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Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 05:36:09


Post by: Manchu


[MOD EDIT- Alpharius]

A nicely written, concise version of a State of the Robotech Union, as of 06-10-2016:

 Forar wrote:
 Eilif wrote:
Hey Folks,
I was curious about this game since a buddy of mine picked up some of the figs. Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but can someone satisfy my morbid curiosity and let me know where the game and the kickstarter currently stands.


Hrm, how to sum this up...

- Campaign finished May 2013. They were allegedly '98% done'
- Delivery target was Dec 2013, but PB expressed such confidence that they might even deliver in Oct or Nov.
- Jan 2014 they admit it'll have to be done in two waves.
- Spring/Summer 2014 wave one goes from design to production.
- Wave one begins shipping to NA backers/retail Oct/Nov 2014.
- The Rest of the World waits for months, they finally (allegedly) finish delivery of wave 1 in Q1 or Q2'ish (exact isn't really pertinent; they took way too long).
- Feb 2015 we see 5 sprue breakdowns for wave 2 figures.
- March 2015 at the "Palladium Open House" they announce that they're aiming to deliver wave 2 in late 2015. Obviously this gets missed as well. That eventually shifts to "Q1 or Q2 2016" (there are a bunch of variations here, it's not an exhaustive list), until at Anime North recently someone working with PB states that 2016 is not happening.
- June 2015: they post two GIANT 'updates' that don't actually update us on anything, bring the specter of a scale change for future figure lines up as a distraction, and blame/throw under the bus everyone they can while declaring themselves the saviour of anime in north america.
- We don't see any progress on wave 2 until Feb/March'ish 2016, literally a year since (four 3D printed prototypes and a resin/metal prototype of a non-game piece that was available as an add on during the campaign).
- Allegedly PB have been 'in talks' to 'trim the parts count' for like 1.5-2 years, and frankly I have zero faith in them delivering in 2017, so this '7 month project' has ballooned out to over 3.5 years with no end in sight.

It is, in a word, a clusterfeth. That isn't even touching on the lacking communications, lies (active and in retrospect), and dozens of other aspects that make this the worst experience I've had on Kickstarter, especially with the amount of money they took in and what my friends and I contributed.

Again, this is a *very* brief overview. The particulars are long enough I could write a book about them, from the 'vote' to sell at Gencon to the Customs debacle to "Spartangate" and beyond. It's basically the pinnacle of "making it big with a KS campaign and then pissing away almost all good will and nostalgia they had going for them".


[/MOD EDIT]

Kevin Siembieda of Palladium Books wants to re-start the conversation of RRT ...
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Update – June 6, 2015

By Kevin Siembieda

As you know, we have been wanting and needing to post this massive Update for weeks. I realized it was something that needed to be done back in April. But as always, there is so much to do all the time.

Attending AdeptiCon, hosting a Robotech® RPG Tactics™ tournament at the Palladium Open House and talking with more and more of our Kickstarter backers, and wargamers in general, especially over the last 6-8 months, has helped to crystallize a number of plans we’ve been kicking around for awhile.

One is to restart the conversation about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ with our Kickstarter backers. And that’s exactly what this post is all about. I apologize for the length of this Update, but there is a lot to talk about, both past and present. And I hope I answered many of the questions that have been circulating for a while.

It is rare that I ever wish I could hit a reset button and do something all over again. Differently. Better. The Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter and the related RRT launch is one such time I wish we could get a do-over.

There is no “reset button” or “do-over” that can undo everything and let us start again, back to 2013, with the knowledge we have today. But we can start again, with you, if you’ll let us.

I’ll go into the specifics of the news and developments with Robotech® RPG Tactics™, upcoming products, and the future for this game line in a moment, but the bottom line is: We simply were not prepared for the full scope and magnitude of such a large and successful Kickstarter, nor manufacturing in China. The learning curve has been considerable and has contributed to some of the delays, while other delays have been to do the game right. Palladium is getting up to speed and, of course, intends to fulfill this Kickstarter, as well as do so much more.

We were lost the woods for a while when we started this venture. We were full of ideas and good intentions, but with scarcely a clue about the magnitude of the undertaking awaiting us. We were smart enough from the beginning to know that we’d need some expert help. Someone with experience with Kickstarters, sculpting, and making this type of game, which is why we joined forces with Ninja Division (the creative people behind Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios).
I have broken the rest of this into parts for readability:
Who is Palladium Books®?
Spoiler:
We’ve only recently come to realize that many of you from the wargaming community don’t really know much, if anything, about Palladium Books. That became evident with some of the wild speculation about us and the future of the RRT product line. Again, this is something we probably should have realized, but we did not.

Palladium Books has been a force in the role-playing market for more than three decades, but we didn’t think about the fact that many of our Kickstarter backers may never have heard of us. After all, the role-playing game and tabletop wargame game markets do not have a lot of crossover. That has changed and continues to change in recent years, but the fact is, for many of you, Palladium Books is a blank slate. An unknown quantity.

Please allow me introduce ourselves. Palladium Books is an established company. Not some fly-by-night startup. We have been creating and publishing role-playing games since 1981. That’s 34 years, folks, and we have no intention of going away.

Our two biggest licensed RPGs have been Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Robotech®. Our biggest and best selling RPG is Rifts®, and it has even been optioned for development into a live action motion picture. We don’t know if that will ever happen as the IP has been sitting in development hell for 13 years, but we remain hopeful.

I’m going to focus on Palladium’s history with Robotech® because that’s what’s important to most of you. Palladium released The Robotech® RPG waaaay back in 1986. We worked to get this license because we were ALL big fans of the Robotech® animated TV series. The guys writing the novels used our books for reference. Many of us at Palladium collected the Bandai toys and model kits, Robotech® books and, well . . . everything we could find for Robotech®. We acquired the license because we loved the property.

The Robotech® RPG (1986) was an instant smash hit. Sourcebooks followed. We’d also release Robotech® II: The Sentinels® RPG (1987) and the Macross® II RPG (1992). In 1989, I knew fans wanted Robotech® on VHS videocassettes. When LIVE Entertainment dropped the ball by editing the episodes of Macross they had released, and earned the ire of fans everywhere, they contacted Palladium Books and generously offered us the rights to release Robotech® on VHS tapes, uncut. I jumped at the opportunity even though nobody else saw the market potential. As a dyed-in-the-wool Robotech® fan, I knew other fans were dying for Robotech® to be done right on VHS. My distributors and advisers were not so sure. This was back in the day when “Japanamation” was a new concept and anime in the English language was a rare thing. I took the plunge anyway. Of our 72 distributors back in the day, only ONE placed an order. And it was for something like 26 copies. Things looked bleak.

I came up with a new strategy and went to a direct mail campaign with ads in Dragon Magazine and other print mediums. (The Internet was just in its infancy in 1989.) The demand was immediate and tremendous. Within 6 weeks, Palladium had distributors begging for Robotech® on VHS videocassettes. The release of the beloved Robotech® animated series on VHS was a huge success for Palladium.

Palladium Books® was the first company to offer the entire Robotech® series on videotape in North America, including the three episodes of Robotech® II: The Sentinels®. We topped the “anime” best seller charts with every release. At one point we had eight of the top 10 slots. Back then, people considered us a pioneer in bringing “anime” to North America. For a very short while, I guess we were pivotal to those early days. The thing is, we did it because we loved the Robotech® TV show and knew our fellow fans wanted it.

We would have continued to sell the tapes except that the mastermind behind Robotech®, Carl Macek and his company, Streamline Entertainment, outbid us. Carl also had plans to get Robotech® back into television syndication which trumped anything Palladium could offer. Sadly, his attempts to re-syndicate the show were very limited and short-lived.

For many years, Palladium Books was at the forefront of helping to keep Robotech® available to fans. We let the Robotech® license go after 15 years (2001), because we felt we had done what we could with it, at the time, and because we could not support the plans to abandon the original Robotech® anime in favor of exclusively focusing on the ill-fated Robotech® 3000, which was the intention of the powers that be at Harmony Gold at that time. Robotech® 3000 was supposed to be a new Robotech® animated series, but it never happened. Some years later we found ourselves missing Robotech®. When the opportunity arose for us to reacquire the Robotech® license (2007) under a new regime at Harmony Gold USA, Inc. – guys who were fans themselves and who loved the entire series – we again jumped at the chance.

For us, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ isn’t just about the potential money we might make, this is a dream job. It’s the culmination of everything we could ever want. This is a passion. We want this game to be freakin’ awesome. We want to wow and woo you. We want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to be a great experience.

We are the very same guys who did the Robotech® role-playing games and brought you the Robotech® series on VHS videocassettes when no one else even realized there was a market for such products. We love Robotech®. We want to make great Robotech® products to share with all our fellow Robotech® fanatics around the world! The Macross Saga portion of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) is just the beginning. Just as we did with the original games and videotapes, we intend to bring you every aspect and era of Robotech® for the RRT game line! If you saw it in the TV show, we want to provide it as a game piece for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. After all, every new mecha, vehicle and combat unit adds to your gaming experience and broadens the scope of combat!

And we are just getting started.

We haven’t talked about our passion or plans for the future, because we haven’t even satisfied our current commitments with RRT Wave 2, though we are getting there.

We didn’t share with you who Palladium is or our history with Robotech®, because it just didn’t dawn on us to do so. We just sorta figured everyone knew who we were. I know, stupid, but we didn’t think of it. And once the Kickstarter had ended with such a resounding success, we found ourselves on a runaway train and hanging on for dear life. And not just on a train ride. Think of the old Westerns or that moment in Indiana Jones where he’s fighting on that speeding truck and trying not to fall to his doom. That was us and RRT after the Kickstarter. Read on for the gory details.
The Advent of Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Spoiler:
It is our love of Robotech® and the desire to bring it to fans in new and exciting ways that prompted us to create Robotech® RPG Tactics™.

The ideas started to percolate in the beginning of 2012, after I found out Harmony Gold was open to letting Palladium do game pieces for our existing RPG game license.

In 2012, my original plan was to only make game pieces to sell as an add-on to the existing role-playing game market. Research is 90% of everything in business, so we started to quietly talk with fans to find out whether they had any interest in Robotech® game pieces. They did. That led us to recognize the growing excitement for tabletop games and wargames, and we started to consider releasing the game pieces as part of a bigger, new Robotech® game. I also had Thomas Roache, Carmen Bellaire and others pitching us on the idea of creating an entirely new game that placed an emphasis on the use of the game pieces as well as offering them to the existing RPG player base and collectors. The more I researched and talked with fans, distributors and industry people, the more excited I became about all of it.

I felt we needed to keep the game pieces simple and easy to put together. No more than 8-10 parts, especially if we were to make the new Robotech® game and pieces appealing to a wide audience. I even rejected one potential partner, early on, because he insisted that to make the mecha highly detailed – the way fans insisted they wanted – the pieces would have to have 16-20 parts. That to me was not acceptable. Turns out he was right, especially via the manufacturing method we ended up using. I wish I had stuck to my guns on that small piece count and simplicity, but I’m getting ahead of myself.

First, I want to thank Thomas Roache for his persistence and passion that opened my eyes to the possibilities. Honestly, I don’t know if Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would exist if it were not for Tom and his efforts to rally an online movement for Palladium to even consider something like this. It was also Tom who first suggested Palladium talk to Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division about working with us to make the game pieces and it was Ninja Division, Tom and Carmen Bellaire who helped convince us that doing a new game would be the way to go with this project. Tom’s insights and suggestions continue to this very day. Since then we’ve added other fan consultants, guys like Bad_Syntax, Mike Arnold, David Chase Murphy, and many, many others who have offered constructive suggestions and help. That number would grow to immense proportions after the Kickstarter as we would have an army of fans to bounce ideas off on and get suggestions from. I always make a point to speak with dozens of backers and fans at every convention. Everyone we have spoken with has been a huge help. And that dialogue will continue, hopefully on an even larger scale as we move forward to expand the Robotech® universe.

We thought we had all our bases covered. And we did. But only to a point. The thing is, when you are new to something – something massive – and go into it blind, you don’t even necessarily know the right questions to ask or what you should be doing. You have just leaped off the proverbial cliff and have no idea how far the drop is or what you are going to land in. We thought we did. But we didn’t.

What we all knew for sure is that we had a lot to familiarize ourselves with and master, but we had no idea how huge of an amount that was, nor the vast scope of related things we’d also need to learn. It was immense and overwhelming at times. Ninja Division was there to help and we could NOT have done this without them. But they had their own projects to launch and manage, and other commitments to deal with. We understand that, but it meant there were times where we could have used more input. Other times we were scrambling to take care of whatever the new challenges were, and sometimes while learning exactly how do that.

As it turned out, none of us at Palladium Books nor Ninja Division were truly prepared for EVERYTHING to come.

Here’s just one simple example. The first container of RRT games is about to ship from China in July of 2014. As in, it will be ready to ship in 10 days. We are happy as can be. We assumed Ninja Division would handle the importing as Palladium has NO experience in this whatsoever and had informed them of this. Or if not ND, the Manufacturing Broker that Ninja Division brought in on this project. So we were left dazed and scrambling, again, when the Ninjas told us, “Sorry, you need to deal with this directly and on your own. We can’t help you, because we don’t know this stuff either and you need to take care of all the paperwork, we can’t do it for you.” They couldn’t recommend a broker, either; presumably because this end of the business was new to them too. When we asked ND if the Manufacturing Broker could handle it for us, they said, no. We later learned that the company could have done it, but apparently ND didn’t know that at the time.

Palladium had absolutely no knowledge about overseas shipping, export or import. Nothing about the paperwork. Nothing about the cost. Nothing about . . . well, any aspect of overseas shipping. (The Ninjas had given us an estimated cost for shipping, but the real costs would be more than double that estimate.) Suddenly, we have 10 days to find a shipping broker and figure all of this out. The first few days go toward reaching out to people we know and seeing if they could refer an import broker. We pick the one that appears on the list of two companies we know and trust, and give them a call. They turn out to be quite understanding, patient and helpful. They explain the process, help us figure out the “codes” and “classifications” of the “goods” being imported, help us fill out the paperwork, and the whole nine yards.

Of course, nothing is easy. Here are the highlights of things we learned about shipping when we had to deal with the importing of RRT: Palletize the shipment at the factory in China or in the States? Become aware that only certain types of pallets can be used and they need a certificate showing they have been treated against various types of insects to pass US Customs. Having that document is a must. Being lost in the woods, we don’t realize that the shipment must be made ready on a particular day, and that the factory or our broker must arrange for the shipment to be trucked from the factory to the docks (an additional cost), and do so by a certain time on that particular day so it can be loaded onto the scheduled ship. And that shipment must be scheduled for that specific vessel 2-3 weeks in advance. If there is a delay at the factory and you miss the scheduled ship, add a week or two (sometimes longer) till the next container ship is available. And then there may be port charges for cargo that sits at port for more than a few days. Assuming your shipment gets to the port on time, you are okay, except the vessel may be behind schedule one to several days, or is delayed at port after being loaded for one to several days. Once out to sea, it’s 3-4 weeks before it arrives.

When the ship arrives at a US port it does NOT automatically pull up to a dock and start to unload. It has to wait for a dock to open up and get clearance to proceed to dock. That’s normally 1-3 days. Then you have to wait a few days for it to clear US Customs without being tagged for inspection. Our first shipment got tagged, which is why we could not start shipping to backers as early as we had planned, nor have any product at the 2014 Gen Con Indy. If tagged for Customs inspection – which being a first time importer from China, we were – you are looking at another “5-7 business days” before it is cleared. (Our container was cleared, no problems, after six or seven days, plus the weekend when it just sat.) After passing US Customs, the shipment waits another few days before it can be picked up by truck and delivered to Palladium in Westland, Michigan. Or a few days to deliver it by truck to the train depot for delivery by train to the Detroit terminal, and then picked up by a truck and delivered to the Palladium warehouse. Delivery by train is a couple thousand dollars less expensive (multiply that by 10 containers and it’s a considerable savings), but it adds an extra 4-6 days vs truck. In an effort to expedite shipping to our Kickstarter backers, we had the first few shipments trucked to us. Once a truck is scheduled, you are stuck with it, even if there are delays at port. And, btw, you might be charged for cargo sitting in port even if the delay is not your fault. The “work slowdown” and subsequent strike at ports across the USA would make matters even more complicated, causing horrendous delays throughout the shipping of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. It was a nightmare, and from what we heard, we missed the worst delays that came later. Wow. And then one container got put on the train, made it to Detroit, and then got put back on the train and sent all over the place, starting with Chicago and ending up in Mexico – yes, Mexico – before it finally arrived at Palladium! Wild and completely out of our control.

Out of the blue, we had to become fluent with all of this, and more, the hard way. And that’s just to receive the product from China. Shipping from the Palladium warehouse across North America and around the world was a whole other animal. And a whole other batch of things to put into place, master and manage. At this point, Wayne and Julius know a lot more about logistics and shipping than they ever imagined. But again, I digress.

And that’s on top of all the things we had to handle with regard to the actual RRT game design, writing, packaging, 3D sculpting, mold making, engineering, manufacturing, advertising and managing the Kickstarter. Whew. Ninja Division was there to show us the ropes and handle the key components, but there were mountains of material for Palladium to review, corrections and changes to be made, things to catch and other work to be done before final approvals. That’s why I used importing of goods as an example, above, because it sounds simple, and compared to some of the other demands and challenges, it was.
The birth of Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Spoiler:
When we embarked on this journey (early 2012 and long before we announced any plans), we knew we wanted to take Robotech® in a dynamic, new direction with game pieces for role-players, wargamers and collectors alike. The more we discussed the possibilities with Palladium game designer Carmen Bellaire, Thomas Roache and others, the more we gravitated toward doing a completely new, kick-ass game. Something epic in scope that included beautifully detailed game pieces that would delight Robotech® fans. We quietly began researching and exploring all possibilities. We listened to fans and began conceptualizing what needed to be done.

As Robotech® fans ourselves, and after several months of research, we had a very good idea of what fans wanted and what we wanted to do. Of course, we listened to the fans. They wanted 1/285 scale, highly detailed game pieces. Sounded good to us. Harmony Gold concurred. The trick was the actual execution.

That’s where Ninja Division came in. We spoke with a number of people as we moved forward to make Robotech® game pieces, but after speaking with John Cadice of Soda Pop Miniatures (and soon after, Kai, David and other members of the team that would become Ninja Division), we felt we had found the right group of people to make this game happen. They were supremely confident, smart, and self-professed Robotech® fans eager to embrace a project like this. The quality of the products they had produced themselves and in concert with other game publishers was excellent. Super Dungeon Explore was a hot new release at the time, Helldorado was another, and Relic Knights was being developed and looked fabulous. Both Carmen Bellaire and Tom Roache were ecstatic over the choice to work with these guys to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Everyone we spoke to, including distributors and industry people, agreed that Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios were the right choice to team up with. These guys certainly had the anime style down. Everyone seemed to have positive feedback about these “impressive new guys.” We liked them and liked what they had to say. They explained they had the knowledge, the experience and were ready to start work immediately. We just had to trust them. We did, so we took the plunge.

It was on!

Ninja Division got to work. Palladium Books ponied up $40,000 to get the ball rolling. It was a risk, because if the Kickstarter flopped, we’d be screwed. ND got the 3D sculptors sculpting, the game design and writing into development, key art and packaging into production, and other pre-production elements rockin’ and rollin’. Lacking experience with 3D sculpting and manufacturing in China, Palladium felt it wise to leave most of the technical decisions up to Ninja Division, with Palladium approving sculpts, artwork, packaging, etc., before it would be sent to Harmony Gold for final approval. The game rules we developed together, as we had very strong ideas about what the game needed to be, and what Robotech® fans wanted.
The Kickstarter
Spoiler:
The guys at Ninja Division had the technical knowhow, the connections and the people to help Palladium make this product, now all we needed was the money to do it. And that was a problem.

When we started to get serious about Robotech® RPG Tactics™, talks naturally segued into how do we afford all this? Ninja Division estimated the cost to be between $550,000 and $900,000 to make the game and expansion packs we all wanted to see made. And not just enough to provide to the Kickstarter backers, but enough to get the game into the retail market. That was an impossible amount of money for Palladium. “Not if you launch it via Kickstarter.” That was what everybody was telling us, the Ninjas included. All of them were right.

It was my friend Jolly Blackburn, creator of Knights of the Dinner Table, who first told me about Kickstarter and that I should look into it. A couple weeks later, out of the blue, Carmen Bellaire began ranting about the value of Kickstarter and that it was something Palladium needed to look into. This was before Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was even an idea.

Carmen was the first to restart the Kickstarter conversation, saying we should fund the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ project via Kickstarter. That it would be easy. Tom Roache concurred. We were hesitant. It sounded great, but we knew it had to be a lot more demanding and difficult than it sounded. And it had to be done right to be successful.

Doing a Kickstarter and needing that amount of money was scary. Exciting, but scary. And Palladium had NO experience in doing one or knowing how to handle it.

Enter Ninja Division. At the time, Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios had done something like eight Kickstarters between them, and had the experience we lacked in all areas. The Ninjas said they could handle the Kickstarter 100%, from start to finish. From the graphics, writing and the video presentation, to the stretch goals and Q&A. This was a huge relief, as we knew nothing about doing a Kickstarter. We let the Ninjas run with it, sat back and watched in awe. Of course, we made some suggestions and did some editing, but this was Ninja Division’s show. We trusted their expertise and what needed to be done. And look as the result, wow. The Kickstarter was a tremendous success and there was much rejoicing.

But nothing is easy. I had big concerns about costs all around. I badly wanted to include additional shipping fees in the Kickstarter. Something that almost everyone does today, but back then, we were strongly advised not to. We were told that nobody (back then) charged shipping and that if we charged a shipping fee in addition to the backer pledge levels, it would severely reduce the chances of a successful Kickstarter. This was the subject of many discussions. I finally acquiesced, but it would be something that would haunt us later, as shipping worldwide would be in the neighborhood of $150,000 all by itself. Just for Wave One! Yeah, shipping is brutal, especially with the advent of “dimensional weight” – the larger the package, regardless of weight, the more it costs. The Ninjas said they factored shipping into the pledge levels, but final costs would be greater than their estimates across the board.

Remember that runaway train I spoke of early? When the Kickstarter ended, that train took off with us on it, and it immediately started to rocket out of control.

First, not knowing anything about Kickstarters, we did not realize the real job of managing a Kickstarter begins AFTER the Kickstarter is funded. We thought that when Ninja Division said it would handle the Kickstarter from start to finish, that they would be handling everything. Again, we didn’t know what “everything” entailed.

As it turned out, they meant “finish” as a successful funding. Again, not knowing exactly what’s involved and with miscommunication by both parties, Palladium did not realize it would be our responsibility to handle the thousands of emails and questions that would follow the successful funding of the Kickstarter. Remember, we were still figuring out and learning everything about Kickstarters, including establishing the BackerKit storefront to manage the pledges of our 5,000+ backers, among many other things. Consequently, something like six weeks went by without Palladium answering a single question or email on the Kickstarter page. It was only when one of the Ninjas reached out to Palladium, asking why were we ignoring the backers on the Kickstarter page, and the discussion that followed, that we at Palladium realized it was our job to manage the page. We jumped right on it, but by then, backers were frustrated and we had a thousand plus emails to answer, plus regular posts and updates to make. Like I said, it was crazy as that express train was rocketing down the tracks with more unexpected challenges and surprises to come.
Second, we discovered we were not “98% done” and ready for manufacturing. This was a huge surprise, the details and depths of which we did not come to fully understand till some months after we had missed our 2013 Fall Release. I’ve caught a lot of flack for saying we were 98% done, but that’s what we thought. All of us.
Spoiler:
Our past experience was the old school method of making game pieces in which once you have your sculpts – in this case, the 3D renders – you make your mold and you start spitting out and packaging pieces. 98% of the 3D sculpts were done. The rules, done. The artwork, done. Final book layout easy, breezy and something that should be done in a matter of days; a no-brainer. Game card designs, mostly finished. When we launched and finished the Kickstarter, we truly thought we were 98% DONE. Here’s something you’ll laugh at, when we first estimated a November 2013 release, we actually thought we were being cautious. There was no doubt in our minds at Palladium that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would ship that Fall. December at the latest. We spent money on ads saying as much.

Boy, were we wrong.

It turns out the type of manufacturing we’re doing is fairly new to the hobby game industry. There are serious conversion and incompatibility issues in converting the 3D models done by the sculptors to what needs to be done in China to make the molds and go into manufacturing. This is not just something Palladium and Ninja Division ran into, it’s true for EVERYONE using this type of manufacturing process. Only we didn’t know that at the time. Neither did Ninja Division, who were only starting to get the picture after the Kickstarter ended and they sent the first digital files over. (Or if they did, they didn’t realize the conversion process would be as arduous.) It would take Palladium months to grasp exactly what the situation was. Mainly because at that time, we weren’t directly involved in the conversations with the factory and the Manufacturing Broker. As the seemingly inexplicable delays went on, it seemed insane to us. How could someone not have made a conversion program for these incompatible files (3D sculpts versus what the manufacturer/factory needs)? However, we have since had this confirmed by the folks at Dust and several other game companies that this is, indeed, the case, and there is no way around it at the present time. Crazy, right?

As I understand it, the engineers in China have to completely rebuild, and recreate EACH 3D file, using the 3D sculpts as a base from which to start, and even that is mainly just reference for the pose. They have to, in effect, completely redesign a completely new digital model to manufacturing specifications. To complicate matters further, the engineers in China have to adjust the 3D sculpts further to take into consideration the manufacturing process and the types of metal molds that are required. That makes certain undercuts and details impossible, and requires different approaches and more numerous pieces to make the detailed game pieces all of us Robotech® fans wanted.

This created a tremendous amount of additional work and delays complicated by the language barrier and the way things are done in China. The increase in the number of pieces, and more tiny parts than any of us expected, has become something of an issue as well. Making some mecha more of a pain in the neck to build than others. That said, the mecha in Robotech® RPG Tactics™ look gorgeous when built and even more gorgeous when beautifully painted. We have seen hundreds of amazing finished pieces. And even the perceived level of difficulty and time to build them are a matter of debate depending on the level of experience and temperament of the model builder/gamer. A lot of people seem to think the Destroids are a bitch. Then I talk to someone with an army of painted Veritechs and Destroids who tell me it wasn’t that bad. Such is the nature of this hobby. I know a couple of people, for example, who could cobble Destroids together in 20-30 minutes and they look great. But both of the guys that I personally know, are either experienced model builders or experienced wargamers.

I’m personally disappointed by the large number of parts, because it makes the point of entry difficult for gamers new to this hobby. It’s even worse for collectors who just want a cool mecha to slap together in five minutes and put on their shelf. I understand that, because I’m one of those guys. Though I’m an artist, I’m not great at building or painting what amounts to tiny model kits. I’m that collector or gamer who is disappointed by the complexity and work required to build these pieces. I would need someone to build (and paint) them for me and that becomes expensive very quickly. Though, man, do they look great painted. Palladium and Ninja Division went this route because we were trying to please you and provide you with the product we thought you wanted.

To make a long story short, we thought we were on top of things. We thought Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would be ready to ship by the Fall of 2013, only six months after the Kickstarter. The problem was, we didn’t know as much as we thought. And that included Ninja Division when it came to all the ins-and-outs of manufacturing in China, 3D file conversions and the amount of time required for all of it. The commitments to the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter are truly massive, with a tremendous number of moving parts, as Ninja Division puts it, and it all takes time to coordinate to make it right. We hate that it is all taking so long, but we have never stopped working on trying to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ something great.

There are many other things I could discuss, but they would take up another 20 pages and are all water under the bridge. We’re all about moving forward, unleashing RRT Wave Two and doing much more with Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to broaden the scope of the game and options for fun.

Palladium Books is committed to the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game line, not just as a Kickstarter project, but as a long term, continuing game line that will become epic as we proceed. The massive undertaking and our lack of experience have delayed some parts of our planned releases, but Palladium remains committed to this great property and the RRT game line. It’s just going to take longer to fully launch. We’ll need your support and time to nurture and grow it. Once Wave Two is released, we can continue to expand the Macross setting as well as doing the other Robotech® generations of settings and factions, and we believe the momentum will surge and we should be able to keep building upon all aspects of the game. A great game.
Wow, we hit the character limit for Kickstarter Update posts, so this will have to be split into two. Please continue on to the next Update.
Doing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ right
Spoiler:
From the very beginning we have tried to do Robotech® right and make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ great. Remember, we are those same fan boys who have been publishing Robotech® products for decades. We have had industry experts like Ninja Division onboard from the start, and we’ve listened to Robotech® fans and our Kickstarter backers while working hard to make everyone happy. We’ve come to understand more about you and what you need and want for this product. We continue to listen to you and we are making the changes and moving forward in the manner we think you will want to see.

You can’t make everyone happy. Everyone has an opinion, and opinions vary. Sometimes a lot. Which voices and opinions do you listen to? Who do you let make the final judgement on decisions? Everyone can’t be right when there are several differing points of view.

Don’t worry, we’re on that too. We’ve learned valuable lessons from the past and we continue to learn about this game market and the specific wants of our backers and gamers. Carmen Bellaire and I will be taking a much more direct hand in future products. We have also developed a network of industry people and trusted fan advisors from our Kickstarter backers.

Let’s face it, we all got what (we thought) we wanted: “highly detailed, 1/285th scale (6mm) game pieces.” That’s what everyone wanted and was shouting from the rafters. Us included!
Well, that’s what we have, and it is not exactly what we all wanted, after all. What none of us realized is that to preserve all that detail and posability there would be a lot of parts and pieces to put together. Ninja Division felt that would be okay. Honestly, I’m not sure what the alternative would be, but we are looking into them for ALL FUTURE game pieces and expansion packs after RRT Wave Two. Heck, we’ve been looking at ways to try to reduce the number of pieces in RRT Wave Two, but that’s taking much longer than we hoped and is yielding minimal results.

We are working on it. The smaller size of future mecha in the later eras of Robotech® will have some impact on that issue. Plus, we now realize – as do many of you – that sacrificing some detail to have fewer pieces and easy ways to build the mecha is the way to go in the future.
Our greatest asset is you, we know that

In the end, you, our Kickstarter backers and Robotech® fans, have been our greatest resource and biggest help in figuring all this out. You, more than anyone, have helped guide us through the last two years. You’ve helped us come to a clearer understanding of what you need and want. Some of you even came to the Palladium warehouse to help us pack and ship to other backers. And boy, do we appreciate everything. It has been you who have helped point us in different directions, shared your knowledge and experiences, suggested painters and manufacturers, and offered up many excellent ideas and suggestions, many of which we intend to run with. We are constantly amazed at your willingness to share your thoughts and help. We have met hundreds of you at conventions, events, and at our office. Many others, even some close and frequent contacts, are faceless voices from the Internet, but just as important as anyone we have met in person. All of you guys have been awesome. Please, keep the suggestions coming! We want your input as we complete RRT Wave Two and move on to other eras and settings for Robotech®. We are listening, we always have. We just have not always been in a position to move as quickly as any of us would like.

We have learned a hell of a lot these past two years, and you have been a big part of that. We continue to fine-tune our knowledge and plans for RRT Wave Two and the Robotech® generations yet to come. We welcome the constructive input and want you to point out things that you think we should consider.
The Future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Spoiler:
We plan to do it all. Every mecha, combat vehicle, alien, battle setting and avenue of adventure in the Robotech® universe. And that’s from every era: The Macross Saga, The Masters Saga, New Generation, Shadow Chronicles and MORE such as the Malcontent Uprisings, the Unification War, and the Zentraedi vs the Regent’s Invid hordes and the Inorganics. If you saw it in the anime, we want to eventually include it in the expanding universe of Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
And we want your involvement every step of the way!

Size matters. For example, the size of the mecha in other eras of Robotech®. Do we keep the 6mm scale as we original planned and talked about in the Kickstarter and early postings, or do we scale them up a bit, say from 6mm to 15mm?

The knee-jerk reaction from me and the Palladium crew, as well as those of you we have heard from, is to keep the game pieces at the 6mm scale! But is it really a good idea? I want everyone to take a moment and really think about this. Remember, we all thought we wanted lots of details on the game pieces and look at what we have, mecha with a lot of small pieces to build. Some people are not very happy with that. I think we are all figuring things out as we go along, and we need a conversation about whether we really should maintain the 6mm scale for future, smaller mecha and vehicles.

When any of us imagine everything to scale in our heads, it all looks marvelous. But when you see these game pieces in real life, at real 6mm scale – the size difference is shocking and disappointing. The 6mm pieces are tiny and unimpressive. Unless you hold them up close, you can’t make out any details. They might as well be ants glued to a base. You could glue the rump of an ant to a base and you could not tell the difference between it and the actual piece sitting on the table unless you looked really close. I’m completely serious. You could glue little bits of plastic or metal shavings to a base and at the 6mm scale, a Cyclone doesn’t look much different. Even the Invid, when in scale with Macross, are tiny, like the head of an eraser on a pencil.

Consider this: When we recollect Robotech® images, it is always by the era/Robotech War. In the anime and in comic books, all the figures from that era are in scale with each other. And they work fine that way when contained to just the Macross Saga or just New Generation. But when you combine ALL ERAs at the same scale, and put them together, Southern Cross/Masters Saga, New Generation, and Shadow Chronicles, the mecha are just plain tiny at 6 mm.

Stand them next to the Macross mecha, and the later generations of tiny mecha suck from a purely visual perspective.

We’ve had some ambitious Robotech® RPG Tactics™ fans make, at their own expense, a Logan, Hover Tank, Bioroids, Cyclones and Invid via 3D printing, so we’ve seen them, and they are tiny, especially the mecha from the later Robotech® generations.

More important, I have seen RRT gamers who were absolutely insistent upon keeping the 6mm scale and ready to fight you over it — UNTIL they see the actual figures, in scale, together. Almost immediately and without fail, they suddenly have a change of heart and say, “I don’t know, maybe you should scale them up to 15mm.”

The Palladium crew and I are starting to think the same thing, that to have visually effective game pieces (and pieces that are fun to paint), they need to be 15mm. Here is why:
You need to ask yourself, what is it you want from these future game pieces?

