Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

 Lynx7725 wrote:
They had at least 2 containers of nothing but starter boxes. Eh. Just go and measure a starter box, and then start filling an imaginary 20"x8"x8" box with them. That's if they didn't ship by 40" containers.

According to Amazon, a core box seems to be about 1' x 1' by 0.5', give or take a little.

A 20x8x8 container should have a rough internal volume of 1,280 cubic feet. Now, between pallets and extra layers or whatever, obviously they aren't going to fit them all perfectly in there with microns to spare, but that means (to my amateur eye) they should have been getting at least 2k boxes per container.

Which seems like massive overkill for the 6-7k boxes backers have been estimated to have paid for. But for 12k+ that people have estimated based on pictures at their warehouse and box numbering, I could see doing 6 containers of those alone, especially if they were rushing to get a mostly full set out into shipping, rather than waiting to be totally full. Add in another 7k+ 'extras baggies' and that seems like it'd basically come to 9, give or take.

Though I wonder how things would have changed up if they went with 40's, as you have mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

I think that quote saying it's in an update is just wrong/lazy journalism.

That has been quoted (verbatim) plenty of times as a copy/paste response to backers asking for refunds over the years, but I'm not sure it was ever said in an actual update.

 Forar wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

I think that quote saying it's in an update is just wrong/lazy journalism.

That has been quoted (verbatim) plenty of times as a copy/paste response to backers asking for refunds over the years, but I'm not sure it was ever said in an actual update.

I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

 Lynx7725 wrote:
Heh, ok. Most of the hero stuff are likely going to be decal/ repaint/ resin drop-in or some such, so I just lumped them together (FPA, Khyron Glaug. The hero VT in particular are likely to reuse the existing VFs. I wasn't too sure if some of the experimental fighters would be resin or plastic, so I just went with resin; I did forget to triple the Supers though.

Still, if we went with your count, they still lowered their production quotes. That's just strange.

Oh, that was my point. It's not that they planned to do the same work with less money, as your post noted. It's that they planned to do twice as much work with less money! I was emphasizing the scope/scale of what they were claiming. Couldn't do much more than a dozen figures and some work towards wave 2 with 1.5m or so, but surely 2 dozen figures plus resin bits will be done for under a million! No problem!

I'd expect resin to be done in the States, not in China. Resin production in States is fairly well developed, and would be cheaper to procure that way.

EDIT: We were both updating our posts so I missed some things. Thing is, there's nothing wrong with getting more stock to support the game, but the funding is the issue. From the way PB is talking, I don't think they are differentiating KS funds from retail stock funds, i.e., they are dipping whole forearms into the KS funds to buy retail stock for Wave 1. That just accelerated them into pits, but is also something observable over the years from PB -- their accounting practices just sucks.

Oh, I'm sure resin would be done in the US. It still needed to be done. Aside from the last minute work a few months ago that we saw on the bases and objectives, the resin stuff had basically been quietly ignored for years by them. I think the prototype SDF-1 a couple of years back was possibly the only noteworthy effort they made in that direction since the campaign closed.

And I agree. Morgan and I have been over this a dozen times over the years. If their manufacturer said that they could leverage economy of scale, and get 7,000 boxes for X, and 12,000 boxes for 1.5 X, and they paid the difference (or whatever, basically, KS funds covered the initial and they pitched in PB money to get more boxes at a better price), yeah, whatever, I'm sure plenty of companies do that. It's the assumption that they presumably paid the 1.5 X in full with KS money and expected to pocket the profits, which would be utter bullgak.

 Forar wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Update!

Apparently PB wrote this in a campaign update, maybe?

In an earlier update to the campaign, Palladium wrote “By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that…. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.”

Can anyone track that down?

It would be VERY helpful for all involved...

I think that quote saying it's in an update is just wrong/lazy journalism.

That has been quoted (verbatim) plenty of times as a copy/paste response to backers asking for refunds over the years, but I'm not sure it was ever said in an actual update.

That's too bad, because it would be fantastic if it was out there in a 'published' campaign update too.

Someone could check, but there are a lot of updates to go through.

Probably worth the effort, but possibly quite disappointing too if it doesn't exist in one.

Okay, based on some shenanigans, the Kickstarter page is now showing in... possibly Japanese.

Now Chrome is screwing with me too.

Edit: fixed it, must've managed to misclick something along the way.

 Forar wrote:

A 40x8x8 container should have a rough internal volume of 1,280 cubic feet. Now, between pallets and extra layers or whatever, obviously they aren't going to fit them all perfectly in there with microns to spare, but that means (to my amateur eye) they should have been getting at least 2k boxes per container.

Which seems like massive overkill for the 6-7k boxes backers have been estimated to have paid for. But for 12k+ that people have estimated based on pictures at their warehouse and box numbering, I could see doing 6 containers of those alone, especially if they were rushing to get a mostly full set out into shipping, rather than waiting to be totally full. Add in another 7k+ 'extras baggies' and that seems like it'd basically come to 9, give or take.

Though I wonder how things would have changed up if they went with 40's, as you have mentioned.

I'd more or less agree with you. Roughly, for estimated KS needs, 3 containers of Starters, probably 1 or 2 containers of other boxes, should be sufficient. The Destroid boxes, for example, were much smaller than the starter box. They would ship full containers, really, because in sea shipping it's cheaper generally to fill a full container than to share. So, KS shipping likely would total out to be around $40k or so. My guess is that we would see a clear reduction in Manufacturing costs that way too.

Of course PB should lay in a stock for retail support, but that shouldn't come out from KS funds. At best, some of the retail stock can come from any minimum orders that the manufacturer requires, and the rest should be funded from other sources. The minute PB decided to count the retail stock cost into KS funds is when it went south -- and the way they are presenting the current accounting hints heavily at non-segregation of accounts. Honestly, not surprising coming from PB.

It's a new game and starting out. You don't want to overstock because in retail, dead stock is horrible. One or two container load extra, spread amongst starter and unit boxes, should have been sufficient. Basically, I think the inexperience of PB in managing a supply chain for boardgaming/ miniature gaming shows here.

This now looks to be getting mailed to people:

Please note:

1. As we had hoped would be understood, our offer
of additional Wave One rewards to our RRT
Kickstarter backers is in lieu of any additional
compensation from Palladium, which Palladium is
simply not in a position to offer. By accepting
our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to
relinquish and waive any additional claims you
may have against Palladium with regard to the
Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the
Kickstarter campaign. A Notice will be inserted
with the shipment of your Wave One rewards
stating that your acceptance of the rewards
package waives any additional claims you may have.

I'm not a lawyer, but based on things I've read, that seems... dubious. Or at least, like something that could be challenged.

Especially if they were later proven to be negligent or have misled people.

But I'll leave that to the law talking folks.

 judgedoug wrote:
I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

Here's mine. Spoilered for physical size, more than the 139KB of the image.



And in case people were wondering, PB have started issuing responses.

Thank you for reaching out to us with your inquiry. We have reviewed your RRT Pledge# ******* in BackerKit and determined your Remaining Reward Value is $31.76 for RRT Wave Two rewards so that you can select Wave One rewards at the original Kickstarter campaign pricing.

Once you select your Wave One rewards that you would like to receive and confirm your current shipping address, we can pull them and calculate the cost of shipping for you. If this is what you would like to do, part of your Remaining Reward Value of $31.76 can also be applied towards RRT Exclusives at $22.00 USD each, with a maximum of 1 RRT Exclusives based on your Remaining Pledge Value.
Please note:

1. As we had hoped would be understood, our offer of additional Wave One rewards to our RRT Kickstarter backers is in lieu of any additional compensation from Palladium, which Palladium is simply not in a position to offer. By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign. A Notice will be inserted with the shipment of your Wave One rewards stating that your acceptance of the rewards package waives any additional claims you may have.

2. The Battle Cry, Showdown, and Reckless reward bundles are NOT available for selection.

Please utilize one of the following methods to pay for shipping:

A. By phone at 734-721-2903 and provide us with your credit card info*

* Full name as it reads on the credit card.
* Credit card number.
* Expiration date.
* Three digit security code on the back of the credit card.

B. Send a PayPal payment to
paypal@palladiumbooks.com, then let us know you have sent payment.

After we have received payment for shipping, we will ship your rewards and you will receive an email with a tracking number for the package.

Sincerely,

RRT Support Team
Palladium Books

I underlined the pertinent juicy bits.

EDIT: Oh, Bite me, Alphy. I was formatting! You ninja'd me!

 Alpharius wrote:
This now looks to be getting mailed to people:

*Flips PB middle finger*

Y'know, I don't think Kevin would ever understand... it's not about the money. Every monkey could tell the odds of Wave 2 appearing was near zero.

It's that PB had led the backers around for years, and then still made a blatant last ditch attempt to gouge more money out with going-to-be-dead Wave 1 items. The only recourse backers have at this point is to hurt PB where it would hurt most - the bottomline.

By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign. A Notice will be inserted with the shipment of your Wave One rewards stating that your acceptance of the rewards package waives any additional claims you may have.

DO NOT ACCEPT THE OFFER FROM PALLADIUM. They are attempting to head off what certainly will amount to either the FTC destroying them from hundreds/thousands of fraud investigations from credit card companies; from various state attorney generals; and from possibly civil or class action lawsuits. REMEMBER there is precedent for this!!! https://www.polygon.com/2015/9/11/9310945/kickstarter-court-victory-attorney-general-washington-asylum-playing-cards


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

Here's mine. Spoilered for physical size, more than the 139KB of the image.

Spoiler:

THAAAAANNKKK YOUUUU

I need more screenshots from people where Palladium had said that they would provide refunds.

PB *seems* to be hinting at a 'get your compensation this way, or get nothing, sorry!' - of course, that opinion probably won't match up with the reality of this situation.

Especially with the absolutely ridiculous time-frame of all of this.

And those pesky Kickstarter rules and such...

Copy/Pasted that to the KS Comments section

I smile when I imagine the look on Kevin's face when he was told that HG would not be renewing the license.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Copy/Pasted that to the KS Comments section

Psst. That's where it came from. At least where I got it. Context makes me think that's where Alpharius got it too.

Well, any warning cannot be spammed enough!

PB is counting on backers being willing to take pennies worth of pre-liquidation overstock on the dollar.

It's legal offer, and it can work for those who want something now, rather than to roll the dice on refunds / lawsuit.

However, based on the notice, it appears that PB has engaged a lawyer to craft the "hold harmless" language.

I wonder if they're still ducking service.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Copy/Pasted that to the KS Comments section

Psst. That's where it came from. At least where I got it. Context makes me think that's where Alpharius got it too.

Yes, totally!

But still, yes, post it and set it as a warning to all.

Some may actually want more of this stock from PB - and pay more to have it delivered to them too - but some may not, or be unaware of certain things.

Hrm. I might just have to have a long and exasperating talk with Visa at some point this weekend.

Backers threatening legal Tsunamis and other bullgak might not have gone anywhere (at least, not yet), but major credit cards hitting up Kickstarter or Palladium might get someones attention.

Just like Paypal requires a user, a business also must have a bank account attached. Same with businesses and Amazon.

I know, because I run on both platforms as an individual and business.

They will tap my bank account, as I have anecdoted before against others, and they give NO gaks of the status of funds in that attached account.

These companies make Billions in NET income. Palladium stands ZERO chance against them. What lawyer can Kevin hire to fight a team of lawyers from Visa, Paypal, Discover, etc....

If someone threatens you with a hammer, get someone with a bigger hammer.

Lawyer here...

Interesting. Look up Barnett and consent.

So, PB says switch out wave 2 for wave 1 junk and pay us shipping. And if you make that deal, unbeknownst to you, you get an "auto-accept" T&C in the mail.

In the great state of MD, that is a criminal offense.

If that email is correct, it is 100% not enforceable and in MD and DC it is illegal.

I can't say: "Hey, I'm mailing you a letter". When you get it and open it, it says "Got you! You owe me $1B by opening this letter".

In order to LEGALLY enter into an agreement, both parties:
1) Have to know the terms
2) Agree upon the terms (or have a judge force the agreement) via positive action

Hmmmm...This is a pretty stupid move by PB. This is like really, really dumb. Pro-consumer states like CA and MA will eat them for lunch.

Maybe they are already going out of business and want to attempt to shield.

Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
PB is counting on backers being willing to take pennies worth of pre-liquidation overstock on the dollar.

It's legal offer, and it can work for those who want something now, rather than to roll the dice on refunds / lawsuit.

However, based on the notice, it appears that PB has engaged a lawyer to craft the "hold harmless" language.

I wonder if they're still ducking service.

It is not a legal offer. I can't make you consent to something that you are unaware of, legally.

When you install new SW, they show you the T&Cs and you read them, of course (lulz), but you click the "I accept" button.

Let me frame this in a different way. You are reading this now, and hence you are aware. So, if you reply to this or quote it you owe me $100B within 30 days and you accept binding arbitration en lieu of any other legal instruments.

I'm gonna sit back and let my billions roll in.

 Swabby wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

Luckily, most of the tiers were just "a Battle Cry, but more of them".

A BC is missing;

- 1 Rick Exclusive (3 models)
- 1 Roy Exclusive (3 models)
- 1 Khyron Exclusive
- 1 Miriya Exclusive

- 3 Gnerls
- 3 MPA
- 2 Super VTs (all 3 modes, so 6 models here)
- 3 FPA
- 2 Lancers
- 2 Ghosts

27 models, plus any other wave two stuff bought as an add on. But a Showdown is just that list x2, and a Reckless is just that list x4.

Edit: and if they used regular VT Fighter and Guardian modes for the Rick/Roy exclusives, it's 27 models, but only 23 new ones. I forgot to hunt this down when replying earlier, but it's in their comments, the exclusives were supposed to be in the same plastic as the rest of the line. Yes, it'd be sensible to do limited run figures in resin, but they said it at the time, so that's not our problem.

Does anybody have any idea on where the $37.02 (or whatever it is) "value" left over from the Battle Cry level came from?

Seems to me that if a con exclusive is worth $22

Shouldn't the Rick and Roy be at least $44?

Is there some calculation that I don't follow, like 2k core boxes left and enough in lost wave 2 to trade that in for the core sets?

If they tell you that accepting the offer includes a "hold harmless", then you've gotten notice, and they're just including hardcopy in the box. The acceptance of the waiver occurred when the backer confirmed they want Wave 1 in lieu of anything else.

evancich wrote:
Lawyer here...

Interesting. Look up Barnett and consent.

So, PB says switch out wave 2 for wave 1 junk and pay us shipping. And if you make that deal, unbeknownst to you, you get an "auto-accept" T&C in the mail.

In the great state of MD, that is a criminal offense.

If that email is correct, it is 100% not enforceable and in MD and DC it is illegal.

I can't say: "Hey, I'm mailing you a letter". When you get it and open it, it says "Got you! You owe me $1B by opening this letter".

In order to LEGALLY enter into an agreement, both parties:
1) Have to know the terms
2) Agree upon the terms (or have a judge force the agreement) via positive action

Hmmmm...This is a pretty stupid move by PB. This is like really, really dumb. Pro-consumer states like CA and MA will eat them for lunch.

Maybe they are already going out of business and want to attempt to shield.

Not the first time that PB have done this kind of gak (though it is the most egregious from a nutkick-to-the-backers perspective).

When they shifted to auto-signing everyone up to their PBWU, it might have been fine in Michigan, but in many other states, and other countries (like mine), it's illegal to do so without consent.

PB don't seem to even consider their actions as potentially being illegal. It's an ongoing thing, and that's why I am of the firm belief that they've stepped on their dicks with regard how the Kickstarter funds were spent.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If they tell you that accepting the offer includes a "hold harmless", then you've gotten notice, and they're just including hardcopy in the box. The acceptance of the waiver occurred when the backer confirmed they want Wave 1 in lieu of anything else.

In the great state of MD, that is not only is not legally binding, it is criminal.

