I'd never seen or even heard of the original anime, but a friend lent me the live action movie several years ago. I found it quite interesting. Specifically it had an element of unpredictability that kept me riveted to the screen. Every time I thought I recognized the story "pattern" and figured I knew what would happen next, the film would suddenly shift and leave me lost and trying to get to grips with it again. Maybe that's just because of my limited experience to Japanese films (though I was seriously into anime at the time), but regardless; I enjoyed it so much that I ended up buying the 3-disc special edition DVD. Kind of interesting use of VFX too; they aren't exactly great (even for the time), but they are all-encompassing, creating a world that's not quite real but is very different; I felt it added to the surreal nature of the whole thing, helping me to lose myself in the world it was creating.
I'm sure it's not what I would have wanted if I had any affection for the original anime and wanted to see characters who I knew doing awesome stuff, but divorced from that it was... an experience at any rate.
"Surreal" is a great descriptor of LA Casshern's look. If you watch it on a large TV, it's fascinating due to the "uncanny valley" thing going on, and the way things were rendered. But it's not really a very good movie, for the storytelling issues you identified.
Stormonu wrote: Well it looks like the RRT group on facebook has sent a letter of intent to sue PB....stay posted folks.
Awesome. Hope something comes of it.
Latest PBWU is up. There's mention in the opening paragraph of "Robotech", but nothing specifically about Tactics, and nothing of content. Weirdly, Kevin hasn't done a SotC style Update. Maybe he's learning.... nah.
Looks like Sovietski might be finished soon-ish. Of course, Kevin is retroactively pretending it is on time. "Still on track for an end of February release.".
As usual, Kevin spouts how awesome it is.
Everyone who has seen the finished sections of the Sovietski Soldier revisited, the Spetsnaz secret police/special forces, the D-Bees, the Religious Enclaves, and ... well, pretty much any of it, has gone wild over it. The first word out of their mouth being, “Wow.” I think that’s my favorite word for a critique of a book.
Frankly, these people are just feeding delusions at this point. But people aren't just blowing smoke, they tell Kevin how it really is.
The two animal compendium books that were supposed to be out in December and January have now been shifted to "Winter", as has Face of Death. Anyone want to bet that Kevin will get all three books beyond Sovietski out by the end of March? No takers? Didn't think so.
Living Nowhere is being Kevinized (heavy edits, probably a full rewrite), and what was on June 9th 2017, supposed to be a July 2017 release, is now a Spring 2018 release. That's going from <2 months, to 10+ months. It's just ridiculous.
Thankfully no other book has a release date. So that's one less thing he's got to change over the next couple months.
At this point, Palladium should just subcontract with them to product one piece superdeformed rubber wave 2 minis. At least we'd have something/anything for our money in that case instead of Palladium probably slowly siphoning off cash from a pile of hundres of thousands of dollars for ongoing operating expenses while they're "working" on it.
I always wanted make a fighting game for muscles. The heroclix Ali boxing ring really pushed me back to the idea.
But don’t plan to buy them or anything else until the end of rrt
As for my email rant to the various companies; I got back automated replies basically saying it’s not a problem unless they say it is.
Good to see a group of people getting together to sue Kevin and palladium games; funny thing is I noticed
They now call themselves pallium books now.
I guess it’s something like my local internet company being called charter and now spectrum. Name change
Makes all the bad press go away. But don’t help me get internet installed in my house because one reason I’ve
Been quite is only had the phone for my connection.
I don't even know what they're thinking, like I can get the fake updates those make sense. But now have they just given up?
For the record, it's approaching 5 weeks late from when the last was due, or 7 weeks since the last Update.
And the only reason I can think of for being so late, is that Scott thought he was on the cusp of being able to announce something big, and as with all PBbs, it keeps getting delayed*, and Scott's realized that coming back with "We hoped to have good news, but", won't go over well with the backers.
* Rifts Sovietski, according to the latest PBWU was delayed from the next stage of completion, because Kevin forgot to complete writing a significant section of the book. Kevin blows it off as just packing the book with awesome, but the reality is the entire company are fethed when it comes to completing a project on time. Kevin flits around from book to book to book (to occasionally for a while, RRT), and that's why a half dozen plus books have been almost complete for several years. He's like a ferret hopped up on cocaine. "Oooh! Shiny!"
Or, like you suggest, Scott gave up. Like I alluded to above, there's simply not much upside for Scott. He's either not doing the work, not allowed to do the work, or not having the work done that he's organized, so there's nothing to report some 8 months after he said 6 months to completion was possible. He's used every arguable excuse, and he's literally got nothing to show for it. There's no revised estimate, as they don't even appear close to STARTING the clock. So, the only thing posting on his regular schedule gets him, is some credibility. And the contents (or lack thereof) of his posts, destroy any credibility he might gain. He knows he's hosed unless he brings at least a moderate amount of news.
So it's better to just wait it out. As can be seen both here and on the Kickstarter, and even on PB's Forums and Facebook page, public resentment dies down. On the Kickstarter, the last page worth of comments (50 before "Show Older Comments") is 5+ full days worth, less than 10 a day. Directly after an Update, you're looking at 50+ outraged posts a day for a couple days. So again, there doesn't appear to be an upside to stirring up the hornet's nest.
And the only reason I can think of for being so late, is that Scott thought he was on the cusp of being able to announce something big, and as with all PBbs, it keeps getting delayed*, and Scott's realized that coming back with "We hoped to have good news, but", won't go over well with the backers.
The one or two times he was potentially on the cusp of anything (like quotes supposedly around gencon), he just ignored it afterwards. If he actually did his job and kept his promises about keeping backers informed, I'd be cutting him more slack. Instead, he's fallen into the habit of just ignoring the problem of non-fulfillment and hoping the complaints go away.
As can be seen both here and on the Kickstarter, and even on PB's Forums and Facebook page, public resentment dies down. On the Kickstarter, the last page worth of comments (50 before "Show Older Comments") is 5+ full days worth, less than 10 a day. Directly after an Update, you're looking at 50+ outraged posts a day for a couple days. So again, there doesn't appear to be an upside to stirring up the hornet's nest.
Eh, not to pull a Simbieda (hatred for RRT is HEATING UP this season!) but honestly, things may have quieted on surface but the backers are getting more organized. I just saw the legal letter one of the backers had his lawyer send to PB on the FB group today.
Now granted, a letter isn't anywhere near enough, but it's a first step and he's got backers proactively offering money to get a piece of PB. Vengeance isn't something that just goes away.
Backers are getting legal action going? How do I jump on board? I don't care if I lose money, if it drives a dishonest, preying, thieving man and company out of business then I'm all for it.
It would be different if he put in an effort, but this whole thing was sketchy from the start. From the rumors they used funds to build a home, to lack of any updates, no attempt at progress, lies (instead of just saying "we're out of money, we mismanaged it, sorry"), bullying those who spoke out against the wrongdoing... Yea PB needs to get shut down.
Interesting thing is folks and stores have literally thrown the product away due to no sales, no players, etc. Recently I saw a kickstarter 1st wave sell for around $100! Guess the game is not totally dead, but I've switched back to battletech, gundam tactics, and mobile suit skirmish instead.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Speaking of stuff, I just saw this at my local Target:
That's a blast from the past! I remember when my elementary school banned those cards for being too disruptive or something. I didn't have that particular card, but I did have the alternate card (Garbage Pail Kids had two names for every design) with the name "Hot Head Harry" on it.
And the only reason I can think of for being so late, is that Scott thought he was on the cusp of being able to announce something big, and as with all PBbs, it keeps getting delayed*, and Scott's realized that coming back with "We hoped to have good news, but", won't go over well with the backers.
The one or two times he was potentially on the cusp of anything (like quotes supposedly around gencon), he just ignored it afterwards. If he actually did his job and kept his promises about keeping backers informed, I'd be cutting him more slack. Instead, he's fallen into the habit of just ignoring the problem of non-fulfillment and hoping the complaints go away.
Ignoring the problem is what agitates backers and underscores that nothing is being done.
"Here's a new character" is different than "Here's a new character to hold you over while these details are being worked out with the manufacturer we contracted with" have different effects.
n815e wrote: Ignoring the problem is what agitates backers and underscores that nothing is being done.
"Here's a new character" is different than "Here's a new character to hold you over while these details are being worked out with the manufacturer we contracted with" have different effects.
Well one effect its: "Oh cute, they created a character as an award for a tournament with 6 players. Oh look, even the winner said they got it wrong" The other effect: "Two weeks later this is the best you crooks could come up with? What happened to the quotes?"
They will not admit to running out of funds, nor will they admit to failure. It doesn't coincide with Kevins' narrative of how great he and his company is.
As can be seen both here and on the Kickstarter, and even on PB's Forums and Facebook page, public resentment dies down. On the Kickstarter, the last page worth of comments (50 before "Show Older Comments") is 5+ full days worth, less than 10 a day. Directly after an Update, you're looking at 50+ outraged posts a day for a couple days. So again, there doesn't appear to be an upside to stirring up the hornet's nest.
Eh, not to pull a Simbieda (hatred for RRT is HEATING UP this season!) but honestly, things may have quieted on surface but the backers are getting more organized. I just saw the legal letter one of the backers had his lawyer send to PB on the FB group today.
Now granted, a letter isn't anywhere near enough, but it's a first step and he's got backers proactively offering money to get a piece of PB. Vengeance isn't something that just goes away.
Maybe they need a kickstarter to sue Palladium. That would be the ultimate in poetic justice.
HudsonD wrote: I did actually suggest a KS for the purpose of legal action against PB, a few dozen pages ago
It's pedantry, but far as I know Kickstarter doesn't allow such campaigns.
However, other platforms like GoFundMe and whatnot do, if I'm not mistaken.
So, yeah, we could crowdfund legal services somehow, but not literally on Kickstarter.
I'll believe it when I see it, and frankly would be wary of sending more money to any random person (backer or not) and expecting substantial results. Or anything more than them just walking off with the money.
But if the litigation FB group is finally getting some momentum after years(?) of doing nothing, cool.
Yeah, I believe KS has to result in the creation of some sort of product (the irony of that and the non-existent wave 2 notwithstanding). The simple way to get around that would be to technically fund the creation of a simple mobile app allowing backers to sign up to sue Palladium instead of directly collecting funds to sue. A simple program where all it does is take your email and add you to a list shouldn't take more than a few hours of coding with someone who knows what they're doing (not me... BASIC and PASCAL on the Apple II in the late 80's were my last programing attempts). KS doesn't care as long as they get their cut.
n815e wrote: Let’s see what effect the backer letter has.
I think we've already seen it, or are seeing it...
As of yesterday the sender hasnt had a notification of the letter being delivered, it was rumoured that it snowed heavy in Palladuims area and pos no one at site or they flat out refused it, the sender was going up the PO to check on it
n815e wrote: Even if they haven’t received it in the mail, they have known it was coming and it is now available to download.
link?
Unfortunately, it's a closed facebook group (RRT Backers planning lawsuit) and they have requested that the letter not be reposted. It doesn't have any surprises though. Basically informing Kevin that he either produces Wave 2, provides proof of activity/spending of funds or be prepared to face a class action suit.
It's apparently a required "letter of intent" to prove that the person leading the charge attempted to reach out to PB to resolve the matter first before actually starting legal proceedings. PB will ignore it, but again, it appears to be a required first step.
It's actually a "Demand Letter", wherein one states very clearly *exactly* what one wants by whatever deadline is appropriate. Typically, there is a 1-week response window. It shows a "good faith" to negotiate a resolution before filing a lawsuit.
Failure to acknowledge or respond (in writing or action) to repeated demands may constitute "bad faith" and result in treble damages above and beyond actual losses suffered.
PB will likely ignore it, because no real money has been spent. Once a lawsuit is filed, they may start to pay attention. Or not,
So I went to my FLGS, Over Christmas They had RRT for $20 brand new.
Well, it didn't sell.
They've placed it on a bottom shelf, where it's likely to sit till it's either tossed, or someone gets it on a whim.
What I find sad is there's tons of youtube videos that cover failed kickstarters and KS projects that ran with the money, yet RRT gets next to no attention even with the giant amount of money it made.
dreamakuma wrote: So I went to my FLGS, Over Christmas They had RRT for $20 brand new.
Well, it didn't sell.
They've placed it on a bottom shelf, where it's likely to sit till it's either tossed, or someone gets it on a whim.
What I find sad is there's tons of youtube videos that cover failed kickstarters and KS projects that ran with the money, yet RRT gets next to no attention even with the giant amount of money it made.
Well, in one aspect, that's good. If no one has heard of them no one will buy from them (though there's plenty of YouTube videos that do mention PB's failure, just not very prominent ones). I think overall there's enough negativity associated with this debacle that PB will never be able to rise above it - that's not the justice I want, but at this point, I'll take what I can get.
I don't think they care. Just like the alternate dimension religious folks in that Silent Hill movie, they're just fine and dandy where they are in their ever shrinking circle of fan friend self reinforcement.
Stormonu wrote: Unfortunately, it's a closed facebook group (RRT Backers planning lawsuit) and they have requested that the letter not be reposted. It doesn't have any surprises though. Basically informing Kevin that he either produces Wave 2, provides proof of activity/spending of funds or be prepared to face a class action suit.
It's apparently a required "letter of intent" to prove that the person leading the charge attempted to reach out to PB to resolve the matter first before actually starting legal proceedings. PB will ignore it, but again, it appears to be a required first step.
So, I'm not a lawyer, but what reasoning is there for it to not be reposted? Presumably the backers involved know what it says (or at least the outlines), PB will know what it says once it has been received, I'm unclear why it's being treated as privileged information.
But, again, as I said, I don't know this stuff, maybe there's a really good reason! Maybe it's something about paying for a lawyers work and not wanting that just freely handed out on the internet? I don't know what I don't know, so consider this a WHY ARE YOU SO CAGEY ABOUT IT, and more a sincere question asked in good faith.
Forar wrote: [
So, I'm not a lawyer, but what reasoning is there for it to not be reposted?
Because you don't conduct a case through the media, that's why. You don't publish your letter of intent, you don't broadcast your demands on social media, you keep it professional and operate in good faith, or you get to trial and you opponent has tons of bad faith ammunition to sink your case. Once you unleash the lawyers, you let the lawyers deal with it and STFU.
My guess is they didn’t want it getting out to the fan-friends to be waved as some sort of persecution banner, or to give PB any wiggle room that they first heard about via a repost vs. getting it by registered mail.
Either way, just adhering to the request - for now. If I see they post that they got a recieve reciept, I don’t see any reason not to post it then.
1) If it is published and nothing comes of it (settled, dropped, no suit, etc), it could be considered to damage PB's rep. For example, if PB is trying to get a line of credit, the bank could view that as a potential liability.