- Are you looking for something fun to paint and pose? If so, you don’t want 6mm figures. There is little to paint and nothing to pose.
- Are you looking for something that looks cool on the battlefield? If so, you don’t want 6mm figures. They are just colored specs on a base.
- Are you looking for something that looks cool to put on your shelf? If so, 6mm figures are most definitely not it. They are just colored specs on a base.

Half the fun is painting these bad boys, and you’ve got virtually nothing or little to paint on many of these 6mm scale figures. This has been driven home to me by several professional and amateur painters who have come up to me and Wayne with increasing frequency to point out that there is nothing to paint on a 6mm figure. Some have even shown us examples.

FYI: At 15mm, the later era Robotech® mecha and vehicles like Cyclones still look proportionately and appropriately small, but offer enough size to have good detail, be fun to paint and look great on terrain or your shelf. Again, a few fans and a couple of our painters have actually gone to the trouble to make and show us how this looks in scale.

So again, I NEED you guys to really think about what you want from these next generations of Robotech® pieces. If you want something fun to paint and have recognizable detail, I think 15mm is the way to go. PLEASE let us know what you think. Ultimately, we will try to provide what the majority (if not all) of you want.

Note: To me, the ideal solution is to offer both scales in each expansion pack or blister pack; a tiny 6mm and a 15mm mecha. HOWEVER, I do NOT know if that would be cost effective or practical depending on the method of manufacturing we use make them. I mean, why provide figures the buyer may not want and may never use, especially if it increases the cost of the pack. So please do NOT decide that is the solution. It’s one possibility Palladium will investigate. Assuming we cannot offer both sizes in the same package at a reasonable price, which ONE size would you most prefer?
Wave Two – by the end of 2015?
Spoiler:
We want Wave Two out yesterday. Or even better, last year. That can’t happen. We are shooting for the end of 2015 and will do EVERYTHING we can to make that a reality. But as I hope you are beginning to understand, things are not always under our absolute control.

To be honest, we have been so savaged for the many delays and changing release dates in the past, that we are afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them. That has resulted in fewer updates over the past few months. In fact, I have had several advisors tell me not to even say that we are trying hard for an end of 2015 release for Wave Two. But we really are. That’s what I want more than anything. If we can make it happen, we will. Again, going into all the reasons for the delays or why we might not be able to make a release date is excruciating and we are not going to put ourselves or you through that pain. We just aren’t. We will, of course, release what we consider to be reasonable information and data as we get it. And we’ll try to do so more often. PLEASE remember this is all a work in progress. Things change.

We hope that you realize Wave Two and all future releases mean money for Palladium and its partners, as well as a vibrant future for the game line, so if we can get product out faster we most certainly will! End of year is the plan. If we can do it sooner, even better! But no promises. And might it be later? Maybe. We don’t know yet. When we have a much clearer idea for a release date we will post it!
Until then, we have some cool stuff coming your way
Spoiler:
We more than anyone know how murderous that wait for RRT Wave Two is for everyone. Well, we hope to soften the wait and keep you energized by doing a number of things that we hope will make it a little less painful and demonstrate Palladium’s commitment to Robotech® RPG Tactics™. In fact, we are dedicating a huge part of our time and focus over the next several months to getting RRT WAVE TWO finished by the end of the year (no promises) as well as the many things we’re listing below!

More online support with a basic set of the rules available in the PDF format – we just want to make some clarifications to the rules first. This should include paper miniatures to use to try the game out.

Additional factions and mecha cards, Force Cards, charts and other good stuff will be made available for free online in the weeks ahead. Carmen and others have been working on this material for awhile now. Unfortunately, we are all juggling other commitments, but we hope to devote much more time to making them available in the next couple of months.
Three new Convention Exclusives – Debut at Gen Con Indy, 2015 – and available to our Kickstarter backers online
Spoiler:
See, we learn from you. We are releasing three new Convention Exclusives at Gen Con Indy, but are also taking measures to make sure YOU, our Kickstarter backers, can also get them without having to go to that particular convention or anywhere. Just a few clicks on the computer will enable you to order these and many other items to expand your RRT gaming experience.

Wayne has spent the last week working out the best way of making the 3 new convention exclusives (and other good stuff) available to our Kickstarter backers ONLINE. That means you do NOT have to make it to Gen Con Indy or whatever other conventions these items may be made available. And Palladium does not do many conventions. These exclusives will ONLY BE OFFERED at conventions AND TO OUR KICKSTARTER BACKERS. They are not being made available to retail stores. So you may want to talk to your friends who aren’t part of the Kickstarter and order some for them if they want any.

For ordering instructions, click here.

You will have to pay for shipping. That’s not much in the USA, probably around $6-12 per group of three (varies with geographic location). Our online shipping calculator will inform you of the cost, but it does start to get a bit pricey to ship to Canada and overseas, and purchasers outside the USA are responsible for any applicable Customs fees, taxes, broker fees and duty.
The manufacturer working with Palladium on these is legendary GHQ, right here in the USA. We’ve been talking with GHQ since March and they have agreed to manufacture our exclusives and help us offer a number of other Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items to our backers long before they are made available to retail outlets. All are cast in 100% Britannia pewter and will have the GHQ stamp of quality.

NEW Convention Exclusives – Must place your order by July 15, 2015

1. Miriya’s Super Valkyrie in Guardian Mode. We thought this was the perfect companion to Miriya in her Female Power Armor offered in 2013. A sleek, dynamic item. $22 plus shipping.
2. Breetai ready for combat. This is Commander Breetai in a suit of Zentraedi Heavy Body Armor. His right hand opened enough to place a weapon, Micronian or the severed head of a Valkyrie or other bit of wreckage. $22 plus shipping.
3. Grell’s Male Power Armor. Includes a Grell character card for use as a Malcontent. $22 plus shipping.

● ALL 3 RRT Convention Exclusives are being manufactured by GHQ in the USA. Most of you should be well acquainted with the quality of GHQ’s Micro Armour and attention to detail.
● All are cast in 100% Britannia Pewter by GHQ and each comes packaged on a Robotech® blister card.
● All 3 will be made to order based on what our Kickstarter backers want, plus 1,500-2,000 more for Palladium’s use as “convention exclusives.” The first convention where they will be offered is the 2015 Gen Con Indy. They may also be available at a couple of trade shows and the 2016 AdeptiCon.
● All pre-orders must be placed by July 15, 2015. Once we have numbers, GHQ will manufacture them and we will ship them as soon as they arrive at the Palladium warehouse, guaranteed. Since GHQ is the manufacturer here in the USA, turnaround should be quick, probably shipping at the end of August. GHQ cannot provide us with an exact date until they know how many they’ll need to make, so please get those orders in soon. These three new Convention Exclusives will be first made available at Gen Con Indy, while supplies last. As a backer, however, you can order them from the comfort of your home.

And because you didn’t get the chance before due to Palladium’s own lack of understanding, and the fact that we continually get requests from our Kickstarter backers for them, we will also be taking orders at the same time for the 2013 Max and Miriya Convention Exclusives. Available only to RRT Kickstarter backers and at select conventions. Orders must be placed by July 15, 2015. Both are 100% pewter.

4. Max Sterling’s VF-1J Valkyrie in Battloid Mode; a couple different poses are possible. $22 plus shipping.
5. Miriya’s Female Power Armor; a couple different poses are possible. $22 plus shipping.
MORE! Something NEW – first for you

Our teaming up with GHQ as a manufacturer in the USA makes all sorts of things suddenly possible, with quick turnarounds and release dates we should be able to hit on target – give or take a week or two, not months. And they require minimal time from Palladium, which means we can remain focused on RRT Wave Two and the big push to do much more AFTER the release of the RRT Wave Two items.
Earth Defenders Blister Packs
Spoiler:
We have been working with GHQ and Carmen Bellaire with input from Mike Arnold and Thomas Roache to expand the range of combat on the battlefield. This should help provide more fun and options while we all wait for RRT Wave Two. Plus, these Earth Defenders are the type of vehicles and troops that gamers interested in the Macross Malcontents can also use to develop and play that faction. We have put together what we all agree are six fun Earth Defender Blister Packs.
Note: Like the Convention Exclusives, we are initially only making these items available to our Kickstarter backers and various conventions. Depending on your level of interest and input from our distributors and retailers, we’ll make these available to retail (probably at a bit higher price) at a later date.

Limited initial availability. We are making numbers to satisfy only what YOU order, plus some small additional percentage as tournament prizes, displays, promotion, some reorders by Kickstarter backers, and similar uses before we decide to also make them available in retail. That means you have a limited window of time to make your acquisitions.

Taking initial orders for Earth Defender Packs NOW through July 15, 2015.

1. Apache Combat Helicopter (1) – Includes flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping.
2. A-10 Warthog Jet (1) with big gun for ground attack, plus flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack.
3. T-55MV Tanks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10.
4. Cougar 6x6 APCs (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping.
5. Convoy Trucks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping.
6. Infantry Troops (8 troops per base for 24 or 32 total figs; some heavy weapons), 3-4 cards and 3-4 bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping. Note: The packs may cost more in retail.
7. GHQ is champing at the bit to make new Robotech® Macross Saga® vehicles (with their stat cards included in each blister pack), such as the Comanchero Helicopter, Cat’s Eye Recon and others in the months ahead. GHQ and Palladium can start making these available over the next few months, provided it is something you would like to see. Please let us know and we’ll jump on it. Cost of the Comanchero (1 fig) to Kickstarter backers: $12 plus shipping (1 vehicle per blister pack). Other vehicles yet to be determined. Note: The cost of all these packs is likely to be more when we release them in retail stores.

● The Invid could be coming soon to our RRT Backers. If you want us to, we are also considering releasing the Invid, Inorganics and Regent, later this year (or early next year?), along with the stats and a scenario book so that you have the Regent’s Invid as a new faction to battle the Zentraedi. This would be separate from the New Generation/Invid Invasion story line.
Why the Invid? Because it works with the Zentraedi forces already available with Wave One. The Robotech® Masters created the Zentraedi specifically to fight the Invid and to conquer other alien worlds! You already have the Zentraedi war machine, now you’d have the Regent’s Invid forces too as a faction to fight them. And the Zentraedi/Invid Wars predate the Macross Saga events of the First Robotech War in the time-line. It feels like a perfect fit! Like I said, we want to bring Robotech® to life and provide EVERYTHING you could want from this expanding game line. By the way, this was the suggestion of a Kickstarter backer at Gen Con last year, and I loved it. Cost yet to be determined at a later date. We need to know if you are even interested in the first place, before we contract with sculptors. If you are, we’d make the Invid faction available at a later date.
● You get it all first! All of these items are being made available to you, our Kickstarter backers, weeks and in many cases, months before any of it is ever made available at retail. It makes sense since you represent our core audience and most dedicated supporters. We hope you like the ideas as much as we do.
● We thought this would be a GREAT way to keep the excitement for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ strong, give you more to play with, and make sure our most stalwart supporters get first crack at some of the new stuff on the drawing boards.
● The idea to do this is based on conversations with a number of Kickstarter backers at AdeptiCon whom we talked with in confidence. (Thank you, fellas for keeping our secret and for your invaluable input.) And the addition of GHQ to Palladium’s growing range of resources and expertise.
● Best of all, none of this affects or slows down the development or release of RRT Wave Two items whatsoever. GHQ is doing most of the work, costs are comparatively small because we can manufacture to order, and being made in the USA, we can kick them out fast. There’s no waiting months and months for manufacture or shipping. And being made by GHQ, you know the quality will be top-notch.
● Harmony Gold USA has approved all of this. It’s just a matter of whether or not you want any of these Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items. Let us know. Order by July 15, 2015.
What else can you expect?

A lot. We have a great many plans for the future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We will reveal them at a later date. Our top priority right now is getting RRT Wave Two into your hands.

Better communication and more support for RRT. We have always listened to you, but I hope we’ll be able to maintain better and more frequent contact on the Kickstarter page. I hope this conversation, news and items make you happy. We would have posted sooner, but we wanted to make sure we could come through with everything we are offering.

We’re listening and aiming to please. We hope you hang in there with us, because Palladium is dedicated to you and Robotech®.
And here's the original KS thread for reference:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521733.page


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 05:40:42


Post by: Forar


Oh wow, 2 years in and now we have that new thread smell.

Mmmmm, oh, wait, yuck, don't breathe that in too deeply guys.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 05:42:00


Post by: Cyporiean


Wow.

Just wow.


Cant wait for Gen Con.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 05:43:46


Post by: Sheep


I don't understand the point of all this, I suppose I'll have to wait for the next update, but it seems like big K is getting ready to throw ND under a bus, cry poor or both.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 05:46:03


Post by: Manchu


I have tried to break the update up a bit so people can navigate it more easily.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 05:52:48


Post by: Cyporiean


Update part 2: First Blood is up now as well.

Highlights include:
fething Shocker - Mechs from completely unrelated series don't scale well with each other.

And a quest for more money.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:00:07


Post by: Manchu


Some thoughts ... on Part 1

I don't think Kevin has a clear understanding of how and why this KS ran into trouble.

His narrative seems to be that PB was swindled or at least befuddled by Ninja Division. Keep in mind his lead in is all about how PB is so established and experienced. It's one thing for Kevin and others at PB to not understand Kickstarter or international manufacturing and shipping. But what is his excuse for failing to establish a partnership with Ninja Division with clearly-defined responsibilities and obligations?

Did Kevin really sign a contract with John Cadice that simply said "Ninja Division will handle everything from start to finish"?

I don't think Kevin has effectively re-started the conversation. This is a continuation of the same old blame game. I appreciate that Kevin and others at PB are truly fans of Robotech. Even if you don't like their games, looking through any of their Robotech RPG products conclusively proves that Kevin and by extension PB care a lot more about Robotech than simply wringing dollars out of the license. To me, there is no credible question as to Kevin's love of this property.

But his management of the project, up to and including this latest update, has not lived up to his passion for the IP. Sadly, this is not a fresh start so much as a re-run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cyporiean wrote:
Update part 2: First Blood is up now as well.
I will stitch it into the OP.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:01:58


Post by: Forar


Edit: nevermind, I should've finished the update before posting. Nothing to see here folks.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:10:32


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Manchu wrote:
I don't think Kevin has effectively re-started the conversation. This is a continuation of the same old blame game.


Yup.

As I was reading it, the whole time, I'm going WTF? Nobody at PB has the slightest clue or is responsible for the mess that has their name all over it?
____

For Part 2, I'm glad that they're trying to get Wave 2 out for Holiday 2015. That is about the only good news here.

As for the questions of scale for other RT stuff, I don't really care. I just want my Destroid Monster. If it's detailed and many pieces, that's fine, because I'm only building one, once, so it might as well look great.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:29:09


Post by: Manchu


Some thoughts ... on Part 2

The scale debate seems to be over even before Kevin bothered to ask KS supporters about it. IMO it is obvious that Southern Cross and especially New Generation need to be in a larger scale. But of course this is not obvious to everyone. The real issue is, Kevin has clearly already made a decision here. It is IMO the right decision. It just kind of rankles that he's framing an attempt to explain the decision he already made as an invitation to discuss what the right decision should be.

That style is behind a lot of the troubles with this KS.

Similarly, here we have promises for all kinds of new stuff from GHQ ...

... but where is the evidence? Where are the scultps? Are they complete? If so, why not show them? If not, why not and when will the be done? If there are sculpts, are the molds ready? If so, where are the samples? Anything painted? If not, why not?

There may be very good reasons for not having any of this information to go along with the promises.

But KS backers don't know those reasons.

Explaining this sort of thing is called transparency. My take-away from Part 2 is this "re-started" conversation is probably not going to involve much transparency beyond "here's my decision and why I made it" despite the lip service to those of us who gave him so much money years ago.

Thinking over Parts 1 and 2, my overall conclusion is ...

Did anyone edit this update/these updates? I mean, someone outside of the same old confidants. My feeling is, PB continues to be a closed system and this update shows Kevin is not actually open to perspectives beyond his inner circle.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:33:05


Post by: paulson games


So he was apparently the unsung champion of low piece count models, yet we have how many parts on each model?

I sure as heck hope he's not referring to me as the unnamed potential partner because the Tomahawk I presented to him was only 8 parts, the defender 7, and the spartan would have been 6, the majority of the models I was proposing were under 10 parts. The only models that had a high-ish count were the battle pods and only because they have a ton of lasers. I could have gotten the production pod down to about 12-13 parts. How many parts are the simplest plastic kits?

Evidently Kevin feels all the early interest was exclusively generated by Tom and his dozen or so blog readers, certainly none of it had anything to do with the models I'd been promoting nor the face book page I organized that was actively being followed by over 2.5k people. Nice revisionist history Kevin.

Love the quip about research being crucial to everything, yet at every turn they are as wide eyed as a babe in the woods. Tell us again how much you researched the gak out of things when you were blindsided time and time again about the process then cry but we're only rpg book guys how are we to know?

19 pages of excuses and blame game.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:39:04


Post by: Cyporiean


I'd love to hear what's going on with the resin kits (ie the SDF1), it's not like there is crazy steel molding issues that need to be worked out for them. I think that by now Paulson and I could have easily cranked out 1 for each backer... Each.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:39:14


Post by: Lynx7725


Am a backer. The two-parter just made me mad enough to have to comment on it.

What PB did right: They communicated -- that's one; they firmed a date for Wave 2, that's good. They are initiating discussion on the scale problem, that's good too.

What they didn't get right:

1. If they are really, really listening to the backers, then they should know that in their comms, tell them FIRST about the intention to deliver the rest of the deliverables. If the update has prioritized to say up front: "We are going to do our damn best to deliver by Dec 2015, these are our milestone dates..." I'd be a lot less angry.

Instead, we got the relevant in a small blurb buried in the wall of text, which in summary: "We are going to do our damn best to deliver by Dec 2015, but no promises." Not quite good enough, but something. Not reassuring at all, but at least a date.

2. Instead of a proper plan to move forward, we get a recap with a distinct whiff of "Not my fault". Look, from a professional standpoint I'm always willing to listen to the screwup stories, they can be very interesting... but not as the bulk of an update. From a corp-communications perspective, this is a major fail.

3. The whole sordid tale about the 3D file formats issue sounds more like somebody leading either ND, PB or both around by the nose. Something stinks in there, really.

Frankly I have no issue with companies having no experience with international commerce or wargaming, or kickstarters, everyone has to start somewhere. But... being honest about the mistakes is one of the biggest things to gain from this exercise, learning the right lessons, etc. I'm not sure that's being achieved here. Hence, I'm not sure the future would be any brighter.

4. With regards to the scale issue.. no surprises from anybody in the wargaming side I think. But, can they like get a proper strategic plan first? If, the company feel strongly that we should move towards 15mm, then why initiate the Invid-Zentraedi discussion? That'd lock everyone back into 6mm, unless PB wants us to rebuy all the Macross stuff that we have now, just in 15mm. Can they make up their bloody minds?

5. Asking us for more money: Ah duh. Not bothered; it's the job of companies to ask us the consumers for more money. Each of us just have to decide whether to toss money into it or not.

Overall: The update isn't great. The back story is good to have but I'd expect some backshots from ND in near future -- if this turns into another Dust the Kickstarter laundry session, I guess I'd have to break out the popcorn. There is a date for Wave 2, which is good, but very little assurance that it'd get there smoothly. Any discussion of future Robotech stuff is moot.

Personal opinion is that we'd get our Wave 2, and it may be sucky to assemble, but we'd get there. Beyond that, I'm not sure anyone wants to back for SC or Mospeda stuff, given the track record.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:39:24


Post by: Manchu


 paulson games wrote:
How many parts are the simplest plastic kits?.
Regults are 15 parts not counting the base. By comparison a Glaug has 24 parts.

I don't mind the part count at all. To me, this part of the saga has been a non-debate.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:40:46


Post by: Stormonu


Long story short:

PB thought they could kick back and do no work and rake in a ton of money. When they discovered they would actually have to do some work to earn that money, they fell flat on their faces. Then proceeded to get swindled by the Chinese with fake stories about how "simple" miniatures couldn't be done.

Oh, yeah - and they think we'll buy more stuff from them.

My favorite line

Palladium Books is an established company. Not some fly-by-night startup. We have been creating and publishing role-playing games since 1981. That’s 34 years, folks, and we have no intention of going away.


Yeah, ya'll are about as relevant and established as Radio Shack.


ALL OF THIS AND NOT A PEEP ABOUT THE ACTUAL STATUS OF WAVE 2.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:44:57


Post by: Manchu


 Lynx7725 wrote:
they firmed a date for Wave 2
PLEASE do not leave this thread thinking that. PB did not actually firm up the Wave 2 release date. All we have here is Kevin's passionately-felt hope that Wave 2 might be ready by the end of 2015 ... and he took the trouble to say he posted that much (his hopes!) against the advice of his inner circle.
 Lynx7725 wrote:
They are initiating discussion on the scale problem
As I mentioned above, it really seems like Kevin has already had this discussion with the inner circle and come to a decision. The remaining "discussion" seems to be whether there is enough demand for 6mm stuff to include them along with 15mm kits ... which will create cover for delays and mistakes as Kevin is already talking about how this will be complicated and drive up costs. If these kits are so tiny and devoid of meaningful detail, one wonders how producing them will be such a burden. And if designing them and manufacturing them and distributing them will be a significant burden, then we arrive back at the decision already made: the rest of the Saga will be in 15mm. And that's not a very meaningful discussion, IMO.
 Stormonu wrote:
ALL OF THIS AND NOT A PEEP ABOUT THE ACTUAL STATUS OF WAVE 2.
This bears repeating, honestly. Maybe there will be a Part 3?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 06:57:32


Post by: Lynx7725


 Manchu wrote:
 Lynx7725 wrote:
they firmed a date for Wave 2
PLEASE do not leave this thread thinking that. PB did not actually firm up the Wave 2 release date. All we have here is Kevin's passionately-felt hope that Wave 2 might be ready by the end of 2015 ... and he took the trouble to say he posted that much (his hopes!) against the advice of his inner circle.

Ok, let me rephrase that. They said they want to.. and then said no promises. So no, I won't treat it as a firmed date.

I'm more lenient than most here though, I'll just take it as a target date and move on.

Frankly, do I think PB wants to make an effort to hit that date? Yes.

Do I think they will hit the date? Signs point to no, since they never really displayed any positive project management capabilities to date.

Do I think Wave 2 will eventually appear? Yes, but don't hold your breath.


 Manchu wrote:
As I mentioned above, it really seems like Kevin has already had this discussion with the inner circle and come to a decision. The remaining "discussion" seems to be whether there is enough demand for 6mm stuff to include them along with 15mm kits ... which will create cover for delays and mistakes as Kevin is already talking about how this will be complicated and drive up costs. If these kits are so tiny and devoid of meaningful detail, one wonders how producing them will be such a burden. And if designing them and manufacturing them and distributing them will be a significant burden, then we arrive back at the decision already made: the rest of the Saga will be in 15mm. And that's not a very meaningful discussion, IMO.

Actually we know he had an internal discussion; reports out of the open house clearly indicates that they are thinking of this problem. I don't disagree with you that this brand of "discussion" is not really much of one, but from a house that's notoriously intractable in discussing anything, it's already a big step forward. I suppose what I meant was, "relatively speaking to previous PB conduct, this is a great thing".

What really really annoys me is that if they really want to do Invid-Zent, an area which I think has a lot of potential, they have to keep things at 6mm or those Zent mechas are going to go massive. Just imagine having to put together and transport Battlepods that are twice the height and dimensions, in order to fight 15mm fights. If they are thinking about rescaling, and thinking about this too, can they put the two together and consider the whole picture instead?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 07:05:36


Post by: Manchu


The issue I meant to point out is, the scale discussion is exactly as you said -- internal. What role do the backers actually play? Accepting the decision made internally and Kevin's explanations for it.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 07:10:57


Post by: Lynx7725


 Manchu wrote:
The issue I meant to point out is, the scale discussion is exactly as you said -- internal. What role do the backers actually play? Accepting the decision made internally and Kevin's explanations for it.

Shrug. It's like with most company decisions.. If they are listening, then what the backers can do is to state their opinions calmly and rationally, and then they take it up internally again. If they are not listening, then me ranting about it won't do anything except drive my blood pressure up.

At least, PB opened the door a crack. I'll just drop a note at the Kickstarter and be done with it. Hey, maybe my opinion is in the minority and the majority actually wants something different...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 07:19:51


Post by: Stormonu


Well, scale change won't matter to me, I'm not buying any of it after this fiasco we currently have on our hands.

Which is a shame, if this thing had been handled better I would have leaped at all the stuff they were offering (especially Sentinel stuff, like organics).

But, if I were to throw out my opinion, I'd like to have seen the entire line resized at 12mm (or larger). Something on the size of Wizkid's Mechwarrior Dark Age cliks game (I think that's N or Z scale?) The current scale is TOO small to feasibly support both SC and Invid stuff, especially single figure cyclones.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 07:53:24


Post by: Morgan Vening


 Manchu wrote:
The issue I meant to point out is, the scale discussion is exactly as you said -- internal. What role do the backers actually play? Accepting the decision made internally and Kevin's explanations for it.
Maybe, like with last year's GenCon sale, they'll have another "vote". In that they've already made their decision, but they want the veneer of it being the backer's choice.

It's a tired old callback, but it's not as if it'd be the only one. In the Invid section,
You get it all first! All of these items are being made available to you, our Kickstarter backers, weeks and in many cases, months before any of it is ever made available at retail. It makes sense since you represent our core audience and most dedicated supporters. We hope you like the ideas as much as we do.
That they'd have the balls to say this again, even if the situation is admittedly different, just speaks to "We have learnt nothing whatsoever about communicating with our backers.".

Basically, for me, the project shows a woeful lack of planning. Mr Paulson was able to put together prototypes to show what was possible at the scale. That NOONE in the PB braintrust thought to do either the Tomahawk or Regult start to finish (design, prototype, mold production, test sprues), to see what was possible, and how it all went together, would have solved 98% of the design and integration issues. But that would have required a little investment. So feth that.

Let alone doing the most basic of checking into how shipping from China works. You don't need to be experts, and some lessons could be learned. But speaking to someone with actual experience, and most of those problems would have been solved, or minimised, instead of waiting until the crap was on the docks in China before realising "Oh crap, now what?".

Most of the rest was covered by other commenters. The TLDR for those who don't want to waste their time.
Ninja Division checking out the bus suspension up close, check.
Kevin an unheralded genius, check.
Kevin an unprecedented visionary, check. Twice.
Vague commitment to wave two, check.
Zero actual progress shown on wave two, check.
Option to give them money for stuff of varying levels of interest, check.
Exactly what I expected after 3 months of "soon", and hearing it'd be 19 pages? Check.

Seriously, I feel like the principal in that scene from Billy Madison.

"Mr. Siembieda, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 08:23:16


Post by: Fireflyjmh


Wow... just wow... $22 for one figure is simply crazy. I'd have been interested in maybe paying $22 for all three poses of Max/Myria, but $22 for a guardian. Nutty.... Especially when all one needs to do make either character is simply paint them blue or red. sheesh....

I think much of the backers' angst could have been avoided with more frequent updates. I backed the Incursion game and the creators were wicked good about posting updates, good, bad or ugly, they were posting something. Just throw us a bone...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 09:09:52


Post by: Sining


This update was a sheer utter waste of time. I can't believe they actually wasted time writing this crap down


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 09:16:02


Post by: NTRabbit


Palladium are so bad they actually make GW look like Apple


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 09:19:31


Post by: Sining


They're delusional is what they are. They think that after 1 year of delays, and then several months of NOT shipping to ROW customers, that suddenly a 'proper' introduction of Palladium is going to make things alright?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 09:34:10


Post by: Morgan Vening


Sining wrote:
This update was a sheer utter waste of time. I can't believe they actually wasted time writing this crap down
The worst part isn't that they wasted their time. It's that this was what they spent three months hyping and building towards.

Sure, they covered the obvious (the GHQ partnership). But while they omitted the even more obvious (actual visual progress of Wave 2), there's other things that they also failed to mention. They had a throwaway line on Adepticon and the Open House. Why no details from that? The former could be kind of excused as I don't believe it was an "official" tourney, but they did mention elsewhere that they spent a fair amount of time there. The Open House though, the inaugural tournament, the first one "hosted" by Palladium (at least as much as anything is "run" by Palladium), nothing. No pictures (not surprised), no winners, no reports on how it went, nothing. Kevin wrote mammoth posts on the Open House experience. And one sentence fragment in the Update is the totality of it for RRT.

The bar had been set so low for this update that it'd actually recessed into the floor. And PB still failed to clear it. Forar idly hypothesized a while back this may be some kind of performance art. I don't think it is, but for those who aren't completely emotionally invested, maybe it'd be better to believe it is. Cause with this Update being all they have to show for three months of work, don't expect things to get any better. This is Kevin's ceiling for quality/dignity/respect.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 10:15:36


Post by: Sining


I mean, does anyone really care about the GHQ partnership when we don't even have a timeframe for Wave 2 yet? Other than maybe this year?

If they can get the GHQ stuff out before Wave2, this doesn't bode well for their finances with regards to fulfilling the KS


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 10:49:35


Post by: solkan


I can just picture in a meeting someone shouting "For God's sake, if we were dealing with spin cast metal or resin, we could have produced these figures already. Why don't we just do that?"

So, as far as I can, the "I don't want to read two pages of rambling update" summary is:
1. The Plastic Production Disaster continues on its inevitable course.
2. The people responsible for the making new unit cards and the like are currently refugees from the PPD and are releasing stuff that people complained about not having when Wave One came out.
3. The PPD refugees encountered a band of roving spincasters who they convinced to produce a new set of convention exclusives, and a set of trial run vehicle models.
4. Someone, somewhere, pointed out that providing the models to the Kickstarter backers would both be a good test of market interest, and at least sound like a nice gesture to the fans that haven't been completely alienated.

What are the odds that they're going to have pictures of the models available between now and the pre-order deadline?



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 11:37:28


Post by: Albertorius


Well... it's funny how much you can write without saying anything much of consequence. I guess those 35 years of experience on RPGs paid off big time.

The only three things of substance I think I get from that are:

1- We might get Wave 2 this year. Might. Probably won't. But MIGHT.

2- We need more money, so we're going to try to monetize you again, for some random gak at stupid prices. Who knows, maybe some of you suckers will bite.

3- We want to give the semblance of caring about what you want for the other Rtech eras. But we'll be doing them in 15mm (not that I personally give a gak, there).

As for GHQ's 1/285 stuff... it's quite funny how passing through the Palladium filter changes things:

1. Apache Combat Helicopter (1) – Includes flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (Same price... well, 5 cents less at GHQ)
2. A-10 Warthog Jet (1) with big gun for ground attack, plus flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack (Same price... well, 5 cents less at GHQ)
3. T-55MV Tanks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 (You get 5 per $9.95 at GHQ)
4. Cougar 6x6 APCs (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (You get 5 per $9.95 at GHQ)
5. Convoy Trucks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (You get 5 per $9.95 at GHQ)
6. Infantry Troops (8 troops per base for 24 or 32 total figs; some heavy weapons), 3-4 cards and 3-4 bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (You get 108 troops per blister for $9.95 at GHQ)

So... yeah. Pretty sure I'll be buying from Palladium directly, yeah >_>


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 11:52:24


Post by: Joyboozer


Oh, feth off. Seriously, Palldium just feth off you useless pack of witches.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 12:02:09


Post by: solkan


On more positive news, it looks like Diskotek Media is going to be releasing Super Dimension Century Orguss later this year ("Aiming for an end of August release (TBD).")

So I'll have a copy of the show to watch while I wait patiently for my not-Orguss models to be produced.



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 13:01:17


Post by: Alpharius


Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 13:33:58


Post by: Krinsath


Forgive me for not slogging through that entire 19 page update, but the throwing of ND under the bus, while completely expected, is just laughable. However, the idea that they're starting over and trying to do better I think tops it for hilarity given that everything seems to be continuing on as-is. Not really showing how you're reforming your ways to improve there.

If one would like to know what recovering from a KS debacle looks like, I'd actually submit Soda Pop/Ninja Division as the example. They had Relic Knights and with the break-up with CMoN making that something of a fiasco, then they run Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King and pocket a comparable amount to RTT (less, but in the same ballpark) despite a lot of (justisfied) concern. Compare and contrast the updates feed for those who didn't back that project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-forgotten-king

Now, has the campaign been flawless? Nope, they've still messed stuff up along the way. However, there was really no doubts about where things were at any point in the process, and as you can see they communicate on a schedule and with actual "stuff" even if it's just "hey, look, a card." Based on that evidence, I don't think it's hard to pinpoint the likely breakdown over here (not that most of the people reading this thread had any doubt of course).


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 13:49:22


Post by: warboss


It took all of 5 minutes for the thread to get thrown in the subforum ghetto...

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=148475

Spoiler:
The 19 page update is unfortuantely 98% heart and 2% plan for the future despite all the obvious effort put into it. It's been said hundreds of times on the kickstarter comments that sadly Palladium does not monitor so I'll repeat it here in a bigger font to stress the completely missed point...

SHOW, DON'T TELL!!!

NMI, if you really want to help palladium then send them a link to this thread instead of locking/deleting/moving it. If they're really interested in changing the dialog with fans who are not happy whom they're supposedly addressing the update to, they should read this before and not have it pre-emptively swept under the rug.

You want to change the scale? SHOW the pledgers why the change needs to happen with actual pictures of the models that you are using to make the decision next to the current macross ones. Don't just tell us. I actually support that change with the caveat that ALL the new gen models with the scale bump are still visually at a tabletop distance (3-4ft) smaller than macross destroids and valkyries by a bit. There is nothing stopping you from using multiple scales either like 15mm for the most troublesome cyclones whereas the alphas and betas and invid get bumped only to 10mm. You've got the official RRPGT models. You've got the fan made unofficial ones at 6mm. Why didn't you just post a pic of them with a big disclaimer on the bottom about the source? If you had a reason why you couldn't (like HG not allowing posts of fan figs in official RRPGT communication) post that instead to at least indicate that it occurred to you at some point that a picture, like the old adage, is worth a thousand words.