In many places, if you make an offer, all of the T&Cs have to be upfront.

Again, in MD (CA, MA, NY {off the top of my head}), I cannot LEGALLY make you offer A and after you accept make you offer A+1.

I'd have to really think about it, but what PB is doing might qualify as extortion in MD. Take this offer or get nothing. Oh after you take the offer, you also agree to XYZ that you didn't know about.

 Forar wrote:
Hrm. I might just have to have a long and exasperating talk with Visa at some point this weekend.
Backers threatening legal Tsunamis and other bullgak might not have gone anywhere (at least, not yet), but major credit cards hitting up Kickstarter or Palladium might get someones attention.

Looks like I will need to do the same.
I had sent a big package to "consumer@ontario.ca" back in 2015 so it only needs an update on recent developments.
Request for refund.
Filing with the BBB.
Kevin sending me a couple letters telling me I have no right to refund and they anticipate sending wave 2 as promised (I think prior text said I had no rights and it was an "investment").
Anyway, a definitive answer now can make a case for Visa to take their money back.
The costing "list" makes the value to take back a rather clear matter.
Agreed that the initial thought on trading for stock is not near as nice as having them keep their stock AND bill them for what is owed.
It gives a rather warm and fuzzy feeling.

Anyone lodging a claim with Visa, please let me know a contact or something and that should help their case.
My data may help your claim.
Anything I get back from Visa would then invalidate any claim I may have for a court case BUT the data I received is still useful as evidence.

Again lawyer here...

In order for this to be "legal (whatever that means)", PB has to state up front that if you take this deal you wave these rights.

They did not do that in update 218 (or whatever).

So, if I accepted the offer. They cannot legally alter the agreement without me also being able to alter the agreement.

In other words, you can take the wave 1 stuff and just say, no I do not agree to the "harmless (not a legal term)" part, but I still want my wave 1 stuff.

That is another thing of note.

If you DO get stuff back from ANY CC company, I would share their findings with the various groups.

If Discover says they uncovered XYZ during their investigation, I'm sure an attorney would like to have that information also.

Dude, all they need to do is print and include this:

By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign.

That's what they said as part of the follow-up email to each backer, so that's what it should say on the notice.

Then, if someone pushes for more, they quash it based on the waiver that was accepted.

And BTW, the money is all gone.

I don't want to see PB go out of business. Some folks seem to enjoy Rifts (or whatever) so let them enjoy that.

I'd like an accounting from Kevin, but that won't happen sans lawsuit.

What is starting to bug me is PB will have to destroy the core boxes. Why doesn't PB just give all of those to schools and foster wargamming and model building rather than "sell" them or throw them away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Dude, all they need to do is print and include this:

By accepting our offer of Wave One rewards, you agree to relinquish and waive any additional claims you may have against Palladium with regard to the Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) game and the Kickstarter campaign.

That's what they said as part of the follow-up email to each backer, so that's what it should say on the notice.

Then, if someone pushes for more, they quash it based on the waiver that was accepted.

I don't know how else to explain it to you. But, the law simply does not work that way.

In that update from the other night, PB set expectations at X

In the follow up email, they are changing the deal. X+1

Great, now I have the same ability to change the deal. And I'll change it to be X-5 and send you a similar letter.

That is just how it works.

The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

So, I just went through the prices (campaign upgrade pricing) on the battlecry. Here is the breakdown:

1x Rick Hunter ($15)
1x Roy Fokker ($15)
1x Miriya ($15)
3x Gnerl Fighters ($15)
3x Nousjadeur-Ger ($20)
2x Super Valkyries ($35)
3x Queadluun-Rau FPA ($30)
2x SF-3 Lancer II ($10, half value of box of 4)
2x QF-3000 Ghost Drone ($10, half value box of 4)

Total retail: $165

How the hell this gets boiled down to $31 is beyond me.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

It doesn't.

Anyway, I contacted a bunch of "blogs" and https://kotaku.com/ will write a story about this.

They're clearly representing it as some portion of the value in a battlecry. Like, we paid $140 for basically 2 core boxes worth and then a big pile of other stuff on top of that (the initial offering wasn't 2 cores, but aside from Destroid swapping, it's basically 2 cores plus wave 2 stuff).

So, one could work out the amount we paid for a Battle Cry, compare it to the cost of buying that stuff separately, add in the wave 2 stuff, and work out a proportional amount remaining of that original deal.

I'd put us closer to 1/3 than 1/4 like they have, based on the number of figures and their relative value (a box of FPA is more expensive than a box of VTs), but it's quibbling over dollars either way.

I once worked out a spreadsheet for this, I'll have to go looking for it after my date or maybe over the weekend.

Credit card company looks like no muss no fuss.
We get a refund even if Palladium Books does not have the money.
Someone with deep pockets go after them to collect.
They can affect their sales since people pay with credit cards.
Now things are rather clear, this should work out rather nice.
I may even send chocolates and flowers to whomever processes my claim.
As a sign of appreciation only.

So many choices, could it be possible a suitably painful form of closure can be achieved?

Somebody did the breakdown of PB sales based off a print run of 300 to 600 books (or something like that). Are they really making $9k a month and if so how many employees do they have?

$9k/month doesn't go very far with a few people

evancich wrote:
Somebody did the breakdown of PB sales based off a print run of 300 to 600 books (or something like that). Are they really making $9k a month and if so how many employees do they have?

$9k/month doesn't go very far with a few people

according to their website, they have 7 staffs including Kev'. with 9k/month they can't run the company. even with minimum wage...
when I was in gaming retail, we had a small store and 15k a month was needed to break even. obviously the staff were cheaply paid at that time and that was 15 years ago
my guess is that they have been running on fumes for the past decade... the KS just help them to breath a bit more of the fumes. According to they own website, Robotech is one of their main cash cow now that is gone and with litigation on its way, they better hard discount stuff at Adepticon real fast...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

This is the same "lawyer" that claimed a lawsuit would be thrown out of court because it is over toys.
The same "lawyer" that wrote that Kevin could bring to court an untranslated Chinese document and win by claiming it is proof of manufacturing.

So do you think it is unfair to expect an equal dollar amount of wave 1 product for the amount of wave 2 stretch goals and add ons owed as part of this exchange deal?

This arbitrary amount they came up with seems very strange to me.

 n815e wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The email supersedes the Update, obviously. The deal isn't concluded until both parties accept, and fine print is everywhere. If you wanted to push it, you would absolutely lose.

Anyhow, I'm done explaining the obvious to a self-proclaimed lawyer who doesn't understand reality. Good luck.

This is the same "lawyer" that claimed a lawsuit would be thrown out of court because it is over toys.
The same "lawyer" that wrote that Kevin could bring to court an untranslated Chinese document and win by claiming it is proof of manufacturing.

Neither of those statements are true


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jul wrote:

evancich wrote:
Somebody did the breakdown of PB sales based off a print run of 300 to 600 books (or something like that). Are they really making $9k a month and if so how many employees do they have?

$9k/month doesn't go very far with a few people

according to their website, they have 7 staffs including Kev'. with 9k/month they can't run the company. even with minimum wage...
when I was in gaming retail, we had a small store and 15k a month was needed to break even. obviously the staff were cheaply paid at that time and that was 15 years ago
my guess is that they have been running on fumes for the past decade... the KS just help them to breath a bit more of the fumes. According to they own website, Robotech is one of their main cash cow now that is gone and with litigation on its way, they better hard discount stuff at Adepticon real fast...

9k / month doesn’t go very far, which is why I didn’t understand the 300 to 600 books a month. If you are making $9k / month, $1.4M is a crazy amount

 Swabby wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gmwLLs9LKOcKo-chGNdPaf6rHCKzpmSn1iXE28rYLh0/edit?usp=sharing

My maths don't seem to match with what PB claims though.

 Swabby wrote:
So do you think it is unfair to expect an equal dollar amount of wave 1 product for the amount of wave 2 stretch goals and add ons owed as part of this exchange deal?

This arbitrary amount they came up with seems very strange to me.

Agreed. Especially since Showdown (literally 2x Battlecry) is below 2x of the Battlecry "refund". Okay, we can prorate it, since 2x Battlecry would be $280, and Showdown is only $260. But then it should be $58.98. not $52.94. And, by same logic, Reckless should be $117.96, not $105.88. No idea where the hell their numbers are coming from.

Man, finding which credit card I used at the time is going to be a bitch....

For those who are trying a charge back, are you doing the full amount?

I found the card I used and the amount charged but the card isn't open anymore, I closed it a couple years ago.

I know there was some screwing around with the pledge manager and all that. Can you tell me the month it went through?

Just reading up on Incorporation and US liability and I just wondered was Kevin tight enough to register his house as a company asset for the tax breaks. Probably not but looking at this screw up of a KS maybe he was that dumb, if so that should give you guys the warm and fuzzies.

Merijeek wrote:
I know there was some screwing around with the pledge manager and all that. Can you tell me the month it went through?

I still have to check my statements to be sure, but I think I was charged for my pledge on 5/20/13, and then when I filled out the pledge manager on 9/11/13.

Found it. I was charged 5/21/2013.

I didn't add anything extra on the PM.

Merijeek wrote:
Man, finding which credit card I used at the time is going to be a bitch....

For those who are trying a charge back, are you doing the full amount?

No, just the amount for the product that wasn't fulfilled. While I don't agree with Kevin's math on the stretch goal stuff included in the Battlecry/etc choices, most of my money was in add on product, so I used his numbers, which agreed on the add-ons at the very least.

Honestly invoicing him probably won't do anything other than create a paper trail, but that could be useful in the future.

SeanDrake wrote:
Just reading up on Incorporation and US liability and I just wondered was Kevin tight enough to register his house as a company asset for the tax breaks. Probably not but looking at this screw up of a KS maybe he was that dumb, if so that should give you guys the warm and fuzzies.

One can only hope, along with his car...

cannonfodr wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
Does anyone have a breakdown of the retail value of the wave two models that are owed for the various tiers?

I kind of recall Forar keeping a list of models owed or something in the past. But that is 5 years of memories dusty.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gmwLLs9LKOcKo-chGNdPaf6rHCKzpmSn1iXE28rYLh0/edit?usp=sharing

My maths don't seem to match with what PB claims though.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for

First time poster here. Regarding PB changing the terms of their agreement via their response email, it works like this. The Uniform Commerce Code did away with the Mirror Image rule, which used to require that an acceptance of a contract had to accept the contract under the terms it was offered. That is no longer the case. The other party can accept a contract while changing the terms. If they choose to do so, it is up to the originating party to then refuse the altered terms. If they did not specifically refuse the new terms, then the contract is binding. So if you ask for wave one stuff and PB responds by saying "sure, and btw, this means you forfeit any future claims" then that is binding unless you respond with a statement specifically stating that you do not accept those terms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, this is under US standards, international standards still maintain the Mirror Image rule.

evancich wrote:
Don't forget you'll have to explain Robotech, mini war gaming and PB to the judge.

As a grown person.

Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.

And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was giving an analogy of what the legal bars are.

Lowest in MD is a temp peace order, which is about 51%. The other is 91%, almost twice.

Do you think anybody here in a few hours can talk a judge into that PB isn't "working" on it? When the bar is that much higher?

But if I understand this correctly we can only successfully dispute the later backerkit charges, the stuff we added later on. For me that is only $205 of my total order of like $700. :(

I don't know about that. They've given you what they see as the proper dollar amount for what they owe you.

That, plus add-ons should be at least a bit more.

evancich wrote:Why doesn't PB just give all of those to schools and foster wargamming and model building rather than "sell" them or throw them away.

You must not like kids and newbies...

(All kidding aside, the RRT models are not good ones for new modelers and gamers to start with. They would most likely stop the hobby before they start.)

Kev's Final Insult. They cant do it. They cannot fulfill even their product-for-refund offer before the have to destroy the remaining Robotech Tactics stock and books. I imagine atleast 4000 backers had materials in wave two, with current outstanding claims. A good chunk are holding out hope that the original KS agreement which required backers failing to fulfill on projects to refund backers is still applicable, so that leaves 2000-ish backers requesting product-as-refund. PB has to receive, confirm, tally, pull, package, work CC payment for shipping, and ship all this material in 28 or less days. Nope. Not. Going. To. Happen. Kev will on the last day he still has access to the stock post another update and go "sorry due to the volume of your dedication to this game, we here at PB are unable to ship you your product-as-refund before the end of month deadline. Its not our fault. (to bad for you)" I don't want to believe this will happen, but I feel it will. And what happens when what you requested was not shipped? no strock/no corrections. Those at the end of the queue will end up with random stuff and floor sweepings.

 Mike1975 wrote:
But if I understand this correctly we can only successfully dispute the later backerkit charges, the stuff we added later on. For me that is only $205 of my total order of like $700. :(

You can immediately get $205 out of $700, and then invoice PB for the balance.

Let's say that you received $300 fair value worth of Wave 1 goods, then you'd be owed $400. If you could get $200 of that cash, right off the top, then you'd only be in the hole for $200. Dispute the $205, and invoice PB for the remaining $200.

But definitely start with your CC company to get the first $205.

 judgedoug wrote:


I need screenshots of Palladium saying this to people. If anyone has a screenshot, please post it. It will become vital to ANYONE filing a fraud case through their credit card company against Palladium.
It is the evidence that, for example, Discover needs to show that they were once in compliance with KS-TOU and then are now in violation. The hook is that the promise of refunds is the intention to produce product paid for or to refund for product not received. This is vital.

Here's another :

So... there's an Update from the wayward Scott Gibbons. Nothing of real note. Like Wayne's "questions" from almost three years ago, he answers the questions he wants to answer, and not the ones people actually want answered.

He bleats the same "numbers" as Kevin did, while providing no context or further details, claiming they're not allowed to declare specific numbers.

A lot of meaningless crap.

Oh, the Promo figures was ambiguous and they clarified. It's only one total, plus one per full $100 of owed value. So as someone pointed out, their $210 of owed value doesn't even entitle them to one of each.

And the reason it's not on FB or website is out of respect for backers. Like that's a thing they give a crap about.

Hiding behind NDAs now. They can't, they have a legal obligation per the TOS to share a full accounting of how KS funds were spent. Backers are part of the project, so really it's hard to argue that they are blocked from sharing information via the NDA anyways.

And how has Scott NOT resigned? Sinking ships and all that.

Could it be that Kevin used KS money to fund this movie ?

http://www.zone-image.com/uploads/Ou4H1.jpg

 John Prins wrote:

And how has Scott NOT resigned? Sinking ships and all that.

Because people don't work at PB when they're at the zenith of their career.

If he can't keep a job at PB, what's next? McDonald's has standards.

Scott lives in Texas and has been around PB at least since 2010.

Like most of PB staff, they all have second jobs...

as of 2012, he doesn't seem that Scott was employed by PB.

Update #199 is particularly interesting as he mentioned this:
"Wayne and Kevin spent half of Friday morning (7/16/2017) on a conference call with a manufacturer (I did not sit in on the call due to another pressing business need that morning). "

SO he's in charge but doesn't attend conf call with manufacturers? that's weird... that let me think that Scott didn't know about the actual state of the project until recently. But Wayne and Kevin knew for sure...

As financial and business manager, he should have access to the numbers, but I doubt that based on the description Bill Coffin made years ago on how Kevin operates his company...

 Mike1975 wrote:
But if I understand this correctly we can only successfully dispute the later backerkit charges, the stuff we added later on. For me that is only $205 of my total order of like $700. :(

You can absolutely file a fraud claim on your initial Kickstarter charge.

 jul wrote:
Scott lives in Texas and has been around PB at least since 2010.

Like most of PB staff, they all have second jobs...

as of 2012, he doesn't seem that Scott was employed by PB.