2) Neither side wants to show any cards. For example, the FB people could publicly state that they want every backer to get $ back, but could send a private letter to PB saying only settle with the people signing this letter. This might save PB from having to pay more out / discourage other people not on the letter, etc
3) It can attract other suits. Let's say the FB folks demand $1M and make it known, somebody might organize more backers and ask for $750k
n815e wrote: PB already has spies in that group. They have seen the letter even if they refuse to accept it from the post office.
"Spies?" Ah yes, I'm actually one of them. Now-silent founder Rick is the other one
Honestly, if PB's fan-friends/white knights think they need to "infiltrate" that group to keep Kevin abreast of "the situation", I feel rather sorry for their waste of time.
n815e wrote: PB already has spies in that group. They have seen the letter even if they refuse to accept it from the post office.
"Spies?" Ah yes, I'm actually one of them. Now-silent founder Rick is the other one
Honestly, if PB's fan-friends/white knights think they need to "infiltrate" that group to keep Kevin abreast of "the situation", I feel rather sorry for their waste of time.
I know that the group admin is wary of them, threatening to boot suspected spies out of the group. Personally, I feel they are going to get the information anyway, let it be open. But there are fan friends in that group who report to Palladium. I'm sure they think they are doing Kevin a favor.
n815e wrote: PB already has spies in that group. They have seen the letter even if they refuse to accept it from the post office.
"Spies?" Ah yes, I'm actually one of them. Now-silent founder Rick is the other one
Honestly, if PB's fan-friends/white knights think they need to "infiltrate" that group to keep Kevin abreast of "the situation", I feel rather sorry for their waste of time.
I know that the group admin is wary of them, threatening to boot suspected spies out of the group. Personally, I feel they are going to get the information anyway, let it be open. But there are fan friends in that group who report to Palladium. I'm sure they think they are doing Kevin a favor.
Ah, paranoia on both sides, I guess.
As for NMI, I believe he was booted from the group some time back, unless he got back in under another name.
Still no post on the FB group whether the letter was returned rejected or accepted, or if there was a response back to the author. Radio silence on all fronts - and probably will remain that way until at least Gencon.
It has been a long time of "progress" but I am now putting some models I have together.
It is making me happy about SOMETHING Robotech so is worth doing:
Had to pin these bad boys since some connections seemed a bit skimpy so brass rod was used.
I cannot use normal glue other than super-glue, anything MEK or of that nature may melt the stuff.
Very pleased with the detail, I am rather excited to paint these up in the "classic" paint job.
Other than NOW having to make another bare bones VT squad to cover when they are shot out of their armor, I should get that Monster together I keep meaning to do.
The only issue is it is made of a more "fuzzy" materail so I have had to seal it with some watered down white glue to seal it better.
I shall have my complete Robotech game... it may take as long as the license to run out on Harmony Gold but I can at least claim better progress than PB!
I cannot fathom how many pieces Super VT's would be, if made in the same style as the standard ones we got, but as with many people I always loved that design, and the notion of having a flight or two of them captured my imagination during the campaign.
Stormonu wrote:Hah, hah - nice! Well, PB had their chance, these look pretty decent. I'm guessing they're 3D printed?
Any chance of a shot of the back of these guys?
I will get some pictures up when I get home shortly.
Some assembly required: 8 pieces not including the head or base.
A tiny bit less than a VT.
Forar wrote:Wow, those are great.
I cannot fathom how many pieces Super VT's would be, if made in the same style as the standard ones we got, but as with many people I always loved that design, and the notion of having a flight or two of them captured my imagination during the campaign.
So young, so naive...
Anyway, keep up the great work, Talizvar.
I have some "add-on" bits for the Super-VT... I am a little afraid.
Not using the original base model is looking a little more sane... I will try one and see if my sanity survives.
Using porous material adds to the fun.
I felt I was not really contributing to the group in a nice way so working on these may help you guys push through the pain and get what you want out of this train wreck by dusting off some models.
In a selfish way, it gives me concrete results that should fuel getting more done.
I did a binge session of playing Pillars of Eternity for a few weeks so I need to stay away from the computer a while and DM'ed 5th edition for the first time and nearly melted my brain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay,
Other side here (it appears background got better focus than foreground):
Then I got a bit of this stuff to do:
Note: Super-VT stuff on the left... it be very wee.
Female power armor was a bit... challenging.
Not fit for view until I pin the living heck out of it and possibly green stuff depending on how good a join I do.
Fingers did not survive well, I will have to do some creative brass rod bending and TINY drilling.
Note, only model assembly and the anticipated paint are my skills, everything else is from the hard work of others.
What is that phrase? "Standing on the shoulders of giants?" or is that a Zentradi?
I do want to go back to the "Wave 1" stuff and get some more things together.
I need a couple more Pod squads: it would not do for the guys to get outnumbered but those Gnerl will be a scary equalizer.
Looks like an article for the release of the trade paperback version (the bigger multiple issue compilations you find in places like Barnes and Noble) of the newest incarnation of Robotech comics. From both the article and the few things I've read elsewhere, it's apparently a sort of semi-faithful reboot.
Yup, just like water boils at room temperature in a vacuum, Robotech can apparently boil in the absence of any visible progress according to Palladium a year or two ago.
The new comic is garbage and if by faithful reboot you mean some bizarre time warp where the present crew come back from the future at some point and get discovered dead by others who then interact with the present crew that haven't died yet as they haven't gone far enough into the future to return from it.
Writing is bad.
Art is bad (aover and interior).
Avoid it unless you are a masochist.
jaymz wrote: The new comic is garbage and if by faithful reboot you mean some bizarre time warp where the present crew come back from the future at some point and get discovered dead by others who then interact with the present crew that haven't died yet as they haven't gone far enough into the future to return from it.
Writing is bad.
Art is bad (aover and interior).
Avoid it unless you are a masochist.
I haven't read it but was referring to just the look superficially that seems free of the race and gender swaps that are typically done nowadays for shock value and to increase "diversity".
I read the first issue and can confirm: writing is bad, art is bad. Thankfully I was not the one that bought the issue, I would have been upset if I had paid money for it
Swabby wrote: Omg this update. Palladiuk Books is warning us of malicious links on the campaign page.
The whole campaign page is a malicious link! ... ba dum dum tisk...... I hope someone kept the original info that was linked there (maybe the original rules release?). The images and video were hosted on kickstarter iirc. I won't risk my own computer by trying to click it though to see if it is legit. The cynic in me is wondering if this is a rehalf assed redux of Prodos' AVP "ip dispute" that took down that campaign page.
Swabby wrote: Omg this update. Palladiuk Books is warning us of malicious links on the campaign page.
The whole campaign page is a malicious link! ... ba dum dum tisk...... I hope someone kept the original info that was linked there (maybe the original rules release?). The images and video were hosted on kickstarter iirc. I won't risk my own computer by trying to click it though to see if it is legit. The cynic in me is wondering if this is a rehalf assed redux of Prodos' AVP "ip dispute" that took down that campaign page.
As far as I can remember, it was the graphic with the contents to the main pledge. I saved a copy years ago just in case that link ever went away (since it wasnt on the KS servers). I'll try and attach it.
Not really. No conspiracy here. It didn't stay up long enough that it got the Kickstarter EMail sent out, let alone it being a recent deletion.
I'm pretty garbage about deleting emails (it's not for any reason beyond laziness), and I've got all the KSU's going back to #49, and #153 was never received. And as #154 was the first Gencon for RRT (that they literally missed the container on), it's well before they started hunkering down on stuff.
So... I think we can just chalk that up to a glitch, and not something more devious.
Swabby wrote: Omg this update. Palladiuk Books is warning us of malicious links on the campaign page.
The whole campaign page is a malicious link! ... ba dum dum tisk...... I hope someone kept the original info that was linked there (maybe the original rules release?). The images and video were hosted on kickstarter iirc. I won't risk my own computer by trying to click it though to see if it is legit. The cynic in me is wondering if this is a rehalf assed redux of Prodos' AVP "ip dispute" that took down that campaign page.
As far as I can remember, it was the graphic with the contents to the main pledge. I saved a copy years ago just in case that link ever went away (since it wasnt on the KS servers). I'll try and attach it.
I know the rules link, and the original ForceOrgs have also been broken for several years. Cause I wanted to find something back before Mike had finished his (or possibly as a comparison to Mike's?) and they were broken then.
Stormonu wrote: Main campaign page seems to be intact (if I can trust my Avast software), but I'm guessing any links to things such as contacts go to malicious sites.
Does anyone know who posted the update? Was it Wayne? I guess Scott must have fled the dumpster fire...
As of a week ago, some anonymous PB flunky said he was still employed and working on the Bestiaries and the Open House (and responding to a commentor, RRT), as of approx 11 days ago, Don't know who posted it, but unless he's talking in the third person (and I wouldn't rule out a narcissistic personality disorder), it's not Scott.
Just like the most recent "Virus Update", PB seem to have taken to posting anonymously, so they can avoid personal responsibility and the harsher criticisms.
So, they're fully aware they've missed multiple windows for providing information, and that the schedule for RRT Updates has gone to hell. They just don't care, and seem prepared to weather the storm.
I mean, that the latest KSU doesn't have a timeline for a revised Update on the Kickstarter itself, indicates that there don't appear to be any plans to do so in the near future. Nor does it apologize for or explain the 6 week (and counting) delay.
So we're back to months of silence, an apology for it being late, a promise to do better, and then back to silence again, that we had from early 2015 through mid 2017.
I just found this thread in order to discover what happened to my participation in this « project ».
I forgot about that project until recently when I found a sprue of Valkyrie in a box.
I contacted PB asking for a refund, they refused.
I asked again, no answer yet.
I filed a FTC complain.
If PB doesn’t answer to my request, then i’ll go to next step with a FBI fraud claim, a phone call to the local police enforcement and a phone call to the local media.
I’ve read the FTC vs CHEVALIER decision, if the FTC acted for 112000$ failed KS, I’m wondering what they will do on 1,4M$ one.
It is sad that this failed so monumentally. It could have been a great product....
Good luck Jul - hope you have more luck than we've had.
It's been thoroughly frustrating that we haven't been able to prod PB into action, KS doesn't care since they got their cut, the BBB is a joke and the government agencies (AG, FTC, etc.) just don't give a damn about a few people being out of their "toys".
I’m not expecting to get my investment back.
I’m still wondering if I want this project to be completed or not.
I have that small hint of hope that if enough pressure is applied, things bend or break.
It’s a collective effort ultimately. The lawsuit is a long stretch as most likely any gain would be from whatever PB assets still have and they’ll most likely not cover or barely all the legal fees
The FTC route might be a more viable option as there is a precedent.
Also this case is not about me losing a few hundreds bucks, it’s more about a PB misappropriation of 1,4 millions is what has all the appearance of a fraud.
My educated guess is that their inexperience in managing such a large project led to its failure. ND most likely provided them with a game ready to go and then PB screwed up by underestimating the cost of production and logistics. They probably wasted the Wave 2 budget on the shipping of Wave 1.
I’ve seen the claims of suits being rented by PB at conventions. While it’s a stupid business decision, it’s a long shot to prove the misappropriation of the KS funds.
One point we have to remember is that PB is nothing more than a mom&pop business run from a glorified garage that got overwhelmed by the Robotech project. They don’t have the knowledge nor the capacity to fulfill their KS commitments, the reason why ND was brought in the first place....
Now they are stuck with a lack of liquidity in order to move the project forward. We’ll soon get a flash sale from PB announced for some random digital books to cover their most basic expenditures.
I think it would be easier to buy PB than to sue them, at least it would be cheaper....
@jul - PB gambled away the Wave 2 budget on additional Wave 1 production for retail profits. They figured that they could basically triple up on profit by producing a massive amount of Wave 1 product at nearly zero cost for full retail prices. That's why they have a warehouse full of Wave 1 core boxes and no budget for Wave 2.
PB took backer monies for Wave 2 and converted them into Wave 1, rather than safeguarding them for the production of Wave 2.
This, after PB taking RRT monies and spending them on the overdue RIFTS NG books. That's outright fraud there, but explains why PB gambled away the Wave 2 funds.
JohnHwangDD wrote: @jul - PB gambled away the Wave 2 budget on additional Wave 1 production for retail profits. They figured that they could basically triple up on profit by producing a massive amount of Wave 1 product at nearly zero cost for full retail prices. That's why they have a warehouse full of Wave 1 core boxes and no budget for Wave 2.
PB took backer monies for Wave 2 and converted them into Wave 1, rather than safeguarding them for the production of Wave 2.
This, after PB taking RRT monies and spending them on the overdue RIFTS NG books. That's outright fraud there, but explains why PB gambled away the Wave 2 funds.
are there any proofs of that?
they never really supported the product after the launch, so expecting sales high enough to cover for the production of wave 2 was childish as best....
using the money for other products is blatant fraud, they were expecting making high sales there as well?
anyway, anyone contacted the Michigan AG on that matters?
But there's almost no other real plausible explanation here.
that's so sad in a certain way... if only they would have use the funds to improve their life style or showing up to cons with a life size valkyrie replica or stuff like that...
instead they show up with nothing.....
I've got the emails of the 2 counsels that worked on the Erik Chevalier case, I'll contact them to see if they know the FTC contact that works the case and if we can contact them.
my police contact told me that the local authorities would not have any power and can only transmit the info to the FBI. I'm still going to draft an email to Westland PD with my case number from the FTC, at least there's a trace and if enough people do it, that might increase the chance of something happening.
in my past experience with internet and mail frauds, what counts is the number of people contacting the authorities and the repetition of it, in a polite manner.
I'm evaluating the idea of getting the media involved. some of those networks love stories like this and can be an asset at some point. Both Palladium Books and especially Harmony Gold have a decent legal background.
J.
PS: I'm still disappointed that I'll never get the Monster model...
JohnHwangDD wrote: @jul - PB gambled away the Wave 2 budget on additional Wave 1 production for retail profits. They figured that they could basically triple up on profit by producing a massive amount of Wave 1 product at nearly zero cost for full retail prices. That's why they have a warehouse full of Wave 1 core boxes and no budget for Wave 2.
PB took backer monies for Wave 2 and converted them into Wave 1, rather than safeguarding them for the production of Wave 2.
This, after PB taking RRT monies and spending them on the overdue RIFTS NG books. That's outright fraud there, but explains why PB gambled away the Wave 2 funds.
are there any proofs of that?
they never really supported the product after the launch, so expecting sales high enough to cover for the production of wave 2 was childish as best....
using the money for other products is blatant fraud, they were expecting making high sales there as well?
anyway, anyone contacted the Michigan AG on that matters?
j.
I'm absolutely sure that proof exists at PB, but we'll never see it without a court ordered subpoena. Even then, I'd expect PB to declare bankruptcy and destroy the evidence, rather than comply.