While it is nice that you basically confirmed pledger rumor and innuendo as well as objective problems visable to almost all from two years ago, you have yet to SHOW us anything concrete regarding wave two in 19 pages of updates. Any checklist of various steps necessary for EACH AND EVERY mini to come to market posted in a hand table format that would be UPDATED EACH AND EVERY UPDATE? Updated pics SHOWING the minimal changes you could make for all those hours of work to reduce parts count compared to what was before? None of the above. This update isn't a "restart" of communication but rather just an admittedly heartfelt continuation of prior (inconsistent and infrequent) communication. It doesn't factually and objectively address ANY of the concerns for the future production that pledgers have based on the unacceptable experience of the last two years but just injects new ones. You claim that the Invid production won't affect wave 2 since someone else would be working on that but that is EXACTLY what you said about RRPGT two years ago regarding other RPG output. Do you see how that could feel like a repeat of the past rather than a restart?

If you want to truely "restart" communication with backers, the new openness in confirming openly what most of us have already known is only the first and frankly only a minor one in the grand scheme of things. The most important step is confirming without a doubt that you're willing to provide consistent and continous MEANINGFUL information about the current progress of wave 2 via objective and indisputable data (tables with actual numbers and dates) and not just the vague flowery language and occasional pie in the sky date. I didn't back a Macross kickstarter in 2013 to get Invid figures two years later while 2/3 of my sculpts are as of yet undelivered. You focused on giving us some vague info about the new stuff and NOTHING new and concrete about the much more important and massively delayed existing minis.

TL;DR: Address the current and future product and problems honestly, openly, factually, and consistently FOR SEVERAL MONTHS in a row and I will believe that Palladium AT THAT POINT wants to restart communication. That would be unprecedented for this two year post KS period and a real indication that you're restarting the conversation. This update unfortunately does NOT meet those criteria.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?


Only the latter but only if they do it right... which given the source is unlikely.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 14:20:01


Post by: Lynx7725


 Alpharius wrote:
Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?

Well... that presumes the game, in any scale, isn't already dead. Which it certainly isn't popular, or active enough to count as one of the more popular game lines, to the best of my knowledge.

The 6mm line actually gives the models, not the game, some added life since a good number of CBT players in my area picked them up to represent the Unseen; they are not Robotech fans per se, just want to get back the original sculpts.

My feel is, if they swap scale only for SC and Invid, it's still doable because it is a problem that people can understand. But if they swap scale and insist to drag Macross into it, the backers who paid for 6mm stuff would just collectively flip table, since that invalidates their entire collection to boot. From a consumer acceptance perspective, it's pretty suicidal for a line to do that. Even offering to buy back the minis or an exchange program won't help them, and I can't see PB doing that ever. That reputation would stink up the whole line, potentially sinking SC or Invid along with Macross. So, yeah, not good prospects.

The only game system that I can recall doing that is Heavy Gear, and frankly I don't think they ever recovered from it.

Also, their game rules will probably have to rewrite and I'm not really sure it can take the rewrite.

End of day, PB's inexperience with handling tabletop wargaming just shows through.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 14:48:07


Post by: Cyporiean


 Alpharius wrote:
Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?


Well, the Japanese price 1/100 (close to 15mm) Macross kits at around $20.. for a single form. I doubt PD would be capable of getting pricing anywhere near that for a single Valkyire.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 14:52:07


Post by: warboss


 Lynx7725 wrote:

End of day, PB's inexperience with handling tabletop wargaming just shows through.


It's a lose lose situation. They've been in the RPG business for 30 years and their "experience" shows through there as well with multiyear delays on almost every announced product and layout and art straight from the 1980's. If you have a company not willing to change because they did something right a quarter century ago, the end result is the same. In Kevin's mind, the fact that he got into the Origins RPG hall of fame yesterday for "consistently" putting out good products for 30 years just reinforces his preconceived notion that he is just awesome.;


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 15:34:27


Post by: Sining


PB just needs to run their 2nd KS already so we can all laugh even harder at them. You know it's coming


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 15:48:33


Post by: Forar


Sining wrote:
PB just needs to run their 2nd KS already so we can all laugh even harder at them. You know it's coming


That's the day I break out 'the good stuff' and just enjoy watching a comment section tear itself to shreds.

Not that I typically wish ill upon others, I find that generally crass and crude.

But I'm not above a little schadenfreude, and that thing will be a mess of their own making.

Seriously, whomever moderates that thing will deserve a civilian commendation of some sort and to be allowed to put whatever time they spend doing so towards time served for any indictable offenses they may ever commit.

It's going to be bad.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:00:20


Post by: warboss


As I said in the past (and got suspended for 3 months at the palladium forums for), I will pledge $1.00 on the next KS simply to post my thoughts for years to come.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:08:07


Post by: Sining


Did anyone catch this line in the update

""It turns out the type of manufacturing we’re doing is fairly new to the hobby game industry."

How long has GW been manufacturing HIPs again?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:10:03


Post by: Forar


A cursory Google search is saying that they made the move in the 2000's, 10+ years? Maybe 15? I'm not a WHF/40K player so that's just what the interwebz have to say.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:12:39


Post by: warboss


 Forar wrote:
A cursory Google search is saying that they made the move in the 2000's, 10+ years? Maybe 15? I'm not a WHF/40K player so that's just what the interwebz have to say.


They've been making polystyrene plastic kits since the 1980's but obviously the quality and design creation method has improved since then... except.. you know for Robotech kits in the 1/200-1/285 scale.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:15:17


Post by: Sining


KS is pretty much just rewriting history to fit his narrative. His world view must be pretty intr


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:16:45


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?


PB can't afford to redo the 6mm stuff in 15mm. We are looking at 2 very different scales, that simply should not play on the board together.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 16:18:19


Post by: warboss


Has anyone watched the open house RRPGT tourney coverage posted on youtube? In catching up with comments on various places, I found a link and the excitement is palpable in the first few minutes I've been watching so far.




Also, why did the guy purposefully attach the fisheye lens? I keep thinking the beasty boys will start playing.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 17:08:02


Post by: Noir


Does anyone remember the days it only took a half page to say "I'm a control freak, so I trashed the freelancer stuff and redid everything myself, blah, blah, blah". But, I guess becouse he already has the cash he felt he should add more pages this time.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 18:04:21


Post by: Nomeny


Interesting to read. Seems a little tone deaf, but certainly some good lessons in there to learn if you're going to run your own KS. When I was trying to bring a game to market I got a lot of offers to manufacture in China, and I'm glad I gave up on the idea rather than trying to run with it in China; reading that was pretty much what I expected to happen.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 18:40:51


Post by: Smilodon_UP


 Stormonu wrote:
Palladium Books is an established company. Not some fly-by-night startup. We have been creating and publishing role-playing games since 1981. That’s 34 years, folks, and we have no intention of going away.
Yeah, ya'll are about as relevant and established as Radio Shack.
 warboss wrote:
 Lynx7725 wrote:
End of day, PB's inexperience with handling tabletop wargaming just shows through.
It's a lose lose situation. They've been in the RPG business for 30 years and their "experience" shows through there as well with multiyear delays on almost every announced product and layout and art straight from the 1980's.
If you have a company not willing to change because they did something right a quarter century ago, the end result is the same.
Getting really not funny how all of these small companies trying to put out miniature games can't see that touting their years of experience, while consistently having repeating boneheaded mistakes during that history, comes off as the exact opposite of what point they were trying to reinforce.

Because they make a point to say how they've been in business for decades, yet:
- Expected to have another company handle all of the heavy lifting?
- Expected not to have to educate themselves on international production, shipping, transloading, reshipping, etc etc etc?
- Expected there would be no shortfalls after estimating total costs "for the game we wanted to make" approaching a million USD?
- Expected considerably less response while possessing the attitude of having been the "sole purveyor" of Robotech to the masses for decades?
- Expected there would be no delays whatsoever, that everything would go off as planned despite having done almost none of the detail planning themselves?



 paulson games wrote:
So he was apparently the unsung champion of low piece count models, yet we have how many parts on each model?
 Lynx7725 wrote:
3. The whole sordid tale about the 3D file formats issue sounds more like somebody leading either ND, PB or both around by the nose. Something stinks in there, really.
I've noticed with some other kickstarters that the same excuse keeps getting trotted out: how can the company winning the bid to make the molds never once have mentioned during the lead-up process to manufacture what format would have to be used for the model render(s)?
Or that no one at all ever stopped to ask about how everything would fit together once said models(s) were made from said mold(s) made from said render(s).
This seems like exactly the kind of hand-holding that should occur during negotiations and whatnot before anything else gets decided, as part of seeking out that manufacturing capability in the first place.



NMI wrote:This topic, for now, will not be locked as the original poster was relatively "constructive". This status could change depending on how others comment on this topic.
 warboss wrote:
It took all of 5 minutes for the thread to get thrown in the subforum ghetto...
sheesh, FFS, the immediate response is "I won't modhammer this, yet."?

Unutterably lame.
Just because KS et al decided to post almost nothing at all of consequence in a supposed appeal to their constantly shafted backers after more months of platitudes doesn't mean folks have to actually believe any of the vaporware as if it were some sort of gospel.

_

People will notice the change in your attitude towards them but won't notice their behavior that made you change. - unknown webism

"The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!"

- Professor Brian Cox, March 24, 2011

_
_


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 18:42:02


Post by: Lynx7725


Nomeny wrote:
Interesting to read. Seems a little tone deaf, but certainly some good lessons in there to learn if you're going to run your own KS. When I was trying to bring a game to market I got a lot of offers to manufacture in China, and I'm glad I gave up on the idea rather than trying to run with it in China; reading that was pretty much what I expected to happen.

This part is where PB gets a bit of sympathy from me. It's obvious from reading that there is a dearth of plastics and 3D modeling experience within the management; they were talking about things that are very obviously outdated or inaccurate. This isn't a problem that's unquie to PB, it's an old outsourcing problem, and one that they likely never encountered before.

Without knowing all the details, it smells of someone being led around by the nose by somebody else. Whether that someone is PB or ND or both is largely irrelevant (but would be hugely comical to know). At the end of the day, it's a crappy situation, and their hang-tough attitude to get product of whatever quality out really didn't help the situation. The whole gang really should have done their research better -- they basically just jumped blind. The kicker in the whole sad sod? They didn't even know they jumped blind, nor I suspect they learnt just how blind they were. Trusting folks, those...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Smilodon_UP wrote:
I've noticed with some other kickstarters that the same excuse keeps getting trotted out: how can the company winning the bid to make the molds never once have mentioned during the lead-up process to manufacture what format would have to be used for the model render(s)?
Or that no one at all ever stopped to ask about how everything would fit together once said models(s) were made from said mold(s) made from said render(s).
This seems like exactly the kind of hand-holding that should occur during negotiations and whatnot before anything else gets decided, as part of seeking out that manufacturing capability in the first place.

The way I understand things -- not that I'm an expert by any means -- is that file formats should not be that big a concern. Firstly, a lot of free modeling software already support exporting in multiple formats; secondly, a lot of these also have converters which may not do a great job, but should keep the problems smaller. The parties involved of course should still lock down the exchange parameters, as good practice.

Additionally, for a manufacturer to have to specify a very narrow range of formats it can take, implies a few things... firstly, either the original modelers did stuff in some weird ass piece of software that is not widely supported, or the manufacturers are so small time that they don't have the IT specialists to smooth over these issues. Either is a big problem in this kind of project, because the former means your IP is intrinsically locked up with a piece of software, the latter meaning your manufacturer may not have enough expertise to pull this off anyway.

And of course since this all went through somebody absolutely failed in the procurement and project management aspects. But we know that already.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 19:05:46


Post by: wilycoyote


I am not going to add to anything to what has already been said about the "It was not me , it was him" sobstory.

However, if KS is really set on a scale change who has he been talking to?The jump tp 15mm which would seem to be his preference would mean high price single kits to sell and what are the cast in pewter (collectors only apply here) REsin possible but again high selling point. Plastic well it will need either a lottery win or the KS route tp get the cash for these - anyone paying this time around.

I am really sorry that KS might think he is the messiah, but he cannot walk on water or save this now


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 19:34:53


Post by: Merijeek


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I don't think Kevin has effectively re-started the conversation. This is a continuation of the same old blame game.


Yup.

As I was reading it, the whole time, I'm going WTF? Nobody at PB has the slightest clue or is responsible for the mess that has their name all over it?


Literally. But they don't get that and never have. They are sadly typical that way. In charge of everything, responsible for nothing.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 20:14:36


Post by: megatrons2nd


The stated size of the later series mecha has always seemed small to me, or rather the 1st war stuff was stated to be to large. Some of the screen shots have hands, as compared to a person, similar in size as the earlier units.

I am not worried about a larger size for 2nd and 3rd war stuff as the 1st war stuff. It will make the models a little larger, but they will still be tiny comparatively.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 21:13:24


Post by: totalfailure


That was quite the load of gak, even by Palladium's standards. Taking up two full updates to say almost nothing important, except blame others again...

So despite 'maybe' being six months out, where are the pictures and renders of this mythical wave 2 that we've seen nothing of, except the ugly, half a@@ed stuff you showed off a few months ago? I guess that has to be enough 'mouthwater' to hold us over until whenever....

To all those expecting an upscale to Macross to the already all but decided plan to make future chapters a bigger scale, it may not be possible. Remember, this already had to be RPG Tactics just so they were game pieces and not toys...Who knows what evil lurks in the license from the Harmony Gold overlords, but there is no doubt a limit on what they can do before they are not game pieces and not covered by license any more.

My level of care has sunk to a barely registrable point anyway now. They can make whatever models they want in whatever size they feel like, or change the rules - I won't be buying any regardless...



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 21:19:11


Post by: Forar


Fun fact, it's been 99 days since the last tangible Wave Two info.

Gonna roll over into that big 100+, and hell, we'll be lucky if they drop Actual Info in less than 2 weeks.

Edit: oh, and Gencon is in 51 days, and we all know that weeks will just disappear as they commit to working super duper extra mega hard on prepping for that!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 21:27:58


Post by: Talizvar


Not a "restart" it is a "rehash".
Nothing new, really, absolutely nothing at all other than much admitting to things we pretty much figured out.

STILL NO CONCRETE NOTES ON WAVE 2 STATUS OR PROGRESS.
The months shall continue to stack-up of nothing to say other than the anticipated hope of before Chirstmas with no promises since they are gun-shy of keeping them.

The rewriting history of being so sure of so many issues is a nice touch by Kevin of allowing himself to go against his better judgement.. sheesh!
They really want to say that ND was little more than a KS decorator to make it look good but no actual work toward product after funding was the intent?
What kind of contracts do these guys make with all their hired out help for the RPG stuff?
Really? I am pretty sure I am being told an untruth here.

GHQ is going to be another ND, the partnership may turn to be interesting, I am sure we will hear much of the long model vetting process.
Well of course if you are bothered by anything official then getting the models with their cards is important .
It is funny the cost fooling around PB is doing with a products already being sold.
Notice they said multiple times to buy now or pay more later... daddy needs more money for the sculpting and tooling costs.
I would love to know who owns the molds when all this is done, I mean for the metal offerings.

So, a whole ton of excuses, pleading for understanding and forgiveness.
I cannot accept a "sorry" when someone pulls the same BS again and again, they really are not all that sorry.

I feel I am being lied to, or facing hopeful revisionist history (same thing) and how much is completely dependent how how dumb they claim to be is true.

I am a bit heated because nothing here has changed after pages of what is literally garbage.

W2orSTFU.

I am so looking forward to another kickstarter.
They will get $1 from me, not a cent more.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 21:44:23


Post by: Mike1975


#1. Scale, PB does not know which way to go and there is a lot of people throwing opinions out there. If you want to be heard please vote on the FB page so that PB does not just pick up the squeakiest wheel and run with it.

#2. ND and PB, yes PB feels like ND was not up front. Yes, they felt like ND was going to do more. Yes, ND could have done a lot of things better like the freaking squadron cards.

#3. #2 should never have happened. PB SHOULD have done some research and asked some questions and had it down EXACTLY who was going to do what and to what point. That is what likely soured things. PB assumed ND was going to do more and it was not part of the deal as far as ND was concerned. It was caused by a serious lack of communication between the two. There is NO excuse to later say, "Whoops! We thought they were going to do more!" I think that is pretty bad. Now I understand that some of this is new and that they have less experience. It was ND that pushed for China and all BUT PB and ND should have had the squared away before the first signature on any contract was signed.

#4. OK, we get that this is something new for PB and that many other KS's face the same problems BUT this is something that should have been shared over a year ago.

#5. More info and details on wave 2 should have been in this update as well as what and if any changes were or are going to be made on the Lancer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Linky

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1440349382851175/


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 21:49:33


Post by: Merijeek


Sining wrote:
PB just needs to run their 2nd KS already so we can all laugh even harder at them. You know it's coming


Nah. Indiegogo - one of the ones where you don't have to meet funding goal to get to keep the money. Free money!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:01:41


Post by: Talizvar


Basically they are trying to get us to consider opening up the purse strings to them again.

Not a single thing in that massive wall of text they put out gives any compelling argument to send any money their way that had not been said before and failed.

Yes, nice they are confused on scale but guess what? You can tell from the writing KS has already decided on 15mm, the illusion of choice is being presented like the Gencon vote.

Mike1975: I respect what you have done for this game to this point but PB has messed this so beyond giving any kind of benefit of doubt. It is going from a leap of faith to being a sucker in short order.

Done.
Want my stuff.
No facts given, assuming the worst on Wave2.
GHQ may get money from me at some point but none for PB if I can help it.

Just the witching hour of releasing the big document from PB shows KS still up to his usual habits so forget it.

No start over: they have not, why should we?
Those double standard fools.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:01:48


Post by: Duskland


If they're smart they'll make sure it's someplace that doesn't have comments. I think that the open nature of the kickstarter comments came as a big surprise to PB. PB seems to prefer the near police state of their own forums.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:06:50


Post by: Talizvar


 Duskland wrote:
If they're smart they'll make sure it's someplace that doesn't have comments. I think that the open nature of the kickstarter comments came as a big surprise to PB. PB seems to prefer the near police state of their own forums.
Comes from living in a vacuum or their preferred "echo-chamber".

That was rather obvious when they tried to keep most released information at their site or email updates.

Too bad that the KS page will be the first people go to when they try to start another KS and people see what other ones they had done.
Never mind the $1 donation to be able to discuss the pending rewards and purchases from the prior funded KS.



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:13:26


Post by: Alpharius


How is the latest update being received over in the KS Comments section?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:39:49


Post by: warboss


 Smilodon_UP wrote:
Getting really not funny how all of these small companies trying to put out miniature games can't see that touting their years of experience, while consistently having repeating boneheaded mistakes during that history, comes off as the exact opposite of what point they were trying to reinforce.

Because they make a point to say how they've been in business for decades, yet:
- Expected to have another company handle all of the heavy lifting?
- Expected not to have to educate themselves on international production, shipping, transloading, reshipping, etc etc etc?
- Expected there would be no shortfalls after estimating total costs "for the game we wanted to make" approaching a million USD?
- Expected considerably less response while possessing the attitude of having been the "sole purveyor" of Robotech to the masses for decades?
- Expected there would be no delays whatsoever, that everything would go off as planned despite having done almost none of the detail planning themselves?

_


I guess that is what you should expect when a company chooses to surround itself by fan friends unwilling to criticize any decision by them and makes the conscious decision to only hire from that pool of fan friends.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:51:06


Post by: Talizvar


 Alpharius wrote:
How is the latest update being received over in the KS Comments section?
Making me seem like an apologist in comparison.
Your MOD sensibilities would be itching for the "ban" button?
They are being pretty logical about it otherwise and largely claiming BS on PB being blameless rather than clueless as they claim.
Also many pointed out the Gencon "fiasco" so, yes PB really needs people to start over because it looks like they are pulling old tricks.
Large novels being written in comments, refusing to drink the koolaid.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 22:59:44


Post by: Merijeek


There are a surprising number of names that have never been seen to comment before who are saying "this is bs".

But then again, that seems to happen every time Kevin seems to think that his magic pen is all it takes to make Everything Better(TM).


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 23:07:10


Post by: Manchu


Clueless, not blameless. That pretty much sums it up.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/07 23:35:50


Post by: warboss


 Alpharius wrote:
How is the latest update being received over in the KS Comments section?


Toxic... like Chernobyl meets Exon Valdez meets Gamer Armpit Funk on day 5 of a Con with no running water. So basically as expected when Palladium addresses none of the current concerns in the mega/only real update in 100 days on a project on track to be 2 years late if everything goes perfectly from now on.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 00:20:58


Post by: Talizvar


Seeing them rolling in on the KS, you could all go look.
It is not pretty however.
I am unsure what kindness and understanding Kevin was expecting.
Many wallets will be closed to them until some "real" information on wave2 is shown.

I honestly figure this big document is a smoke screen.
The other shoe will drop when the funds expected do not happen.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 02:53:56


Post by: Merijeek


Drag it out until people forget about it, or just plain give up in disgust?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 04:49:29


Post by: warboss


For gaks and giggles, I decided to take the Bill Coffin RPG Palladium rant of 2003 and update it for RRPGT in 2015. I've tried to keep the meaning the same and only replace the parts and names that don't apply (like "book" for minis game and RRPGT for "rifts greenland"). This is a satirical work that had (other than the original inspiration/source linked below) no input from either Ninja Division or Bill Coffin. I was simply curious after this mega update just how much of the spirit of the infamous rant of an ex-Palladium employee rings true over a decade later in a new genre.

Original work: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?74137-What-s-up-with-Palladium-and-BTS&p=1445566#post1445566

My parody:

Spoiler:
One of Kevin's biggest problems is that he is a micro-manager in the truest sense of the word. He runs an operation where ultimately, every single decision must go through him, and frankly, that's too much for one person to do and still keep up a company whose primary asset is a steady stream of new intellectual property. He's still living this fantasy where he thinks he can oversee everything himself and still go home and bang out a great minis game complete with mouthwatering plastic miniatures in seven months. Do you see the folly in this? You do? Well, bully for you, because Kevin sure doesn't.

This is where another big problem of his comes forth and compounds his first problem: Kevin simply cannot accept the fact that sometimes he is wrong or might have fallen short in something. Work with the guy long enough, and you'll see this is the case. He never, ever accepts responsibility for something bad that has hapened to the company. Or if he does, he couches it in terms of how he's too much of a nice guy and gave Idiot Ninja #23 a break when he should not have, or he was too open a boss and Treacherous Scumbag #44 stole his artwork, and so on. His fault, but not really his fault.

As a result, he surrounds himself with people that he can shunt blame to, ignoring all the while that you can't really shunt anything away from yourself in a company where you are the one guy who ultimately approves every single thing that happens. But, he does it anyway, which is why when an order gets boggled, it's one of his worker's fault. When he can't get writing at home done, it's the fault of somebody in his family. When he assigns miniature designs to be created, has fully crystallized views on what that sprue layout ought to be but does not share them with the modeller, and gets a sprue layout he didn't expect, why, that's the modeller's fault. When the distributors don't order 8,000 copies of his latest miniatures which are two years overdue, it's the tough marketplace's fault.

(IMO, this explains why Kevin holds some measure of disdain for pretty much everybody in his life -- the way he sees it, everybody he comes into contact with lets him down at some point or another. For a guy who feels like he's propping up the efforts of a bunch of halfwits and marginal talents, he still can't see that without all those people, he wouldn't have a company.)

These things have a nasty tendency to pile on top of each other and create vicious circles of which Palladium's goofy production schedule is a great example.

It starts with Kevin receiving a proposal for the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter. Kevin likes the pitch and greenlights the project. Whatever the partner's ideas for the game and their own share of the responsibilities are, Kevin gets jazzed over the concept of the project and develops all on his own what the project ought to be and who will be responsible for what. Only, this is going on while poor Ninja Division is writing the rules and designing the miniatures, so surprise, surprise, when the project gets turned in, it's not what Kevin wanted and they don't want to do more than agreed upon. This is a classic case of somebody hating Black Hawk Down because when they went ot see it, they were in the mood for M*A*S*H and Inglorious Basterds double feature. So, Kevin does what he does best, he writes his corporate partner a patronizing letter on how excited he was when the project was first pitched and how disapointed he was that all that promise never materialized and they didn't pull their weight. Sometimes, the partner doesn't take this well, and they go off on Kevin, which is never a good thing because then it prompts Kevin to call his other freelancers, read to them the letters he and Angry Ninja traded back in forth and lament about how sad it is that there are so few professionals in this business.

But back to work. We now have a Robotech RPG Tactics that is not to Kevin's liking, but he wants to put the game out, both because he wants his vision of it realized and because he needs new product. Objectively speaking, it might, in this case, be smart to write off Robotech RPG Tactics and instead put out the minis game with model designs and rules he's been working on himself. Only he can't, because he hasn't been working on a minis game or model designs himself. He's been busy running a company by chewing out the guys in the warehouse, shutting down a helpful fan over preserving his right to sell colored fist dice he'll never produce once the kickstarter is fulfilled, and calling his other freelancers and writing murmurs for his fan friends to bitch about how difficult his life is.

Thus, as the revised earlier shipping day looms, Kevin has no Robotech RPG Tactics, and no UEDF Marines in Space, exclusive backer objective markers or whatever he really ought to have been working on all this time. But he's got bills to pay, so he must produce something. And, since he got all fired up about the very idea of Robotech RPG Tactics way back when the project was first introduced, he started pimping the game thirty-two seconds after he received a signed copy of the contract from the partner company. So now the pledgers expect Robotech RPG Tactics whether its ready or not. And what's more, he put the game and minis on a release schedule that would only be met if every stage of the project's production goes entirely according to plan.

There are (surprise!) a few problems with this. One, by now Kevin ought to know full well that unless he's got a dependable full-time project manager working for him he hits his schedules a fraction of the time. So, until he goes a year or two hitting every single release date on the nose, he ought to budget 50% more time for his projects than he does. Or at the very least, he should have the decency to not get bent out of shape when his unrealistically planned project goes overdue by several years, further cementing his company's reputation for having one of the most unreliable production schedules in the business.

The second problem at this stage of the game is that Kevin never actually looks at the finished game rules or prototype minis until it's a few weeks away from its schedule production date with the factory in China. This, my friends, is akin to a flight crew performing a pre-flight check on a plane that is taxiing down the runway. If Kevin were smart, he'd give all incoming manuscripts and 3D files his full attention the moment they hit his desk a) to see if they are any good and b) to speed the production process along. Kevin's partners and employees would certainly do a better job of making sure the project is what Kevin wants if Kevin molded it a bit himself to begin with.

But no, what happens is Kevin gets the rules and digital model files, often holds on to it for a period of time, then drops it on Jeff or Wayne, who he routinely criticizes for not really being able to edit. Then, 12 days before the estimated Kickstarter delivery date, he expects to be able to do a quick brush-up edit himself on a the rules and 3D models that by his reckoning, shouldn't need it anyway. This particular recipe for disaster, in comparison, makes mixing buckshot, nitroglycerine and pistachio ice cream together in a Slurpee machine seem like the next big thing in frozen desserts.

Thus we come to the best part of the process, where Kevin -- already disgruntled because he feels obligated to rewrite the Robotech RPG Tactics rules and redesign the 3D model files into what it should have been compatible with the factory in the first place, and even further disgruntled because he feels this is pulling him away from the projects he really wants to be working on (even though he really wasn't working on them anyway) -- undergoes a commando revamp of the project. He's got about two weeks to do it in, a vision of the finished project and about three half-decent ideas ot get him there. Obviously, Kevin can't get blood from a stone, so he writes up some half-strength filler Kickstarter updates, knocks about some copy paste material for the weekly update , and takes what he likes from the original Robotech RPG Tactics contract with pledgers, giving himself co-credit for having the wisdom to give it a second chance. If he's really hard put, he'll take a look at the promises he made and modifty them unilaterally till they're convienent again. ("Hmm...this promise about backers getting minis first costs me money but it sounds cool, so I hereby declare that it'll be "first" in their area. Nobody will mind if I ship to distributors who then ship themselves to those regions, especially once I copy paste the new promise and scribble a few more details about respecting backers myself..."). If he's got a white knight who he trusts, he'll call them up and ask for an aggressive series of posts on the forums defending the decision by the end of the weekend.

What's that, you say? When does he play test any of this stuff? That's a good question. Too bad it's got a bad answer. For starters, he's only got a few days between when he finishes the project and when he gets it out to the Chinese factory, so there's no time for a proper shakedown. Not that any of this needs one, don't you know, because the Palladium project management style works, it's rock solid, the fans like it judging by the number of pledges that came in two years ago, and all those jerkoffs over at Dakka Dakka who keep telling him to revamp the parts count of the minis can kindly take a flying feth at a rolling doughnut. Third, when I was still working for the man, Kevin didn't ever play a minis game in his life. He was too busy running a role-playing game company. (Some poor saffron-clad Tibetan is up in the mountains right now trying like hell to wrap his brain around that one.)

Once Kevin's ready for layout, he throws the mess of 3D printed pieces out on the table and pops open his super glue because he still puts these damned things together from sheer memory. What's that? Accurate assembly instructions? Naw, he's faster without it! To his credit, he assembles the minis in fairly decent time, but he also illustrates why all prototype minis have awkward poses and a hodgepodge of mismatched bases. Kevin isn't going to buy matching bases for GAMA or line up all those large seams on the front of the minis because he might have to spend more than 45 minutes or more assembling each individual miniature, and when he does, all those minis look like they posed while running with their legs asleep. Where this really makes you want to bang your head against the tip of an artillery shell is when he approves 80% of the parts layouts, discovers that he'd like to rework the design of the sprue to get more mouthwatering detail and decides that it would be too much work to do so while keeping the poses dynamic. You know how every time in a Robotech RPG Tactics booster box you'll have a series of sprues or something and all of them have small parts that are split into way too many parts? That's why. I used to think it was because Kevin wouldn't assemble a 30mm tall model himself. Now I know it's because he's truly, madly, deeply in love with breaking down each model into so many split pieces that even Monty Burns would decry as old-fashioned and overly complicated.

Voila! He's finally got Robotech RPG Tactics in the bag and off to the factory. And all it took was him not sleeping for a year (after he already skipped two years' sleep handling the Northern Gun Crowdfunding sourcebooks fiasco), telling a fresh fan friend turned employee who allegedly stole from him to go take a hike, calling up his other workers to say that somehow this might be his best work yet, executing a slapdash sprue layout job, recycling old rpg rules into a minis game and telling himself over and over again that nobody does it like than he does. In that regard, he's dead on, because 1985 ended way back in NINETEEN EIGHTY fething FIVE.

This is the crazy way in which Kevin Siembieda produces a minis game. I don't really know exactly how he handles the precise details of managing the rest of his operation, but I always felt that his minis game production methods set an ominous precedent.

If any good comes out of it, it is all thanks to him. If any bad comes out of it, well, then it's your fault and my fault and that guy's fault and her fault and the industry's fault and the fault of that fether who sold him a soggy pierogie yesterday and...you get the picture.

What really keeps this vicious cycle going, however, is that for a long time, Kevin was extremely successful working this way. So successful, in fact, that it reinforced all those nasty elements I've outlined so far, proving not only that Kevin was right all along, but that the way he does things is practically the Gospel According to Kevin, patron saint of keeping it real in the miniatures industry, and that he just got inducted into the Origins Hall of Fame. Only the GAtK doesn't really work that well anymore. Sales are slipping because the company's only minis game has come out two years late and counting, its other planned minis games haven't materialized yet and -- get this -- the new stuff coming out before the kickstarter is fulfilled is largely recycled designs from a 6mm metal minis company and are supposed to work with the stuff he hasn't actually made yet. (There's a Tibetan monk working on that one, too.) And of course, taking the fans' input into consideration for what they'd like to see, such as a simplified parts count or a consistent scale for all three eras, is simply out of the question. Maybe he's too busy writing up 19 page kickstarter updates about how he gives his fans what they want or something.

But the bottom line is that all is not well, and that some major changes ought to be made to keep the business dynamic and thriving. But those changes keep getting ignored while it gets harder and harder to sell product that is already coming over in smaller containers and half filled tournament attendance. Times are tough, no doubt about that. And you know what? Maybe, just maybe, it's not the industry's fault or some custom broker's fault or the weather's fault, or his pet goose's fault. Maybe it's Kevin's fault.

Naaaaah.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 05:14:25


Post by: Swabby


How does this company make money? I am baffled at this update. Total incompetence.

I can't believe how pretentious Kevin is. I knew there was some hubris there, but this raises the bar.

Are we really expected to not see how blatant of a cash grab this is? A-10s in robotech now? Wth is going on over there.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 11:19:05


Post by: Conrad Turner


Maybe I'm weaker than most. I had seriously given thought to ponying up some more money for the exclusives. It may have helped them out, and gotten us our W2 that bit quicker as they could have used the new orders to re-set the clock meaning we'd have had some [all] of the same excuses whilst waiting for the new stuff, but they'd have used the money to pay for the shortfall in W2. The delays in the new stuff covering the fact that they are actually using income from RRT and other stuff to pay for the new stuff.

But after that 'updaaate!" You can kiss my hairy, brown [Expletive Deleted]!

Is KS actually going for a world record? How many times can you throw someone else under a bus? How many different people can you throw under the same bus? How many 'updates' can he post that have absolutely zero factual, new, content?

Where were the pictures of whatever progress they have actually made? Why did they make no mention at all of the resin stuff, and why weren't the 'exclusives' resin?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd have a hard time choosing which bank to use if my only two choices were one run by a convicted fraudster and the other was run by an incompetent moron. Personally I believe that in that situation, "Money in a bedsock under the mattress" would be increasing faster than any bank account.

All Kev's pleas of "We didn't know it was this HARD, honestly" are just proving that they didn't do their 'due dilligence' properly. I am amazed that they didn't end up getting fleeced by everyone else - has anyone checked the Chinese factory car park?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 12:32:02


Post by: CaulynDarr


That update is brilliant. Some of the best satire I've ever read. I especially like the part where he claims credit for the the popularity of Anime in NA because he was the only one selling Robotech VHS tapes for like 6 months.