Update #199 is particularly interesting as he mentioned this:
"Wayne and Kevin spent half of Friday morning (7/16/2017) on a conference call with a manufacturer (I did not sit in on the call due to another pressing business need that morning). "

SO he's in charge but doesn't attend conf call with manufacturers? that's weird... that let me think that Scott didn't know about the actual state of the project until recently. But Wayne and Kevin knew for sure...

As financial and business manager, he should have access to the numbers, but I doubt that based on the description Bill Coffin made years ago on how Kevin operates his company...

In his first Update (the same one you got that quote from), Scott did say, among other things "Over the last few weeks, I have become intimately familiar with all aspects of the company on all fronts, financial and otherwise.".

So, he can't really use the excuse that it's not something that wasn't covered. He can claim Kevin lied to him, and that's about it.

On a side note, a backer pointed out that taxes as a category wasn't factored in to the pie chart. He gave numbers, but I'm not sure how accurate they are, including the tax liability of almost $500K. I'm not sure corporate tax is applied in that manner. But he mentions that other similar campaigns have listed taxation as a separate expense.

If people are committed to getting their pound of flesh rather than seeking actual recompense, maybe that's the way to tackle it? The AG's and FTC might not want to take it up, nor a class-action be achievable. But if PB have been screwing the IRS, Kevin will be wishing for the halcyon days of just having backers pissed at them.

Put this generic PB "go feth yourself" response to someone asking for a refund in the event anyone else wants to use it for credit card disputes.

https://ibb.co/b5TgF7

Merijeek wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

And how has Scott NOT resigned? Sinking ships and all that.

Because people don't work at PB when they're at the zenith of their career.

If he can't keep a job at PB, what's next? McDonald's has standards.

I've heard that Kevin gives jobs to his friends that have fallen on hard times.

I can’t post on the KS page, since I’ve deleted my account - can someone pass this question along?

1). Will PB be required to pull the Robotech PDF’s from Drivethru at the end of March? This could affect anyone who requests them in lieu of Wave 2 product who does not access/download the files by the date they are pulled, or would need to redownload the PDF at a later date.

Can't see it - what's it say?

It does seem as if PB is going to try and force the issue here - 'product or nothing', in clear violation of Kickstarter's Terms AND PB's own word.

People will have to get a bit more organized and force the issue back - which will almost assuredly mean bankruptcy for them.

 Alpharius wrote:
Can't see it - what's it say?

It does seem as if PB is going to try and force the issue here - 'product or nothing', in clear violation of Kickstarter's Terms AND PB's own word.

People will have to get a bit more organized and force the issue back - which will almost assuredly mean bankruptcy for them.

Thanks Doug - appreciate it!

Doug -

I submitted to chase, and poof, find myself at a login screen. I know to do a copy before I submit, but, well, it wasn't a fantastic letter.

Since you have had luck with Discover, can you share your verbiage?

 Alpharius wrote:
Thanks Doug - appreciate it!

I just want to point out that for the last many years I thought his username was judgeDOG, until just now.

Now, my brain hurts and I'm going to lay down.

Sure thing guys. I am putting together a pack right now of the evidence that Discover has required of me and the verbiage used.

However, I need a screenshot of official communications from Palladium to any backer since Feb 27 that contains the a) "we cannot offer monetary refunds" verbiage and b) the "Accord and Satisfaction" legal agreement they are attempting to bind backers with.

You mean, other than the official updates ?

 HudsonD wrote:
You mean, other than the official updates ?

The word "refund" is conspicuously absent from any of the updates. The only indication of anything like that is the Accord and Satisfaction debt language in "We know it is not what you expected, but we would like to offer you Wave One rewards in exchange for the unrealized Wave Two rewards."

It is very much a legal cover-your-ass, but they have blown that in their official correspondences to backers, which is why I need screenshots of that.

In the follow up email, they are changing the deal. X+1

Great, now I have the same ability to change the deal. And I'll change it to be X-5 and send you a similar letter.

That is just how it works.

:in Darth Vader's voice: "Palladium Books is altering the deal...pray they don't alter it any further..."

Incoming opinion, observation

Just to note; if this was just about any other company that was offering a swap in product, I’d likely be going for the trade in. I would be unhappy but understanding if I was losing some value via the trade-off; at least I’m getting something of value that I like!

However, PB seems to be both trying its best to be underhanded about the whole process and botch it every step of the way.

- Undervaluing refund for Battlecry+ undelivered Wave 2 product. $37 worth left undelivered my ass

- Putting a rush on swapping the product to panic consumers into acting. The last time PB renewed it’s contract with HG they knew BEFORE January it was coming up. I really think with the lack of updates, they’ve known this was coming back in December.

- Sitting on the fact they were out of funds for the KS for nearly 3 years. I can accept a small delay (say 30, maybe 60 days) if they were trying to secure alternate funds, but they should have long ago revealed their money woes and ended this farce years ago

- The “We’re getting quotes, totes working on it”. I can call up a Lamborgini car center and ask for prices all day long, but if I don’t actually have the money - or ever will have the money saved up for one, its a useless request and I’m not working towards it...

- Demanding backers pay shipping for the swap, especially considering they were already planning to cover shipping on Wave 2 (when they ALREADY knew they were out of funds)

- Being quiet/ignoring about their former statement that they would do REFUNDS if the KS failed. “Swap or nothing” at this time is not acceptable, and akin to a threat under duress

- The brainfart of asking for Credit Card numbers through KS messenger. While it has the typical PB “act before thinking” ring typical to them, it is also a somewhat underhanded request in the first place

- Offering PDFs for product they likely will have to pull because they no longer have the license

They are just really, really coming across as scumbags at this point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and anyone want to take bets on PB having any KS comments deleted that show where they mentioned “refund if KS failed”? Get screenshots while you can, folks.

 judgedoug wrote:
Sure thing guys. I am putting together a pack right now of the evidence that Discover has required of me and the verbiage used.

However, I need a screenshot of official communications from Palladium to any backer since Feb 27 that contains the a) "we cannot offer monetary refunds" verbiage and b) the "Accord and Satisfaction" legal agreement they are attempting to bind backers with.

Just put up a general request for this info on the main FB page......

Been trying. Right now I need a screenshot from Palladium denying a refund request from the last few days.

Also, it took them many months to coordinate and ship out wave 1 rewards to the backers.

Now they are going to do that again, but in one month's time? It's hard to believe they are capable of it.

OK, so apparently Harmony Gold are hosting a panel in just under 5 hours at the Emerald City Comicon (Seattle).

https://www.emeraldcitycomiccon.com/en/Sessions/53151/Robotech-A-Look-To-The-Future

A Look To The Future?

Wow, that's gonna be an uncomfortable panel.

Here is one.....

I just want you guys to know that you can thank me for them finally canceling wave 2. Last week i was flipping through amazon video and saw macross, started watching which got me hype to finally break out the models and begin assembly. Get all zentradi built.... then this happens.

The language in the PMs from PB really does strongly imply that they do not feel that they have to give actual cash refunds to anyone.

 Alpharius wrote:
The language in the PMs from PB really does strongly imply that they do not feel that they have to give actual cash refunds to anyone.

More that they don't have cash on hand, because it's all tied up in worthless inventory.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The language in the PMs from PB really does strongly imply that they do not feel that they have to give actual cash refunds to anyone.

More that they don't have cash on hand, because it's all tied up in worthless inventory.

You shut your mouth. That inventory is pure gold the value of which can't be calculated.

You'll find out firsthand when it ends up on EBay in 6 months.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The language in the PMs from PB really does strongly imply that they do not feel that they have to give actual cash refunds to anyone.

More that they don't have cash on hand, because it's all tied up in worthless inventory.

PB will have to declare bankruptcy and liquidate...a lot/almost everything in order to pay everyone back, as they know they are really obligated to do.

They either aren't ready to acknowledge this, are still in denial, or hope that everyone takes the initial 'offer'.

I don't think there are enough Fan Friends left to bail out Kevin this time around - "Kevin's Kickstarter Crisis of Betrayal of the Backers" might be it for them.

There's a lot of tests that are going to happen. Kickstarter's actual terms and enforcement are about to be tested. I mean, should be tested as I think they'll sit back and do nothing. Tests regarding finding an attorney willing to start to challenge some laws that are nebulous and gray area in regards to backer rights in a Kickstarter. Tests of solidarity as we see how many of the 5,342 backers are going to hinge their hopes on like a hundred or so of us raising $10k-$25k for payment of the attorney. I'd pray that at least half the backers would come together on this but I really have trepidation it's going to collapse simply because too many people are unwilling to take action.
I wish I knew how many backers took ten minutes to email the Michigan Attorney General and FTC or if they went into hopeless mode and didn't bother.

Even if the lawsuit fails to gather steam, the AG sits up his butt, the FTC laughs it off, and the Better Business Bureau takes away another star and does nothing, Palladium games is pretty much over as a game company. This kickstarter and subsequent treatment of backers by Kevin Siembieda will cast a long shadow he'll never get out from under.

Small comfort, but I'll take what I can get.

Has anyone actually got a money refund from them... I have seen a number of people saying they sent notice... but what has happened since??

Reading the comments really makes this a sad venture... Palladium has know since before wave one shipped that they were out of money due to miss management.
Because the sale price was aligned with other games of its type.. then instead of coming clean they wait till the last few weeks with the licence gone to fess up.

I got rid of my stuff years ago and don't want to receive anything but a refund of money.

This makes me wonder what was really going during the time with the Rifts game and what happen with Carmen afterwards knowing in full that RRT had no money....

This is Kevin's legacy..

Speak confidently and loudly and tell a person how you wish reality works.
This is the first tactic of the narcissists.
They hope strongly you have no clue what your rights are and are not about to give a hint to it in a letter.

Sent JudgeDoug a care package.
I tend to keep good records.
Hope Kevin chokes on it.

BTW would you believe the BBB clears out complaints on your "account"?
No sign of them, like they never existed.
"Luckily" between screenshots and downloads I have a record from back in 2015.
I do not trust anyone to keep an unaltered record but me.

What is that phrase?: "Love everyone but trust no-one.".

You can actually pay the BBB as a business to clear complaints. They are a scam in themselves. And the complaints go away after three years anyway.

Isnt no one else a bit worried about PBs upcoming "April Fools" on 1st April when the KS page will be taken down for IP reasons, as far as i know they wont be able to have the page up without HGs permission and i cant see PB asking for that and using it as a way to quell the backers from getting organised together and trying to hide the graphics in case there is a lawsuit, it happened to the only other KS i know of that has lost its IP licence the Bruce Lee game "Dragon Tides" there may be other examples but im not aware of them!

Those asking about why they are being offered @$32 for @$155-165(ive seen both of those figures used) of goods is that i think they are using the estimated production costs for wave 2, ive been told by multiple board game creators that a game and Xpacs etc costs 1/5th of the retail price to produce and those numbers are about right, 155 ~ 5 = 31 & 165 ~ 5 = 33!

 Original Timmy wrote:
Isnt no one else a bit worried about PBs upcoming "April Fools" on 1st March when the KS page will be taken down for IP reasons, as far as i know they wont be able to have the page up without HGs permission and i cant see PB asking for that and using it as a way to quell the backers from getting organised together and trying to hide the graphics in case there is a lawsuit, it happened to the only other KS i know of that has lost its IP licence the Bruce Lee game "Dragon Tides" there may be other examples but im not aware of them!

Alien vs Predator was the first big KS to fake up an IP dispute to close their KS pages:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game

 Original Timmy wrote:
Isnt no one else a bit worried about PBs upcoming "April Fools" on 1st March when the KS page will be taken down for IP reasons, as far as i know they wont be able to have the page up without HGs permission and i cant see PB asking for that and using it as a way to quell the backers from getting organised together and trying to hide the graphics in case there is a lawsuit, it happened to the only other KS i know of that has lost its IP licence the Bruce Lee game "Dragon Tides" there may be other examples but im not aware of them!

Those asking about why they are being offered @$32 for @$155-165(ive seen both of those figures used) of goods is that i think they are using the estimated production costs for wave 2, ive been told by multiple board game creators that a game and Xpacs etc costs 1/5th of the retail price to produce and those numbers are about right, 155 ~ 5 = 31 & 165 ~ 5 = 33!

Yeah, their exchange offer is basically 'cost value credit, retail value debit'. Plus shipping. And taxes. And Royal Mail's handling charge. Not a good deal for us in blighty. Or anywhere really.

Holy gak on a Shingle... there's ANOTHER update.

People are LOSING THEIR fething MINDS in the Comments.


There's been an INCREDIBLE REPSONSE to their exchange program!

Get your stuff while it lasts!!

So much is going so fast they had to UP the limits on Exclusives based on how much they cornholed you for the first time around.

GET IN THERE BOYS!

 TalonZahn wrote:
Holy gak on a Shingle... there's ANOTHER update.

People are LOSING THEIR fething MINDS in the Comments.


There's been an INCREDIBLE REPSONSE to their exchange program!

Get your stuff while it lasts!!

So much is going so fast they had to UP the limits on Exclusives based on how much they cornholed you for the first time around.

GET IN THERE BOYS!

I believe that's from the same vein of dishonesty that got us robotech boiling over and such a year ago. I do believe though that the convention exclusives will be frequently asked for items as opposed to the gak plastics in wave 1 we all already have enough of (mostly unbuilt is my guess).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/2127556

liar & thief wrote:we have a good supply of the core RRT products, including Cat. No. 55100, the Robotech® RPG Tactics Box Set

No gak.

My God, they are not only tone deaf, they are living in an alternate reality.

"Overwhelming response?" Yeah, I'll bet its overwhelming, but definitely not in the good way they're trying to spin it. I think I've seen perhaps five people in the comments willing to take the offer?

Obviously Kevin thinks that being out of KS funds absolves him of all his debt. It's us plebs who generously gave him our money took the risks, not him and his company.

I'd been contemplating stepping away, just considering the money lost at this point. Now, with the way this jackass is tooting his "victory" horn, I want to see him and his business go down in fiery flames.

As an aside, I have lost all empathy for Scott - he has proven himself to be a willing shill in this shell game.

Kevin kept the project alive for three extra years and worked so hard because he loves you, the fans.

 Stormonu wrote:
My God, they are not only tone deaf, they are living in an alternate reality.

I don't think so. I think they're just trying to generate fear of missing out. With a population of over 5000 backers, even a small percentage opting into the redemption makes a noticeable difference in their liabilities as an absolute dollar amount. At this point it's everything they can muster to keep the ship from going down.

"Overwhelming response?" Yeah, I'll bet its overwhelming, but definitely not in the good way they're trying to spin it. I think I've seen perhaps five people in the comments willing to take the offer?

That's the funny thing. PB are so small that even a small percentage of backers taking the offer are going to very quickly overwhelm them. A couple hundred custom orders with individual invoicing is a substantial amount of work. They have no hope in hell of handling a few thousand, but that's not the intention here.

I'd been contemplating stepping away, just considering the money lost at this point. Now, with the way this jackass is tooting his "victory" horn, I want to see him and his business go down in fiery flames.

Worst comes to worst, they smolder out as a forgotten company with too few loyal fans to support them financially. It probably won't be the big bang that'll bring the backers a sense of closure they crave, but it will be the sort of stressful, draining grind that's far more punishing than people imagine it to be (you just don't see it).

They just sent out their weekly email. Here is the bit that matters to this.

"This has been a long, rather solemn week. Tuesday night, Palladium announced on the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter page that despite Palladium’s best efforts, we would be unable to produce and ship the RRT Wave 2 rewards. But we are offering our backers a Reward Exchange of Wave One items for remaining Wave Two rewards. Moreover, after proudly carrying the legacy of Robotech® in the role-playing games medium for 30 years, our license has expired and is not being renewed.

Backers of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) should see Kickstarter Update #217 for more information and #218 to learn how to obtain Wave One rewards for their remaining Wave Two pledges. We have already gotten a tremendous response from the RRT Kickstarter backers and begun shipping RRT Wave One rewards to those individuals participating in the Exchange. Our sincere thanks and appreciation for the understanding, cooperation and kindness of many of our backers.