Well, that debate is its own massive ball of wax. Harmony Gold may not own anything related to the property in all actuality after the court decision in Japan in the early 2000s
Yeah, there seems to be murmurs that HG shot itself in the foot in a reset spat with Tatsunoko (one of the supposed copyright holders of the Macross license). It appears that Tatsunoko did not have the rights it thought to license most of the mecha and characters from Macross, and that HG's license is up for renewal in 2021. With the two having gone at it legally, hope is Tatsunoko won't renew the license then - or at the least, HG won't be able to access the Macross portion of Robotech - and by extension, PB.
Which, in short, means that come 2021, this KS is a dead duck.
Also, to your previous question, both Rick (a former poster) and I have sent letters to the Michigan AG, around 2015. However, a recent poster has been insinuating we sent it to the wrong court/person.
DEZOAT wrote: Oh by the way is anyone here planning to go Palladium Books Open House 2018 ? I know its a joke but what the heck.
We should organize a trip there, 3-4 full coaches loaded with RTT backers...
Anyway...
I talked to a law enforcement agent. According to him, the local police won’t do anything beside transferring the info to the FTC or the FBI.
The FBI won’t act until there are serious evidence of fraud. PB being a private company, it’s a bit more tricky to get public records. Unless there are clear proofs that PB used the Kickstarter money to pay for unrelated products/bills/freelancers/fanboy cleaning the toilets- ah no, not those, those have to pay to do that......etc, the FBI won’t move.
The FTC is likely to open an investigation if enough complains are made to them.
I’m still trying to find a way to file a Mail fraud claim, as the local law enforcement will act on those.
For foreign backers, i’m looking at specific countries starting with Canada. Pretty sure there’s a way to file complain against a US company.
Concerning the lack of updates, Scott lives in Texas, he’s far enough from Westland that he most likely do not give a gak. I found traces of him back to 2010. Most likely a fan-friend KS brought in. I hope Scott realized on his way what a gak show the Kickstarter was and déicides to do the honey badger.... Anyway, we probably never going to see an update from him any time soon.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm absolutely sure that proof exists at PB, but we'll never see it without a court ordered subpoena. Even then, I'd expect PB to declare bankruptcy and destroy the evidence, rather than comply.
I felt a happy moment there.
This needs to happen....
So the black curtain in the background is to hide the RTT wave 2 kits..... or just more dusty RTT starter set....
My FTC claim has been accepted and is now in the system. Now I can call them and tell them to regroup all FTC claims about the Kickstarter all together....
First response back I got was that the complaint was being reviewed with a link to a guide on how to avoid fraud.
Got a second response a few days later with the same link as their final resolution.
jul wrote: So the black curtain in the background is to hide the RTT wave 2 kits..... or just more dusty RTT starter set....
My FTC claim has been accepted and is now in the system. Now I can call them and tell them to regroup all FTC claims about the Kickstarter all together....
First response back I got was that the complaint was being reviewed with a link to a guide on how to avoid fraud.
Got a second response a few days later with the same link as their final resolution.
jul wrote: So the black curtain in the background is to hide the RTT wave 2 kits..... or just more dusty RTT starter set....
My FTC claim has been accepted and is now in the system. Now I can call them and tell them to regroup all FTC claims about the Kickstarter all together....
I got that same fraud response when I submitted as well :\
So it is with sadness and tremendous heartbreak that I announce that, despite our best efforts, we are unable to produce the Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave Two rewards. Moreover, after proudly carrying the legacy of Robotech® in the role-playing games medium for 30 years, our license has expired and is not being renewed.
What a useless bastard. The only silver lining there is them not renewing the Robotech license in the RPG format, etc. I'm out a good $220+ (I had two pledges). Yep, feth Kevin Siembeda.
So Kevin spent all the money on Wave 1, hoping to fund Wave 2, just like we guessed years ago. Only he's been insisting all along that the money was there to do Wave 2.
Lots of throwing Ninja Division under the bus. From everything I've heard, Palladium didn't go with the manufacturer ND suggested, and that's what caused the sculpt problems, as well as (presumably) all the problems with number of parts because the mold manufacturer was garbage.
Edit: Kevin has admitted their license for Robotech is over.
Palladium’s license for RRT and the Robotech® RPG book series has ended. That means we will be liquidating ALL Robotech® products, starting with RRT backers who want to receive Wave One items for their Wave Two rewards.
It’s going to be rage fest on the KS page.....
He got the balls to trade his stuff for more money that what is going to sell it. He also has only one month to liquidate the Robotech products. After that he can’t sell it anymore.
Maybe the lawyering up happening recently got him scared since he knows he doesn’t have the funds for anything...
I mean he’s discounting pdf’s....
"As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter."
Feth those guys and the white knights they rode in on! Also, I'm really tempted to push for a refund instead of any other option at this point. I have alot of money in wave two items in this.
John Prins wrote: Future predictions time: Kevin will have to sell his IPs over this debacle, No great loss, he was barely doing anything with them anyways.
I would totally buy some of his IP.
And actually try to do something with it. While mocking Palladium in the dedications in the front of the books.
Palladium’s Business Manager, Scott Gibbons, intended to write this post, but I thought it should come from me.
1) Yeah right!
2) Is Scott Gibbons still PB's "Business Manager"
And do all of those numbers really add up? I don't think they do.
And there's SO much wrong with this entire segment:
What we can offer – Wave One Rewards for Wave Two
We know it is not what you expected, but we would like to offer you Wave One rewards in exchange for the unrealized Wave Two rewards – but you will have to pay for shipping. We estimate shipping to all 5,000+ backers around the world will cost $120,000-$160,000; and, at this point, Palladium Books just does not have the resources to cover that expense.
We will do our best to ship as inexpensively as possible, and we will only pass along our actual costs – with Palladium covering the cost of labor.
We will post the details about the reward exchange in the following update.
I would like to state that the people at Harmony Gold USA, Inc., have been wonderful partners to work with these many years. They went above and beyond the call of duty when it came to their assistance with trying to keep RRT alive. Our thanks to everyone involved.
My thanks and humble appreciation to everyone who supported Robotech® RPG Tactics. First and foremost, that includes you, our Kickstarter backers, followed by others who bought and loved RRT, everyone who had a direct hand in its creation, to play-testers, freelancers, Game Masters, and many, many others — far too many people to try to list. Literally, thousands of you. Thank you for sharing our dream. We tried our very best.
44
Wow.
With Sincere Appreciation, Kevin SiembiedaPresident, Palladium Books, Inc.
End of an era. Robotech RPGs and novels are 99% of my love for Robotech, I'm a very strange mix of depressed and elated to see Palladium lose that license. Those Robotech and Rifts RPG books made up a VERY unhealthy amount of this nerd's time in the late 1990s and I still keep PDFs of any book I don't have a physical copy of, but Palladium was a joke of a company for many years before the RPG Tactics fiasco.
That talk about Kevin being "heartbroken" is a bit of a kick in the teeth. "We tried our very best" he says. bs, nobody at Palladium has done anything remotely close to "tried their best" since Siege on Tolkien. The Robotech IP is much beloved, as proven by the number of backers and the dollar amount they pledged. They had all the support and more that they needed from fans, just go back through the early comments and see how many people were more than willing to volunteer time and money to write, playtest, edit, manage and more. All Kevin had to do was let other people run the show and sit back and collect money, instead he did absolutely everything he could to piss away any and all of their good intentions and push everyone with an ounce of competence away. He blames everyone but himself and now he's left with nothing but a warehouse full of dead stock and a pending lawsuit. I hope he loses everything.
Yup, they're really discounting how much "value" the stretch goals added into the pledge. Lol, they're even nickel and diming those of us who pledged first and got an early bird less by not giving the full value of the add ons compared to the regular later pledge on top of not spending their own left over money for shipping. The $23 I'm getting for over a dozen (maybe two dozen) missing specialty figs comes out to probably quadruple that if you go by the values per fig they charged for add ons.
Also, wanna bet that the over $300-400k unaccounted for since their two part update a few years ago was spent on wave 1 and/or operating expenses as they did nothing for years while "working" on it? We all saw this coming since 2014 except for deluded idiot savants like Peter Pidrak and the Megaversal Ambassadors who kept claiming they are still working on it. Any bets on whether Peter will apologize for his part in flame baiting unhappy customers a month or two back and for shilling for an obviously dishonest company for years?
Palladium had to have known for months that their license was NOT going to renew. That doesn't just happen overnight with a 30 day drop dead stop selling date. As with the wave split and delay, they wait to the last second to admit their feth ups.
Palladium had to have known for months that their license was NOT going to renew. That doesn't just happen overnight with a 30 day drop dead stop selling date. As with the wave split and delay, they wait to the last second to admit their feth ups.
HG has their own legal issues, so pulling the license is a smart move for them. And then, seeing how the whole things has been handled, as a licensor, I would do anything to legally end the contract with PB...
HG has their own legal issues, so pulling the license is a smart move for them. And then, seeing how the whole things has been handled, as a licensor, I would do anything to legally end the contract with PB...
HG is its own similar morass of dishonesty and greed. I wrote directly to them about the issues with the kickstarter and their public nonchalant attitude about THEIR customers getting shafted and they expressed sympathy ... that's it. They realized it was affecting their bottom line but didn't obviously care enough to do anything about it. They're probably just hoping that the possibly always upcoming but never actually arriving movie will let them keep their jobs.
If they thought a few of us "crappers" were a thorn in their side to be brushed off before....
The rage is coming out by the TON now.
I actually ENJOY the KS comments section again.
Palladium doesn't have the time/money to fulfill their remaining contractual obligations. Any bets whether they'll find the time and effort to go through the comments and still get some removed and people they just ripped off banned?
Wow... this should have happen three years ago... Maybe I will ask for rifts stuff instead...
Don't trust the dollar numbers given... Most of the pre work should have already been paid for... as I read it but they still say
they used the money from the kickstarter.. so which is it...
They upset 5000 gamers in a very niche audience.. that's a lot of customers to lose
Oh well .. nice knowing everyone... we can go back to our lives... Maybe one day I will give the Gundum game a try...at least people are still working on it..
HG has their own legal issues, so pulling the license is a smart move for them. And then, seeing how the whole things has been handled, as a licensor, I would do anything to legally end the contract with PB...
HG is its own similar morass of dishonesty and greed. I wrote directly to them about the issues with the kickstarter and their public nonchalant attitude about THEIR customers getting shafted and they expressed sympathy ... that's it. They realized it was affecting their bottom line but didn't obviously care enough to do anything about it. They're probably just hoping that the possibly always upcoming but never actually arriving movie will let them keep their jobs.
Totally agree! I particularly like the part when HG was caught laundering money with Berlusconi....
anyway, it make a good reading for the evening. I might have mentioned that before, I would have loved the game to be good and the models to be great...
So, a little math based on the pie chart....if we can believe any of Kevin's BS
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$221,683.14 for Shipping (of which, ~$150,000 was international shipping, leaving $71,683.14 for domestic shipping costs)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)
$110,841.57 for Kickstarter fees
$47,503.53 for Project Manager (Scott's salary? Nah, probably Kevin's)
$47,503.53 for Advertising and Promotion (Playing cards, cups, t-shirts, etc. I'm sure...)
$31,669.02 for Pledge Manager fees
Stormonu wrote: So, a little math based on the pie chart....if we can believe any of Kevin's BS
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$221,683.14 for Shipping (of which, ~$150,000 was international shipping, leaving $71,683.14 for domestic shipping costs)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)
$110,841.57 for Kickstarter fees
$47,503.53 for Project Manager (Scott's salary? Nah, probably Kevin's)
$47,503.53 for Advertising and Promotion (Playing cards, cups, t-shirts, etc. I'm sure...)
$31,669.02 for Pledge Manager fees
I'm on mobile right now but it might be interesting if someone at a full pc compared the numbers claimed here to those during that two part history of everything it's not our fault update back in 2015. I'm curious if and how much the numbers have been fudged in Palladium's favor during the intervening two years and a half years with nothing to show for it.
I'm never buying another Palladium product ever again. The sheer audacity to blame others and throw an entire company they sub-contracted out to under the bus and not accept even the tiniest bit of responsibility for this up ... that's a really weak and spineless leader who will amount to nothing.
I want my remaining $400 in wave 2 pledge money refunded in cash. you and your gracious offer to sell us Wave 1 product at MSRP and pay for shipping just so you can get it out of your warehouse.
This entire Kickstarter has been a show from the beginning. I'm finally glad it's over, and hope the legal proceedings against Palladium and it's owner can now begin.
Stormonu wrote: So, a little math based on the pie chart....if we can believe any of Kevin's BS
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$221,683.14 for Shipping (of which, ~$150,000 was international shipping, leaving $71,683.14 for domestic shipping costs)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)
$110,841.57 for Kickstarter fees
$47,503.53 for Project Manager (Scott's salary? Nah, probably Kevin's)
$47,503.53 for Advertising and Promotion (Playing cards, cups, t-shirts, etc. I'm sure...)
$31,669.02 for Pledge Manager fees
I'm on mobile right now but it might be interesting if someone at a full pc compared the numbers claimed here to those during that two part history of everything it's not our fault update back in 2015. I'm curious if and how much the numbers have been fudged in Palladium's favor during the intervening two years and a half years with nothing to show for it.
it's almost doubled...
Update #178, June 2015
"When we started to get serious about Robotech® RPG Tactics™, talks naturally segued into how do we afford all this? Ninja Division estimated the cost to be between $550,000 and $900,000 to make the game and expansion packs we all wanted to see made. And not just enough to provide to the Kickstarter backers, but enough to get the game into the retail market. "
TalonZahn wrote: Someone that knows Forar needs to call and check on him.
He might have passed out from the "Admissions" Update.
Heh, Morgan just brought it to my attention. I was happily watching Last Week Tonight and building Shadows of Brimstone minis (two things I enjoy, rather than this gakshow which is basically an unpaid academic internship).
Wow. Just... there's a lot to unpack here, but as others have noted, it is *unmitigated bullgak* that they give us a pro-rated amount in credit, but charge full MSRP for compensation. I'm owed something around $400-500 based on their own math, and 5-6 core boxes doesn't quite cover it, especially since I'd apparently have to pitch in another couple hundred bucks in shipping. Feth that.
So, the project has officially failed. Feth compensation in materials. I'll take a pro-rated refund, or even a portion thereof, over paying more money for more boxes of stuff I don't want, can't use, and can't resell because unlike wave one, they're about to flood the market in a fire sale.
Seeing the numbers broken down (the percentages they included versus the expected amounts from the total funding) raises so many questions. Also, keep in mind they should be higher; according to Wayne they brought in about 10% more through the Pledge Manager, so let's not overlook that extra $100k+ that they're commenting on Pledge Manager Fees but isn't accounted for in those amounts.
That'd mean spending somewhere around $52k in advertising? Bullgak. Where? They whined about wasting money advertising RRT in magazines in late 2013, and that was like hundreds or thousands. I'm wary of believing they spent over 50 grand in advertising this game. I'm also questioning ND getting 300k+ for their work. Maybe they did, but that feels like they're fudging what they had to pay out substantially.
