II. I wouldn't use it in Robotech but this is from my store's 40kapoc game that I attended a few years back.
Flight on the other hand is all considered nape of the Earth so fighters could magically fly up and over something and right back down and hide behind it. It was done to keep the game simple. RRT is unique in that is it the only game that has mecha that can transform and move in a variety of different ways. I prefer a bit more complicated approach. Some also wanted to use curves to determine turns instead of the 90 degree turns we have now. Again, some realism is sacrificed. This is a minis game, a simulation, after all. Advanced rules may well take care of this.
Instead of worrying over it figure out some rules that can be used in their place and may be presented as alternative rules for the game.
I'd argue that using ANY aircraft on the tabletop automatically makes it "nape of the earth" flying instead of higher altitude but that shouldn't give them access to using "cover" like bushes and trees. That's not flying but landing! I think a quick and easy fix for aircraft would be that they can't claim cover bonuses from cover unless that cover could potentially (from any angle) completely block LOS to the model on the flight swoosh stand. That way an airplane flying low between tall buildings can claim some cover but not from a bush that it's flight stand is in.
Mike1975 wrote: LOL, Warboss, at that scale, the question is never if you are in range. Everything would be in range with tanks on that scale!
Yup! During a 5th edition 40k tourney, I had a preset table that I was playing on and saw an opponent eying the huge building. I asked him if he wanted to have a gentlemen's agreement that we don't deploy higher than the 2nd floor (but can move during the game up further) like I had always done in friendly games since that effecticely makes anything up there invulnerable to assault and he vehemently disagreed. We then proceeded to roll for table sides and I got the one with the huge building and proceeded to place my two full squads of Tau Broadsides (think MACII destroids but without the blast weapon effect) up 5 stories up with LOS and 72" range to everything on the table with almost no cover that could be applied to them... just like he had planned to do to me. It didn't work out well for him after that...
LOL, yeah, my brothers and nephews play 40k actively. So I know what that is like. My brother painted his new broadside a few months ago and had sent me some pics.
On the topic of flyers and cover I would say "area terrain" is where you cannot claim it inside the cover.
Flying past/toward/up a tall structure like a bunch of trees or a building should be fine.
Moving over them you could figure that it is slower trying to "climb" higher but then diving down the other side they would get faster so it all works out in the wash!
I agree that bushes or a car garage (6mm scale!) starts getting "unrealistic" for cover, stands some 4-6" off the table would seem more appropriate for aircraft.
I like to think anything below the height of a Veritech is well into the ground clutter height that only a slow flying craft or with hover would attempt.
I understand it is ideal if the actual rules covered these things properly but I suspect I will not get to play any "exactly by the rules games" so I am not focusing on it as strongly.
I am a fan also of "realism" within the realm of the source material since we are trying to recreate those fun events so house rules become attractive if the rules do not simulate it well.
For height of movement, it is almost like they are trying to set the rules to a top-down view game.
I could plunk down 2D flat terrain with a "Blocks Line of Sight" label on it and be good to go (like playing MegaMek).
The issue of "super leap" I think I saw a few bits where the pods within Earth's atmosphere could fly in the show.
I would assume it is more efficient with their bounding methods, maybe saving fuel.
I always assumed those guys could "jump" as high as they needed.
What is neat with leap is you really have to think about it a bit when looking to jump on a building or onto another.
You only get to leap 5" and/or move 5" so unless buildings are within 5" of each other you would need 2 turns to get to the top of one or the other.
I find the difficulty of determining cover is less of a problem than how easily it can be blown away becoming a moot point.
Glad to see things come around to the rules because I am trying to get what fun I can out of what I have... wave 2 will sure extend the life of this game.
Mike1975 wrote: LOL, Warboss, at that scale, the question is never if you are in range. Everything would be in range with tanks on that scale!
Even at 6mm, were we to use realistic modern weapon ranges, most gaming tables would have the whole of it in range for all main guns in existence (for example, a 6mm M1 Abrams would have an effective range of about 29 feet). And that's for guns. Missiles would be able to do some laps first.
So yeah, I know you were joking, but it's not like 40k or 28mm games are the only ones that make concessions for gameability.
I've always considered range and movement on the tabletop to be more logarithmic scale than linear compared with reality. You really can't reliably do infantry versus jet fighter on a tabletop otherwise.
warboss wrote: I've always considered range and movement on the tabletop to be more logarithmic scale than linear compared with reality. You really can't reliably do infantry versus jet fighter on a tabletop otherwise.
OTOH, infantry vs. jetfighter is... weird, to say the least ^_^
But that is what lots of folks want to see on the tabletop though... mixed slices of different vehicles and weapons all used together on the tabletop. Since that is what customers want, a good game designer puts in acceptable abstractions without going hopefully too crazy. The side effect of having an infantryman with a 5kph average speed shooting down a 2,000kph speed fighter is that the infantryman moves 1/3 to 1/10 the range of a cruise missile in a given allotment of time where you can engage a single enemy/fire weapons once. That is the world we game in.
Well, the latest PBWU is out. There may or may not be a KS Update out this weekend, but based on the PBWU, it's unlikely to have anything of note.
The important parts.
"Especially with Wave 2 RRT products coming in the months ahead.". With nothing to show for it at this stage. I believe Kevin. He seems trustworthy and reliable.
Robotech Tactics "flash sale". Most things 30% off (Zentradi Addons excepted). Some RPG titles also 30% off.
Convention Exclusives due to ship next week. But are to remain available for KS Backers after that. Please give them money. They seem needy.
Conventional Vehicles now essentially have the caveat of "Preorder, but if we don't get sufficient quantities, we may not do them.". Which is really strange to me, because nothing on the current offering is unique to RRT. If the Cats Eye, or a specially minted Comanchero, that'd be different. But everything on the current list, is current GHQ stock. All that's needed is printed material for the blisterpacks (blister card and stat cards). And given the former has already been shown, and the latter should be trivial once the stats are done, why is that an issue?
Speaking of, the last KS Update was titled "Exclusives Order Deadline Extended". Looks like the next one is going to need to be as well (current deadline expires in less than 35 hours). Because they're still working on it. They'll be done, you guessed it, soon.
Then there's a couple lines giving no real information on upcoming RPG titles. It's scant, but it's more than Wave 2 gets mentioned.
Then 4 pages of advertising for "branded" clothing and bags.