Or wait? Was that all serious?

Someone should let that guy know he's not the great BS artist he thinks he is. And he needs to realize that being successful in 1989 doesn't count for much in 2015.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could someone who has some actual experience with oversees manufacturing comment on the file compatibility issue? That claim he makes about that being normal part of the process has a smell to it. It seems rather fishy that all these Chinese factories have to essentially re-model every bit of design work given to them.

That has got to be an issue with the quality of the factory they chose to issue. Otherwise, what's the point of digitally designing anything. You might as well just send the factory some drawing on a napkin if they can't use your 3D files.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 13:04:03


Post by: Alpharius


I haven't really been paying too much attention to the RPG scene for...a long time now, but is Palladium really a 'force' in RPGs, and has been for 30+ years?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 13:08:36


Post by: legoburner


 CaulynDarr wrote:
Could someone who has some actual experience with oversees manufacturing comment on the file compatibility issue? That claim he makes about that being normal part of the process has a smell to it. It seems rather fishy that all these Chinese factories have to essentially re-model every bit of design work given to them.

That has got to be an issue with the quality of the factory they chose to issue. Otherwise, what's the point of digitally designing anything. You might as well just send the factory some drawing on a napkin if they can't use your 3D files.


Having done a lot of 3D work in plastic now, I can comment on this authoritatively. There have been a lot of issues in the industry as a whole with converting sculpts to something which can be tooled in plastic. If the original sculpt was done in zbrush, then it usually requires some very heavy cleanup work as the zbrush exports are pretty crap. Double/triple so if undercuts, draw angles, etc were not considered in the design process.

If a more engineering (CAD) based bit of software was used (as you'd expect for robots), which uses the combination of shapes rather than a 'digital clay' type of sculpting, the conversion process is a lot simpler, provided you are working in the same CAD software as the tooling company is familiar with and have open dialogue with them during the sculpting process. If both are using solidworks for instance, you can get some very nice, fast results.

If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

If the formats provided by the sculptors were fixed and non-malleable (eg; STL, OBJ), it was sculpted with only cursory knowledge of the tooling requirements, and the plastics company was not using the current cutting edge software for miniature production, then the plastics company would definitely have needed to resculpt the models from scratch in whatever engineering software they prefer to use as a source file.


It turns out the type of manufacturing we’re doing is fairly new to the hobby game industry. There are serious conversion and incompatibility issues in converting the 3D models done by the sculptors to what needs to be done in China to make the molds and go into manufacturing. This is not just something Palladium and Ninja Division ran into, it’s true for EVERYONE using this type of manufacturing process.


It is true for about half of the plastic model companies out there, but not everyone. GW, Maelstrom's Edge, Dreamforge, and others do not have this problem because the sculpting is done with full plastic tooling in mind from the start, and the sculptors are aware of the relative limitations of the medium.


How could someone not have made a conversion program for these incompatible files (3D sculpts versus what the manufacturer/factory needs)? However, we have since had this confirmed by the folks at Dust and several other game companies that this is, indeed, the case, and there is no way around it at the present time. Crazy, right?

This quote is a little more strange. There is software that will convert all but the worst files (all the way up to generating NURBS from an STL/OBJ), but it is really, really expensive so only about 3 companies in the miniature world that I know of use it. There is no automated conversion if the sculpts are badly done or badly exported (not manifold, inverted normals, etc) which might be it? Most likely is that the plastics firm are engineering focus and the 3D files provided were a more organic format, but anything I say here would be pure conjecture so needs several grains of salt.


To complicate matters further, the engineers in China have to adjust the 3D sculpts further to take into consideration the manufacturing process and the types of metal molds that are required. That makes certain undercuts and details impossible, and requires different approaches and more numerous pieces to make the detailed game pieces all of us Robotech® fans wanted.

This bit is completely standard, and all as might be expected. Plastic is a trade off of different sacrifices.


So the tl;dr; is that unless you are working with the tooling company from the outset, there are usually file conversion issues of varying complexity so it is quite reasonable to expect notable delays off the back of that.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 13:18:40


Post by: CaulynDarr


 legoburner wrote:
Spoiler:
 CaulynDarr wrote:
Could someone who has some actual experience with oversees manufacturing comment on the file compatibility issue? That claim he makes about that being normal part of the process has a smell to it. It seems rather fishy that all these Chinese factories have to essentially re-model every bit of design work given to them.

That has got to be an issue with the quality of the factory they chose to issue. Otherwise, what's the point of digitally designing anything. You might as well just send the factory some drawing on a napkin if they can't use your 3D files.


Having done a lot of 3D work in plastic now, I can comment on this authoritatively. There have been a lot of issues in the industry as a whole with converting sculpts to something which can be tooled in plastic. If the original sculpt was done in zbrush, then it usually requires some very heavy cleanup work as the zbrush exports are pretty crap. Double/triple so if undercuts, draw angles, etc were not considered in the design process.

If a more engineering (CAD) based bit of software was used (as you'd expect for robots), which uses the combination of shapes rather than a 'digital clay' type of sculpting, the conversion process is a lot simpler, provided you are working in the same CAD software as the tooling company is familiar with and have open dialogue with them during the sculpting process. If both are using solidworks for instance, you can get some very nice, fast results.

If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

If the formats provided by the sculptors were fixed and non-malleable (eg; STL, OBJ), it was sculpted with only cursory knowledge of the tooling requirements, and the plastics company was not using the current cutting edge software for miniature production, then the plastics company would definitely have needed to resculpt the models from scratch in whatever engineering software they prefer to use as a source file.


It turns out the type of manufacturing we’re doing is fairly new to the hobby game industry. There are serious conversion and incompatibility issues in converting the 3D models done by the sculptors to what needs to be done in China to make the molds and go into manufacturing. This is not just something Palladium and Ninja Division ran into, it’s true for EVERYONE using this type of manufacturing process.


It is true for about half of the plastic model companies out there, but not everyone. GW, Maelstrom's Edge, Dreamforge, and others do not have this problem because the sculpting is done with full plastic tooling in mind from the start, and the sculptors are aware of the relative limitations of the medium.


How could someone not have made a conversion program for these incompatible files (3D sculpts versus what the manufacturer/factory needs)? However, we have since had this confirmed by the folks at Dust and several other game companies that this is, indeed, the case, and there is no way around it at the present time. Crazy, right?

This quote is a little more strange. There is software that will convert all but the worst files (all the way up to generating NURBS from an STL/OBJ), but it is really, really expensive so only about 3 companies in the miniature world that I know of use it. There is no automated conversion if the sculpts are badly done or badly exported (not manifold, inverted normals, etc) which might be it? Most likely is that the plastics firm are engineering focus and the 3D files provided were a more organic format, but anything I say here would be pure conjecture so needs several grains of salt.


To complicate matters further, the engineers in China have to adjust the 3D sculpts further to take into consideration the manufacturing process and the types of metal molds that are required. That makes certain undercuts and details impossible, and requires different approaches and more numerous pieces to make the detailed game pieces all of us Robotech® fans wanted.

This bit is completely standard, and all as might be expected. Plastic is a trade off of different sacrifices.


So the tl;dr; is that unless you are working with the tooling company from the outset, there are usually file conversion issues of varying complexity so it is quite reasonable to expect notable delays off the back of that.



With that information in mind, I could see it being some combination of ND producing models that where not necessarily built well for injection tooling and Palladium not wanting to pay the money to get the models converted or re-done in a proper way. So they just let the factory sort it out with the predicable results.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 13:40:25


Post by: warboss


 Alpharius wrote:
I haven't really been paying too much attention to the RPG scene for...a long time now, but is Palladium really a 'force' in RPGs, and has been for 30+ years?


They were one of the top selling RPG companies in the 1990's at the height of their popularity but it has been downhill since then mainly because they refuse to change. The ex-employee behind the scenes post I linked above with my modern parody already lists flagging sales in 2003 and they certainly haven't gotten better since from my fan/ex-fan outsider's view looking in. I attended gencon during both periods for over 10 years straight and played palladium games during that time and definitely noticed a distinct drop in GM'ed games from 1994 to 2006 to the point where one year there was only one or two palladium games total in the prereg book whereas in the 90's there were dozens. I can't comment on more recent gencon #s though as I haven't gone in that time; they started pushing their reps very hard to run gencon games right after the KS funded so I'd expect that to have gone up (regardless of the popularity) as they made it a big priority as opposed to previously when the running of the games was largely up to individual GM's with little to no palladium input. I did a quick google search and it appears the only data I know of (the ICV2 rankings as well as the White Wolf magazine rankings I didn't know about) seem to confirm my own (admittedly biased) observations.

1990's: "rising star", "slowly overtaking FASA as the #3 RPG producer"

http://www.rpg.net/columns/designers-and-dragons/designers-and-dragons4.phtml

2000's: not a single listing

http://www.kirith.com/random-wizard/articles/rpg-ranking-by-year.html

Insert disclaimer about wikipedia commonly accepted fallacy here since I didn't vet the original sources of either and am just linking it. I can say for the past five or so years that I have been paying attention to the ICV2 rankings every quarter, Palladium has absolutely never shown up. The rules that were already made fun of back then still are 98% the same and the layout and art (albeit supposedly digital now for the former instead of actual hot glue cut and paste) are just as dated. Even a robotech rpg book I picked up after this kickstarter that was made in the last few years has an abrupt very noticeable change in the spacing and font midway through the book because they couldn't be damned to edit it down to fit into the page count they chose nor bothered to increase the page count by a 16 sheet and generate more material. They simply chose to resize a few chapters of text instead with a button click similar to how in the Coffin rant they couldn't be bothered to properly alphabetize lists because it was too hard to change pages once the hot glue dried.

The same rules that people made fun of in the 1990's are copy pasted into "new" games and editions including RRPGT. Back in the 1980's when clunky cobbled together rules were the norm (like D&D 2e), the Palladium system didn't stand out from the pack negatively in terms of mechanics and the story and breadth of theme shone through. Nowadays when companies build their games from the ground up to work as a cohesive unit (or license systems that have been), their insistence on using a distinctly 1980's style/theme/mechanics system stands out like a poop covered sore thumb. The FFG 40k RPGs show that you can have a retro-feeling rpg mechanics system that works cohesively in the modern era so it's not that Palladium can't have one... they simply CHOOSE not to. They couch it in terms of not wanting to devalue player book collections but it's more that they physically lost alot of the cover art in their "crisises of treachery" as well as them being unable to redo the books given that they were literally cut and pasted with hot glue together so redoing them is not as simple as opening an old computer file and going to work. I'm a very vocal critic of GW and their recent screw you 2 year book life cycle change but even on a bad day I would wholeheartedly support a company who wants to update an RPG book after 25 YEARS!! And, yes, 20-25 year old rifts books are still completely current offerings on sale on their site with no significantly change made during that time beyond a mid 1990's typo correction or very rare errata.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 13:43:44


Post by: Forar


 Alpharius wrote:
I haven't really been paying too much attention to the RPG scene for...a long time now, but is Palladium really a 'force' in RPGs, and has been for 30+ years?


Not remotely. Their own forum has a thread dedicated to noting stores that sell Palladium Books, err, books. Such a rarity as they are 'in the wild'.

And yes, before you ask, you'd think Palladium would have a better source for such info through their distribution/sales, but apparently 'fans seeing books in stores and posting about it' is a more efficient way of compiling data.

I'd say they were a bigGER name in decades past, at least among my friends. But to call them a 'force in the industry' today would be vastly overstating their clout.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 13:45:20


Post by: warboss


 legoburner wrote:
[
So the tl;dr; is that unless you are working with the tooling company from the outset, there are usually file conversion issues of varying complexity so it is quite reasonable to expect notable delays off the back of that.


Thanks for the much more detailed (but not quoted above) explanation. In regards to the above, would you say that two full years is a reasonable period in which to be able to fix even the most complex conversion issue or is that much longer than you as a creator would find reasonable if it were the case with Medge?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:06:42


Post by: Krinsath


 warboss wrote:
 legoburner wrote:

So the tl;dr; is that unless you are working with the tooling company from the outset, there are usually file conversion issues of varying complexity so it is quite reasonable to expect notable delays off the back of that.


Thanks for the much more detailed (but not quoted above) explanation. In regards to the above, would you say that two full years is a reasonable period in which to be able to fix even the most complex conversion issue or is that much longer than you as a creator would find reasonable if it were the case with Medge?


Thanks for the info lego!

While not as authoritative as lego, I would point out that DreamForge had sculpts I'd characterize as much more complex than RTT sorted out in 2 years give or take. That looks to be about the timeframe that KD:M took as well from the same manufacturer. I'm not sure there's more complexity around in the world of HIPS than those two lines at the moment, though obviously they're dealing with a factory that is quite capable if not quite speedy. So my mildly under-informed opinion would be that given competent communication, 2 years can sort out most of the issues in even the most horrendously complicated kits.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:11:36


Post by: Lynx7725


Swabby wrote:How does this company make money? I am baffled at this update. Total incompetence.

I can't believe how pretentious Kevin is. I knew there was some hubris there, but this raises the bar.

Are we really expected to not see how blatant of a cash grab this is? A-10s in robotech now? Wth is going on over there.

Actually since HG owns Robotech, and PB works with HG to open up avenues, this isn't as bad as it sounds. It's actually a good thing to expand into, because it allows for stories and fights to be done about pre-unification Earth, using familiar technologies. It's not a bad move (other than the markup) from a storytelling perspective.

From a business perspective, it's terrible. Aside from the "cash grab" feel to it, there's also the problem of long-term relationships with GHQ. If there is going to be a scale change, and Macross is included, does that mean anyone who bought the GHQ stuff is going to have to rebuy 15mm stuff? Good grief, if true, who'd want to invest?

I look at it from GHQ's perspective, it's kinda like, "Oh sure, no prob, we'd model, mold and cast up 6mm stuff for you exclusively, both ways, on demand. Yes, no problem, you can keep the original masters and mold, we don't mind... because if you guys tank, I don't want to hold on to your staff that won't sell, and if you switch scale later, I don't want to hang on to your stuff that won't sell for me either. Only way I want to hang on to your stuff is if there's enough demand, and you'd give me the masters at that point anyway so that I can manufacture your products for you."

From a certain perspective, GHQ can have very low risk in this endeavor, while PB is taking on loads of development, change and customer management risks. Ow, that's just asking to take it up the rear end.

legoburner wrote:
If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

(....)

It is true for about half of the plastic model companies out there, but not everyone. GW, Maelstrom's Edge, Dreamforge, and others do not have this problem because the sculpting is done with full plastic tooling in mind from the start, and the sculptors are aware of the relative limitations of the medium.

I bow to superior knowledge.

To be honest, any projects that deal with new technologies (to the company) carries significant risks. In this case, a possible scenario is that PB trusted ND's sales pitch and thought ND would handle the technological angle. But it turned out that ND didn't know as much as they thought they knew, or that the manufacturer was not as advanced to be able to help them quickly overcome that obstacle.

This in no way absolve PB of their responsibilities to the backers. End of day they are the fronting company; ND and the manufacturer are just subcontractors, in a sense. PB fell flat on their faces doing management of the overall work, no real oversight or follow up on progress tracking that would have nip a lot of these problems earlier, or at least allow them to communicate issues to stakeholders earlier. Sounds familiar? Yesh, it does.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:16:06


Post by: warboss


I'd also add that with KD that the minis seem to vary ALOT more in size and that they don't seem to be splitting the shipping into waves. Also, the KD and DF minis are actually mouthwatering and very well designed as sprues from my limited perspective. I may not be a fan of either visual style personally but I did find the sprues to be very competently done and the end result really reflected the original concept without an odious amount of effort required.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:19:54


Post by: Lynx7725


 Krinsath wrote:

While not as authoritative as lego, I would point out that DreamForge had sculpts I'd characterize as much more complex than RTT sorted out in 2 years give or take. That looks to be about the timeframe that KD:M took as well from the same manufacturer. I'm not sure there's more complexity around in the world of HIPS than those two lines at the moment, though obviously they're dealing with a factory that is quite capable if not quite speedy. So my mildly under-informed opinion would be that given competent communication, 2 years can sort out most of the issues in even the most horrendously complicated kits.

I backed Dreamforge too and received my stuff. There's quite a bit of difference in this case.

Dreamforge went in with quite a bit of experience with 3D modeling for HIPS production, and the guy already spent a considerable amount of his own time coming up with models that he knows can work with HIPS production methodologies. In essence, the guy knew the tech risks and knew his way around the shop, so the risks are significantly lesser in the second KS he did.

Dreamforge hooked up with Wargames Factory, so they had a very experienced production team whose main focus was to do plastic model production. While Wargames Factory's internal miniature design team isn't that good (their plastic kits are ok, but not great), their technological team is very, very good, I'd rate them just a hair below GW's in-house team, and better overall because they had to deal with different customers with differing technology base. So the technology risk there is further reduced because of the experience of the manufacturer.

Dreamforge also had a good grounding in project planning, and he communicated well with his backers, showing them the schedule breakdown (which I didn't bother too hard with), and was able to clearly explain why there are delays. His constant and clear business communications to the backers was reassuring and in the end, sure there are grumblings but the goods delivered.

So it's not 2 years to deliver the product -- it's 2 years (or whatever length it really was) to get plastic out to me, but only made possible by a lot of experience on both sides of the design, development and implementation team.

EDIT: Oh, and it helped a lot that the guy's primary focus for the entire time is to get the project off the table. I think communications between Dreamforge and Wargames Factory was smooth even with the timezone difference because the Dreamforge side had nothing else business-wise that had higher priority. In RRT's case? SNORT.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:25:17


Post by: warboss


 Lynx7725 wrote:

From a certain perspective, GHQ can have very low risk in this endeavor, while PB is taking on loads of development, change and customer management risks.


I'd say it is extremely low risk. Even if GHQ has to put up the money for the moulds themselves (assuming that this isn't even zero risk by using EXISTING moulds), the initial listing of vehicles is very generic and is at 6mm is in a popular scale for both current era military games as well as scifi games like Battletech. Even if Palladium's hail mary cash grab fails, at worst GHQ will have A-10s, Apaches, and generic trucks to produce for a myriad of other games/uses. The only substantial risk over and above their everyday risk would be for the next series of vehicles that are more specific Robotech/Macross only designs made in a scale that the Palladium has all but decided to abandon before the first molten metal even hits the mould. GHQ can simply make the generic stuff for one summer, see how/if it sells well enough to meet their own goals, and then expand as needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lynx7725 wrote:

EDIT: Oh, and it helped a lot that the guy's primary focus for the entire time is to get the project off the table. I think communications between Dreamforge and Wargames Factory was smooth even with the timezone difference because the Dreamforge side had nothing else business-wise that had higher priority. In RRT's case? SNORT.


I'm not sure about that part with Dreamforge. There was a good year there where he was getting dates from the factory that would then be missed and he'd be shuffled much further down the line as a lower priority. IIRC, he specifically said that he was given a discount on their services so was thankful they were making it regardless of all the line cutters constantly being put in front of him. Lego may or may not be able to shed light as to the lead time necessary to prebook factory time at Wargames depending on his deal with them (and whether it has an NDA or not).


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:32:01


Post by: Lynx7725


 warboss wrote:

I'd say it is extremely low risk. Even if GHQ has to put up the money for the moulds themselves (assuming that this isn't even zero risk by using EXISTING moulds), the initial listing of vehicles is very generic and is at 6mm is in a popular scale for both current era military games as well as scifi games like Battletech. Even if Palladium's hail mary cash grab fails, at worst GHQ will have A-10s, Apaches, and generic trucks to produce for a myriad of other games/uses. The only substantial risk over and above their everyday risk would be for the next series of vehicles that are more specific Robotech/Macross only designs made in a scale that the Palladium has all but decided to abandon before the first molten metal even hits the mould. GHQ can simply make the generic stuff for one summer, see how/if it sells well enough to meet their own goals, and then expand as needed.

Nah. The immediate stuff, I bet GHQ is using existing stock. That's zero risk. I was talking more the Robotech specific stuff, like those APCs and choppers specific to the series, that won't sell outside of a Robotech/ Macross context. No matter which way I cut the pie, it's still very low risk from GHQ side if they negotiate right, with PB eating a lot of risks, so it's just strange that PB is willing to stick its neck out like that.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:35:15


Post by: Albertorius


 Alpharius wrote:
I haven't really been paying too much attention to the RPG scene for...a long time now, but is Palladium really a 'force' in RPGs, and has been for 30+ years?

Er... no. Not by a long shot. They were, back in the... late 80s, early 90s, maybe even mid 90s (although never over here, that was just back on the US. Here they've always been irrelevant). Then D&D 3.x got released a long with the OGL, and they suddenly went irrelevant. They've continued being so since then.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:36:01


Post by: Lynx7725


 warboss wrote:

I'm not sure about that part with Dreamforge. There was a good year there where he was getting dates from the factory that would then be missed and he'd be shuffled much further down the line as a lower priority. IIRC, he specifically said that he was given a discount on their services so was thankful they were making it regardless of all the line cutters constantly being put in front of him. Lego may or may not be able to shed light as to the lead time necessary to prebook factory time at Wargames depending on his deal with them (and whether it has an NDA or not).

Oh sure, there were hiccups. To be perfectly frank with you, in my professional line of work, schedule delays are inevitable, so I tend to ignore those. There are projects that are absolutely time critical, but I've learnt to treat gantt charts with an enormous slab of salt.

During the Dreamforge work, I was reassured that he had the technical knowledge, that he had a responsible vendor (Wargames Factory), and his communications are open and honest enough that I'm not too bothered. If it had been a project to deliver products that my livelihood depended on, I would get a lot more upset. As it is, it's plastic-crack that I'd take ages to get around to, so I'm a lot more passe about the whole thing.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:37:40


Post by: Albertorius


 legoburner wrote:

If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

Golly, that doesn't sound familiar AT ALL.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 14:48:52


Post by: warboss


For the scale purists in the thread, is the below pic unacceptable to you? The 25-30ft tall mecha are upscaled 20%, the 15-25ft tall mecha are 30%, and the 15ft and below are 40% bigger. As long as the relative sizes are still visible at a glance, I'd perfectly fine with a sliding scale shift like that personally. Would Invid scouts, human infantry, and cyclones (the main two models below 15ft) would still need to be multibased on 40mm bases but I think that works out fine both thematically and mechanically.



edit: removed the previous non-combined scale pic


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:09:14


Post by: Lynx7725


 warboss wrote:
For the scale purists in the thread, is the below pic unacceptable to you? The 25-30ft tall mecha are upscaled 20%, the 15-25ft tall mecha are 30%, and the 15ft and below are 40% bigger. As long as the relative sizes are still visible at a glance, I'd perfectly fine with a sliding scale shift like that personally. Would Invid scouts, human infantry, and cyclones (the main two models below 15ft) would still need to be multibased on 40mm bases but I think that works out fine both thematically and mechanically.

It may well work, mini-wise.

Thing is though, what hasn't been really discussed is the game itself. Now, I backed the KS with the intent to use the Destroids for CBT, so I've already got what I want, but I do see the game itself isn't too terribad.

Thing is, the game as it is, is based around the platoon as a basic unit, and as such is nominally a company-level engagement. That works out ok for the Macross portion, and largely for Southern Cross it's going to still work out (since you're not likely to deploy human infantry against Masters mecha), even if the Southern Cross mecha are going to look a bit small (if we stick with strict 6mm).

The problem is Invid, specifically, Cyclone riders. How are they going to work? If we stick with a full military workout, then you deploy Cyclones by the platoon, and we're not talking about one or two or even four riders, we're talking about dozens in a full platoon.. probably, at 6mm, 3 or 4 per base for aesthetic purposes or even 5 or 6. They don't need to design and mold individual Cyclone riders. Or Invid Enforcers. Even Invid scouts could be two to a base, single piece models, just have enough variations.

I find the whole 6mm vs. 15mm thing is because PB seemed to have been stuck on a thought train that says "YOU MUST HAVE EACH MINIATURE PERFECT". Heck that's not necessarily the case, in a sense your game system will drive the conversation at this scale. Are you aiming for a large sweeping scale of combat (epic/ regimental to company) or skirmish scale? You generally can't have both in the same game, guerrilla fighting as represented by the Invid Invasion story arc isn't what company-level combat is about. But Invid-Zentraedi war is, and that's great and perfectly fine with 6mm sculpts.

I say, just split the line. Concentrate on doing 6mm well because you got an opening with fans now. Do the company-level game properly, don't get distracted by the 6mm/15mm split. Then do a second, skirmish scale where you can get more detailed Cyclones, bigger Invid, to represent guerrilla warfare.. once PB actually figured out what wargaming is.

Of course, given what PB is, they'd almost certainly go the other direction just to prove me wrong.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:11:23


Post by: solkan


Does it make me a dirty anime separatist if I'd rather see the Macross, Southern Cross, and Mosspedia models all done in different scales without any regard to this silly "Robotech" nonsense?



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:23:00


Post by: Albertorius


 solkan wrote:
Does it make me a dirty anime separatist if I'd rather see the Macross, Southern Cross, and Mosspedia models all done in different scales without any regard to this silly "Robotech" nonsense?

Being a dirty anime separatist myself, and not caring at all about anything Robotech other than Macross, I would personally not care one iota... but the people who actually like Robotech and want to play with everything at the same time might.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:25:32


Post by: Talizvar


 warboss wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
I haven't really been paying too much attention to the RPG scene for...a long time now, but is Palladium really a 'force' in RPGs, and has been for 30+ years?
They were one of the top selling RPG companies in the 1990's at the height of their popularity but it has been downhill since then mainly because they refuse to change. The ex-employee behind the scenes post I linked above with my modern parody already lists flagging sales in 2003 and they certainly haven't gotten better since from my fan/ex-fan outsider's view looking in.
Spoiler:
I attended gencon during both periods for over 10 years straight and played palladium games during that time and definitely noticed a distinct drop in GM'ed games from 1994 to 2006 to the point where one year there was only one or two palladium games total in the prereg book whereas in the 90's there were dozens. I can't comment on more recent gencon #s though as I haven't gone in that time; they started pushing their reps very hard to run gencon games right after the KS funded so I'd expect that to have gone up (regardless of the popularity) as they made it a big priority as opposed to previously when the running of the games was largely up to individual GM's with little to no palladium input. I did a quick google search and it appears the only data I know of (the ICV2 rankings as well as the White Wolf magazine rankings I didn't know about) seem to confirm my own (admittedly biased) observations.

1990's: "rising star", "slowly overtaking FASA as the #3 RPG producer"

http://www.rpg.net/columns/designers-and-dragons/designers-and-dragons4.phtml

2000's: not a single listing

http://www.kirith.com/random-wizard/articles/rpg-ranking-by-year.html

Insert disclaimer about wikipedia commonly accepted fallacy here since I didn't vet the original sources of either and am just linking it. I can say for the past five or so years that I have been paying attention to the ICV2 rankings every quarter, Palladium has absolutely never shown up. The rules that were already made fun of back then still are 98% the same and the layout and art (albeit supposedly digital now for the former instead of actual hot glue cut and paste) are just as dated. Even a robotech rpg book I picked up after this kickstarter that was made in the last few years has an abrupt very noticeable change in the spacing and font midway through the book because they couldn't be damned to edit it down to fit into the page count they chose nor bothered to increase the page count by a 16 sheet and generate more material. They simply chose to resize a few chapters of text instead with a button click similar to how in the Coffin rant they couldn't be bothered to properly alphabetize lists because it was too hard to change pages once the hot glue dried.

The same rules that people made fun of in the 1990's are copy pasted into "new" games and editions including RRPGT. Back in the 1980's when clunky cobbled together rules were the norm (like D&D 2e), the Palladium system didn't stand out from the pack negatively in terms of mechanics and the story and breadth of theme shone through. Nowadays when companies build their games from the ground up to work as a cohesive unit (or license systems that have been), their insistence on using a distinctly 1980's style/theme/mechanics system stands out like a poop covered sore thumb. The FFG 40k RPGs show that you can have a retro-feeling rpg mechanics system that works cohesively in the modern era so it's not that Palladium can't have one... they simply CHOOSE not to.
They couch it in terms of not wanting to devalue player book collections but it's more that they physically lost alot of the cover art in their "crisises of treachery" as well as them being unable to redo the books given that they were literally cut and pasted with hot glue together so redoing them is not as simple as opening an old computer file and going to work. I'm a very vocal critic of GW and their recent screw you 2 year book life cycle change but even on a bad day I would wholeheartedly support a company who wants to update an RPG book after 25 YEARS!! And, yes, 20-25 year old rifts books are still completely current offerings on sale on their site with no significantly change made during that time beyond a mid 1990's typo correction or very rare errata.
I am mid-40's and can give a slight difference in perspective but largely warboss's information is well written (good "parody" too).

Palladium had one solid decade of doing "good stuff" they were a good company from 1982-1992.
Weapons and Armor (1982) was my all time favorite, it was well done and set the groundwork for the "open world" that made their system "good".
Palladium RPG (1983) Fantasy
Heroes Unlimited (1984)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1985)
After the Bomb (1986)
Robotech (1986)
Ninja's and Superspies (1988)
Beyond the Supernatural (1988)
Rifts (1990) Tied it all together with a big bow: you could play everything that came before in this world or "rift" to those worlds.

White Wolf came on the scene in 1991 with "Vampire the Masquerade" and blew them out of the water with the story teller system (Ars Magica).
They then published a new focus (Werewolf, Fey...) hit after hit (one every year to 1995) while PB rehashed old product or supplements of existing product.

d20 open license system launched in 2000 and was the next big thing in RPG for years to come.
2000's was where they got into the height of their sliding deadlines.
This was where PB fell off the radar in general (except 2006 "crisis of treachery").

They have been pretty much coasting for the last 25 years other than this KS shot in the arm.

Funny, it is BECAUSE I have some rather fond memories of their decade of good work that this KS feels like my own crisis of treachery.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:27:45


Post by: warboss


 Lynx7725 wrote:
I find the whole 6mm vs. 15mm thing is because PB seemed to have been stuck on a thought train that says "YOU MUST HAVE EACH MINIATURE PERFECT".


Part of the problem is that they're not perfect because they're they're stuck on that single minded though train. Palladium doesn't manage their goals and expectations based on reality but tries to rewrite history and bend reality to fit their permanent preconceived notions until it is too late. The veritechs have funny looking feet, most models have limited poseability, and there are seams that are definitely NOT on the source designs everywhere across the front of models because of their "mouth watering detail" quest. You see the same thing in the rules with the stupid all or nothing mechanics (dodging, antimissile, etc) as well as the stupid insistence to organizing squadrons based on real world units that make the anime impossible to emulate despite their publics claims of trying to be authentic to the source material.

I see the same thing with cyclones and small mecha in the future. As a minis gamer, I have no problem with 3 to 4 cyclones at the bumped scale above on a 40mm base (they'd be a tiny bit bigger than DZC infantry) and 2-3 invid (two on the base and one "flying" a bit higher would be perfect). That works on a minis table in conjunction with the existing minis and fits the scale of combat they're supposed to fight as. You can always make a special "hero" single cyclone model on a 20mm or 25mm base to keep with the RPG licensing rules as an option (like adding a VF-1S to a valk squadron).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 solkan wrote:
Does it make me a dirty anime separatist if I'd rather see the Macross, Southern Cross, and Mosspedia models all done in different scales without any regard to this silly "Robotech" nonsense?



Yes. You're the guy with the pony tail.




YOU PROBABLY HAVEN'T EVEN WATCHED GUNDAM!!!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:42:52


Post by: Talizvar


Warboss: you bringing this scale issue back again?
The threat is awfully high you will catch heck.
I finally found the "scale" page I found way back when:
http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/zentradiheight.html
What is truly funny is your suggested "fudging" with scale is what was often done within the source material.
Since I am largely focused on the "Macross" era of Robotech I selfishly do not care about the scale change as long as they finish this era at 6mm.
<edit> Ummm also there is this little Battletech thing that these models happen to fit into... except the disappointing "Marauder"(Glaug).


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:46:46


Post by: Cyporiean


Dirty anime separatist as well, don't care about anything other than the Macross stuff.

And honestly don't care about anything other than getting my Wave 2 items so I can attempt to sell them off.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:51:17


Post by: warboss


 Talizvar wrote:
Warboss: you bringing this scale issue back again?
The threat is awfully high you will catch heck.
I finally found the "scale" page I found way back when:
http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/zentradiheight.html
What is truly funny is your suggested "fudging" with scale is what was often done within the source material.
Since I am largely focused on the "Macross" era of Robotech I selfishly do not care about the scale change as long as they finish this era at 6mm.


Yes, Forar tried warning me not to mess with the scale ("Give me 1mm or give me death!" was the threat he reportedly received when suggesting 10mm terrain was ok) but I'm too stubborn. I suspect this is my last gasp of caring. Macross for me is by far the most important era also but I'd like to at least have the possibility of playing with other eras if I ever assemble any minis without it looking like I cobbled together gashapon and 1980's kits from a dozen different sources.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Talizvar wrote:

<edit> Ummm also there is this little Battletech thing that these models happen to fit into... except the disappointing "Marauder"(Glaug).


While I didn't explicitly state it in the picture, with my idea for a sliding scale the macross stuff would stay locked at 6mm. It's already 1/3 out and messing without that would be stupid (so..um.. like a 50/50 chance). 6mm also meshes with battletech (minus the glaug but Btech screwed that up, not robotech!) and changing that would alienate even more consumers. The southern cross and mospeada stuff is what is smaller and can be bumped up in size for ease of assembly (ha! we know that is a priority!) and painting.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 15:57:54


Post by: Krinsath


 Lynx7725 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Krinsath wrote:

While not as authoritative as lego, I would point out that DreamForge had sculpts I'd characterize as much more complex than RTT sorted out in 2 years give or take. That looks to be about the timeframe that KD:M took as well from the same manufacturer. I'm not sure there's more complexity around in the world of HIPS than those two lines at the moment, though obviously they're dealing with a factory that is quite capable if not quite speedy. So my mildly under-informed opinion would be that given competent communication, 2 years can sort out most of the issues in even the most horrendously complicated kits.