All of this is truly heartbreaking for all of us at Palladium. We love Robotech®, the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) game, and the fans.

Liquidating Robotech® product
Palladium Books has only a small window of time to liquidate its remaining stock of Robotech® RPG books and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) products. While we anticipate offering some sales later in March, we cannot promise that all items will be available when the sales are offered. All Robotech® items are available only while supplies last. Case in point, Robotech® Genesis Pits (Cat. No. 555) sold out this morning. And Robotech® New Generation Sourcebook is not far behind it. If there is a title you really want, we recommend you do not wait for a sale to acquire it.

PDFs of the original Robotech® RPG & Sourcebooks – available til March 31 – DriveThruRPG.com – on sale now
PDF books of the original Robotech® Role-Playing Game and sourcebooks from the 1980s and 1990s are already on sale on DriveThruRPG.com – till March 31, 2018. After that, they will no longer be available. Likewise, we believe Palladium Books will be required to remove even the FREE Robotech® RPG Tactics™ material from DriveThruRPG as we will no longer hold the license. Please get all the items you desire for your personal library before March 31, 2018.

I would like to state that the people at Harmony Gold USA, Inc., have been wonderful partners to work with these many years. They went above and beyond the call of duty when it came to their assistance with trying to keep RRT alive. Our thanks to everyone involved"

The very last statement is interesting. I'm guessing PB didn't renew the license not because HG outright refused (Kevin would have thrown them under the bus if that'd happened), but I'm *guessing* they've finally hit critically low on funds they couldn't scrape up enough to continue paying for it.

If so, that gives me some solace.

If that's the case then that's very interesting.

I was reading through the comments across multiple threads, and saw several others echoing my thoughts about expenses.

So I thought I might put together a list of things that PB may have spent money on, that might be considered misappropriation.

- Advertising beyond May 21st, 2013 (Any advertising after that point was not for the Kickstarter, as they didn't offer a publicly available "Late Pledge", therefore it was for retail content, which is not a Kickstarter reward).
- Any funds spent on dealing with distributors and retailers, if any. (I know some developers wine and dine, etc. Yup, not a Kickstarter expense).
- Convention expenses, including booth space and hotel rooms, that didn't fall between at least a few months before the original campaign period and arguably, the end of the Pledge Manager period. (Given that rewards were not able to be picked up at GenCon 2014, regardless of them being unable to get it there, this was again for retail content). And even funds spent during that time would need to be prorated against other things Palladium were promoting during that time.
- Development and any print runs of the original Kickstarter Exclusives (not initially available to Kickstarter Backers). Don't know if this applies to the final 4 made, but I'm pretty sure it would.
- A portion of the licensing fees (not royalties, that is fully justified), for Kickstarter rewards only. Meaning the value of Kickstarter rewards as a portion of the total against retail sales, and whatever paltry sum they make on RPG books, do not count.
- The explicit manufacture of any product not required for Kickstarter fulfillment (which we know is at least 10K Core boxes, and lord knows how many Expansion Boxes)
- The importation of those products not required for Kickstarter fulfillment.

All development costs, up to and including mold manufacture, are legitmate expenses. That's the point of Kickstarter, that backers pay for that part, so that retail is more profitable for the Creator as a cost.

On a different tangent, now we know why the resin bases look so amatuerish. It'd be arguable if that was a legitimate expense, as while it (and the SDF-1, and the 3D prints of the AValk and YF-4) was being worked on for Kickstarter fulfillment, it WAS done after PB claims they were running insolvent, and therefore it could be argued it was never going to be delivered.

Can anyone else think of anything I missed? Cause if we do get a full accounting, it'll be helpful to have a list of things that PB might claim that are easily disqualifiable.

If there was a pot of money at the end, PB were entitled to that. But until all Kickstarter rewards have been fulfilled, all funds from the Kickstarter need to be spent on the Kickstarter, and not other business expenses.

Morgan Vening wrote:
I was reading through the comments across multiple threads, and saw several others echoing my thoughts about expenses.

So I thought I might put together a list of things that PB may have spent money on, that might be considered misappropriation.

- Advertising beyond May 21st, 2013 (Any advertising after that point was not for the Kickstarter, as they didn't offer a publicly available "Late Pledge", therefore it was for retail content, which is not a Kickstarter reward).
- Any funds spent on dealing with distributors and retailers, if any. (I know some developers wine and dine, etc. Yup, not a Kickstarter expense).
- Convention expenses, including booth space and hotel rooms, that didn't fall between at least a few months before the original campaign period and arguably, the end of the Pledge Manager period. (Given that rewards were not able to be picked up at GenCon 2014, regardless of them being unable to get it there, this was again for retail content). And even funds spent during that time would need to be prorated against other things Palladium were promoting during that time.
- Development and any print runs of the original Kickstarter Exclusives (not initially available to Kickstarter Backers). Don't know if this applies to the final 4 made, but I'm pretty sure it would.
- A portion of the licensing fees (not royalties, that is fully justified), for Kickstarter rewards only. Meaning the value of Kickstarter rewards as a portion of the total against retail sales, and whatever paltry sum they make on RPG books, do not count.
- The explicit manufacture of any product not required for Kickstarter fulfillment (which we know is at least 10K Core boxes, and lord knows how many Expansion Boxes)
- The importation of those products not required for Kickstarter fulfillment.

All development costs, up to and including mold manufacture, are legitmate expenses. That's the point of Kickstarter, that backers pay for that part, so that retail is more profitable for the Creator as a cost.

On a different tangent, now we know why the resin bases look so amatuerish. It'd be arguable if that was a legitimate expense, as while it (and the SDF-1, and the 3D prints of the AValk and YF-4) was being worked on for Kickstarter fulfillment, it WAS done after PB claims they were running insolvent, and therefore it could be argued it was never going to be delivered.

Can anyone else think of anything I missed? Cause if we do get a full accounting, it'll be helpful to have a list of things that PB might claim that are easily disqualifiable.

If there was a pot of money at the end, PB were entitled to that. But until all Kickstarter rewards have been fulfilled, all funds from the Kickstarter need to be spent on the Kickstarter, and not other business expenses.

I've been thinking of something. You guys need to screen shot the official announcement where Palladium admits they ran out of money after Wave 1. I think it could be used as evidence that PB's been lying through omission since then with every update that didn't mention the status of the funds.

Morgan Vening wrote:

All development costs, up to and including mold manufacture, are legitmate expenses. That's the point of Kickstarter, that backers pay for that part, so that retail is more profitable for the Creator as a cost.

PB cites a total of $364,193.74 under Design, for Artwork, 3D sculpts, 3D prints, ND participation, so not including mold cutting ($75k by update). Kevin then undercuts that by saying they bought the ND 3D designs for $35,000, and paid the manufacturer $21,000 for 3D file corrections and prototypes by the manufacturer.

So there's a huge discrepancy of $288,193.74 unaccounted for under design. That's a LOT of money, which I don't think can be accounted for by artwork. And if ND is charging that much for participation... I suspect some other hanky panky.

The manufacturing costs of $601K includes mold cutting ($75k by Kevin's own admission), but that cost is also crowded in by his retail purchase. Still, overall we're still looking at nearly $0.5mil with shady accounting. The amount is large enough that I'm suspecting fingers on the till.

Incidentally, we know they brought in 9 container load of Wave 1 inventory, for $76k in import costs. A rough estimate is that 5~6 container load would have been sufficient for wave 1 KS fulfilment, and that would roughly be $40k in import costs, leaving $36k as "bad accounting". In the overall scheme of things, that is not very significant as costs go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other entertaining thought would be...

After March, who would own the steel molds used in production? It's unlikely PB brought them back to the US, so it's likely sitting with the Chinese factory folks. Is HG going to send someone over to ensure the mold is either destroyed or retrieved?

My guess is that the factory would recycle the mold, but there's every possibility that they would spin a quick cycle and push those out as some bootleg products.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

All development costs, up to and including mold manufacture, are legitmate expenses. That's the point of Kickstarter, that backers pay for that part, so that retail is more profitable for the Creator as a cost.

PB cites a total of $364,193.74 under Design, for Artwork, 3D sculpts, 3D prints, ND participation, so not including mold cutting ($75k by update). Kevin then undercuts that by saying they bought the ND 3D designs for $35,000, and paid the manufacturer $21,000 for 3D file corrections and prototypes by the manufacturer.

So there's a huge discrepancy of $288,193.74 unaccounted for under design. That's a LOT of money, which I don't think can be accounted for by artwork. And if ND is charging that much for participation... I suspect some other hanky panky.

The manufacturing costs of $601K includes mold cutting ($75k by Kevin's own admission), but that cost is also crowded in by his retail purchase. Still, overall we're still looking at nearly $0.5mil with shady accounting. The amount is large enough that I'm suspecting fingers on the till.

Incidentally, we know they brought in 9 container load of Wave 1 inventory, for $76k in import costs. A rough estimate is that 5~6 container load would have been sufficient for wave 1 KS fulfilment, and that would roughly be $40k in import costs, leaving $36k as "bad accounting". In the overall scheme of things, that is not very significant as costs go.

Oh, it's absolutely clear that the current accounting appears to be the greatest work of fiction PB have produced in their long storied history.

But given that it's not just obviously erroneous, it is also massively lacking in detail, it's hard to draw a real analysis of the budgetary process. My point more that if a full accounting is received (and Kevin claims to have it), the costs associated with the expenses I mentioned should be immediately challenged.

Oh, one thing I did miss. Any expenses that are being held behind a NDA? You can tack those on to the "Not a Kickstarter expense". If PB can't accurately account for it in a manner that can't be verified, for whatever reason, it shouldn't count at all.

EDIT : It's possible the manufacturer might spin them up, but the cost of starting a production run, versus making a profit on the secondary market, makes it probably not worth that much to do so. And if the company was that sketchy (and working for PB, I wouldn't rule it out), then they would have done it already. Print off 20,000 copies, ship PB their ~17,000, and stockpile the rest. That's what the companies that GW ran afoul of, appeared to do.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Oh, it's absolutely clear that the current accounting appears to be the greatest work of fiction PB have produced in their long storied history.

But given that it's not just obviously erroneous, it is also massively lacking in detail, it's hard to draw a real analysis of the budgetary process. My point more that if a full accounting is received (and Kevin claims to have it), the costs associated with the expenses I mentioned should be immediately challenged.

Agreed. I can accept that there are NDAs that PB cannot fully reveal, but there's probably a way to explain it. I do believe PB has enough receipts to talk about things, it's just that they choose not to talk about it. To be honest, PB's history with financial accounting is not good, but they are not so much a perpetrator of financial issues, but more of victims of financial stupid. Too stupid to understand how to do it properly, and too stupid to hire people who do.

Morgan Vening wrote:

EDIT : It's possible the manufacturer might spin them up, but the cost of starting a production run, versus making a profit on the secondary market, makes it probably not worth that much to do so. And if the company was that sketchy (and working for PB, I wouldn't rule it out), then they would have done it already. Print off 20,000 copies, ship PB their ~17,000, and stockpile the rest. That's what the companies that GW ran afoul of, appeared to do.

I seriously suspect the manufacturer they went with isn't totally on the up and up. Even given the unreliable narrator that PB is, that they had issues with file formats that needed that much money to fix, that they had so much costs involved even with 9 container loads of inventory... I strongly suspect that PB, being inexperienced and not willing to do due diligence, got themselves seriously led around by the nose.

Just to be clear, I'm not excusing PB on their accountability and responsibility for the mess. As the owner, they own the problems too. PB's habit of trying to throw other parties under the bus is well known, but at the end of the day they must take the responsibility of their practices.

I will say I find the prices of the pdfs for their wave 2 swap are set so high kinda weird. Anyone can look at drivethrurpg and see they are on sale for a third of the cost they are setting for them in the announcement.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

Oh, it's absolutely clear that the current accounting appears to be the greatest work of fiction PB have produced in their long storied history.

But given that it's not just obviously erroneous, it is also massively lacking in detail, it's hard to draw a real analysis of the budgetary process. My point more that if a full accounting is received (and Kevin claims to have it), the costs associated with the expenses I mentioned should be immediately challenged.

Agreed. I can accept that there are NDAs that PB cannot fully reveal, but there's probably a way to explain it. I do believe PB has enough receipts to talk about things, it's just that they choose not to talk about it. To be honest, PB's history with financial accounting is not good, but they are not so much a perpetrator of financial issues, but more of victims of financial stupid. Too stupid to understand how to do it properly, and too stupid to hire people who do.

I'd want an explicit reason for the NDA, not some throwaway line, along with the dollar value, and EXACTLY what the money was for. Redact the names and company identifying marks from the invoices and receipts, if that's what gets them around the NDA. But everything else needs to be included, or it means taking Kevin at his word. And I don't think anyone but the white knights would take that.

Alternately, an independent and trusted authority (a sworn member from the Michigan Attorney's Office?) who is familiar enough with the case to know what they're looking at, reading those reciepts and stating the reported value is accurate.

Remember, Kevin said this.
"If there were ever any type of investigation, Palladium has accurate records, receipts, correspondences and documentation for every expense and transaction we’ve made regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™."

No mention of NDA's preventing them from disclosing that information. And as the project has failed, there NEEDS to be an investigation into exactly what went wrong, why it went wrong, and when it went wrong. Because it's possible that some people might have been able to legally obtain chargebacks if PB hadn't lead the backers on for ~3 years beyond when they claimed they were out of money.

I'm glad Discover's policy is a lot more open, but I know my bank refused back in mid March of 2014, as all of my funding was taken during the campaign, and none during the PledgeManager. And 180 days had passed by that point, and would have regardless, as 180 days from September 8th was March 7th, two weeks before I requested that refund. But others might have fallen within the timeframe of their bank if PB had been up front, but aren't now, because it's almost FIVE years since payments were processed.

 ProfessorSinu wrote:
I will say I find the prices of the pdfs for their wave 2 swap are set so high kinda weird. Anyone can look at drivethrurpg and see they are on sale for a third of the cost they are setting for them in the announcement.

But of course.

It's not actually money for Wave 2 fulfillment, it's matching 'value'. DTRPG sales are 'real money', someone's actually handing over that five bucks or whatever, so it's worth caring about and trying entice people to get while they still can (gotta push that Fear Of Missing Out), but for backers they want to inflate it as much as possible to eat into what they have to try to pay them off with. Doubly so with pdfs, they don't even have to worry about shipping those, or running out of Consclusives or whatever.

That bit of snark aside, it's darkly hilarious. Someone gets in right now? They can buy up the books for pennies on the dollar. Give them money 4-5 years ago? Guess you're paying full price for something you didn't want in the first place!

https://twitter.com/TalonZahn/status/969785220772835328


Tweeting PA, I know Forar is over there also, not sure if anyone else from here is.

I hope that anyone planning to go after Palladium for funds is saving all of the updates, various comments and private messages on KS because if they opt to pull a Prodos and have the page taken down due to "IP disputes" everything that's been posted to date will be taken down and it'll go completely dark. They're a bunch of thieves who are going to try covering their tracks in any fashion they can so it's best that people start saving all of the info they need now.

The updates shouldn't be too hard to come by. Unless someone has opted out of getting updates in general, or the email editions, emailed copies go out. I know Morgan has been saving them, and I'm sure he's not the only one, intentionally or otherwise.

The comments they've made could go away (but there's not that many, one copy/paste into a text file would capture them, a "save to pdf" for the page itself, and you'd have most of the pertinent info there. Main thing you'd be missing would be backer comments (update and non alike), but I doubt those would be considered evidence of much other than us being really chatty over the years.

Same thing with Palladium newsletters, they go out to enough people I doubt it's really possible to eliminate them, and any attempt to do so would immediately spur people onto collecting them together.