In summary... it feels good to know that I was right to call them out on their bullgak. It's a hollow victory, but thousands of gamers got *screwed* here, myself among them. I'll take what tiny victories I can.
Saw that... calling the Kickstarter a success is a bit, how to say, delusional.... I have other words coming to mind but it doesn’t Translate well into English....
Agreed, they are either pulled out of thin air, or they have the numbers to work out the percentages.
So, give us the numbers. And account for the pledge manager funds, because otherwise that seems like it could be another $100k+ unaccounted for, and I wouldn't put it past these clowns to try to quietly walk off with that pile of cash left over and conveniently not mentioned in the alleged 'coming clean'.
I thought I heard Kevin conveniently moved into a new house as well during this debacle...surely none of the money went there, right? I hope that was a silly rumour, but I doubt it.
I was looking for core box numbers and ran across this fun little jem I posted on 5/24/2015....
Just some random musings (which I'm probably wrong on):
Looking back at update #156, there is a picture of crates marked "Main Box". There is 3 per crate, and 5824 crates. That's 17,472 core game boxes created for Wave 1. Of those, 6,684 for reserved for backers. That means, not counting anyone who sought a refund, they have 10,788 core sets to get rid of - not counting who knows how many add-on boxes. Personally, I'd be surprised if more than half (5,000) of those boxes went out to retail stores. If productions costs are right at 50% (which have got to be MUCH lower), it's pretty obvious they blew through the funds on getting Wave 1 out the door (at 50%, that would be $873,163.20 for core boxes - not likely that high, I think).
Compare that to what Kevin said in the last e-mail murmur that one of their typical book runs is in the 300-600 print range. Their typical book sells for $15-20, so that's about $4,500 to $12,000 net from a book run, which might give them somewhere between $2,250 - $6,000 profit (if their lucky). Unfortunately, I don't know how long it takes them to go through a print run, but I gander it's 3-6 months at best. So, from a single book they're possibly making between $375 - $2,000 a month per "new" book. I imagine that books that are 6+ months old sell only a handful of copies apiece ... don't have any idea what their sell rate is, but assuming between 1-5 copies per title, we're looking at 196 titles @ $15-20 each ($2,940 - $19,600 net total, $1,470 - $9,800 profit at 50%).
Finally, in the last murmur where Kevin mentions crowdfunding the next OH, it sounds like there were about 70 people in attendance. My local Hubcon is about that size and that's 2/3ths the size of my graduating High School class from 86' in Mississippi! At $60 a head (when prices went up), that means they raked in somewhere around $4,200 (probably less) net. And they only do this once every three years or so.
Why do I mention all this? Well, if the cost of the figures for Wave 2 are anywhere near the costs for Wave 1 (assuming they blew the $1.4M wad on the first run), look at what sort of skyscraper Palladium is looking at to acquire the funds to pay for it. If my seat-of-the-pants calculations are anywhere close, PB is looking at 147+ months (12 years, 3 months) to rebuild the capital to produce Wave 2 from its "day to day" sales.
If anyone has some better/closer numbers on what PB earns, I'd certainly like to hear it, because those numbers above certainly do not inspire confidence for PB completing Wave 2.
Looks like I was at least 20% off on my calculation for manufacturing cost, but if you take the 17,472 core boxes and the manufacturing cost (yeah, I know - I should factor in the add-on boxes, but feth it), at most it cost $34.44 to make each core box (factoring in add-ons at about 20%, that'd make each core box about $25 to manufacture).
Don't know what my point is other than they are really trying to get away with "pennies on the dollar" on remaining stock. I hope they get stuck with that stock and buried under it. It'll hopefully take the place of those E.T. cartridges in some landfill.
He'll sell it to his girlfriend, employees, family, and/or fan friends for a penny on the dollar the day of the deadline and ebay will get flooded with this gak over the next couple of months as they try to sell it. Who knows... maybe their ol' pal Kevin will even get an extra special early totally unrelated birthday gift in 2018 too. Either way, between all the circle of postive reinforcement around Kevin plus bulk online clearance retailers, I doubt Palladium will be destroying any remaining stock.
Also, remember all that talk about robotech heating up and selling like hotcakes during the sales? What happened to those profits? We, as backers, possibly paid for the development/production/shipping of those retail boxes and the profits from those direct sales should have been used for paying for our shipping right now.
Stormonu wrote: Looks like I was at least 20% off on my calculation for manufacturing cost, but if you take the 17,472 core boxes and the manufacturing cost (yeah, I know - I should factor in the add-on boxes, but feth it), at most it cost $34.44 to make each core box (factoring in add-ons at about 20%, that'd make each core box about $25 to manufacture).
Don't know what my point is other than they are really trying to get away with "pennies on the dollar" on remaining stock. I hope they get stuck with that stock and buried under it. It'll hopefully take the place of those E.T. cartridges in some landfill.
You should add on the add-on boxes, but you should be subtracting 11,000 core boxes. Backers did not, and SHOULD NOT be paying for retail stock. Palladium are more than permitted to take advantage of any bulk discounting/economy of scale advantage by making an adjacent purchase of retail stock, but Kickstarter funds are for Kickstarter rewards and fulfillment. Anything else is misappropriation, gambling with backer funds on retail sales, to recoup costs.
So by my math, Palladium is claiming 38% of $1.58M for Manufacturing (3D Corrections, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, BattleFoam bags). Then another 14% in shipping for (Import from China, Domestic and International shipping).
Lets assume that the section of that 14% assigned to Import from China is at least as much as the cost of the BattleFoam bags. I think that's a more than reasonable expectation.
So the 38% now is inclusive of (3D Corrections, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, Import from China).
38% of the $1.58M is $601711.39.
The approximate backer count for Kickstarter fulfillment is ~6000, based on some reasonable assumptions.
Meaning PB are claiming it cost $100.29 to manufacture and import each backer copy of a BattleCry.
And that's not counting the $60.70 per Battlecry in development costs (23% of funding).
PB are currently claiming they've bankrupted the campaign by spending ~$160.99 + shipping, to produce each battlecry box.
Yeah, I didn't count the addon boxes, but if they weren't a trivial amount per backer (because again, retail stock DOES NOT COUNT), then I'll be shocked.
I'd be wanting to see the books on that accounting. And no, Kevin, your word isn't fething good enough. Your lies, both openly and by ommission have been exposed.
As Kevin claims in Update 186, a full year after all money was apparently exhausted, "If there were ever any type of investigation, Palladium has accurate records, receipts, correspondences and documentation for every expense and transaction we’ve made regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™."
You know how there's a "Risks" section for every Kickstarter project that gets launched?
I must have missed the part in the RRT one where it said "We actually don't have a clue how much it's going to cost to make minis. If it turns out that we don't have the money to do it, then we won't".
HudsonD wrote: So... What does that do to the potential fraud investigations now ?
Well... the admission of failure removes the liability shield of Kickstarter*, so a lawsuit should have an easier time getting the courts to permit discovery. Because the claimants will want proof that there is both no money remaining, and no evidence of any misappropriation.
* The Kickstarter liability shield being that as long as the Creator was "working on it", no refunds were required to be issued. I honestly don't think that'd have held up in court, but it WOULD have required much more fighting (and therefore expense), with no possibility of success, and likely several expensive appeals.
And that's when things will get interesting.
As some have pointed out, there's unlikely to be a pot of gold (ie, actual refunds) at the end of the rainbow, but given Kevin's actions and attitude through the campaign, I don't care. He should not be able to walk away with only his reputation hurt, that he can easily dismiss (those donkey-cave backers!) and continue with business as normal (even if business as normal is the game publishing equivalent of subsistence farming). The company deserves to be shuttered after this debacle. Kevin needs to actually see some consequence for his criminal mismanagement (if not actual financial crimes, which may come up in any court case).
I'll happily donate a pineapple ($50AU, about $40US) to a credible class action. I may no longer have standing, but I still feel dicked out of my dream (even if mine ended March 14th, 2014).
At this point, he's just a shill for Kevin that claims to have a direct line to his ear.
@Morgan, I quoted your post up there in the comments section, it was better written than my working rage post there.
So far the general consensus on all the pages/groups I'm in, is that no one cares about an actual refund anymore, they just want to see Kevin and Palladium burned to the ground.
jul wrote: I can’t believe he found the models “great”....
They suck in so many ways....
Well, to be fair, he never had any interest in building the models or playing with them. No one in the office did. Even prior to the release of wave 1, they went to the major retailer convention GAMA trying to sell stores on their new product line with miniatures that were haphazardly built with huge gaps either without bases or on random different bases. No one at this company could be bothered with just driving over to their local FLGS and buying 3-4 packs of plastic bases to present a consistent look for their upcoming product line. In the years since, they couldn't be bothered to even put *ANY* pictures of the minis they had painted on their online store url for the products let alone a proper gallery that a minis line deserves. They weren't just a fish out of water but a fish rotting in the garbage from the very beginning.
If Peter was told the truth and some other company got the rights to a miniatures game, what company would actually think that is a good idea?
I mean, unless it is ND, who already developed the Macross part of a game line, it will take them a couple of years of development and production. With th Macross license potentially expiring in three years, there is no time to see a return on investment.
Forget trying to get it crowdfunded.
You can't really go with compatible miniatures because the secondary market will be flooded with cheap alternativves.
A change in compatibility will alienate a number of people looking at boxes of product in their basement and not wanting to reinvest.
Stormonu wrote: So, a little math based on the pie chart....
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)
My question on the money problem is as follows:
1. Licensing? RRT is a RPG product, didn't Palladium already have a license for RPG products?
2. There are roughly 10 models in Wave 1 (3 for Valks and modes, 4 Destroids, 1 Glaug, and count the Regults as 2 models). So... per model, 36k for design, 60k for manufacturing. In the experience of people here, is this reasonable? (Yes, we still have to account for game and box design etc. but I don't think that would be the primary cost.)
It's down to backers to file suit to enforce that agreement though.
From the Accountability link (also from 2012):
What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?
If problems come up, creators are expected to post a Project Update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.
It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
Now...a lot of that is very wishy-washy and quite under-defined.
But, are the backers here satisfied with that last update?
n815e wrote: If Peter was told the truth and some other company got the rights to a miniatures game, what company would actually think that is a good idea?
I mean, unless it is ND, who already developed the Macross part of a game line, it will take them a couple of years of development and production. With th Macross license potentially expiring in three years, there is no time to see a return on investment.
Forget trying to get it crowdfunded.
You can't really go with compatible miniatures because the secondary market will be flooded with cheap alternativves.
A change in compatibility will alienate a number of people looking at boxes of product in their basement and not wanting to reinvest.
It's looking like a losing license to buy.
The only way I could see it working would be if they left Macross behind and did something based on one of the other two parts. If they put out rules for "unnamed and unspecified units that totally aren't all the released RRT models" as a courtesy, they might be able to lure some people with existing models in to try the game and get them to buy new kits. Leaving the most popular part of Robotech behind would probably make it an uphill battle, but getting the license for Southern Cross and/or Mospeada without the baggage of having to fight with Tatsunoko for Macross might actually be doable.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
and ask for the 'refund' that KS says they're due.
"To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced."
Knowing what we know now, that there is a blatant lie and was used to defraud potential "investors" by misrepresenting their current progress and positioning in the project.
Shipping. The next big cost increase came with the announcement that all freight carriers from UPS and FedEx to the United States Postal Service were implementing Dimensional Weight. In the recent past, a shipper paid by the pound to send a package. Then someone in the shipping industry came up with the idea that shippers of large but lightweight packages should pay by the size of the package, not just the weight.
Dimensional Weight has been in the "industry" for over a decade.
"In the recent past, a shipper paid by the pound" - well, no, Dimensional Weight became industry standard in 2007. Even in 2013 (when the KS happened) it had been standard for years.
I like how they try to blame a boogeyman for their incompetence. "Then SOMEONE in the shipping industry..."
how about "Then SOMEONE gave Kevin a modicum of responsibility and he ruined everything"
I think alot of us have been there but, like the mafia and other bad and dishonest things, the project keeps sucking people back into the discussion. I spent most of 2017 away but the tiny morsel of hope with Scott's hiring souring months later brought me back
Yeah, whatever.
Kevin needed some way to clear the books and be able to sell.
I really do feel for those who are owed a fair bit of money: their proposed exchange sucks.
I will take the damn credit and get whatever, I only am owed a little over $100 (according to them)..
I can at least guarantee I will not have any dealings with them ever again.
Oh darn, Anime North... well, they will have jack to show there for sure, it will be easy to miss them.
Well, we could probably talk for a year or two yet, I am sure the "refund" will drag out for a few years.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
and ask for the 'refund' that KS says they're due.
And quite a few backers* have received.
"As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter."
I don't see any caveats there.
* Myself included, in a message from March 20, 2014, days after SpartanGate and months before all money is claimed to have been spent.
Scott appeared on the Palladium forums to confirm that there will be Robotech at the open house. I imagine those games will be a rather grim affair? Maybe they can make a few dollars live streaming the sadness or delusion.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Scott appeared on the Palladium forums to confirm that there will be Robotech at the open house. I imagine those games will be a rather grim affair? Maybe they can make a few dollars live streaming the sadness or delusion.
the Open House is not after the end of the license? that seems to be really awkward to do demo and/or tourney for a game you're not suppose to sell anymore...
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
and ask for the 'refund' that KS says they're due.
And quite a few backers* have received.
"As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter."
I don't see any caveats there.
* Myself included, in a message from March 20, 2014, days after SpartanGate and months before all money is claimed to have been spent.
Well, there you go.
Per KS *AND* PB/KS, you're now free and clear to request refunds, and not have to take them in the form of product you don't want.
Alpharius Walks wrote: Scott appeared on the Palladium forums to confirm that there will be Robotech at the open house. I imagine those games will be a rather grim affair? Maybe they can make a few dollars live streaming the sadness or delusion.
I suspect Palladium Books needs all the draw they can get, soon to be lost IP or not.
Like many things with them, I think they underestimate how much Robotech brought them some consumer attention and for a brief time made them "relevant" again.
I think it can safely be said that PB would have never seen over a million dollars with any other IP.
Ah well, it will be some kind of ending at least.
I doubled-down on some of my Robotech stuff but at least I can mess with it and not feel any tweak of obligation to the "official" rules... not that many cared anyway.
Here's a message I got in 2014, asking for a refund, emphasis mine. I'm sure many of us got it. :
Dear D***,
We share your frustration and apologize for the unfortunate delay. Palladium Books has been working tirelessly to bring Robotech® fans a superior product. Progress is being made and we are moving toward manufacturing of the First Wave of releases.
Please understand, as a Kickstarter backer, you have not purchased or pre-ordered a product. You have “supported a project” in exchange for a promise of a reward. That reward had an original estimated delivery date which has passed, but that date was always an estimate, not a guaranteed deadline.
