""Robotech RPG Tactics: The Continuing Saga
2 Comments
I have zero idea if what I am writing about is having any sort of impact. I hope that, if nothing else, people who are interested in purchasing Robotech RPG Tactics read the various reviews (mine and others-become an informed consumer) and get information about the game before they commit the money. I also hope that, in some way, these posts about Robotech RPG Tactics and the Kickstarter campaign are informing people about…well…
How not to run a Kickstarter
Palladium Books in relation to this Kickstarter
Robotech RPG Tactics
Potential ways to get your voice heard when a Kickstarter goes sideways
Contact the company via email, keep a copy of all emails sent and received
Call the company, keep a log of all calls made and received
Write the company, again keep a copy of all letters sent and received
Lodge a complaint with Kickstarter-even though they maintain a hands-off policy-lodging a complaint is a step and check-box in that “did you try everything you could”
If these don’t work, then time to consider the next step, which could be legal. If you go legal, you will have a record of your efforts to communicate with the company
Thirty plus days have passed since the last update from Palladium Books on the status of Wave 2. Gencon came and went, also without mention from Palladium Books. Now when I say update, I mean the updates posted to the Kickstarter that are supposed to keep backers up to date on the status of the Kickstarter. Palladium Books has posted some news through their email spam ad sheets sent out every Friday. In fact, without the spam I and other backers would have never found out a damn thing.
News that most people wanted to know, the status of Wave 2, was absent. A few sentences here and there about meeting with this person or that person and how Palladium Books is hoping or working to get part counts on models down, but no concrete details. Given that on July 10th, this was posted, “As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly.” the lack of a detailed breakdown is worrisome.
Word from Gencon, is that Robotech RPG Tactics was put on 30% sale and stayed on sale for the entire convention. I do not know how common that is at Gencon, but when we go to conventions the sales crop up on the last day, when people realize they have to move everything. The convention exclusives that Palladium Books were more than happy to sell to backers, did not sell as well as hoped-that is direct from Palladium Books. The spam ad sheets also have Robotech RPG Tactics on sale. So if you were thinking about buying, now is a good time, just keep in mind that the rest of the game has yet to be produced.
Meanwhile on the Kickstarter discussion page, legal action. Legal action has been a background conversation for a months now. It has been hard to gauge how serious anyone is; at least it was hard to gauge how serious anyone was. Over the last month, the conversation has gotten more serious with encouragement to others, such as links to the Better Business Bureau and Michigan Attorney General. To go along with those links, links to articles, such as this one, where a Kickstarter was sued, have appeared.
What will happen next? No idea. Palladium Books remains tight lipped and uncommunicative with backers. Some backers are frustrated enough to openly talk about suing Palladium Books. Many others have washed their hands of the Kickstarter. Speculation runs wild about status of Robotech RPG Tactics and Wave 2…from never going to happen to out of money. The only “solid” information is the standard line of continuing to support the game from Palladium Books.""
Yes. It's all looking rosy for backers from Washington.
The only benefit I see as a UK backer is that a judgement from a US state may increase the chance of a UK wide judgement following suit.
I have no idea if that will help backers from other US states, I hope it will. I don't believe, however, that it does anything worth crowing about this side of the pond. If I hear about a class action here in the UK, I may just join it. But I don't believe the number of backers will be enough to make that a reality - especially when you consider that Scotland, Irelend, and indeed Wales, may have to go through sepperate processes and the number of backers in each location would therefore be much smaller than a UK-wide action.
The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
You're having a laugh if you think you'll ever see Wave 2.
The chances of PB actually still having the finance in place to fund production more than 2 years after raising it are incredibly slim, to the point of ridiculous. To do so would mean the company would have to have an incredibly disciplined hold on its cash flow and reserves, together with the forethought to ringfence that finance early on.
Discipline and forethought are both things PB have proved admirably that they don't have. At all.
A while back I was in the 'meh' camp. But now I look around and I actively resent having wasted a few hundred dollars on this. It's not the amount (I've spent far more since), it's the fecklessness of the company that really does raise my ire. So no. Don't really care about Wave 2.
I don't want to see this sort of farce in any way viewed as acceptable - not personally, and not legally. Taking people's money means you have a responsibility to those people, and are answerable to them.
Attempting to peddle other wares in an obvious attempt to raise the money is laughable - this might have provided a significant cash injection if progress was made on the outstanding rewards people have already been promised. As there's no progress being shown the only assumption that can be drawn is that there's no progress. The only reason for no progress is no money.
In puppy terms, PB have shat on the carpet, and need their nose rubbing in it badly. Maybe they'll learn from it, maybe they'll go out of business. Either suits me.
PB has ALWAYS been strapped for cash and are always looking for a fast buck this is my #1 go-to fact about them.
Why I am willing to "delude" myself that I may see Wave 2 is the expectation that PB does not want to close the door to kickstarter as a future means of income forever.
Plus they have "committed" to doing it and gosh-darn it will get done... the timeline however may be a bit... extended.
The RRT kickstarter I am sure is the most money they had ever seen and it surprised them.
Guaranteed they will be looking back on that again and wondering what else they can get out of fool... um, "customers".
Who knows, they may also clue-in that trying to sell product as "new" usually means not 6months to a year old, so getting wave 2 in may work to get some more sales going.
The GHQ stuff may not do as well because it is metal (who does that now? ) and they got us boycotting it due to wave 2 rage.
I am sure they are somewhat disappointed because I could see them hanging their hat on this method for releasing the future generations of Robotech.
These new fangled plastic molded models are too much work for what they are used to.
The very last "excuse" I have for PB / Kevin getting wave 2 done is that there is no clear group / person he has footed the blame to for this bit.
If he thought it just was not happening, the big wind-up for throwing someone under the bus would be in motion now.
This whole project is the most attention they have had in over a decade and let's face it: they love attention.
I can easily see Kevin wanting to draw this out as long as possible.
Many conflicting factors at work but they all seem to point to it being some measure of self interest to get Wave 2 done.
Hopefully they have deluded themselves into thinking they are "awesome" and we would not abandon them completely when we get all our stuff.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Yup. It's definitely apples and oranges with that. All that the Washington lawsuit does is show a lawsuit CAN happen, but the circumstances are so dissimilar that it's almost not worth mentioning. This is not that. That's not to say it can't or won't be successful, but it'd definitely be uncharted territory, and likely cause a rewriting of Kickstarter policy, whereas the Washington one didn't. It was clear cut fraud.
Mike1975 wrote: I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
Doubt they'd be looking forward to it, as it'd quite possibly be the end of Palladium (depending on costs/judgments), and while certain things might not be transferable (particularly the licenses themselves, in particular Robotech), the entire backlog would be. Meaning even if Kevin's personal finances are unaffected, he'd lose control of Rifts, BtS, Splicers, etc. And even those licensed properties would just revert to their original holders, but not the stuff that was created for those properties. That'd be in the hands of the liquidators. So even if Kevin were to start a new company, he'd have to reacquire those licenses (and do so while avoiding collusion), and have to start from scratch, because if someone purchases the assets as a lot amount (rather than piecemeal), they'll hold the copyright on those books, but be unable to further publish them (unless THEY get the license). But even if they don't get the license, as Kevin is so fond of incessantly reminding people, they're still all copyrighted/trademarked, and so Kevin won't be able to print/reference/use them, either.
At least that's how I see the legal/financial landscape. Individual judgments (if succsessful, and that's a big if) may be survivable, but it's got a chance of snowballing quickly. But a similar judgment (though still, a completely different situation) to the Washington case, where the AG sued based on behalf of all backers, then PB is screwed, because I don't think they've got close to that amount in liquid assets. Meaning a firesale on stock/IP's, which might keep the company out of bankruptcy, but a shell of it's former self.
A lot of it will depend on if Palladium have done something shady. The rumormill has put forward that MAYBE they used the funds for general corporate expenditures (paying general pool salaries, utilities, etc rather than applied costs), for other product (Northern Gun is the usual example), or for additional corporate stock (using KS funds for materials to be sold retail). If none of those have happened, as long as all money raised was spent on this project (directly or in associated costs), it's quite possible the game dies, but PB survives. That'd be a huge hit to PB's already shaky reputation, but that hasn't bothered them so far. The true ironic thing would be that in that situation, there'd be no legal reason (AFAICS) why PB couldn't then spend it's own money to do Wave 2/Gen 2/Gen 3 items themselves, though arguably they'd have to do them from scratch (as the current work would belong to the defunct KS). And that'd REALLY make the natives restless, seeing stuff they'd paid for, released under different circumstances. But again, PB don't seem to give a crap about their public reputation. And it'd depend on the judgment put in place. If it put a lien on future product under the same license, it wouldn't be worth PB's effort.
All of the above is assuming my understanding of copyright and bankruptcy law isn't completely bananas batdrek crazy, or I haven't missed an important loophole.
winterdyne wrote: You're having a laugh if you think you'll ever see Wave 2.
The chances of PB actually still having the finance in place to fund production more than 2 years after raising it are incredibly slim, to the point of ridiculous. To do so would mean the company would have to have an incredibly disciplined hold on its cash flow and reserves, together with the forethought to ringfence that finance early on.
Discipline and forethought are both things PB have proved admirably that they don't have. At all.
A while back I was in the 'meh' camp. But now I look around and I actively resent having wasted a few hundred dollars on this. It's not the amount (I've spent far more since), it's the fecklessness of the company that really does raise my ire. So no. Don't really care about Wave 2.
I don't want to see this sort of farce in any way viewed as acceptable - not personally, and not legally. Taking people's money means you have a responsibility to those people, and are answerable to them.
Attempting to peddle other wares in an obvious attempt to raise the money is laughable - this might have provided a significant cash injection if progress was made on the outstanding rewards people have already been promised. As there's no progress being shown the only assumption that can be drawn is that there's no progress. The only reason for no progress is no money.
In puppy terms, PB have shat on the carpet, and need their nose rubbing in it badly. Maybe they'll learn from it, maybe they'll go out of business. Either suits me.
Never said the hopes were high there spiffy, just that they go to zero when a lawsuit occurs.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Yup. It's definitely apples and oranges with that. All that the Washington lawsuit does is show a lawsuit CAN happen, but the circumstances are so dissimilar that it's almost not worth mentioning. This is not that. That's not to say it can't or won't be successful, but it'd definitely be uncharted territory, and likely cause a rewriting of Kickstarter policy, whereas the Washington one didn't. It was clear cut fraud.
Mike1975 wrote: I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
Doubt they'd be looking forward to it, as it'd quite possibly be the end of Palladium (depending on costs/judgments), and while certain things might not be transferable (particularly the licenses themselves, in particular Robotech), the entire backlog would be. Meaning even if Kevin's personal finances are unaffected, he'd lose control of Rifts, BtS, Splicers, etc. And even those licensed properties would just revert to their original holders, but not the stuff that was created for those properties. That'd be in the hands of the liquidators. So even if Kevin were to start a new company, he'd have to reacquire those licenses (and do so while avoiding collusion), and have to start from scratch, because if someone purchases the assets as a lot amount (rather than piecemeal), they'll hold the copyright on those books, but be unable to further publish them (unless THEY get the license). But even if they don't get the license, as Kevin is so fond of incessantly reminding people, they're still all copyrighted/trademarked, and so Kevin won't be able to print/reference/use them, either.
At least that's how I see the legal/financial landscape. Individual judgments (if succsessful, and that's a big if) may be survivable, but it's got a chance of snowballing quickly. But a similar judgment (though still, a completely different situation) to the Washington case, where the AG sued based on behalf of all backers, then PB is screwed, because I don't think they've got close to that amount in liquid assets. Meaning a firesale on stock/IP's, which might keep the company out of bankruptcy, but a shell of it's former self.
A lot of it will depend on if Palladium have done something shady. The rumormill has put forward that MAYBE they used the funds for general corporate expenditures (paying general pool salaries, utilities, etc rather than applied costs), for other product (Northern Gun is the usual example), or for additional corporate stock (using KS funds for materials to be sold retail). If none of those have happened, as long as all money raised was spent on this project (directly or in associated costs), it's quite possible the game dies, but PB survives. That'd be a huge hit to PB's already shaky reputation, but that hasn't bothered them so far. The true ironic thing would be that in that situation, there'd be no legal reason (AFAICS) why PB couldn't then spend it's own money to do Wave 2/Gen 2/Gen 3 items themselves, though arguably they'd have to do them from scratch (as the current work would belong to the defunct KS). And that'd REALLY make the natives restless, seeing stuff they'd paid for, released under different circumstances. But again, PB don't seem to give a crap about their public reputation. And it'd depend on the judgment put in place. If it put a lien on future product under the same license, it wouldn't be worth PB's effort.
All of the above is assuming my understanding of copyright and bankruptcy law isn't completely bananas batdrek crazy, or I haven't missed an important loophole.
It'll all be determined in court. The legal costs alone could kill any chance of wave 2 and many people understand and agree with me on that. More than I thought would honestly.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
The mantra from last year was 'lawl it's all but impossible to get a judgement over a Kickstarter'.
Until now there are.
Even tangential as they might be, I would be concerned about being made an example of/setting precedent, if I were PB.
Bluntly, they need to drop an update with some fething content and they need to do it yesterday (well, 5 months ago or so, but point being, it is *long* overdue).
From my read of people, it's not just that they are taking their sweet time on this (2 years late, maybe 3 if this drifts into 2016, is pretty damned late), but that they've clammed up tight after telling us info would be coming in February, and then again in July, before suddenly there's 'nothing physical to show' us. So show us some digital progress, damnit!
I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do.
Yeah Mike, real shocker there. ;-)
Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?
If they can't afford to toss someone $40-80 (remember, we know that the vast majority of backers are in the US, so while international shipping complicates things, that's only around 1/4-1/5 of the backers) plus the value of any add ons (the average backer contributed $270 before the pledge manager, I'm guessing Showdowns or BC's + a pile of add ons were popular choices), then they really are in serious trouble, and not because any backer or 10 backers or 100 backers asked them to gak or get off the pot. I'm sure there's more math to be done, and that some donkey caves would've accept anything less than a full refund, but the point is that it even in aggregate, a couple of grand to shut up and get rid of dozens of the most vocal types seems like a damned fine risk/reward ratio at this point.
Not to mention that it still becomes a loan that they didn't have to repay for 2.5 years, and saves them on shipping. Hell, at this point I'd expect that international backers being refunded would flat out be saving them money, compared to shipping a second round of boxes out into the world.
Remember, we're constantly being told that the dissatisfied folks are a tiny minority of vocal donkey caves.
Again, it's not necessarily a case of being issued a refund.
I'm not sure how it works stateside, but here a court order can (and often simply does) state a course of action that is mandatory for a party (such as demonstrate evidence of progress within a certain, specified timeframe). It doesn't necessarily involve punitive measures, though breach of order can and does. Such simple orders generally don't incur much in the way of costs, unless they are contested (which usually by the time they hit court they're not going to be as the lawyers have already come to a determination of who's at fault and will have advised settlement if a loss was likely).
For example, you take a contractor to court for doing a shoddy job. The court could order a full or partial refund, or could order that the job be made good at the contractor's expense. Failing to do so (usually a timeframe is set by the court) results in far harsher judgements.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Yup. It's definitely apples and oranges with that. All that the Washington lawsuit does is show a lawsuit CAN happen, but the circumstances are so dissimilar that it's almost not worth mentioning. This is not that. That's not to say it can't or won't be successful, but it'd definitely be uncharted territory, and likely cause a rewriting of Kickstarter policy, whereas the Washington one didn't. It was clear cut fraud.
Actually Morgan while the Washington case was being decided kickstarter pledges were being delivered according to comments and posts on that kickstarter forum page.
Mike1975 wrote: I let it ride on my site out of curiosity and it's not right to censor simple things like this. Glad I did since it pretty much confirms that others feel as I do. Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
Doubt they'd be looking forward to it, as it'd quite possibly be the end of Palladium (depending on costs/judgments), and while certain things might not be transferable (particularly the licenses themselves, in particular Robotech), the entire backlog would be. Meaning even if Kevin's personal finances are unaffected, he'd lose control of Rifts, BtS, Splicers, etc. And even those licensed properties would just revert to their original holders, but not the stuff that was created for those properties. That'd be in the hands of the liquidators. So even if Kevin were to start a new company, he'd have to reacquire those licenses (and do so while avoiding collusion), and have to start from scratch, because if someone purchases the assets as a lot amount (rather than piecemeal), they'll hold the copyright on those books, but be unable to further publish them (unless THEY get the license). But even if they don't get the license, as Kevin is so fond of incessantly reminding people, they're still all copyrighted/trademarked, and so Kevin won't be able to print/reference/use them, either.
At least that's how I see the legal/financial landscape. Individual judgments (if succsessful, and that's a big if) may be survivable, but it's got a chance of snowballing quickly. But a similar judgment (though still, a completely different situation) to the Washington case, where the AG sued based on behalf of all backers, then PB is screwed, because I don't think they've got close to that amount in liquid assets. Meaning a firesale on stock/IP's, which might keep the company out of bankruptcy, but a shell of it's former self.
A lot of it will depend on if Palladium have done something shady. The rumormill has put forward that MAYBE they used the funds for general corporate expenditures (paying general pool salaries, utilities, etc rather than applied costs), for other product (Northern Gun is the usual example), or for additional corporate stock (using KS funds for materials to be sold retail). If none of those have happened, as long as all money raised was spent on this project (directly or in associated costs), it's quite possible the game dies, but PB survives. That'd be a huge hit to PB's already shaky reputation, but that hasn't bothered them so far. The true ironic thing would be that in that situation, there'd be no legal reason (AFAICS) why PB couldn't then spend it's own money to do Wave 2/Gen 2/Gen 3 items themselves, though arguably they'd have to do them from scratch (as the current work would belong to the defunct KS). And that'd REALLY make the natives restless, seeing stuff they'd paid for, released under different circumstances. But again, PB don't seem to give a crap about their public reputation. And it'd depend on the judgment put in place. If it put a lien on future product under the same license, it wouldn't be worth PB's effort.
All of the above is assuming my understanding of copyright and bankruptcy law isn't completely bananas batdrek crazy, or I haven't missed an important loophole.
there are several ways this could break down:
1: if PB faces only individual lawsuits, it could hurt them financially, will they survive? it all depends on how many sue them, since each suit brings with it awards/damages, court costs, lawyer fees and such.
2: if the AG gets involved, if the AG gets involved its game over for PB since if the AG takes them to court and they are found guilty, they can get fines of up to $1,500 for each backer, whether the backer wants to or not.
3: if the FTC gets involved, this will be the double whammy, if both the AG and the FTC get involved.
4: if PB goes broke and files bankruptcy, first thing that will happen is they lose the Robotech License from HG, furthermore any licensed properties owned by PB will be auctioned off where the winning bidder can use them how ever they want, since they will own the License and IP rights, heres where it used to get funky is that other names associated with said properties would also have a say in how they were used in future matters, problem is all of PB's writers and authors and so forth signed a little agreement which gave PB sole possesion of said writings for a small denominational fee, which means PB owns it lock, stock, and barrel, but anywhoo, the IP/license rights are sold off PB cannot work in them anymore, they no longer own the rights to Rifts or whatever, they now belong to the new owner.
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?
If they can't afford to toss someone $40-80 (remember, we know that the vast majority of backers are in the US, so while international shipping complicates things, that's only around 1/4-1/5 of the backers) plus the value of any add ons (the average backer contributed $270 before the pledge manager, I'm guessing Showdowns or BC's + a pile of add ons were popular choices), then they really are in serious trouble, and not because any backer or 10 backers or 100 backers asked them to gak or get off the pot. I'm sure there's more math to be done, and that some donkey caves would've accept anything less than a full refund, but the point is that it even in aggregate, a couple of grand to shut up and get rid of dozens of the most vocal types seems like a damned fine risk/reward ratio at this point.
Not to mention that it still becomes a loan that they didn't have to repay for 2.5 years, and saves them on shipping. Hell, at this point I'd expect that international backers being refunded would flat out be saving them money, compared to shipping a second round of boxes out into the world.
Remember, we're constantly being told that the dissatisfied folks are a tiny minority of vocal donkey caves.
well except for one problem there Forar, if you read my copy of Kevin's response to my complaint to the BBB I posted in the Robotech Uncensored group you will have noted that Kevin gave full retail value for everything in the BC package and everything received, as his way of saying he owes us nothing, but by him doing so, he has also raised the value of the items not delivered, which makes me wonder if his lawyer ever read that response he sent, since he accuses me of leading the charge for people to file with the BBB which is not nice and sadly not true, my highlights have only been about what I am doing, nor was I the first one to post about sending in a complaint with the BBB.
If they were sensible, that'd be the olive branch I'd consider extending.
I never said they were entirely sensible people.
if they were, we wouldn't be in this position.
Edit: and the main thrust of my point is that it'd be vastly more reasonable to nip such things in the bud. If someone has a hate-boner for trying to drive them into the ground, that's beyond their control aside from defending themselves in court if and when that actually occurs.
But I imagine many of the frustrated people here would be content to get a proportional refund and to wash their hands of this thing, and that not only removes avenues of attack, it reduces the 'mob' in size, which can snowball out of control. Reduce the support structure, reduce the likelihood of people pursuing things ever further.
If they want to gamble in court, that's their prerogative.
Forar wrote: Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?
For those that had that, sure.
I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]
I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?
Forar wrote: Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?
For those that had that, sure.
I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]
I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?