Then 2 significant entries on products that Kevin likes, followed by the usual cut and paste of their gaming catalog.
And that's it, pretty much. Nothing new. Things happening "soon" though.
warboss wrote: They're out there but admittedly it's a fringe case for terrain and in all likelihood 28mm. LOL, at 6mm it would end up being the UNSPACY HQ that got destroyed in Macross II. I wouldn't use it in Robotech but this is from my store's 40kapoc game that I attended a few years back.
It is awesome that your gaming group makes huge stuff; however, when stuff gets that big, I think one should be playing 6mm Epic, rather than 30mm 40k... Even in Epic, a 4-foot Mega-Gargant stands nearly a foot tall...
I agree somewhat. I limited my participation in apoc games to 1-2 times a year as a change of pace since I frankly didn't like the "just remove whole units with no interaction on your part" gameplay but it allowed me to do stupid stuff occasionally like field a drop pod of all the eternal warrior HQs superfriends (and one legion of doom member) that took down an emperor titan together. I stopped going to the apoc events when GW forced that gameplay style into every game of 40k as standard.
warboss wrote: I agree somewhat. I limited my participation in apoc games to 1-2 times a year as a change of pace since I frankly didn't like the "just remove whole units with no interaction on your part" gameplay but it allowed me to do stupid stuff occasionally like field a drop pod of all the eternal warrior HQs superfriends (and one legion of doom member) that took down an emperor titan together. I stopped going to the apoc events when GW forced that gameplay style into every game of 40k as standard.
Armageddon dropping in an entire SM chapter house it was ugly. and that was just me.
Wow... just took a peek at the weekly update and we now have MORE information given to us in one update about a stupid fething sound system with LED lights to jazz up your next wedding or bar mitzvah than we've gotten about wave 2 in 6 months.
warboss wrote: Wow... just took a peek at the weekly update and we now have MORE information given to us in one update about a stupid fething sound system with LED lights to jazz up your next wedding or bar mitzvah than we've gotten about wave 2 in 6 months.
warboss wrote: Wow... just took a peek at the weekly update and we now have MORE information given to us in one update about a stupid fething sound system with LED lights to jazz up your next wedding or bar mitzvah than we've gotten about wave 2 in 6 months.
yes sad isn't it.
who knows maybe we might get a KS update Sunday night after their meeting just for them to tell us about the conventional stuff and how there will be no deadline on the con exclusive items?
warboss wrote: Wow... just took a peek at the weekly update and we now have MORE information given to us in one update about a stupid fething sound system with LED lights to jazz up your next wedding or bar mitzvah than we've gotten about wave 2 in 6 months.
Yeah, that's because that sound and light system has that super special quality known as "existing".
Some manufacturers make fairly large buildings and if you pack them on your table in a realistic manner, their height becomes an issue to the lack of vertical distance rules. I see a lot of people play with the DZC stuff and have single buildings per block. Nothing wrong with that but I plan on something more elaborate.
I don't expect calculus or trig, simple movement rules for height are not difficult to achieve.
Building damage also seems ill-conceived.
The rules overall are pretty good but they do have these points that I find needing houserules. Since I am not a tournament gamer this isn't such an issue for me, but it would be nice to see them fleshed out more.
Height rules would also give us three dimensional space battles. I was expecting some interesting rules for space battles but we didn't get any. I was envisioning maybe multiple planes of table space.
Height rules would also give us three dimensional space battles. I was expecting some interesting rules for space battles but we didn't get any. I was envisioning maybe multiple planes of table space.
yeah love how they say we can have space battles and thats it, they don't bother with orientation or anything, case remember in space there is no up or down, there is just your orientation of it, so how would that effect directional fire? and such?
who wants fast? I want big and fun. my last big battle was Armageddon chapter house of my Kraken Guard and a support unit of IG's killing greenskins, it was big it was bloody and it was not over in a day, let alone an hour or two
Asterios wrote: who wants fast? I want big and fun. my last big battle was Armageddon chapter house of my Kraken Guard and a support unit of IG's killing greenskins, it was big it was bloody and it was not over in a day, let alone an hour or two
... so throw a couple thousand points per side on a basement over a weekend.
How quickly paced the game (mechanically) should be is incidental to the scope one plays at in terms of rules. More interactions can bump up potential options/considerations, but how long it takes to calculate range/modifiers one to one isn't particularly relevant to the scope of conflict.
Like, I'm not one to defend the game, obviously, but this feels like a complete non-sequitur.
That seems like a spurious statement. Surely there are ground or sea based miniatures games that don't worry about height/elevation.
RRT even says it ignores elevation on page 10 of the rule book.
Apologies for the pedantry, but stating it definitively like that is just begging to either fail immediately or be 'no true Scotsman'd'. (as in, "oh, X isn't a real mini's game")
Asterios wrote: who wants fast? I want big and fun. my last big battle was Armageddon chapter house of my Kraken Guard and a support unit of IG's killing greenskins, it was big it was bloody and it was not over in a day, let alone an hour or two
... so throw a couple thousand points per side on a basement over a weekend.
How quickly paced the game (mechanically) should be is incidental to the scope one plays at in terms of rules. More interactions can bump up potential options/considerations, but how long it takes to calculate range/modifiers one to one isn't particularly relevant to the scope of conflict.
Like, I'm not one to defend the game, obviously, but this feels like a complete non-sequitur.
look at 40K a player wants to send their guy up a building he can only go his allotted distance, not a free up.
also only certain things can fire at fliers and such, because to do otherwise would be silly.
Asterios wrote: look at 40K a player wants to send their guy up a building he can only go his allotted distance, not a free up.
also only certain things can fire at fliers and such, because to do otherwise would be silly.
I still don't understand what this has to do with the game being fast paced or how distance is calculated.
Going back over the conversation, it started about height and allowing for more gradiation in space battles, as opposed to a single 2D plane. Meri pointed out that no 'fast paced' games use such complicated tracking, you responded with a comment on game size/scope/scale.
It feels like there's a post or three missing from the conversation.
Asterios wrote: look at 40K a player wants to send their guy up a building he can only go his allotted distance, not a free up.
also only certain things can fire at fliers and such, because to do otherwise would be silly.
I still don't understand what this has to do with the game being fast paced or how distance is calculated.