By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that. We are currently working toward doing just that.
As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.
In the meantime, please be patient. We appreciate your support of the project, and your pledge will help us to produce a fantastic product that we think everyone will enjoy.
I have this strange suspicion that PB’s license with HG actually ended Jan 1 (and they were aware of this in Dec, thus the lack of updates from Scott), and they’ve been in a grace period to unload dead stock since the start of the year, and that grace period ends at the end of March (a 3-month period) - probably at the demand of HG after failed attempts to re-negotiation an extension. I’d be likely to bet that the missing update (#215?) was going to address the issue, but was canned for whatever reason.
Has anyone actually e-mailed PB with the above refund quote asking for a refund? Have they responded?
I deleted my Kickstarter account, so I can’t “message” them that way, but I’m wondering if it’s worth bugging them via direct e-mail for a refund.
Stuff like this needs to be posted in the KS Comments section and (if you want) the Facebook group to bolster the stance of the consumers and rattle more sabres.
Palladium, Kevin, and KS need to be reminded of this AD NAUSEUM.
I know kevin posted thath pie chart breaking down the costs, but it does not fit the figures he posted in the actual update for wave 1. According to the text there was some $900k left, that somehow was lost when wave one completed as he states in absolute terms that after wave one the kickstarter funds were exhausted. The chart makes sense if you add in costs for the non existent wave 2.
Might just be me but has kevin combined actual and proposed costs to make up the sum, while spending oodles on retail product to sell (a no no)and to fund other PB product.
In return we can now exchange missing goods at wholesale rates and pay full retail on the goods in replacement, oh and for me add another $160 for the pleasure of them sending me stuff I do not want. Er no thanks, I will be asking for a pro rated cash refund, I thnk.
Just me but is it just too coincidental that the KS banner paged went down (bad link malware) and then Kevin announces that the project is over. How many people clicked that link for the first time in years today trying to work out what they are owed?
Well, as noted above, multiple times, including here:
HudsonD wrote: Here's a message I got in 2014, asking for a refund, emphasis mine. I'm sure many of us got it. :
Dear D***,
We share your frustration and apologize for the unfortunate delay. Palladium Books has been working tirelessly to bring Robotech® fans a superior product. Progress is being made and we are moving toward manufacturing of the First Wave of releases.
Please understand, as a Kickstarter backer, you have not purchased or pre-ordered a product. You have “supported a project” in exchange for a promise of a reward. That reward had an original estimated delivery date which has passed, but that date was always an estimate, not a guaranteed deadline.
By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that. We are currently working toward doing just that.
As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.
In the meantime, please be patient. We appreciate your support of the project, and your pledge will help us to produce a fantastic product that we think everyone will enjoy.
With Appreciation,
The Palladium Books Team
Per KS' rules AND PB's own admission - and understanding of those rules - PB will give refunds to those that ask for them.
Well, if they can.
Maybe they're hoping that many (most?) will take Wave 1 stock of a now dead game instead, but p[personally, I'd opt for the cash refund they are obligated to offer instead.
at that point, they're buying time before thay can't even swap RTT products anymore...this is their only asset available and that's until the end of march...
And if they can come clean with legit numbers that show they've blown through most of the funds, AND that they didn't misappropriate anything, I could see some reasonable middle ground. "We cannot pay back pro-rated refunds, let alone full refunds, but we can distribute remaining resources along with profits from selling remaining wave one stock at a steep discount, and offer X% to backers who desire it."
Yes, yes, legal gloom and doom, nobody would take it, whatever. I'm talking to those who aren't frothing at the mouth here. If they said "we can return 50% of Pledge Manager wave 2 items" and my $426 dollars owed turned into $100, would I be happy? Not really, but it'd be closer to making good on what is owed than expecting me to pay $50-100+ in shipping, taxes, and duties, for stock I don't want and they just hope to avoid throwing out.
IF they proved that this was just a mess, that mistakes were made but they didn't try to walk off with half a million in leftover cash and whatnot, IF they were transparent enough to meet some reasonable middle ground, I could see there being the potential to have a 'pennies on the dollar, this is what we can do' situation unfold.
I don't think that will happen, I think that ship has sailed, and they seem unwilling to try such a compromise, but it's what comes to mind as an outcome that could have been reached in a more ideal world than the one we're living in.
Let's save the 'oh Forar, you don't really think that they would _____' caveats and hot takes. I'm expressing a hypothetical, and surely us literate and ostensibly intelligent gaming types can recognize it as such.
I wouldn't even mind taking a swap of Wave 1 product in place of the remaining rewards...if they hadn't given such a ridiculous and insulting exchange rate.
I added their own Email as a note/memo reminding them that they let us know they will offer refunds if they couldn't fulfill.
I also put this at the bottom under Terms and Conditions:
"You will receive an updated invoice every 30 days with an updated total. After 2 months, if you still haven’t paid, you will be reported to the credit agencies for non payment."
jul wrote: Can someone explain to me what Bad_Syntax is....
A special person who ordered infinity billion Battle Cry pledges, was going to personally show up at Gen Con and hit Kevin in the face because he was so full of rage, but eventually was given 2 of the first 3 boxes to make it to the USA and became Kevin's best friend forever.
I may be figured a fool but I will take the exchange with a clear means of retracting the funds if they pull any funny business.
Main thing I figure is: they need to get rid of stock one way or another.
Having me off the books is that bit less liability to deal with especially if any legal matters gain traction.
I still have a use for the models and can always expand my Battletech forces.
Exciting times.
Wonder how long it will take for PB to purge all things Robotech from their communication?
Cut and paste has been going on so long I am unsure they read the walls of text they produce.
jul wrote: Can someone explain to me what Bad_Syntax is....
A special person who ordered infinity billion Battle Cry pledges, was going to personally show up at Gen Con and hit Kevin in the face because he was so full of rage, but eventually was given 2 of the first 3 boxes to make it to the USA and became Kevin's best friend forever.
I see....
and the other end, it's been very quiet on the palladium forum lately...
I added their own Email as a note/memo reminding them that they let us know they will offer refunds if they couldn't fulfill.
I also put this at the bottom under Terms and Conditions:
"You will receive an updated invoice every 30 days with an updated total. After 2 months, if you still haven’t paid, you will be reported to the credit agencies for non payment."
60 days is fair notice, BTW.
Credit Agencies note late payment starting at 30 days overdue
So I guess we know why they went from “We’ll never do an Open House again” to “Let’s have one in April!!!”. Let the begging and pleading sobs for cash to keep Good ‘Ol Kev from going bankrupt begin!
jaymz wrote: My only reaction to this since I told so many people 2.5 years ago this was going to happen?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Precious little anyone could do with that information other than wait for it to happen.
I find little humor in it: PB is not closing their doors.
I am sure as far as Kevin is concerned it is business as usual.
He didn't like Robotech anyway...
Forar wrote: And if they can come clean with legit numbers that show they've blown through most of the funds, AND that they didn't misappropriate anything, I could see some reasonable middle ground. "We cannot pay back pro-rated refunds, let alone full refunds, but we can distribute remaining resources along with profits from selling remaining wave one stock at a steep discount, and offer X% to backers who desire it."
Yes, yes, legal gloom and doom, nobody would take it, whatever. I'm talking to those who aren't frothing at the mouth here. If they said "we can return 50% of Pledge Manager wave 2 items" and my $426 dollars owed turned into $100, would I be happy? Not really, but it'd be closer to making good on what is owed than expecting me to pay $50-100+ in shipping, taxes, and duties, for stock I don't want and they just hope to avoid throwing out.
IF they proved that this was just a mess, that mistakes were made but they didn't try to walk off with half a million in leftover cash and whatnot, IF they were transparent enough to meet some reasonable middle ground, I could see there being the potential to have a 'pennies on the dollar, this is what we can do' situation unfold.
I don't think that will happen, I think that ship has sailed, and they seem unwilling to try such a compromise, but it's what comes to mind as an outcome that could have been reached in a more ideal world than the one we're living in.
Let's save the 'oh Forar, you don't really think that they would _____' caveats and hot takes. I'm expressing a hypothetical, and surely us literate and ostensibly intelligent gaming types can recognize it as such.
I want to confirm what I believe is missing from my pledge.
One thing, if people actually do start exchanging refunds for wave one boxes, do you think in the next PBWU they will be saying RTT is boiling over, we so busy trying to get the product out of the warehouse to our grateful backers......guess not
I don’t have access to the link to backer kit at the moment, but I did take a screenshot of what’s there for my records. I don’t know if PB can alter it at all, but I’m not taking a chance.
Not that I really expect I’ll see a refund of any sort, but just in case...
I'm out about $150. So not that much. As a non-US backer, I don't have that much recourse. I could take up their offer and get 8 boxes of Destroids, but I don't really need 8 more Warhammers.
I don't really need that $150, so the temptation is to just not take up their offer and see it to the end. It's not about the refund -- the likelihood that PB would cough up is minuscule. It's more about not letting their behaviour go away unrewarded.
I can accept that there can be mismanagement and as such the money can run out, but they continued to bait us along. Some would say that they were trying to find funding, but 3 years is a long time. On top of that, the issue of license expiry is something that's well known in advance. That they chose this timing to announce this, one month before the license require them to destroy stock, smacks of an attempt to stave off refunds and use the licensing expiry as an excuse.
I hadn't examine their accounting fully, but apparently there are some irregularities. I'm not sure whether I want to since it's almost certain to be fairly crap.
Their offer of stock-for-refund also smacks of idiocy. I can understand the asking price for the minis and decals (because they still have use), but the game is dead and asking full backer prices for rules, tokens and basic box is just bad business sense. In totality, it feels that PB/ KS just wants to close the chapter and didn't even bother to think through the situation.
PB has treated the backers poorly; I don't really see why I should not see it to the bitter end.
That's another VERY good point Lynx - PB knew they weren't going to deliver wave 2 a long time ago, and they knew the license was going to expire on (x) as well, and waited until the last minute in what appears to be a cynical attempt to get backers to accept wave 1 stuff in lieu of wave 2 stuff at frankly ridiculous conversion prices.
Especially as all of that stuff is about to get sold off at way, way lower prices than that...
My advice would be to request the cash refund that PB knows they now have to provide.
so I don't lose what I wrote earlier on the KS page...
Kevin,
You knew that the license would be expiring, it is actually written into the contract you signed in the first place, so waiting up to a month before the end of the license is a good way not to have to deal with the project anymore... that update would have been done a long time ago...
Scott Gibbons had nothing to do with it, he probably knew as well the project was doomed when he signed up for the job in late May 2017. He was bound to fail and he most likely quitted in December when he learned the extend of the failure…as why he didn't answer any emails, Facebook posts, Kickstarter comments himself if he's still working for PB?
Plastics and manufacturing
The reason why you signed up a partnership with ND is because of their knowledge of the whole process. It's not speculation, you spent 3 whole paragraphs above saying just that.
Do you really believe that the backers are going to buy the idea that ND didn't make sure that the STL files were compatible with the tooling process? As you say they run "8 or 9 successful Kickstarters. Plus, they had a hit game of their own, Super Dungeon Explore, as well as having been involved with the creation of other games."
The reason the previous STL files were not compatible seems to be more like the tooling process was changed for a cheaper one… and I'm not sure it was ND decision to do so as per Ninja John recent comment on the fact they delivered you a game that was 100% ready to go….
Dimensional Weight has been in practice since 2007….
A good business approach would have been to take that into consideration when you designed the box set….
You spent 600000$ just for manufacturing Wave 1 items while ND handed you a 600-900k$ completed project?
For 12 models…. I'm very skeptical of that.... you know what I can do 600K, I can fully run a biotech lab for a full year with 3 employees paid more than your project manager. I can make 10% minimum interest just by doing nothing. I can probably buy back PB as well...and you did 12 models....
The effort to make Wave Two
Here's where it's getting muddy…you misappropriated the funds by adding production from the KS funds for wholesale and retail before completing the promised rewards.
You decided that the game could make another million or two with 47k promotion budget….
You knew that by splitting the delivery into 2 waves you were multiplying the delivery cost by 2, the initial manufacturing cost by 2. You already did not have the money at that time and you were expecting to make enough money to cover the production of wave 2?
Did you really look at the miniature game industry seriously or not?
if you had decided not to over-produced starter boxes, changed the manufacturing method and not being an incompetent at business who hires Fan-Friends for jobs that do not have the required qualifications, most likely everything would have been produced by the end of 2015…
What we can offer - Wave One Rewards for Wave Two
Your company doesn't even have 120k$ in cash flow right now… it explains why most of your employees on LinkedIn have a second job listed as current job, it explains why your discounting everything on DriveThru.... you have to stock pile for lawyers' fees.
And now, you want us to help you clear your inventory before you have to give back the keys so you don't have to pay the movers and for the destruction of the unlicensed products. You know Harmony Gold won't hesitate one second to sue you if you sell one Robotech® items past the delay, that's what they have been doing since the 1980's…
If only you had bought a big house, an Aston Martin DB 9 in British Racing Green, build a helipad so you can go to work flying high....if only that, I might have enjoyed the update....
The project is not a failure, you are…
"My thanks and humble appreciation to everyone who supported Robotech® RPG Tactics."
yeah, right, go tell that to Carmen Bellaire and his family….
Alpharius wrote: That's another VERY good point Lynx - PB knew they weren't going to deliver wave 2 a long time ago, and they knew the license was going to expire on (x) as well, and waited until the last minute in what appears to be a cynical attempt to get backers to accept wave 1 stuff in lieu of wave 2 stuff at frankly ridiculous conversion prices.
Especially as all of that stuff is about to get sold off at way, way lower prices than that...
My advice would be to request the cash refund that PB knows they now have to provide.
And to get your refund request in ASAP.
Here are your messages.
You have 30 minutes to move your Wave 1 product.
You have 10 minutes.
Your Wave 1 product has been impounded.
Your Wave 1 product has been crushed into a cube.
You have 30 minutes to move your cube.
*phone rings*
Hello, backers community?
Is it about my cube?
Sorry, that Simpsons scene is the recurring thought when I see this being discussed.
Seems like I had $95 worth of extras I'll never see - peanuts compared to some, I realize, but pretty goddamn annoying all the same. Plus, of course, the "$31.76" worth of remaining miniatures from the Battlecry pledge.
Which, as everyone has noted, is an odd number for them to come to. I mean, a "Super Valkyrie Wing" was $35 by itself, and the equivalent was included in Battle Cry, along with a lot else. But clearly sketchy math has been a hallmark of this from the beginning.
I wish everyone luck with their refund requests, but I just want to see an end to this, and a bird in the hand...I'm going to request the convention exclusive models ($22 each! Hah!) and some Destroids. We'll see what happens.
Alpharius wrote: That's another VERY good point Lynx - PB knew they weren't going to deliver wave 2 a long time ago, and they knew the license was going to expire on (x) as well, and waited until the last minute in what appears to be a cynical attempt to get backers to accept wave 1 stuff in lieu of wave 2 stuff at frankly ridiculous conversion prices.