Add ons I'd expect to be repaid in full. $40 for a MAC-II with no MAC-II delivered equals $40 outstanding.
That section was entirely based on the partial delivery of the Battle Cry tier and multiples thereof.
Believe me, I empathize. My group paid $250 in add ons, and to date we've received 2 Destroid boxes out of it (Daedalus Attack, 2 Armored VT packs, VEF/1D pack, Eldare). That's nearly the average contribution outstanding in add ons alone, and even if my group accepted a partial return on the BC's, I'd expect that paid back in full.
$140 for a core box and the bonus baggy is one thing. Somewhere around $275 Canadian in other add ons missing is another entirely.
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?
I'd personally say that the value of what has been shipped so far should be proportional to the retail value that would be charged (or in the case of the nonexistant wave 2 stuff the KS add on prices). The core box is full of minis but it's MSRP is low compared with the add ons that we get so many of due to pledge goals. I'd be curious to see how much those remaining pledge goals are worth as dictated by the individual add on prices compared with what we've already gotten. My guess is that due to the relative "lack" of value of the add ons compared with the core box, palladium still has to deliver well over half the actual value of the KS by that metric.
Agreed, and I actually had a spreadsheet that sorted out the proportional value of what had been delivered based on retail and expected retail costs.
Of course, with the MSRP shooting up considerably for wave one (and retail dropping significantly as well), those numbers became a lot fuzzier, and the existence of things that don't really have an MSRP (the LE/KS-Con exclusives, even if they have a convention standard price, their limited availability messes with that a bit).
I'm just napkin math'ing out something that'd be reasonable enough for prime time. If they offered me a reasonable sum to skip out on my 3 BC's, I'd probably take it, and am pretty sure at least one of the other two guys would as well (maybe all three of us).
It'll all be determined in court. The legal costs alone could kill any chance of wave 2 and many people understand and agree with me on that. More than I thought would honestly.
I think you're misunderstanding things. Any reasonable person who is actually going through legal and formal steps (like filing complaints with the BBB) likely knows they're decreasing the chances of wave 2 being delivered to the backers as a whole but by being the squeaky wheel that they may get a bit of oil regardless. They just don't care because they're fed up with Palladium and because they think the overall chances of getting anything further are low enough to be worth taking the risk.
well except for one problem there Forar, if you read my copy of Kevin's response to my complaint to the BBB I posted in the Robotech Uncensored group you will have noted that Kevin gave full retail value for everything in the BC package and everything received, as his way of saying he owes us nothing, but by him doing so, he has also raised the value of the items not delivered, which makes me wonder if his lawyer ever read that response he sent, since he accuses me of leading the charge for people to file with the BBB which is not nice and sadly not true, my highlights have only been about what I am doing, nor was I the first one to post about sending in a complaint with the BBB.
I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]
I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?
If you paid $145 and got $5, you're due $140 plus interest. That's my view. When you return something in any other venue, you don't subtract the stores fees for the credit cards, their employees salaries or electric bill accrued in the meantime, or anything else. If it went to court, I'd hope that just like in the Washington case that if it were decided against Palladium that they'd also have fines added to the judgement. The best solution, however, would be simply the actual realistic threat of a lawsuit filed from a reputable (and reliable) source like an Attorney General (sorry, Asterios, but you don't meet either criteria after years of crying wolf) like being served would galvanize Palladium into actually doing something. They fethed up, whether directly themselves (like with 2 years worth of post KS communication which is 100% Palladium's fault) or whether through their personally chosen subcontractors like Ninja Division. Did ND have some hand in the initial screwups? Probably.. they were the primary screwups in Relic Knights (and not CMON) from what I heard from (an admittedly CMON biased) source. Did palladium screw up the production in the TWO YEARS since? Very likely as well. Then through in a chinese factory that doesn't care and a licensor that is as screwed up (but confident as heck!) as all of the above. Palladium whether indirectly or directly fethed up; they're the ones who should be paying the price, not backers. If any potential lawsuit makes them get off their asses to get a bank loan and finance the rest of the line via the traditional methods that they would have had to have used prior to kickstarter (putting up their own property/IP as collateral), I consider that to be a fair and equitable resolution. I suspect that if they had their own property at risk instead of the money of others in limbo to use at will, wave 2 would have been out already.
I think it was President Truman that coined the phrase "the buck stops here" as a way of showing personal responsibility for what happened with the country. Palladium's name is the one on the kickstarter and they're the ones managing everything that went and goes on; the buck literally stops with them. Unfortunately, with Kevin Siembieda, the buck figuratively stop with him as well since he took it, cashed it, and will decide if and when he'll do anything further with it.
well except for one problem there Forar, if you read my copy of Kevin's response to my complaint to the BBB I posted in the Robotech Uncensored group you will have noted that Kevin gave full retail value for everything in the BC package and everything received, as his way of saying he owes us nothing, but by him doing so, he has also raised the value of the items not delivered, which makes me wonder if his lawyer ever read that response he sent, since he accuses me of leading the charge for people to file with the BBB which is not nice and sadly not true, my highlights have only been about what I am doing, nor was I the first one to post about sending in a complaint with the BBB.
Any chance you could re-post that here?
Thanks!
its in a PDF file and trying to figure out how to add a PDF file here ?
I feel like a stuck record here, but I paid $145 (Ish, CBA to dig harder for what I pledged for after all this time.) and so far have received a $5 (ish) set of decals. How much of that $140 am I due back? [$140. I didn't ask them to pay someone else for doing noting since promoting the POSSIBILITY of some robotech models. I should get back either what I expected for my pledge, or the money. I paid in £ so I could end up losing on the exchange rate either way, but KS have done nothing to encourage PB to get it out correctly or on time, so they ought to re-imburse the backers their fees on a project that has gone so far off track it's seriously in danger of falling of the edge.]
I mean, after all, if I'd gone to PB with the idea for this, paid them M$1.4, and got out of it what had been delivered, their backside would have been in court long ago for FRAUD. But because they had the idea, came to us for the same money, we have no comeback?
If you paid $145 and got $5, you're due $140 plus interest. That's my view. When you return something in any other venue, you don't subtract the stores fees for the credit cards, their employees salaries or electric bill accrued in the meantime, or anything else. If it went to court, I'd hope that just like in the Washington case that if it were decided against Palladium that they'd also have fines added to the judgement. The best solution, however, would be simply the actual realistic threat of a lawsuit filed from a reputable (and reliable) source like an Attorney General (sorry, Asterios, but you don't meet either criteria after years of crying wolf) like being served would galvanize Palladium into actually doing something. They fethed up, whether directly themselves (like with 2 years worth of post KS communication which is 100% Palladium's fault) or whether through their personally chosen subcontractors like Ninja Division. Did ND have some hand in the initial screwups? Probably.. they were the primary screwups in Relic Knights (and not CMON) from what I heard from (an admittedly CMON biased) source. Did palladium screw up the production in the TWO YEARS since? Very likely as well. Then through in a chinese factory that doesn't care and a licensor that is as screwed up (but confident as heck!) as all of the above. Palladium whether indirectly or directly fethed up; they're the ones who should be paying the price, not backers. If any potential lawsuit makes them get off their asses to get a bank loan and finance the rest of the line via the traditional methods that they would have had to have used prior to kickstarter (putting up their own property/IP as collateral), I consider that to be a fair and equitable resolution. I suspect that if they had their own property at risk instead of the money of others in limbo to use at will, wave 2 would have been out already.
I think it was President Truman that coined the phrase "the buck stops here" as a way of showing personal responsibility for what happened with the country. Palladium's name is the one on the kickstarter and they're the ones managing everything that went and goes on; the buck literally stops with them. Unfortunately, with Kevin Siembieda, the buck figuratively stop with him as well since he took it, cashed it, and will decide if and when he'll do anything further with it.
problem is with people like me PB can resolve, with the AG and/or FTC ther is no resolution, its either win or lose.
its in a PDF file and trying to figure out how to add a PDF file here ?
When you post, you have two tabs under the text window when you type: Options Attachments. If you click attachments, you should be able to attach the pdf to the post as long as it is less than 10mb from what it says. If your pdf is too big, you're probably better off just doing a screen grab or two of the actual responses and posting them as pics the same way. If it's in a searchable text pdf, you could also just ctrl-c copy and paste it into a quote tag.
Alpharius wrote: NOTE: Non-wargaming attachments are a no-no on Dakka Dakka too.
I think this one would be OK though...
well it is specific to this topic, and its like a post and contains no offensive material(depending on your point of view), albeit some of it is a bit repetitive.
There have been 14 Updates in the last seven months alone, one of them showing multiple pictures and breaking down exactly what the status of several game pieces was at the time.
Lol, he neglects to mention that the update with those pics was 6 months ago and that NOTHING new of note has been posted in the 13 updates since. The updates since February have contained only a single sentence of note that REPEATED the already published info about a possible (and increasingly unlikely) late 2015 delivery date mentioned at Adepticon. The rest were so vague as to be ridiculous to use as proof of actual progress (we talked on the phone! we looked at stuff! we're trying hard!) and the vast majority of the 13 updates since have been to sell us fuzzy dice and floor mats for the 2013 luxury car that they have yet to fully deliver. Sure, they delivered a technically working and street legal auto but it only has 3 of the four doors promised, 1 forward gear and no reverse, and they decided long after we paid not to do a convertible. But, hey, they've got shiny new floor mats to sell us for it!?! Buy now! Lol.
There have been 14 Updates in the last seven months alone, one of them showing multiple pictures and breaking down exactly what the status of several game pieces was at the time.
Lol, he neglects to mention that the update with those pics was 6 months ago and that NOTHING new of note has been posted in the 13 updates since. The updates since February have contained only a single sentence of note that REPEATED the already published info about a possible (and increasingly unlikely) late 2015 delivery date mentioned at Adepticon. The rest were so vague as to be ridiculous to use as proof of actual progress (we talked on the phone! we looked at stuff! we're trying hard!) and the vast majority of the 13 updates since have been to sell us fuzzy dice and floor mats for the 2013 luxury car that they have yet to fully deliver. Sure, they delivered a technically working and street legal auto but it only has 3 of the four doors promised, 1 forward gear and no reverse, and they decided long after we paid not to do a convertible. But, hey, they've got shiny new floor mats to sell us for it!?! Buy now! Lol.
like I said, me thinks he didn't have a lawyer read that. also if this is any indication of his case, hes screwed.
Sorry to re-appear as a non-injured party, but Talizvar made me wonder something that perhaps folks here might know.
With KickStarter you are equipped with the (largely untested) handwavium of the KickStarter Terms of Service that says you're not placing an order but backing an idea because KickStarter is not a store and other such attempts to alter reality. With BackerKit, does an entity have the same level of "protection" (again, setting aside how paper thin that may or may not be)? I believe that service looks very store-like and it's not "give me money to make my dream a reality and I'll send you X based on how much" that KickStarter can claim; there is a very specific dollar-to-object relationship with that interface. That then, to me, would cast doubt on the ability to deflect that the main campaign was in a similar scenario.
Stated another way, does the use of a service and/or document that 1) makes it clear that a concrete relationship of "X=Y" exists and 2) provides a clear "public" definition of that relationship pierce a hole through the veil PB is trying to hide behind in that BBB response?
I'm not a lawyer by any stretch, it was just idle curiosity while catching up during a lunch break.
Many conflicting factors at work but they all seem to point to it being some measure of self interest to get Wave 2 done.
Hopefully they have deluded themselves into thinking they are "awesome" and we would not abandon them completely when we get all our stuff.
Sure, but whether it would be good for them to be able to fleece more people on another KS, or whether it would be good to complete Wave Two to avoid torches and pitchforks is completely irrelevant if they CAN'T do it.
Krinsath wrote: Sorry to re-appear as a non-injured party, but Talizvar made me wonder something that perhaps folks here might know.
With KickStarter you are equipped with the (largely untested) handwavium of the KickStarter Terms of Service that says you're not placing an order but backing an idea because KickStarter is not a store and other such attempts to alter reality. With BackerKit, does an entity have the same level of "protection" (again, setting aside how paper thin that may or may not be)? I believe that service looks very store-like and it's not "give me money to make my dream a reality and I'll send you X based on how much" that KickStarter can claim; there is a very specific dollar-to-object relationship with that interface. That then, to me, would cast doubt on the ability to deflect that the main campaign was in a similar scenario.
Stated another way, does the use of a service and/or document that 1) makes it clear that a concrete relationship of "X=Y" exists and 2) provides a clear "public" definition of that relationship pierce a hole through the veil PB is trying to hide behind in that BBB response?
I'm not a lawyer by any stretch, it was just idle curiosity while catching up during a lunch break.
like I said I don't think Kevin had his lawyer read his response before posting it.
Lawsuits will only kill anything if PB obstinately refuses to provide refunds for backers. Even if it was just add ons and a proportional value of outstanding BC stuff. Let's take a starting point of $140, minus KS/Amazon's fees, let's call it ~$125, and with over 2/3 shipped (by quantity if not value), so $40 per BC or so?
If they can't afford to toss someone $40-80 (remember, we know that the vast majority of backers are in the US, so while international shipping complicates things, that's only around 1/4-1/5 of the backers) plus the value of any add ons (the average backer contributed $270 before the pledge manager, I'm guessing Showdowns or BC's + a pile of add ons were popular choices), then they really are in serious trouble, and not because any backer or 10 backers or 100 backers asked them to gak or get off the pot. I'm sure there's more math to be done, and that some donkey caves would've accept anything less than a full refund, but the point is that it even in aggregate, a couple of grand to shut up and get rid of dozens of the most vocal types seems like a damned fine risk/reward ratio at this point.
And, let's recall that, at least in regards to international orders, they would probably actually SAVE money by allowing those people refunds. They're getting reamed on shipping because they were shortsighted (no!) on the cost of it.
One thing that is clear is that Kevin is not big on doing math ahead of time. He just lets his natural awesomeness smooth out the details.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.
A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.
A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.
But surely embracing that 2% chance of Wave Two actually happening is worth continuing to bend over and give PB all the forgiveness in the world?
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.
A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.
True John, the thing PB has to worry about is if the any states AG office gets involved and/or the FTC gets involved since they cannot make them magically disappear or resolve the matter, so as a short term defense, PB should refund those not happy that are at the point of bringing in such entities.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.
A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.
True John, the thing PB has to worry about is if the any states AG office gets involved and/or the FTC gets involved since they cannot make them magically disappear or resolve the matter, so as a short term defense, PB should refund those not happy that are at the point of bringing in such entities.
Yeah, if the FTC or and AG wants to make an example of PB, they're up gak's creek.
Mike1975 wrote: The threads started in FB on lawsuits have been interesting. Mostly impartial or against a lawsuit and some even laugh at the people who think they can get anything and point out that we do have something and that the other lawsuits on Kickstarter projects were against people that took the money and ran off.
Lawsuits will more than likely just kill any small chance we have at wave two completely. Shoot, PB might even be looking forward to it as a reason for them not being able to fulfill wave two.
The difference being that PB is a quasi-legit business with assets (incl. Wave 1 assets) that could be liquidated in a lawsuit (whatever is nailed down and doesn't magically "disappear" in yet another "Crisis of Treachery"), versus some unknown random individual who can more easily disappear.
A protracted lawsuit would indeed kill PB and Wave 2; however, lawsuits are generally more effective at forcing settlement and action before it gets to that point. As a blunt hammer, if nothing else is working, a lawsuit gets them to recognize that some backers are actually really fething serious about getting something for their money.
True John, the thing PB has to worry about is if the any states AG office gets involved and/or the FTC gets involved since they cannot make them magically disappear or resolve the matter, so as a short term defense, PB should refund those not happy that are at the point of bringing in such entities.
Yeah, if the FTC or and AG wants to make an example of PB, they're up gak's creek.
and right now with the general consensus of how these kickstarters in general and such are going, PB better hurry up with something.
The worst part for PB is that PB is an ideal target, being ridiculously mismanged, having raised a goodly amount of money, and tied to something that a lot of people remember.
As an AG, I'd far rather go after PB than Imbrian Arts.
well just got a letter from my States AG office and according to them they have sent a letter to Palladium containing my letter and an inquiry from their office in regards to this matter.
I wouldn't go that far since this seems more like a form letter in a sense they are sending an inquiry only and not a full fledge investigation, but maybe later when substantial evidence is presented to them of PB breaking California laws, but for now its just an inquiry.
No, it's real - PB is now officially on an AG's radar. Unlike a backer, PB will actually have to respond to the inquiry. They can't just gak-can it and do nothing.
Based on what I read on ricks BBB statement I get the feeling that if Kevin gives up on wave two they will still not issue any partial refunds since they don't feel obligated to because it's kickstarter.
So let's see, just for comparison/analysis....I pledged ~$700 total.
I ordered a Showdown plus a battlecry and extras (grab bag) $400
the Decal Sheets x2 $10
Artillery Pods x2 adds $40
Armored VT's $20
YF-4 $30
VEF-1/VF-1D $30
Glaug-Eldare $30
Zen Infantry x2 $60
Objective Pack $15
SDF-1 $20
Decals from each x1 $10
And that's pretty close by memory.
These are what have been delivered. Assuming that the Showdown and Battlecry are only half delivered that's around $250 of my $700
Showdown plus a battlecry and extras (grab bag) $200
the Decal Sheets $10
Artillery Pods x2 adds $40
Now for the rest. Assuming that we are talking value vs full retail sales cost
Showdown plus Battlecry x3 ~$100 per box
Plus an extra 12 Pods x3 = $36 ea or $108
Plus an extra Command Pack x3 = ~$108
Plus the Spartan and Phalanx Packs x2 = ~$108
Plus extra Arty Pods x3 = ~$108
Plus extra Veritech Packs x3 = ~$108
Decal Sheets ~$15?
Plus I have an extra 2 Arty Pod Boxes = ~$72
So ignoring wave 2 and looking at what has been delivered...again, retail...that's about $927 worth of stuff.
So I got what I do have at about 75% of the retail value. That PLUS all the wave 2 things that need to come which is probably about the same or more in total value....
Using the likely retail sales points
Armored VT's $24
YF-4 $36
VEF-1/VF-1D $36
Glaug-Eldare $36
Zen Infantry x2 $72
Objective Pack $20
SDF-1 $25
Decals from each x1 $10
~$259
Assuming Wave 2 arrives...here is the rest.
Miriya x3 = ~$24 ($8 ea)
Roy x3 = ~$54
Rick x3 = ~$54
Khyron x3 = ~$24
Gnerls x9 = ~$54
MPA x 9 = ~$54
FPA x 9 = ~$54
Supers x6 = ~$108
Ghosts x6 =~$54
Lancers x6 = ~54
~$534
So wave 2 I'm missing ~ $793 of stuff retail or about 46% of my pledge. A bit less than half. I might have missed something in there.
So, at least for me, this means that I at least got most of my investment back BUT I'm still missing half of what was promised.
In the end supporting RRT was not bad. It obviously could have been much much better and also has a long ways to go till full completion
.
Based on what I read on ricks BBB statement I get the feeling that if Kevin gives up on wave two they will still not issue any partial refunds since they don't feel obligated to because it's kickstarter.
They won't refund anybody. Partial or otherwise. Wave 2 or otherwise.
Yes Mike and that's when me and a lot of people will go to their states AG. I'm surprised your still in their corner considering how this project seems to be falling apart.
Cypher-xv wrote: Yes Mike and that's when me and a lot of people will go to their states AG. I'm surprised your still in their corner considering how this project seems to be falling apart.
oh wouldn't say Mike's in their corner, hes still hoping, but he has already made plans to get his mechs from other avenues from what I've heard
Cypher-xv wrote: Yes Mike and that's when me and a lot of people will go to their states AG. I'm surprised your still in their corner considering how this project seems to be falling apart.
I'm in my corner. You should know better than that. I'll take a slim chance at something to no chance at anything any day.
Mike, why are you comparing to the full MSRP? Would you seriously have been buying from their web store at full price? Wouldn't have taken advantage of CSI's free shipping?
To prove I'm not a complete tool, let's look at this overly charitably: a Battle Cry basically comes down to a double Core Box plus an expansion (9 VT's instead of 10, missing a T/D Destroid pack but gaining a S/P Destroid pack, gaining an Artillery Pod box, but otherwise basically that's what it boils down to). Sure, you're missing some tokens, the extra rule book, and dice with the BC, but it's close enough as an estimate.
By that standard, a Wave One BC would cost somewhere around $150-175'ish US (give or take); cores are often in the 65-75 range, and expansions (like the Artillery pods) are often around 20-30, plus or minus a little (then there's taxes, shipping, etc).
So, if one ignores that they are missing dozens of figures (and that what we got is mostly repeated units, with little variety in the sprues), sure, I'll bite, one can feasibly argue that backers basically ended up pre-ordering at vaguely retail prices.
It's not a crime against finances, nor was it a massive savings. It becomes a something closer to parity, depending on a lot of factors.
But add ons? Those we're getting fethed on, no doubt about that.
And bluntly, there's hilarity in them increasing MSRP's playing to their favour in this kind of calculation. "Oh, VT boxes are $38 MSRP!", except they were more like $30 before the bump, were $25 during the campaign, and have been as low as $12 when CSI was apparently trying to pitch them into the market last Christmas.