Going back over the conversation, it started about height and allowing for more gradiation in space battles, as opposed to a single 2D plane. Meri pointed out that no 'fast paced' games use such complicated tracking, you responded with a comment on game size/scope/scale.
It feels like there's a post or three missing from the conversation.
the original convo was about pods and their leaping abilities say their movement is 10 they are here and there is a building 3" wide with a space 2" between it and a river that goes 3" wide, and yet the rules say they can leap both building and river and land on the other side with no problem like they walked across a field.
You can make a SINGLE Leap in a turn up to 5 inches. if you have a Speed of 5. 7 inches if you have a Speed of 7 like the Glaug.
So you can move up to the building, leap over it, then up to the river front. If the river is rough terrain you would move the rest of your movement into the river at the cost of 2 inches of movement per inch moved.
Mike1975 wrote: Uh, what? Did you even read LEAP? No Rick....
You can make a SINGLE Leap in a turn up to 5 inches.
So you can move up to the building, leap over it, then up to the river front. If the river is rough terrain you would move the rest of your movement into the river at the cost of 2 inches of movement per inch moved.
wrong, I was using it as a baseline without breaking any PB official rules by giving actual distance, but fine we shall go with 5" you have a 2" wide building (that is say 6" tall), with a 1" wide forest followed by another 2" wide river, the pod is right next to the building, according to the rules it can leap over all of that land on the other side with no ill effects. also forget they can't see where they are landing and such.
Which is a very big difference from making two leaps as you had in the previous example...now you turn it into a single leap by shortening the distances.
If you assume a power assisted leap like in Battle tech you can adjust mid-leap and so you don't need to see where you land so that isn't relevant.
Mike1975 wrote: Which is a very big difference from making two leaps as you had in the previous example...now you turn it into a single leap by shortening the distances.
If you assume a power assisted leap like in Battle tech you can adjust mid-leap and so you don't need to see where you land so that isn't relevant.
but in Battletech they also have rules so such a leap is not so easy either., plus they also limit the height distance leaped too.
All PB did was give mechs a VTOL function and called it leap.
Leap is interesting since it's rule is much like jetpacks in 40k: it is sometimes critical if you move then leap or leap then move.
If buildings are further than 4" away it takes 2 turns to go to rooftop to rooftop (can move 5 but need to get base from roof to roof).
Guardian Veritechs still mess me up that they cannot "jet/hover" onto a rooftop.
Talizvar wrote: Leap is interesting since it's rule is much like jetpacks in 40k: it is sometimes critical if you move then leap or leap then move.
If buildings are further than 4" away it takes 2 turns to go to rooftop to rooftop (can move 5 but need to get base from roof to roof).
Guardian Veritechs still mess me up that they cannot "jet/hover" onto a rooftop.
Why do the guardians mess you up? They have flight and can ignore underlying terrain and hence can freely land on anything.
Talizvar wrote: Leap is interesting since it's rule is much like jetpacks in 40k: it is sometimes critical if you move then leap or leap then move.
If buildings are further than 4" away it takes 2 turns to go to rooftop to rooftop (can move 5 but need to get base from roof to roof).
Guardian Veritechs still mess me up that they cannot "jet/hover" onto a rooftop.
Why do the guardians mess you up? They have flight and can ignore underlying terrain and hence can freely land on anything.
Mike they do not have flight, they have hover which allows them to hover just above the ground, so no they cannot hover up to a roof top.
in other words Hover does not allow them to ignore that 6" high building and or land on it.
Hover
*snip*
A hovering mecha isn't actually touching the ground, so it treats rough terrain as open terrain for purposes of movement. Although a hovering mecha may ignore rough terrain, it cannot ignore vertical surfaces taller than the mecha unless it has some other special ability allowing it to do so
So... depending on how high up the Guardian is modeled, I guess it's both; it would be able to mount a structure if it's on a high enough peg?
This little bit of reading led to the further realization that despite all alleged efforts to be show accurate, Battloids can neither hover nor fly? Because they definitely did that in the show.
Actually I was looking in the book, which is laid out in a somewhat counterintuitive way at a casual glance (in that I looked at the Fighter and saw a bunch of flying related stuff, saw the Guardian and noted Hover, and then nothing for the Battloid).
Easy there tiger.
But thanks for correcting the oversight, if in a somewhat... aggressive fashion.
Actually I was responding to Rick. The information is pretty clearly placed in the same spot as it is with the Destroids and all the other non-variable mecha. It seems counter-intuitive with the variable modes since some people expect it to show under each and every mode. I made the same mistake originally and after a bit realized the error. It's right under the MDC because it applies to all modes so is redundant to write in for each individual mode.
Okay... glad we had this discussion.
So a battleoid form Veritech has flight. Am I the only idiot here? (correction, others admit missing as well... still in shock)
Now it can do all the things in the shows.
I am a wee bit upset not seeing this earlier.
Now going back and reading cards a little more critically.
Talizvar wrote: Okay... glad we had this discussion. So a battleoid form Veritech has flight. Am I the only idiot here? (correction, others admit missing as well... still in shock) Now it can do all the things in the shows. I am a wee bit upset not seeing this earlier. Now going back and reading cards a little more critically.
I missed that as well. My battloids twice entered terrain and spent 2x their movement to get a crappy shot in my game last weekend. There was an obvious progression on the other stats from just walking to hover to aircraft which might grant flight as well (gotta double check that). I just didn't notice the general flight trait for all three.
Real simple. Hands and what they do are straight forward. If you don't read and understand what Hover is then you never realize that with just Hands and Hover then you never get that WTH moment where you realize the guardian mode should have something else. Much of the problem comes from people assuming they know what Hover is. Hover was really badly named. It just means the unit is quick and hard to hit. Nothing more.
Forar wrote: That seems like a spurious statement. Surely there are ground or sea based miniatures games that don't worry about height/elevation.
RRT even says it ignores elevation on page 10 of the rule book.
Apologies for the pedantry, but stating it definitively like that is just begging to either fail immediately or be 'no true Scotsman'd'. (as in, "oh, X isn't a real mini's game")
Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional. But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions.
RRT tells us to ignore vertical distance and then procedes to give us rules regarding vertical distance. Can't have it both ways and it is riduculous to tell everyone to play on flat, empty planes. It ignores the fundamental nature of playing in a three dimensional environment.
Asterios wrote: yeah my point other then the destroids what the hell good is terrain for ?