Especially as all of that stuff is about to get sold off at way, way lower prices than that...
My advice would be to request the cash refund that PB knows they now have to provide.
And to get your refund request in ASAP.
Here are your messages.
You have 30 minutes to move your Wave 1 product.
You have 10 minutes.
Your Wave 1 product has been impounded.
Your Wave 1 product has been crushed into a cube.
You have 30 minutes to move your cube.
*phone rings*
Hello, backers community?
Is it about my cube?
Sorry, that Simpsons scene is the recurring thought when I see this being discussed.
I actually had this happen to me once. My brother borrowed my car to get back to Chicago and... I'm not really sure, but he apparently forgot about it since he doesn't normally drive. Anyway, I eventually got those letters and that was.... fun....
Alpharius wrote: That Dilbert mashup from a few posts back was perfect...
Yup, and there were a few others that popped up that were quite true and humorous (in that dark, sad sort of way) over the years before I recall you modadopting the Robotech thread. I saved links to a few of them.
Alpharius wrote: That Dilbert mashup from a few posts back was perfect...
Yup, and there were a few others that popped up that were quite true and humorous (in that dark, sad sort of way) over the years before I recall you modadopting the Robotech thread.
You take that back right now! He's a genre redefining visionary with 40 years of business acumen under his belt! You'll never get the chance to clean his toilet for free and/or manage his business with that attitude!
You take that back right now! He's a genre redefining visionary with 40 years of business acumen under his belt! You'll never get the chance to clean his toilet for free and/or manage his business with that attitude!
I thought you had to pay to clean the toilets.... like 55$
You take that back right now! He's a genre redefining visionary with 40 years of business acumen under his belt! You'll never get the chance to clean his toilet for free and/or manage his business with that attitude!
I thought you had to pay to clean the toilets.... like 55$
I stand corrected. Indeed, you pay for the privilege.
I can only think of one thing to say about Kevin Siembieda right now.
What a piece of work is Kevin Siembieda, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god,
Thank you Shakespeare, by way of Captain Picard, for giving me a way to express that. There really are no other words.
I imagine they will. Presumably they won't have any RRT there, but it won't stop them from trying to sell RPG books regardless.
I mean, the booth is most likely paid for. They could skip it, and with the ire they seem to have generated I wouldn't rule it out entirely, but it'd also make sense to me for them to just ship the B-Team off with some pallets of books to kill a day or two and hope for some sales.
As has been noted in a few places, they get excited about selling a hundred decks of playing cards. The bar for them to consider a sales opportunity worthwhile is pretty low.
I think they'll skip it. They no longer have any reason to pretend to be interested in going. They only went initially because they were shamed into it that first year for not supporting their biggest ever product. They may have even included conventions as "advertising" in their price breakdown even though they didn't bother trying to make a good impression by just painting their minis and making sure they weren't broken let alone actually coming out with new product or showing interest in demoing/supporting it. The fee for the con was taken from our money and is a sunk cost. Paying a few employees to go there and the subsequent meals/accomodation will now be coming out of their pockets if they were to go so I doubt it'll happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if them screwing over 5,000 paid customers simultaneously after misleading them for years as to the true financial state of the project will warrant a mention in this week's murmur....
I want them to be at adepticon.
Seriously. Let them be out in the open dealing with even a dozen or so angry backers. Heck let them show up and get booted out.
Them not going just means less in person scrutiny.
Stormonu wrote: So, a little math based on the pie chart....
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)
My question on the money problem is as follows:
1. Licensing? RRT is a RPG product, didn't Palladium already have a license for RPG products?
2. There are roughly 10 models in Wave 1 (3 for Valks and modes, 4 Destroids, 1 Glaug, and count the Regults as 2 models). So... per model, 36k for design, 60k for manufacturing. In the experience of people here, is this reasonable? (Yes, we still have to account for game and box design etc. but I don't think that would be the primary cost.)
This means well.
I look at it as PB is wasting their money going to these events.
Their booths are typically abandoned (even by staff) and the only thing that keeps the lights on is volunteers promoting things like RRT.
Now they do not even have that.
They deserve attention by the law, failing that: be ignored.
dreamakuma wrote: I want them to be at adepticon. Seriously. Let them be out in the open dealing with even a dozen or so angry backers. Heck let them show up and get booted out. Them not going just means less in person scrutiny.
I'm conflicted on this.
On one hand, yeah, letting them show up and have to handle some backer/community ire in person might seem cathartic, but the reality is that Kevin and Wayne (if they even show up) will just redirect to a peon. Looks like Wayne and Chuck handled Adepticon last year, I highly doubt Kevin has the courage to show up while this tire fire is at new levels of intensity.
On the other hand, I think there is some value in indicating to people who act poorly in a community that this behaviour is unacceptable, and accordingly that they are unwelcome. If their name is so toxic that they can't even pay people to let them into a convention officially, that'd have some merit as well.
I'm kind of leaning towards the latter, personally. "Here is your grand (or whatever), you have mismanaged the money and hopes of thousands of people, and as such are not welcome here as a gaming community member in good standing. Kindly feth off." (if the deposit or booth fees were non-refundable, even better, but I don't actually know, so let's not get into the weeds on a throwaway line).
Look, I was all about calling them out on some gak a few years ago, and in the middle of a con and with some shenanigans that cut our stay short, I didn't get around to it. And as I've admitted in the past, like most people, I'm not exactly the most confrontational of people. I think the idea of a mob of backers and gamers hounding them with torches and pitchforks is a nice mental image, but I'm uncertain that any, let alone many, people will want to jeopardize their Adepticon experience (as in, being asked to leave by the convention staff or security) for making a scene.
Adepticon (and especially Gencon) telling them to take a hike would have a very substantial impact, and nobody needs to single themselves out to get the message heard.
It just occurred to me that this one might actually sting.
Adepticon 2018 runs from March 22nd to March 25.
They have to abandon remaining product on March 31st.
It would not at all surprise me if they had RRT there for fire sale prices (like 1/2 - 3/4 off or more) just to try to make something out of it at one of their last opportunities to do so.
Being denied that opportunity might hurt more than anything most backers can do about their poor behaviour.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, there's better ways to expend energy in regards to this failed Kickstarter and now forcing PB to honor their remaining obligations.
It wouldn't 'hurt' PB at all to not be at Adepticon - and in many ways, it would be to their advantage to not show up.
I agree with Forar, it's their last "public" way to make a grab at *any* money they can get at a Con for RRT stuff.
Also, 1-2 click isn't that much effort.
Although I'm not a Doctor and not qualified to make a judgement call on a person's fitness level vs. effort.
I guess in part it depends on the attendees. Without context, seeing '75% off, must go', I could imagine people snagging things for Battletech or kitbashing or whatever, but I've never been to Adepticon, and I don't think its attendee count is much more than a couple thousand. Given that the event ends literally days before it's supposed to go in the garbage, as long as they made back travel and booth costs, plus a little on the top, I could see it being potentially worthwhile. Whether or not that pans out would remain to be seen, of course.
Denying them the opportunity holds appeal, whether they'd move 5 units or 500. As a statement from the larger gaming community that this behaviour is unacceptable.
Edit2: that said, it would also feed their persecution complex, but that's not something we can cater to. Not letting them skate after half a decade of flagrant BS is the larger point. Whatever happens will be played to their base regardless.
I think if they did a 75% off sale, they'd clear a lot just because it's cheap as chips and people will buy it just because it's dirt cheap. Another slap in the face of backers who are being charged full retail in the trade. Would show Kevin's fluctuating value system and how his last stand is try and make any money he can. Peoples' principles diminish when presented with what they perceive as an awesome deal. We're charging backers FULL PRICE, but you Adepticon attendees can get it for 75% off and we'll throw in a bunch of Robotech RPG rulebooks before we have to tear the covers off!
Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.
warboss wrote: Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.
That's the date backers have to get their requests in by, not necessarily the date they have to stop selling Robotech. Presuming it expires at the end of March, that date would give them a couple days to make sure they hold back enough stock to fulfill the requests of the backers who take an exchange rather than demanding a refund and then take as much as they can cram into a vehicle to Adepticon.
However, that would show an ability to think ahead and plan, and those haven't been hallmarks of PB's behavior to date.
warboss wrote: Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.
The March 20th cutoff is for Backers to get wave 1 stuff as compensation.
The same update specifies that they lose the license at the end of the month.
Which makes even more sense; give the backers a cutoff a few days before they head off to the convention, and they know that everything they bring *must go*. No need to hold back some, price it to sell and let people take it off their hands for a fraction of the sticker price, which is infinitely more valuable than paying to dispose of it all.
Obviously they're not going to sell thousands of cores there or something, but again, they get excited about moving 100 decks of playing cards. Surely a couple grand in cores and expansions would be worthwhile from that perspective.
Oh yeah, Palladium would totally be happy because it beats destroying the stuff. Make money off backers while putting the screws to them, make money off product rather than destroying it even at fire sale prices, and not have to pay a disposal fee. It's a win-win for the Siembieda and gives him money to get ready for the Crisis or Treacle part Doo: When Backers Attack Poor Kevin Unfairly! and fund his lawyer to try to keep those account records locked up tightly.
Kind of sad that backers own money will be used against them by Kevin for legal defense but I guess if discovery finds he's doing that we can add it to the damages as well.
warboss wrote: Isn't Adepticon *AFTER* their cutoff for selling Robotech related items of March 20th? Unless Wayne brings his hundreds to thousands of "personal" copies to sell, I don't see how they could do so assuming they treat their contractual obligations with Harmony Gold with a modicum of respect unlike the 5,000+ kickstarter contracts they just reneged on.
That's the date backers have to get their requests in by, not necessarily the date they have to stop selling Robotech. Presuming it expires at the end of March, that date would give them a couple days to make sure they hold back enough stock to fulfill the requests of the backers who take an exchange rather than demanding a refund and then take as much as they can cram into a vehicle to Adepticon.
Do we have recent confirmation that PB understands they have to do this - and that they said earlier that they will in fact do this - now that campaign has 'failed'?
Because to date I think that they think this 'Wave 1 for Wave 2' deal is all they have to do, and all they think they will be doing.
Stormonu wrote: So, a little math based on the pie chart....
$601,711.39 for Manufacturing (including Wave 1 product)
$364,193.74 for Design (and ND's cut)
$158,345.10 for Licensing (only 10%? Boy, HG is cheap...do they know they only got 10%?)
My question on the money problem is as follows:
1. Licensing? RRT is a RPG product, didn't Palladium already have a license for RPG products?
2. There are roughly 10 models in Wave 1 (3 for Valks and modes, 4 Destroids, 1 Glaug, and count the Regults as 2 models). So... per model, 36k for design, 60k for manufacturing. In the experience of people here, is this reasonable? (Yes, we still have to account for game and box design etc. but I don't think that would be the primary cost.)
This got buried, but does anyone has an answer?
Winterdyne covered the first question. It would have been a royalties issue, due to the license, hence it was a "Licensing cost". And 10% appears to be a not particularly exceptional (for either party) rate.
For the second question, while design issue is about right, it's the Manufacturing you're interpreting wrong (IMO). And boy howdy, do the numbers look bad for PB. It's not per model that you should be dividing by. It's the number of Kickstarter related boxes. I did the numbers elsewhere (PB Forums, I think), but I figured the section of Import Fees counteracts any money spent on the Battlefoam, for simplicity's sake in the numbers. Also, most estimates had 6-7K boxes needed for Kickstarter fulfillment.
So PB are claiming that they spent ~$600K to produce ~6000 Kickstarter boxes. Or, $100 per box. That's what they're claiming each BattleCry cost to manufacture and import. They also are claiming, as you point out, $360K in development. Across 6000 Battlecries, that's another $60 per box. So PB are claiming all up, to develop and manufacture what they did, for Kickstarter backers, cost them $160 each (~$140 per box if there were 7,000 boxes needed). Fssshhhhyeaaahh. If that's not utter bs, I don't know what is.
Now, if PB want to claim that those costs covered the entire ~17,000 boxes we know PB ordered, I'd be more than happy to accept that admission of misappropriation. You can spend the money on development, and engineering, but not on retail manufacture or importation. So, I don't see them doing that. Meaning that PB are asking us to believe that before residential shipping, to get completed what they did, cost LITERALLY more than what they recieved (per box) from backers. Therefore, at $1.44M funding, they were actually ~$600K in the hole, just to satisfy the Kickstarter demands.
DreamPod 9 were able to get at least 5 equivalent molds done (about 6"x8" of usable space, not sure how that stacks up against RRT sprues), for ~10% of the funding, that PB spent to manufacture and produce 10 molds, shows that the numbers given are fraudulent, either through PB claiming it, or the manufacturers ripping PB off in a massive way (or both!). While that campaign was not problem-free, it is an indicator of what can be done, and without PB's benefit of significant scale. But to use the math you started with, PB spent $60K on the Manufacturing per sprue. DP9 spent about $30K, including development costs. Sure, PB had to press more sprues, but economy of scale, and the cheapness of that part of the process are negligible.
So, the numbers, as claimed, simply don't add up. I'd want to see a much more detailed accounting regarding expenditures, before believing that POS piechart, from an inveterate liar.
Alpharius wrote: How much do you think they'll be able to bring and than to actually sell?
Sure, we're a niche hobby, but who isn't going to know all about this there, and just how sympathetic will they be to PB?
And after all that, who really wants more/a lot/any of this game now?
If they were smart, at the end of the con they'd basically cut the prices of them to about $10. If it's still they're going to have to destroy (totes. <wink> t hem, may as well sell them for $1 a box.
This is their chance to at least get gas money out of this fiasco.
So, the numbers, as claimed, simply don't add up. I'd want to see a much more detailed accounting regarding expenditures, before believing that POS piechart, from an inveterate liar.
Yeah, I think you're right there - PB is trying to 'hide' the extra Wave 1 stock that they bought (because someone convinced them it would be stupid to not take advantage of the cheap, cheap cost to get more 'now') inside of that silly pie chart they have put out there...
For the second question, while design issue is about right, it's the Manufacturing you're interpreting wrong (IMO). And boy howdy, do the numbers look bad for PB. It's not per model that you should be dividing by. It's the number of Kickstarter related boxes. I did the numbers elsewhere (PB Forums, I think), but I figured the section of Import Fees counteracts any money spent on the Battlefoam, for simplicity's sake in the numbers. Also, most estimates had 6-7K boxes needed for Kickstarter fulfillment.
So PB are claiming that they spent ~$600K to produce ~6000 Kickstarter boxes. Or, $100 per box. That's what they're claiming each BattleCry cost to manufacture and import. They also are claiming, as you point out, $360K in development. Across 6000 Battlecries, that's another $60 per box. So PB are claiming all up, to develop and manufacture what they did, for Kickstarter backers, cost them $160 each (~$140 per box if there were 7,000 boxes needed). Fssshhhhyeaaahh. If that's not utter bs, I don't know what is.