They said they'd deliver 97 figures for $140. They've delivered 70 of those. Even if the MSRP or Retail amount of those 70 figures is more than $140, they still owe us product. Product that they dangled and teased to draw in greater and greater funding. Remember how the FPA, Super VT, MAC-II and other figures were teased out for days and weeks? That didn't happen in a vacuum. Not to mention that they went on at length about how much value the backers were getting by contributing. It wasn't "oh, basically pay store prices 2 years in advance to get these figures", that funding was predicated on people getting a much broader cross section of the product line, and massive savings at that.
I very clearly remember people weighing out how "oh, but I want more FPA's and MPA's and Gnerls" and realizing that for an extra $20 or $40 they could get a whole extra BC, giving them what they wanted and another pile of figures on top of that.
The value found was part of the draw at that price point. Declaring a pair of VT's to be worth $40 doesn't mean a BC contains $180 worth of VT's alone.
I might be misunderstanding, but from readings Kevin's claims, there is actually no benefit to being a backer on Kickstarters?
You take all the risk and aren't actually entitled to what you are promised?
Is this also kickstarters view?
Forar wrote: Mike, why are you comparing to the full MSRP? Would you seriously have been buying from their web store at full price? Wouldn't have taken advantage of CSI's free shipping?
To prove I'm not a complete tool, let's look at this overly charitably: a Battle Cry basically comes down to a double Core Box plus an expansion (9 VT's instead of 10, missing a T/D Destroid pack but gaining a S/P Destroid pack, gaining an Artillery Pod box, but otherwise basically that's what it boils down to). Sure, you're missing some tokens, the extra rule book, and dice with the BC, but it's close enough as an estimate.
By that standard, a Wave One BC would cost somewhere around $150-175'ish US (give or take); cores are often in the 65-75 range, and expansions (like the Artillery pods) are often around 20-30, plus or minus a little (then there's taxes, shipping, etc).
So, if one ignores that they are missing dozens of figures (and that what we got is mostly repeated units, with little variety in the sprues), sure, I'll bite, one can feasibly argue that backers basically ended up pre-ordering at vaguely retail prices.
It's not a crime against finances, nor was it a massive savings. It becomes a something closer to parity, depending on a lot of factors.
But add ons? Those we're getting fethed on, no doubt about that.
And bluntly, there's hilarity in them increasing MSRP's playing to their favour in this kind of calculation. "Oh, VT boxes are $38 MSRP!", except they were more like $30 before the bump, were $25 during the campaign, and have been as low as $12 when CSI was apparently trying to pitch them into the market last Christmas.
They said they'd deliver 97 figures for $140. They've delivered 70 of those. Even if the MSRP or Retail amount of those 70 figures is more than $140, they still owe us product. Product that they dangled and teased to draw in greater and greater funding. Remember how the FPA, Super VT, MAC-II and other figures were teased out for days and weeks? That didn't happen in a vacuum. Not to mention that they went on at length about how much value the backers were getting by contributing. It wasn't "oh, basically pay store prices 2 years in advance to get these figures", that funding was predicated on people getting a much broader cross section of the product line, and massive savings at that.
I very clearly remember people weighing out how "oh, but I want more FPA's and MPA's and Gnerls" and realizing that for an extra $20 or $40 they could get a whole extra BC, giving them what they wanted and another pile of figures on top of that.
The value found was part of the draw at that price point. Declaring a pair of VT's to be worth $40 doesn't mean a BC contains $180 worth of VT's alone.
To avoid the obvious "no gak shirlock" that comes to mind with the Tool comment....I appreaciate that sooo much. I did MSRP because anything less can vary. Basically I got everything 25% off the retail which likely what I would have gotten anyways if I had purchased on MM or CSI or many others. So the point is that even if PB screws the pooch I've gotten my moneys worth. Not what I honestly hope for but not bad either. If PB dies my main worry will be how I can get the stuff that they were never able to provide. I'm working my own ways on that just in case. I can join the lawsuit train and hope for $100 or something back but I think that highly unlikely. I think I'm more likely to get what I want by waiting in PB or going to my own sources. Rick already has Hovertanks and Bioroids. Others have Invid. I have some Invid and Cyclones.....the work goes on.
If I had done a sale price that could be argued. I could have also increased the prices because by the time wave two shows up what would have been a $36 pack of YF-4's might likely be $40 or more.
It has all with being practical. I'm not the only one that thinks this way.
Lawsuit = Zip
Patience = Very small chance of at least part of wave 2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now that deal might look even worse if PB does in fact die and we start seeing more stuff on 50% or more sales.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Regardless of how they count things, I'm out at least $40 bucks for my MAC-II. No MAC-II? Then I want my $40 back.
Same here. Although it'd make me much happier if EVERYTHING was delivered, I'm only willing to be charitable in agreeing that "Wave One" was the delivery of the boxed game set. The add-ons I paid separately for in the backer kit, if they can't deliver I want that money back. For me, that's a MAC-II and some additional Wave Two add-ons of around $100 overall.
And in case anyone here hasn't been visiting the kickstarter site, I filed with the AG a couple of days ago. Still waiting for a response at this time.
Ironic that the real "CRISIS OF TREACHERY" now appears to maybe allegedly be the one that Kevin and PB are perpetrating on on the backers?
I agree with the statement earlier though - PB will do WHATEVER it takes to deliver this KS because they think that KS will be a source of easy money to tap for years to come.
Of course IF this campaign does fulfill (and I hope it does!), well, anyone who backs the next one...
Alpharius wrote: Ironic that the real "CRISIS OF TREACHERY" now appears to maybe allegedly be the one that Kevin and PB are perpetrating on on the backers?
That's quite funny. We'll never know, unless a lawsuit brings any malfeasance to the light. Until then, KevCo will continue to either buck pass, or refuse to admit anything is wrong.
Alpharius wrote: I agree with the statement earlier though - PB will do WHATEVER it takes to deliver this KS because they think that KS will be a source of easy money to tap for years to come.
Agree they'll do whatever it takes. Disagree with the reasoning. I think it's more than likely that PB have seen the writing on the wall, that this game has no real future (the excess stocks, the lack of sales, the online reputation). The only reason I can see them doing what it takes to complete their obligations, is the potential cost of failure. Bankruptcy, and the destruction of, and selling off of Kevin's legacy. That's what he'd be fighting to prevent.
I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.
Alpharius wrote: Of course IF this campaign does fulfill (and I hope it does!), well, anyone who backs the next one...
If Palladium ever did another Kickstarter, it'd definitely go a long way to cementing "incompetent" in the current incompetent/lazy/fraudulent dynamic that I still find too hard to judge. There's no way a future Kickstarter isn't going to make the Robotech Acadamy campaign look like a pleasant experience. That's not to say a privately run one (like Northern Gear) won't succeed, as they'll have a much stronger ability to control message and tone, but even then I think there'd be some that'd balk about putting money up in exchange for a promise.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.
funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.
funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.
And what way out it that? Cause I don't think issuing refunds for those that want it*, would work. First, I don't think they have enough liquid assets to cover the immediate requests. But even if they did, that's money that's removed from making Wave 2, making the chances of that happening smaller. Meaning more people wanting refunds. Meaning less resources to complete Wave 2. Meaning more refunds. And it snowballing into bankruptcy.
* I don't think the number of people currently wanting refunds is a majority of backers. But I do think it's much more than the couple of dozen that PB and it's defenders claim it is. If it IS only a couple dozen, and PB have let this fester over a rounding error in their Kickstarter funding, then they're even bigger incompetents than I ever imagined.
If that's not what you're thinking, feel free to share.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.
funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.
And what way out it that? Cause I don't think issuing refunds for those that want it*, would work. First, I don't think they have enough liquid assets to cover the immediate requests. But even if they did, that's money that's removed from making Wave 2, making the chances of that happening smaller. Meaning more people wanting refunds. Meaning less resources to complete Wave 2. Meaning more refunds. And it snowballing into bankruptcy.
* I don't think the number of people currently wanting refunds is a majority of backers. But I do think it's much more than the couple of dozen that PB and it's defenders claim it is. If it IS only a couple dozen, and PB have let this fester over a rounding error in their Kickstarter funding, then they're even bigger incompetents than I ever imagined.
If that's not what you're thinking, feel free to share.
never said anything about PB giving backers their money back, as to what their low cost escape clause is, not revealing since that would not work in my favor.
Agreed just keep whatever info to yourself and see how this plays out. We already know there's at least one poster here who would go crying to Kevin on what they can do.
Well the easiest low cost option escape hatch would be for a regulatory body to investigate them and offer a consent decree.
Most likely such an agreement would include some restitution, whether to everyone or on request, fines, investigation cost, and maybe an agreement to never kickstart again or the like. Even that could potentially reach 10-20% of the backing amount.
ThaneCawdor wrote: Well the easiest low cost option escape hatch would be for a regulatory body to investigate them and offer a consent decree.
Most likely such an agreement would include some restitution, whether to everyone or on request, fines, investigation cost, and maybe an agreement to never kickstart again or the like. Even that could potentially reach 10-20% of the backing amount.
that would not be an option considering the last KS to get fined got fined twice what they brought in on the kickstarter, and that was from only one state.
ThaneCawdor wrote: That was a court (default) judgement, versus a consent decree.
And i was proposing that as a best case scenario that would leave PB somewhat solvent
I can see that if suits brought against them, but if a states AG gets involved, they will be out for blood, and sadly if PB had the money they would have brought out wave 2 then.
they are bleeding money scrabbling for some way to come up with funds and going broke doing it.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think if PB were given a legal option of cancelling Wave 2, refunding what was left of the KS funds (if any), and being judgment proof against further charges (ie, everything else in the company remained intact), I don't doubt Kevin would take it in a second, public relations hit be damned.
funny thing is there is a way out for PB and one that might if not help their public relations at least not make it much worse, the problem is PB has no common sense or PR rep who could point out their escape clause option, which would have a drastically reduced cost attached to it.
If Kevin and PB attempt to defraud the KS backers, at that point, people will get out the pitchforks and likely start pushing for CRIMINAL prosecution that "pierces the corporate veil" and holds Kevin, his officers and his directors personally and severally liable.
He really doesn't want that.
That is the sort of "lose-lose" legal quagmire that will unquestionably bankrupt him, in addition to PB.
Not really, when dealing with reputable company's (for some definition of reputable) most regulatory bodies prefer to craft & gain a consent decree over litigation.
Quicker, cheaper, still fills their coffers and lets them claim they "did something"
Yes, really. Citizens can file criminal charges, too.
And their home state would have jurisdiction, because that's where Palladium took their money, and unlike a traditional business contract, venue is not specified. Kevin could be seeing separate lawsuits filed in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia.
And that's not to mention a battery of Small Claims. Literally a death of a thousand cuts.
Of course, if PB would just deliver Wave 2, rather than blowing smoke, all of this unpleasantness could be avoided.
Funny thing is if say the state of Hawaii, decided to file CPA violation charges against PB, PB would have to go to the state of Hawaii to fight them or get a lawyer there to fight the charges, or do a no show and get judgement against them, so any state's AG files charges PB has to go to those states, so if anything this could rack up PB's airline miles.
The easiest answer, by the way I see it, for PB to walk away without much recourse would be to fess up "omg we're out of funding to produce wave two" and then ship backers another core box for each battle cry.
We're owed 27 figures per, that's 37 figures per, plus dice, and tokens, and a rule book!
They'd still need to attend to add ons, but this would be a way to turn piles of core boxes sitting around the office into a solution for their obligations.
I imagine it'd probably require some cores to be made (they'd need like 7 or 8 thousand, I doubt they have near that much on hand), but they wouldn't need to pay for new molds, just "hey, those things we ordered? Fire up another print run!"
Yes, obviously if they are literally flat broke, this is no more realistic a solution than completing wave two. But if they're not, if they're short on cash but not running on empty, this would be a way to meet their obligations to backers ("See! They were owed 97 figures and they got 107! BAM!"), PLUS needing to address add ons (which wouldn't be cheap).
It's not perfect, it's not ideal, it may not be realistic (No Rick, don't bother correcting me at length, I don't care, I'm merely presenting opinion from what I've read, not a dissertation that requires notes about needing to see you after class), but it COULD be PART of a POTENTIAL solution, ASSUMING they're NOT flat broke.
If they're broke nobody is getting anything other than perhaps some sense of justice/revenge if their doors actually do have to close sometime in the coming months (though we all know that they'll limp along for years on meager book sales and Fan Friends buying grab bags for years).
That aside, here's a fun fact; as of the time I pulled the information, there were 108 backers located in Michigan. Yes, out of state stuff is awful, but having people in your backyard, that's a whole other issue in removing a potential barrier to those people going through the appropriate channels.
Of course, everything you've listed there requires at least some sort of basic self-awareness. We have yet to see any evidence of that in PB or KS, whatsoever.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Exactly so. Even if it's 2 or 3 AGs outside of Michigan, it's bad news.
And Small Claims are the same issue. Actually, it's worse, because it's every county.
Also, Cali has some fantastically good law which favors the locals over out-of-state Internet sellers who don't pay CA taxes.
Yeah, and there is enough water in Lake Michigan to drown every single person in the country... but that doesn't mean we're at risk. IIRC you have to serve the defendant for small claims in your own state (which means palladium first has to come to YOU) and that assumes that you have folks in every state willing to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: The easiest answer, by the way I see it, for PB to walk away without much recourse would be to fess up "omg we're out of funding to produce wave two" and then ship backers another core box for each battle cry.
We're owed 27 figures per, that's 37 figures per, plus dice, and tokens, and a rule book!
They'd still need to attend to add ons, but this would be a way to turn piles of core boxes sitting around the office into a solution for their obligations.
They could also as an alternative offer folks who just want to settle up right now instead of waiting that option. I probably wouldn't take it (I'm having enough trouble selling my existing NOS stuff right now locally) and I definitely don't need more of the same but it might be a preferable option for some and at least show some willingness on the part of palladium to work with the backers they've ignored and broken so many promises to.
That aside, here's a fun fact; as of the time I pulled the information, there were 108 backers located in Michigan. Yes, out of state stuff is awful, but having people in your backyard, that's a whole other issue in removing a potential barrier to those people going through the appropriate channels.
From what I saw in the comments when I used to follow them (admittedly a while ago), the Michigan backers are some of the most supportive. Most of the fanfriends who help with shipping and packing were likely from Michigan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Merijeek wrote: Of course, everything you've listed there requires at least some sort of basic self-awareness. We have yet to see any evidence of that in PB or KS, whatsoever.
They'll eventually use it as an excuse to not further communicate on the advice of their lawyers... that's my guess. It's just following the form of Palladium having enough time to respond to Rick's BBB complaint but not to bother updating 5,000+ backers for almost a month even with one of their content-freeTM updates.
n815e wrote: Mike, are you being disheartened from lack of information or do you have some inside perspective on things that have made you feel less confident?
A bit of both. I have not heard a word of wave 2. I also do have some inside information but nothing Earth Shattering. Things are moving forward just I'm just not in on the pace. I've also given PB other materials that they have been looking at using for the conventional stuff and it is frustrating to have to hear answers back months later and not directly from PB. So I'm a bit frustrated and I also just want to play. So I'm focusing on my last semester of school and then seeing how the chips continue falling before making more drastic decisions.
Also, and this is my opinion, some just want to see PB burn to satisfy their need to "Justice" or "Revenge". I see that as honestly stupid and that lawsuits are likely to kill any chance at wave 2, however small others seem to believe. With the movie there are some that think that someone else will pick this up and drive it forward. They could be right. But once Hollywood has their claws on Robotech do you think anything will be the same? We will have something different for every mecha from Veritechs to Battlepods and we all know what the Transformers movies did for that franchise.
1. Hope PB can pull things off, maybe even help a bit and cross my fingers.
2. Sue and get nothing and be pissed off all the time
3. Sue and hope someone else picks up RRT and see it turned into something totally different. If this happens also note all the money you put into the KS will have gone for nothing and you will have to start over, likely at square one and probably pay retail or retail sales prices for it all. If RRT is revamped there is no way we are getting anything in any way or shape for even close to what we are getting now.
Am I missing any options here?
Some see option 1 as dumb. Others see option 2 as the best. Others see option 3 as great too.
Forar wrote: The easiest answer, by the way I see it, for PB to walk away without much recourse would be to fess up "omg we're out of funding to produce wave two" and then ship backers another core box for each battle cry.
We're owed 27 figures per, that's 37 figures per, plus dice, and tokens, and a rule book!
They'd still need to attend to add ons, but this would be a way to turn piles of core boxes sitting around the office into a solution for their obligations.
I imagine it'd probably require some cores to be made (they'd need like 7 or 8 thousand, I doubt they have near that much on hand), but they wouldn't need to pay for new molds, just "hey, those things we ordered? Fire up another print run!"
Yes, obviously if they are literally flat broke, this is no more realistic a solution than completing wave two. But if they're not, if they're short on cash but not running on empty, this would be a way to meet their obligations to backers ("See! They were owed 97 figures and they got 107! BAM!"), PLUS needing to address add ons (which wouldn't be cheap).
It's not perfect, it's not ideal, it may not be realistic (No Rick, don't bother correcting me at length, I don't care, I'm merely presenting opinion from what I've read, not a dissertation that requires notes about needing to see you after class), but it COULD be PART of a POTENTIAL solution, ASSUMING they're NOT flat broke.
If they're broke nobody is getting anything other than perhaps some sense of justice/revenge if their doors actually do have to close sometime in the coming months (though we all know that they'll limp along for years on meager book sales and Fan Friends buying grab bags for years).
That aside, here's a fun fact; as of the time I pulled the information, there were 108 backers located in Michigan. Yes, out of state stuff is awful, but having people in your backyard, that's a whole other issue in removing a potential barrier to those people going through the appropriate channels.
all in all it does sound good Forar, one problem PB will never fess up to anything. also your thinking small on your solution, your close to the right track, but your adding in extra uneeded costs and forgetting a bigger aspect available.
n815e wrote: Mike, are you being disheartened from lack of information or do you have some inside perspective on things that have made you feel less confident?
A bit of both. I have not heard a word of wave 2. I also do have some inside information but nothing Earth Shattering. Things are moving forward just I'm just not in on the pace. I've also given PB other materials that they have been looking at using for the conventional stuff and it is frustrating to have to hear answers back months later and not directly from PB. So I'm a bit frustrated and I also just want to play. So I'm focusing on my last semester of school and then seeing how the chips continue falling before making more drastic decisions.
Also, and this is my opinion, some just want to see PB burn to satisfy their need to "Justice" or "Revenge". I see that as honestly stupid and that lawsuits are likely to kill any chance at wave 2, however small others seem to believe. With the movie there are some that think that someone else will pick this up and drive it forward. They could be right. But once Hollywood has their claws on Robotech do you think anything will be the same? We will have something different for every mecha from Veritechs to Battlepods and we all know what the Transformers movies did for that franchise.
1. Hope PB can pull things off, maybe even help a bit and cross my fingers.
2. Sue and get nothing and be pissed off all the time
3. Sue and hope someone else picks up RRT and see it turned into something totally different. If this happens also note all the money you put into the KS will have gone for nothing and you will have to start over, likely at square one and probably pay retail or retail sales prices for it all. If RRT is revamped there is no way we are getting anything in any way or shape for even close to what we are getting now.
Am I missing any options here?
Some see option 1 as dumb. Others see option 2 as the best. Others see option 3 as great too.
1: I don't work for PB I am a customer, last time I checked a customer does not have to create his product in order to get it.
2: a lawsuit will get me my money back
3: actually wouldn't be surprised if we get pretty much the same stuff, remember they are going off of the HG brand and how they stick to details.
or option 4 anything is better then having Palladium around, furthermore it will be a lesson to the kickstarter community that businesses can't get away with our money for over 2 years with very little information.
Mike you keep doing things in black and white and forget there are all kinds of shades of grey in between, while a lawsuit is fine and dany it will not have the effect you think it does, it will be a minor blip, the parts that will hurt PB is things like AG interaction and or the FTC too and such, that is what will destroy PB, and that can only happen if PB broke the law, so all I hear from you is you advocate PB breaking the law in hopes you get something.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Exactly so. Even if it's 2 or 3 AGs outside of Michigan, it's bad news.
And Small Claims are the same issue. Actually, it's worse, because it's every county.
Also, Cali has some fantastically good law which favors the locals over out-of-state Internet sellers who don't pay CA taxes.
Yeah, and there is enough water in Lake Michigan to drown every single person in the country... but that doesn't mean we're at risk. IIRC you have to serve the defendant for small claims in your own state (which means palladium first has to come to YOU) and that assumes that you have folks in every state willing to do so.
Nope. You can send the letter Registered Mail to their official business address in the state in which they are incorporated. If Palladium is a real company, that is sufficient. They don't have to respond, and as a backer trying to get my money back, I don't care if they do. Actually, I prefer that they don't. I can walk up to the Judge with paperwork in hand showing that I sent Registered Mail to their official business address of incorporation, and that they failed to respond within the given timeframe. Default Judgement in 5 minutes.
Then, I can start to collect, and that's where it gets interesting. They can pay me, or they can spend more to appeal. If they choose not to respond, I can always send a Collections Agency after them - that Default Judgement is absolute proof of an actual debt owed. Can you imagine the fun of a hundred debt collectors calling Palladium and hounding Kevin?
3: actually wouldn't be surprised if we get pretty much the same stuff, remember they are going off of the HG brand and how they stick to details.
or option 4 anything is better then having Palladium around, furthermore it will be a lesson to the kickstarter community that businesses can't get away with our money for over 2 years with very little information.
Once again, your predictions are wonderfully off.