To block line of sight until you get there?
Not that one squad of pods could not blow it all away in one turn.
Had a couple moments of getting cover behind a building, getting it shot-up, then getting unloaded on.
Secondary reason: to look pretty?
Third use: for some units to fall off of after it is shot out from under them?
Yep, tapped out here.
Plus destroids, Zen Infantry, and more don't ignore terrain. Pods only ignore terrain during their Leap. You last example remember? It shows that Pods need to spend a bit choosing when to jump. Just because some units can fly over terrain is no reason to freak out....again.
Then you'll have foot infantry and Bioroids and much more that will have to deal with terrain. Southern Cross Battloids. Masters Terminator Infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's pretend I have 3 units next to some "Rough" terrain. Let's say the terrain is about 8 inches across and it is some heavy woods. They all need to get past it and use it to advance and for cover bonuses.
One is a Tomahawk without any movement modifiers/modes. Another is a Battleod with a Leap of 5. The last is a Male Power Armor or Veritech with a Move of 5 and Flight.
The Tomahawk has no way to mitigate the terrain and will move at half speed only moving 2.5 inches a turn and take 3 turns to pass through the woods. Ouch
The Pod can leap 5 inches into the woods and then move another 2.5 inches with his 5 inches of normal movement. In one turn he will be to the edge of the woods, have cover, and then next turn will need to decide to stay or move.
The Veritech or Male Power Armor can move a full 5 inches due to flight but then is in the middle and next turn he can move to the edge and stay in the woods or, in the case of the veritech, transform. Point is, they will be more than halfway through but not all the way like the Pod. They can fly but not very fast.
So does terrain make a difference here? You decide.
What does shoot some things in the foot are buildings and how easy they made them to blow up. They need to be 4x as strong or have rules aginst the UEDF wantonly destroying buildings.
Now as far as measuring range. I'm on the fence because mini to mini makes more sense and I pointed that out ages ago. The reason I think it was done the way it was, or at least the way I understand it, is that if you have a bunch of pods together, and unit love to stay in Close Formation, and you want to measure from one pod to a target, often terrain like tress and lampposts can be on the table and get knocked down if you are not careful. Measuring vertically, while less intuitive and realistic, removes the problem of knocking things over as you measure range. Personally I prefer to take the chance of knocking things over, and have many times when I play.
n815e wrote: Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional.
But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions.
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, boardgame pieces aren't 2 dimensional either. Even thin paper bits exist in all three dimensions.
But surely we've all realized by now that definitively stating things as absolutes is a futile endeavor. Regarding actual height/elevation, you mean to tell me you don't think there's a single miniatures game out there that ignores unit height/elevation? Because I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one.
RRT tells us to ignore vertical distance and then procedes to give us rules regarding vertical distance. Can't have it both ways and it is riduculous to tell everyone to play on flat, empty planes. It ignores the fundamental nature of playing in a three dimensional environment.
I think it's odd as well.
But that didn't seem to be what you were saying with that snippet of a statement earlier.
Mike1975 wrote: Plus destroids, Zen Infantry, and more don't ignore terrain. Pods only ignore terrain during their Leap. You last example remember? It shows that Pods need to spend a bit choosing when to jump. Just because some units can fly over terrain is no reason to freak out....again.
Then you'll have foot infantry and Bioroids and much more that will have to deal with terrain. Southern Cross Battloids. Masters Terminator Infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's pretend I have 3 units next to some "Rough" terrain. Let's say the terrain is about 8 inches across and it is some heavy woods. They all need to get past it and use it to advance and for cover bonuses.
One is a Tomahawk without any movement modifiers/modes. Another is a Battleod with a Leap of 5. The last is a Male Power Armor or Veritech with a Move of 5 and Flight.
The Tomahawk has no way to mitigate the terrain and will move at half speed only moving 2.5 inches a turn and take 3 turns to pass through the woods. Ouch
The Pod can leap 5 inches into the woods and then move another 2.5 inches with his 5 inches of normal movement. In one turn he will be to the edge of the woods, have cover, and then next turn will need to decide to stay or move.
The Veritech or Male Power Armor can move a full 5 inches due to flight but then is in the middle and next turn he can move to the edge and stay in the woods or, in the case of the veritech, transform. Point is, they will be more than halfway through but not all the way like the Pod. They can fly but not very fast.
So does terrain make a difference here? You decide.
What does shoot some things in the foot are buildings and how easy they made them to blow up. They need to be 4x as strong or have rules aginst the UEDF wantonly destroying buildings.
Now as far as measuring range. I'm on the fence because mini to mini makes more sense and I pointed that out ages ago. The reason I think it was done the way it was, or at least the way I understand it, is that if you have a bunch of pods together, and unit love to stay in Close Formation, and you want to measure from one pod to a target, often terrain like tress and lampposts can be on the table and get knocked down if you are not careful. Measuring vertically, while less intuitive and realistic, removes the problem of knocking things over as you measure range. Personally I prefer to take the chance of knocking things over, and have many times when I play.
ok say as the UEDF I have no Destroids, just veritechs, armored vertitechs and such which have flight, I am the Zentraedi with anything but Zentraedi soldiers.
so tell me what good is terrain then ? terrain is meant to be more then a line of site blocker, but also a modifier to movement, it can't modify movement if the blasted vehicles can ignore the movement.
Suppose I have all aircraft....what good is terrain then?
That idea is kinda ridiculous. You can ALWAYS build a force to specifically ignore terrain. It will also cost you a bit more since units that have flight generally cost more on a unit to unit basis.
Again, terrain as I explained does provide advantages to some units like in my example the Battlepod would take one turn crossing what MPA would take 2 turns to cross.
Then again there is the cover thingy. Terrain does more than block LOS, it provides cover. Makes you harder to hit. It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.
Again, there are plenty of things that are effected by the terrain. You can even add some Hazardous terrain that cannot be moved through like lava flows or a large set of water rapids or just use an open field and see what happens if that works for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid can fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.
Mike1975 wrote: It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.
Of course not.
We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.
Massed shooting and massed kicking has been painful.
I need to read the rules "again" to see how hand to hand is limited i.e. if it is only with "fast movers" because if Veritechs fly in all cases and ground based units cannont HtH flyers...
Anyway, you see where I am going with this because each time I was in bioroid or guardian mode when this happened and I thought they did not fly.