I backed Dreamforge too and received my stuff. There's quite a bit of difference in this case.

Dreamforge went in with quite a bit of experience with 3D modeling for HIPS production, and the guy already spent a considerable amount of his own time coming up with models that he knows can work with HIPS production methodologies. In essence, the guy knew the tech risks and knew his way around the shop, so the risks are significantly lesser in the second KS he did.

Dreamforge hooked up with Wargames Factory, so they had a very experienced production team whose main focus was to do plastic model production. While Wargames Factory's internal miniature design team isn't that good (their plastic kits are ok, but not great), their technological team is very, very good, I'd rate them just a hair below GW's in-house team, and better overall because they had to deal with different customers with differing technology base. So the technology risk there is further reduced because of the experience of the manufacturer.

Dreamforge also had a good grounding in project planning, and he communicated well with his backers, showing them the schedule breakdown (which I didn't bother too hard with), and was able to clearly explain why there are delays. His constant and clear business communications to the backers was reassuring and in the end, sure there are grumblings but the goods delivered.

So it's not 2 years to deliver the product -- it's 2 years (or whatever length it really was) to get plastic out to me, but only made possible by a lot of experience on both sides of the design, development and implementation team.

EDIT: Oh, and it helped a lot that the guy's primary focus for the entire time is to get the project off the table. I think communications between Dreamforge and Wargames Factory was smooth even with the timezone difference because the Dreamforge side had nothing else business-wise that had higher priority. In RRT's case? SNORT.


Sorry to rewind the convo away from the scale, but I did want to point out that even with the knowledge there was a great deal of conversion work and compromise being done. Mark posted pictures of what went on in the process, and how things that seemed like they would work ended up being a pain. However, that and similar issues with KD:M (because I don't think PB is fibbing when they say that these are things that just happen) the key was to communicate and figure out what the options were and which option best combined the vision with reality. I liked Mark's characterization that it is much more negotiation than anything else when it comes to cutting the tool.

Of course, with the company involved here, anything dependent on clear and consistent communication is going to hit a snag or <insert hypothetical math concept here>. I think that was what warboss was getting at, that in 2 years time they should have been able to get all of this out the door, as the lower level of experience would be offset by the lower complexity of the designs. As a question to folks that have all the stuff from Wave 1, how many sprues/tools were made? I'm fairly sure KD:M had a monstrous (/rimshot) tool count, and DFG was similarly insane.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:07:10


Post by: warboss


 Talizvar wrote:
I am mid-40's and can give a slight difference in perspective but largely warboss's information is well written (good "parody" too).

Palladium had one solid decade of doing "good stuff" they were a good company from 1982-1992.
Weapons and Armor (1982) was my all time favorite, it was well done and set the groundwork for the "open world" that made their system "good".
Palladium RPG (1983) Fantasy
Heroes Unlimited (1984)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1985)
After the Bomb (1986)
Robotech (1986)
Ninja's and Superspies (1988)
Beyond the Supernatural (1988)
Rifts (1990) Tied it all together with a big bow: you could play everything that came before in this world or "rift" to those worlds.

White Wolf came on the scene in 1991 with "Vampire the Masquerade" and blew them out of the water with the story teller system (Ars Magica).
They then published a new focus (Werewolf, Fey...) hit after hit (one every year to 1995) while PB rehashed old product or supplements of existing product.

d20 open license system launched in 2000 and was the next big thing in RPG for years to come.
2000's was where they got into the height of their sliding deadlines.
This was where PB fell off the radar in general (except 2006 "crisis of treachery").

They have been pretty much coasting for the last 25 years other than this KS shot in the arm.

Funny, it is BECAUSE I have some rather fond memories of their decade of good work that this KS feels like my own crisis of treachery.


Thanks! For me, I got into their games (and gaming overall... they were my first!) in 1990 so Robotech was already an established line and Rifts had only a few titles and refined that even more. I liked the goofiness of Heroes Unlimited (at least the "updated" revised version) and bought some of those along with TMNT as a fan of the cartoon. They kept the Rifts popularity going through the 1990's until it started to show its age (at it's core, it is an early 1980's mechanic updated in the late 1980's to MDC). At that point, newer cohesive systems like Heavy Gear and even later more refined Shadowrun editions (like 2nd and on) introduced me to rules systems that didn't feel like they were a mummy made up of a sickly person wrapped up in band aids to make them feel better. I can't comment on the white wolf stuff as I never played it (I found larping to be oddly intimidating as a shy nerd). Once 3rd edition D&D hit along with the OGL glut, it was pretty much the end as you said. Even with it's own latter bloat, I found the d20 system to be far superior to anything palladium came out with and my purchase dollars quickly shifted from buying every rifts book to every core 3/3.5 D&D and Forgotten Realms book instead. During the next decade, I bought only 3-4 books of theirs and even those were mostly revamps of ones I already owned (like Robotech manga stupid sized edition and the RUE core book). When the KS funded, I splurged and got one christmas gift bag of pure robotech stuff. Each time, I was severely disappointed to see the same ol' same ol' 10-15 years after my regular purchases stopped.

edit: Hey, look at that! You can recount a decades long history of Palladium and Robotech and not have it take half of a 19 page post! Imagine that!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:13:37


Post by: Easy E


Even though I have a lot of Wave 1 stuff I'm very glad I avoided the KS and just waited for everything to hit retail. It saved myself a lot of pain and agony.

My thoughts on KS at this point: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I.E. I don't care what Kickstarter is saying, it ain't real until it is on a shelf at my FLGS.

This update..... #Waste ofTime


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:18:11


Post by: Forar


Two other aspects to keep in mind with The Great Scale Misdirection (err, Debate) are;

A) Line of Sight. Since the game uses a 'real' (ugh) line of sight, imagine trying to sort out LOS for something that's eyes/sensors are 7mm above table level (hell, the base alone shoves that upwards significantly).

B) Multiple minis to a base; tied into A, even if they go with 30mm bases, if they're spread out significantly, then taller things firing down may be able to 'see' one or two on a base even though most of the squad is 'hugging a wall' as it were. And don't anyone dare have a base set with a 'breaching around a corner formation' in a line against an edge, you 'modeling for advantage monster'!

Shooting down probably won't be too hard, but even the 'use an iphone trick' is going to run into issues when the camera lens is bigger than most of the model, at least for some of the smaller units.

If you scale them up for aesthetics, they're now also larger, thus easier to see/attack.

And I say this as someone who still thinks scaling them up wouldn't be a bad idea (heretical as it is, I'm okay with the occasional crime against gaming/humanity).

With the "hiding behind a streetlight" aspect, things that small could feasibly have a massive advantage, and scaling them up removes some of that (for better or worse).

But I'm sure that's been extensively pondered and tested in the months it took them to bring the matter up to us. >.>


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:24:54


Post by: Manchu


IMO, the models are very cool and the game is fun. I am still not sorry for backing this KS, despite being very critical of how PB has dealt with backers. In all honesty, I think this project is not nearly as bad as we some times make out. The problem is that PB generally and especially Kevin are so insufferably bad at dealing with people that it is all too easy to focus on the terrible to the exclusion of the good.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:34:30


Post by: Forar


It certainly doesn't help things.

With good communications/PR, I think a lot of the larger issues could be curtailed or avoided entirely.

Like, Spartangate likely wouldn't have been remotely as big a thing if they'd said "Thank you for the feedback, you've provided a lot of things to bring up with our artists/modelers/the factory, and will get back to you in a week with our findings".

Doubling down with "'his is how it MUST be. Period. Mic Drop' was, at least from my recollection, where things started going downhill rapidly.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:36:15


Post by: Nomeny


 Albertorius wrote:
 legoburner wrote:

If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

Golly, that doesn't sound familiar AT ALL.

I don't get the reference. What do you mean?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:36:24


Post by: warboss


 Manchu wrote:
IMO, the models are very cool and the game is fun. I am still not sorry for backing this KS, despite being very critical of how PB has dealt with backers. In all honesty, I think this project is not nearly as bad as we some times make out. The problem is that PB generally and especially Kevin are so insufferably bad at dealing with people that it is all too easy to focus on the terrible to the exclusion of the good.


To each his own. The experience of dealing with them has magnified the issues I have with the physical products in all likelihood (if I try to look at them as objectively as possible, I'd give the minis a C- and the rules probably a B- with some caveats that I haven't actually used either). I personally would have preferred saving a couple hundred bucks (between my basic pledge, a couple of add ons, a few gencon minis, and the xmas grab bag) and probably a thousand frustrated posts on dakka over the past two years.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:40:06


Post by: Sinful Hero


Nomeny wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 legoburner wrote:

If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

Golly, that doesn't sound familiar AT ALL.

I don't get the reference. What do you mean?

Referring to RRT's models with odd splits and high part counts.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:41:50


Post by: Lynx7725


 Manchu wrote:
IMO, the models are very cool and the game is fun. I am still not sorry for backing this KS, despite being very critical of how PB has dealt with backers. In all honesty, I think this project is not nearly as bad as we some times make out. The problem is that PB generally and especially Kevin are so insufferably bad at dealing with people that it is all too easy to focus on the terrible to the exclusion of the good.

Oh hell no. It at least delivered something. And in 2 years! I had a KS product that took the better part of 5 years when I started tracking the product (pre-KS), through its vapourware era (pre-KS), backed the KS, to it's KS silence, to final product delivery. The final product wasn't too bad. The lawsuits threatening part I could do without.

Not to talk about the KS that simply did not deliver. At least this one, there's physical product in hand, and there's a sort of commitment from PB to deliver the rest. SC and Invid are a pipe dream at the moment, and I deal in realities.

For the dirty anime separatists.. the consideration is that SC and Invid aren't going to happen without Macross succeeding. Despite that the original series are fairly good on their own, the sad fact is that even Japan had cease to produce kits for them, while Shoji is still cranking out the Valks for Macross. There is a dearth of Southern Cross and Mosepeda products not for years but for decades -- and we are talking about from the nation that originally produced the series, and that is known to remechandize successful anime whenever they can. Future not so bright there.

The likelihood of any product for SC and Invid coming out from this RRT product line will thus be attendant to the success or failure of RRT to generate enough revenue stream for PB to get to SC or Invid. As much as Kevin might want to do the other two era (or even Shadow Chronicles), he still has to care for two things: the bottom line, and how much he can pitch to HG. If Macross RRT doesn't swing, the odds of stuff coming out for SC and Invid similarly slides down the drain.

Sorting out the scale problem, IF Kevin is willing to take inputs, will help to put the possibility of SC and Invid on the table. I like the bugs enough to try to make it work.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:43:30


Post by: Manchu


 Forar wrote:
With good communications/PR, I think a lot of the larger issues could be curtailed or avoided entirely.
I reckon we'd be in the same boat delay-wise ... but it is easier to take bad news from someone who is being transparent and responsive. Interestingly, it seems Kevin really believes he is being transparent and responsive with this latest update when in reality he continues to blame ND for his own lack of business acumen, asks for more backer dollars as if he's doing us a favor, and shifts the conversation to glories past and pie in the sky speculation about further Robotech development without doing a thing to fulfill his current obligations.
 warboss wrote:
I personally would have preferred saving ... a thousand frustrated posts on dakka over the past two years.
Can't really blame that on PB ...
 Lynx7725 wrote:
At least this one, there's physical product in hand, and there's a sort of commitment from PB to deliver the rest. SC and Invid are a pipe dream at the moment, and I deal in realities.
Having suffered through outright fraud with KS, I fully agree with your sentiments here. I think we can be certain that Kevin honestly intends to see this through, if for no other reason than because he himself is such a fan. I also agree that Southern Cross and New Generation is currently a non-issue; one more reason why this "re-started" "conversation" (those words both merit separate quotation marks, I think) is so frustrating ... so much of the message devoted to something that is way off in the future and basically nothing about Wave 2. It's a really disconcerting example of how things seem to be done at PB ...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:50:45


Post by: Lynx7725


warboss wrote:I see the same thing with cyclones and small mecha in the future. As a minis gamer, I have no problem with 3 to 4 cyclones at the bumped scale above on a 40mm base (they'd be a tiny bit bigger than DZC infantry) and 2-3 invid (two on the base and one "flying" a bit higher would be perfect). That works on a minis table in conjunction with the existing minis and fits the scale of combat they're supposed to fight as. You can always make a special "hero" single cyclone model on a 20mm or 25mm base to keep with the RPG licensing rules as an option (like adding a VF-1S to a valk squadron).

I do FoW, so no problems with platoons of cyclones on a base. DZC is a good comparison since they are actually more 6mm; their infantry are actually a bit oversized IIRC but I'm not that picky.

And yes, you can do the non-default Cyclones as "chara" bust-type models, that can be set as a marker to indicate upgrades. All these we have seen in one form or another in wargaming, and I feel it's this lack of perspective that PB is suffering from.


Forar wrote:Two other aspects to keep in mind with The Great Scale Misdirection (err, Debate) are;

A) Line of Sight. Since the game uses a 'real' (ugh) line of sight, imagine trying to sort out LOS for something that's eyes/sensors are 7mm above table level (hell, the base alone shoves that upwards significantly).

B) Multiple minis to a base; tied into A, even if they go with 30mm bases, if they're spread out significantly, then taller things firing down may be able to 'see' one or two on a base even though most of the squad is 'hugging a wall' as it were. And don't anyone dare have a base set with a 'breaching around a corner formation' in a line against an edge, you 'modeling for advantage monster'!
(....)
But I'm sure that's been extensively pondered and tested in the months it took them to bring the matter up to us. >.>


That's part of what irks me. They can't seem to get the level of play correct. If they want to go FoW style, company-level combat, then some level of granularity have to be sacrificed. If they want skirmish scale, they got the wrong scale now for it -- or at least the wrong monetization model set up. Rules doesn't match purpose, it's a hodgepodge held together by some slick looking art work. The whole system works, but squeaks just enough to make people notice the mismatch -- and add in the slow realisation that this company may have zero idea of what they are trying to achieve... basically, the minis become the solution looking for a problem, and that's a squeaky wheel.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:52:06


Post by: warboss


 Manchu wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I personally would have preferred saving ... a thousand frustrated posts on dakka over the past two years.
Can't really blame that on PB ...


I can when they're the primary reason for that frustration.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 16:54:30


Post by: Manchu


Pretending that these three separate series, which each conceive of a completely different scale of action, are really one thing for the sake of writing a miniatures game will inevitably lead to problems (of which physical scale is just the most superficial). Personally, I don't think it's really justifiable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 warboss wrote:
I can when they're the primary reason for that frustration.
I don't get what you mean here. You wish you had posted on Dakka less? Or about RRT less? Or that you could have been posting in frustration about some other topic? Or that you could have posted more positive remarks over these past two years? I mean, all of this is solely within your discretion, regardless of how you feel about RRT or PB. Now, I can understand wishing PB had run a better KS, produced better minis, and written a game that you find more fun. But I don't get how you can blame PB for your Dakka posting habits.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:02:32


Post by: warboss


My meaning should be obvious. Palladium gave me almost exclusively frustrating and negative things to discuss regarding the first kickstarter that I ever participated in about an IP that I was very interested in. If I'm going to discuss this kickstarter, I'll discuss the current topics at hand regarding this kickstarter which were unfortunately not postivie. They didn't force me to post negative things about robotech but rather gave me nothing else most of the time to discuss except for their latest mistake.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:09:19


Post by: Nomeny


 Sinful Hero wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 legoburner wrote:

If the plastics company is not using current, cutting edge software for this, then all sorts of issues can come into being and all manner of horrible conversions and splits are needed. If the plastics company is more used to engineering projects than miniature projects, then that can also lead to the requirement for converting and resculpting.

Golly, that doesn't sound familiar AT ALL.

I don't get the reference. What do you mean?

Referring to RRT's models with odd splits and high part counts.

Oh, I had thought he was referring to some other notable case of development hell.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:17:12


Post by: Manchu


 warboss wrote:
gave me nothing else most of the time to discuss except for their latest mistake
I (eventually) got miniatures which I duly assembled and a game which I played and enjoyed, both in terms of playing and discussing. As you say, YMMV. It stands to reason that one can negatively influence oneself in these matters, which is the point I was initially making. PB won't change. FFS, here's Kevin's idea of a re-start: spend 19 pages tooting his own horn, blaming everyone else, change the subject, and of course not talking about what he currently morally, ethically, and legally, owes at least 5,342 customers. It's a blackhole man. Only you can resist getting sucked in!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:25:35


Post by: Forar


 Manchu wrote:
Kevin's idea of a re-start: spend 19 pages tooting his own horn


Yeah, even compared to the usual self-aggrandizement found in their weekly newsletters, this one kind of went over the top.

It got uncomfortable at a few points. Declaring PB the champions of Japanimation/Anime was probably the first point I unironically rolled my eyes at the screen, though between throwing ND under the bus and declarations of *just loving Robotech sooooo much*, it went some strange places.

And everywhere but where we wanted it.

Alt response: "So that's what the kids are calling it these days..."


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:30:54


Post by: warboss


 Manchu wrote:
It's a blackhole man. Only you can resist getting sucked in!


That Robotech thing, I just couldn't give it up. It just gets in your blood or something I don't know. Sadly, my will for Robotech is about as strong as a Palladium initial release date is firm. :(


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:40:59


Post by: Manchu


 Forar wrote:
"So that's what the kids are calling it these days..."
It replaced the more colorful cliche I originally typed.
 warboss wrote:
I can't resist robotechnology of that magnitude.
Are you going to Pre-Order® the Convention™ Exclusives©?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:45:57


Post by: warboss


Hell no. Same for the generic vehicles and proto-invid. The UEDF marines book piqued my interest long ago and the supposed pinky swear we mean it this time not like the last 5 years release date of next month rekindled it a bit... until I looked into my New Gen book from my grab bag two years ago and rediscovered the crappy art in their recent offerings. They had a good robot artist for the two books (Apollo something or other) but it looks like the quality of that too has suffered since with the obvious exception being RRPGT.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 17:51:40


Post by: Manchu


Hi everyone, Wayne here.

Following the big, two-part update from this past weekend, there has been a lot of discussion online about the scale of later generations of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We think that’s great, and I just wanted to post here to make sure that’s clear: We were not saying that we’re definitely going to go to 15mm, just that we feel we need to talk about it. We want to know what you all think about it, and we’re asking you to really give it some thought.



Here’s an example of what we’re talking about. Those are some 6mm scale Cyclones that backer Bad_Syntax had made, next to a Spartan and a Regult. As you can see, they’re tiny.



Here they are next to a 15mm version he also had made. Now obviously, both of these are just simple 3D prints, and both would have sharper details in the final, manufactured product, but there’s so much more that could be done with the larger figure. Not just sharper detail but also posability, weapon options and other subtle variations that might be lost at a smaller scale.
Of course, we’re also well aware that there are arguments to be made for sticking with 6mm. Besides the satisfaction of having everything in scale with each other, there is also terrain to consider, and a number of other things.

It’s possible that, in the end, we’ll do both – assuming there is sufficient demand to do so. We’ll be researching the feasibility of doing just that. But it’s also possible that this discussion will make it clear we should go one way or the other, or something else altogether that we haven’t considered.

My point is, we want to have that discussion. There’s no reason to be outraged that we’re going to change the scale, because we’re not... unless the community says that’s what we should do. We just want you guys to really think about it before making that decision.

So please, think about. Talk about it. Mull it over for awhile. In a week or so, we’ll post an official poll and ask people to vote on it. We don’t want to do that yet, because we really don’t want unconsidered, snap judgments on this. It’s too important for that. This is a decision that will shape this game line for years to come, and shouldn’t be made lightly.

Thanks, guys. I’ll be posting more about this and other things (most important being Wave 2 of course) soon.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:01:53


Post by: warboss


Just like with the gencon vote, *poof* it's now up for debate. If you don't vote, though, your vote will be counted towards the preordained 15mm decision just like last time. (Manchu... it's really hard to not do it!)

In any case, even when they try they miss the forest for the trees. It's a quick mspaint resize so it may be off by a mm or so but here are both 6mm and 15mm in the same pic with the macross minis. Unfortunately for me, the issue is more that the alphas will be noticeably bigger than the VF-1's and the betas will be zentraedi scale from some quick napkin match. That to me is the bigger issue and why I suggested the sliding scale.



edit: removed the previous non-combined pic


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:09:22


Post by: Lynx7725



Was literally in the toilet when this came through.

Thoughts: Hey those 6mm Cyclones look correct.

2nd Thoughts: If you want me to suspend my disbelief at those 15mm Cyclones against a Battlepod, that's some mighty suspension.

A few more stray things:

What exactly is PB's concept of a miniature, a wargame, and a miniature tabletop wargame?

1. A miniature is not always a scale model. Scale modelers do laugh at us wargamers, and for a good reason; our stuff isn't -- and isn't supposed to -- be at their level of details. If PB wants great level of details, get Bandai or Tamiya involved. Else, you accept that sometimes good enough really is good enough.

2. A wargame can be a table with a mapboard and markers. Like Risk. Or CBT (better looking minis). Or a full blown miniature wargame. Is the miniatures you are producing meant to act like markers on a traditional board wargame, or a miniature in a minature tabletop game?

I suspect their concept of what *is* a tabletop wargame is a wee bit off. One of the things I swore at my Destroids was that the difference between a PRC factory worker assembling it as a marker for a board game vs myself is that he get paid to do that.

Back to the point. As a wargamer, those 6mm Cyclones look good for the job. Especially if we want to mix it up, Invid vs. Zent with a side-dish of Earthlings in-between. Just the mental image of a swarm of 6mm Invid Scouts vs. basic armour Zents is interesting.

The 15mm looks good as a marque, but really if you want to do it that way you might as well go 28mm. You go 15mm you limit your options and your details. Go 28mm as a RPG supplement to get around the licensing issue, but REALLY knock it out of the park with the details so that people want to use it in their RPG sessions.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:12:19


Post by: sqir666


The last line of that update stings the most to me.


I'm also of the opinion that this discussion of scale change shouldn't be happening until after wave 2 is complete.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:13:45


Post by: Manchu


sqir666 wrote:
I'm also of the opinion that this discussion of scale change shouldn't be happening until after wave 2 is complete.
Yes, every post about scale is a victory for the terrorists.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:18:42


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Will the switch to 15mm kill the game completely, or will it 'only' kill the 6mm version?


PB can't afford to redo the 6mm stuff in 15mm. We are looking at 2 very different scales, that simply should not play on the board together.


Maybe we can use some forced-perspective techniques to trick the eye? It will be like putting on a British theatrical production with Mecha.

Do you hear the mecha shoot?
It is a sound of angry guns.
It is a music of a tech
that lays down the megatons.

When the pounding of the cannon
echos Minmei's backup drums
there is a life about the end
when the volley comes.

You see a problem. I see an excuse.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:22:56


Post by: warboss


 Manchu wrote:
sqir666 wrote:
I'm also of the opinion that this discussion of scale change shouldn't be happening until after wave 2 is complete.
Yes, every post about scale is a victory for the terrorists.


Don't bring the missing malcontents faction into this!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:25:02


Post by: Albertorius


I... actually like how they look at 6mm, TBH.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:30:10


Post by: Lynx7725


 Albertorius wrote:
I... actually like how they look at 6mm, TBH.

Yeah, so imagine them a wee bit better detailed, more action pose, a few of them leaping up on those weird support they like, and probably 6 to a single base. The joy of 6mm work is not in the individual unit, but the whole cohesive army.. I don't think PB gets that.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:30:38


Post by: warboss


When I get back to my desk I'll convert the 15mm down to match what I posted earlier (40% bigger or roughly 8-9mm) and multi based.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lynx7725 wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
I... actually like how they look at 6mm, TBH.

Yeah, so imagine them a wee bit better detailed, more action pose, a few of them leaping up on those weird support they like, and probably 6 to a single base. The joy of 6mm work is not in the individual unit, but the whole cohesive army.. I don't think PB gets that.


Those were 3d printered on shapeways iirc so lower detail than plastic would be by a little. They're not particularly well painted either which doesnt help.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:41:31


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Lot of stuff going on here.

1. Wave 1 thoughts
I assembled my portion of the split roughly 3 months ago:
Spoiler:

I believe the minis look good for what we paid, and the effort is basically worth it. I haven't played RRT, and didn't intend to - I just wanted minis. If my friends build their stuff, I'll slap some paint on and give things a go.

As others not, PB delivered something, which is way better than receiving nothing.

2. Wave 2 thoughts
If PB is delivering everything, by hook or by crook, that's great. If it's by end of year, even better.

I just want my Monster, with matching scale and matching level of detail. I do NOT particularly care how many pieces it takes, because I am only building one of them, and it is still regular HIPS plastic - stuff that I can work with relatively easily. The MAC-II Monster is a showcase model, and I am prepared to do a 4+ hour build if that's what it takes. I would not be surprised to see people superdetail the MAC-II to IPMS competition level. In that context, if PB can get the part count down, that's fine, but not at the expense of any detail larger than a grain of rice.

3. 15mm vs 6mm Scale?
I am not much interested in post-Macross "Robotech", I almost don't care. If they do want to combine things (I can't see this as a good idea), then going from 6mm scale to 15mm is too big of a scale jump; Cyclones and Invid Scouts at 8mm scale (+35%) would be fine, and they should still be multi-based. If PB is dead set on 15mm, they should do it as a different game that doesn't unify with Macross-era stuff. I'm pretty sure PB has no clue what the implications are, so the likely result is that PB will fold 15mm Cyclones in with 6mm Valks and then wonder why nobody outside the echo chamber likes it.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 18:45:15


Post by: Albertorius


 warboss wrote:
When I get back to my desk I'll convert the 15mm down to match what I posted earlier (40% bigger or roughly 8-9mm) and multi based.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lynx7725 wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
I... actually like how they look at 6mm, TBH.

Yeah, so imagine them a wee bit better detailed, more action pose, a few of them leaping up on those weird support they like, and probably 6 to a single base. The joy of 6mm work is not in the individual unit, but the whole cohesive army.. I don't think PB gets that.


Those were 3d printered on shapeways iirc so lower detail than plastic would be by a little. They're not particularly well painted either which doesnt help.


Heh. I remember hand painting winged swords on the shoulders of my Epic Dark Angels SMs.

for the size even that detail would be enough... they just need better posing. They could afford to do a small spur with as many as 30 different poses if they went for one piece minis...

Or just go resin\metal, for reduced costs.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 19:33:38


Post by: warboss


 Albertorius wrote:

Heh. I remember hand painting winged swords on the shoulders of my Epic Dark Angels SMs.

for the size even that detail would be enough... they just need better posing. They could afford to do a small spur with as many as 30 different poses if they went for one piece minis...

Or just go resin\metal, for reduced costs.


Wow... you're a dedicated painter! Here is a scale pic of the non-macross stuff increased 250% to 15mm. This assumes that the relative scales in the original source image are correct which I haven't checked exactly but when you're jumping from 6mm to 250mm the difference is so huge (pun intended) that it doesn't matter as much.

I now present the perils (if you care about playing eras against/with each other ala sentinels) of 15mm rescaling including Alphas that tower over Zentraedi and Hovertanks that look down on VF-1 battloids. :(



edit: removed previous non-combined pic


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:01:47


Post by: Kalamadea


But that just emphasises how completely necessary the scale change is. Without going to 15mm then the other eras are going to be REALLY tiny for no other reason than to match macross with battletech players. Macross is just too large for the other eras to stay at 6mm

Honestly, I wish macross had been 1/200 and the other eras going forward were 1/72, there's already so many kits that have existed for decades now that could be licensed for gaming and palladium just had to fill in the gaps in the line


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:09:11


Post by: warboss


 Kalamadea wrote:
But that just emphasises how completely necessary the scale change is. Without going to 15mm then the other eras are going to be REALLY tiny for no other reason than to match macross with battletech players. Macross is just too large for the other eras to stay at 6mm


I disagree. What it shows is that there should be a sliding scale and not a blanket one size fits all rescale of everything post macross. The cyclones need to be significantly bigger so bump them up to 10mm (see the pic below). The other mecha largely look too big (other than the Invid scout) so you bump them up half way to 8.5mm instead. The alphas, bioroids, and hovertanks are STILL smaller than the macross stuff but they're also not visually jarringly smaller (more like a space marine to a terminator and not a terminator to a halfling) YMMV.

Mods, I'll be replacing the previous pic with this combined one so as not to give Kid Kyoto a spam spasm when he sees so much robotech in one day. It'll take me a bit to delete the previous pic attachments though with a link to this one. I'm obviously biased but I think the sliding scale one works the best although I'd probably say after seeing the cyclones that they get a bump up to 10mm instead. That feels like the goldilocks solution for me. The 10mm is acceptable but not preferrable whereas bumping everything up to 15mm is the absolute worst choice IMO. YMMV.



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:12:50


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I think some of you guys are overestimating how many people will care (in a negative fashion) about a scale change. The many angry posters who hated X-Wing and Armada for their scale errors have not made much of a dent in FFG's sales. ST Attack Wing is presumably doing fine despite scale issues much, much greater than 6mm vs 15mm. Sure, I get that you wouldn't want to mix the two scales on the same table, but would you want them on the same table even if they were in scale? Would you enjoy seeing a Lilliputian force of flat bases with teeny bumps on them lined up against minis that actually look like mecha across the table?

The scale is probably going to be more of an issue for the people who already think the 1st wave is fiddly, as well as the people who want detail they can see without hawk eyes, and people who want to display their minis. Anyone who would quit the game over the scale jump will probably quit anyway when they see the gnerls and Lancers.


I also don't see how multibasing will capture the flavor of a show where heroes often fight alone, or in loose bands rather than orderly squadrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warboss, those 10mm Cyclones look tiny. My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:39:55


Post by: warboss


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think some of you guys are overestimating how many people will care (in a negative fashion) about a scale change. The many angry posters who hated X-Wing and Armada for their scale errors have not made much of a dent in FFG's sales. ST Attack Wing is presumably doing fine despite scale issues much, much greater than 6mm vs 15mm.


That is probably because the scale changes weren't as drastic visually even if the numbers were actually worse. If the Rebel frigate suddenly became BIGGER visually than an ISD like the what will happen with the SC/NG mecha dwarfing the Macross stuff, I'd bet that there would be a similar reaction. That kind of stuff did happen with the WOTC star wars prepainted minis and people hated it. That's why I proposed a sliding scale so that the small stuff still gets bumped but everything isnt bumped up to a ridiculous IMO 250% increase.


Warboss, those 10mm Cyclones look tiny. My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.


I'm guessing you don't play other games then at that type of battle scale like DZC, Heavy Gear, Epic, and such. It's a preference and you have your reasons but palladium chose to market this as a mass battle game (going so far as to completely gut their previously released skirmish variant rules) and at mass battle game scale involving giant stompy robots (which all the eras have), you're absolutely should have noticeably smaller human sized stuff. If they had simply just said from the get go, "hey, you know what, we're making macross at 6mm but the other stuff will be 28mm skirmish scale and not compatible to better mesh with the rpg for that era".. I'd have been fine with it. Riptide sized hovertanks and Wraithknight veritechs with terminator sized cyclones would have interested me. I'm not really fine with them trying to have their cake (tons of figure sales!) and eat it too (but we need to invalidate all the previous stuff we said to get the mouthwatering detail this time!). YMMV. They sold me a game that would be compatible with the other eras. If they change the scale to 15mm, that is yet another promise that they voluntarily are choosing to break.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:45:28


Post by: Forar


Bob... bob no, bob they'll cut you.

:-P

Warboss, your comparative diagram is selling me on either 10mm later generations or the sliding scale. The VT (let alone Battlepod) standing tall over the Bioroid/Hovertank is fine by me. Yes, the Alpha being taller (when I know 'omg it's supposed to be shorter') isn't great, but if that's what it takes, I don't think I'd 'rage' about it per se.

Plus if an Alpha is that size, wouldn't a Beta be even bigger? I recall them being kind of squat but quite broad.

15mm does seem like a mistake.

The Sliding Scale is holding the most appeal, I think, but I suspect it's also the least likely option to be chosen.

As much as people would hate multiple scales, the intentional inconsistency would probably fry a couple poor souls.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:54:31


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


How many fans even know how the mecha scale to each other? Have they even appeared together onscreeen? Without following these kinds of threads, I would never have guessed that the jet mecha in one series were so much larger than the jet mecha in another series. Visually, having them near identical, even if the wrong one is slightly taller, is preferable to having one dwarf the other, even if it's canon. Your sliding scale might suffice for the biggest mecha, but the 'medium' mecah from later shows still look goofy-small and the tiny little human goobers would still be unusable for anything but pushing around on a multibase, which is not what I want from heroes on mechabikes.


I don't play those games. I may get into DZC, but the teeny troops are not a turn on at all, and I would almost prefer not to have them in the game at all. I use Epic minis as decoration on BFG ships.

They deserve to lose customers for breaking their promise, but they will also lose customers if they release an entire Robotech series in a scale that makes them ridiculously small. Basically, they chased the Battletech crowd and made a lot of money at the cost of the future of their game. The question is which choice will harm their brand less.

The only way I can see them not shedding fans by the dozens is to make both scales, or maybe some show piece larger-scale 'hero' models with everything else in scale, but that would be expensive and probably beyond their capabilities.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:57:48


Post by: warboss


 Forar wrote:
Bob... bob no, bob they'll cut you.

:-P

Warboss, your comparative diagram is selling me on either 10mm later generations or the sliding scale. The VT (let alone Battlepod) standing tall over the Bioroid/Hovertank is fine by me. Yes, the Alpha being taller (when I know 'omg it's supposed to be shorter') isn't great, but if that's what it takes, I don't think I'd 'rage' about it per se.

Plus if an Alpha is that size, wouldn't a Beta be even bigger? I recall them being kind of squat but quite broad.

15mm does seem like a mistake.

The Sliding Scale is holding the most appeal, I think, but I suspect it's also the least likely option to be chosen.

As much as people would hate multiple scales, the intentional inconsistency would probably fry a couple poor souls.