HG has already confirmed that the mecha designs are going to change.
HG has already made it clear that they are happy with their relationship with PB.
HG cares about us as much as PB does.
We have kept all of our Kickstarter Backers informed as to the progress of this project
Not lately you haven't. More on that in a bit.
There was never an exact release date
There has always been a target. Missing a 7 month window by a few months is one thing. Being at 27 months without an end in sight is a wee bit more than a mere 'oops'. When one is at 400% of the estimate and climbing, they done fethed up. They can call it 'just an estimate' all they like, at this point we can safely say that nobody had any idea what was involved here when they made it. It was clearly chosen as an overly optimistic "perfect case scenario" (not just best case) with zero room for contingencies.
And then Kevin himself doubled down on an early delivery the day after it funded. Good job!
Money was taken on that premise, with reassurances that production would begin soon (the infamous "within 45 days of the campaign ending" quote). If they'd said "this might take an extra year or two", I definitely wouldn't have contributed as heavily, nor kicked them further money during the pledge manager period.
Awfully convenient that the confidence they felt regarding the delivery window only shifted after they stopped getting money from us...
We have posted 14 updates in the last six months
Yeah, most of them about a scale discussion/misdirection, and 'please buy more of our stuff!!! Please!?!'
Kickstarter is not a store, and their fund-raising campaigns are not sales nor mechanisms for taking pre-orders.
Uh huh. What about Backerkit? Because that was awfully clear on the "give me $40 and I'll send you this fancy MAC-II". (shout out to my man JHDD)
*MSRP stuff*
This seems like dangerous ground to be upon. If it works, great. If it doesn't, they've just admitted to owing people a LOT of money/product. Plays well with the 'we totes shipped him his moneys worth!', does not play well with 'okay and we kind of owe him like $300 more worth of stuff.. which doesn't exist...'
87 updates in 27 months
Uh huh, and how many of them contained substantial information about production? Since Wave 1 delivered, that answer is "One", at least off the top of my head.
There have been 14 updates in the last seven months alone, one of them showing multiple pictures
This, ladies and gentlemen, is flagrant 'lying with statistics'. Yes, in the most literal sense, it is technically correct without accurately conveying context that of those 14 updates, the FIRST one had the detailed info, and the following 13 were a clusterfeth of rambling history lessons, vague promises, and begging for money. Not to mention that the 'weekly PB updates' they mention are generally just a copy/paste of info from the update. Posting the same thing twice does not equal posting twice as much about it. They themselves stated during the Open House time about how much they wanted to make sure the Backers heard info first in an Update.
Mr. Steinberg's claim that we have "... remained silent on when other product will be delivered or even where they are at in production of other product other than to say 'soon'" is absolutely untrue.
Okay here's where Forar's patience wears thin. Go feth yourselves. It is absolutely true. Show ONE update in those 14 other than the Feb 28th one that has detailed information about wave two. Not "it's coming", not "it's being worked on", actual info. "We're totally going to have a conference call you gusy!!" is not an update. How much tangible info can they show regarding wave two development in those last 14 months? Spoiler alert; not fething much.
Oh, and then we establish that Rick is a mastermind ringleader. Good for him!
Here's another point where they aren't helping their own case;
Then on June 9th, we posted "As for Wave 2, I'm working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is at in its development, but that's going to take some time."
That was ten fething weeks ago.
They also neglect to mention that despite the last 14 months between Wave 1 going to production and now, they have... 5 sprue breakdowns to show off, and nothing new in the last half year.
Wow. If this is the level of discourse they're raising in their defense... wow. This is going to get really interesting.
Mr. Steinberg's claim that we have "... remained silent on when other product will be delivered or even where they are at in production of other product other than to say 'soon'" is absolutely untrue.
Kevin is not actually lying when he disputes Steinberg's claim, but that's only because PB has stopped saying "soon". They've stopped saying anything of substance at all.
The correct follow-up response to Kevin here is to ask:
- If not the indefinite "soon", then definitely when the feth will the product be delivered?
We don't want bullgak about how you claim to be working on Wave 2. We want to see photographs of actual product, and we want actual ship dates. Names of ships that we can track to port.
No 'facepalming' allowed after you edited it - it *was* his to begin with!
Asterios wrote:ahhh you changed it
ooh Kevin better be careful since he is skating the dge of breaking certain Michigan state laws.
in fact hope he gives that excuse to the Michigan States AG or my AG even.
Glad I wasn't imagining that!
Vash108 wrote: Man after reading all this I am glad I did not kick this. I was so close to dropping a couple hundred and had my finger hovering over the button.
I really would like to see this completed, I am still a big fan of Robotech.
I too only *just* dodged this particular bullet too.
I am a fan of the genre and scale, but I was always more into the Giant Robots vs. Alien Invaders Who Also Have Giant Robots genre - Getter Robo, Gaiking, Grendizer, etc.
I was hoping this one would give me a solid base to work from in terms of that type of gaming in this scale.
I somehow resisted pledging.
Probably due to some other Kickstarter (that is now also really late) catching my eye...?
Vash108 wrote: Man after reading all this I am glad I did not kick this. I was so close to dropping a couple hundred and had my finger hovering over the button.
I really would like to see this completed, I am still a big fan of Robotech.
I too only *just* dodged this particular bullet too.
I am a fan of the genre and scale, but I was always more into the Giant Robots vs. Alien Invaders Who Also Have Giant Robots genre - Getter Robo, Gaiking, Grendizer, etc.
I was hoping this one would give me a solid base to work from in terms of that type of gaming in this scale.
I somehow resisted pledging.
Probably due to some other Kickstarter (that is now also really late) catching my eye...?
I also kicked that other one, that comes in a nice big black box, which is also late.
I loved the Giant Robot genre as I grew up in the 80's. Voltron, Gundam, Robotech and Tranzor Z (Mazinger Z in Japan).
JohnHwangDD wrote: I should have just bought a higher-end MAC-II model kit or big Valk toy and called it a day.
I had previously acquired a trio of Monsters prior to the RRT kickstarter. I was using MW-AoD rules and using N scale gashopons so the N scale plastic and N scale resin MACs I had were perfect. The scale isn't right for RRT, but I've got at least something to use when playing the game.
How does this all work for Canadians I wonder?
I want some of this action to at least irritate PB into looking the facts up and wasting Kevin's time with a signature.
I can assure you all the letter will make the claim "exaggeration" a little harder to state.
The improvements will be made on the backs of those who came before me of course!
hmm just checked out that topic and don't see it lasting to long.
but will say this if Kevin doesn't do anything this is going to snowball out of control and he may be facing lots of court time. (not from lawsuits but from AG's of various states and such.
You were the first person to reply to that thread.
>.<
not me but a buddy of mine in Texas who was one of the ones who got me in this project, as to me I was banned a wee bit ago.
and yes we both use the name Asterios on various forums, its an inside joke and such.
PS: evidently you were not the only one, he just told me he got banned from forums as a duplicate of my account and he can't even see the forums cause his IP was blocked.
So would I be a bad person and had "properly" filled out a BBB complaint form and submitted it?
Let the giggles begin. I am rather proud of myself, I found a "reasonable" way to draw the line of where I want my money to come out that is... fair.
Will be of interest to see the response.
I think then, if it is a big "no", then I go for credit card refund.
At least the BBB complaint will explain things a wee bit better to them.
I see the shining path before me... preferably without litigation but getting my money... to a point.
On the outside chance that a small miracle happens and wave 2 ships, it may be mistakenly shipped to Australia or have spit in it.
I did not bother to try to claim any portion of the "rewards" just the added kits ordered after being funded.
It seemed like a logical divide and distances the "funding the project" argument.
Will let you know how it goes.
Anyone want to place odds on there being some kind of passive/aggressive response in the next PBWU about wishing they could give the backers more information, but they've had to spend time dealing with "frivilous legal matters" or some such?
While it seems the last couple of BBB responses have been mostly cut and paste (SHOCKER!), there's still checking the database, the math calculations (of how much was sent, how much was owed) and signature. Given the rate at which PB tend to work, those three requests are probably a pretty big chunk of Kevin's day.
Cyporiean wrote: Does the BBB have any sort of actual ability to do anything?
no, filing with the BBB is a sort of check on a list to show evidence all avenues opened up to me have been done to reconcile this matter, just like I asked PB for a refund and so forth.
Morgan Vening wrote: Anyone want to place odds on there being some kind of passive/aggressive response in the next PBWU about wishing they could give the backers more information, but they've had to spend time dealing with "frivilous legal matters" or some such?
While it seems the last couple of BBB responses have been mostly cut and paste (SHOCKER!), there's still checking the database, the math calculations (of how much was sent, how much was owed) and signature. Given the rate at which PB tend to work, those three requests are probably a pretty big chunk of Kevin's day.
Cyporiean wrote: Does the BBB have any sort of actual ability to do anything?
The BBB doesn't have any authority or investigative power, they just pass the complaint to PB and the response to the consumer.
The real reason to file a BBB complaint is that regulatory bodies do monitor BBB complaints to determine their actions.
Man oh man, we are working on so many different things. In addition to Robotech® RPG Tactics™ materials, there are several new Rifts® and Splicers® titles in the works as well as several other things and some surprises. Our imaginations are on fire and we are motived to get all kinds of products into your hands. Good stuff is coming this Fall.
They're working on so many different things? But have nothing to show for Robotech? Yet it's magically coming this Fall (Sep 23 to Dec 21)? Excuse me if I don't hold my breath.
____
@stan - in that thrillingly informative sentence, there is a TM and 2 (R)s. It's Kevin!
Closing thoughts Man oh man, we are working on so many different things. In addition to Robotech® RPG Tactics™ materials, there are several new Rifts® and Splicers® titles in the works as well as several other things and some surprises. Our imaginations are on fire and we are motived to get all kinds of products into your hands. Good stuff is coming this Fall.
They're working on so many different things? But have nothing to show for Robotech? Yet it's magically coming this Fall (Sep 23 to Dec 21)? Excuse me if I don't hold my breath.
____
@stan - in that thrillingly informative sentence, there is a TM and 2 (R)s. It's Kevin!
Three (R)'s. Remember, Robotech Tactics gets both.
And to be fair, the "Good stuff is coming this Fall" doesn't necessarily mean RRT. It's two completely different statements, one talking about what's being worked on, and one talking about what'll get into your hands. If you're conflating those two, well... that's your fault. You obviously didn't "get" the subtext. Can't blame Kevin for that. Can't blame Teflon Kev for anything.
Simply adding a TM to Mike's convention unit rules or putting RRPGT on a pencil for sale would satisfy a boast of "working" on Robotech RPG Tactics judging from the BBB complaint responses. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what most of us want which is wave 2. The standard is very low with regards to palladium and somehow they convince themselves it needs to be lower as each month passes.
Miniature Market has the same packs at the same discount.
Perhaps those are low sellers or in overstock, or maybe they're just discounted to try to take advantage of the RDF sale that happened last weekend. Yes, I'm aware that there was a Zentraedi sale before it.
When they knock the entire line down to 50% again and it isn't some Black Friday thing, I'd be more inclined to call it a fire sale.
So, confirmed complaint sent to Palladium Books from the BBB.
It is like borders do not exist!
I cannot wait to see how the great spin-doctor replies to this one.
My request is sufficiently different I think the good-old copy-paste will not suffice.
I wonder if they will resort to personal attacks or hold postings on the kickstarter against me?
My new "hobby" of playing "get my money back" from PB is underway.
Hey! Any of you out there that got your letter back from PB have not got back to the BBB of your "satisfaction" with the response.
The details of the complaint cannot be displayed until some feedback is given so it makes the exercise rather fruitless.
http://www.bbb.org/detroit/business-reviews/books-new/palladium-books-inc-in-westland-mi-13022151/complaints 3 complaints only? Really? Took 5 minutes tops to lodge the complaint, this is a nice way to publically shame these guys.
I guess there is not much to get angry over but they are not entitled to my money so this is a good start.
In regards to Mike's concern of litigation and possibly killing any further RRT development, I think this is the more "humane" way to start out and if they want to be turkeys about it, then escalation is the only logical response.
I will be interested to see after my request for refund is denied (place your bets?!) if Visa will be agreeable.
The only difficulty is "I think" PB did not charge directly, I have to review the charge on my bill and see who it was from (backer kit showed day and amount charged).
Talizvar wrote: I will be interested to see after my request for refund is denied (place your bets?!) if Visa will be agreeable.
The only difficulty is "I think" PB did not charge directly, I have to review the charge on my bill and see who it was from (backer kit showed day and amount charged).
Chance of getting a refund from PB < chance of winning lottery. Without buying a ticket.
Chance of getting a refund through CC < Not much better.
Even if the CC did charge PB directly, it's been two years. I doubt most credit cards have a latency period that long. I believe last time people started doing it in significant numbers, 180 days was the typical limit. I believe one backer said he got his past that, but it wasn't a common occurrence by any means. The two big factors are gonna be how much you're owed, and how much the issuing bank are willing to eat to keep you happy as a customer (as they'll probably just write it off as a loss rather than attempt to recoup it). If the latter exceeds the former, you MIGHT get a chargeback.
Something that caught my eye from the update is that the battlefoam bags are still available. I know during the KS they said they'd make extra beyond what backers had bought but I'm not sure just how many. A few dozen comes to mind but I couldn't find the actual reference to the amount Palladium mentioned. I am pretty sure that it was less than a hundred though... and a year later they're still in stock and available. Unless I'm totally off on the numbers, that likely isn't a good sign.
Yeah, when the matter came up (and a chargeback has come up a few times these past years) I did some research. Many cards have a 3-6 month limit on chargebacks. Some people went well beyond that and after having a conversation with their CC company on the phone, still managed to get their money back, but it's not a universal. Probably boils down to how convincing you can be, the company's non-public policies, history with the card, who you speak to, how good a day they're having, etc.
Totally worth investigating for those who are seeking out all possible methods of recourse, but I wouldn't hold my breath after this long.
Mike1975 wrote: 1. Hope PB can pull things off, maybe even help a bit and cross my fingers.
2. Sue and get nothing and be pissed off all the time
3. Sue and hope someone else picks up RRT and see it turned into something totally different. If this happens also note all the money you put into the KS will have gone for nothing and you will have to start over, likely at square one and probably pay retail or retail sales prices for it all. If RRT is revamped there is no way we are getting anything in any way or shape for even close to what we are getting now.
Am I missing any options here?
4. Pursue methods of recourse up to and including credible risk of litigation and PB does the smart thing and just hands over a reasonable sum (Add Ons + $ per battle cry).
There's no reason this has to end up like some bad Hollywood legal drama. The cost in time, manpower, and other resources dealing with these challenges simply has to be worth more than simply kicking people $100 to feth off (or whatever amount it might be).
Not to mention the manner in which these frustrated people can compound upon themselves. A handful of refunds could have a disproportionate effect (as in, more valuable than the value of the funds) in nipping some of the agitators in the bud.
Sure, I can see the counter argument of "oh noes, but what if people see refunds and make a 'bank run' on the offer! Hundreds of backers? Thousands!?" I guess that'd be pretty bad, and also funny as it'd fly right in the face of "oh it's just a few vocal haters, everyone loves this game!" that has been offered so very often.
I do find it incredible that rather than just update the backers, they've doubled down yet again and stopped saying anything at all about wave two. Not that I actually miss their weekly "Soon(tm)", but it's actively counter productive to their claims of ongoing work.
Ongoing work should bear *some* kind of fruit, especially on the scale of weeks, let alone months, let alone half a year.
The longer this goes on, the more plausible the 'they spent it all on wave 1 and now have no working capital' argument becomes.
Which isn't just poor management, it's an effective breach of contract- stretch goals and add-ons are rewards for the kickstarter that have to be fulfilled responsibly according to the terms set out.
According to palladium, as long as they devote 1 minute of every month to it then it is an ongoing project that they don't have to deliver until it's ready. They can take 1 year extra (ding! done), 2 years (ding! done), 5 years (on the way!), or even 10 years and that is what you agreed to because of the word "estimate". Given Palladium's history of rpg rules, it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't apply any common sense or reasonableness to their stance but instead take it to the absurd extreme. A normal person would consider that if you take 400% longer than your "estimate" then you have effectively not delivered and breached the contract but not Palladium!
Yeah, this has been a point of contention for me for some time.
If I tell my boss that I'll deliver a report in a week, and it takes a week and a half, I might get an eye roll out of it.
If I tell my boss that I'll deliver a report in a week, and it looks like it won't even be done after 4 weeks, that's a problem.
If that report was tied to a 1.4 million dollar product line, I'd probably be having a rather large problem followed by an exit interview with HR.
But no worries, I look forward to the same voices telling me in a year "it's only coming on 3 years late, be patient!" Because there is no end date, merely unflinching acceptance of when it's done, it's done. :-D
Sorry, Valve and Blizzard are the only companies that get that kind of carte blanche from me, and even then, the former could do to actually complete Episode 3 or Half Life 3 or whatever it is they are working on. >.<
Sorry, Valve and Blizzard are the only companies that get that kind of carte blanche from me, and even then, the former could do to actually complete Episode 3 or Half Life 3 or whatever it is they are working on. >.<
Valve and Blizzard didn't take your money for Half Life 3 and Warcraft 4 game and several dlc packs bundles several years ago and promise that they would be ready soon after. Once you take that nonrefundable money upfront and make promises, you don't get to play the "it's ready when it's ready" game without suffering the (largely impotent) consequences. Palladium is not applying any standard of reasonableness to their position.
Talizvar wrote: @ced1106: good spot, that is worth picking up!
So, confirmed complaint sent to Palladium Books from the BBB.
It is like borders do not exist!
I cannot wait to see how the great spin-doctor replies to this one.
My request is sufficiently different I think the good-old copy-paste will not suffice.
I wonder if they will resort to personal attacks or hold postings on the kickstarter against me?
My new "hobby" of playing "get my money back" from PB is underway.
Hey! Any of you out there that got your letter back from PB have not got back to the BBB of your "satisfaction" with the response.
The details of the complaint cannot be displayed until some feedback is given so it makes the exercise rather fruitless.
http://www.bbb.org/detroit/business-reviews/books-new/palladium-books-inc-in-westland-mi-13022151/complaints 3 complaints only? Really? Took 5 minutes tops to lodge the complaint, this is a nice way to publically shame these guys.
I guess there is not much to get angry over but they are not entitled to my money so this is a good start.
In regards to Mike's concern of litigation and possibly killing any further RRT development, I think this is the more "humane" way to start out and if they want to be turkeys about it, then escalation is the only logical response.
I will be interested to see after my request for refund is denied (place your bets?!) if Visa will be agreeable.
The only difficulty is "I think" PB did not charge directly, I have to review the charge on my bill and see who it was from (backer kit showed day and amount charged).
Actually I did respond and responded in an eloquent way here is my response:
Better Business Bureau:
I have reviewed the offer made by the business in reference to complaint ID 10752193, and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of why I am rejecting this offer appear below:
I Strongly Disagree with Mr. Siembieda's response to my assertations in Case # 10752193
Mr. Siembieda claims that he has kept the KickStarter backers informed as to the progress of the project and that he has posted 14 updates in the last 6 months, let us break down these updates shall we starting with update dated Feb. 10th of this year:
Mr. Siembieda speaks of 2 ships passing in the night in reference to international shipping of overseas orders of wave 1 items, no mention of wave 2 items.
Mr. Siembieda states they are working on wave 2, and yet nothing to show us for it other then their word that they are working on it, furthermore he goes on to tell us he will be working on some new models called convention exclusives and make them available to the backers to buy, in other words he is splitting time that should be spent on a project that his company was already paid for, for product so they can make more money on.
it was a big update that took up 2 updates to get it out, unfortunately, it told us nothing about wave 2 except for soon and how they expected and hope for it this year. this update gave us all kinds of background material for Palladium Books and such , and furthermore he goes on about not wanting to give a set date of delivery, the issue is not when the product will deliver, but what is being done on the product, other then being shown 5 renders this year on some of the missing models we have been shown nothing.
this update was about future generations and their size and had nothing to do with wave 2, other then this brief item "I’ll be posting more about this and other things (most important being Wave 2 of course) soon." at the end of the update.
A vote regarding the scale of future generations not having anything to do with wave 2 product in fact the poll heavily favored 6mm with information on wave 2 shortly behind.
pictures were shown of some Convention exclusive items which were done instead of wave 2 product by the lack of information of wave 2 and proof of the convention items, all that was mentioned of wave 2 was "As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly."
and yet nothing to show us, only what he says is being done.
he makes mention the chance of being able to order the convention exclusives have been extended.
no info on wave 2
Mr. Siembieda claims that we are not customers or pre-orders by dictation of KickStarter, but on the same coin KickStarter also tells Kickstarter pledge creators to obey current and local laws, and by current law we kickstarter backers are considered Consumers first and foremost and should be treated as consumers. because we gave money in good faith on the promise of receiving product back for said money.
the claim is not about when product will be delivered but if it will be delivered, we only have Mr. Siembieda's word for that with no evidence and/or proof to back up his claims, he "says" they are doing this and that, he "claims" this and that are done, and yet he has failed time and time again to produce any evidence of his claims.
My biggest worry is that Palladium Books and Mr. Siembieda are without the funds to complete said project and if that is the case there will be no complete wave 2 forth coming.
furthermore before this project happened I did not even know Palladium Books was still in business I remember when they did Robotech and TMNT and I always loved Robotech so when some friends told me of this project I jumped on.