I went through and screen shotted every update in case they go down (ala Prodos' AVP schtick) last week before the big announcement back when the news about someone serving palladium written notice came out. I haven't done the more recent ones since the Crisis of RobotreacheryTM started.

I'm surprised they haven't tried their gen con forced vote tactic and claim that a non-reply for wave two replacements means you're satisfied with not getting wave 2 items and thus their end of the KS is fulfilled.

 warboss wrote:
I went through and screen shotted every update in case they go down (ala Prodos' AVP schtick) last week before the big announcement back when the news about someone serving palladium written notice came out. I haven't done the more recent ones since the Crisis of RobotreacheryTM started.

The KS page been saved a couple of times in the past to the "Wayback Machine" and i just saved it again, it doesnt matter if the page goes dark like AvP you can still access the page,comments and updates + update comments like norm

Robotechs Wayback page: https://web.archive.org/web/20180303200243/https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/description

just to show it works have a scroll around AvPs page.

AvPs Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20131130145155/http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game

An article, although I find it EXTREMELY lacking.

https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2018/3/2/17071612/robotech-rpg-tactics-kickstarter-disaster-palladium-books

 warboss wrote:
I went through and screen shotted every update in case they go down (ala Prodos' AVP schtick) last week before the big announcement back when the news about someone serving palladium written notice came out. I haven't done the more recent ones since the Crisis of RobotreacheryTM started.

Oooh - that's a good one!

Let's go with that one...

Remember backers, the TOS does entitle you to a refund from the creator of the KS, not from Kickstarter itself. Feel free to complete a chargeback if you can.

My response to ALL of this is still....

HAHAHAHAHA

 jaymz wrote:
My response to ALL of this is still....

HAHAHAHAHA

Yeah I agree...but at the same time I don't want to revel in the misery of backers :/ that could happen to us some day.

 jaymz wrote:
My response to ALL of this is still....

HAHAHAHAHA

At this point, you're kind of coming off like a Rick (and something else that rhymes with it) frankly by revelling in it again. Yes, pretty much all of us who have generated hundreds to thousands of comments (mostly critical) over the past 4 years saw this coming. That doesn't mean it's actually funny. Gullible or not, there are people who have only peripherally followed this with a laize faire attitude who are only now finding out that their hard earned money was wasted.

BTW, while I know Prodos got away with taking down their KS through a bit of trickery, PB *should* not be able to get the RRT kickstarter down in March.

As part of the TOS, the rights for the images & content of the KS page was given to KS itself; in essence, even if PB loses the licenses to continue the kickstarter, the images, comments and the KS page itself copyrights belong to KS "for marketing and display" purposes. Someone with a link to the old KS TOS can probably point out the relevant lines.

If PB does try to get the KS page taken down, I think that will put them into further legal hot water. And it could make KS culpable for collusion in attempting to conceal a "crime" - though I'm not a legal person in this by any means.

A - you guys can look at me anyway you want as frankly I don't care

B - if they put money into something then don't follow it that's their problem not mine since this gak show has been burning in this manner for years

C - you're damn right I'm revelling in this. You have any idea how much gak was thrown at me since washed my hands of this disaster? Years of it now. This is vindication for the vilification I endured. So screw those who only now feel they've gotten screwed over by this utterly incompetent boob and his "company" and use the term company VERY loosely.

 jaymz wrote:
you're damn right I'm revelling in this. You have any idea how much gak was thrown at me since washed my hands of this disaster? Years of it now. This is vindication for the vilification I endured. So screw those who only now feel they've gotten screwed over by this utterly incompetent boob and his "company" and use the term company VERY loosely.

How much of that "vilification" did you endure here? Do you really think that in this 400 page thread of complaints (the second one btw) added to by dozens of posters that you and you alone are the only one who was "vilified" for foretelling gloom and doom?

 jaymz wrote:
A - you guys can look at me anyway you want as frankly I don't care

B - if they put money into something then don't follow it that's their problem not mine since this gak show has been burning in this manner for years

C - you're damn right I'm revelling in this. You have any idea how much gak was thrown at me since washed my hands of this disaster? Years of it now. This is vindication for the vilification I endured. So screw those who only now feel they've gotten screwed over by this utterly incompetent boob and his "company" and use the term company VERY loosely.

WTF are you talking about? And if you really had washed your hands of this disaster, you wouldn't be posting back here like a small child saying "I told you so!"

What vilification did you face? I don't even remember reading anything by you one way or another about this entire topic. I'm pretty sure whatever point or statement you were trying to make was lost or drown out by all the other posters in this thread. The only person around here that remembers vilifying you is... you. Coming back into this thread to point that out... OK small child. You have made your point. Why don't you go play somewhere else now?

Reveling in the pain of others, no matter how much pain they inflicted on you, is small and petty. Be better then that!

 Tamwulf wrote:

 jaymz wrote:
A - you guys can look at me anyway you want as frankly I don't care
B - if they put money into something then don't follow it that's their problem not mine since this gak show has been burning in this manner for years
C - you're damn right I'm revelling in this. You have any idea how much gak was thrown at me since washed my hands of this disaster? Years of it now. This is vindication for the vilification I endured. So screw those who only now feel they've gotten screwed over by this utterly incompetent boob and his "company" and use the term company VERY loosely.

WTF are you talking about? And if you really had washed your hands of this disaster, you wouldn't be posting back here like a small child saying "I told you so!"
What vilification did you face? I don't even remember reading anything by you one way or another about this entire topic. I'm pretty sure whatever point or statement you were trying to make was lost or drown out by all the other posters in this thread. The only person around here that remembers vilifying you is... you. Coming back into this thread to point that out... OK small child. You have made your point. Why don't you go play somewhere else now?
Reveling in the pain of others, no matter how much pain they inflicted on you, is small and petty. Be better then that!

Tamwulf wrote that very well.
I have to agree the vindication and gloating seems... misdirected.
By all means, feel free to steer that towards Palladium Books.
I am unsure what advice that was given resulted in pushback in jaymz's direction.
People just wanted their stuff or their money.
I do not think jaymz cornered the market on thinking PB was not going to finish this project... it seemed rather obvious if not initially, as the years dragged on.

Gloating over other's misfortune, especially when undeserved, is just bad behavior.
I think I would prefer the feedback from the few remaining "White Knights" than this kind of thing, at least it has some comic relief value.

I mean, if someone here gave Jaymz particular grief, sure, that's worthy of some ire and mockery, but I think we've been fairly Palladium Defender(tm) free, and even those who have gone above and beyond the call of duty to provide PB benefit of the doubt here have been fairly quiet (if not silent) for ages now.

I don't doubt you (Jaymz) got some flack, between the Wiki and forums and whatever else you were involved in. But why bother dropping snark bombs here about it? We were there too, and while there is a measure of closure with PB admitting defeat and being beset by legions of pissed off backers and credit card refund charges, that doesn't change the hundreds of dollars lost by many of us (if not substantially more), nor the hundreds of hours (and that's probably a low estimate) spent keeping their feet to the fire, calling out their bullgak, and even just venting here with likeminded folks. It's a bittersweet victory, even with a product I was unhappy with, I just wanted them to finish it so I could sell the rest off and wash my hands of it.

If this brings Palladium down, I'll consider that to be a cherry on top of this gak sundae, but in terms of resources spent trying to make them just do the things they said they'd do for years, it's still a somewhat hollow victory.

I don't say it lightly that the camaraderie found here and elsewhere has made the frustration vastly more bearable, so in a 80's After School Special, the real value was found in the friends we made along the way ( :-D ), but it won't stop from being a shame to watch an IP we all cherish continue to languish (not that HG is helping that any), or reduce the missed opportunities that were present. PB's mismanagement, their inability to see the forest for the trees, their focus on idiotic minutia while the macro scale elements fell apart, it rests on them. If the PB forums or Jaymz's forums or whatever provided ire and frustration, yeah, that sucks.

But let's remember that this isn't the PB forums. It's moderated by fair minded benevolent overlords folks who aren't just looking to sweep uncomfortable truths under the rug. So, yeah, go have a laugh on the Megaversal Forums, as I see you (Jaymz) have, but here? Really? I think we've striven for a higher level of discourse, and it seems misplaced to include this thread's generally genial participants under that line of fire.

Edit: to clarify, the original post that kicked this all off (HAHAHAHA etc), fine, whatever. Its the reaction following it I find weirdest. Citing mistreatment seems questionable, as very few who'd behave that way have managed to stick around for long here. Yes, you have said for ages 'PB is out of money/won't complete/etc', but... so have many of us. And many of us were there taking lumps from the white knights and defenders and fan friends in comments across the interwebs. We need not have an accounting of who suffered more, you certainly tried your hardest to make it work with the resources you had, nobody doubts you got some gak. But we're here with you, also tired of the muck flinging, lies, and shenanigans that have haunted this campaign for years.

Jaymz , I seem to remember that you were the one years back who passed on the insider comment that the money had all gone and wave 2 was not happenning, but I do not remember people coming after you with pitchforks. Sre at times there are little spats as people argue over speculation or a daft idea, but in the main it is part and parcel of the thread.

At the end of the day the target for abuse has always been Palladium.

This thread, the KS comments section and even the Palladium forums have been a place to vent my dismay and anger at palladium and their incompetance but it has also been being part of a community who will never ever meet face to face but share a common like for an old cartoon seriesand had hoped to play with some toys ased on it

I wonder if Kevin plans to retire and sell off PB or declare bankruptcy after this, because he knows he has sank his company with this.

WTF Jaymz? I think we've been pretty consistently recognizing that it's PB as the problem ever since the first sign of slippage. For you to act like this? Uncool.

>complains about villification
>acts like a villain

Have any of Kevin's moderator apologists stopped by to say, "you don't understaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand"?

Here? No, I wouldn't say so.

In the comments or elsewhere? Eh. I'd say the closest I've seen to 'support' at this point are a few people who have claimed themselves content with what they received in wave one, or incredibly generously understanding of the alleged troubles that led to this situation.

Actual full throated defenders have been somewhat rarer. A few voices like Bad_Syntax seem to be mostly stirring up trouble for the sake of trolling angry backers more than actual defense of the project/company in question.

But there's enough gak being flung about, that's not an exhaustive list, and I've certainly skipped some comments here and there, as it has been a busy week.

SO I have $90 in credit, is it worth the energy to gamble I might get something?

If you are willing to spend money to ship it to India, sure, Kev will send you stuff. But that's a lot of good money to throw after bad. I'd push chargeback and refund first.

I'm going back to the States this summer so shipping is not an issue.

I'd be tempted to let it go, the money is long forgotten anyway but I like the idea of inconveniencing them however slightly.

Besides I did buy into this because I wanted to have some destroids...

So yeah, 3 boxes of destroids and a convention Valkyrie.

I'd be curious to know

A) How many took the the deal

B) How many they actually get shipped out before the window they can sell/trade is gone.

I'm pretty sure B > A ...

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd be curious to know

A) How many took the the deal

B) How many they actually get shipped out before the window they can sell/trade is gone.

I'm pretty sure B > A ...

I don't know about the others, but I plan to hold out to see if Kickstarter will force them to give us refunds.
If they don't that means the door is open for other creators to not follow their terms of service without no recourse.

 Genoside07 wrote:


I don't know about the others, but I plan to hold out to see if Kickstarter will force them to give us refunds.
If they don't that means the door is open for other creators to not follow their terms of service without no recourse.

Zero chance of Kickstarter doing anything like even making a specific statement let alone forcing them to do anything. About the only thing that may "force" Palladium to do anything is if more and more people are successful in getting their claims accepted with various credit card companies and paypal.

I was initially thinking I might as well take the deal.
Then I thought what the odds would be that I actually RECEIVE anything?
It could be another fun round of "working on it" or even better, "we ran out of stock" or any of their other excuses.
It would be a "fun" situation to be in to be owed "credit" for RRT but the IP is expired so... you get nothing!

Putting anything within their control is a sucker's game.

 Genoside07 wrote:


I don't know about the others, but I plan to hold out to see if Kickstarter will force them to give us refunds.
If they don't that means the door is open for other creators to not follow their terms of service without no recourse.

Kickstarter won't do anything. They didn't do anything when the projects were obvious scams like the Doom that Came to Atlantic City game, where the government prosecuted that guy and KS still had "project we love" displayed on it.

Palladium will probably be working on it, not send anything, but still try to hold people to the contract they are including with each trade that the contract is settled.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I plan to hold out to see if Kickstarter will force them to give us refunds..

Kickstarter won't do squat.

But a class action lawsuit may...

Js379 wrote:
First time poster here. Regarding PB changing the terms of their agreement via their response email, it works like this. The Uniform Commerce Code did away with the Mirror Image rule, which used to require that an acceptance of a contract had to accept the contract under the terms it was offered. That is no longer the case. The other party can accept a contract while changing the terms. If they choose to do so, it is up to the originating party to then refuse the altered terms. If they did not specifically refuse the new terms, then the contract is binding. So if you ask for wave one stuff and PB responds by saying "sure, and btw, this means you forfeit any future claims" then that is binding unless you respond with a statement specifically stating that you do not accept those terms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, this is under US standards, international standards still maintain the Mirror Image rule.

Yep, you are correct that the UCC does away with the mirror image rule. What you are forgetting is that PB lost protection of the UCC under (off the top of my head) sections: 2-201, 2-301, 2-602, 2-607, 2-609, etc.

2-301 is what really kills them. PB voided their protection under the UCC and simply do not get it.

If this went to trial (and I'm guessing it never will), PB's lawyer will certainly cite UCC. We other side will just say, that PB did not operate "in good faith", which is defined (legally) as: "good faith in the case of a merchant means honesty in fact and the observance of reasonable commercial standards of fair dealing in the trade". PB did not operation "in good" faith, hence UCC doesn't apply.

Contracts are a 2-way street. And in the USA, Various measures exist to generally give fair information to both parties (discovery, static terms, etc). PB clearly had some very loose contract with us KS backers (the ToS) and PB clearly did not share all of the info with us. Later PB asked us to enter into a new agreement (hence changing the KS ToS) and did that without offering the correct info.

Nothing PB did will stand up in any court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n815e wrote:

evancich wrote:
Don't forget you'll have to explain Robotech, mini war gaming and PB to the judge.

As a grown person.

Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.

And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was giving an analogy of what the legal bars are.

Lowest in MD is a temp peace order, which is about 51%. The other is 91%, almost twice.

Do you think anybody here in a few hours can talk a judge into that PB isn't "working" on it? When the bar is that much higher?

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

You will likely have a judge that has never seen a VT.
Awesome, you get to explain Robotech to them. Also, war gaming. How long do you think that will take? An hour? 2? Your lawyer is charging you $400/hour to do this.

Ok, Judge understands Robotech and table top gaming. Great! Why can't you play with models that look a bit different than the other models? Don't forget that laptops and phones are often banned in courts rooms. So, did you print it out? If you did, that just cost you some para-legal time. Woot! Assuming the judge can tell the difference between the weapon load out or the red and white VT is different than yellow and black VT and we NEED different models for both.

Cool, PB's lawyer allowed you to go down a rabbit-hole to explain this.

Back when I first posted this, PB could just say, we are working on it.

Now, PB can just say
"Your, honor, we tried. We got in over our heads and spent all of the money to satisfy a demanding customer base. We couldn't and we failed. The KS ToS say we owe refunds. We simply don't have the money to do that. We offered them vary similar products in an effort to make them whole."

We live in a very, very small hobby. You are incorrect in believing that a judge will understand or care about the differences in various VTs.

In law, you never ever want to appear before a judge. You always, always want to settle.

The judge could just look at this and say: fine PB made a reasonable offer, they lost the license, and are out of $. End of case.
or
PB has a chance at various bankruptcies
or
This was a bad suit and the backers owe PB's lawyer costs
or
PB has money left over from the KS and that isn't enough to make the new toys, but PB gets to keep the money and the backers that didn't take the deal are out.

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I don't understand why one needs to fall down the rabbit hole of 'what is Robotech' and 'what is a VT'.