Hmm that's a perspective I didn't see. What I was thinking of is that:
1. They had to design the 3D models etc (which even if ND did most of the work, they still had to pay for them). 2. They had to cut steel for the molds.
Those are the up front costs. After that, how many sprues they want to blow through those molds are negligible; similarly packing into boxes is also a matter of labour cost. The number of boxes they produced isn't quite part of the equation I was thinking of.
If you are following my line of thought, then, for about 10 models, they spent (for each) $36k for each 3D design and maybe consultancy about steel cutting, which in my mind is a bit high... but I don't work in the industry, so I'm not sure the going rate. BTW, the original pie chart had the legend as "Artwork, 3D Sculpting, 3D Prints, Rules, ND Participation". $36K for Spartangate?
The manufacturing portion (labelled "3D Correction, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, BF bags" ) is $60k per model, normalized. My limited understanding that a high-end steel mold can cost upwards to $50k to cut, so while PB's molds aren't cutting edge, $60k per model for everything doesn't actually feel too unreasonable. Yes, if PB did order excess for retail, that may be an issue, but with each sprue a negligible cost after the mold is cut and only labour as the primary cost, those extra boxes might not actually be the killer.
BTW, this is their chart:
For Design to be >50% of Manufacturing strikes me as somewhat disproportionate. Conventional wisdom is that the steel mold cutting is typically the most expensive part of plastic manufacturing, so this looks way off to me.. but again, I'm not in that industry.
DreamPod 9 were able to get at least 5 equivalent molds done (about 6"x8" of usable space, not sure how that stacks up against RRT sprues), for ~10% of the funding, that PB spent to manufacture and produce 10 molds, shows that the numbers given are fraudulent, either through PB claiming it, or the manufacturers ripping PB off in a massive way (or both!). While that campaign was not problem-free, it is an indicator of what can be done, and without PB's benefit of significant scale. But to use the math you started with, PB spent $60K on the Manufacturing per sprue. DP9 spent about $30K, including development costs. Sure, PB had to press more sprues, but economy of scale, and the cheapness of that part of the process are negligible.
I am involved in that KS and yes, that was way more transparent about stuff. In terms of end product, each of DP9's sprue is about half the size of PB's standard sprue, but DP9 had a lot more; a total of about 17 models, so about 8 of PB's sprues. These are done in 5 mold blocks, as what you said. Quality wise, the detailing is better than PB's in some area, but there are problems with them that are more design-related than casting technology.
And yes, at 10% of the RRT funding. Though I suspect DP9 didn't put design costs in there, opting to absorb that cost as "part of doing business". So the 10% of PB funding is strictly for the equivalent of Manufacturing above -- actually, now that I checked, their wording is that the DP9KS is "to fund molds for plastic miniatures". If all $150k of that KS funding went into Manufacturing, and bearing in mind DP9 made the choice to ship the molds back to the US to produce, then really, PBought to be ashamed of the screwball they managed.
When you stop to think about it, Design cost for RRT is likely to be known up front -- as contractors, ND probably already have locked in a price with PB on their participation rates. At least that part should be well understood. If so, where the heck is the bloat from design coming from?
My suspicions -- and only suspicions! -- is that the Design bloat came about as part of PB involvement, potentially in the rumoured change of suppliers and as a result the need to do file conversions... and someone bilked PB good and proper on that one. Then, the manufacturing portion they probably paid a tax for that too. On top of that, they probably did order too much, and as a result got hit with shipping extras, and just kept piling costs. A lot of it is from inexperience in the genre, and if that's the case, then we go back to asking why ND exited at such an odd timing.
EDIT: Now that I get to stare at the chart more, 15% for shipping both from China and then turn around back internationally, doesn't actually look too terrible. Shipping from China to US is likely one container load, which isn't too expensive for the amount (I recall the boat got hit by the LA port strikes...), and if you work the maths, $221k for Shipping spread over 5.5k people worked out to be $40 per head.
For a starter box that size, it doesn't look too terrible as international rates go.. especially since we would need to deduct some for the shipping to US first. I can't remember how the shipping went on this one, whether it was couriered or with tracking, but I again suspect they didn't shop around for good rates for massed shipping.
If you wish to contribute to helping organise a class action suit to see Palladium Books held to account for this sorry mess, go join this Facebook Group (or wait for further details):
Please follow the instructions below when joining:
You have applied to join the group "RRT backers planning lawsuit against PB for failure to deliver". Please check if your application is still pending or you have been declined entry. If you've been declined do not worry. It is probably because you haven't answered the questions in your application tab. We welcome all those backers who wish to see an end to this sham in a way that is satisfactory to us the backers. If you're having trouble with uploading a screenshot of your backer page of the RRT kickstarter project then here's a little help...
1st. Go to your RRT kickstarter pledge page by clicking on the "backed projects" tab on your profile.
2nd. Click on the RRT project that you will see on the list of your backed projects.
3rd. Save a screenshot of that page.
4th Upload said screenshot to a picture sharing site like dropbox, google drive,photobucket etc.
5th. Re-apply and copy and paste the link of the uploaded screenshot as your answer to the question "Are you a backer"
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, I think you're right there - PB is trying to 'hide' the extra Wave 1 stock that they bought (because someone convinced them it would be stupid to not take advantage of the cheap, cheap cost to get more 'now') inside of that silly pie chart they have put out there...
Nothing wrong with piggybacking retail on Wave 1 - provided the retail stock is paid out of non-KS funds...
The thing missing from that "pie chart" is the amount of money they took in Post-KS in the Backerkit/Pledge Manager.
Sure... the reason why I didn't bother to put that in is that they don't need the additional help to look incompetent. It looks bad enough as it is.
So far people has generally agreed the licensing cost looks reasonable, the shipping isn't unexpected, the KS and Pledge manager costs are known ahead of time... which means the things that contributed most are manufacturing and design, both of which are well within their control.
... huh. I just realised he gave a breakdown of costs in the first update.I need to comb through that.
So, the numbers, as claimed, simply don't add up. I'd want to see a much more detailed accounting regarding expenditures, before believing that POS piechart, from an inveterate liar.
Yeah, I think you're right there - PB is trying to 'hide' the extra Wave 1 stock that they bought (because someone convinced them it would be stupid to not take advantage of the cheap, cheap cost to get more 'now') inside of that silly pie chart they have put out there...
That's what I suspect. There's an easy way for PB to prove they didn't commit fraud on a massive level as suspected.
From KSU 186.
"If there were ever any type of investigation, Palladium has accurate records, receipts, correspondences and documentation for every expense and transaction we’ve made regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™."
He has the receipts. Let people see exactly when, and on what, the money was spent. And the when is almost as important as the what. Because backers deserve to know not just how PB failed dismally, but at what point they did so, while denying people refunds.
Because on a side note, my initial claim in early 2014 was when they still appear to have had money. That was denied, but the following statement was technically true.
"As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter."
But according to Kevin, all money was spent on Wave 1. So, by the start of 2015, they were doing the equivalent of operating while insolvent (yes, yes, I know it's not the same legally, but ethically it is), yet still promising refunds if people were patient, and the Kickstarter failed to deliver.
Even with my initial claim, they knew they had a financial obligation to me (and several other backers that wanted to opt out before Wave 1 saw manufacture), and went ahead and claim to have spent every penny in the coffers, knowing that they were putting themselves in a position that not only wiped out all cash reserves, but that they would need an additional 500-600K to get out of the hole they dug.
No refunds until we can no longer fulfill the terms of the Kickstarter. Ooops, we spent all that money, NOW we can no longer fulfill the terms of the Kickstarter.
As I said earlier here (I think), it's bloody convenient that the amount spent happens to have been pretty much the amount raised, and we find out about that fact just as the license expires, the literal instance that they're unable to complete the project.
According to PB, this is their timeline related to funding, from the start of the campaign, to now.
Yeah.... That doesn't look kosher to me. But that's what PB are claiming happened.
The one he wants you to send money to for shipping.
Thank ya. Sent an invoice with the following note:
"Reward Exchange:
I would like my remaining unfulfilled pledge to be refunded.
I calculate this to be:
Blitzkrieg Wave Two components: $23.78
VEF-1/VF-1D Valkyrie Pack: $30.00
SDF-1: $20.00
I expect the refund to be processed post-haste and to receive $73.78 to my account by paying this invoice in full.
I request the refund per the Kickstarter TOU:
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
As an established company with a variety of successful product lines I expect this refund of the remaining pledge as per the terms your company agreed to when launching and using the Kickstarter platform.
The thing missing from that "pie chart" is the amount of money they took in Post-KS in the Backerkit/Pledge Manager.
Sure... the reason why I didn't bother to put that in is that they don't need the additional help to look incompetent. It looks bad enough as it is.
So far people has generally agreed the licensing cost looks reasonable, the shipping isn't unexpected, the KS and Pledge manager costs are known ahead of time... which means the things that contributed most are manufacturing and design, both of which are well within their control.
... huh. I just realised he gave a breakdown of costs in the first update.I need to comb through that.
I believe the claims were that the additional funds from the Pledge Manager were about equivalent to the amount of money taken by Kickstarter, so about $110K, give or take. Forar was paying attention to that at some point. Mebee he'll chime in.
It definitely wasn't mentioned as being fractionally significant. I think they'd have crowed about it if it'd put them over $2M total. I know I personally added a marginal amount, as I'd done the math before hand, and had factored in all the addons. I know some people waited, but we have no idea how many.
The one he wants you to send money to for shipping.
Thank ya. Sent an invoice with the following note:
"Reward Exchange:
I would like my remaining unfulfilled pledge to be refunded.
I calculate this to be:
Blitzkrieg Wave Two components: $23.78
VEF-1/VF-1D Valkyrie Pack: $30.00
SDF-1: $20.00
I expect the refund to be processed post-haste and to receive $73.78 to my account by paying this invoice in full.
I request the refund per the Kickstarter TOU:
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
As an established company with a variety of successful product lines I expect this refund of the remaining pledge as per the terms your company agreed to when launching and using the Kickstarter platform.
Thank you,
Douglas Craig"
That's good, but you also need to:
* state that you are requesting a refund because PB has stated they will not fulfill the outstanding obligation owed to you, per the binding contract that was formed when you paid money to accept their offer on Kickstarter;
* state your deadline (5 Business Days = March 8th, 2018), and
* state consequences ("any and all remedies available at law").
It would be nice if the legal team could draft a demand letter
A guy in the Facebook group said he got in touch with Customer Service at his CC company and they gave him back the funds spent, temporarily, while they investigate.
I don't think what people, like Kevin, don't realize is...giant companies like Discover, Visa, MC, Paypal, etc...
The don't give a gak about him or his company. They want to keep customers happy. They will GLADLY give you back your money and then charge Palladium.
I posted this somewhere before, but I disputed a purchase through Paypal once because the items sent were broken. Turned out the guy closed his bank account and Paypal STILL back charged the guy's bank and then the bank went after him in collections.
Visa (or others) don't give a gak about what Kevin says or tried to tell them. They got chunks of guys like him in their stool.
Eh, I tried about a year ago and they told me they had a couple year limit. Basically, could have been chased if we'd gone after them as soon as it was clear everything was going to gak, but not four years on.
For the second question, while design issue is about right, it's the Manufacturing you're interpreting wrong (IMO). And boy howdy, do the numbers look bad for PB. It's not per model that you should be dividing by. It's the number of Kickstarter related boxes. I did the numbers elsewhere (PB Forums, I think), but I figured the section of Import Fees counteracts any money spent on the Battlefoam, for simplicity's sake in the numbers. Also, most estimates had 6-7K boxes needed for Kickstarter fulfillment.
So PB are claiming that they spent ~$600K to produce ~6000 Kickstarter boxes. Or, $100 per box. That's what they're claiming each BattleCry cost to manufacture and import. They also are claiming, as you point out, $360K in development. Across 6000 Battlecries, that's another $60 per box. So PB are claiming all up, to develop and manufacture what they did, for Kickstarter backers, cost them $160 each (~$140 per box if there were 7,000 boxes needed). Fssshhhhyeaaahh. If that's not utter bs, I don't know what is.
Hmm that's a perspective I didn't see. What I was thinking of is that:
1. They had to design the 3D models etc (which even if ND did most of the work, they still had to pay for them).
2. They had to cut steel for the molds.
Those are the up front costs. After that, how many sprues they want to blow through those molds are negligible; similarly packing into boxes is also a matter of labour cost. The number of boxes they produced isn't quite part of the equation I was thinking of...
Did Palladium have to pay for the 3D models twice? Wasn't there a post here a few months ago that showed the owner of Ninja Division being upset about what was happening with RTT because they (ND) had everything set up and good-to-go before PB kicked them to the curb for some reason?
The thing missing from that "pie chart" is the amount of money they took in Post-KS in the Backerkit/Pledge Manager.
They note that it cost them 2% to PAY Backerkit, but not how much on top of the 1.5m they got from it.
Personally, my Backerkit Add-ons where 50% of my total $1000 spent.
They could EASILY be missing/not showing another 250k-500k at LEAST in post-KS Add-ons.
Funny thing, because Palladium almost never uses their account to comment, finding this applicable quote is always really easy;
The statement made by a backer:
“This endeavor already made them $1.44 Million Dollars; plus up to another 100% in backerkit bonuses. So with potentially anywhere from $2 Million to $3 Million already in their pockets - they don't necessarily have to rush to give a product that's already been paid for.”
Palladium's response:
I just caught this last night, and feel the need to respond and clear something up. We are NOT sitting on a giant pile of money. After Amazon/Kickstarter fees (8-10%) and the usual 1-2% of backers whose payments didn't go through, the total wasn't much more than $1.3 mil. Then HG and ND get their cuts, and what's left over has to pay not only for manufacturing, but the cost of shipping the goods to all of you fine people (a LOT of whom are overseas). The BackerKit added to that, for sure, but a successful pledge manager is generally expected to add about 10% on top of the Kickstarter total. We did pretty close to that (slightly over). Nowhere near 100% (I wish)! The bottom line is, we're not going to make much, if any, profit from this project until the game is selling in retail. And most of THAT is going to be put back into development and manufacture of future expansions. --Wayne
So, that 1.45m dropped to about 1.3, but then the PM added about 10% back on top, meaning they basically broke even there.
Boy, I have a busy day and weekend ahead of me, but I bet there's some more tidbits to pick up over the years in comments, updates, murmurs, etc. They rarely give hard info, but we know things like the molds cost twice as much as they expected (from the June 2015 Big History Of Everything updates), bits like that. I wonder how all those puzzle pieces go together, because I suspect some cracks would appear fairly easily/quickly.