It has been because of this project that I have considered Palladium Books and Kevin Siembieda loathsome to say the least, but that is my opinion and has been made such by the actions done in this project.
Well I have consistently been surprised in my life that as long as you are persistent and maintain the persona of being a reasonable person, there are few things barred to you.
I want the BBB thing to work it's process through and then the CC route I think would be fine.
They like us, they got a little money out of us from time to time but we always keep it paid-off and we had a couple "double-payment" issues we ironed out ok so I could see this going somewhere. Any thoughts on what PB's credit history looks like? I bet mine is better.
It is rather small for a collection's agency route but could be worth looking at for giggles: I have worked with our collections department at work a fair bit and it is silly-easy to arrange and some loss of money on my end but worth it for closure.
See, if you have been wronged and made someone or a business your "hobby" you can do a public service by demonstrating to others the ease which you can make their lives uncomfortable legally. It is just a matter of time, research and the perceived "payback" you are willing to accept.
I typically see civil law legal matters as a weapon of mutual destruction: only the lawyers win.
Anyway, not as riveting as an "army painting blog" but an interesting process all the same I never really expected to be doing.
For those folks who file complaints with BBB, it's probably better if you file the initial complaint as well as the responses with a non-gamer in mind since that is likely who will be reading it. Rick, you mention things like "generations" and "TMNT" in your response that is likely geekgobbledygook to most folks reading it outside of dakkadakka or the KS comments. It's probably better to refer to the updates about scale change as "the next project in the product line". I realize that the BBB bureau has no teeth but if you do get the attention of the AG then it is better if you word everything in terms that a layman in the jury pool can understand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, from the link Forar provided, I'm not sure why you guys aren't filing it under "delivery issues"; isn't that the most appropriate since they're not delivering? Or are you guys considering the nondelivery trivial after two years delay but the 6 months of worthless "communication" the bigger issue?
warboss wrote: For those folks who file complaints with BBB, it's probably better if you file the initial complaint as well as the responses with a non-gamer in mind since that is likely who will be reading it. Rick, you mention things like "generations" and "TMNT" in your response that is likely geekgobbledygook to most folks reading it outside of dakkadakka or the KS comments. It's probably better to refer to the updates about scale change as "the next project in the product line". I realize that the BBB bureau has no teeth but if you do get the attention of the AG then it is better if you word everything in terms that a layman in the jury pool can understand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, from the link Forar provided, I'm not sure why you guys aren't filing it under "delivery issues"; isn't that the most appropriate since they're not delivering? Or are you guys considering the nondelivery trivial after two years delay but the 6 months of worthless "communication" the bigger issue?
well that was to get them to read the links in the generations 8^P as to TMNT not many people out there who don't know who that is.
as to non delivery that is subjective, even though Kevin's response was all in that direction.
now the real question is, who is Palladiums behind the scenes benefactor?
Every time I read something from Kevin, I get the impression of someone who thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are. It's so easy to see the attempts at obfuscation and weasel words.
It's a lot like watching a bad murder mystery where you spot the killer out 60 seconds in. At least make it hard to detect the BS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That, or he just doesn't care.
Kevin's too obvious as the supervillian. He's more the bumbling villain type (like most Scooby Doo villains, damn meddlesome kids). If this were a major TV plot there'd be a twist (like Palladium actually being backed by crab people).
I personally don't expect to ever see wave 2. I think it's self evident at this point that Palladium Books is the keystone cops of game publishers and I should have known better than to back any project they were connected with. It's too bad because some of my favorite mecha designs are in wave 2, but at this point it's pretty obvious that this game is dead.
warboss wrote: Also, from the link Forar provided, I'm not sure why you guys aren't filing it under "delivery issues"; isn't that the most appropriate since they're not delivering? Or are you guys considering the nondelivery trivial after two years delay but the 6 months of worthless "communication" the bigger issue?
I had listed it as "delivery issues" the BBB changed it.
I suspect they look at it as a problem with the product by not receiving it, not being made / available not a specific problem with the process of shipping it to us.
My claim is more on the grounds that specific product was ordered some-what outside the backing/rewards element and it looks like that product is not forthcoming.
It would be interesting and relevant to PB if I placed a pre-order, what would be a reasonable interval until I decide the product is not coming and seek refund?
I NEVER pre-order anything now because I have seen zero benefit from that and all the risk.
Hence the kickstarter fallacy of many people say you are not "owed" anything.
So if it is within a creator's ability to produce the product agreed and they do not feel like it or find it inconvenient, I am expected to suck it up?
This means of free money as demonstrated has ensured that not a single kickstarter would see my money because KS are taking zero ownership of a flawed product.
They can respectfully get lost in that regard.
I design process systems, they take work, thought, consideration of feedback, PB and KS have one behavior in common: they do what they want despite the call for change.
CaulynDarr wrote: Every time I read something from Kevin, I get the impression of someone who thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are. It's so easy to see the attempts at obfuscation and weasel words.
It's a lot like watching a bad murder mystery where you spot the killer out 60 seconds in. At least make it hard to detect the BS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That, or he just doesn't care.
Or he's used to surrounding himself with even dumber people. So he's used to being the smartest mongoloid in the room.
CaulynDarr wrote: Every time I read something from Kevin, I get the impression of someone who thinks they're a lot smarter than they actually are. It's so easy to see the attempts at obfuscation and weasel words.
It's a lot like watching a bad murder mystery where you spot the killer out 60 seconds in. At least make it hard to detect the BS.
That, or he just doesn't care.
Or he's used to surrounding himself with even dumber people. So he's used to being the smartest mongoloid in the room.
Typically it is the "Emperor has no clothes" condition.
Yeah, the boss is wrong, but are you going to tell him? Good luck! Can I have your desk when you are gone?
Sorry, Valve and Blizzard are the only companies that get that kind of carte blanche from me, and even then, the former could do to actually complete Episode 3 or Half Life 3 or whatever it is they are working on. >.<
Valve and Blizzard didn't take your money for Half Life 3 and Warcraft 4 game and several dlc packs bundles several years ago and promise that they would be ready soon after. Once you take that nonrefundable money upfront and make promises, you don't get to play the "it's ready when it's ready" game without suffering the (largely impotent) consequences. Palladium is not applying any standard of reasonableness to their position.
A fair point I hadn't overlooked. Merely commenting on their approach to delivering in general.
To make a more direct comparison, if Valve announced that Episode 3 would be available in 2 months, and due to massive issues they had to delay it a month, I'd be annoyed but wouldn't be flipping my gak, especially if they outlined, in detail, what that extra time was necessary for.
If they proceeded to take another half a year, it might be another story (and based on their stance on refunds, I'd be permitted to do this easily, within certain parameters.
But agreed, when someone says they'll keep you in the loop after taking your money, and then doesn't keep you in the loop, all your left with is that they've taken your money.
FWIW, a number of video games have this kind of issue. Steam "Early Access" saw Devs take money, putter away, and (maybe) finish the game that people paid for. Until recently, there was no way to get money back if the Dev didn't deliver. It took a mob with pitchforks to force refunds.
IMO, at some point, KS is going to have to look at insuring refunds.
Agreed. KS is bringing enough money, I think we're just one catastrofeth away from some solid legislation.
It was one thing to play a bit fast and loose when most of the projects were getting a couple of grand for X or Y thing in someone's basement.
When companies are raking in millions of dollars, there needs to be more than a "maybe we'll do it when we get around to it" along with a wink.
Backers should be patient and understanding, but creators shouldn't have a blank cheque to piss it all away on escorts and blow before discovering that oh noes they can't quite complete the 2000 figures for $50 they'd promised, who could've foreseen this?!?
Edit: and here's some repeat material. Considering how often PB copy/pastes things, I regret nothing.
"Wave 2 the product is currently in tooling. Ninja John was over in China a while ago to check it out as well."
"We were over in China a while ago to make sure everything was lined up and good to go. Wave 2 is in the tooling process. :-)"
"(This is John), as the creative director and manager of this project with Palladium, Wave 2 product has been approved and received in China for months now. I am not privy to the tooling process at this exact moment, as Palladium is managing their end process for the 2nd wave - but all content has been delivered and reviewed and accepted for mold making for a while now. Now, what we can do, is try and prod our pals at Palladium and get a status update for the community for you all. Wave 1 has only recently been pushed out to backers and retailers, so I am sure more product is soon to follow. Thank you for your time reaching out to us, we are happy to answer any questions to the best of our ability."
"Sorry guys, I cant comment as to anything there - but I know some great looking models have been delivered (OMG wait till you see the armored Valks) - and its churning and burning as we speak. I have not seen physical copies or mold masters yet, I will ask. (-Ninja John)"
These are items that have been "in tooling" for "months" since the beginning of the year, which was nearly 9 months ago.
Taking that "monthS", plural, at face value, we're up around what, 10-11+ months that Ninja Division has said that they were done and things were in "tooling", whatever that means?
Yes, granted, the Giant History Of Palladium And How Ninja Division Betrayed Them And Are Evil Incarnate might change that up a bit, but let's not forget, we have heard directly from the people who did the work that these figures are done, and have been done for something approaching (or over) a year now.
Just to throw something out there for speculation, when I spoke to ND John at gencon last year (2014) he'd just gotten back from a visit to China, so if he's referencing that specific trip then items have "been in tooling" for well over a year. Now he could have made a more recent trip that he's referring to, but "several months" could be referring to 5+ months before the Jan statement (ie July 2014). Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if it were in fact a year (or longer) given how long of a lead time plastic projects take as every revision pushes thing back further in line and most injection molding companies are heavily booked so any minor delays/changes tend to result in the schedule slipping by several months rather than a few days or weeks. A lot of those companies are booked by quarterly blocks so if you miss a date due to changes you don't get another window for at least 3-4 months..
Welp, it looks like Forar's thread on the PBF regarding the BBB complaints didn't just get locked, but deleted. I didn't see what was said after the last post I wrote, as I've been at work for 15 hours (danged reliever with car problems, grumble grumble).
So I don't know if it was deleted based on it's general nature, or if the thread went off the rails, which wouldn't surprise me either. Last I checked, it was civil, though. And while I can understand not wanting the thread to stand, it does kinda reinforce the "we will censor everything that's not sunshine and rainbows" reputation those forums have.
KevCo must grit their teeth that the KS Comments and Dakka can't be kept in line in a similar manner.
It's gotten to the point that the faithful are panicking. Some are posting on FB that because of tricky Ricky and two (only two others) have single handidly killed rrt and PB.lol
That thread always had a halflife shorter than a meaningless freebie at gencon. I'm curious to see if Forar got permabanned for starting it, suspended for a time, or just a warning. Dissension is not tolerated in the DPRK.. I mean PB forums.
As an aside, it wasn't necessarily deleted, I believe they've mentioned the forum software allowing them to move (without leaving anything behind) and/or hide threads so they can review them without leaving it in the public eye.
Yes they also sometimes lock and reopen threads, but for a topic like that I'm not surprised if they decided to pull or hide it outright.
But nothing as of yet in terms of disciplinary action.
it probably was removed since it shone a not so good light on PB, plain and simple, doubt they want any talk of PB being sued or anything.
Also Forar, in that other topic about litigation, you might want to tell Eliakon, not many complaining on the forums there cause they are banned from the forums there.
Forar wrote: Not so much as a private message over it so far.
As an aside, it wasn't necessarily deleted, I believe they've mentioned the forum software allowing them to move (without leaving anything behind) and/or hide threads so they can review them without leaving it in the public eye.
Yes they also sometimes lock and reopen threads, but for a topic like that I'm not surprised if they decided to pull or hide it outright.
Any good forum software will allow you to move threads and not leave a 'trace' behind - or you can also leave a 'trace' if you want people to still be able to find it in its original location.
Also, I'm sure every forum also has 'hidden' and/or limited access areas as well.
Problem with the saintly Kevin, is that he has still not realised this is not a normal PB project they put the money to themselves and so can promise and delay for years, where in the end sthe fanbois will still thank him for working so hard to get it to them
This is the largest investment PB have ever got and so there is a lot of other people with a stake in this as well as Kev and so we want to see progress.
As an aside how much did PB/ND put up themselves for this KS, could it be as is likely the backers were in the end massively funduing this "dream" game for PB?
wilycoyote wrote: As an aside how much did PB/ND put up themselves for this KS, could it be as is likely the backers were in the end massively funduing this "dream" game for PB?
As far as we know, PB didn't put a cent not coming from the KS funds. They might have paid something beforehand to Ninja Division, but we don't really know. Also, I'm pretty confident that any amount paid beforehand to ND got reimbursd afterwards from the KS funds, because it's completely consequent with the way PB seems to do everything.
So I'd say the answer is probably "nothing at all".
I don't think they've ever said how much money might've gone in, but they claimed to have been working on the project for half a year prior to the KS launching, and did have a reasonable number of renders and whatnot lined up for during the campaign.
That's for PB at least. ND was contracted to do work on the figures and the rules, so I would expect that they got paid and didn't front any of their own money.
If I were passionate about a project and wanted to help it get off the ground I could see perhaps doing some initial work at a reduced rate or with delayed payments (fronting time and expertise rather than capital), with compensation arranged in advance in the contract, but that might just be me.
Given that PB's railed against how they expected ND to do all the heavy lifting and apparently ND acted in accordance with their contract, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that ND may well have had to point out they were paid to do X and even helped with Y, but that Z and beyond were outside the Scope Of Work, which is a very common thing to debate in large projects.
Which is funny, because ND doing all the heavy lifting is part of what drew a lot of people with reservations about PB into the campaign in the first place. That whole diatribe across 2 updates attempts to make it sound like PB were stabbed in the back by ND, but my read is that they failed to capture the entire scope of what they needed ND to do in the contract, and it bit them hard in the end.
I've been working with some project managers for the past year and a half, and things being in, not in, added to, or removed from the scope of work is a thing that happens all the time.
If PB couldn't sweeten the deal enough to get ND onboard with the extra effort, that's on them to do it themselves or find someone else who could.
This project has been in dramatic need of a quality PM since before it started, and the lack of one has at least been a contributing factor that led to this clusterfeth as it is.
Excellent point. The Dust and Battlefront KS is another example of this. One rule of thumb I have is to avoid projects with multiple parties (eg. AvP b/c of licensing) which fits with the project scope issues between two parties you mention.
Well, the BBB being a generally toothless organization (by my understanding) I can understand why it's not a popular method of attempting to pursue alternative means of recompense.
Checkmarking it along with other methods tried before reaching out to AG's or other venues, however, might make it more attractive in the weeks and months to come.
So you might not really be 1 of 3, Talizvar. Simply among the first 3 to eventually pursue that option.
Hell, I'm glad to know it's possible to file a complaint as a Canadian. I'm not at that point yet, but if I walk that path, you're blazing the trail, sir.
Forar wrote: I'm not at that point yet, but if I walk that path, you're blazing the trail, sir.
I like to think of it more as adding a little discomfort to their self-absorbed view of things.
Some accountability would be nice.
The money is still mine till legally proven otherwise.
Increasing publicity to inform others of their "practices" is a consumer right and may make PB aware they may not be all that acceptable to polite society.
No hater here, just attempting some public training, they are getting a wee bit old to learn new tricks however: gotta try.
Talizvar wrote: Well, it is rather sad to be one of only three in the BBB complaint club.
Any other takers or waiting to see the fallout?
While I don't normally like to back seat litigate (my ability to seek recompense is all but non-existent at this time), I do hope any new entrants into the BBBCC, or anyone following up on said claims make sure to address the blatantly misleading unsubstantiated claim that they've kept backers informed.
Wyatt Bilger BBB Response wrote:Page 3, Para 1, There have been 17 Updates in the last six months alone. {snip} Mr Bilger's claim that we have not provided any information in the last six months is simply untrue.
Unless you literally count a nebulous "soon" as "informing your backers", those claims are champion grade fertilizer. It's technically accurate, but it's not in the spirit of what's being asked. And in eight days, that one actual newsworthy update rolls off the "six months" timeframe.
It's like the part of the FAQ that Kevin quotes, that he completely fails to address. "If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator."
First off, where's the effort? They've been as transparent as an unsold pallet of Robotech Tactics boxes, and the BBB complaints ARE trying to hold PB accountable, because nothing else has worked, and two years after it was due, and a year after partial delivery, patience and understanding are wearing thin. They refuse to engage the backer base in public, or address any of the actual issues the backers have, and in some cases, refuse to respond privately too.
Regarding the patience and understanding that paragraph he's expecting, I'm sure if an artist or a writer was paid for their work up front, on a 9 month deadline, delivered half 9 months late, sent in a very rough draft of a couple sketches/chapters 6 months after that, and spent the last six months saying nothing but "soon", I think Kevin's patience and understanding would be well past exhausted too.
I put this on face book but I thought I should share it here as well
As one of the backers that filled with the bbb, I just wanted to take a moment and explain why I did and I why I think it's important that the rest of you do as well.
I had tried to contact pb and they outright ignored my messages. Filling a case with the bbb shows and demonstrates my attempts at resolution and reconciliation.
However potentially the most critical element is that it gave me a document by Kevin himself that I can present to the AG and the court. It gives me some insight into his defense and Kevin himself gave me a letter so full of legal holes as to be outright laughable. The more documents like the one he gave me we can get the better. For those of us that want a refund, it's letters like these that we need to present to the AG. The document Kevin himself produced, could ultimately prove more damning than anything I could have written. So I urge you all to contact the bbb so Kevin can continue shooting himself in the foot.
also for those of you who keep mentioning lawsuits and such, your still missing the big point, the lawsuits are nothing the BBB complaints are nothing, the thing that will destroy PB and utterly destroy them is the AG's and if PB does nothing soon they will be destroyed soon, once the AG's been called in they can't be called off by any backer, even when that order against that one kickstarter came in against it by a CPA violation brought in from an AG, the Pledges were being delivered and the courts still found them guilty. and fined. I look at all those whiners on the PB forums and think they are whining to the wrong people, they need to whine to PB cause the AG will not listen to them and I have no say in stopping the AG's now. all I can do is supply the information they request.
you want to keep PB safe you better start whining at PB and Kevin to get off his ass and do something, cause once the ball gets rolling with the various AG's they will not stop until they got their blood.
Threatening "destruction" is a bit much for bad behavior on supplying goods and a rather hostile customer service experience.
BBB is just putting the "badge of dishonor!" on PB in one venue, others shall be updated if satisfaction is not reached.
If we are to get the models that were promised: I want to know.
If we are not getting them: I want the a proportionate amount of the money owing because they were able to do it but chose other priorities.
I would be "happy" enough to get product of theirs when it hits retail, anything even remotely approaching "pre-order" is bad in the same breath as Palladium Books.
If this all works out, I am sure I will be in the clear to order the coveted Robotech dice bag.
The best we'll (eventually) get out of PB is extra RRT starter boxes, fourth-tier PB product that nobody will want (and damned sure can't resell) or nothing.
It will be interesting to see what happens eventually.
someone on the Robotech Uncensored group who happens to be pretty much the voice of PB fans posted this:
Don Wilkins Thats okay Dick. I am not a backer. Do you see me complaining? Besides I have probably put more money in this then you anyway. And I still am able to wait and not cry like a little girl.
Wave 2 is coming. That is plain as day. They have said since the begining of wave 2 that they were keeping hush about any releasse dates and other info. You are just mad that they are keeping you in the dark. Although I may not agree with that . It was probably for the best when dealing with customers like this.
I will wait patiently for wave 2 . After all. It is already paid for. Thank you for that!!
It'd be kind of funny for people with Showdowns and Reckless orders.
"Were 18 or 36 VT's enough? How about 10 or 20 more? 24 - 48 more Battlepods, everyone loves Battlepods!"
8 more core boxes (assuming one per battle cry) would be one thing.
Now hypothetically, if they tried to play the same with add on funding, that becomes very interesting to see how they valued it. The 'topping off' of the BC's I can see some wiggle room in, but I would not consider 2 more core boxes a fair trade for $200+ in add ons, but also can't see them admitting that they only retail for around $60-70 (or less on a big sale), despite having them roughly that low at Gencon themselves, and even then, 3-4 more on top of the other 8 would hold actual negative appeal.
The missing figures from BC's (Rick, Roy, Miriya, Khyron, Super VTs, Gnerls, FPA, MPA, etc) tally up to far more than just $50 (a vaguely generous market value) or $100 (a laughable MSRP), but I can see them arguing "oh, they're owed 27 more figures, this is 37 figures! More! How is that not generous!?" if they tried it.
And yeah, adding like 7000+ core boxes to the market would absolutely flood availability, killing off what resale value remains (yes Rick I'm aware of the BC on ebay that went for barely more than a core box, that's what I'm referring to), and trying to pay off backers that are unhappy with the figures with more of those figures seems like it'd be a hard sell.
Looking at it this way; a core box, in theory, probably wholesales for like $40-50. Add in the considerable price of shipping (a flat rate box would be, what, $10, more for larger orders, vastly more for international backers); even with material on hand, paying $20-30 in shipping to send someone $50-100 in product to alleviate $40-50'ish in repayment of outstanding product seems like an awful lot of resources even on the small scale.
I doubt it's an impossible solution, but the 'savings' of avoiding spending more capital would rapidly get eaten up in shipping alone, is most of my point.
Let me stress this again. I completely agree that the bbb rating is largely meaningless. It's pb reply letters to the bbb that are what I'd like to see. These are documents that we can then present to the AG.
Well, on the topic of waiting patiently, I will see what they have to say.