"Palladium Books agreed to provide an explicit list of items in exchange for backing for a certain dollar value. I paid to receive X, Y, and Z in their pledge manager, of which only X was delivered. Kickstarter ToU as of the time of that campaign states that if a Creator is unable to produce some or all of a product, they are to provide refunds for the missing items/elements. Palladium's own words indicate that if they are unable to complete the project, they will provide refunds."

Getting into the weeds of miniature gaming seems like a lost cause. It's a transaction that they specified an outcome to (delivery or refund) and are now refusing to make good on the refund element. If we're being unreasonably generous, one might write off the remnants of the Battle Cry tiers. But the pledge manager involved explicitly paying $X for Product Y.

They say that the KS money is gone, then they should be able to prove that with detailed receipts, that do not show that they over-purchased Wave One stock with KS funds, or spent an egregious amount of it on funding their other projects and keeping the lights on. Or flat out mismanaged/getting swindled by other companies. Wyrd manages to product dozens of figures of varying sizes in plastic every year, I doubt they're paying 1.5m per dozen (as an example of another small company in the industry).

And (again, not a lawyer), I don't see why they'd be limited to supplying refunds purely from remaining KS money (if any). They have stock on hand, they have sales, hell they're probably going to take some money in from whatever fire sale they have on remaining RRT product. If they were being reasonable'ish and offering a pennies on the dollar return, even one tied to their sales of the remaining RRT stock, at least it'd be something.

The KS terms and PB's own words said they'd offer a refund. Not "we'll offer a refund if it's convenient".

If they didn't want to end up in a state where they'd only be able to pay off a portion of what backers are owed through essentially committing company suicide, maybe they should've thought harder about that while they fethed us around for the last 3'ish years (counting the production and shipping of Wave One as the semi-pre-fethery period, or the "not at egregiously fething with us" period). And does that not matter at all? Proclaiming all is well for year after year, until suddenly the other shoe drops? That might not be explicitly illegal (misrepresentation? Fraud? I don't know, see the often repeated "not a lawyer" part of this), but it's shady as feth. It makes all of their updates, especially since Scott came onboard, less about informing us, and more about delaying potential backer legal action. Which a lot of us called at the time. He was literally the new name spouting the old lies.

The 'omg it's about toys lawl' thing has come up in a number of conversations on the KS comments. This isn't a new line of discourse. It is also, imo (again, not a lawyer) a red herring. I don't care if it was beanie babies. If someone takes in 1.5m or so, and for that money they say they'll deliver products, and fails to do so, that seems like a problem.

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING TIME.

Again.

RULE #1 IS "BE POLITE".

It is a MANDATORY condition of posting here on Dakka Dakka.

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Palladium will probably be working on it, not send anything, but still try to hold people to the contract they are including with each trade that the contract is settled.

That might allow them to close your book on Wave 2, but I'd think you could then get them on non-delivery of the substitute items. Don't worry, I'm sure they'll offer some other exchange, say 1/4 value of the offered wave 1 exchange itens for full retail value crap from their catalog. You'll just have to pay shipping again.

 Forar wrote:
I am definitely not a lawyer, but I don't understand why one needs to fall down the rabbit hole of 'what is Robotech' and 'what is a VT'.

"Palladium Books agreed to provide an explicit list of items in exchange for backing for a certain dollar value. I paid to receive X, Y, and Z in their pledge manager, of which only X was delivered. Kickstarter ToU as of the time of that campaign states that if a Creator is unable to produce some or all of a product, they are to provide refunds for the missing items/elements. Palladium's own words indicate that if they are unable to complete the project, they will provide refunds."

Getting into the weeds of miniature gaming seems like a lost cause. It's a transaction that they specified an outcome to (delivery or refund) and are now refusing to make good on the refund element. If we're being unreasonably generous, one might write off the remnants of the Battle Cry tiers. But the pledge manager involved explicitly paying $X for Product Y.

They say that the KS money is gone, then they should be able to prove that with detailed receipts, that do not show that they over-purchased Wave One stock with KS funds, or spent an egregious amount of it on funding their other projects and keeping the lights on.

And (again, not a lawyer), I don't see why they'd be limited to supplying refunds purely from remaining KS money (if any). They have stock on hand, they have sales, hell they're probably going to take some money in from whatever fire sale they have on remaining RRT product. If they were being reasonable'ish and offering a pennies on the dollar return, even one tied to their sales of the remaining RRT stock, at least it'd be something.

The KS terms and PB's own words said they'd offer a refund. Not "we'll offer a refund if it's convenient".

If they didn't want to end up in a state where they'd only be able to pay off a portion of what backers are owed through essentially committing company suicide, maybe they should've thought harder about that while they fethed us around for the last 3'ish years (counting the production and shipping of Wave One as the semi-pre-fethery period, or the "not at egregiously fething with us" period).

The 'omg it's about toys lawl' thing has come up in a number of conversations on the KS comments. This isn't a new line of discourse. It is also, imo (again, not a lawyer) a red herring. I don't care if it was beanie babies. If someone takes in 1.5m or so, and for that money they say they'll delivery products, and fails to do so, that seems like a problem.

I hate doing law talking on the tubes...

Again, never appear before a judge if you can avoid it.

Neither side and none of the lawyers can give certainty about what the judge will key on.

Judge A might be ok with being ignorant of the Robotech case they are hearing and might blow by it

Judge B might full stop and want to see the show, models, etc

The judges are figuring out if these small differences in the toys are material.

evancich wrote:
I hate doing law talking on the tubes...

Again, never appear before a judge if you can avoid it.

Neither side and none of the lawyers can give certainty about what the judge will key on.

Judge A might be ok with being ignorant of the Robotech case they are hearing and might blow by it

Judge B might full stop and want to see the show, models, etc

The judges are figuring out if these small differences in the toys are material.

That isn't what I asked, though. This conversation went down the weeds of how explaining Rick Hunter's Limited Edition Veritech Fighter/Guardian/Battloid (or whatever) would be a waste of time. I'm asking why it'd even be necessary. Surely 'X Company failed to deliver after promising us everything was fiiiiine' is worth discussing regardless of what the product is?

I'm not disputing that settling is the smarter play, but that point was brought up, and as a non-lawyer I'm curious why it wouldn't be as simple as "I paid for *items*, they failed to deliver most of them, and both KS's ToU and their own fething statements indicate they owe us a refund."

That seems like a pretty simple question.

But, again, for like the eighth time. I'm not a lawyer. So I'm asking the lawyers in the thread for context.

Edit: you do touch upon this, and I get that the judges can be mercurial or more/less demanding of context, but that wasn't my initial read. Looking over the response again and Alpharius' followup, it makes a little more sense.

As with many things, I recognize that how the legal system works and how random laypeople around the world think it should work are often two very different things.

I think it would come down to "taking things to trial is never a sure thing" AND 'taking PB to court means bankruptcy for PB if you win' and while I realize that many would be OK with that, it does mean that a substantial number of people will be getting nothing.

In particular, the Wave 2 adds are the obvious thing: "I pre-paid $40 for this item that they said they were required to refund if they couldn't deliver. They now say they can't deliver, so I want my refund. Refund me my $40 back"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
I think it would come down to "taking things to trial is never a sure thing" AND 'taking PB to court means bankruptcy for PB if you win' and while I realize that many would be OK with that, it does mean that a substantial number of people will be getting nothing.

A substantial number of people are getting nothing anyways. PB going BK is fine.

Trying to make my way through the hundreds of pages of comments. Wondering if there is a quick summary for those of us who did not participate in the Kickstarter?

evancich wrote:
Neither side and none of the lawyers can give certainty about what the judge will key on.

Judge A might be ok with being ignorant of the Robotech case they are hearing and might blow by it

Judge B might full stop and want to see the show, models, etc

The judges are figuring out if these small differences in the toys are material.

It depends, what court system and what country are we talking about? If we are talking about the US, then it depends on if this falls within Civil or Criminal trial. You really want it to fall under Civil.

Criminal court, with a jury, requires proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. The Judge doesn't make any rulings, his purpose is to just make sure the letter of the law of followed (ie: Jury understand what is evidence, not evidence and lawyers are doing their part). An example is, Person-A car window is fine. Person-B walked by the car window and now Person-A car window is broken. A criminal trial requires complete evidence that Person-B did the crime. There has to be evidence that supports and shows, they were the ones who actually broke the car window.

Civil court case, with a jury (which is what this tends to fall under), does not require proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. It only has to be plausible. Using the same example above, Person-A car window is fine. Person-B walked by the car and now Person-A car window is broken. In a civil case, you only have to show enough evidence to make it plausible that Person-B did the crime. You could show video, evidence showing that 8:00PM the car window was fine, Person-A was near the car at 8:10PM, 8:15PM evidence that car window is broken. Providing you can provide enough questionable evidence to show no one else was near the car, the jury could make a probably leap that Person-B was involved even though there is no evidence showing them actually doing the crime.

When it comes to Jury, there is an art to picking your jury. Depending on how many jury members are needed, usually, 3-4 times that amount of jurers are in for the selection process. Through a various set of questions, they sort through the jurers. They tend to remove people who have a lot of 'opinions' and definitely remove those somehow connected or related to the case in question. Those that tend to be quiet, less responses are wild cards. Those that are way biased one direction or another are fine. Each side gets to excuse X amount of people, sort of a, they are excused no matter what. The art is you don't remove the biased jurers on your side, you let the opposing lawyer do that. Sometimes though if they weeded through the selection process correctly, there are too many biased to matter. Laywers don't like those that aren't biased to a degree because they aren't sure how you'll vote based on the evidence. It is essentially drafting at the core, if you have ever played a competitive TCG event before.

Based on the evidence and jurors selection, there is a 60-75% chance one can accurately predict the outcomes of the cases. There are some last items that can throw a wrench into the works, evidence, etc but for the most part the case battle really depends on the selection process. I've seen juries, since they are randomly pulled from a selection of people everyone is biased towards the prosecutor side or defense. If there happens to not be enough jurors because they weeded out too many, they will tend to ask for another batch.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Trying to make my way through the hundreds of pages of comments. Wondering if there is a quick summary for those of us who did not participate in the Kickstarter?

Goes something like this: PB f**ks up, as expected. Tries to throw partners under bus, as expected. Offer bad deals to backers, in lieu of fulfillment, as expected. Backers not happy, as expected.

Sorry, my ability to summarize this flustercluck is a bit limited at this point.

Can PB even afford a jury trial vs quicker bench trial? LOL

 techsoldaten wrote:
Trying to make my way through the hundreds of pages of comments. Wondering if there is a quick summary for those of us who did not participate in the Kickstarter?

The long and short of it is that PB sold the KS as being almost ready to go to the manufacturers, then once the KS closed, they decided to change manufacturers from the ones Ninja Division recommended. So the 3D files ND provided could not be used, and the manufacturer had to re-do them at extra costs. All the delays and faffing about raised the costs of wave one so high that Palladium knew they could not produce Wave 2 with the left overs, so they used the left over money to make more of Wave One, in the hopes of selling enough at retail to fund Wave 2.

Because the models were gak, this didn't happen, and they've been doing a song and dance for 3 years to avoid admitting it. Now they've lost the license to Robotech which means they couldn't make Wave 2 even if they had the money.

This is, BTW, on top of other shenanigans too convoluted to go into, and the exact details listed above may or may not be the actual truth, as it's coming from Palladium which has been lying though the whole process.

 John Prins wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Trying to make my way through the hundreds of pages of comments. Wondering if there is a quick summary for those of us who did not participate in the Kickstarter?

The long and short of it is that PB sold the KS as being almost ready to go to the manufacturers, then once the KS closed, they decided to change manufacturers from the ones Ninja Division recommended. So the 3D files ND provided could not be used, and the manufacturer had to re-do them at extra costs. All the delays and faffing about raised the costs of wave one so high that Palladium knew they could not produce Wave 2 with the left overs, so they used the left over money to make more of Wave One, in the hopes of selling enough at retail to fund Wave 2.

Because the models were gak, this didn't happen, and they've been doing a song and dance for 3 years to avoid admitting it. Now they've lost the license to Robotech which means they couldn't make Wave 2 even if they had the money.

This is, BTW, on top of other shenanigans too convoluted to go into, and the exact details listed above may or may not be the actual truth, as it's coming from Palladium which has been lying though the whole process.

Ack. Thank you for the summary.

There goes my dream of having a "Reconstruction Blues" themed campaign with Zentraedi Infantry. :(

I am glad I waited for stuff to hit Retail.

https://www.facebook.com/PlasticCretins/

They have made some Zentraedi infantry.

Television and movie law again.

Let's say a lawsuit is filed on a civil court. What happens with the information revealed during discovery. Is it revealed to the public? Is it placed on the court record but only viewable by parties involved in the case? Can Palladium request that it be blocked from public release? What about any NDA's involved?

I'm really curious at this point as to what actually happened, when the train left the tracks, the when the wheels fell off etc and we obviously will never get the straight truth from Kevin or Palladium. Which leaves only a lawsuit at this point. But if there are ways for them to block the release of that information we may never really know.

I'm wondering if anyone who has taken the trade deal gotten a reply? Even if a percentage of backers took the deal, that's hundreds of Orders. I've seen comments about PB not replying to emails. I'm not sure they can do such a large return in such a short span with 7 employees.

this trade credit's owed for existing product seems very unfeasible. Honestly I think they will run low or out of certain stock that is being asked for, then what's the next plan?

 dreamakuma wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone who has taken the trade deal gotten a reply? Even if a percentage of backers took the deal, that's hundreds of Orders. I've seen comments about PB not replying to emails. I'm not sure they can do such a large return in such a short span with 7 employees.

this trade credit's owed for existing product seems very unfeasible. Honestly I think they will run low or out of certain stock that is being asked for, then what's the next plan?

It’s a false scarity. Part of the problem that got PB into trouble in the first place is that they ordered enough stock to equate 3x what they initially needed for backers. They won’t be running out of stock anytime soon.

Furthermore, I’d be suprised if more than 10-30% of backers have even responded to the latest news, and of those I’m guessing less than 10% are taking PB’s crummy deal. That would put them at having to fulfill 50-150 orders. Taxing for PB, but totally manageable for any other decent company.

Well yes, of some stuff.

But I don't think many (any?) backers want another core box.

I can see PB saying, eventually, "Well, this is all we've got left, so now you get what you get and you don't get upset - and you definitely don't get a refund!"

Autarch wrote:

I'm really curious at this point as to what actually happened, when the train left the tracks, the when the wheels fell off etc and we obviously will never get the straight truth from Kevin or Palladium. Which leaves only a lawsuit at this point. But if there are ways for them to block the release of that information we may never really know.

I now wonder how much the train was on the tracks from the start.
- no realistic estimates for shipping during the campaign
- instantly disregarded ND's suggested manufacturer
- rejected ND's version of the game to make their own
- many stretch goals quite close together
- buying into their own hype (the KS is popular therefore we'll sell tons of units at retail)

Hate to say it, but the chances of a civil lawsuit resulting in a positive outcome for backers is about nil. The costs for Palladium to defend itself would likely wipe out any remaining value, they would have to declare bankruptcy just to afford a lawyer.

I hate reading this story, in part because X-Wing sucks and I would much rather be playing Robotech. Can't believe this effort was a whiff.

Autarch wrote:
Let's say a lawsuit is filed on a civil court. What happens with the information revealed during discovery. Is it revealed to the public?

Typically, companies will petition to have the discovery sealed, and they generally need a good reason to do so.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Autarch wrote:
Let's say a lawsuit is filed on a civil court. What happens with the information revealed during discovery. Is it revealed to the public?

Typically, companies will petition to have the discovery sealed, and they generally need a good reason to do so.

Likely Palladium would claim that the information about how they probably squandered backer funds on retail copies to be trade secrets that are crucial to their business model and would be devastated if other companies were let in on their "secret" strategy. In other words, they fethed up and it's embarassing.