If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.
Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?
I think Mike was not sure if Asterios had an issue with a bioroid veritech being able to fly.
Pretty sure the hard-core fan in him would not object... It feels to me like they should "leap" since I cannot envision them doing the "superman" flying around, always seemed to be limited to quick "hops" or drops, at least jet or guardian would be more efficient for extended flight.
Mike1975 wrote: It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.
Of course not.
We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.
If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.
Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?
hate to say it, but yeah what Forar said, that Battlepod kickline is ugly plain and simple, and lava flows don't slow up flyers.
I've only had HTH a few times. Things are usually dead before HTH has any use except for the Spartan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of curiosity I posted a poll on whether the Veritech in Battloid mode should fly on the FB page. Already racking in some results.
Mike1975 wrote: I've only had HTH a few times. Things are usually dead before HTH has any use except for the Spartan.
After the "Itano Circus" is over, the shooting is typically the mop-up stage.
I had beefed up the buildings to 4X in our games so it did allow for some alleyway "muggings" which were best left unseen to the genteel public.
Would love to see the special character with the Spartan and two clubs have a go, too bad as a walker it is unlikely that would happen.
Forar wrote: That seems like a spurious statement. Surely there are ground or sea based miniatures games that don't worry about height/elevation.
RRT even says it ignores elevation on page 10 of the rule book.
Apologies for the pedantry, but stating it definitively like that is just begging to either fail immediately or be 'no true Scotsman'd'. (as in, "oh, X isn't a real mini's game")
Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional. But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions
Full Thrust? X-Wing? Silent Death? Anything focusing on space combat?
I wrote this a while back...advantages and when to do HTH
1. A Zen or Malcontent player has another players destroids outnumbered and he can reduce their firepower by getting into hand to hand because they cannot fire in hand to hand combat and help their buddies and it helps reduce their overwhelming firepower. IF you are in range to move into hand to hand with a pod or two you are most likely to be better off sitting still and using the Focus Fire of the pod and Accuracy of the main guns so now you can fire your primary and secondary weapon for free and can hit easier. So you get a 50% increase in firepower and an increase in accuracy.
2. You have something like a FPA that is behind enemy lines that will die really quickly unless she does something to prevent the other units from firing on her. Zooming up a squadron of FPA and going HtH with a Mac II would be interesting since the Mac can no longer fire and the FPA cannot be fired on. The only hope for the Mac is some nearby units coming to the rescue.
3. You have units that excel in Hand to Hand like a Spartan and want to duke it out. A Spartan can kill two pods in a turn in Hand to Hand. It gets 2 attacks and each does 2 more points of damage. He can pay two command points and power punch twice and kill 2 pods doing 6 damage with each clubbing attack.
Poll is flawed. Cheese should be broken up into flavors. I hate blue cheese but love most every other non-stinky kind!
Was that really an issue on facebook? Here it seems the biggest issue is that almost no one noticed that the battloid has flight due to the way the cards are laid out, not that it shouldn't.
I was just curious....I also made a post with pics on how to see and understand the cards....
Why sometimes Flight and the Veritech can be confusing.....
If you look at the pics the Tomahawk and all the other mecha list Mecha Traits that affect them right under the MDC listing as with the Tomahawk shown.
On a Veritech it lists the initial traits as shown in the second pic because they are not specific to any mode or as in the case of the Battloid Restriction are quite explicit in the actual description as to what they limit. Although you can argue many times Battloids are seen shooting missiles from their wings by Max.
The additional information is kinda confusing for some since it does not show flight under each individual mode as some people would expect.
The mecha cards are the exact same way as you can see in the third pic.
The problem is also augmented by Hover. People assume Hover has some elements of VTOL Flight in Guardian Mode or has something to do with actual movement. If only adds a negative to-hit modifier for really quick units like the VT in Guardian mode and contrary to what many assume, has nothing to do with the actual movement. In essence it was misnamed IMHO.
It's more potentially confusing because the aircraft ability for the jet mode GRANTS flight so someone who just looks at the modes sees the battloids walking (which is mainly what they do), the guardians hovering/skimming just above the surface (which is mainly what they do), and jets flying (which is all they do). The rules still make sense even without that flight mention on the other side of the card.
Mike1975 wrote: Yes but Guardian modes can fly....and Hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The problem is that Hover as a Trait does not match what people assume Hover is.....
Hover =/= flying. It is by definition moving at a very low altitude (usually a few feet on a cushion of air or magnetically in real life) which is what the trait grants you and simulates in the game . I'm not sure how you can say that "hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability" if you actually read the ability. Are you working on the advanced rules version or something? My retail release has the hover rule include that you treat rough terrain as open terrain FOR THE PURPOSES OF MOVEMENT.
Mike1975 wrote: It's not like your pods will stand up in old civil war ranks out in the open and fire on the Veritechs.
Of course not.
We've already established the superiority of the Battlepod kickline.
Massed shooting and massed kicking has been painful.
I need to read the rules "again" to see how hand to hand is limited i.e. if it is only with "fast movers" because if Veritechs fly in all cases and ground based units cannont HtH flyers...
Anyway, you see where I am going with this because each time I was in bioroid or guardian mode when this happened and I thought they did not fly.
If you don't like the fact that Veritechs in Battloid cannot fly....I tell you there are a lot more people that think they should.
Wait, I thought we just established that Battloids can fly?
I think Mike was not sure if Asterios had an issue with a bioroid veritech being able to fly.
Pretty sure the hard-core fan in him would not object... It feels to me like they should "leap" since I cannot envision them doing the "superman" flying around, always seemed to be limited to quick "hops" or drops, at least jet or guardian would be more efficient for extended flight.
problem is in feasibility and flight simulation, a batteloid cannot fly, plain and simple, it can thrust, but not fly in the true sense of the word, its thrusters will shoot it in the direction they are pointing, now people will say they have attitude thrusters to change directions like when in space, problem is, those only work in space, they are like a fire extinguisher and have "0" power on earth, so technically Battleoids do not have flight, even the show just shows them thrusting and then changing to other modes to fly around.
so why on gods green earth would someone give battloids controlled flight, it would be like giving a rocket the power to do controlled loop d'loops and such it doesn't happen.
Mike1975 wrote: Yes but Guardian modes can fly....and Hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The problem is that Hover as a Trait does not match what people assume Hover is.....