10mm would be my choice if they absolutely had to pick a single scale change for everything but I'd much rather have the sliding scale obviously. And, yes, the beta would be quite large even compared to zentraedi mecha at 10mm. It is however the second largest thing outside of macross (the wierd shadow chronicles non-transformable batlloid thing whose name escapes me is even bigger) so is a fringe case that I'd be willing to put up with just like the cyclone. YMMV.



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 20:58:23


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


And if they move all the minis to resin or metal, they're dead to me.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 21:23:46


Post by: warboss


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How many fans even know how the mecha scale to each other? Have they even appeared together onscreeen?


Together on screen? Nope. Basically, the size comparison is known only to folks who bought gashapon, toys, models, and figs as well as the RPG game plus those astute enough to notice the 250% difference in cockpit sizes. Of course the brand new totally not interfering with wave 2 civilian vehicles will look odd with cyclones towering like giants over cargo trucks.

They deserve to lose customers for breaking their promise, but they will also lose customers if they release an entire Robotech series in a scale that makes them ridiculously small. Basically, they chased the Battletech crowd and made a lot of money at the cost of the future of their game. The question is which choice will harm their brand less.


While you are correct in that they may lose some future fans by not changing the scale, the macross era is by far the most popular of the three. While there are some very dedicated and vocal fans of the other two series, the macross episodes are easily the most recognizable and rembered both by the general nerd populace as well as gamers. Telling the largest single portion of your player base that everything they bought (including the half of the stuff they still have yet to receive!) is out of scale already will likely lose them the most customers. The battletech players are a wash either way as they likely wouldn't pick up any other era stuff regardless of whether it was 3mm all the way to 28mm... they just wanted their unseen and they got them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
And if they move all the minis to resin or metal, they're dead to me.


I'm ambivalent to that one. After seeing the plastic minis' detail and parts count, I'd rather have the smaller stuff in resin or metal if it means more cinematic poses and ease of assembly. That wouldn't apply though to the much larger zentraedi where metal would be too heavy IMO. The 15mm change over though would pretty much make the game dead to me. I'm already choosing not to purchase possible more than a box or two of minis in the future due to their 2 year long douchebaggery (and I was at only the basic $140 pledge level to start because I specifically WANTED to play their abandoned skirmish variant) so at this point I'm fighting simply for the possibility of someday fielding my macross stuff against other eras. That possibility is nixed with a 15mm change. That's MORE than the difference between plopping down Inquisitor scale figs on a 40k game table and being surprised that folks raise a stink.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 21:41:18


Post by: NTRabbit


I'm in favour of keeping it at 6mm, I think multibasing 6mm scale Cyclones will work out fine.

At a push I'd accept this sliding scale, but not overly rapt with it.

Not at all interested in a shift to 15mm


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 21:54:23


Post by: Manchu


This issue also kind of befuddled me when it came up with X-Wing but I'm not sure I understand the point of achieving the precisely "correct" scale with, er, make believe vehicles.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 22:12:29


Post by: Mike1975


 warboss wrote:
 Kalamadea wrote:
But that just emphasises how completely necessary the scale change is. Without going to 15mm then the other eras are going to be REALLY tiny for no other reason than to match macross with battletech players. Macross is just too large for the other eras to stay at 6mm


I disagree. What it shows is that there should be a sliding scale and not a blanket one size fits all rescale of everything post macross. The cyclones need to be significantly bigger so bump them up to 10mm (see the pic below). The other mecha largely look too big (other than the Invid scout) so you bump them up half way to 8.5mm instead. The alphas, bioroids, and hovertanks are STILL smaller than the macross stuff but they're also not visually jarringly smaller (more like a space marine to a terminator and not a terminator to a halfling) YMMV.

Mods, I'll be replacing the previous pic with this combined one so as not to give Kid Kyoto a spam spasm when he sees so much robotech in one day. It'll take me a bit to delete the previous pic attachments though with a link to this one. I'm obviously biased but I think the sliding scale one works the best although I'd probably say after seeing the cyclones that they get a bump up to 10mm instead. That feels like the goldilocks solution for me. The 10mm is acceptable but not preferrable whereas bumping everything up to 15mm is the absolute worst choice IMO. YMMV.


Probably should have asked first but I shared these scale shots over on the FB page. Thanks for the hard work. They look great. If you want me to take them down just let me know.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 22:58:46


Post by: Killionaire


 Manchu wrote:
This issue also kind of befuddled me when it came up with X-Wing but I'm not sure I understand the point of achieving the precisely "correct" scale with, er, make believe vehicles.


Honestly, nobody really was making a fuss about X-Wing scale. All of the fighters are in scale with each other entirely. This is relevant only because you want things to 'look right'. If you want to see problems with scale, check out the Star Wars Attack Wing game: Nothing has a remotely relevant scale, so you get issues like the Reliant being like 3 times larger than the Enterprise, and other things which don't feel right.

The reason scale matters at all is just not to throw off your suspension of disbelief. If they released an SDF-1 for Robotech, and it's six inches long... sure, it's larger than your battlepod. But not by enough to make sense.

TBFH, the scale thing is a giant red herring to throw the discussion off 'Where is Wave 2'.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 23:11:44


Post by: warboss


 Killionaire wrote:

TBFH, the scale thing is a giant red herring to throw the discussion off 'Where is Wave 2'.


That it is but it is also the future of the game line as well. Wave 2 is the long delayed present.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 23:15:27


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Manchu wrote:
This issue also kind of befuddled me when it came up with X-Wing but I'm not sure I understand the point of achieving the precisely "correct" scale with, er, make believe vehicles.


X-wing, the fighters are in scale, but capitol ships are grossly out of scale. They don't belong together. It's like trying to put Carrier Groups into a dogfighting game.
____

 Killionaire wrote:
Honestly, nobody really was making a fuss about X-Wing scale. All of the fighters are in scale with each other entirely. This is relevant only because you want things to 'look right'.

If you want to see problems with scale, check out the Star Wars Attack Wing game: Nothing has a remotely relevant scale, so you get issues like the Reliant being like 3 times larger than the Enterprise, and other things which don't feel right.

The reason scale matters at all is just not to throw off your suspension of disbelief. If they released an SDF-1 for Robotech, and it's six inches long... sure, it's larger than your battlepod. But not by enough to make sense.

TBFH, the scale thing is a giant red herring to throw the discussion off 'Where is Wave 2'.


STAW?

Ugh.

But yeah, I want Wave 2!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 23:16:58


Post by: warboss


 Mike1975 wrote:

Probably should have asked first but I shared these scale shots over on the FB page. Thanks for the hard work. They look great. If you want me to take them down just let me know.


No worries, thanks and share away and please include a link to the thread here on dakka since the site is kind of enough to host gaming pics for free. I don't own either of the original source images' copyrights so it would be a bit stupid of me to raise a stink even if it bothered me (which it doesn't). If it helps more folks accurately visualize how truly large a 15mm flat scale increase really is for the whole game line compared with 6mm Macross instead of the cyclone only focus of the palladium pics, then mission accomplished. I don't want 20ft cyclones stomping around the battlefield. 10mm isn't perfect but if there has to be a single scale then that would be it and it meshes with DZC figs and more importantly terrain as well.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 23:22:30


Post by: Manchu


You guys saying X-Wing fighters are in scale ... you should look into the A-Wing debates ...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/08 23:35:56


Post by: warboss


 Manchu wrote:
You guys saying X-Wing fighters are in scale ... you should look into the A-Wing debates ...


To my knowledge, that is the only one with a publicized scale issue and is the exception rather than the rule (unlike STAW where the opposite seems true). That would be the in thread equivalent of Palladium increasing ONLY the cyclone to a bigger scale and leaving the rest alone.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 00:00:03


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Warboss, I'll have to take your word for it. If 6mm is the most profitable option then they should take it. I won't buy 6mm cyclones even if they are plastic, and I wouldn't buy any mecha or Invid that are significantly smaller than a Valkyrie. I want minis I can enjoy without the game, since I won't be playing it, and an invid scout the size of my thumbnail just isn't enjoyable. Have fun with 6mm Invid if that's how it goes. I'll just wait until I can find some gashapon or toys that won't blow away in a sneeze.

Frankly, the Invid are the most distinctive designs in the whole Robotech saga. I wish I could find some good minis for them.



I love what they've done for STAW. All the ship minis are good sizes for playing with. They also cost the same amount and take up the same amount of space, which makes them easier to collect.

Killionaire, I would LOVE a 6 inch SDF1. I'd even buy it in resin.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 00:09:55


Post by: Lynx7725


Taking a step back and looking at it from a product development point of view...

It's actually good that PB is doing this discussion now; if Wave 2 is not more or less on the rails by this time, it's never going to happen, so they need to now think about new products to keep the money coming in to the company. Thinking about the scale problem now is about the most forward looking thing they've done in this whole episode -- and even then, there's a fail because they should already have done it.

Yes, Wave 2 should and has to be a priority, but having a priority doesn't mean you can work on some other things at the same time. The only problem with that with PB in particular is that they seem to have a shiny object problem, as in "ooo SHINY!" and hare off after something, forgetting about Wave 2. I don't think that's happening in this case though.

Anyhow.

From a product development perspective, this scale problem is actually fairly important. HG -- not PB -- absolutely need the cross-generation fights to occur. Right now a large portion of their consumer base is people like us who know the difference between the series and often, are just interested in one segment or the other. Has been like that for years.

Without something creatively new to gel the three components together, it'd continue to be the case and frankly, there would be little to new customers coming on stream to provide revenue -- the original series are dated and awareness is slowly fading away. HG tried to do "creatively new" with Sentinels, then Shadow Chronicles (with a huge dead space in between), but that's largely fell flat on their faces.

But "creatively new" can also come from another area. The whole backstory of a previous galatic war hasn't been explored well -- the whole Masters-Invid conflict, then the Zentraedi-Invid conflict, first Invid Invasion, etc. These are all huge areas where new stories can be told and a lot of things can be done. To tap on that, you need some sort of consistency between the series.

In RRT, that means having the ability to use different generation's units against each other. Without that tie, they really can't move the product forward to create new IP for Robotech. Most of us won't care, but it is actually important to attract new customers to an old brand. So solving that scale issue is one step to help them get more stuff out of the IP, and as such is important.

All that makes me wonder how much HG is actually doing the driving. Kevin would be the correct person to help set the various stories -- he is, after all, very good at telling them -- but it strikes me as that he's the very wrong guy to drive a mechanically complex solution to the problem in a domain PB is not known to be good in. It feels like somebody is taking a big hammer to PB's wrong-shaped peg and trying to use it to solve problems, with PB/ Kevin stuck in the wrong place between a hard rock and a hammer.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 00:21:28


Post by: warboss


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Warboss, I'll have to take your word for it. If 6mm is the most profitable option then they should take it. I won't buy 6mm cyclones even if they are plastic, and I wouldn't buy any mecha or Invid that are significantly smaller than a Valkyrie. I want minis I can enjoy without the game, since I won't be playing it, and an invid scout the size of my thumbnail just isn't enjoyable. Have fun with 6mm Invid if that's how it goes. I'll just wait until I can find some gashapon or toys that won't blow away in a sneeze.

Frankly, the Invid are the most distinctive designs in the whole Robotech saga. I wish I could find some good minis for them.



I love what they've done for STAW. All the ship minis are good sizes for playing with. They also cost the same amount and take up the same amount of space, which makes them easier to collect.

Killionaire, I would LOVE a 6 inch SDF1. I'd even buy it in resin.


I think they have 1/3000 to 1/8000 kits for the SDF in resin but they're pricey. Just for the record, I'm not advocating 6mm cyclones or even 6mm invid mecha. I'm advocating bumping up the scale of everything SC and New Gen on a sliding scale based on what best fits EACH mini individually (subjectively 20-50% roughly but I'm definitely not married to those exact numbers). I just want palladium to find a middle ground between unplayably small cyclones and giants towering over the existing macross minis. I just really hate the one size doesn't fit all but the cyclone solution palladium has latched onto and agree that 6mm has significant issues as well for those eras.

If you like the invid stuff the most, you should google the imai files to see the other half dozen or more prototype designs for beefier invid mecha that never made it to the screen or toys. They're protoytpe drawings of other cyclones (hover and space variants), the prototype alpha, etc that were pitched and shot down. I recently found out about it and thought it was pretty cool despite not being the biggest fan of new gen.



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 00:29:10


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love what they've done for STAW. All the ship minis are good sizes for playing with. They also cost the same amount and take up the same amount of space, which makes them easier to collect.

Killionaire, I would LOVE a 6 inch SDF1. I'd even buy it in resin.


@Bob, you're not being straight here. The picture I linked clearly shows that the pre-refit Enterprise and Reliant do not take up the same amount of space - they are out of scale for no obvious reason.
Spoiler:



Also, PB offered a resin SDF-1 as part of the campaign:

The SDF-1 Resin Collectors Edition is approximately 70-80mm tall


Did you buy it?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 00:55:50


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


JohnHwangDD, the STAW E-Nil is notoriously tiny. I had heard they were releasing a bigger version of it. The Reliant is a pretty good size, close to the Micro Machine version. I also wish they would release the fighters and shuttles as single minis about the size of X-Wing minis. I guess I shouldn't have used the word "all", as the big Borg Cube is also not the same size. But most of the STAW ships are roughly the same size as or up to 50% bigger than the Micro Machines. They don't have anything like a 6mm minis sharing the field with a 50mm mini.

And I asked them if they would sell me the SDF in spaceship form, and they said no.
Palladium Books
Palladium Books
Jun 10 2013
Report spam
Hi [Bob].
The SDF-1 will be in Battloid form only.

Jeff
Palladium Books


So, no, I did not buy it. I want a spaceship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warboss, if you know where I can get this stuff easily, please let me know. I've tried buying through hlj, and I apparently have an order waiting in limbo over there. When the RTT KS happened, I bought a few "what's in the box?" Macross toys, but I haven't seen any Invid stuff anywhere.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 01:19:21


Post by: MangoMadness


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.


What games do you play? In comparison to the majority of popular wargaming models (28mm scale) the destroids and valks are huge.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 01:37:39


Post by: warboss


Even at the buffs I posted to between 8-10mm, the SC/New Gen mecha are generally the size of a 25mm Infinity fig to a 28mm 40k fig. There is plenty on there to paint and customize if my experience is any indication. I don't have any comparison pics myself but the destroid is smaller than the veritech and the destroid is still bigger than a 40k space marine. The average southern cross stuff and most invid at 10mm will be about that size and the size of an infinity infantry fig that tons of folks love to paint lovingly at the sliding scale. The exceptions would be the scouts,cyclones, and power armors obviously.

Spoiler:






On an unrelated non-scale note, I found these pics from a digital sculptor while looking for the type of 40k scale pics above. Have these yf-4 pics ever been posted in the old thread? More at the link and spoilered below.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597588.page


Spoiler:





Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 01:42:12


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Bob, the STAW Enterprise is half the size that it should be, compared to the Reliant. It's like 7 mm vs 14mm, and it looks ridiculous. It would have been OK if the NX-Enterprise were so small, or the Defiant, but those ships are supposed to be tiny.

As for a SDF-1 ship, there's the Hasegawa version, only $50-ish. Good luck, though.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 01:58:07


Post by: warboss


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Warboss, if you know where I can get this stuff easily, please let me know. I've tried buying through hlj, and I apparently have an order waiting in limbo over there. When the RTT KS happened, I bought a few "what's in the box?" Macross toys, but I haven't seen any Invid stuff anywhere.


Unfortunately, the Invid stuff I was talking about were just concept art drawings. Some guy bought out the model company's building that used to make the mospeada model kits and he found a few file folders/envelops with rejected concept art for Invid and Mospeada human stuff. No actual models were made and the designs were rejected and pretty much lost for 20 years. Palladium is supposedly using some of the art for their upcoming marine book for their prototype cyclones but I didn't hear anything about the invid being used for new stuff.

http://worldofjaymz.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Web_Archives

You can legally acquire it from there.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 02:36:19


Post by: Lynx7725


paulson games wrote:Can't rely on a RPG company to ever understand gak about the miniatures industry, which is the root cause of so many of their failures. They either don't get it, or just don't care because they don't understand miniature gamers and what drives their customer base. ::shrug::

Crux of the problem, I think. Do you know, I went and flip through the first few pages of the RTT rulebook, and they never actually said what the game was about, in wargaming terms? Company level game? Skirmish? Random roll dice? Nada. I don't think they actually called it a wargame, even. One online version I've heard is that the game has to be pitched as an RPG supplement (and most definitely not a wargame) because of licensing constraints.

I have the impression is that there's a distinct lack of common vision for this project. The original people had some picture. ND had one set of pictures, HG had another, Kevin had some picture, the eventual writers had another set of pictures. Overlay them together and you get the Frankenstein that we have currently.

TBH, asking for user feedback when the producer have no idea what the product is about is just going to fail, because any feedback would not fit some form of vision within the project team -- it's a confirmed miss right off the start. It's nice that Kevin is willing to make a stand for his vision, but it'd have been waaaay better if he can communicate his vision to his project team before too many things get committed to the point where recovery is along the lines of "Pull on the stick and pray hard"...


JohnHwangDD wrote:As for a SDF-1 ship, there's the Hasegawa version, only $50-ish. Good luck, though.

Yeah I got that one somewhere in storage. Got to get around to it.. eventually.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 03:12:39


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 warboss wrote:
Unfortunately, the Invid stuff I was talking about were just concept art drawings. Some guy bought out the model company's building that used to make the mospeada model kits and he found a few file folders/envelops with rejected concept art for Invid and Mospeada human stuff. No actual models were made and the designs were rejected and pretty much lost for 20 years. Palladium is supposedly using some of the art for their upcoming marine book for their prototype cyclones but I didn't hear anything about the invid being used for new stuff.


With the success of the PB RRT KS, I'm surprised those priceless things weren't all stolen during Crisis of Treachery II.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 03:21:17


Post by: warboss


I know you're being sarcastic but they were in a rundown closed building unused for years in Japan that used to house the model company (seriously). This was like an anime lovers dream episode of pickers. Ironically, this made them more secure than the priceless works on art on the Palladium staff fridge that were stolen.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 03:22:03


Post by: Merijeek


Well, if it helps they have no interest in user feedback.

So asking is just a distraction anyway.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:10:53


Post by: warboss


So after checking out the KS comments, it appears that Chuck Walton is now helming the robotech project in place of Jeff Burke? Because when you have a massively delayed project frought with tons of very technical issues, the best person to act as a project manager is the guy you previously hired for his drawings...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:11:30


Post by: Cypher-xv


Here's pics of my trek ships in 1/7000. I hope this works the last time I posted pics it just showed the same one over and over again.


[Thumb - image.jpg]
[Thumb - image.jpg]


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:13:19


Post by: Cypher-xv


Here's a pic of an rrt model next to a 15mm and 6mm cyclone


[Thumb - image.jpg]


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:14:18


Post by: Cypher-xv


And another pic

[Thumb - image.jpg]


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:14:52


Post by: Lynx7725


 warboss wrote:
So after checking out the KS comments, it appears that Chuck Walton is now helming the robotech project in place of Jeff Burke? Because when you have a massively delayed project frought with tons of very technical issues, the best person to act as a project manager is the guy you previously hired for his drawings...

Situation Normal at PB. I don't think they learn very much from project issues over the decades.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:15:11


Post by: JohnHwangDD


That 6mm Cyclone is so cute. He could practically pilot the Veritech. Oh, wait...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:15:25


Post by: warboss


The average of the two seems like it would be the best for the cyclone. Big enough to paint well but not obscenely oversized next to macross stuff. Thanks for posting real life examples in the same pic... you have officially topped palladium in that regard!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:32:16


Post by: Lynx7725


I'd prefer 6mm, but I'm not going to cry if they cheat a bit and bulk them out a bit. You get used to that kind of thing when dealing with small scale wargaming.

15mm just looks weird, really.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:40:58


Post by: Cypher-xv


 warboss wrote:
The average of the two seems like it would be the best for the cyclone. Big enough to paint well but not obscenely oversized next to macross stuff. Thanks for posting real life examples in the same pic... you have officially topped palladium in that regard!


Thank you sir. I did it when I saw Mike post your mock up on FB.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 04:56:40


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 MangoMadness wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.


What games do you play? In comparison to the majority of popular wargaming models (28mm scale) the destroids and valks are huge.


The Valkyrie in guardian and fighter modes is smaller than any Micro Machine jet or toy meant to be held in a hand. They are a pain to assemble and fall apart with any kind of handling. The destroids are very slim and fiddly and have a ton of pieces. They may be taller than 28mm humans, but they are not as robust. They just feel small. The Zentaedi minis feel right to me.


I can't really get into Perry minis because they are so small compared to other 28mm figures (as well as boring). Below a certain size, I find a miniature loses its value as a miniature and only maintains value as a gaming piece. Since I don't game much, those pieces have no value to me.

I'd have to see 10mm cyclones, but the 6mm is just so small as to be pointless for me. The invid scout, which I care about much more, would similarly be too small to be anything other than a gaming piece, a token.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cypher-xv wrote:
Here's pics of my trek ships in 1/7000. I hope this works the last time I posted pics it just showed the same one over and over again.



Are you posting from an iPad? Whenever I do, all the pictures have the same name, so Dakka just assumes they are the same picture. If you use one post per picture, it will work better.

Where did you find that Steamrunner? I'd love to have one. The Negh'Varr looks a bit out of proportion with itself.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 05:57:21


Post by: Cypher-xv


Yes I'm posting from an iPad. Thanks. The steamrunner and negvar are old minis I traded for last decade. Some guy made a few and I traded him some of my 1/7000 akira class ships.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 06:02:45


Post by: Manchu


The question of whether game pieces have value outside of gaming is rather absurd. It's a bit like asking someone who never plans to use a knife whether how sharp the blade is matters to them: who cares? Neither the person asked not the person asking, if we're being honest. i realize that painting, displaying, or even simply collecting game pieces may be your thing. But surely you wouldn't expect PB (or any game company) to tailor their game pieces to non-gaming purposes anymore than you would expect fine scale modelling companies to make more robust products for gaming purposes.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 06:42:43


Post by: Jehan-reznor


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Bob, the STAW Enterprise is half the size that it should be, compared to the Reliant. It's like 7 mm vs 14mm, and it looks ridiculous. It would have been OK if the NX-Enterprise were so small, or the Defiant, but those ships are supposed to be tiny.

As for a SDF-1 ship, there's the Hasegawa version, only $50-ish. Good luck, though.


You mean this one?
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-language/product/B00SIIJL24/ref=dp_change_lang?ie=UTF8&language=en_JP


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 07:39:01


Post by: Talizvar


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 MangoMadness wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My Destroids and Valkyries are already tiny enough, if not too tiny, so I really hope they don't put out cyclones that small.
What games do you play? In comparison to the majority of popular wargaming models (28mm scale) the destroids and valks are huge.
The Valkyrie in guardian and fighter modes is smaller than any Micro Machine jet or toy meant to be held in a hand. They are a pain to assemble and fall apart with any kind of handling. The destroids are very slim and fiddly and have a ton of pieces. They may be taller than 28mm humans, but they are not as robust. They just feel small. The Zentaedi minis feel right to me.
I can't really get into Perry minis because they are so small compared to other 28mm figures (as well as boring). Below a certain size, I find a miniature loses its value as a miniature and only maintains value as a gaming piece. Since I don't game much, those pieces have no value to me.
I'd have to see 10mm cyclones, but the 6mm is just so small as to be pointless for me. The invid scout, which I care about much more, would similarly be too small to be anything other than a gaming piece, a token.
The intent was to have models of a similar scale and size to warfare with.
There are many appropriately larger sized models for collectors if that is your primary purpose.
Mind you "Inbit" models are nasty hard to find.
This guy: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showuser=632John Moscat
Made the model kit "Pinky the space crab"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/211384222/Genesis-Climber-MOSPEADA-1-48-Inbit-Gurab-Production-Model-Diary-John-Moscato#scribd
He just finished last year making a blue "Gamo".
It just seems strange to push for something significantly bigger that pushes it outside the scope of scale as a gaming piece.
Guaranteed no-one would be happy.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 14:18:12


Post by: Mike1975


I pulled an older file if someone wants to take it to the next level....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just about all the mecha are there you just have to convert them to 6mm or 10mm.

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 Description
 File size 4127 Kbytes



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 14:36:48


Post by: Albertorius


Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 14:41:31


Post by: Mike1975


 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>



LOL!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 14:43:41


Post by: Forar


 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>


Number of words in the two combined (according to MS Office): 10,106
Amount of new info on Wave Two: None. (this isn't quite so fun a fact)


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 15:29:00


Post by: Albertorius


 Forar wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":

Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37

Not bad for a single update >_>


Number of words in the two combined (according to MS Office): 10,106
Amount of new info on Wave Two: None. (this isn't quite so fun a fact)

There was one, I think: GHQ is apparently going to do minis of Macross conventional vehicles.

Two, if you count them going for 15mm (yeah, they say they're still undecided. Yeah, right).

The fact that those two things are in the same post (release of new 6mm scale vehicles, change to 15mm) is, to me, immensely funny.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 15:54:16


Post by: Talizvar


 Albertorius wrote:
 Forar wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Fun fact about the bigass non-updating "update":
Number of ®s in the two combined: 109
Number of ™s in the two combined: 37
Not bad for a single update >_>
Number of words in the two combined (according to MS Office): 10,106
Amount of new info on Wave Two: None. (this isn't quite so fun a fact)
There was one, I think: GHQ is apparently going to do minis of Macross conventional vehicles.
Two, if you count them going for 15mm (yeah, they say they're still undecided. Yeah, right).
The fact that those two things are in the same post (release of new 6mm scale vehicles, change to 15mm) is, to me, immensely funny.
The analysis you have both put into what Kevin had to say is beyond the call of duty and may have put your minds at no small risk: I salute you!
I figure the more conventional vehicles are more applicable to the "macross" version of Robotech which 6mm is pretty much how it will remain unless PB is swimming in cash to redo, any new models they can figure that out as soon as they "decide" on the scale going forward.
Being able to slip in some existing models from GHQ may be the godsend they are looking for: "They want models?! we have models now!".

I still maintain this whole thing is a smokescreen and it still is "we need money for wave2 so buy this stuff we have here", I really, really hope I am wrong.

I am now in an even bigger mess on my original question on the "scale" of model to get (make?) for say a Lisa objective.
I should probably shelve that thought until I am sure I will not do some weird rage-quit.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 16:06:22


Post by: Swabby


The pricing and sudden appearence of additional convention exclusives really lends itself to a cash grab for capital. All speculation of course.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 16:23:50


Post by: Sinful Hero


This update, and the exclusive's timing before Gencon leads me to believe they're wanting the big reveal they were wanting last year, but missed out on.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 17:11:29


Post by: Forar


 Albertorius wrote:
There was one, I think: GHQ is apparently going to do minis of Macross conventional vehicles.

Two, if you count them going for 15mm (yeah, they say they're still undecided. Yeah, right).

The fact that those two things are in the same post (release of new 6mm scale vehicles, change to 15mm) is, to me, immensely funny.


Neither of those apply to wave two. :-P

The former is them expanding the product line beyond the KS's original scope, and the latter only applies to later series of unreleased product that probably won't exist until 2017 or beyond (if ever, and that's a biiiiig If).

It's funny, I agree that there's an appearance of being a cash grab, but at the same time, if they're actually in financial trouble (in terms of capital needed for Wave Two), I highly doubt it'll help much. What kind of profit margin are we thinking are on these things? Usual retail markup is generally, what, ~100%? Even if they're clearing $12-15 per Limited Edition figure, they can sell 10,000 of them and still only pull in 150k. I vaguely recall them selling out of Max/Miriya during last Gencon, but didn't they only have like 200 of them per day or something? Moving a thousand figures at the convention is one thing. Moving ten thousand (let alone tens of thousands) even across the entire internet seems considerably less likely.

I'm sure some people will buy. I don't think they'll buy in anything resembling the kind of quantities it'd take to rake in a significant bump in funding.

If they couldn't complete the full project with ~1.5m, another 10% is unlikely to save it. Unless they've somehow got everything but shipping sorted out (or some other expense), I just don't see these things being anything but a drop in the bucket.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 17:43:19


Post by: warboss


I don't recall them saying specifically but I wonder if the metal GHQ invid they're considering doing are planned currently in 6mm or 15mm. I could see them doing the metals (low lead time as in planning not the metal element, cheap molds, US production) in 6mm and then switching to whatever it is that they'll switch to for the plastics.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 17:46:11


Post by: Manchu


I'd hope 6mm so as to be compatible with the existing kits. It would be one thing to release a whole range of 15mm RRT models but only one?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 18:00:27


Post by: warboss


I'm not sure I was clear but what I was saying the whole plastic line of southern cross and new gen stuff would be 15mm (so every thing there) but the more short term metal GHQ invid would be 6mm. I don't know if that clarifies as I'm not sure what you meant by only one.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 18:01:24


Post by: Manchu


I meant, I would hope anything by GHQ will be in 6mm because 15mm would make no market sense.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 19:00:05


Post by: Balance


 Albertorius wrote:
I... actually like how they look at 6mm, TBH.


I guess it depends on the game to me.

If it's meant to simulate the rare Invid Invasion era 'big battles' where you see Cyclones as infantry moving across battlefields to support the 'armor' of large mecha, the 6mm looks fine. it's a big base representing a squad or similar.

If it's trying to represent the show, individuals seem more necessary, as the show was more about a small band of hero-types fighting a guerrilla war.

These sound like two different totally valid game concepts.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 19:20:03


Post by: warboss


Another issue is that the cyclones are ridiculously overpowered and (except for range) have half the MDC and firepower of models over 10x their size. If you use the RPG stats straight out of the book, a cyclone squadron on one base is so tiny but yet kicks the crap out of a veritech at close range which feels odd IMO.

I'm biased as I've never been a fan of them in the RPG because they simply screw things up. You have a game where almost everything is to some degree a big stompy space robot... and then there are cyclones. They don't do the same scenarios and battles well that the other mecha generally do and act like remote rigging/hacking/astral projection do in shadowrun in that if you're pleasing the cyclone player(s) then everyone else is bored. Then throw in the OP nature of the armor's MDC and couple it with the very short range weapons and you have fights that they're either ridiculously good at or ridiculously bad at. YMMV but it seems like the GM and players need to get together ahead of the campaign and decide if they want a ground based infantry scaled game with cyclones at the majority or everything else. You can't run a dogfighting veritech space fighter campaign without boring a cyclone player who is apparently hanging on to the alpha for dear life in space all the time or riding a beta like a cowboy?? Or you have a cyclone group exploring building interiors, caves, and dense forest/jungle forcing the veritech player to constantly either hang back or leave his mecha completely for hours at a time at the table.

That same issue to a degree is extending into this tabletop game. The cyclones would be best in a 28mm style skirmish game where an "army" is <10 figs including at most one or two "big" mecha like an alpha or destroid the size of a 40k titan. The other mecha (whether southern cross veritechs, alpha/betas, macross, etc) work as intended at the current scale (although they do scale down to skirmish as well).

The only solution I'd see would be to leave "hero" cyclones for RPG/license purpsoses at full stats for a single tiny fig but limit them to 1-2 per army like VF-1S characters. The rest of the zergling rush cyclones would instead have the same stats for the 40mm multi-model base of cyclones. I don't really see another way to do it while still keeping both swarm and character cyclones in this current type of mass battle game.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 19:21:49


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Manchu wrote:
The question of whether game pieces have value outside of gaming is rather absurd. It's a bit like asking someone who never plans to use a knife whether how sharp the blade is matters to them: who cares? Neither the person asked not the person asking, if we're being honest. i realize that painting, displaying, or even simply collecting game pieces may be your thing. But surely you wouldn't expect PB (or any game company) to tailor their game pieces to non-gaming purposes anymore than you would expect fine scale modelling companies to make more robust products for gaming purposes.


...

...I also collect fantasy swords and daggers I will never use, and I do care how sharp they are. Well, I guess I use them on oranges sometimes.

I don't expect them to tailor it to me, but I do wonder how many of the RTT backers backed for RTT minis rather than the RTT game (and game pieces). Whatever. Keep 6mm scale and let the gamers enjoy them. I'll just wait for someone to make not-Invid minis in a bigger scale and buy those.

And I just added that SDF1 to my wishlist. Thanks!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 19:22:57


Post by: JohnHwangDD


It's actually pretty easy when Characters are an upgrade to the base.

Instead of 5 generic Cyclones on the base, it would be 1 Character and 2 or 3 "fillers".


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 19:33:03


Post by: Easy E


I think they look good at 6mm too.

However, as stated, it depends on the nature of the game. If it is supposed to do the big battles, than all good. If it is more like the show, then a larger scale is needed and it should NOT be compatible with Macrosse- scale-wise.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/09 23:54:31


Post by: warboss


 Mike1975 wrote:
I pulled an older file if someone wants to take it to the next level....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just about all the mecha are there you just have to convert them to 6mm or 10mm.


Thanks for reposting that. I'll probably let one of the other fine folks take a crack at resizing all that. It isn't too hard to resize a few things like I did but that one would be a bit more. Maybe later on this week or next if Palladium seems deadset on 15mm I'll resize a beta next to some zentraedi so they can see it towering uber alles including the MACII (which I think is the case at 250% / 15mm but I'll have to check the numbers).

So what are your homebrew thoughts on balancing cyclones? As I said before, I personally think they're hideously overpowered overall but with a potential achilles heel of range at least in the RPG. WIth all the ranges being smooshed down to fit onto a 6x4 table, I'm not sure with my n=0 game experience how much that would come into play.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 00:11:49


Post by: Talizvar


Conversion directly from RPG is PB intent and there had been lots of opportunities to balance them: not a likely change.

Also... Wave2???


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 00:15:56


Post by: Mike1975


 warboss wrote:
 Mike1975 wrote:
I pulled an older file if someone wants to take it to the next level....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just about all the mecha are there you just have to convert them to 6mm or 10mm.


Thanks for reposting that. I'll probably let one of the other fine folks take a crack at resizing all that. It isn't too hard to resize a few things like I did but that one would be a bit more. Maybe later on this week or next if Palladium seems deadset on 15mm I'll resize a beta next to some zentraedi so they can see it towering uber alles including the MACII (which I think is the case at 250% / 15mm but I'll have to check the numbers).