 Stormonu wrote:

 dreamakuma wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone who has taken the trade deal gotten a reply? Even if a percentage of backers took the deal, that's hundreds of Orders. I've seen comments about PB not replying to emails. I'm not sure they can do such a large return in such a short span with 7 employees.

this trade credit's owed for existing product seems very unfeasible. Honestly I think they will run low or out of certain stock that is being asked for, then what's the next plan?

It’s a false scarity. Part of the problem that got PB into trouble in the first place is that they ordered enough stock to equate 3x what they initially needed for backers. They won’t be running out of stock anytime soon.

Furthermore, I’d be suprised if more than 10-30% of backers have even responded to the latest news, and of those I’m guessing less than 10% are taking PB’s crummy deal. That would put them at having to fulfill 50-150 orders. Taxing for PB, but totally manageable for any other decent company.

I sent a counteroffer on the 28th. So they've been swamped, they're dragging it out or have me on the haters list and are ignoring me.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Hate to say it, but the chances of a civil lawsuit resulting in a positive outcome for backers is about nil. The costs for Palladium to defend itself would likely wipe out any remaining value, they would have to declare bankruptcy just to afford a lawyer.

At this point, that would actually be considered a 'positive outcome' for many of the backers.

cannonfodr wrote:

I sent a counteroffer on the 28th. So they've been swamped, they're dragging it out or have me on the haters list and are ignoring me.

I don't think I've seen a comment by a SINGLE PERSON saying they've gotten any sort of response.

Has anyone seen one I've missed?

Yeah, I'm not normally a vengeful sort, but I'd see that as 'a Feature, not a Bug'.

It's less about demanding revenge or a pound of flesh, so much as not wanting to watch a company mismanage a project and lie to us for years, and get away from it scot-free.

Losing the Robotech license is a start, though with HG losing it themselves, that was a matter of when, not if, the license was revoked.

Some people will go on at length with fantasies of people behind bars or scrubbing floors or being left in some dead end office rut. I'm not expecting anything so dramatic. But for people who have worked in the industry for up to decades, who proclaim breathlessly on a regular basis that gaming is their lifeblood and passion, having their actions and inaction have actual ramifications might just have to suffice.

They have lied to and stolen from thousands of gamers. They shouldn't be allowed to do so again, and beyond their own failures, I think its about time that the gaming and Kickstarter community had something to point at and say "yeah, pad your numbers and timelines, don't become another Palladium".

But, again, I'm not expecting anything dramatic. If they have a fire sale and close their doors with little fanfare, okay, whatever. It won't bring me much more than a little closure and one less group of parasites living off the generosity of their little niche market.

I think that Palladium damaged the Robotech Licence and Harmony Gold did the right thing by ending it.
Wasn't there a new Robotech card game coming out this year and they said they were not allowed by Harmony Gold to use kickstarter for it..
That speaks volumes of what repercussions the RTT did.

The other thing is everyone knew something was wrong when they announced two waves... something wasn't right.. topped off by wanting to
sale first at Gen Con before any backer got their items.. That shows what kind of person Kevin is.. at the end of the day.. he would sale his grandmother
if he thought he could get away with it and make a small profit.

 Forar wrote:
Losing the Robotech license is a start, though with HG losing it themselves, that was a matter of when, not if, the license was revoked.

PB didn't "lose" the Robotech license - they couldn't afford to renew it. There's a difference. HG didn't refuse PB. They simply asked PB to pay the contractual amount by Jan 1st. When PB couldn't cough up the fee, the license expired, and the 90-day termination clause went into effect. This is entirely PB here, not HG at all, aside from HG sticking to their guns and demanding that PB either fulfill the license contract, or lose it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

PB didn't "lose" the Robotech license - they couldn't afford to renew it. There's a difference. HG didn't refuse PB. They simply asked PB to pay the contractual amount by Jan 1st. When PB couldn't cough up the fee, the license expired, and the 90-day termination clause went into effect. This is entirely PB here, not HG at all, aside from HG sticking to their guns and demanding that PB either fulfill the license contract, or lose it.

Actually, what are the odds that PB figured they can get out of the RRT KS mess by citing loss of license, and after they got rid of the stock, work with HG to regain the license for their RPG books?

Incidentally, nice avatar.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Losing the Robotech license is a start, though with HG losing it themselves, that was a matter of when, not if, the license was revoked.

PB didn't "lose" the Robotech license - they couldn't afford to renew it. There's a difference. HG didn't refuse PB. They simply asked PB to pay the contractual amount by Jan 1st. When PB couldn't cough up the fee, the license expired, and the 90-day termination clause went into effect. This is entirely PB here, not HG at all, aside from HG sticking to their guns and demanding that PB either fulfill the license contract, or lose it.

Splitting hairs. Whether they were unable to pay for it, or HG said 'nope, not interested', or a mix of the two (HG set it at a price they knew PB couldn't pay), the outcome is the same; PB no longer has access to the license.

I know pedantry is a thing we do, but I see it as 6 of one, a half dozen of the other. The particulars of how are less relevant to me than the outcome.

Edit: though HG having enough of PB's bullgak and flipping them the bird would be a nice little cherry on things, unlikely as it might be to have happened.

I dunno. I think it's more like McDonalds - the price is set.

As far as I'm concerned, whether they refund those backers that didn't take their deal and then suffer the damage to their reputation, or they go out of business defending themselves in court or they go out of business in anticipation of having to defend themselves in court, there will be consequences to their actions.

I'm not out to "destroy" them. I want them to face the consequences of their behavior and serve as an example to others not to do the same.
There is no white whale, there is just a company that ripped people off and society should not reward them for that.
I'm not Kevin's enemy, I'm one of his victims.

I'd honestly have just the same closure if they showed in court or provided complete transparency that proved that they did nothing illegal or unethical and just ruined themselves through incompetence.

Now, because they aren't forthcoming with data to prove innocent incompetence, it makes me think otherwise.

Thought crossed my mind that not paying the licensing would be a good "out" BUT having to destroy stock is definitely not what PB would want to do.
I doubt HG upped the price on the licensing, PB would be one of the few takers in town, especially with HG about to have theirs run out... I suspect they really, really, wanted PB to pony up the cash.
Sounds like a perfect storm of PB and HG with no resources to spare.

So, leave it to Kevin to figure out another way to make a grab for a cash infusion before he loses all leverage he has remaining.

I am sure he is kicking himself that the Facebook page is running so backers can unite... I am certain a complete takedown of the KS page is coming.
It is what I would do.
If I was evil.

Well, as mentioned previously, the KS page and all the updates have already been archived, so there is that...

Got a reply from KS.

Standard, sorry, we know they broke the ToS but we can't do gak. We'll watch the comments section real hard for you though!

We've had lots of Backer file complaints, but tough gak!

I am sad that KS is a paper tiger and their TOS is wet tissue paper.

I was contemplating coming back to KS to support the upcoming Zombicide: Invaders, but if they have no teeth to enforce their TOS, that’s not happening.

The ToS would be enforced by court order, whether Small Claims or otherwise.

From what I can tell, it would also be enforced as a standing debt were PB to file for bankruptcy, which in all honesty is probably why they haven't yet.

It'd be unsecured debt, though...

Yeah, but unsecured debts of (pretty conservatively) close to a half-million dollars to 5,000 odd backers is likely to draw the attention of the US Trustee. Almost certain to have a committee formed (effectively a class action suggested by the Trustee and paid for out of the estate - PB) in this circumstance, which could *really* feth things up for PB.

One can only hope...

A lawsuit may not see any financial reward to the backers (okay, not "may", there flat out wouldn't be any money left over), but it would be _great_ to have a forensic accountant go through PB's books during discovery.

I'd rather not see anyone destitute and out in the streets over this (or over anything else, really).

...but I wouldn't mind Palladium Books having to close due to it either. Maybe that way their IPs would end up in the hands of someone competent.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd rather not see anyone destitute and out in the streets over this (or over anything else, really).

That won't happen, PB is a LLC, which means there are strict limits on what assets can be legally attacked - assets owned by PB LLC, not assets owned by Kevin.

That's assuming discovery doesn't find any actual fraud, though mail/wire fraud is very easy to qualify for.

Actually got a response back from Kickstarter support.

Support (Kickstarter)

Mar 6, 5:45 PM EST

Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. We’ve heard from a number of Robotech backers in response to the creator’s recent update announcing that the project is unable to deliver the second wave of rewards promised to many backers.

Like you, we’re disappointed by the outcome here. Throughout the course of this project, we’ve fielded concerns and encouraged Palladium Books to keep their community in the loop with the project’s progress. Still, after five years, more than 200 updates, thousands of rewards shipped and thousands more unmet, the project has hit an impasse.

Our Terms of Use that were in effect during this project’s funding state, “Kickstarter does not offer refunds....Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.” As funds were disbursed directly to the project creator, Kickstarter is unable to facilitate refunds. Kickstarter is also unable to provide advice on other potential remediation or recourse against a creator, legal or otherwise.

That said, we know how frustrating and disappointing this situation is for both backers and the creators of the Robotech RPG Tactics project. Since 2013, when this campaign ended, we’ve implemented new review processes to make sure that creators who have trouble fulfilling their obligations to backers are forced to undergo a manual review by our Integrity team should they attempt to launch another project in the future. Palladium Books will be held to these same standards. Beyond this, we’re continuing to monitor questions and comments coming in about this project, and working with leadership internally to assess the best path forward.

We appreciate your feedback. Thank you for voicing your concerns.

Best,
Kickstarter Support

"Not our fault! Sucks to be you!"

 John Prins wrote:
That won't happen, PB is a LLC, which means there are strict limits on what assets can be legally attacked - assets owned by PB LLC, not assets owned by Kevin.

Unless he commingles, which I wouldn't be surprised if he does, after reading the Crisis of Treachery.

"Creditors will be looking for ways to reach through the business entity and grab the owners’ personal assets. ... Commingling is one of the most common mistakes that a small business owner makes which can lead to veil peircing. Commingling is a legal term to describe the mixing of personal and business income and expenses."

https://nolasmallbizlaw.com/2012/commingling-how-to-lose-your-personal-liability-protection/

Usually, creators aren't sought after by backers because the lawyers costs are greater than the amount of money recuperated from the creator. And this includes a lawyer hired to gather evidence for these government agencies which are supposed to protect us (eg. Asylum Bicycle cards).

I would go through my credit card first and would think that a credit card company would be more effective than legal action. Found this info for another undelivered KS that might also help. : http://backertrap.info/credit-card-chargeback/

 ProfessorSinu wrote:
Actually got a response back from Kickstarter support.

Support (Kickstarter)

Mar 6, 5:45 PM EST

Hi there,

Thanks for reaching out. We’ve heard from a number of Robotech backers in response to the creator’s recent update announcing that the project is unable to deliver the second wave of rewards promised to many backers.

Like you, we’re disappointed by the outcome here. Throughout the course of this project, we’ve fielded concerns and encouraged Palladium Books to keep their community in the loop with the project’s progress. Still, after five years, more than 200 updates, thousands of rewards shipped and thousands more unmet, the project has hit an impasse.

Our Terms of Use that were in effect during this project’s funding state, “Kickstarter does not offer refunds....Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.” As funds were disbursed directly to the project creator, Kickstarter is unable to facilitate refunds. Kickstarter is also unable to provide advice on other potential remediation or recourse against a creator, legal or otherwise.

That said, we know how frustrating and disappointing this situation is for both backers and the creators of the Robotech RPG Tactics project. Since 2013, when this campaign ended, we’ve implemented new review processes to make sure that creators who have trouble fulfilling their obligations to backers are forced to undergo a manual review by our Integrity team should they attempt to launch another project in the future. Palladium Books will be held to these same standards. Beyond this, we’re continuing to monitor questions and comments coming in about this project, and working with leadership internally to assess the best path forward.

We appreciate your feedback. Thank you for voicing your concerns.

Best,
Kickstarter Support

And with that response I hope that Discovery and whoever else is providing refunds with the intent to go after Palladium also goes after kickstarter indicating that not enforcing their TOS makes them liable. In this way while it is unlikely they will get any cash out of Palladium, they will hopefully get their money back through suing kickstarter.

If that happens Kickstarter might actually start holding creators accountable.

Highly unlikely but I can still hope...

I mean we all knew this already, but it is good to see that Kickstarter itself knows and admits that its ''protections" are useless, that they only care about their 10% and that they have no interest in helping backers of failed projects.

It really will be up to the backers themselves to organize and execute legal action.

 Ctaylor wrote:
A lawsuit may not see any financial reward to the backers (okay, not "may", there flat out wouldn't be any money left over), but it would be _great_ to have a forensic accountant go through PB's books during discovery.

My PA also does FA work at a rate of $400 an hour. Who exactly is going to pay for that?

Litigation Fantasies are nice to have. Sometimes I think there's a tabletop game waiting to be crafted around all the legal tactics that exist.

Honestly, were there not a threat of a lawsuit and it would restore some trust with the community, I bet PB would be willing to open their books.

I don't think PB will open their books unless 'forced to do so' - and unless 'forced to do so' and by an outside party, no one would believe PB anyway - and nor should they.

Given the costs that you mention, the only real hope for a court case and/or settlement here is if some government agency, state or federal, decides to get involved.

Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

 Alpharius wrote:
Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

ROFL. That's the spirit!

After what happened with Gawker, I was thinking there might be a market for a crowdsourced litigation site. Did a fair amount of customer discovery to hear people tell some awful stories about what happened to them and their inability to afford to go to court.

There's definitely an interest, but I question whether there could be a market. For > 90% of companies, litigation means liquidation - which is not the same as bankruptcy. It's not hard to set up a new entity doing the same thing under a different name, and the costs of pursuing them for going that route only raises the bar.

If we really wanted some teeth in situations like this - it would be to remove the corporate veil and go after the executives personally. That's not going to happen unless someone treated the corporate treasury as a personal checking account, i.e. paying personal bills, vacations, trips to the grocery store, car repairs, etc.

Corporations are not there to encourage responsibility. They are a shield for people who want to take risks.

You bring up a good point - I mean, we don't have any 'proof' (yet) that something untoward happened here, but there's a strong suspicion that PB mismanaged the funds at best, and at worst, 'criminally' misused them.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

ROFL. That's the spirit!

After what happened with Gawker, I was thinking there might be a market for a crowdsourced litigation site. Did a fair amount of customer discovery to hear people tell some awful stories about what happened to them and their inability to afford to go to court.

crowdjustice.com

I'm not setting up something on there, no.... *shifty eyes*

 Alpharius wrote:
You bring up a good point - I mean, we don't have any 'proof' (yet) that something untoward happened here, but there's a strong suspicion that PB mismanaged the funds at best, and at worst, 'criminally' misused them.

I am sure even after say some case does go through they would push hard to have some non-disclosure agreement... you know how they work.
Because it is really fun to hit someone with a legal Tsunami but have to say you cannot tell any details to others.

 Albertorius wrote:
I'd rather not see anyone destitute and out in the streets over this (or over anything else, really).

Why not? If someone lied and stole, why shouldn't they be made bankrupt in the process?

If Kevin ends up living in a van by the river, due to his own decisions, and the consequences thereafter, why wouldn't that be fitting?

It's sort of the theme here: consequences.

Because in most cases schadenfreude just isn't cool.

Losing PB to bankruptcy/having to shut it down and the resultant loss of reputation (and the income stream) would probably be 'enough' for most.

It's an interesting situation to watch unfold, for sure.

I do think PB still have a potentially survivable course of action, but they really, really need to get ahead of it. Every day there are more filings with various AGs and the FTC.

Once those get moving, there won't be any stopping them and we'll have another Doom That Came to Atlantic City.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why not? If someone lied and stole, why shouldn't they be made bankrupt in the process?

If Kevin ends up living in a van by the river, due to his own decisions, and the consequences thereafter, why wouldn't that be fitting?