Hover =/= flying. It is by definition moving at the very low altitude of a few feet (usually on a cushion of air or magnetically in real life) which is what the trait grants you and simulates in the game . I'm not sure how you can say that "hover has nothing to do with movement if you read the ability" if you actually read the ability. Are you working on the advanced rules version or something? My retail release has the hover rule include that you treat rough terrain as open terrain FOR THE PURPOSES OF MOVEMENT.
Not be definition in RRT.....you just treat rough terrain as open.....but Guardian Modes also fly. The principal addition is the -1 penalty to be hit. So Hover is not =/= Flying. It is quite different. Hover is more akin to the Hover of a Hovertank. So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.
Mike1975 wrote: So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.
I'm not claiming otherwise. You're the one who said it has "nothing" to do with movement when fully half the rule is explicitly about movement. I don't mean to sound rude but you seem to be uncharacteristically blunt, stubborn, and wrong about this one particular aspect of the game. Is there something behind the scenes going on with that rule or something? Did you get into it with Carmen about flying/hovering conventional units or something? You've been rudely "correcting" folks about this for a few days but some good did come of it I guess since we didn't notice about the flight for all modes.
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Mike1975 wrote: So Hover is not =/= Flying. It is quite different. Hover is more akin to the Hover of a Hovertank. So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.
Which is my point so I'm not sure why you're arguing it back to me. Hover is NOT misnamed in this game as it does give you what "hover" should, skimming above the surface like a hovertank. The question I think you're trying to pose is whether or not guardians actually do that as opposed to flying (but without aircraft/afterburner).
Mike1975 wrote: So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.
I'm not claiming otherwise. You're the one who said it has "nothing" to do with movement when fully half the rule is explicitly about movement. I don't mean to sound rude but you seem to be uncharacteristically blunt, stubborn, and wrong about this one particular aspect of the game. Is there something behind the scenes going on with that rule or something? Did you get into it with Carmen about flying/hovering conventional units or something?
well mike did say to me he was not happy with what they called it, he said they should have called it jink od dodge or something other then hover, since what is the sense to have hover when it has flight ?
Mike1975 wrote: So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.
I'm not claiming otherwise. You're the one who said it has "nothing" to do with movement when fully half the rule is explicitly about movement. I don't mean to sound rude but you seem to be uncharacteristically blunt, stubborn, and wrong about this one particular aspect of the game. Is there something behind the scenes going on with that rule or something? Did you get into it with Carmen about flying/hovering conventional units or something?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike1975 wrote: So Hover is not =/= Flying. It is quite different. Hover is more akin to the Hover of a Hovertank. So yes it does have some effect on movement and no it cannot be analogous to flying.
Which is my point so I'm not sure why you're arguing it back to me. Hover is NOT misnamed in this game as it does give you what "hover" should, skimming above the surface like a hovertank. The question I think you're trying to pose is whether or not guardians actually do that as opposed to flying (but without aircraft/afterburner).
I agree, I reread it and was wrong that it has no effect on movement but to say, as you did, that Hover =/= Flying is just flat out incorrect. Guardians do not simply hover along like a Hovertank but can quite adequately fly. Hence the idea that people see Hover and assume flight is part of the reason why people make incorrect assumptions when looking at the Mecha Traits on a Veritech.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's easy to call obstinate something you don't agree with. Just as I could say you are being obstinate in thinking that a Guardian Mode veritech is correct only having Hover and not also including flight.
Note that Having Flight also negates the movement portion of the Hover trait and makes it so that it simply provides a -1 to strike for that unit.
It's easy to call obstinate something you don't agree with. Just as I could say you are being obstinate in thinking that a Guardian Mode veritech is correct only having Hover and not also including flight.
Note that Having Flight also negates the movement portion of the Hover trait and makes it so that it simply provides a -1 to strike for that unit.
Flight doesn't "negate" it, it simply repeats it. There is a difference in game design between the two (although not functionally in that particular case). Also, I don't think it is "correct" as that implies it is the best choice but rather a reasonable choice for guardians to have hover for the purposes of game balance and variety and hence the confusion. I'm actually agreeing with you so there is no reason to tilt this windmill. I'm glad they all have flight and I agree that flight (without aircraft/afterburner) better illustrates what a guardian is capable of. Is that clear finally?
Oh, if you think this flight thing is warped, wait until we get Armored Valks and someone pops the armor to put a Valk jet on the board with wing missiles...
Stormonu wrote: Oh, if you think this flight thing is warped, wait until we get Armored Valks and someone pops the armor to put a Valk jet on the board with wing missiles...
Can't use the LRM's though. You buy armored units and their upgrades but they come out of the armor and are basic Veritechs. You can't buy the missile upgrades for Arrmored VT's.
On the other hand you are correct and the rules do not technically state that you will not have the standard missile loadout, so you could argue, that once they come out they will have the medium-range missiles.
n815e wrote: Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional.
But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions.
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, boardgame pieces aren't 2 dimensional either. Even thin paper bits exist in all three dimensions.
But surely we've all realized by now that definitively stating things as absolutes is a futile endeavor. Regarding actual height/elevation, you mean to tell me you don't think there's a single miniatures game out there that ignores unit height/elevation? Because I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one.
Let's put it this way. What would a strictly two dimensional miniatures game be modeling? What situation exists or could exist outside of Flatland that functions on a flat plane? Even tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat. Perhaps corridor games such as Space Hulk may be two dimensional, I am not familiar enough with them to say.
The most basic naval wargame I've played has rules for running aground.
It is a pretty lazy or poorly considered aspect of what is otherwise a decent set of rules.
Also, not having my rulebooks on me, I can't remember if you can transform to battloid with missiles still attached and "get them back" returning to jet mode. I do remember, however in the episode "Viva Miriya" (attacking the robotech factory) a scene where Max and Miriya switch to battloid and still have their wing missiles (with wings splayed open on the back). Moments later, they switch back to jet and start firing those wing missiles. Just can't remember if the game allows you to do that or not.
n815e wrote: Three dimensional models are by their very nature three dimensional.
But feel free to actually prove me wrong, show me a miniatures game that doesn't consider three dimensions.
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, boardgame pieces aren't 2 dimensional either. Even thin paper bits exist in all three dimensions.