Heck, I would sign a non-disclosure agreement if they show me where they are at and objective evidence of where wave 2 is going.
Funny that guy saying we are crying like babies and he did not put any money in and has backers to thank for the inevitable wave 2: if you have nothing invested in a thing, your expectations are rather similar.
I feel like I am in a bad Dire Straits video where PB figures they get "Money for nothing...".
Funny how we are so mean we deserve no update but they will weather the storm of bad press.
I think they fear proof of being wrong more than customer ire... weird.
Anyway, another fine Monday.
See if Mr. Email will have anything for me this week other than another swift kick in the shorts from our good friends at PB.
Anyway, another fine Monday.
See if Mr. Email will have anything for me this week other than another swift kick in the shorts from our good friends at PB.
Perhaps they'll offer you first dibs personally on buying some new product sight unseen (rules yet to come) to be delivered at a future date of their guessing.
warboss wrote: Perhaps they'll offer you first dibs personally on buying some new product sight unseen (rules yet to come) to be delivered at a future date of their guessing.
A figure personally made by Kevin of an indeterminate material rolled in glitter.
I may have to give it a pass.
I shudder to think what my PB "Christmas Surprise" grab bag would be if I ordered one.
here is the latest Palladium's forums boss had to say on the facebook uncensored group:
Jerome Restof They don't need to respond to facebook posts, they just need to post real information to the Kickstarter page.
Like · Reply · 1 · 54 mins
Hide 23 Replies
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Or on their website
Like · 41 mins
Richard Steinberg no on the kickstarter forums where the backers are expected to find info on the project.
Like · 38 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Out on the website OF THE COMPANY BEHIND THE PRODUCT
Like · 32 mins
Richard Steinberg wrongo jackie boy, PB has to inform backers on the Kickstarter forums, since many of us do not visit the Palladium website nor care too, furthemore the e-mails I get from PB weekly are deleted since any and all info regarding the kickstarter is supposed to be on the kickstarter forums, just because PB is afraid to put anything in writing that they cannot erase does not make it legal.
Like · 30 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Please share with us the stated rule indicating where palladium had to post?
Like · 29 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz And if you're deleting emails, that's on you.
Like · 28 mins
Richard Steinberg its in the kickstarter ToS, where the backers are supposed to be kept updated on the updates on the kickstarter site
Like · 27 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Link
Like · 27 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Prove your message that it says that UPDATES HAVE TO BE MADE ON THE KICKSTARTER PAGE.
Like · 26 mins
Jerome Restof Besides which, they aren't even posting updates on their webpage. There's a single link to the convention exclusives, and then no other updates about anything until January of 2012. They need to post to the KS page.
Like · 25 mins
Richard Steinberg When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard o...See More
Like · 23 mins
Richard Steinberg you notice the last part there right?
Like · 23 mins
Jerome Restof https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/updates Updates — Kickstarter
Throughout the life of your project, you’ll be communicating with backers and keeping them updated on your progress. That’s where project updates come in. They’re your project’s blog, and how backers can follow along with you from start to finish. Being part of this journey is one of the best things…
KICKSTARTER.COM
Like · 23 mins
Richard Steinberg damn Jerome beat me to it tongue emoticon
Like · 23 mins
Jerome Restof smile emoticon
Like · 22 mins
Jerome Restof Richard Steinberg https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use Kickstarter
These updated terms went into effect on October 19, 2014, at 12 a.m. Eastern Time, and apply to all projects launched on Kickstarter on or after that date. To see the previous version of these terms, which govern all projects launched before that date, click here.
KICKSTARTER.COM
Like · 20 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Sorry, but I'm not seeing where it says that the updates have to be made via the Kickstarter page.
Like · 19 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz It mentions posting an update, but it doesn't state that the update has to be on the Kickstarter page itself
Like · 19 mins
Richard Steinberg Projects: Fundraising and Commerce
Kickstarter is a platform where Project Creators run campaigns to fund creative projects by offering rewards to raise money from Backers. By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator ...See More
Like · 18 mins
Richard Steinberg https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 Terms of Use — Kickstarter
This page applies only to projects launched on or before October 18th, 2014 at 11:59pm ET. For the current version of these terms, please click here.
KICKSTARTER.COM
Like · Remove Preview · 18 mins
Richard Steinberg Rules and Conduct
As a condition of use, you promise not to use the Service for any purpose that is prohibited by the Terms of Use or law. The Service is provided only for your own personal, non-commercial use (except as allowed by the terms set forth...See More
Like · 14 mins
Jerome Restof You are just parsing now, Nmi. If people bought into a KS, they would expect to see said updates about that KS on the KS page, not some other random webpage. But that is besides the point: Palladium isn't even updating their own page as to the status o...See More
Like · 13 mins
Richard Steinberg NMI you notice the part there about Spam and unsolicited advertising? that is what PB's weekly mails are about., when I brought this up to kickstarter they said just remove myself from their mail list since all updates regarding the project are to come thru their kickstarter forum updates page on the kickstarter site.
The worst part is, even if they posted on their website / whatever, PB would still need to provide some sort of objective update. Pictures, facts, dates. Not just nebulous "soon".
NMI is not a joy to deal with but we could avoid attacking him here where he cannot ban... I mean "defend" himself or a mod with great regret will bane us...
Talizvar wrote: NMI is not a joy to deal with but we could avoid attacking him here where he cannot ban... I mean "defend" himself or a mod with great regret will bane us...
Hey, while I'm not a huge fan of the personal attacks, there's an irony that you suggest he can't defend himself here. Given that his argument in that thread was PB don't have to "defend" themselves on the Kickstarter, they can "defend" themselves wherever they want.
Unless he's done something to incur a banhammer here, that is. And if he has, I have confidence it was for much more than what most PB Forum banned have done.
Talizvar wrote: NMI is not a joy to deal with but we could avoid attacking him here where he cannot ban... I mean "defend" himself or a mod with great regret will bane us...
my point is while not quite employed with PB he does have their ear and somewhat acts for them in other ways, so what he says could be construed as coming from Pb themselves, since, well they say nothing.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It is entirely possible that he has done and said objectively stupid things, preserved for posterity on the internet. Like many, if not all of us.
I would prefer people continue to badger Kevin over lackeys like NMI.
problem is the only way to get any sort of response out of Kevin is to file a BBB complaint and maybe even a complaint with your local State's AG.
Asterios wrote: here is the latest Palladium's forums boss had to say on the facebook uncensored group:
Spoiler:
Jerome Restof They don't need to respond to facebook posts, they just need to post real information to the Kickstarter page.
Like · Reply · 1 · 54 mins
Hide 23 Replies
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Or on their website
Like · 41 mins
Richard Steinberg no on the kickstarter forums where the backers are expected to find info on the project.
Like · 38 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Out on the website OF THE COMPANY BEHIND THE PRODUCT
Like · 32 mins
Richard Steinberg wrongo jackie boy, PB has to inform backers on the Kickstarter forums, since many of us do not visit the Palladium website nor care too, furthemore the e-mails I get from PB weekly are deleted since any and all info regarding the kickstarter is supposed to be on the kickstarter forums, just because PB is afraid to put anything in writing that they cannot erase does not make it legal.
Like · 30 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Please share with us the stated rule indicating where palladium had to post?
Like · 29 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz And if you're deleting emails, that's on you.
Like · 28 mins
Richard Steinberg its in the kickstarter ToS, where the backers are supposed to be kept updated on the updates on the kickstarter site
Like · 27 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Link
Like · 27 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Prove your message that it says that UPDATES HAVE TO BE MADE ON THE KICKSTARTER PAGE.
Like · 26 mins
Jerome Restof Besides which, they aren't even posting updates on their webpage. There's a single link to the convention exclusives, and then no other updates about anything until January of 2012. They need to post to the KS page.
Like · 25 mins
Richard Steinberg When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard o...See More
Like · 23 mins
Richard Steinberg you notice the last part there right?
Like · 23 mins
Jerome Restof https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/updates Updates — Kickstarter
Throughout the life of your project, you’ll be communicating with backers and keeping them updated on your progress. That’s where project updates come in. They’re your project’s blog, and how backers can follow along with you from start to finish. Being part of this journey is one of the best things…
KICKSTARTER.COM
Like · 23 mins
Richard Steinberg damn Jerome beat me to it tongue emoticon
Like · 23 mins
Jerome Restof smile emoticon
Like · 22 mins
Jerome Restof Richard Steinberg https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use Kickstarter
These updated terms went into effect on October 19, 2014, at 12 a.m. Eastern Time, and apply to all projects launched on Kickstarter on or after that date. To see the previous version of these terms, which govern all projects launched before that date, click here.
KICKSTARTER.COM
Like · 20 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Sorry, but I'm not seeing where it says that the updates have to be made via the Kickstarter page.
Like · 19 mins
Jeff Nmi Ruiz It mentions posting an update, but it doesn't state that the update has to be on the Kickstarter page itself
Like · 19 mins
Richard Steinberg Projects: Fundraising and Commerce
Kickstarter is a platform where Project Creators run campaigns to fund creative projects by offering rewards to raise money from Backers. By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator ...See More
Like · 18 mins
Richard Steinberg https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 Terms of Use — Kickstarter
This page applies only to projects launched on or before October 18th, 2014 at 11:59pm ET. For the current version of these terms, please click here.
KICKSTARTER.COM
Like · Remove Preview · 18 mins
Richard Steinberg Rules and Conduct
As a condition of use, you promise not to use the Service for any purpose that is prohibited by the Terms of Use or law. The Service is provided only for your own personal, non-commercial use (except as allowed by the terms set forth...See More
Like · 14 mins
Jerome Restof You are just parsing now, Nmi. If people bought into a KS, they would expect to see said updates about that KS on the KS page, not some other random webpage. But that is besides the point: Palladium isn't even updating their own page as to the status o...See More
Like · 13 mins
Richard Steinberg NMI you notice the part there about Spam and unsolicited advertising? that is what PB's weekly mails are about., when I brought this up to kickstarter they said just remove myself from their mail list since all updates regarding the project are to come thru their kickstarter forum updates page on the kickstarter site.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It is entirely possible that he has done and said objectively stupid things, preserved for posterity on the internet. Like many, if not all of us.
I would prefer people continue to badger Kevin over lackeys like NMI.
problem is the only way to get any sort of response out of Kevin is to file a BBB complaint and maybe even a complaint with your local State's AG.
No idea how/what to do considering I live in the UK. Feeling that I am probably going to get boned.
Went in to the Ks as I am a modeller first and foremost, have no desire to play the game, and only wanted the character models, SDF-1, and a few bits. I don't want core boxes in place of (almost) all the stuff I wanted, it's either give me what I ordered, or give me my money back!
I might have to look into small claims court over here - and I don't believe for a second that Kev, or anyone else from PB, will put up a defence as it'll cost them more to either hire a local defence, or fly someone over here than it would to settle. Still, hanging on in the vague hope that W2 isn't vapourware at this point, I'd rather have my models than my money back, but if that's all I can get .................................
Once this hits a courtroom situation there's no way any of the backers are going to get anything (other than perhaps a warm feeling that they've killed Palladium)
Businesses (especially in shaky financial situations) almost always have more liabilities to secured creditors (like banks/tax authorities/other busninesses with better lawyers) than they have assets especially when the assets are such esoteric things as minis/games etc
The meeting of creditors was held on Friday. The United States Trustee’s office also was present at the hearing and also questioned the debtor. You can purchased the transcript, if you wish, but today, being Sunday, I am not able to provide the contact information. Send me an email on Tuesday and I will give you that information.
I have not yet decided if I want to sell the assets, or abandon them – that is a complicated legal matter involving signficant out of pocket costs on my part , and which requires some thought and consultation with others. If I do sell assets, it will be on an “as is”, basis without any warranty of any kind, and subject to IP rights, if any, held by third persons.
The administrative costs to administer this bakruptcy are signfiicant and large. I am not sure that I can sell the items and get enough to pay administrative costs and then pay a resonsable dividend to credits. Anyone that buys the assets does so at their own risk.
Conducting my investigation of the financial affairs the debtor and in looking at the Kickstarter web cite, I don’t believe the he was engaged in an illegal Ponzi scheme or committed actionable fraud. Remember, being a bad business man or making more decisions does not always equate with fraud. His problems primarily stem from greatly underestimating production and other costs and making poor decisions. But I found no intent to cheat, and I did not see large sums of money diverted from the company for his personal use. Significantly, sd there are no written agreements detailing the investment transactions. It is difficult if not impossible to prove intentional wrongdoing absent written documentation.
and this is a very similar situation with a bunch of the assets tied to a licence, if palladium goes pop it may well be that nobody can sell any of the robotech stuff the have warehoused (licences may well become void and HG/other licensors do no have to grant them again, and certainly not free)
so the assets of the business will be a stack of out of date rpgs and associated IP, out of date office stuff and possibly a building if they actually own it.
without a building it could well be cheaper for the court to trustee (who has to add his own costs into the equation as well) to abandon the lot (in which case Kevin could well end up still owning the non-licenced IP assets and possibly even the stock... although at that point he too would be unable to sell the robotech stuff
So whatever you decide to do, do not do so in the expectation of getting any cash back, it's just not going to happen, leaving things alone may well be distasteful but is the best chance of backers ending up with something (eventually)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Once this hits a courtroom situation there's no way any of the backers are going to get anything (other than perhaps a warm feeling that they've killed Palladium)
Businesses (especially in shaky financial situations) almost always have more liabilities to secured creditors (like banks/tax authorities/other busninesses with better lawyers) than they have assets especially when the assets are such esoteric things as minis/games etc
The meeting of creditors was held on Friday. The United States Trustee’s office also was present at the hearing and also questioned the debtor. You can purchased the transcript, if you wish, but today, being Sunday, I am not able to provide the contact information. Send me an email on Tuesday and I will give you that information.
I have not yet decided if I want to sell the assets, or abandon them – that is a complicated legal matter involving signficant out of pocket costs on my part , and which requires some thought and consultation with others. If I do sell assets, it will be on an “as is”, basis without any warranty of any kind, and subject to IP rights, if any, held by third persons.
The administrative costs to administer this bakruptcy are signfiicant and large. I am not sure that I can sell the items and get enough to pay administrative costs and then pay a resonsable dividend to credits. Anyone that buys the assets does so at their own risk.
Conducting my investigation of the financial affairs the debtor and in looking at the Kickstarter web cite, I don’t believe the he was engaged in an illegal Ponzi scheme or committed actionable fraud. Remember, being a bad business man or making more decisions does not always equate with fraud. His problems primarily stem from greatly underestimating production and other costs and making poor decisions. But I found no intent to cheat, and I did not see large sums of money diverted from the company for his personal use. Significantly, sd there are no written agreements detailing the investment transactions. It is difficult if not impossible to prove intentional wrongdoing absent written documentation.
and this is a very similar situation with a bunch of the assets tied to a licence, if palladium goes pop it may well be that nobody can sell any of the robotech stuff the have warehoused (licences may well become void and HG/other licensors do no have to grant them again, and certainly not free)
so the assets of the business will be a stack of out of date rpgs and associated IP, out of date office stuff and possibly a building if they actually own it.
without a building it could well be cheaper for the court to trustee (who has to add his own costs into the equation as well) to abandon the lot (in which case Kevin could well end up still owning the non-licenced IP assets and possibly even the stock... although at that point he too would be unable to sell the robotech stuff
So whatever you decide to do, do not do so in the expectation of getting any cash back, it's just not going to happen, leaving things alone may well be distasteful but is the best chance of backers ending up with something (eventually)
Pretty much my thinking as well. But since this opinion does not line up with some others, our opinion is belittled.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then if they redo Robotech with a new movie and someone else picks it up....we all know it will not be with the classical designs.
As if i will ever happen, that we will see any classic wave 2 stuff.
The little chance for maybe 2016 or even 2017 is getting more belaughed every week there is no substantial news about wave 2.
Giving those gangsters the benfit of believing they work on RRT.
How many more paid working hours will it take? And does anyone believe, they will it just do for nothing?
Every week, even every day is eating the funds dedicated for the project.
With funding this projekt we just gave those old farts money for a living, and to pay other debts, nothing more.
Who cares if someone else will pick up the rights to a robotech miniature game soon (tm).
We will never see any of the classic wave 2 stuff anyway.
As if i will ever happen, that we will see any classic wave 2 stuff.
The little chance for maybe 2016 or even 2017 is getting more belaughed every week there is no substantial news about wave 2.
Giving those gangsters the benfit of believing they work on RRT.
How many more paid working hours will it take? And does anyone believe, they will it just do for nothing?
Every week, even every day is eating the funds dedicated for the project.
With funding this projekt we just gave those old farts money for a living, and to pay other debts, nothing more.
Who cares if someone else will pick up the rights to a robotech miniature game soon (tm).
We will never see any of the classic wave 2 stuff anyway.
and your suggestion is??? Sue just to get some satisfaction/revenge and guarantee yourself to never see anything else? It's a slim chance or none.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Complaining is interesting....but I'd like to see solutions.
and your suggestion is??? Sue just to get some satisfaction/revenge and guarantee yourself to never see anything else? It's a slim chance or none.
PB allready guarantte me, that i will see nothing anyway.
As an internal backer i will see even less. (wow even less than nothing)
What do you think we have to loose?
We have a better chance going to vegas without a penny and becoming millionaire than getting any wave 2 stuff form PB.
So what do i have to loose, other thatn the satisfaction that justice struck them down?
Automatically Appended Next Post: what solution do you want?
You are the best example.
You work your arse off for this game for nothing.
You and james did the majority of promotion for this game?
What has PB done? Anythging nearly equal? Guess not.
What solution do you have to get those lazy producer to promote the game?
Is your solution to this problem to work harder and promote the game more, so that maybe even PB would become interesset in the game?
You want solution from me how to solve any wave 2 problem?
i Don´t even have a solution, how to get an honest anwser from them?
What do you think we can do, so that they will produce anything?
We are running out of option.
Waiting without any information and just listening to their soons (tm) isn´t an option anymore.
Trying to talk to them without getting answers isn´t an option anymore
As i said WE, THE ONES WHO PAID, are running out of options to explain our patience for waiting.
Why bring any solutions, when they PB doesn´t listen to them anyway.
besides, how many months now , since you, mike, submitted the conventional rules?
Mike1975 wrote: Pretty much my thinking as well. But since this opinion does not line up with some others, our opinion is belittled.
Donkey caves gonna be donkey caves. The only time I 'belittle' those with differing opinions is when they pick that battle with their own belittling and disrespect. That's obviously not everyone's stance, but I have pointedly striven not to mock people simply for believing.
I mock people for believing and calling people whiners, or haters, or butthurt, or whatever other obnoxious term they want to apply to make themselves feel superior and demean people with critique and complaints.
If people want to grit their teeth and pretend that wishing hard enough might maybe sorta kinda perhaps get them wave two some day, more power to 'em.
But let's not overlook a good number of people in the community (backers and not alike) who are cheerfully happy to lavish praise and tongue baths on PB while snarling at the first hint of differing opinion? Like, don't even bother arguing it, Alex Clarke is *right there*, or Lola, or Joshua (and obviously this isn't an exhaustive list).
Note that I'm not saying that some how these stances are equitable, that somehow it all balances out. There are absolutely some doom and gloomers who could get wave two wrapped in thousand dollar bills and delivered by *insert gorgeous model of their choice here* who would continue to complain. It's not like 'supporters' are being actively hunted down, or that there aren't some 'white knights' out there who will blindly and overzealously lash out at those who don't show the proper amount of gushing love and respect.
Then if they redo Robotech with a new movie and someone else picks it up....we all know it will not be with the classical designs.
I look forward to the VT's being based off of WWI Biplane designs while Meagan Fox portrays May (Minmei wasn't sitting well with test audiences) a hard rock singer who leads the UREDF to battle against the vicious Daves (Zentraedi was too foreign and also disturbed test audiences, something more familiar was needed).
Macross Island actually being found in a lake on the continental US will definitely throw some people for a curve. Don't ask where the aircraft carriers came from. Really, don't, it's a plot point in the 3rd act. As is May's love of Hunt Richer, whose name is used for several jokes obscene enough to almost earn the movie a PG, but luckily they keep the hard G they were looking for in the ratings.
Also the SDF (number omitted, still scaring test audiences) being painted in a garish mockery of the American flag will turn some heads, but luckily in 3D it's almost kind of worth the nausea.
Well, for all I expect to get from PB, and given that I certainly don't have the most to lose, I might as well just forget it. That's £100+ that I'll never see again, but they'll never see me again. That loss will hurt, but at least it's not going to hurt now as much as it would have done two years ago.
Especially as I mainly wanted that SDF-1, and that need has now been satisfied. I have just put in a pre-order with HLJ. It's a known scale, it's Injection Plastic, and it'll get here before anything from PB.
http://www.hlj.com/product/hsg65830.
Forar wrote: There are absolutely some doom and gloomers who could get wave two wrapped in thousand dollar bills and delivered by *insert gorgeous model of their choice here* who would continue to complain.
If you ever need to test out that hypothesis, LMK. I'm willing to help and can supply a list of models to choose from. I'm also flexible about the thousand dollar thing (whether wrapping me or the models that is).
I look forward to the VT's being based off of WWI Biplane designs while Meagan Fox portrays May (Minmei wasn't sitting well with test audiences) a hard rock singer who leads the UREDF to battle against the vicious Daves (Zentraedi was too foreign and also disturbed test audiences, something more familiar was needed).