Edit: Note: they could be lying. I'm not speaking to the veracity of the claim, simply noting it as a starting point. When asked how much the PM brought in, they said about 10%. Whether that's 10% more of the original 1.45m, or 10% of the 1.3m that was left over seems small enough to ignore, it was another 100k+ either way, and thus substantial enough to be accounted for transparently. Especially if they're claiming to have spent all funds allocated for shipping, design and manufacturing of wave 2, etc on just wave one. Triply so since as of 2 months ago we were still going through that 'look at this sdf-1 base render!' bullgak. They *KNEW* they were fethed at that time, and kept lying anyways.
Speaking of Credit Cards and Pledge Manager, if anyone CC'd their PM payment, I'd strongly suggest to call the CC company and push for a chargeback.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Merijeek wrote: Eh, I tried about a year ago and they told me they had a couple year limit. Basically, could have been chased if we'd gone after them as soon as it was clear everything was going to gak, but not four years on.
Try again.
Reference PB's statement that they will not deliver.
Merijeek wrote: Eh, I tried about a year ago and they told me they had a couple year limit. Basically, could have been chased if we'd gone after them as soon as it was clear everything was going to gak, but not four years on.
And that's why the "We're telling you now, what we claim to have known 3 years ago, while pushing the narrative that everything is fine, how dare you question us?" narrative by Kevin shows him to be a complete amoral shitbag.
Regardless of the legal complexities, Kevin's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's just as bad as his prior reputation suggested. Sadly, there'll still be some people that'll support him regardless.
For the second question, while design issue is about right, it's the Manufacturing you're interpreting wrong (IMO). And boy howdy, do the numbers look bad for PB. It's not per model that you should be dividing by. It's the number of Kickstarter related boxes. I did the numbers elsewhere (PB Forums, I think), but I figured the section of Import Fees counteracts any money spent on the Battlefoam, for simplicity's sake in the numbers. Also, most estimates had 6-7K boxes needed for Kickstarter fulfillment.
So PB are claiming that they spent ~$600K to produce ~6000 Kickstarter boxes. Or, $100 per box. That's what they're claiming each BattleCry cost to manufacture and import. They also are claiming, as you point out, $360K in development. Across 6000 Battlecries, that's another $60 per box. So PB are claiming all up, to develop and manufacture what they did, for Kickstarter backers, cost them $160 each (~$140 per box if there were 7,000 boxes needed). Fssshhhhyeaaahh. If that's not utter bs, I don't know what is.
Hmm that's a perspective I didn't see. What I was thinking of is that:
1. They had to design the 3D models etc (which even if ND did most of the work, they still had to pay for them).
2. They had to cut steel for the molds.
Those are the up front costs. After that, how many sprues they want to blow through those molds are negligible; similarly packing into boxes is also a matter of labour cost. The number of boxes they produced isn't quite part of the equation I was thinking of...
Did Palladium have to pay for the 3D models twice? Wasn't there a post here a few months ago that showed the owner of Ninja Division being upset about what was happening with RTT because they (ND) had everything set up and good-to-go before PB kicked them to the curb for some reason?
We'll find out the truth when the class action rolls into play. Almost certain that HG, ND, KS and PB will have certain things subpoena'd during discovery, unless it's viewed as very cut and dry that the buck stops with PB as the project creator (and the party we have our contract with).
I am on with Discover right now and they will dispute the charges and attempt chargebacks.
They need evidence, does anyone have a screenshot or know where it was that Palladium said they would give Refunds if they could not fulfill Wave 2?
UPDATE: Discover has reversed the charges, credited my account, and are going after Palladium, Backerkit, and Kickstarter, based on what I told them. I am to provide documentation and screenshots in sufficient quantities and information to prove that Palladium initially complied with the TOU had offered refunds and then reversed their position in violation of the KS TOU.
Additionally, the Backerkit charge for add-ons is the easiest one to determine, as the charge is for products that were never received.
The initial Kickstarter/Palladium charge would require them to determine that Palladium/Siembieda had stated that refunds would be offered in support of the KS TOU, and then stated the reversal of position in violation of KS TOU.
I am asking if Discover wants all Discover card users who were affected, to contact them. I have been escalated to some sort of really high up fraud dept. I'll post again when I find out
Let's go with shipping first, since that's actually in PB's favour. In his first update, he cited the following:
Dimensional Weight dramatically increased the anticipated shipping cost to backers. $131,843.74 for just Wave One. Another $9,016.80 for the boxes alone to ship your rewards in. And $76,401.20 to import Wave One from China into the USA.
That adds up to $217,261.74; 4k short but I'm not going to quibble over that, because seriously, there are more things ahead.
Like, how do you exactly spend $76K on shipping from China to US? Currently, a full 40" container from Shanghai to LA would cost $2K or so, more with insurance, and you still need to pay trucking to and from the port,and probably some additional fees, but just how many containers were PB shipping over to the US??!? How do you f**k that up?
Also, $132K for shipping for 5.5k backers work out to be $24 per head. I don't find that unreasonable for a starter box of that size.
Next, Design. $364,193.74 by chart, for Artwork, 3D sculpts, 3D prints, ND participation. In the update:
The 3D sculpts we had all worked so hard on, and that Palladium had paid $35,000 for, and looked gorgeous, had to be completely recreated – from scratch – by the manufacturer.
....
And that was in addition to the nearly $21,000 for the 3D file corrections and prototypes by the manufacturer.
For the maths dis-inclined, that adds up to $76K of design work in the update. Leaving $288,193.74 unaccounted for.
I don't think the artwork for what is there adds up to $288k. And FFS 3D prints are supposed to be cheap, that's why you use them for prototyping. I'll come back to this later.
Incidentally, $76K for about 10 models work out to be $7600 per model. To my unexperienced eye, doesn't look too unreasonable for a total redo. Of course, why that manufacturer was selected without confirming the ability for it to use the existing material is the pertinent question. So... How do you f**k that up?
Manufacturing, which is 3D corrections, Prototypes, Molds, Manufacturing, BF bags. $601,711.39
The high cost of tooling/molds – $75,000 for what would become just the Wave One rewards – was unexpected.
That's high for 10 models? Seriously?
BF bags were offered at $100, on the site appears to be $150. So let's call the cost to procure $50. Assume 1K bags, that's $50K.
.. look, no matter how I try to maths things, we are still short half a million here. How do you f**k that up?!?
All told I'm not seeing $700K of money over the span of about 3 years. Even if we say PB hideously overordered for retail and dipped into KS funds, that's not going to account for that much. The only two things I can think of that can soak that much money, is T&M by the manufacturer -- possible, but very likely to be someone taking advantage of PB -- or T&M by PB or ND, possibly HG.
Lastly, Kevin wrote:
The cost to produce Wave Two, estimated at $300,000-$400,000 for tooling and manufacturing, plus $65,000 to import to the USA, plus $120,000-$160,000 to ship rewards to the backers, was more than any potential investor was willing to risk.
Wave 2 has about 12 models, so more than Wave 1, yet he is estimating lower than Wave 1 cost. I seriously cannot line the numbers up. Also, $65K to import. How many containers was he thinking again?
Argh.
I actually think he has kept receipts and the specificity that he broke things down by looked accurate. The problem is, I can't help but feel there is some dodgy dipping into funds, and exploitation by suppliers. It just look like a complete screwup.
They shipped at least SIX containers over as part of Wave 1. Do you guys know how much stuff you can jam into even a single 20" container? That is WAY overkill for KS.
container #1 didn’t have every component of Wave One in it. Some items aren't coming until container #2. Once #2 gets here, a bunch of backers’ rewards can be shipped, and even more when #3 gets here. After that, we’ll have received some of everything, and all of most things. Container #4 should have the last of the Battle Cry extras in it (most will be in #2 and #3), along with a bunch more main boxed games, and containers #5 and up will just have more copies of the main boxed game.
That means that once container #3 gets here, there won’t be any single backer’s Wave One rewards that we can’t ship. We’ll just be limited by how much stock we have, but containers #4 and up should restock us just about as fast as we can ship out backer rewards. When container #5 or #6 comes in, we’ll have enough to ship out the last of the backers’ Wave One rewards. That should be just past the middle of October.
They had at least 2 containers of nothing but starter boxes. Eh. Just go and measure a starter box, and then start filling an imaginary 20"x8"x8" box with them. That's if they didn't ship by 40" containers.
EDIT EDIT: Now that I know they shipped 9 f**king container loads, the $76k import makes more sense, as that breaks down to 7.5k per box, which is within reasonable limits especially if you paid insurance and still had to do overland shipping. It's the 9 containers part that is stupid.
And to add insult to injury, the fact that they quoted $65K import cost for Wave 2 means they were still thinking of bringing in 6-7 containers. Which means they were thinking of buying way more than to fulfill KS -- and that they are not learning from mistakes. Think epic, fail epic.
UPDATE: Discover has reversed the charges, credited my account, and are going after Palladium, Backerkit, and Kickstarter, based on what I told them. I am to provide documentation and screenshots in sufficient quantities and information to prove that Palladium initially complied with the TOU had offered refunds and then reversed their position in violation of the KS TOU.
Additionally, the Backerkit charge for add-ons is the easiest one to determine, as the charge is for products that were never received.
The initial Kickstarter/Palladium charge would require them to determine that Palladium/Siembieda had stated that refunds would be offered in support of the KS TOU, and then stated the reversal of position in violation of KS TOU.
The Discover agent has said to let any other Discover users know to also file a claim and they will use all the collected evidence to go after Palladium.
Lynx7725 wrote: Wave 2 has about 12 models, so more than Wave 1, yet he is estimating lower than Wave 1 cost.
Items found in Wave 2:
Rick Hunter VT: 1 figure. It says 3 on the campaign, but I think they hinted at or we assumed later that they'd try to skimp with just 1 and sending us a standard Guardian and Fighter sprue along with it. Roy Fokker: 1 Figure. Same as above. Armored Valkyries: 1 figure. "Experimental Battloids": 1 figure Lancers: 1 figure Ghosts: 1 figure YF-4: 3 figures VEF-1/1D Valkyrie Pack: This ended up being a mess. 3 figures? 6? Let's call it 3 with extra bits, even if that's insanity. Super VT: 3 figures Monster: 1 figure, but presumably more than one sprue based on size.
Khyron's Officer's Pod: 1 figure Miriya FPA: 1 figure Gnerl: 1 figure MPA: 1 figure Zentraedi Infantry: 1 kit that of 12 that can be made into 6 heavy and 6 light infantry? There was work shown of this as well, as I recall, rough as it was. Let's assume 1 sprue and they'd just duplicate it as needed? FPA: 1 figure Glaug Eldare: 1 figure, maybe big enough for more than a single sprue? Or just an oversized one? I don't know. Let's call it one.
The point of this breakdown is to give evidence that wave 2 wasn't simply another dozen figures; that count above is around 21 sprues, and that (highly arguably) assumes everything could be done on one sprue per 'type' (like, presumably the YF-4 and Super VT would be 3 different sprues to cover multiples of each mode, just like the normal VT was broken down). If multiple sprues were needed for the Monster or Glaug Eldare, that could easily get up around 2 dozen sprues that were needed to cover the 21(? based on the gakshow that was the VEF-1/1D fiasco) different figures that made up wave 2.
And that's before touching on the various resin bits, which made up roughly another dozen elements in the campaign, from bases to objective markers to the SDF-1 that was prototyped and then forgotten about.
Lynx7725 wrote: Also, $65K to import. How many containers was he thinking again?
Another thing to keep in mind is that, by raw numbers, wave 1 contained the lions share of the stuff we were getting in large quantities. A Battle Cry originally had 96 figures in it, as I recall, 97 when they realized that 2 Battloids per sprue but 5 VT's per core box was a 'hotdog buns/hotdogs' situation. I believe wave 1 delivered 70 of those. Now, some of them like the FPA, MPA, and Super VT were going to be a bit larger, and the Eldare/MAC-II were going to be substantially larger, but whereas backers were getting up to dozens of things like VT's and Battlepods, they'd be getting like 2 dozen plus add ons for the rest of their stuff.
Basically, it might not balance out perfectly, but they shouldn't (at a glance at least) have needed to ship nearly as much product for wave two. It had a ton more variety, but a lot less in bulk going for it. Which might have hurt with economy of scale to a degree, but that's not our problem.
judgedoug wrote: UPDATE: Discover has reversed the charges, credited my account, and are going after Palladium, Backerkit, and Kickstarter, based on what I told them. I am to provide documentation and screenshots in sufficient quantities and information to prove that Palladium initially complied with the TOU had offered refunds and then reversed their position in violation of the KS TOU.
Additionally, the Backerkit charge for add-ons is the easiest one to determine, as the charge is for products that were never received.
The initial Kickstarter/Palladium charge would require them to determine that Palladium/Siembieda had stated that refunds would be offered in support of the KS TOU, and then stated the reversal of position in violation of KS TOU.
The Discover agent has said to let any other Discover users know to also file a claim and they will use all the collected evidence to go after Palladium.
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
PB themselves saying it is, I think, in many people's PMs from them, when they were asking them for a refund years ago.
Lynx7725 wrote: Wave 2 has about 12 models, so more than Wave 1, yet he is estimating lower than Wave 1 cost.
Items found in Wave 2: [snip] The point of this breakdown is to give evidence that wave 2 wasn't simply another dozen figures; that count above is around 21 sprues, and that (highly arguably) assumes everything could be done on one sprue per 'type' (like, presumably the YF-4 and Super VT would be 3 different sprues to cover multiples of each mode, just like the normal VT was broken down). If multiple sprues were needed for the Monster or Glaug Eldare, that could easily get up around 2 dozen sprues that were needed to cover the 21(? based on the gakshow that was the VEF-1/1D fiasco) different figures that made up wave 2.
Heh, ok. Most of the hero stuff are likely going to be decal/ repaint/ resin drop-in or some such, so I just lumped them together (FPA, Khyron Glaug. The hero VT in particular are likely to reuse the existing VFs. I wasn't too sure if some of the experimental fighters would be resin or plastic, so I just went with resin; I did forget to triple the Supers though.
Still, if we went with your count, they still lowered their production quotes. That's just strange.
And that's before touching on the various resin bits, which made up roughly another dozen elements in the campaign, from bases to objective markers to the SDF-1 that was prototyped and then forgotten about.
I'd expect resin to be done in the States, not in China. Resin production in States is fairly well developed, and would be cheaper to procure that way.
EDIT: We were both updating our posts so I missed some things. Thing is, there's nothing wrong with getting more stock to support the game, but the funding is the issue. From the way PB is talking, I don't think they are differentiating KS funds from retail stock funds, i.e., they are dipping whole forearms into the KS funds to buy retail stock for Wave 1. That just accelerated them into pits, but is also something observable over the years from PB -- their accounting practices just sucks.
I hope someone kept the original info that was linked there (maybe the original rules release?). The images and video were hosted on kickstarter 
up ... that's a really weak and spineless leader who will amount to nothing.