But surely we've all realized by now that definitively stating things as absolutes is a futile endeavor. Regarding actual height/elevation, you mean to tell me you don't think there's a single miniatures game out there that ignores unit height/elevation? Because I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one.
Let's put it this way. What would a strictly two dimensional miniatures game be modeling? What situation exists or could exist outside of Flatland that functions on a flat plane? Even tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat. Perhaps corridor games such as Space Hulk may be two dimensional, I am not familiar enough with them to say. The most basic naval wargame I've played has rules for running aground.
It is a pretty lazy or poorly considered aspect of what is otherwise a decent set of rules.
The obvious answer (to me) is the one that Merijeek gave; X-Wing, however I had assumed that would be argued to be a boardgame, not a minis game.
Space Hulk would be a good one, and down that path would also possibly be things like Shadows of Brimstone and Imperial assault, but those I'd definitely call more 'boardgames that happen to have minis' rather than a full blown 'minis game'.
Is 'running aground' really tracking 'elevation', or isn't it simply "do NOT go here, seriously"?
I'm sure many, if not most miniature wargames include some measure of elevation, especially depending on how they do Line of Sight. But *all* of them? 'Cause I'm sure we can dig up some crappy ones from the 80s or 90s that forgot to include it somewhere if we try. :-P
Surely there must be some other games that utilize miniatures on a board but don't worry about those miniatures being at above or below grade? (Note I say nothing about them being *good* games, simply that it would shock me if it didn't exist).
Stormonu wrote: Oh, if you think this flight thing is warped, wait until we get Armored Valks and someone pops the armor to put a Valk jet on the board with wing missiles...
I think the more important issue is what will happen to the existing metas and game balance once they introduce spiderpig. I mean his rules are completely OP since it literally states that spiderpig does whatever a spiderpig does. The possibilities are endless! And we're almost as close to getting spiderpig with our pledges as the Armored Valkyrie judging by all the wave 2 updates we've gotten in the past 5 1/2 months.
I believe Valkyries can fly in battloid mode. From the way the rules are written in the rulebook and the cards, we have the general rules that apply to all modes, followed by mode specific rules under each mode. Flight is not under the fighter mode so it follows that it applies to all modes. While it's not in the Robotech continuity, we do see VF-0s in battloid flying in Macross Zero. We also see Guardians flying alongside the SDF-1 in several episodes.
Just glad I brought it up and Mike was caring enough to take me up on my guardian comment.
Weird but it works.
Confirmed "Aircraft" rule is what prevents HtH engagement.
Stormonu wrote: Oh, if you think this flight thing is warped, wait until we get Armored Valks and someone pops the armor to put a Valk jet on the board with wing missiles...
I think the more important issue is what will happen to the existing metas and game balance once they introduce spiderpig. I mean his rules are completely OP since it literally states that spiderpig does whatever a spiderpig does. The possibilities are endless! And we're almost as close to getting spiderpig with our pledges as the Armored Valkyrie judging by all the wave 2 updates we've gotten in the past 5 1/2 months.
Why wait for Wave 2? I already have these guys, and as you can see, they're properly sized for the New Scale Generation!
(The monster is the old matchbox guy from around 87. The armored valk I've had since about '89, part of a battletech kit. The super is a gashapon I recently picked up to check the scale against my "green" RRT valks)
Talizvar wrote: Just glad I brought it up and Mike was caring enough to take me up on my guardian comment.
Weird but it works.
Confirmed "Aircraft" rule is what prevents HtH engagement.
Yup. That's pretty explicit.
Did they ever get around to FAQing that you need to be engaged to hit someone with a melee attack though? Cause the lack of that restriction meant it was still possible. There are several things "engaged" restricts (using close formation, shooting, being shot at or moving away). But actually hitting/being hit with a melee attack isn't directly a part of that rule. All hitting seems to require, is base contact.
And if they did, did they explain how that's going to work with the Glaug-Eldare, which IS an Aircraft, can't not be an Aircraft like Veritechs (yes, it can Jettison, but then it'd be a Glaug, which is a separate profile), but which also explicitly states it has several options for Hand-to-Hand Attacks.
While there's nothing contradictory in the above, if the rules or GEldare stats have not changed, it may lead to arguments about RAI vs RAW, and should be clarified.
n815e wrote: Let's put it this way. What would a strictly two dimensional miniatures game be modeling? What situation exists or could exist outside of Flatland that functions on a flat plane? Even tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat. Perhaps corridor games such as Space Hulk may be two dimensional, I am not familiar enough with them to say.
n815e wrote: Let's put it this way. What would a strictly two dimensional miniatures game be modeling? What situation exists or could exist outside of Flatland that functions on a flat plane? Even tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat. Perhaps corridor games such as Space Hulk may be two dimensional, I am not familiar enough with them to say.
Yeah, like OGRE! Oh, wait...
Ogre Miniatures is a 3-D thing. I own over a hundred armor units for Ogre Minis battles, in addiition to the requisite Ogres & infantry.
n815e wrote: Let's put it this way. What would a strictly two dimensional miniatures game be modeling? What situation exists or could exist outside of Flatland that functions on a flat plane? Even tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat. Perhaps corridor games such as Space Hulk may be two dimensional, I am not familiar enough with them to say.
Yeah, like OGRE! Oh, wait...
Ogre Miniatures is a 3-D thing. I own over a hundred armor units for Ogre Minis battles, in addiition to the requisite Ogres & infantry.
Ogre Miniatures is not OGRE, the tactical boardgame, which doesn't have elevation rules whatsoever.
Point still stands that Ogre the tactical wargame played on hexes has no elevation rules what so ever. I guess when the map scale is 1.5 km per hex, if you've got a difference of elevation important enough to note you can write your own mountain rules.
Stormonu wrote: Oh, if you think this flight thing is warped, wait until we get Armored Valks and someone pops the armor to put a Valk jet on the board with wing missiles...
I think the more important issue is what will happen to the existing metas and game balance once they introduce spiderpig. I mean his rules are completely OP since it literally states that spiderpig does whatever a spiderpig does. The possibilities are endless! And we're almost as close to getting spiderpig with our pledges as the Armored Valkyrie judging by all the wave 2 updates we've gotten in the past 5 1/2 months.
Why wait for Wave 2? I already have these guys, and as you can see, they're properly sized for the New Scale Generation!