Macross Island actually being found in a lake on the continental US will definitely throw some people for a curve. Don't ask where the aircraft carriers came from. Really, don't, it's a plot point in the 3rd act. As is May's love of Hunt Richer, whose name is used for several jokes obscene enough to almost earn the movie a PG, but luckily they keep the hard G they were looking for in the ratings.
Also the SDF (number omitted, still scaring test audiences) being painted in a garish mockery of the American flag will turn some heads, but luckily in 3D it's almost kind of worth the nausea.
I've also heard that the alternate transformation mode of the SDF-1 as well as the guardian mode of the VT's will be a robot monster form instead in order to bring in the younger pokemon demographic. In any case, your rumor is still more realistic than the wave 2 in 2015 unsubstantiated rumor I occasionally get with a weekly spam email from Palladium.
Forar wrote: There are absolutely some doom and gloomers who could get wave two wrapped in thousand dollar bills and delivered by *insert gorgeous model of their choice here* who would continue to complain.
If you ever need to test out that hypothesis, LMK. I'm willing to help and can supply a list of models to choose from. I'm also flexible about the thousand dollar thing (whether wrapping me or the models that is).
I'd rather have W2 delivered by a gorgeous model who was wrapped in thousand dollar bills. Her costume might have a few holes in it before she left, mind you. Other than that, you can sign me up for that programme too. (Don't think I'd be complaining after though. Would be interesting to find out!)
I do understand Mike's concern that any legal defense needing to be paid by Palladium could hose the company (allowable out of KS funds? It's applicable...).
On the other hand, if Kevin is allowed to dictate the pace he wishes to run at, he would see no problem of this dragging on for 5 years.
This is also the largest captive audience he has ever had and I personally think he is loath to give it up.
This is why holding his feet to the fire with BBB, pushing for KS updates, complaints to KS, comments in forums are all something to give a wee bit of motivation.
I would like to see the wave 2 models very much, if of similar quality to wave 1, sure I would still be happy, BUT being coy about the status of it has no reasonable explanation other than "just because" or they are unable to complete it.
The only logical means of being unable to complete is running out of funds.
Caused by budgetary mismanagement and purchasing too much retail stock is the most likely thing.
So I pose to you all as the "captive audience":
If it takes up to 5 years to get all your stuff as PB tries to hide the fact they spent the money and they need time to scrape funds together to get their dies out of hock: are you willing to wait?. This also includes them playing all kinds of games as they try to hide that fact while spamming your email to buy their latest dice bag.
If no:
Take it as a loss and walk away?
Or:
Keep "tilting that windmill" and keep pestering for means of getting your money back?
(my choice)
Or:
Or be really upset with them and decide you want to litigate because you are insulted past the point of being practical about it?
I think companies that ignore customer service or just plain good manners deserve to fail.
Mike1975 wrote: and your suggestion is??? Sue just to get some satisfaction/revenge and guarantee yourself to never see anything else? It's a slim chance or none.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Complaining is interesting....but I'd like to see solutions.
still thinking?
I don't see any either.
Taking action (however impotent) against palladium is a solution; it's just a solution that you don't like though. At this point, some folks (not me, at least not yet) find that the likelihood of getting anything from wave 2 is fast approaching zero so the only closure or satisfaction they'll get from this project will be to give Palladium what they deserve. It's a judgement call based on varying priorities (like the "Pledging for Robotech, $140...ruining Palladium's BBB rep....priceless!" commercials) so you or I don't have to agree.. but they are doing something.
Forar wrote: There are absolutely some doom and gloomers who could get wave two wrapped in thousand dollar bills and delivered by *insert gorgeous model of their choice here* who would continue to complain.
If you ever need to test out that hypothesis, LMK. I'm willing to help and can supply a list of models to choose from. I'm also flexible about the thousand dollar thing (whether wrapping me or the models that is).
I'd rather have W2 delivered by a gorgeous model who was wrapped in thousand dollar bills. Her costume might have a few holes in it before she left, mind you. Other than that, you can sign me up for that programme too. (Don't think I'd be complaining after though. Would be interesting to find out!)
If Palladium promised either of those, we'd be "lucky" to actually get 3 years later Kevin Siembieda or NMI incompletely wrapped in old Italian Lira singles... and they're going commando.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: I do understand Mike's concern that any legal defense needing to be paid by Palladium could hose the company (allowable out of KS funds? It's applicable...).
It might also drain money from the Palladium to the MOON!tm fund as well and prevent Kevin Siembieda from being the first RPG publisher to plant his rulebook there. They took a collection up at the office and got $1.43 so far with an estimated date of completion next Tuesday. But those dastardly Robotech backers might foil that plan as well. Does filing a BBB complaint or worse detract from Wave 2 both in terms of time and money? Sure.. but if they weren't going to happen anyways in any realistic form in the forseeable future (2015-2016) then the point is moot.
Pretty much my thinking as well. But since this opinion does not line up with some others, our opinion is belittled.
No, Mike. It's just some of us have the ability to read the writing on the wall and see that wave two isn't happening. And I'm perfectly happy to see PB put out of everyone's misery.
Talizvar may have a very strong point there; this is the largest captive audience they've had in years, possibly decades.
As I've noted before, the largest number of concurrent users they've ever had on their forums was 225 over 10 years ago. They very likely had more concurrent users on the KS comments (dozens upon dozens of people commenting, which means piles more lurking).
The 5.4k backers is nearly half their entire forum population.
The 92k+ comments on the main chain plus tens of thousands more across hundreds of updates is easily 10-20%+ of their entire forum population across 15 years (this new forum seems to have launched in or around Oct 2000).
Broadly speaking, this is a larger audience that has given them more money and attention than they've had in years.
Annoying as some people might be, until the BBB and AG's started getting taps on their shoulders, this may have been the greatest thing that every happened to them. Even whiny backers are still people talking about Palladium, yay!
It's only now with actual potential consequences looming that they might have to rethink what they're doing and saying (or not doing and not saying), and even as someone who isn't out to 'destroy PB' or whatever melodramatic donkeyhattery we wish to use, if this is the stick that spurs them to motion, I can't really complain.
We have tried the carrot already. Repeatedly. We have asked nicely, we have waited patiently, some more quietly and patiently than others. 2 years late. 3 years late or more for delivery looking likely. 6 months of silence on wave 2. 10 fething weeks since Wayne was allegedly going to compile data about wave 2.
That's not a minor thing. 10 weeks. 10 newsletters. 50'ish business days and no answers. And we shouldn't be the only ones angry; THEY should be angry! Who the hell are they working with that can't get back to them in 2.5 days, let alone 2.5 months?
Forar wrote: Also the SDF (number omitted, still scaring test audiences) being painted in a garish mockery of the American flag will turn some heads, but luckily in 3D it's almost kind of worth the nausea.
Pfft. Hater.
Maybe they can creatively do it with region coding, so if you watch it in Canada it'll have a gigantic maple leaf on its chest and the Daedalus attack will involve a hockey stick.
If Palladium promised either of those, we'd be "lucky" to actually get 3 years later Kevin Siembieda or NMI incompletely wrapped in old Italian Lira singles... and they're going commando.
Now that I'd have paid extra for! Kev delivering my W2 PERSONALLY, 5 years late, but commando and covered in Lira of any denomination, HELL YES!
1/ Lira of any denomination are worthless as Italy is in the Euro and has been for some years, so Lira would be dry and very flammable by now.
but mainly
2/ It would be my only chance, on behalf of us all, to find out if Unicorn Farts are indeed flammable!
Yes, I'd take that hit for the team, we need to know these things!
and your suggestion is??? Sue just to get some satisfaction/revenge and guarantee yourself to never see anything else? It's a slim chance or none.
PB allready guarantte me, that i will see nothing anyway.
As an internal backer i will see even less. (wow even less than nothing)
What do you think we have to loose?
We have a better chance going to vegas without a penny and becoming millionaire than getting any wave 2 stuff form PB.
So what do i have to loose, other thatn the satisfaction that justice struck them down?
Automatically Appended Next Post: what solution do you want?
You are the best example.
You work your arse off for this game for nothing.
You and james did the majority of promotion for this game?
What has PB done? Anythging nearly equal? Guess not.
What solution do you have to get those lazy producer to promote the game?
Is your solution to this problem to work harder and promote the game more, so that maybe even PB would become interesset in the game?
You want solution from me how to solve any wave 2 problem?
i Don´t even have a solution, how to get an honest anwser from them?
What do you think we can do, so that they will produce anything?
We are running out of option.
Waiting without any information and just listening to their soons (tm) isn´t an option anymore.
Trying to talk to them without getting answers isn´t an option anymore
As i said WE, THE ONES WHO PAID, are running out of options to explain our patience for waiting.
Why bring any solutions, when they PB doesn´t listen to them anyway.
besides, how many months now , since you, mike, submitted the conventional rules?
Let me look....I sent the re-write on 7/10.....they had them before that and asked me to make some changes.
I'm frustrated too. I've asked about wave 2 several times till I gave up asking. So while I understand other people being frustrated, I see things much like Orlandothetechnicolored. It's a slim chance or sue out of frustration and get zip. I do understand the plight of both sides in this. Neither is completely right or wrong. I just choose to stand on one side where I see some chance of success.
Mike1975 wrote: and your suggestion is??? Sue just to get some satisfaction/revenge and guarantee yourself to never see anything else? It's a slim chance or none.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Complaining is interesting....but I'd like to see solutions.
still thinking?
I don't see any either.
Taking action (however impotent) against palladium is a solution; it's just a solution that you don't like though. At this point, some folks (not me, at least not yet) find that the likelihood of getting anything from wave 2 is fast approaching zero so the only closure or satisfaction they'll get from this project will be to give Palladium what they deserve. It's a judgement call based on varying priorities (like the "Pledging for Robotech, $140...ruining Palladium's BBB rep....priceless!" commercials) so you or I don't have to agree.. but they are doing something.
And that's basically the point. People have differing levels of patience when it comes to things like this. For some people, their patience is done. For others, it's just not yet. But unless you're literally willing to never receive anything and are happy to have let Kevin try and fail, but otherwise carry on in his business as usual, there's a timeframe you won't find acceptable. Is six months more of "soon" unacceptable? A year? Five? Twenty? Fifty?
Sure, some people might want to just see PB burn. But there's definitely another factor involved that the "Lawsuits = PB Bankruptcy" argument seems to gloss over. Which is, until the AG steps in, or a substantial class action happens, it's quite possible that some people MIGHT get their money back. I wouldn't wager it's probable, but it MAY be more likely than Wave 2 happening at all, even without threat of litigation. It's the way of the world. Much like a bank run, or a stock market collapse, the people that get out first are usually the people that don't get completely hosed before everything goes to crap. Is it a selfish approach? Sure, it can be seen that way. But altruism isn't the overriding principle of investment. Yeah, yeah, Kickstarter isn't an investment, just like it's not a store, and it's not this or that. But you know what else it's not? It's not a straight up charity either. The TOS regarding rewards makes that abundantly clear.
And let's be clear, though some people may be "jumping the gun" from the perspective of those still willing to wait, it's been brought about by Palladium's reluctance to explain themselves. If PB had done even a half-assed job, most of this would be a moot point. Almost six weeks since the last actual update. Six months since the last real one. Twelve plus months since the one before that. If PB haven't done enough that they've got "nothing to show" (first post-Gencon PBWU) of Wave 2 after six months of "actively working on it" (according to their BBB responses), then why should anyone believe they have been actively working on it?
Simply put, at this point. Asking hasn't worked. Begging hasn't worked. Yelling hasn't worked. There's not much left that can be done, except in the immortal words of the recently departed Roddy Piper, "I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass", and for some, they're all out of bubblegum.
Forar wrote: Talizvar may have a very strong point there; this is the largest captive audience they've had in years, possibly decades.
As I've noted before, the largest number of concurrent users they've ever had on their forums was 225 over 10 years ago. They very likely had more concurrent users on the KS comments (dozens upon dozens of people commenting, which means piles more lurking).
The 5.4k backers is nearly half their entire forum population.
The 92k+ comments on the main chain plus tens of thousands more across hundreds of updates is easily 10-20%+ of their entire forum population across 15 years (this new forum seems to have launched in or around Oct 2000).
Broadly speaking, this is a larger audience that has given them more money and attention than they've had in years.
Annoying as some people might be, until the BBB and AG's started getting taps on their shoulders, this may have been the greatest thing that every happened to them. Even whiny backers are still people talking about Palladium, yay!
It's only now with actual potential consequences looming that they might have to rethink what they're doing and saying (or not doing and not saying), and even as someone who isn't out to 'destroy PB' or whatever melodramatic donkeyhattery we wish to use, if this is the stick that spurs them to motion, I can't really complain.
We have tried the carrot already. Repeatedly. We have asked nicely, we have waited patiently, some more quietly and patiently than others. 2 years late. 3 years late or more for delivery looking likely. 6 months of silence on wave 2. 10 fething weeks since Wayne was allegedly going to compile data about wave 2.
That's not a minor thing. 10 weeks. 10 newsletters. 50'ish business days and no answers. And we shouldn't be the only ones angry; THEY should be angry! Who the hell are they working with that can't get back to them in 2.5 days, let alone 2.5 months?
That is true, they do have the largest audience they have had in years. If they don't watch out it is turning into a lynch mob and Kevin is the head of the local coven......
1: Mike your an enabler, you enable PB to continue doing what they are doing and allowing them to do it, you enable them by helping them, its one thing if you were doing what your doing and PB was also doing something, but they are doing nothing and letting you do all the work.
2: people keep worrying about lawsuits and trying to get people from doing a lawsuit, wake up and smell the roses, the lawsuits are a non-issue, the AG's are coming in, they are not going to sue Palladium they are going to fine Palladium and if they have to sell off every scrap of paper Palladium has to get those fines they will, and these fines have priority over any outstanding debt, even pre-orders and such, and those who filed with their various states AG's will be paid out of those fines collected.
3: Quit whining at the backers filing with the BBB and the AG, its out of their hands now, the only one who can fix this now is PB and PB only, so go whine to PB and tell them to fix this or they are screwed.
4: quit blaming the backers who filed with the BBB and the AG's 2 years is long enough to get reamed by PB if you want to keep getting reamed by PB then good for you and suck it up.
5: on a bright (or dark depending on your point of view) note, all it will take is one more update by PB about conventional crap or sizing or what have you and not about actual wave 2 information that will turn the tide and the angry mobs will start coming out in force, and the mass filings with the BBB and the AG will began.
Rick, how about we don't attack Mike while he's being reasonable and meeting people half way?
I think your stance on this is well known at this point, but to have a conversation there needs to be something other than people lobbing accusations at one another.
Forar wrote: Rick, how about we don't attack Mike while he's being reasonable and meeting people half way?
I think your stance on this is well known at this point, but to have a conversation there needs to be something other than people lobbing accusations at one another.
oh i'm not attacking Mike, me and him have had this discussion before, and he knows hes enabling PB but hes not doing it for PB's benefit hes doing it for his own benefit to have the game, problem I have with that is the way hes doing it hes helping PB.
So calling him out an an enabler yet again is necessary why?
I think it's well established that Mike's page and efforts have probably carried at least some of the load that has allowed PB to even get to this point (messy as it is).
Calling him out on it again isn't necessary if it's a known thing.
Well, enabling or not the one question that we keep dancing around is this:
When would delivery of wave 2 become a priority to Kevin?
The answer is scary since his pride and joy RPG products take half a decade or more to complete.
- He has our money.
- It costs him money every step until he has something to sell.
- Sales have been "disappointing" at every turn.
- Backers have complained about everything they have done.
- Forums have picked up again about the mystery that is wave 2 there is "buzz".
- He is able to advertise new product to a known interested customer base.
- The complaining lacks "teeth" so a little customer trolling is therapeutic.
- KS lacks teeth: they got their money too.
It really comes down to legal motivation or a cattle prod to bring about any movement from that direction.
One other thing is that many cases are resolved by a "settlement" so if a backer is proceeding with a legal action, they could dictate terms of how wave 2 proceeds.
If PB can survive the lawyer case prep time costs then there is a chance of the project continuing with newfound motivation.
Talizvar wrote: Well, enabling or not the one question that we keep dancing around is this:
When would delivery of wave 2 become a priority to Kevin?
The answer is scary since his pride and joy RPG products take half a decade or more to complete.
- He has our money.
- It costs him money every step until he has something to sell.
- Sales have been "disappointing" at every turn.
- Backers have complained about everything they have done.
- Forums have picked up again about the mystery that is wave 2 there is "buzz".
- He is able to advertise new product to a known interested customer base.
- The complaining lacks "teeth" so a little customer trolling is therapeutic.
- KS lacks teeth: they got their money too.
It really comes down to legal motivation or a cattle prod to bring about any movement from that direction.
One other thing is that many cases are resolved by a "settlement" so if a backer is proceeding with a legal action, they could dictate terms of how wave 2 proceeds.
If PB can survive the lawyer case prep time costs then there is a chance of the project continuing with newfound motivation.
Talizar you keep dwelling on lawsuits and such, no one (well to my knowledge) has filed a lawsuit on PB as of yet, the big picture item is the AG's if they go after PB there will be nothing left of PB.
I will dig deeper as time permits.
Still not seeing how they will "destroy" PB... they are answerable to not destroying too many businesses, Michigan needs all they have.
Talizar you keep dwelling on lawsuits and such, no one (well to my knowledge) has filed a lawsuit on PB as of yet, the big picture item is the AG's if they go after PB there will be nothing left of PB.
Who are you and what have you done with the real Rick? Real Rick, if you're reading this, threaten to sue Palladium once on the KS comments if you're ok, twice if not!
Talizvar wrote: I will dig deeper as time permits.
Still not seeing how they will "destroy" PB... they are answerable to not destroying too many businesses, Michigan needs all they have.
thats if Michigan was the only state, right now someone from the state of Washington has filed with their AG, and we know Washington is willing to go after KS, and I've filed with my States AG which has already sent a letter of inquiry (2 days after I filed the complaint), and if anyone in other states file with their AG's thats more to add to the party and each state has its own fines and such they can charge PB for.
Talizar you keep dwelling on lawsuits and such, no one (well to my knowledge) has filed a lawsuit on PB as of yet, the big picture item is the AG's if they go after PB there will be nothing left of PB.
Who are you and what have you done with the real Rick? Real Rick, if you're reading this, threaten to sue Palladium once on the KS comments if you're ok, twice if not!
the lawsuit is the last thing if the state does nothing by the end of this year, but it may be a moot point since the state is starting on something.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Once this hits a courtroom situation there's no way any of the backers are going to get anything (other than perhaps a warm feeling that they've killed Palladium)
So whatever you decide to do, do not do so in the expectation of getting any cash back, it's just not going to happen, leaving things alone may well be distasteful but is the best chance of backers ending up with something (eventually)
Bad business should not exist as such - that's why bankruptcy looms in the background, as counterpoint to success and profit.
If Palladium will not deliver Wave 2, I have no problem seeing them burn.
As interested parties, backers have an interest in the case, and they should demand that Palladium be liquidated in order to remunerate a proportional amount to each backer. If that ends up being pennies on the dollar, that's objectively better than nothing.
Just from a different perspective, because perspective can be important, here's the timeline, as it pertains to length of time, in long form. Because just listing dates themselves can miss the scope we're talking about here. I've stripped out everything that's not consequential, and have just kept the pertinent dates, to show the passage of time on the campaign.
Apr 2013 - Kickstarter Campaign Launches May 2013 - Kickstarter Campaign Concludes Jun 2013 Jul 2013 Aug 2013 Sep 2013 - Pledge Manager Closes (everything still on schedule!) Oct 2013 Nov 2013 Dec 2013 - Rewards Due In Full (list should end here) Jan 2014 Feb 2014 Mar 2014 Apr 2014 - Ten Questions (still waiting on some answers). May 2014 Jun 2014 Jul 2014 - Wave 1 Production Begins Aug 2014 Sep 2014 Oct 2014 - Wave 1 Shipping Begins Nov 2014 Dec 2014 Jan 2015 Feb 2015 - Five Wave 2 "works in progress". Mar 2015 Apr 2015 May 2015 Jun 2015 Jul 2015 Aug 2015 - And counting...
That's why people are upset. Because communication during those empty white spaces have been all but non-existent. And no amount of cajoling, even from people who appear to have Palladium's ear, seems to matter worth a damn. They have the money (carrot), so now, for some people, they deserve the stick.
I'd have done it as a graphical timeline, but my graphic design skills are about on par with PB's scheduling ability. If anyone wants to turn that into a graphical representation, feel free.
Stealing from Morgan (it's what I do), quotes stripped for ease of use.