So what are your homebrew thoughts on balancing cyclones? As I said before, I personally think they're hideously overpowered overall but with a potential achilles heel of range at least in the RPG. WIth all the ranges being smooshed down to fit onto a 6x4 table, I'm not sure with my n=0 game experience how much that would come into play.[/quote

I really doubt they want to do the entire 3rd Gen in 15mm. They were talking about a skirmish game in 15mm coming out later. Of course I have not spoke to anyone there by phone in months. More likely they were thinking some of each per box, which is what we had last discussed and were looking for more information.

I have some cyclones already done up.......rule and all. I'm still working on the bigger stuff but all the stuff in green is ready.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dropped the MDC 2 each from the RPG conversions and then gave them a high DF with Quick. Quick means that they do not pay to dodge. They are 4 per stand. One Command Point per stand.

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 Filename REF-Sentinels 6-9-15.pptx [Disk] Download
 Description
 File size 3761 Kbytes



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 01:05:49


Post by: warboss


So they're four per base but they're still tracked individually for damage purposes and attack four times from each base? Do you target an individual cyclone then on the base if you attack it?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 01:32:33


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Talizvar wrote:
Also... Wave2???


Move along, nothing to see here...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 01:44:08


Post by: Mike1975


 warboss wrote:
So they're four per base but they're still tracked individually for damage purposes and attack four times from each base? Do you target an individual cyclone then on the base if you attack it?


That's what I had in mind....Only complete squadrons have commanders with one better GN so you can roll them faster. They don't have a big punch. A whole Squadron has the firepower of around a Regult Squad. They are hard to swat though. There is a couple slides in the first few pages on the PPT file with some rules. Feel free to look. This has been tested only a couple times by a fellow player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In many ways these are similar to Toads in battletech in that they are a great deterrent but these can transform and try to get to the battle faster.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 03:28:17


Post by: warboss


So if they get hit by a blast type weapon, all of them are hit and take damage individually? Is palladium ok with you dropping the MDC? Have they done that in the macross stuff as well for tactics compared with the RPG? It sounds interesting but my gut (which admittedly is 100% theoretical and 0% practical... rowboat gullyman would hate me!) makes me feel they'd be better off as a single unit with multiple actions possible via command points instead. How do you hand rear shots and turns? Are they all considered to be or mandated to be facing the same direction?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 04:20:05


Post by: Mike1975


 warboss wrote:
So if they get hit by a blast type weapon, all of them are hit and take damage individually? Is palladium ok with you dropping the MDC? Have they done that in the macross stuff as well for tactics compared with the RPG? It sounds interesting but my gut (which admittedly is 100% theoretical and 0% practical... rowboat gullyman would hate me!) makes me feel they'd be better off as a single unit with multiple actions possible via command points instead. How do you hand rear shots and turns? Are they all considered to be or mandated to be facing the same direction?


What I wrote when I posted these in my group....

So Cyclones....
They add 1 Command Point Per Base.
4 Cyclones per Base Unless it is a special unit.
MDC was reduced from the RPG stats by 2 each.
Instead of "Plot" armor I've given them a high DF rating and quick. Quick allows them to dodge without paying Command Points.
When you shoot at a Base, roll D6 to randomly determine which cyclone was hit.
Due to their small size Cyclones and other infantry cannot Roll with Impact!
Included are rules for cyclones and infantry in buildings and a few other things.

So as to your questions....PB likely knows I dropped them down since I told them in an email. Since I've never got feedback from PB I have no clue what they think of it. One per stand and you will have a TON of cyclones on the table. They are tough but don't do much damage so I decided that about 4 were an equivalent to a Destroid. Blast weapons against these are nasty, and they should be. It's like throwing a super grenade between a cluster of troops. They have no facings so they cannot be rear shot when in Battle/Cyclone. This works but feels odd to me still but in Ride/Bike mode they do have a forward facing and can ONLY fire front with the wheel weapons and at a reduced GN. They can also be hit from the rear at that point. Some people question the No Rolling with Impact but since they can dodge well any shot that does hit is going to hurt. I don't see them Rolling with Impact, more like dodging only. These need to be tested more but it's my first pass combined with some input.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 04:24:04


Post by: Lynx7725


 Balance wrote:

If it's meant to simulate the rare Invid Invasion era 'big battles' where you see Cyclones as infantry moving across battlefields to support the 'armor' of large mecha, the 6mm looks fine. it's a big base representing a squad or similar.

If it's trying to represent the show, individuals seem more necessary, as the show was more about a small band of hero-types fighting a guerrilla war.

These sound like two different totally valid game concepts.

I said similar earlier, but yeah. The two game levels (the first, company level; the second, skirmish level) are valid but doesn't mix well together. It's a rare ruleset that can handle both together simultaneously, which is why you typically don't see it. The current RRT ruleset seems to be written more for company-level games.

No matter which way it's taken though, Cyclones are just going to create issues. Firstly, RRT doesn't have the concept of the human infantryman, unlike in CBT which has and group them into (somewhat) effective combatants; RRT just ignores human infantry, because until Invid Invasion, there are very few (practically none) man-portable anti-mecha units/ tactics written about. That is actually a major hole in the ruleset, because human infantry vs. mecha is actually one of the conceptually more interesting engagements you can fight. And without the concept of human infantryman in the game, a powered-armoured infantry is also going to create problems, and that's exactly what a Cyclone is.

The other thing is that from a settings perspective, it's better IMO for RRT to stay as a company level game. We don't see many big battles in New Generations simply because of the settings, but Robotech have another setting that these big battles can occur -- Sentinels. Those would be the perfect setting to use RRT in, and to be honest I'm keen to see Invid Inorganics at work. And from a product development perspective, it's in HG and PB's interests to further develop these and then move the focus away from the original three series.

So Invid vs. REF, Invid vs. Zentraedi (either remnants or pre-Robotech fights), etc. etc. To be honest, 6mm Invid would really give life to the Invid horde aspect -- for every basic Zent infantryman, you get two Invid Scouts, at least. Four Inorganics for every Masters Bioroid. The mental picture of a RRT game with those is quite entertaining.

Is there room for a New Generations type Skirmish game? Hell yeah. I'd love to see 28mm Cyclones and smaller Invid.. a 28mm Shock Trooper would be a treat. Post-apocalyptic setting with aliens? REF survivors fighting Invids and human survivors? Heck that's a line that'd sell itself if done right.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 06:13:26


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
I have some cyclones already done up.......rule and all. I'm still working on the bigger stuff but all the stuff in green is ready.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dropped the MDC 2 each from the RPG conversions and then gave them a high DF with Quick. Quick means that they do not pay to dodge. They are 4 per stand. One Command Point per stand.

So... a small stand full of the equivalent of Regult Battlepods, toughness-wise? Yeah, that'll do wonders for the balance of the game. Also, more book-keeping, just because we can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mike1975 wrote:
In many ways these are similar to Toads in battletech in that they are a great deterrent but these can transform and try to get to the battle faster.

Toads are nowhere near that tough, killy or versatile. I'd suggest they should probably be much more like the series and much less like the Robotech RPG, if you want them to integrate with the rest of the game. For a separate game of Cyclones vs. Invid, though... all bets are off, but they would probably benefit of doing them at 28mm, even.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 08:02:33


Post by: Cypher-xv


Cyclones shouldn't be so tuff. Remember at the beginning of mospeada earth lost to the invid. When the invid arrived earth already had large numbers of cyclones and it still wasn't enough. Heck the only reason the UEDF took back terra is because the invid chose to leave. I could be wrong, it's been years since I've seen it.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 12:45:31


Post by: Mike1975


 Albertorius wrote:
 Mike1975 wrote:
I have some cyclones already done up.......rule and all. I'm still working on the bigger stuff but all the stuff in green is ready.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dropped the MDC 2 each from the RPG conversions and then gave them a high DF with Quick. Quick means that they do not pay to dodge. They are 4 per stand. One Command Point per stand.

So... a small stand full of the equivalent of Regult Battlepods, toughness-wise? Yeah, that'll do wonders for the balance of the game. Also, more book-keeping, just because we can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mike1975 wrote:
In many ways these are similar to Toads in battletech in that they are a great deterrent but these can transform and try to get to the battle faster.

Toads are nowhere near that tough, killy or versatile. I'd suggest they should probably be much more like the series and much less like the Robotech RPG, if you want them to integrate with the rest of the game. For a separate game of Cyclones vs. Invid, though... all bets are off, but they would probably benefit of doing them at 28mm, even.


Thanks for the input....what I said is that a full Squadron of 8 has about the same firepower as a Regult Squad. So 8 cyclones on 2 stands has a bit less firepower than 6 Battlepods and a lot less range but harder to kill. Cyclones don't have as much firepower in ride mode for obvious reasons. Hence why I dumbed down the damage they could take from the RPG. The RPG used "plot" armor and made these ridiculously tough. I can justify toning it down some if I exchange that toughness for other things like being harder to hit.

Now I think to properly do New Gen you will need a skirmish level game at 15mm for cyclones. 28mm will not work. If you ever have a Beta on the table it'll be like 12 inches tall. For the Sentinels stuff I think these will work great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cypher-xv wrote:
Cyclones shouldn't be so tuff. Remember at the beginning of mospeada earth lost to the invid. When the invid arrived earth already had large numbers of cyclones and it still wasn't enough. Heck the only reason the UEDF took back terra is because the invid chose to leave. I could be wrong, it's been years since I've seen it.


Agreed, Cyclones should fill a niche roll. Holding or taking ground. They are a bit faster than Zen Infantry and those will be interesting to use to say the least.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 13:06:43


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
Thanks for the input....what I said is that a full Squadron of 8 has about the same firepower as a Regult Squad.

You sure did. And what I said is that a base of 4 cyclones, each one with 6 hits plus free dodges are at the very least as tough as a full 6-units Regult squad. Don't you think it might be a tiny,teeny bit much? I'd buy the whole unit being as tough as a single Regult and adding free dodges to that, but what you're proposing feels nuts, pure and simple.

So 8 cyclones on 2 stands has a bit less firepower than 6 Battlepods and a lot less range but harder to kill. Cyclones don't have as much firepower in ride mode for obvious reasons. Hence why I dumbed down the damage they could take from the RPG. The RPG used "plot" armor and made these ridiculously tough. I can justify toning it down some if I exchange that toughness for other things like being harder to hit.

That's another thing: IIRC, a cyclone bike had a laser gun and a couple of disposable mini missiles, didn't they? Whereas each Regult battle pod has half a dozen laser guns, each as big as the whole cyclone... I don't think 2 stands should have a bit less firepower than 6 battlepods: I think 1 stand might have as much firepower as a single battlepod, tops.

Now I think to properly do New Gen you will need a skirmish level game at 15mm for cyclones. 28mm will not work. If you ever have a Beta on the table it'll be like 12 inches tall. For the Sentinels stuff I think these will work great.

I'm not sure how many people would prefer adding Betas when compared with being able to play with "full-sized" Cyclones. And they could also be used for the RPG, which surely would appeal to Kev.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, probably the best way to model Cyclone squads would be using a single statline for the whole base: something along the line of 4-6 hits for the whole unit, a special "infantry" or "tiny" rule forbidding doing more than 1 hit from anything without blast, and a combined weapons stat.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 13:35:09


Post by: Forar


 Cypher-xv wrote:
Cyclones shouldn't be so tuff. Remember at the beginning of mospeada earth lost to the invid. When the invid arrived earth already had large numbers of cyclones and it still wasn't enough. Heck the only reason the UEDF took back terra is because the invid chose to leave. I could be wrong, it's been years since I've seen it.


Tell that to Palladium, who decided (for the first edition) they were as tough as original VT's at a fraction of the size, and had an 'auto-dodge' (a free dodge in their rules set). For their size they've always been surprisingly tough to kill.

I believe that was toned down in the revised edition of the books.

Which makes feasibly having to tone it down even further for RRT that much funnier.

As I've pointed out, the 'fluff' and the 'crunch' don't line up. Yes, they're supposed to be a last ditch effort piece of survival gear for downed pilots, but we had an entire series showcasing a handful of them in guerrilla action against a vastly superior force, and while fleeing/hiding were pertinent, when it came time to throw down, they certainly kicked some ass, because plot armour/heroes/good guys fighting back/whatever.

Basically it's the X-Wing/TIE Fighter standard; the 'good guys' have surprisingly tough units versus a swarm of imperial/zerg/zentraedi/whatever individually weaker units, but a lot of the series focused on the 'teeny tiny not really supposed to be front line battle gear' units so they shone and have importance beyond their role/size.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 13:38:54


Post by: Albertorius


 Forar wrote:
Basically it's the X-Wing/TIE Fighter standard; the 'good guys' have surprisingly tough units versus a swarm of imperial/zerg/zentraedi/whatever individually weaker units, but a lot of the series focused on the 'teeny tiny not really supposed to be front line battle gear' units so they shone and have importance beyond their role/size.

Even more reasons to do a "zoomed-in" game for that ones alone, IMHO.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 13:42:21


Post by: Forar


 Albertorius wrote:
That's another thing: IIRC, a cyclone bike had a laser gun and a couple of disposable mini missiles, didn't they? Whereas each Regult battle pod has half a dozen laser guns, each as big as the whole cyclone... I don't think 2 stands should have a bit less firepower than 6 battlepods: I think 1 stand might have as much firepower as a single battlepod, tops.


That's technology for ya; often getting better and smaller at the same time (at least until we all decide we want half a laptop screen on our phones).

If there was a 4th part of the Robotech saga they'd probably need to be piloted by children and have 10,000 MDC and hit hard enough to crack moons in half.

... which is basically Dragonball Z. And I should probably stop giving them ideas.

 Albertorius wrote:
 Forar wrote:
Basically it's the X-Wing/TIE Fighter standard; the 'good guys' have surprisingly tough units versus a swarm of imperial/zerg/zentraedi/whatever individually weaker units, but a lot of the series focused on the 'teeny tiny not really supposed to be front line battle gear' units so they shone and have importance beyond their role/size.

Even more reasons to do a "zoomed-in" game for that ones alone, IMHO.


Oh, I'm a fan of there being a skirmish game with a variety of Invid opponents and Cyclones at a larger scale, but as part of RRT I can see why having massive Alphas and Betas is an issue.

Which brings us full circle to the elegance of Warboss' sliding scale for the table top.

PB is years away from later series, even if they remain profitable, I have to imagine they're a decade away from such a thing, and then it becomes a question/race between whether or not they can even justify staying with minis in the first place.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 13:55:05


Post by: Mike1975


The Cyclones are so small that a single shot from most weapons is huge compared to their body size so to help make up the difference I also made it so that cyclones and normal infantry cannot Roll with Impact. The problem is controlling the power creep from the RPG which these will be based on and have good justification. They did reduce the MDC on the Monster so there is some precedent.

Keep in mind that most of the firepower comes from the arm missiles. If you look at the Rand Type Cyclone each one does like 1 or 2 points and has a really short range. I hope that will balance things out. One Regult Squad should be about the same cost as a Cyclone Squadron. If they got in close it should be a good fight. At long range the Pods could snipe the Cyclones to death pretty easily. Up close the tables could turn.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea is that if you get a hit on a cyclone it's much more likely to go pop, but you need to hit first.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:11:54


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
The Cyclones are so small that a single shot from most weapons is huge compared to their body size so to help make up the difference I also made it so that cyclones and normal infantry cannot Roll with Impact.

Actually, I'd say that's even more reason to roll them in into a full unit statline instead of tracking each one separately. And actually, I'd say they have more reasons to be able to roll with the impact, not less (being so tiny it will be a bitch to actually hit them, they are very mobile, they can take cover in anything, the moment you actually shoot them they're in another place... they write themselves).

The problem is controlling the power creep from the RPG which these will be based on and have good justification. They did reduce the MDC on the Monster so there is some precedent.

The problem is looking at the RPG at all. Stop doing that.

Keep in mind that most of the firepower comes from the arm missiles. If you look at the Rand Type Cyclone each one does like 1 or 2 points and has a really short range. I hope that will balance things out. One Regult Squad should be about the same cost as a Cyclone Squadron. If they got in close it should be a good fight. At long range the Pods could snipe the Cyclones to death pretty easily. Up close the tables could turn.

Gonig by logic, arm missiles should be 1) mini missiles at best and 2) one-shot. So they probably should be able to shoot them as a one shot version of one of the missile bays from a Spartan destroid, or something like that (or the mini missiles from a FAST pack, for example).

The idea is that if you get a hit on a cyclone it's much more likely to go pop, but you need to hit first.

But that's not what the units as they are in your rules are. Yo've stated them, each one, as units tougher than Regults (and you have 4 per base, so they take as much space as one and are waaay easier to hide) that get free dodges.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:32:28


Post by: Mike1975


I'm forced to use the RPG, that is the basis for all the stats and the license. So I can tweak, if I can justify it.

Again, I have cyclone and doing one per stand takes a lot of space on the table. At the very least I'd say two per stand.

The arms each had 2 missiles. They were only mini-missiles so they only do 2 points each. At most that is 4 points from a single Cyclone and then they have to use something else. The Saber Cyclones with the chest missiles are the main firepower. Cyclones need to hope to shoot out the eye on any Invid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have statted them out like the cartoon....I can't justify dropping the MDC more than maybe one more point from the RPG. I have to balance all 3; cartoon, RPG, and Minis-Game playability.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:45:36


Post by: Albertorius


Well, as long as those aren't official stats I'd say you could do whatever you want with them. You aren't "forced" to do anything unless you're being paid by Palladium and you stats are meant for the official game.

And you won't need to worry about official stats for at least one more year, so...

As to statting them as the cartoon... no Cyclone interacted with a Regult battlepod (or anything out of Mospeada) in the cartoon that I'm aware of, so I can't see how could you do that.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:46:20


Post by: warboss


My gut is that at 6mm they should be a single statline with one damage track (not sure of the amount of the MDC though.. definitely not 4.. maybe 2 rpg models worth?) and a couple of command points to simulate the multiple models present but with a special rule that that they can refire any weapon with a command point (is that rapid fire?) and a vulnerability to blast weapons. I do like your idea of not having the dodge cost a command point to simulate the autododge.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:48:37


Post by: Albertorius


 warboss wrote:
My gut is that at 6mm they should be a single statline with one damage track (not sure of the amount of the MDC though.. definitely not 4.. maybe 2 rpg models worth?) and a couple of command points to simulate the multiple models present but with a special rule that that they can refire any weapon with a command point (is that rapid fire?) and a vulnerability to blast weapons. I do like your idea of not having the dodge cost a command point to simulate the autododge.

At the very least it would certainly be easier than needing to track individual minis in a base, that much is for sure.

Anyways! Wave 2.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:49:33


Post by: Mike1975


The idea is to work with something that PB will use. My First Gen stats were close enough that they thought they had a mole. If we can test these and make sure they work well I have a better chance that PB will accept something we all approve or at least are happy with then letting them struggle through it themselves and crossing my fingers.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:51:09


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
The idea is to work with something that PB will use. My First Gen stats were close enough that they thought they had a mole. If we can test these and make sure they work well I have a better chance that PB will accept something we all approve or at least are happy with then letting them struggle through it themselves and crossing my fingers.

I at least don't know what they will use. I don't believe they are forced by their contract to follow their own RPG stats mindlessly, so I simply don't think they need to do it. They might want to do it because it's easier for them, though.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 14:55:52


Post by: Mike1975


When I was poking my head in and they had me as part of a few conference calls....the RPG stats were important. All the mecha MDC except the Monster is identical to the RPG/25 and the weapons do the same as the Max in the RPG/20. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to convert. Since this is under the RPG license it is a requirement to avoid potential legal issues.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Monster also has a very high DF to justify the lower MDC. The higher DF is like a representation of thicker armor.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 15:07:34


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
When I was poking my head in and they had me as part of a few conference calls....the RPG stats were important. All the mecha MDC except the Monster is identical to the RPG/25 and the weapons do the same as the Max in the RPG/20. That is one of the reasons it was so easy to convert. Since this is under the RPG license it is a requirement to avoid potential legal issues.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Monster also has a very high DF to justify the lower MDC. The higher DF is like a representation of thicker armor.

Have you heard/seen/whatever that as an actual statement of the license, or you're just inferring? Because to me it looks more like a "path of least resistance" case, TBH, rather than contractual enforcement.

And even if it is indeed contractual enforcement... what if they someday want to change the RPG stats, then? Would they be obligated to cross change them for RRT, too? That sounds mind-blowing stupid, even more than usual.

Also, if they've been able to change it for the Monster because reasons, they could do the same for basically anything. They're just choosing not to.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 15:34:46


Post by: Mike1975


I've not seen actual contracts or anything but from the conference calls that I have been on that was part of the concerns/discussion.

Again changes from RPG conversions are very small....and usually require justification so that if any question comes up it can be explained why the change. The only change was a few SPD stats and the Monster having the MDC reduced but having a high DF.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Considering that the RRT is in fact supposedly an extension of the RPG first and a minis wargame second, it makes sense.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 15:37:36


Post by: Merijeek


 Albertorius wrote:

Have you heard/seen/whatever that as an actual statement of the license, or you're just inferring? Because to me it looks more like a "path of least resistance" case, TBH, rather than contractual enforcement.


Keep in mind that PB wasn't allowed to do conventional units 'because of the license' up until Simbieda realized that Wave Two wouldn't happen without some Hail Mary Passes.

And now, oops, turns out that they can do them. So they're going to take a cut of someone else doing them.

Their license is so incredibly, awesomely, specific on some things, but "subcontracting another seller" is, apparently, something that Harmony Gold overlooked.

So, what's more believable? The scenario I just gave, or Simbieda lying yet again?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 15:45:34


Post by: Talizvar


For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.

If there was any leeway for tweaking I would look at them in a similar way as "proto-mechs" in Battletech and not so much as a troop stat-line.

I must admit my first Robotech anything was a cyclone figure (metal and plastic) a long time ago, it was $20 brand new way back when:
.

<sigh> I did like cyclones and the Alphas, Beta's not so much but when they linked that was a huge ship. Ah well, Palladium: I may still remain stubborn on not going for this.

Wave the heck 2 you! "Nothing to see here" indeed.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 15:47:26


Post by: Mike1975


 Talizvar wrote:
For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.

If there was any leeway for tweaking I would look at them in a similar way as "proto-mechs" in Battletech and not so much as a troop stat-line.

I must admit my first Robotech anything was a cyclone figure (metal and plastic) a long time ago, it was $20 brand new way back when:
.

<sigh> I did like cyclones and the Alphas, Beta's not so much but when they linked that was a huge ship. Ah well, Palladium: I may still remain stubborn on not going for this.

Wave the heck 2 you! "Nothing to see here" indeed.


I've had the mechanic written down for a while now. Every unit, MDC, Weapon, etc.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 15:51:10


Post by: warboss


 Albertorius wrote:
what if they someday want to change the RPG stats, then? Would they be obligated to cross change them for RRT, too?


While not technically impossible, the idea of Palladium updating their RPG is almost there. It took them 7 years of not having the license and relaunching the entire brand to tweak some stats to use 98% of the same rules with. I think we're safe from them updating the RPG for many years to come. Their chance to truly update the rules, stats, and look of the RPG has sadly come and gone.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 16:33:31


Post by: Merijeek


 Talizvar wrote:
For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.


That's the problem, of course. The RPG books were idiotic on a lot of things, but especially the Cyclones.

A Macross VF had, what, 350 Main Body MDC? A cyclone has, what? 200MDC? 250MDC?

Garbage in, garbage out.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 17:03:00


Post by: warboss


Merijeek wrote:
 Talizvar wrote:
For consistency, you would need to look at the mechanic of how each unit was converted to RRT and consistently apply it to the cyclones. I REALLY need to get my RPG books back from my brother to look into this.


That's the problem, of course. The RPG books were idiotic on a lot of things, but especially the Cyclones.

A Macross VF had, what, 350 Main Body MDC? A cyclone has, what? 200MDC? 250MDC?

Garbage in, garbage out.


Agreed. For clarity, the current cyclones have roughly 140-250ish depending on the model. The "light" and "saber" series ones are under 150 and fairly reasonable for the RPG (still powerful for their size when you add in the autododge but on the upper edge of reasonable). It's only when you get to the battler version (with the forearm rockets) and the "super" version that they go right past light speed to ludicrous speed. Of course, in the first edition the VF-1 was 250mdc and the cyclone battler was 200 IIRC so they previously went to plaid... improvement, right?!?

Another issue for balance is their firepower. The standard hand weapon of a battler cyclone does 1d6x10 damage per burst attack and has a 4,000ft range whereas the cannon on the alpha that is BIGGER than the whole damn cyclone does exactly the same. Lol... balance!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 18:28:07


Post by: Swabby


This whole cyclone debate is really about unrealistic expectations due to inflated stats in the RPG.

In many ways I find it hilarious that the decision to make them extremely overpowered is coming home to roost 30 years later.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 18:30:06


Post by: Merijeek


Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it.

...and all that comes from "having to" base it off the RPG books. Which I find to almost certainly be a load of crap.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 18:52:09


Post by: Forar


At 20 points per base, I wonder how the game would handle them 'out-swarming the swarm'. The cheapest RDF squads are 50 points if I'm not mistaken (6 per 100 point game).

Laying down 15 Cyclone teams would be 60 Command points, and have a combined MDC of 360, but their shorter range and reduced killing power could make them a slog.

Basically, what purpose would they play in the game, would they do it well enough to justify all this debate (not to mention swapping scales, sliding or otherwise), and most importantly would they be fun to play/play against?

I suppose they could be objective takers/holders and a nightmare if they had a 'walk through buildings and be protected by them' rules in place (and buildings didn't die if mechs looked at them funny).

Plus I wonder if the Saber Cyclones will get the "parry any (energy?) attack and take zero damage" ability.

I abused the gak out of that in my Rifts campaign.

And I agree that it's just another aspect of fun distractions, but there's only so many times one can ask about Wave Two.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 18:59:37


Post by: warboss


For those casual readers who are wondering what the fuss is about, this pic should illustrate it.



It's kind of like in 40K where you take a single tactical marine and he is tougher, more maneuverable, and has longer ranged weapons than a Reaver titan... oh, wait, yeah, that's not the case there.

I know Zentraedi were not outfitted with the best tech and the cyclone is advanced armor but unless their battle pods were made from the discarded Masters' candy wrappers and the cyclone is from Wolverine's Weapon X nail clippings then we have a bit of a balance and perception issue for a tabletop minis game.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 19:16:40


Post by: Merijeek


Nice battelpod paint job, though.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 19:21:11


Post by: Mike1975


Guys, I am soliciting some help. I want some 6mm and 10mm infantry and stuff if you have them in some pics next to some RRT stuff.. Also if you have pics of some of the blobs that are the 3D Printed stuff that you can add that would be great. I think that part of the issue is the misconception of the detail that 6mm infantry can have due to the horrible 3D ones that have been made.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 19:44:46


Post by: Swabby


I think you are on to something mike. The low res 3d prints and lack of a paint job are certainly a factor.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:00:37


Post by: Merijeek


Almost certainly.

And?

Want to know about the quality of miniatures that can be produced for human-sized 6mm troops? They're everywhere. No need to find ones that look like armored guys with tires on their backs.

Maybe the people making the decisions could spend a couple minutes actually looking at other companies' products to see what can be done?

Nah. Too much sense in that idea.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:19:07


Post by: paulson games


 Mike1975 wrote:
Guys, I am soliciting some help. I want some 6mm and 10mm infantry and stuff if you have them in some pics next to some RRT stuff.. Also if you have pics of some of the blobs that are the 3D Printed stuff that you can add that would be great. I think that part of the issue is the misconception of the detail that 6mm infantry can have due to the horrible 3D ones that have been made.


Is it any worse than the 3d printed Spartan? Put the 3d prints next to the original spartan-gate model and problem solved as they will both look bad


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:22:21


Post by: Talizvar


 paulson games wrote:
Is it any worse than the 3d printed Spartan? Put the 3d prints next to the original spartan-gate model and problem solved as they will both look bad
Well if you are going to be snarky about it, you should sculpt something and show them how it's done! Oh yeah, you had done that...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:27:11


Post by: paulson games


I have my own cyclones and invid Not going to post them though as they might be confused with Palladiums stuff again, my macross sculpts that Maz painted still keep popping up in RRT threads as an example of RRT minis lol. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up for Mospeada,


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:34:16


Post by: warboss


 paulson games wrote:
I have my own cyclones and invid Not going to post them though as they might be confused with Palladiums stuff again, my macross sculpts that Maz painted still keep popping up in RRT threads as an example of RRT minis lol. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up for Mospeada,


What scale did you choose for the Mospeada stuff?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:36:14


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
Guys, I am soliciting some help. I want some 6mm and 10mm infantry and stuff if you have them in some pics next to some RRT stuff.. Also if you have pics of some of the blobs that are the 3D Printed stuff that you can add that would be great. I think that part of the issue is the misconception of the detail that 6mm infantry can have due to the horrible 3D ones that have been made.


These are 6mm Space Marines. Although I think those are smaller than the shown 6mm Cyclones.



Here you can see a lot of modern 6mm 1 piece sculpts:

http://www.onslaughtmini.com/

By way of example:



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 20:41:21


Post by: paulson games


Mostly 10mm. Although I've also been toying with some 1/48 invid and cyclones as they are pretty close in size to 25-28mm gaming models. I'd use them for a skirmish game rather than mass battles. Doing the Alphas and Betas in that scale gets really expensive to print so I've held off on those plus they don't really fit into a skirmish game as it'd be like bringing in a titan.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 23:48:52


Post by: warboss


 paulson games wrote:
Mostly 10mm. Although I've also been toying with some 1/48 invid and cyclones as they are pretty close in size to 25-28mm gaming models. I'd use them for a skirmish game rather than mass battles. Doing the Alphas and Betas in that scale gets really expensive to print so I've held off on those plus they don't really fit into a skirmish game as it'd be like bringing in a titan.


You're one step ahead of palladium yet again. They're apparently considering the 15mm scale for a possible upcoming skirmish game.. because.. you know.. there are so many skirmish games at 15mm out there. They're stepping into a very similar pile of crap (but this one curls to the left!) by not considering the ramifications of that scale. If the focus of the skirmish game is on cyclones and infantry with some bigger things as showpiece items you take one of (like TAGs in infinity), I don't see 15mm as the best choice. 15mm is solidly a mass battle scale for obvious reasons. If they wanted to do a mass battle game at 15mm, they should have considered that 2-3 years ago instead. I would have backed that as well. From a quick size comparison check, 15mm matches up closely to the 1/100 toys out there. If they switch at this point, I'll just buy those VF-1s for my skirmish fix. My local store can order crap like that so they'll get a cut.. harmony gold will get their pound of flesh... and I get fully painted and poseable minis that transform with less effort necessary then with even X-wing. It's a win-win-win situation for everyone!...except Palladium.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 23:51:44


Post by: JohnHwangDD


So it'll be like Battlefront getting the lunch eaten by PSC, but on day one.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 23:53:52


Post by: totalfailure


I guess Palladium's smokescreen has been most successful, seeing all the discussion of scale here, when wave 2 and its MIA status is the only thing that really matters. I see notorious sell out Bad Syntax has returned to haunt some of the Kickstarter upstate discussions, too.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/10 23:56:55


Post by: JohnHwangDD


We need a Cato, to remind Palladium that Wave 2 must be produced in the same way that "Carthago delenda est!"


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 00:13:00


Post by: warboss


 totalfailure wrote:
I guess Palladium's smokescreen has been most successful, seeing all the discussion of scale here, when wave 2 and its MIA status is the only thing that really matters. I see notorious sell out Bad Syntax has returned to haunt some of the Kickstarter upstate discussions, too.


The (possible) difference is that we *might* be able to sway them away from the wrong course with the scale debacle whereas Wave 2 is frankly out of our hands. Whatever it is that they're doing or not doing with it, we have no real power to effect change.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 02:11:59


Post by: JohnHwangDD


We could at least get PB to tell us WTF they're doing with Wave 2.

Whether they have substantially reduced parts count a la Kevin's plan from the beginning. Whether the detail is comparable to what was previously shared. Etc.

We could demand that they show that it's not all smoke, with some production models. Maybe even get a pro to assemble them.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 02:27:43


Post by: Fireflyjmh


As others have stated the most disappointing thing was the complete lack of anything useful regarding Wave 2. I want my super veritechs!!!

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 02:40:54


Post by: warboss


The plan as advertised before they took our money was to have all three eras compatible both in rules and scale so you could have games where a faction from one fights a faction from another like zentraedi vs southern cross. The "questions" they're posing now is to change both the scale and the rules to be not compatible (going from a 6mm mass battle game to a 15mm skirmish game). They already have our money and it isn't convienent anymore for them to follow through on their promises apparently yet again.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 02:47:30


Post by: Lynx7725


 Fireflyjmh wrote:

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.

In the Update Kevin specifically mentioned Zent vs. Invid battles. That's pretty much cross-generation. And if they really don't intend the generations to be at least compatible, then the issue of 6mm vs. 15mm that Kevin raised in his update won't really be relevant to bring up.

(Of course, that's purporting that PB has a overall product plan, which we know is pretty much a fallacy...)

TBH if PB wants to run RRT as an RPG supplement then run it as a supplement. If they want to smokescreen it while doing it as a wargame to avoid licensing issues then there are better ways to do it. Trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole just leads to a lot of bruising.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 03:31:11


Post by: Mike1975


 Fireflyjmh wrote:
As others have stated the most disappointing thing was the complete lack of anything useful regarding Wave 2. I want my super veritechs!!!

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.


Why would anyone on their right mind do 200 points for one faction in a game be worth more or less than 200 for another faction? Where did that come from?

Besides, if you want to test anything I have some rules already done based on the RPG stats just like what we already know and you can look at those anytime. Link is on my sig.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 03:34:20


Post by: Mike1975


 Lynx7725 wrote:
 Fireflyjmh wrote:

That being said, one thing I haven't seen discussed is whether they intended to have the three generations interact in the game. In other words, would 200pts of Destroids be able to match against 200pts of Robotech Masters or 200pts of Invid? As a long time Flames of War tournament player the three eras Battlefront divided WWII into do not interact with one another (not because of scale, its all 15mm).