(The monster is the old matchbox guy from around 87. The armored valk I've had since about '89, part of a battletech kit. The super is a gashapon I recently picked up to check the scale against my "green" RRT valks)
EDIT: Stupid Flickr - why do I bother?
You could just use 1/200 minis and use a range that is 50% longer. Pretty easy to do.
Talizvar wrote: Just glad I brought it up and Mike was caring enough to take me up on my guardian comment.
Weird but it works.
Confirmed "Aircraft" rule is what prevents HtH engagement.
Yup. That's pretty explicit.
Did they ever get around to FAQing that you need to be engaged to hit someone with a melee attack though? Cause the lack of that restriction meant it was still possible. There are several things "engaged" restricts (using close formation, shooting, being shot at or moving away). But actually hitting/being hit with a melee attack isn't directly a part of that rule. All hitting seems to require, is base contact.
And if they did, did they explain how that's going to work with the Glaug-Eldare, which IS an Aircraft, can't not be an Aircraft like Veritechs (yes, it can Jettison, but then it'd be a Glaug, which is a separate profile), but which also explicitly states it has several options for Hand-to-Hand Attacks.
While there's nothing contradictory in the above, if the rules or GEldare stats have not changed, it may lead to arguments about RAI vs RAW, and should be clarified.
If I remember correctly you can still hit an aircraft if it is close enough. You just can't cause it to be engaged so that it cannot move when it activates. In fact if you get the initiative the next turn, ideally, you could attack it twice in HTH. Although most of the time your better off shooting it.
Thanks for the link. It's good to see at least one attorney general looking out for crowdfunding customers. Any Robotech backers from the great state of Washington? The kickstarter they took to court had backers out an average of $22.54 according to that link and I suspect the average Robotech backer has much more value still outstanding two years later from wave 2 portion of their pledge.
n815e wrote: Let's put it this way. What would a strictly two dimensional miniatures game be modeling? What situation exists or could exist outside of Flatland that functions on a flat plane? Even tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat. Perhaps corridor games such as Space Hulk may be two dimensional, I am not familiar enough with them to say.
Yeah, like OGRE! Oh, wait...
Finding a tactical boardgame that has no third dimension doesn't change the fact that tactical boardgames model three dimensional combat.
Last I played Ogre (a long time ago), artillery was able to shoot over units and terrain. That's not a two-dimensional possibility.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The obvious answer (to me) is the one that Merijeek gave; X-Wing, however I had assumed that would be argued to be a boardgame, not a minis game.
Models in X-Wing block each others' line of sight?
Is 'running aground' really tracking 'elevation', or isn't it simply "do NOT go here, seriously"?
Running aground means that depth is a consideration. Depth and height are both expressions of vertical distance.
Models in X-Wing block each others' line of sight?
I haven't played this year yet but iirc they don't. They don't even give a cover modifier. The only disallowed shots are against enemy models you are in base to base with and that only affects the models touching. Asteroids iirc give one extra defence die if intervening.
n815e wrote: Last I played Ogre (a long time ago), artillery was able to shoot over units and terrain. That's not a two-dimensional possibility
Everything can, you know. Line of sight is not something that exists in the regular OGRE game. There only exist "in range" and "out of range". Even when adding the GEV rules to the mix, neither terrain nor other units affect wether a unit can or can't shoot another one.
funny thing is you notice how the cards were being delivered according to posters on the forums for the game on KickStarter, but the judgement remains in place.
Models in X-Wing block each others' line of sight?
I haven't played this year yet but iirc they don't. They don't even give a cover modifier. The only disallowed shots are against enemy models you are in base to base with and that only affects the models touching. Asteroids iirc give one extra defence die if intervening.
Thanks, warboss, I haven't played it yet so didn't know.
That means that the models are assumed to be on different planes relative to each other even though it is played on a flat surface.
funny thing is you notice how the cards were being delivered according to posters on the forums for the game on KickStarter, but the judgement remains in place.
Yes, but those guys didn't bother to actually show up to court or send a representative. If they had and proved that they were sending stuff out, they may have avoided the judgement.
Models in X-Wing block each others' line of sight?
I haven't played this year yet but iirc they don't. They don't even give a cover modifier. The only disallowed shots are against enemy models you are in base to base with and that only affects the models touching. Asteroids iirc give one extra defence die if intervening.
Thanks, warboss, I haven't played it yet so didn't know.
That means that the models are assumed to be on different planes relative to each other even though it is played on a flat surface.
funny thing is you notice how the cards were being delivered according to posters on the forums for the game on KickStarter, but the judgement remains in place.
Yes, but those guys didn't bother to actually show up to court or send a representative. If they had and proved that they were sending stuff out, they may have avoided the judgement.
maybe, maybe not, but the fact a judge allowed the CPA violation does show yes even we kickstarter backers are protected under the laws of the CPA.
As much as some creators might dislike 'omg we're still alive yay!', I'm beginning to think that some kind of mandatory "one update a month" standard might not be a bad thing.
With full recognition that finding a way to enforce that or penalize those who fail to follow through might have to involve more than just a few house rules for the site, especially with more such sites becoming common as the years go by.
Whatever the project, if multiple calendar months can go by without *anything* of note happening, surely something is wrong.
So, yeah, I can't see this relating directly back to campaigns like PB's, but with litigation proceeding against creators at all, I'd think that some people might be getting at least a little antsy.
Nobody wants to be blindsided into being the next precedent setting case.
But I'm not expecting rapid change either. The law is notoriously slow to evolve to technology and new or novel ways of using it.
n815e wrote: The thing to note is that their lack of communication is what really did them in.
you talking about the card game or PB? it goes for both me thinks, yeah PB posted a lot of updates recently, but updates relating to this kickstarter sadly only 1.
show from the beginning, and if 
He forgot to read the next paragraph about why he is looking for those failures and how to fix them. 
It's not that I don't like the designs (I do) but I'll echo the previous sentiments... they feel half done and just not very robotech. They're first draft pencil sketches (maybe that's his style?... he did the robot heavy art in the Northern Gun books but I didn't buy either one or even see it ever personally) and they don't feel finished. They feel rushed like they were done last minute which given the pace of palladium production (wait 5 years... then cram everything in last minute). Also, the designs don't feel very robotech. There are some overused too common robotech design features like the alpha shoulders and less commonly the veritech forearms but they overall feel more like gundam or armored core.
that or avoiding people from asking him where is wave 2.