Simply because I'd rather not see anyone destitute.

There are lots of people who end up bankrupt through no particular fault of their own, and I feel bad for them.

Someone went out of their way to cheat others out of their hard-earned money, and then lied about it for years? Then refusing to admit responsibility or make amends? And trying to skate away without consequences? No, not so much.

I used to joke that Kevin should be reduced to wearing a (bankruptcy) barrel:

I'm not backing away from that.

But really, Kevin shouldn't end up living in a van by the river - that's how a hard-working motiviational speaker lives:


He should actually end up in Debtor's Prison!

Well, for now I think most of us would just have to be happy if they didn't avoid getting off without any major repercussions in general.

Them ending up destitute for the rest of their days or whatever is just revenge fantasy, at least until even some moderate consequences land and manage to stick.

I do hope that some form of (legal, ethical) justice is handed down, but I'm not hedging bets on it occurring either. If their name goes from 'mostly forgotten by the dustbins of time' to 'actively toxic, loathed by many and supported only by their die hard fans', that might have to be enough. If they have to scale back and one day close with little fanfare, fine, whatever.

Kevin ending up in a homeless shelter or whatever isn't necessary for there to be consequences, and everyone's view on what's far enough versus what isn't far enough is just comparing (for now) hypotheticals we're nowhere near existing.

At least until that Legal Tsunami(tm) crashes into Michigan!

 Forar wrote:
If their name goes from 'mostly forgotten by the dustbins of time' to 'actively toxic, loathed by many and supported only by their die hard fans',

At least until that Legal Tsunami(tm) crashes into Michigan!

That has already happened. PB was all but forgotten prior to the RRT KS, and is now loathed aside from fan-friends. No real consequences, so far, though.

Speaking of, what happened to that guy? Did Kevin force refund him to get him to stop posting on KS?

Legal Tsunami, I'd totally play a superhero named that in Villains and Vigilantes or Mutants & Masterminds.

winterdyne wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Or, I suppose, a successful "Go Fund Me" or something similar.

ROFL. That's the spirit!

After what happened with Gawker, I was thinking there might be a market for a crowdsourced litigation site. Did a fair amount of customer discovery to hear people tell some awful stories about what happened to them and their inability to afford to go to court.

crowdjustice.com

I'm not setting up something on there, no.... *shifty eyes*

I'm aware of it. Seems to function more as a social shaming site than a real platform for raising money to fund legal action. A group could probably raise more through a change.org petition. Instagram, Twitter and other microblogging platforms are better at raising awareness and Paypal processes donations for less.

The reason KS works is the novelty of the projects and the appearance that your money is safe with them. Customers don't want to fund wealthy lawyers or someone else's payday, why would anyone want to pay a middleman close to 10% to support a noble cause?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
He should actually end up in Debtor's Prison!

Most likely not.

PB is incorporated as it's own legal entity. If PB gets sued, there are no consequences for the owners other than losses associated with diminished income (which likely benefits them from a tax perspective.)

There are exceptions that mostly revolve around misuse of company funds, which is called co-mingling. This means using the company bank account for personal expenses. Co-mingling is hard to prove unless you have a smoking gun, ordinary business mistakes are not an exception to the corporate veil.

From everything I've seen, going after PB would just result in a decision to close the company. They don't generate enough revenue to fund a legal battle. Sure, you can get a judgement against them, but there's nothing to collect. They might make an offer to settle for fractions of a penny on the dollar. If it's not accepted, PB would just cease operations. The owner could legally set up a new corporation overnight, sell the assets / inventory to it, and start doing business the next day under that new name.

In fact, I'd be surprised if the owner is not already thinking about it, given all the ill-will in the community.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
If their name goes from 'mostly forgotten by the dustbins of time' to 'actively toxic, loathed by many and supported only by their die hard fans',

At least until that Legal Tsunami(tm) crashes into Michigan!

That has already happened. PB was all but forgotten prior to the RRT KS, and is now loathed aside from fan-friends. No real consequences, so far, though.

Speaking of, what happened to that guy? Did Kevin force refund him to get him to stop posting on KS?

Apparently, Rick must not have got a refund. He's been crowing on the FB page "I've got him now! I've got him now".

@techsoldaten - Huh, I thought a debtor's prison situation was illegal in the US.

This is the same Rick who was going to have PB burned to the ground, and the Earth salted, if they sold at Gen Con before delivering to backers, right?

He's trying to outdo Kevin as far as lack of credibility.

 Stormonu wrote:

@techsoldaten - Huh, I thought a debtor's prison situation was illegal in the US.

To my (limited) understanding, it's a quirk of the law that debtor's prisons are indeed illegal but it's possible to be put in jail for defying a court order to repay the loan after a judgement against you. You're not being jailed for the debt; you're being jailed due to contempt of court for not following the court's order to pay the debt. This is viewed by the ACLU, among others, as a distinction that means little to the affected, but the law is pretty much all about those little technicalities.

Of course, I don't think the practice of jailing people is terribly commonplace so much as one obviously so prone to abuse, especially in localities with elected judges and lobbying money from creditors, that it's viewed as fairly egregious that it's even possible.

Back on topic, while I wouldn't want to see employees of PB out on the street, I also would prefer that PB ceases operations with its assets liquidated and the principal parties of PB who had the biggest hand in lying-through-omission not have a job in the gaming industry anymore. Hopefully at least some of that comes to pass as a warning for future shysters looking to take advantage of people.

I'm a simple man with simple wants.

I want the legal recourse to be Kevin driven to each Backer's town in a moving van with a mobile stockade in the back.

He will then be lowered to the ground where the Backer and any immediate family can throw vegetables at him from morn until midday.

At this point the Backer will be allowed to kick Kevin in the ass until the Backers leg becomes tired. The Backer will be allowed to pick 1 Relief Kicker of his choosing that can continue until that person's leg becomes fatigued.

If this time has ended before sundown, Kevin shall be subjected repeated lashing with a rubber chicken by the strongest person in the vicinity until sundown.

At sundown, he will be placed back in the truck and moved to the next Backer location.

Can't we just tar and feather him, before parading him around on a rail?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Can't we just tar and feather him, before parading him around on a rail?

We all get it that you would really like to see something really bad happen.

In real life, if we punished everyone who made a bad decision, no one would have nice things. There would be no upside in business if owners bore all the risk for what happens. 90% of businesses fail in their first year, it's a trade off.

I'm sure the PB owner made some mistakes. I'm just as sure he doesn't deserve to be the victim of mob violence.

Maybe we can tone down the rhetoric? There would probably be opportunities for the gaming community to learn from his mistakes if he wasn't being threatened daily by anonymous posters on the Internet.

"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Legal Tsunami, I'd totally play a superhero named that in Villains and Vigilantes or Mutants & Masterminds.

But not Heroes Unlimited?

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm sure the PB owner made some mistakes.

OTOH, that's like saying that the Sistine Chapel it's just "some ceiling paint".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Legal Tsunami, I'd totally play a superhero named that in Villains and Vigilantes or Mutants & Masterminds.

But not Heroes Unlimited?

Well, it depends. How much do you want an aneurism?

 TalonZahn wrote:
I'm a simple man with simple wants.

I want the legal recourse to be Kevin driven to each Backer's town in a moving van with a mobile stockade in the back.

He will then be lowered to the ground where the Backer and any immediate family can throw vegetables at him from morn until midday.

Will I be obligated to take them out of the can first?

 Albertorius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm sure the PB owner made some mistakes.

OTOH, that's like saying that the Sistine Chapel it's just "some ceiling paint".

I think he's auditioning for the Black Knight. "just a flesh wound"

Rolling up in Heroes Unlimited for Legal Tsunami™ I got two minor powers. Incredible Hand Speed and Heightened Sense of Touch so apparently he's an amazing jerk off just like a certain business owner that shall remain nameless. Heroes Unlimited, where there's no superhero that can do everything but plenty of them that can do nothing at all.

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Wow, so it's finally coming to something of an end.
My condolences to all those who lost time and $ on this.

Gotta say that I'm a little miffed that it looks like short of true legal action (which would likely not result in full refunds anyway, just PB bankrupcy) PB is going to carry on with their other projects after pocketing everyone's $ and using this loss of IP to cover their backsides.

It's unfortunate that companies continue to do business with PB. I wish our hobby could be rid of folks like Kevin Siembieda the way we shed Tony Reidy.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

There's the arguable, but not clear-cut, case of them claiming that Wave 2 was going to be produced when by their recent admission they knew they wouldn't have the funds to do so literal years ago. In court it would likely be sufficient to prove they were trying to secure the funding by other means to stave off the failure, if they can produce credible documentation to that effect. However, the question of how the project funds were suddenly insufficient would come up which could lead to uncomfortable answers from PB (i.e. - overbuying retail using KS funds without leaving sufficient funds for completion) which may drift it into a grayer area that most people would care to be in normally.

More relevant is the repeated statements that they would offer refunds if the project could not deliver rewards as a response to people requesting them and thus as their reason for not returning the funds. They do not appear to be honoring that repeated statement, which they acknowledged was something they had agreed to do under the KS agreement. If they continue to not refund money, that does on the surface appear to make their earlier statements, which were made when some funds could likely have been recouped more readily, fraudulent. They said if X happened, they would do Y as required. X happened and while there's still time for them to do Y there's been no mention of it being an option. To then offer refunds if you didn't take their earlier option also seems like it'd fall afoul of aspects of that, as perhaps backers who did take up the stock offer would have preferred refunds if it had been mentioned. So it seems likely they have no intention of doing refunds, which is them keeping people's money when they said they would return it which, to my layman's interpretation, would be deception.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

So, your two points here are:

1. You don't actually know the details, but you're going to argue anyway.

2. Palladium Books being forced out of business would likely have the opposite effect being sought by those who...want to force Palladium Books out of business

 techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Merijeek wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
"made some mistakes"? That's quite a downplay, it's more like knowingly squandered money, concealed the facts from the backers whose money it was and then tried a really obvious scheme to get the same backers to waive their legal rights.

But hey, if we went after fraudsters there totally wouldn't be any businesses right? It's no wonder financial crime is so rife in the world.

I was saying calls to tar and feather him are not constructive. If the point is for backers to get some of their value back / satisfaction of driving PB out of business, this would likely have the opposite effect.

Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

So, your two points here are:

1. You don't actually know the details, but you're going to argue anyway.

2. Palladium Books being forced out of business would likely have the opposite effect being sought by those who...want to force Palladium Books out of business

Brilliant!

 Albertorius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Along with saying that they'd finally provide refunds if they ever couldn't deliver.

Someone in the RRT Comments section of Kickstarter, pointed out this textual work of art.

In a the crapfest that was the Zero incident, a backer who got into it with a PB representative (Jeff, apparently) on the phone, then took it to the RRT Comments, crapped himself, and rolled around in it. Then a PB representative (who would soon identify himself) got down and started rolling around too.

Resulting in this specific post, that a backer linked to.

Palladium Books Creator on March 18, 2014
This isn't Jeff, this is Wayne. I was nearby while Jeff was on the phone with you, and he was calm and polite the entire call, whereas you were rude and resorted to name-calling. He simply did not say the things you claim.

We're sorry about the delay in delivering the rewards for this project, but it is coming, and soon. There is no question about whether we will deliver. If something were to happen that would cause us to be unable to deliver, we would, of course, offer refunds as Kickstarter's terms dictate. But that is not the case here; not even close. We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before. Screaming and calling names won't speed up the process.

That Wayne specified himself as posting, means Kevin can't even use the "Jeff doesn't work here anymore" argument.

Don't need personal emails saying the same thing, when it was explicitly stated by a PB representative in the comments section.

There we go! Nice!

Just got one of their inserts they send out with all product orders advertising their open-house in late April. Looks like Robotech RPG tactics is on the list of events planned.

I believe there was some chatter about that on PB's forums or one of the groups. No longer having access to the license seems to mean that they can't sell the games anymore (among other things, it's not an exhaustive list), but there's no reason they can't run some games there anyways.

Yes, obviously, running games makes for a good way to advertise and sell product, and doing so without product to sell isn't a terribly effective use of time and space, but if turnout is even as high as it was last time, I'm guessing a half dozen game boards with much of the heavy lifting done by fans/friends/volunteers is more about use of space than anything.

Same with Gencon. It'll be interesting if they continue to give enough of a gak to run those in August, or if they'll be done with having the remotest pretense of giving a feth. I wouldn't be surprised if some fan took it upon themselves to run a series of small events, as fans have been driving progress further and faster than PB has in years, but aside from some dusty Rifters, I doubt there'll be much in terms of prize support. Maybe some fridge art? I dunno.

At the same time, PB continuing to show their same lukewarm support of a now dead game would be a pretty much perfect encapsulation of this whole fiasco.

I wonder if Wayne is above being tripped at the curb by Kevin.

 Forar wrote:
I believe there was some chatter about that on PB's forums or one of the groups. No longer having access to the license seems to mean that they can't sell the games anymore (among other things, it's not an exhaustive list), but there's no reason they can't run some games there anyways.

I wonder how many boxes they'll sell at Open House? You know, ones that they hadn't gotten around to destroying them yet.

However many they sell, it's still not going to be enough.

They need to get ahead of the refunding situation - not making a damn good effort to honour this will get the FTC and AG rolling in short order. They're definitely watching.

winterdyne wrote:
However many they sell, it's still not going to be enough.

They need to get ahead of the refunding situation - not making a damn good effort to honour this will get the FTC and AG rolling in short order. They're definitely watching.

They are?

Interesting - please do tell us more!

So skimming through PB's comments on the kickstarter, I found this (emphasis mine). Re-reading this, it could now be interpreted that they spent all the money banking on wave 1 and the future expansions includes wave 2. Back then, I thought they meant Southern Cross/Invid.

This endeavor already made them $1.44 Million Dollars; plus up to another 100% in backerkit bonuses. So with potentially anywhere from $2 Million to $3 Million already in their pockets - they don't necessarily have to rush to give a product that's already been paid for.” I just caught this last night, and feel the need to respond and clear something up. We are NOT sitting on a giant pile of money. After Amazon/Kickstarter fees (8-10%) and the usual 1-2% of backers whose payments didn't go through, the total wasn't much more than $1.3 mil. Then HG and ND get their cuts, and what's left over has to pay not only for manufacturing, but the cost of shipping the goods to all of you fine people (a LOT of whom are overseas). The BackerKit added to that, for sure, but a successful pledge manager is generally expected to add about 10% on top of the Kickstarter total. We did pretty close to that (slightly over). Nowhere near 100% (I wish)! The bottom line is, we're not going to make much, if any, profit from this project until the game is selling in retail. And most of THAT is going to be put back into development and manufacture of future expansions. --Wayne

 Alpharius wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
However many they sell, it's still not going to be enough.

They need to get ahead of the refunding situation - not making a damn good effort to honour this will get the FTC and AG rolling in short order. They're definitely watching.

They are?

Interesting - please do tell us more!

Specifically, the MI AG office have been helpful in combining previous complaint, requesting a rebuttal to previous response etc, as opposed to the usual situation of 'file and forget'.
Manually written emails too (albeit fairly brief), not automated. With the previous complaint IIRC, I don't think they directly responded to anything I said.

I suspect the volume of complaints and sheer size of the debt we're looking at are significant factors in this.

I stand ready to be corrected, but to my knowledge, even assuming a pretty generous (to PB) debt per backer of about $90 on average, this is the single largest kickstarter failure to deliver where the project funding goals were hit. Ever. In any field. History to be made, people.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Along with saying that they'd finally provide refunds if they ever couldn't deliver.

These are bad business practices, but fraud means taking the money and using it for another purpose.

From everything I've read, they actually engaged with partners on the design and fabrication of the miniatures. Miniatures were actually produced and shipped, just not everything they promised.

Again, is there any evidence of actual fraud, or is this just Internet outrage?