I think people assumed the three Generations would work together, but if the plan was never to have them compatible with one another then the scale doesn't matter at all. In my opinion this is largely meaningless till I see Wave two at my house.

In the Update Kevin specifically mentioned Zent vs. Invid battles. That's pretty much cross-generation. And if they really don't intend the generations to be at least compatible, then the issue of 6mm vs. 15mm that Kevin raised in his update won't really be relevant to bring up.

(Of course, that's purporting that PB has a overall product plan, which we know is pretty much a fallacy...)

TBH if PB wants to run RRT as an RPG supplement then run it as a supplement. If they want to smokescreen it while doing it as a wargame to avoid licensing issues then there are better ways to do it. Trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole just leads to a lot of bruising.


I think with all the cheap 3D printed, less than 1cm high, cyclones and more that he has seen, done by people in their basements, has gone to his head and he does not realize that there is a leap in quality from something like that and something a good 6mm modeler can do.....

What would something like this make you think?

[Thumb - 11401400_936470913061300_7955942034176457938_n.jpg]


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 03:37:34


Post by: Mike1975


Vs these with a better paint job, which are better quality 3D vs something GHQ might make.....

[Thumb - GroupShot1.jpg]
[Thumb - N125-b.jpg]


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 04:12:37


Post by: Lynx7725


 Mike1975 wrote:

I think with all the cheap 3D printed, less than 1cm high, cyclones and more that he has seen, done by people in their basements, has gone to his head and he does not realize that there is a leap in quality from something like that and something a good 6mm modeler can do.....

What would something like this make you think?

I work with enough small scale to know what's possible.. both FoW infantry and HGB infantry are great at 10mm/ 15mm. 6mm isn't great for infantry sculpt, but nobody is expecting great art pieces of infantry at 6mm. It's physically difficult to do and individual unit perfection is not the point of that scale -- sweeping epic battle scenes is. Even with the best 6mm sculptor/ modeler, caster and artist on the case, there's a point where 6mm just doesn't have the physical resolution to do anything.

Thing is, I take up 6mm when I want to see whole companies slug each other across the table. Not to ooh and ahh over details of infantry at that scale. (Mecha maybe, but infantry?) Yes, good companies can squeeze very good infantry sculpts at 6mm, but that's not the point for me...

It's just frustrating. 6mm is good for what they have now (Macross) and has great potential for the other series -- and I'm fine with sliding scale or fudging things a bit. The argument they are putting across is just bad though. Southern Cross doesn't really have a problem with 6mm, we might gain a bit to go to 10mm but 15mm is just creating issues. The problem with New Generations at 6mm is really only the Cyclone, and going 15mm will create issues with other mecha. So why shoot the two whole ranges just because you got one unit that breaks things? Conventional wisdom say to find a way to deal with that outlier. If they really can't find a good way to balance things, then I'm ok with different scale for just the Cyclones, but keep everything else the same.

On top of that, we've already seen arguments here that the RRT ruleset right now doesn't deal well with the guerrilla warfare shown in New Generations. Instead of trying to ram this peg into that hole the hard way, it's better IMO just to spawn off a new line in the distant future with minis in the right scale to do guerrilla warfare justice. My feel, 15mm or 28mm, preference going to 28mm simply for compatibility across systems. 15mm is a possibility because you might want to do slightly "bigger" Zent vs. Invid fights, but I think it's simply better to concentrate on the triumvirate of REF survivors, Invids and Human post-apocalpyse gangers.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 04:42:27


Post by: Mike1975


 Lynx7725 wrote:
 Mike1975 wrote:

I think with all the cheap 3D printed, less than 1cm high, cyclones and more that he has seen, done by people in their basements, has gone to his head and he does not realize that there is a leap in quality from something like that and something a good 6mm modeler can do.....

What would something like this make you think?

I work with enough small scale to know what's possible.. both FoW infantry and HGB infantry are great at 10mm/ 15mm. 6mm isn't great for infantry sculpt, but nobody is expecting great art pieces of infantry at 6mm. It's physically difficult to do and individual unit perfection is not the point of that scale -- sweeping epic battle scenes is. Even with the best 6mm sculptor/ modeler, caster and artist on the case, there's a point where 6mm just doesn't have the physical resolution to do anything.

Thing is, I take up 6mm when I want to see whole companies slug each other across the table. Not to ooh and ahh over details of infantry at that scale. (Mecha maybe, but infantry?) Yes, good companies can squeeze very good infantry sculpts at 6mm, but that's not the point for me...

It's just frustrating. 6mm is good for what they have now (Macross) and has great potential for the other series -- and I'm fine with sliding scale or fudging things a bit. The argument they are putting across is just bad though. Southern Cross doesn't really have a problem with 6mm, we might gain a bit to go to 10mm but 15mm is just creating issues. The problem with New Generations at 6mm is really only the Cyclone, and going 15mm will create issues with other mecha. So why shoot the two whole ranges just because you got one unit that breaks things? Conventional wisdom say to find a way to deal with that outlier. If they really can't find a good way to balance things, then I'm ok with different scale for just the Cyclones, but keep everything else the same.

On top of that, we've already seen arguments here that the RRT ruleset right now doesn't deal well with the guerrilla warfare shown in New Generations. Instead of trying to ram this peg into that hole the hard way, it's better IMO just to spawn off a new line in the distant future with minis in the right scale to do guerrilla warfare justice. My feel, 15mm or 28mm, preference going to 28mm simply for compatibility across systems. 15mm is a possibility because you might want to do slightly "bigger" Zent vs. Invid fights, but I think it's simply better to concentrate on the triumvirate of REF survivors, Invids and Human post-apocalpyse gangers.


On that we do agree, RRT is not designed for Skirmish level battles and it would be stupid to change to 15mm and expect large scale battles with minis that will now cost 3x as much and not fit as well on the table


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 04:46:46


Post by: Stormonu


Mike, the problem is, we know Kevin would go with the cheap stuff - because, well, that means they get to keep more money.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 05:44:49


Post by: Lynx7725


An irony I just realised is that we are talking about how to make infantry work in RRT for 6mm (1/285), when there is already a precedent... in Battletech and their battle armour, a game which had to redo a good portion of their original Mech lineup precisely because of HG Robotech shenanigans.

CBT Battle armour would actually be very close to Cyclone, at least the slimmer ones. Anybody has pics of CBT battle armour squads against old Unseen Warhammers, Riflemans, etc? That'd actually be a solid pic for comparison purposes. Perhaps PB can approach Ironwind to see how it's done.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 12:35:28


Post by: Mike1975


 Stormonu wrote:
Mike, the problem is, we know Kevin would go with the cheap stuff - because, well, that means they get to keep more money.


Which is actually to our advantage here. Doing 15mm means a higher selling price but also a MUCH bigger investment in setting up the molds, designing the minis etc. There is a good reason 15mm minis are more expensive. Now you are talking $2 per cyclone going to $15 or more per pair of them.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 12:36:19


Post by: Mike1975


 Lynx7725 wrote:
An irony I just realised is that we are talking about how to make infantry work in RRT for 6mm (1/285), when there is already a precedent... in Battletech and their battle armour, a game which had to redo a good portion of their original Mech lineup precisely because of HG Robotech shenanigans.

CBT Battle armour would actually be very close to Cyclone, at least the slimmer ones. Anybody has pics of CBT battle armour squads against old Unseen Warhammers, Riflemans, etc? That'd actually be a solid pic for comparison purposes. Perhaps PB can approach Ironwind to see how it's done.


Yes we do....

[Thumb - 1185561_651072678267793_1884498483_n.jpg]
[Thumb - 11377190_935965803111811_3188592181798126617_n.jpg]


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 12:48:19


Post by: Albertorius


 Mike1975 wrote:
Yes we do....

Those Battle Armors are from the Mechwarrior clicky game, which is 1/144 IIRC (12mm), about double the size of the CBT ones. The SMs are 6mm, though.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 13:44:56


Post by: Mike1975


Yeah, I bought a ton of the Clicky tech ones to make cyclones with.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 13:50:17


Post by: warboss


 Mike1975 wrote:
On that we do agree, RRT is not designed for Skirmish level battles and it would be stupid to change to 15mm and expect large scale battles with minis that will now cost 3x as much and not fit as well on the table


Have you actually tried recently (since the game actually released) using the old skirmish army rules? I of course don't mean the watered down crap that made it into the rulebook. It seems like it would work just as well for a skirmish game with mecha at that scale who just want to fit the gameplay in under an hour. I agree that it doesn't make sense at all for a 6mm infantry centric skirmish game though but if your "standard" unit that you're basing the game around is a 40ft tall robot then I think it works fine (or at least as fine as the normal rules do). Do things die quickly? Sure.. but I don't think most folks want to spend 2-4 hours playing a skirmish scenario. My biggest experience with skirmish games was the old D&D prepainted minis and Star Wars minis and it was quite nice to set up, play, and be at the next game table in 60-90 minutes.



I think the grey models on a rectangular bar 2nd to the left on the bottom pic are 40k epic space marines but I'm not sure about the rest. Are the bikes and the power armor guys with heavy gear style double pipe backpacks all from mechyclix? If they are mechyclix, I think that size for cyclones would be perfect for a mass battle game whereas the space marines are a bit too small for my tastes. Can you customize each cyclone to "mouthwatering" detail? No, but they're detailed (and probably would be even more detailed with normal plastic instead of PVC) one piece minis that you can see what they are at a glance and the massive size difference is still evident immediately at a glance even though they're likely 50%-80% larger than they should be at 6mm. You should post that over on the palladium forums where we know at least one employee is occasionally watching.

Oh, and who ever Kryptt is here on dakka, fanfriend-dom doesn't work that way! You can't declare yourself one but instead have to be chosen by the Siembiedassiah.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 15:49:45


Post by: Mike1975


Yeah, Clickytech Purifiers in grey and red
40k Imp Jump Troops in the group of 5 in the middle
The bikes are also 40k Imperials


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 16:50:48


Post by: warboss


Thanks for the clarification. Have you tried to use the old skirmish rules as posted during the KS or has anyone else reading the thread? I'm curious to see how that would go with the same rules except army creation. IIRC, you skip the core card and pick a support card to start with and add the special and second support as needed/wanted. It makes for smaller squads and I'm curious to see if it plays in around an hour or so. I guess you could try to make the same thing by just using a single core card with all the fixings instead but you'd end up with larger squads (with whatever ramifications that has) as well as less "fancy" upgrade models.

Also, for those who have assembled veritechs, are the arms for guardian mode and battloid mode interchangeable? Is there a point or are the poses pretty much the same for both?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 17:51:20


Post by: Mike1975


I have not used the "Official" skirmish rules since they were flawed. Can't remember if it was fixed later. Instead of just 2 squad cards I had played with less and 100 points and using squads only. No squadrons. Worked out pretty well. You just get a lot less Command Points in since you won't have VF-1J's. Then I made my own VF-1J squad card and it worked out fine.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 18:00:19


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I'm just gonna put this out there...

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/06/crowdfunding-project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception

Anybody want to share this with PB?

Maybe they should!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 18:04:01


Post by: Noir


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
We could at least get PB to tell us WTF they're doing with Wave 2.



What part of any of this makes you think that, the is a real question. As up till now they have proven this false.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 18:16:50


Post by: warboss


Ah, thanks. I took a peek again at your rules linked in your sig. They look to be a very useful resource so thanks. I may attempt to build some valkyries next week as my tau project has stalled due to a lack of bits parts online that I need for the past week.

I know the supers aren't out yet as models but have you tried out the Super VF-1R full squad? I'm not sure if it is just a waste of points (and precious parts) or if that extra MDC and speed is worth all the points. With two supers supposedly coming in 20XX and another two super parts in the VF-1D add on I should be able to make a full squad since they're all just a head swap. That would make a nice "elite" unit to field that plays noticeably differently than normal and even other super veritechs.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 18:19:20


Post by: Balance


 Mike1975 wrote:

Why would anyone on their right mind do 200 points for one faction in a game be worth more or less than 200 for another faction? Where did that come from?


I'm not saying it's the right thing for a Robotech Game or a WWII game, but that's basically what Flames of War does. All stats are noted as Early War, Later War, or Mid War (plus the spin-offs for other wars, and I'm not sure how the Pacific stuff fits in?) 1,000 points of Early War is not designed to be compatible with 1,000 points of Late War and might be extremely broken... Evens stats change for units that exist across the eras. It makes sense, in their case, because they don't consider it to make sense to have an early-war French tank company fighting a late-war British Anti-Tank Infantry Company or similar.

I could see that for RRT, especially if there's some weird licensing term that forbid inter-era play being supported by the devs. This seems unlikely, but I've heard Harmony Gold is 'interesting' to deal with. I kind of hope there was some thought about this with earlier game design... The RPG, for example, always seemed like they designed it around making whatever mecha the PCs were expected to use roughly so tough, then designing around that. Which led to the previously discussed Cyclones that are more heavily armored and armed than Battlepods that dwarf them...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 18:30:18


Post by: warboss


 Balance wrote:
 Mike1975 wrote:

Why would anyone on their right mind do 200 points for one faction in a game be worth more or less than 200 for another faction? Where did that come from?


I'm not saying it's the right thing for a Robotech Game or a WWII game, but that's basically what Flames of War does. All stats are noted as Early War, Later War, or Mid War (plus the spin-offs for other wars, and I'm not sure how the Pacific stuff fits in?) 1,000 points of Early War is not designed to be compatible with 1,000 points of Late War and might be extremely broken... Evens stats change for units that exist across the eras. It makes sense, in their case, because they don't consider it to make sense to have an early-war French tank company fighting a late-war British Anti-Tank Infantry Company or similar.

I could see that for RRT, especially if there's some weird licensing term that forbid inter-era play being supported by the devs. This seems unlikely, but I've heard Harmony Gold is 'interesting' to deal with. I kind of hope there was some thought about this with earlier game design... The RPG, for example, always seemed like they designed it around making whatever mecha the PCs were expected to use roughly so tough, then designing around that. Which led to the previously discussed Cyclones that are more heavily armored and armed than Battlepods that dwarf them...


I know it exists for FOW but so do other players going into that established game. The opposite is true here. We were told that they're planning on working on all three eras and that they've chosen 6mm; I've seen those quotes personally on the internet when I did a search (they're in the Craven Games and MTV Geek interviews). I haven't been able to find the exact quote where they said that all three eras would be playable against each other but admittedly I haven't combed every murmur and press release from during and directly before/after the kickstarter nor their kickstarter comments made by the ninjas at the time. If they had started out by saying it wouldn't be the case and that you wouldn't be able to cross-era battle and that subsequent eras would be at a different scale, I'd have accepted their decision and be defending it right now.. but they didn't. At best, they "hinted" otherwise (and probably flatout said it somewhere). It wouldn't have affected my pledge as I frankly pledged for the (now abandoned) skirmish level of game but it did raise expectations that they're now probably going to dash. There also is no reason that FOW couldn't restat everything to make them compatible to a degree but also the figs in FOW have a fair amount of cross compatibility as well. I'm guessing that the infantry (except for maybe upgrades) are still usable from early to late war if you're playing a country that was active in both (like the UK or Germany) and some vehicles came through as well. That won't be the case with this. The other very important difference is that FOW has more than two real factions per era that you can play unlike Robotech. The cross-era play was supposed to give players the model and playstyle variety that it would otherwise lack.

In any case, they've dug yet another hole for themselves by simply not being open, honest, and upfront from the beginning which frankly seems to be the only thing they know how to do (other than apologize and promise to do better next time). They promise the moon, muddy the waters with vague statements, and then dash hopes at the expense of their customers. If there is something in their license that prevents it, they seemingly just recently found out about it like with the sudden ability to make vehicles that they previously said they couldn't or Harmony Gold changed their mind. In the RPG, I believe they have all three eras together in the New Gen book via the "frankenmecha" or some such where they bolt on stuff to earlier era mecha ala Mad Max to simulate the rundown nature of the resistance to the Invid at that point. Could the exception to that extend to minis? Possibly, but they certainly didn't mention that ever back when they were advertising the game and that all three eras would come out.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 19:09:42


Post by: Mike1975


ALL, PB should have an update on the scale up shortly....I have emailed and received an email from Kevin himself. I was trying to glean PB's intentions with the last updates and understand because it was kinda contrary to what I understood the times we had conference calls.
I really think this all came up since many want 10mm or larger for small New Generation bashes. When you are getting what you want you typically don't speak up and if you want something else you tend to speak up a lot. Those loud voices are likely what PB was hearing. The idea is that RRT is a large scale combat game. Think of it more in line with the larger battles that you've seen or the Sentinels battles from the books. Anyways, I don't want to add too much but later today we should have an update/clarification.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 19:12:54


Post by: Forar


As for the Skirmish, I occasionally give some thought to simply halving the squad sizes. Use Support Cards in place of the normal Squads, allow for 1 Special per mini-squad, cut points in half or more.

So instead of a 300 point game with up to 14 VT's on the table, you have a 150 point game with up to 7 VTs.

Where this stumbles a bit are odd number mixed units, like being unable to recreate a smaller version of some of the Zentraedi squads (like 9 pods/1 officer, and 6 pods/1 officer/1 recon). This could feasibly be attended to simply by allowing a pair of 'mini-supports'/specials/whatevers. It could also have issues with other effects that require sharing a squad with other units (less units to feasibly share with), and things like the Zentraedi ability to recover pods that die within LoS/range of an Officer's pod. Bringing back 3 Pods in a turn (~18 points worth) holds more value in a 150 point game than in a 300 point game, obviously.

Also this would dramatically change the power of upgrades, since paying (say) 10 points to enhance 4/8/24/etc mechs is more valuable than paying 10 points to enhance 1/2/4/etc mechs.

Note that this is just one dude who hasn't playtested gak brainstorming and thinking out loud. Not an ironclad and heavily tested theory. Merely a hypothesis.

If it played well, and if it were fun, it would essentially cut the figures necessary to play in half. Assuming ranges were kept the same, it'd still require a fairly large playing area.

And if a 1J card were created, Warboss would get to fly his proper Vermillion squadron! :-D

Edge cases like wanting to have a 1J/1A pair rather than two 1A's (as is found on the Support card) could be addressed similarly to how Command Destroids are handled; pay a little extra, maybe use up a 'support card slot', get improvements accordingly.

Again, just thinking out loud here. I'm not sure if it'll ever actually get tested, merely something that has been rattling around in my head for, well, a couple of years at this point. I've always been interested in the idea of smaller scale conflicts, juxtaposed against the love that many have of potentially putting hundreds of figures on the table at once.

Edit: I swear to dog, if we get a fourth fething update on this history/LE/scale string and zero info on Wave Two, I might actually have to call them and give them a piece of my mind, long distance charges be damned.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 19:26:15


Post by: Lynx7725


 Mike1975 wrote:
ALL, PB should have an update on the scale up shortly....I have emailed and received an email from Kevin himself. I was trying to glean PB's intentions with the last updates and understand because it was kinda contrary to what I understood the times we had conference calls.
I really think this all came up since many want 10mm or larger for small New Generation bashes. When you are getting what you want you typically don't speak up and if you want something else you tend to speak up a lot. Those loud voices are likely what PB was hearing. The idea is that RRT is a large scale combat game. Think of it more in line with the larger battles that you've seen or the Sentinels battles from the books. Anyways, I don't want to add too much but later today we should have an update/clarification.

*Grumble*

This just makes PB look more and more like a bunch of lost puppies being led around all over the place by people who may not know what the hell they are doing.

10mm is workable I suppose. The thing here is that regardless of the scale they eventually choose, they are going to find that Cyclones (and Invid Enforcers, I bet) are going to create a lot of issues for their gameplay. If they throw money to create bigger minis then later realise they have to rework the rules to go with the multi-infantry base approach, they might also find that smaller minis would have worked better. Then we get back to square one.. End of day, PB's priorities seem to be to achieve artistic perfection in the minis more than having a balanced delivery approach to the whole product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Forar wrote:

Edit: I swear to dog, if we get a fourth fething update on this history/LE/scale string and zero info on Wave Two, I might actually have to call them and give them a piece of my mind, long distance charges be damned.

I think it's not that they don't have anything to update, it's just that they don't have anything they think it's interesting to update. Usually by this stage it's more of small discussions with various parties about production-related items. Sometimes it's commercially confidential information, other times it's just that they are so involved that they don't realise us outsiders have no inking of what's going on.

I'm actually not so worried about Wave 2. One thing positive about the communications so far is that we know PB/ Kevin is very keen to get things moving again. The only real headache is whether they have the cold hard cash to move it through. Unfortunately, such information is also financially sensitive and can create company problems if they talk too loosely about it, so I don't expect to hear anything on that until it's way too late.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 19:35:18


Post by: warboss


 Forar wrote:

Note that this is just one dude who hasn't playtested gak brainstorming and thinking out loud. Not an ironclad and heavily tested theory. Merely a hypothesis.

If it played well, and if it were fun, it would essentially cut the figures necessary to play in half. Assuming ranges were kept the same, it'd still require a fairly large playing area.

And if a 1J card were created, Warboss would get to fly his proper Vermillion squadron! :-D



And Dakka and the Palladium forums would be a quieter place for it! As for your analysis, I find no problems with it at first glance and I have at least double your play experience. Just follow Palladium's lead and don't think about the actual math in that claim too long... (zero xp times two equals...)


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 19:35:47


Post by: Killionaire


Just do a rough logarithmic scale and be done with it. It's what FFG's doing with Star Wars Armada since the scale difference between the largest ships and smallest would otherwise be too great.

As long as you can go and say 'I can see how these 6mmish humanoids could fit in my 35mmish plane', then that's fine.

Separating 'generation's is an incredibly stupid idea gameplay wise. Else instead of 1 game with 6 factions, you then get 3 games with 2 factions each. I suppose that pleases the two people in the world who want a Genesis Climber Mospeda only game, whoever they are.

Same with not balancing for cross-generational play, as Flames of War honestly made a huge mistake with that. Even if your 'early gen' stuff is weaker than later gen, just price accordingly.

You can make incredibly detailed miniatures at those tiny scales that still capture the essence of the things they're supposed to represent. It also creates a feeling of 'Oh wow, that mecha is big!' when you compare it to the scale of Zentraedi pods or the Valkyries. Doing it otherwise would be just insane and throws out all size relationships..


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 19:36:59


Post by: warboss


 Mike1975 wrote:
ALL, PB should have an update on the scale up shortly....I have emailed and received an email from Kevin himself. I was trying to glean PB's intentions with the last updates and understand because it was kinda contrary to what I understood the times we had conference calls.
I really think this all came up since many want 10mm or larger for small New Generation bashes. When you are getting what you want you typically don't speak up and if you want something else you tend to speak up a lot. Those loud voices are likely what PB was hearing. The idea is that RRT is a large scale combat game. Think of it more in line with the larger battles that you've seen or the Sentinels battles from the books. Anyways, I don't want to add too much but later today we should have an update/clarification.


I'm curious to see what they'll say. I put in my 2 cents (both literally and physically with a phone call) for the first time direct to Palladium. I wonder if they'll also mention that obscure thing that almost no one remembers about called wave 2 as well.

As an bit of a side note, I just went to the kickstarter to try and evaluate Forar's post a bit closer regarding the skirmish rules and all the files they posted to the kickstarter like the PDF rules previews and sample force org charts as well as the embedded youtube videos are gone/404. They used to be hosted on some weird soda pop site like www.dammommasboys.com/sodapop but now come back as 404. I didn't check youtube to see if they actually yanked the videos or if kickstarter removed the links with their new tablet friendly annoying format.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 20:52:20


Post by: Forar


And another update lands;

Update #181 Jun 11 2015
More 6mm vs 15mm Thoughts


Hey, Everyone. It’s Kevin Siembieda.

This sentence from an email I recently received seems to reflect the sentiment of many of you:

“I was a bit perplexed by part of the latest update....there was a lot of trash talk on 6mm stuff.”

No trash talk of 6mm was intended whatsoever. Ironically, Palladium has NO plan nor personal desire to depart from 6mm. Nor do you have to convince me of the quality or value of a consistent 6mm (1/285th) scale.

Personally, from day one, I have always wanted to see all generations of Robotech® done in the same scale. If for no other reason than it has never been done and would be freaking awesome!

HOWEVER, we have had a number, and I mean a good number of Kickstarter backers raise the issue and ask us whether we are considering doing a larger scale for some of the smallest Robotech mecha – namely man-sized units like Southern Cross soldiers, the Invid and most notably, the Cyclones.

I thought it was a valid question. And since we have had so many people ask it, I wanted to make sure that we are still on the right path with 6mm (1/285th scale). I used myself as an example only to represent that I understood how and why those suggesting a larger scale might feel about it. AND IF that might be the way the majority of the backers and RRT supporters feel, I want to know about it NOW, not later. From a manufacturing and design point of view, as well as for wargamers, 6mm throughout seems, to all of us at Palladium, the way to go. Most of the arguments in favor of going larger were more important to collectors and those who want these figures as display pieces, which is a segment of our backers that we didn’t want to just dismiss. Thus, the discussion.

I'm just trying to make sure that Palladium gives you, our RRT Kickstarter backers, what YOU WANT. And I want you to think about it so that if and when we say yes, we’re sticking with 6mm scale, there can be no issues later when the pieces are in that scale.

So please, don’t any of you feel perplexed. But please do let us know what YOU want. That’s the entire reason for my raising the question. And I raised it in the strongest possible way so there could be no confusion or doubt. I really want YOU all to really think about what you want from these game pieces.

In fact, I made the case for 15mm as strongly as I did purely to make people really stop and think about it, rather than dismissing it out of hand. My only regret is that it seems to have made some people push back even stronger precisely because they thought I was trying to steer them in that direction.

The only reason Palladium would even consider deviating from 6mm is if this conversation suggests that the vast majority of you might want larger figures (of any size scale, really). Personally, I would be shocked if that happened.

Of course, ALL the new convention exclusives and Earth Defender figures are at 6mm (1/285th) scale. Speaking of which, we’ll be posting the stats and data for how these units function and impact combat in the RRT game for you to see. That’s coming soon.

So please really think about this, talk about it amongst yourselves and let us know your thoughts on the matter.

Wayne will post a poll, probably next week, after there has been time for everyone to think about the subject. PLEASE participate in the poll. Please only vote once, because we are only counting the actual numbers in the poll, and we want them to be accurate.

This helps Palladium in a number of ways, because it will give us an absolute true indication of what you want, but it also gives us an idea if there is a large enough interest for us to consider making both sizes available; 6mm first and maybe 10mm or 15mm later. The idea of offering two sizes in the same package, upon further consideration, is wasteful because those who have no interest in the other size may just toss them out. But unless you tell us otherwise, 6mm is what we plan for ALL RRT game pieces.

Again, I want to make clear that the only reason we are even having this discussion is out of respect for the RRT Kickstarter backers who raised it in the first place and our desire to give you the game YOU want!

– Kevin Siembieda, Publisher


*facepalm*

*halfhearted jazzhands*


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:05:03


Post by: warboss


I'm just trying to make sure that Palladium gives you, our RRT Kickstarter backers, what YOU WANT.



I thought it was obvious... new wave 2 info posted in a Kickstarter update for the first time since late February.

At least he clarified whether or not he initially planned 6mm for all eras and inter-era play at the top so I don't have to comb through all the comments, murmurs, and updates. Very minor win for me...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:08:16


Post by: Noir


So the answer is.... if it not 6mm it is the Kick Start backers fault?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:13:49


Post by: warboss


Noir wrote:
So the answer is.... if it not 6mm it is the Kick Start backers fault?


Or Ninja Division's... or the Chinese factory's... or his various brokers'... or Wayne's... or the guy who stole his doodles... or the backers. Anyone who works with him automatically gains the "Life is Cheap" ability. Additionally, Kevin Siembieda is always allowed to dodge a volley of more than 4 simultaneous instances of blame and has 1+ anti-fault lasers with the rear fire special ability.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:29:32


Post by: Joyboozer


 Mike1975 wrote:
ALL, PB should have an update on the scale up shortly....I have emailed and received an email from Kevin himself. I was trying to glean PB's intentions with the last updates and understand because it was kinda contrary to what I understood the times we had conference calls.
I really think this all came up since many want 10mm or larger for small New Generation bashes. When you are getting what you want you typically don't speak up and if you want something else you tend to speak up a lot. Those loud voices are likely what PB was hearing. The idea is that RRT is a large scale combat game. Think of it more in line with the larger battles that you've seen or the Sentinels battles from the books. Anyways, I don't want to add too much but later today we should have an update/clarification.

Why aren't we receiving any updates on the status of wave two? Why is the issue of scale for the next generations an issue more important than wave two?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:31:49


Post by: Noir


Joyboozer wrote:
 Mike1975 wrote:
ALL, PB should have an update on the scale up shortly....I have emailed and received an email from Kevin himself. I was trying to glean PB's intentions with the last updates and understand because it was kinda contrary to what I understood the times we had conference calls.
I really think this all came up since many want 10mm or larger for small New Generation bashes. When you are getting what you want you typically don't speak up and if you want something else you tend to speak up a lot. Those loud voices are likely what PB was hearing. The idea is that RRT is a large scale combat game. Think of it more in line with the larger battles that you've seen or the Sentinels battles from the books. Anyways, I don't want to add too much but later today we should have an update/clarification.

Why aren't we receiving any updates on the status of wave two? Why is the issue of scale for the next generations an issue more important than wave two?


Because, Kevin wants to wait until he has enough money to produce Wave 2. Before he talks about it.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:39:30


Post by: Alpharius


What's Wayne's job at Palladium?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:45:43


Post by: Forar


As a 'throwback Thursday' thing, let's see where this project was a year ago today (give or take a day);

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ goes into manufacturing!

645 Comments

Like
104 likes
We are absolutely thrilled to announce that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One has gone into manufacturing. This is one of the reasons we have been so busy the last few weeks, as we double- and triple-checked all aspects of the product: made final tweaks and adjustments to the packaging of the main box, expansion packs and rule book, finished designing the instruction sheets, as well as a number of advertising items, getting final approvals from Harmony Gold, and dealing with all the other aspects related to the product and manufacturing! Whew. Heads spinning. Looks great. Very exciting.

We are proud of the final product and confident you’ll find it exciting, fun and gorgeous. We can't wait to get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One into your hands. More details to follow as we nail down a shipping schedule.


Are all things perfectly equal? Of course not. Larger product line, but fewer figures per backer. Probably less to ship across the ocean, but greater complexity in packing and shipping to backers themselves. No longshoreman strike (that I know of), but who knows what other aspects of Murphy's Law will step in.

Long story short, they aimed for Gencon and went into production in June and barely made Black Friday.

As it stands, they had 5 sprue renders to show off ~104 days ago and since then we've had silence and distractions.

Not boding well here...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 21:49:47


Post by: Merijeek


 Alpharius wrote:
What's Wayne's job at Palladium?


Fluffer.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:19:47


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Update #181 Jun 11 2015

Hey, Everyone. It’s Kevin Siembieda.

Palladium has NO plan

So please, don’t any of you feel perplexed. But please do let us know what YOU want. That’s the entire reason for my raising the question. And I raised it in the strongest possible way so there could be no confusion or doubt. I really want YOU all to really think about what you want from these game pieces.

So please really think about this, talk about it amongst yourselves and let us know your thoughts on the matter.

Wayne will post a poll, probably next week, after there has been time for everyone to think about the subject. PLEASE participate in the poll. Please only vote once, because we are only counting the actual numbers in the poll, and we want them to be accurate.

This helps Palladium in a number of ways, because it will give us an absolute true indication of what you want,

Again, I want to make clear that the only reason we are even having this discussion is out of respect for the RRT Kickstarter backers who raised it in the first place and our desire to give you the game YOU want!

– Kevin Siembieda, Publisher


:rolleyes:

Although I do believe Keven when he wrote "Palladium has NO plan ".

Also, where's Wave 2?


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:24:44


Post by: warboss


Don't forget to put in the subject of the email "missing stuff" in clear reference to the lack of progress updates. If that doesn't work, ask cypher on the KS comments for the publicly posted contact number for Kevin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow...just peaked at the KS comments... already 400+ and its been only about an hour and a half. Most don't seem to be about the scale issue but rather wave 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
never mind...Dave Simpson seems to be having a comment spam meltdown.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:30:54


Post by: Merijeek


Yes, but if you read around his spasms (or just wait til he gets banned and his posts wiped) you'll see a couple people taking the scale thing seriously and the rest saying "screw this where's my Wave 2".


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:32:05


Post by: Manchu


WAVE 2 WAVE 2 WAVE 2

Oh nevermind let's just talk about stuff we haven't already paid for instead ...


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:40:38


Post by: Alpharius


Some of guys are something else over there in the KS Comments section!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:43:22


Post by: Merijeek


Compliment me all you want, I'll never do Wayne's job!


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:44:10


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
Some of guys are something else over there in the KS Comments section!


I love reading RRT comments - makes Dakka seem so peaceful.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:49:11


Post by: Merijeek


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Some of guys are something else over there in the KS Comments section!


I love reading RRT comments - makes Dakka seem so peaceful.


Only because Dakka is policed by jackbooted fascists moderated so well.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:49:48


Post by: Manchu


Pick up the can, Merijeek.



Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:50:08


Post by: Alpharius


And since no one answered me, I Interneted it myself!

Wayne Smith, Editor, Special Projects, Rifter® Editor-in-Chief

http://palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=211&Itemid=206#Wayne

Kevin's bio on that same page is...pretty interesting.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:52:02


Post by: Manchu


 Alpharius wrote:
And since no one answered me
Hold up there:
Merijeek wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
What's Wayne's job at Palladium?
Fluffer.


Robotech® RPG Tactics™ - "Restarting" the Kickstarter Discussion @ 2015/06/11 22:53:56


Post by: Merijeek


 Alpharius wrote:

Kevin's bio on that same page is...pretty interesting.


I'm pretty sure most Presidents don't get biographies that long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
Pick up the can, Merijeek.



Man, your post makes a lot more sense once the picture loaded.