For further perspective;
Apr 2013 - Kickstarter Campaign Launches May 2013 - Kickstarter Campaign Concludes Jun 2013 Jul 2013 Aug 2013 - Gencon Round 1 ("Max/Miriya'gate") Sep 2013 - Pledge Manager Closes (everything still on schedule!) Oct 2013 Nov 2013 Dec 2013 - Rewards Due In Full (list should end here) Jan 2014 Feb 2014 Mar 2014 Apr 2014 - Ten Questions (still waiting on some answers). May 2014 Jun 2014 Jul 2014 - Wave 1 Production Begins Aug 2014 - Gencon Round 2 ("Delivery'gate") Sep 2014 Oct 2014 - Wave 1 Shipping Begins Nov 2014 - RRT delivered to North American retailers Dec 2014 - 1 Year Late. Jan 2015 Feb 2015 - Five Wave 2 "works in progress". Mar 2015 Apr 2015 May 2015 Jun 2015 - Wayne says he'll work on compiling wave two info Jul 2015 - RRT officially at Gencon, new products limited to "exclusive sculpts". Aug 2015 - We are here, half a year since Wave 2 info, nothing new to show off. Sept 2015 Oct 2015 Nov 2015 Dec 2015 - Current Delivery Target, 2 Years Late Jan 2016 Feb 2016 - Chinese New Year Round 3 Mar 2016 Apr 2016 May 2016 Jun 2016 Jul 2016 Aug 2016 - Gencon Round 4 Sep 2016 Oct 2016 Nov 2016 Dec 2016 - 3 Years Late.
I mean, there's piles more we can add to this, including the revelation from John that wave two files were delivered sometime in 2014, and how many newsletters and updates in each of those.
Hell, it might not be a bad idea to start something compiling all these with easily searchable keywords. I know I tire of re-google'ing repeatedly the quotes and dates that things were said whenever someone decides to challenge a statement (and while I've made mistakes on particulars, I like to think I've been right more often than I've been wrong here).
Ponder this much; this project started around, what, Robotech's 27th anniversary? And it's now the 30th? How much longer before backers are allowed to be frustrated and pushing with more than polite requests for info that go unanswered? The 35th anniversary? 40th? Shall we meekly sit back while PB takes 5 years to deliver? 10? 20? Does a yearly "nothing new to deliver, but at least we're still not taking as long as Duke Nukem Forever" suffice to cover their contractual obligations?
Asterios wrote: well how do I start this off, hmm, oh ok, yeah:
1: Mike your an enabler, you enable PB to continue doing what they are doing and allowing them to do it, you enable them by helping them, its one thing if you were doing what your doing and PB was also doing something, but they are doing nothing and letting you do all the work.
2: people keep worrying about lawsuits and trying to get people from doing a lawsuit, wake up and smell the roses, the lawsuits are a non-issue, the AG's are coming in, they are not going to sue Palladium they are going to fine Palladium and if they have to sell off every scrap of paper Palladium has to get those fines they will, and these fines have priority over any outstanding debt, even pre-orders and such, and those who filed with their various states AG's will be paid out of those fines collected.
3: Quit whining at the backers filing with the BBB and the AG, its out of their hands now, the only one who can fix this now is PB and PB only, so go whine to PB and tell them to fix this or they are screwed.
4: quit blaming the backers who filed with the BBB and the AG's 2 years is long enough to get reamed by PB if you want to keep getting reamed by PB then good for you and suck it up.
5: on a bright (or dark depending on your point of view) note, all it will take is one more update by PB about conventional crap or sizing or what have you and not about actual wave 2 information that will turn the tide and the angry mobs will start coming out in force, and the mass filings with the BBB and the AG will began.
Yes, we know because you Rick are so reasonable and never piss anyone one off and work so well with others.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: Well, enabling or not the one question that we keep dancing around is this:
When would delivery of wave 2 become a priority to Kevin?
The answer is scary since his pride and joy RPG products take half a decade or more to complete.
- He has our money.
- It costs him money every step until he has something to sell.
- Sales have been "disappointing" at every turn.
- Backers have complained about everything they have done.
- Forums have picked up again about the mystery that is wave 2 there is "buzz".
- He is able to advertise new product to a known interested customer base.
- The complaining lacks "teeth" so a little customer trolling is therapeutic.
- KS lacks teeth: they got their money too.
It really comes down to legal motivation or a cattle prod to bring about any movement from that direction.
One other thing is that many cases are resolved by a "settlement" so if a backer is proceeding with a legal action, they could dictate terms of how wave 2 proceeds.
If PB can survive the lawyer case prep time costs then there is a chance of the project continuing with newfound motivation.
Pretty much...there is a chance to push, I agree with that, but with the past history, I think it more likely to kill the project. PB has never been known to work timely and efficiently. I've heard that it has been worse in the last 10 years or so.
Asterios wrote: well how do I start this off, hmm, oh ok, yeah:
1: Mike your an enabler, you enable PB to continue doing what they are doing and allowing them to do it, you enable them by helping them, its one thing if you were doing what your doing and PB was also doing something, but they are doing nothing and letting you do all the work.
2: people keep worrying about lawsuits and trying to get people from doing a lawsuit, wake up and smell the roses, the lawsuits are a non-issue, the AG's are coming in, they are not going to sue Palladium they are going to fine Palladium and if they have to sell off every scrap of paper Palladium has to get those fines they will, and these fines have priority over any outstanding debt, even pre-orders and such, and those who filed with their various states AG's will be paid out of those fines collected.
3: Quit whining at the backers filing with the BBB and the AG, its out of their hands now, the only one who can fix this now is PB and PB only, so go whine to PB and tell them to fix this or they are screwed.
4: quit blaming the backers who filed with the BBB and the AG's 2 years is long enough to get reamed by PB if you want to keep getting reamed by PB then good for you and suck it up.
5: on a bright (or dark depending on your point of view) note, all it will take is one more update by PB about conventional crap or sizing or what have you and not about actual wave 2 information that will turn the tide and the angry mobs will start coming out in force, and the mass filings with the BBB and the AG will began.
Yes, we know because you Rick are so reasonable and never piss anyone one off and work so well with others.....
mike you know my philosophy:
[MOD EDIT - YOU ARE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT OF THE TEXT IN PICTURES YOU POST - ALPHARIUS]
furthermore Wayne Just mentioned in the robotech uncensored group he is working on an update
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Once this hits a courtroom situation there's no way any of the backers are going to get anything (other than perhaps a warm feeling that they've killed Palladium)
So whatever you decide to do, do not do so in the expectation of getting any cash back, it's just not going to happen, leaving things alone may well be distasteful but is the best chance of backers ending up with something (eventually)
Bad business should not exist as such - that's why bankruptcy looms in the background, as counterpoint to success and profit.
If Palladium will not deliver Wave 2, I have no problem seeing them burn.
As interested parties, backers have an interest in the case, and they should demand that Palladium be liquidated in order to remunerate a proportional amount to each backer. If that ends up being pennies on the dollar, that's objectively better than nothing.
I agree, if there is no intention on completing wave two and I was aware of it I would separate ties on the spot.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: Stealing from Morgan (it's what I do), quotes stripped for ease of use.
For further perspective;
Apr 2013 - Kickstarter Campaign Launches
May 2013 - Kickstarter Campaign Concludes
Jun 2013
Jul 2013
Aug 2013 - Gencon Round 1 ("Max/Miriya'gate")
Sep 2013 - Pledge Manager Closes (everything still on schedule!)
Oct 2013
Nov 2013
Dec 2013 - Rewards Due In Full (list should end here) Jan 2014
Feb 2014
Mar 2014
Apr 2014 - Ten Questions (still waiting on some answers).
May 2014
Jun 2014
Jul 2014 - Wave 1 Production Begins
Aug 2014 - Gencon Round 2 ("Delivery'gate")
Sep 2014
Oct 2014 - Wave 1 Shipping Begins
Nov 2014 - RRT delivered to North American retailers
Dec 2014 - 1 Year Late.
Jan 2015
Feb 2015 - Five Wave 2 "works in progress".
Mar 2015
Apr 2015
May 2015
Jun 2015 - Wayne says he'll work on compiling wave two info
Jul 2015 - RRT officially at Gencon, new products limited to "exclusive sculpts".
Aug 2015 - We are here, half a year since Wave 2 info, nothing new to show off. Sept 2015
Oct 2015
Nov 2015
Dec 2015 - Current Delivery Target, 2 Years Late
Jan 2016
Feb 2016 - Chinese New Year Round 3
Mar 2016
Apr 2016
May 2016
Jun 2016
Jul 2016
Aug 2016 - Gencon Round 4
Sep 2016
Oct 2016
Nov 2016
Dec 2016 - 3 Years Late.
I mean, there's piles more we can add to this, including the revelation from John that wave two files were delivered sometime in 2014, and how many newsletters and updates in each of those.
Hell, it might not be a bad idea to start something compiling all these with easily searchable keywords. I know I tire of re-google'ing repeatedly the quotes and dates that things were said whenever someone decides to challenge a statement (and while I've made mistakes on particulars, I like to think I've been right more often than I've been wrong here).
Ponder this much; this project started around, what, Robotech's 27th anniversary? And it's now the 30th? How much longer before backers are allowed to be frustrated and pushing with more than polite requests for info that go unanswered? The 35th anniversary? 40th? Shall we meekly sit back while PB takes 5 years to deliver? 10? 20? Does a yearly "nothing new to deliver, but at least we're still not taking as long as Duke Nukem Forever" suffice to cover their contractual obligations?
Should we start a pool on this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: as a small digress...interesting take on the new Mecha designs for anyone interested.
Mike1975 wrote: Pretty much...there is a chance to push, I agree with that, but with the past history, I think it more likely to kill the project. PB has never been known to work timely and efficiently. I've heard that it has been worse in the last 10 years or so.
I can honestly say that this project does not mean as much to me as it may for others, even though it was a favorite childhood show.
I refuse to be held hostage.
I also refuse to listen to another bloody "soon" which is a blatant lie, I do not care how vague the word is.
Why even bother saying it that often?
It is either a poor taste means of drawing out anticipation or trolling.
I cannot see PB ever admitting to killing the project ever, decided or not.
This is how they keep the attention of the fanboys for the next lauded and anticipated RPG book for a decade or so.
It is the refusal to share simple status details that has cemented in my mind they are shooting for the "long haul" or not at all.
Now is a wonderful time for gaming, Gencon has shown general numbers are up, I refuse to support an unworthy business just because they happen to have an IP I like.
I could have sworn a week ago I was willing to let things ride till June next year... what happened?
Like, flat out, if PB doesn't want to see this killed, they should be showing off every last thing they can to prove that the project is seeing progress. Work in progress shots, renders, prototypes, cocktail napkin doodles, whatever.
10 weeks of silence from Wayne, 6 months of lacking tangible progress from the project, and every day going forward that they don't put up a good solid chunk of info damns them all the more.
Mike said that Wayne is allegedly working on an update.
I'll believe that it qualifies as any of this when it isn't just another "omg you gusy working so hard much Robotech such 100 hour weeks wow" that's all but its own meme at this point.
Forar wrote: Mike said that Wayne is allegedly working on an update.
There's working on an update and working on an update that we, as backers, actually want to see that contains pertinent info on the remaining massively delayed kickstarter rewards. I don't give a rat's ass if Wayne is working ZOMG so hard! on an update about new Robotech fleece pullovers or putting the finishing touches on the stats on the newest conventional vehicle, the weaponized infantry segway (only $10 each, sorry valued Robotech backers only!).
2: people keep worrying about lawsuits and trying to get people from doing a lawsuit, wake up and smell the roses, the lawsuits are a non-issue, the AG's are coming in, they are not going to sue Palladium they are going to fine Palladium and if they have to sell off every scrap of paper Palladium has to get those fines they will, and these fines have priority over any outstanding debt, even pre-orders and such, and those who filed with their various states AG's will be paid out of those fines collected.
3: Quit whining at the backers filing with the BBB and the AG, its out of their hands now, the only one who can fix this now is PB and PB only, so go whine to PB and tell them to fix this or they are screwed.
4: quit blaming the backers who filed with the BBB and the AG's 2 years is long enough to get reamed by PB if you want to keep getting reamed by PB then good for you and suck it up.
5: on a bright (or dark depending on your point of view) note, all it will take is one more update by PB about conventional crap or sizing or what have you and not about actual wave 2 information that will turn the tide and the angry mobs will start coming out in force, and the mass filings with the BBB and the AG will began.
No real dog in this fight, since I have most of what I paid for, but I find it amusing how you keep trying to deflect any responsibility for the various Attorney Generals being involved. They didn't come to you, you went to them. Take some responsibility for your actions. Or, as you so eloquently put it: "Suck it up buttercup". You made the move, now own the consequences.
Taarnak wrote: No real dog in this fight, since I have most of what I paid for, but I find it amusing how you keep trying to deflect any responsibility for the various Attorney Generals being involved. They didn't come to you, you went to them. Take some responsibility for your actions. Or, as you so eloquently put it: "Suck it up buttercup". You made the move, now own the consequences.
I believe the responsibility being pointed to is for PB to have done nothing wrong.
With their behavior, what are the odds?
They in particular will "own the consequences".
Either way, slim hope for wave 2.
~Eric
I must ask: what hopes were there really?
Not within 5 years without a sharp kick to the rear.
PB needs to find their motivation or we will not see Jack-all as demonstrated for 5-6 months.
Maybe PB will only serve the purpose as a cautionary tale for thinking KS money is free money.
Fantastic to hear Kevin has unleashed the hound... minio.... sacrif... umm..Wayne to do some damage cont.... ah, spin.... "an update".
On the KS site??
We may get a lashing tale of haters gonna hate and a possible thanks for our patience. Wow, I am a bit of a flame monster lately... not on you guys however.
No real dog in this fight, since I have most of what I paid for, but I find it amusing how you keep trying to deflect any responsibility for the various Attorney Generals being involved. They didn't come to you, you went to them. Take some responsibility for your actions. Or, as you so eloquently put it: "Suck it up buttercup". You made the move, now own the consequences.
Either way, slim hope for wave 2.
~Eric
oh yeah me and several others have filed with the AG's of our respective states, my point is we cannot call them off now, they are on the trail and it is up to PB to put up or shut up.
ok first all just heard someone got an e-mail from drivethru RPG that their system was hacked and peoples credit card information was accessed furthermore it seems the main mod sees no reason to warn the Palladium forums, here is the discussion:
Spoiler:
Steve Celentani Yay!
Just got an email from drivethru, they got hacked
Credit cards are compromised.
Not the way I want to be approached by Marc Miller of all people.
Any of you guys get this?
Worst of all it happened 2 month back!
58 mins · Like
Richard Steinberg drive thru ?
56 mins · Like
Steve Celentani drivethrurpg.com
DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!
DRIVETHRURPG.COM
51 mins · Like
Richard Steinberg has the members of the Palladium forums been informed?
50 mins · Like
Steve Celentani I dunno, Im not registered there
42 mins · Like
Jeff Nmi Ruiz Why would the forums have anything to do with drivethrurpg.com ?
DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!
DRIVETHRURPG.COM
8 mins · Like
Richard Steinberg well considering PB keeps sending people there for the PDF's of Palladium Products.
7 mins · Like
Steve Celentani Because Palladium only uses them for their PDFs.
7 mins · Like
Jeff Nmi Ruiz And that explains how the forums are themselves involved how?
2 mins · Like
Richard Steinberg seriously NMI are you drunk or? its called warning people in the Palladium community that went to drive thru to get Palladium book PDF's that their credit cards may have been hacked.
I must ask: what hopes were there really?
Not within 5 years without a sharp kick to the rear.
PB needs to find their motivation or we will not see Jack-all as demonstrated for 5-6 months.
I agree with you that this is all on PB. I meant slim hope with or without the AGs involvement.
Cyporiean wrote: On the subject of DriveThru, anyone who *might* have had an issue was emailed about it weeks ago.
well the guy who posted in the uncensored group said he just got that mail, so i'm thinking either it happened again or its much bigger then they thought?
A fine case of "careful what you wish for".
I think they were looking for less conversation with us.
They are too used to dictating things on their terms.
They take no ownership for their decisions.
It is time they are taken to task.
I really need to talk to my accounts receivable person and see what is needed to sick a collections agency on someone.
I would throw in extra money for a transcript of any conversations made when calling them up.
Just looking at how to proceed if the reply to the BBB from PB is less than optimal.
Are you a bad person if you reserve your more nasty actions on the deserving?
No, that is called justice as long as it is legal. In any case, thanks for posting the drivethrurpg hack info as I didn't know it happened. I did a quick check and it looks like I only ever used paypal there (no cc info on file... unless they mass deleted it after the hack).
I regret to inform you that one of our servers suffered a security breach which may have compromised your credit card information.
You are receiving this email because you elected to store your credit card number on our server for future purchases. We store these numbers encrypted on our site, and we have no evidence the stored numbers were compromised during the breach. It is possible, however, that the encrypted numbers could have been copied and un-encrypted. We do not store your CVV code (the digits on the back of your credit card), making it difficult for the hacker to use your card number for online fraud. So while we think the data was not compromised, we wanted to inform you of the possibility. It would be safest if you contact your credit card issuer and ask for a replacement card. At the very least, you should check your card for any suspicious charges occurring on or after July 6th.
Our technical team has identified the issue and has secured our servers. Our websites are once again safe to use.
Information such as your name and email address were potentially compromised as well.
Login passwords are stored encrypted with a one-way hash and cannot be decrypted. You do not need to change your account password, but you are more than welcome to do so on your Account page at any time if you wish.
We are truly sorry this incident occurred and sincerely regret the inconvenience it causes you. Navigating credit card company call center menus is no one\'s idea of a good time.
Security has always been our top concern and up until this incident we were proud of our security record at . We will continue to do everything we can to keep our marketplace secure going forward.
In summary, in the FTC's own words:
"According to Jessica Rich, director
of the FTC’s Bureau of
Consumer Protection, “Many consumers
enjoy the opportunity to
take part in the development of a
product or service through crowdfunding,
and they generally know
t h e re’s some uncertainty involved
in helping start something new …
But consumers should be able to
trust their money will actually be
spent on the project they funded.”
I could go further but will leave that there for now.
Probably not in either case. In your example, we'll likely have a weekly update telling us about a Robotech Legal Defense FundTM where we can send money again with no guarantees of getting anything in return (just like the KS according to the white knights!).
n815e wrote: I wonder, if the FTC/AG investigate Palladium and find they've done nothing worth pursuing, will you be satiated?
I wonder that myself, good question.
Desired outcomes I list here that does not have to match yours:
1) If they spent most of their KS on retail stock or Kevin's <insert expensive personal item here> and crippled the wave2 commitment, they should be penalized AND I want my money. Possible overly zealous need to punish greed?
2) If they were diligently spending and working on wave 2 "no harm no foul" why? Goodness why keep it secret? Twisted stuff but ok, keep calm carry on. Still some concern over completion date before the heat-death of the universe. BUT yay! more Robotech stuff!!!!!
3) They plain-old ran out of money, poor budgeting, costs spiraled out of control: a likely outcome, ran afoul of their poor planning, it would be perceived as kinda sad and I would not be seeking a "pound of flesh". Will still harbor some resentment by the cover-up but rather expected. At this point, I would not particularly care about the money. Plus some possible forlorn hope of more Robotech stuff coming out.
Is your curiosity satiated of the character or honesty of these efforts?
Update to research:
Canadian consumer law in regard to kickstarters suck large.
The Consumer Protection Act is OK, the "Internet Agreements" section give some guidance but the "definition" of a consumer gets muddled due to the KS backing of a business or project.
The discussion I had with that department rep says that the concept is too new and no precedence's are set.
So it means grabbing the ear of a higher up to get them thinking this is going to be a future problem and start addressing now.
I really am running into a social psychology 101 condition:
If you see or hear a reportable situation NEVER assume someone else called it in: they are thinking the same.
It is a bit dramatic but:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burk"
What is making these efforts rather disproportionate is that I like puzzles and this one is a whopper.
as the situation stands, PB has but a few months to do either:
1: Show wave 2 being worked on (and were not talking pretty pictures of 3D CAD drawings either, but physical proof).
2: Hush the dissenters and those who have filed with either refunds, or some other agreeable deal for both parties.
3: or Make a call out to their fans that the government is gonna take their money and they need money to stay open and hire lawyers.
#3 is the most likely choice PB will do, curious if Kevin ever called those NG backers like he said he was ?
furthermore if PB has the AG's go after them, right now its only in the inquiry stage, but if it progresses, PB will no longer have the refund option, nor the show wave 2 proof since they will still be fined (see washington card game still fined even though product was shipping to backers).
I also filed with the BBB back on Aug 12th and received confirmation from the BBB that they passed the complaint on to PB on Aug 14th. As of now I still haven't received a response back despite others receiving one who I believe filed after me. My complaint was in the vein of no communication, no transparency and zero "showable" work for Wave 2. I'm curious if that was the same complaint others filed or was it more in the vein of "I didn't get my stuff?" Not sure why others got a response but not me :(
I would be as well. While I'm very disappointed in how pb has handled this. I most likely wouldn't pursue it any further, depending on the ftc and AG recommendation. If they are cleared of any criminal wrong doing, I'd leave it at that.
wyatt wrote: I would be as well. While I'm very disappointed in how pb has handled this. I most likely wouldn't pursue it any further, depending on the ftc and AG recommendation. If they are cleared of any criminal wrong doing, I'd leave it at that.
the FTC is vague and fickly, but with the AG's if all product hasn't been delivered after 2 years from initial payment then they will find PB in error.
The thing I've been fighting for the whole time is just for PB to communicate and be transparent. I'm not interested in "justice" or getting my money back. Ultimately it would be nice to get the Wave 2 product - but even if the project failed, just step up and act like adults.
But no, they will not do so, which is just baffling. You have option A. Save your project and retain your user-base by taking 5-10 minutes every couple of weeks and post an update ... or B. Do nothing, lose your user-base and potentially incur legal action.
Can anyone offer a rational explanation of why they still refuse to update even in the face of possible legal action?
The parting line in the last two updates seem to imply they think it's funny to not keep us updated on progress. NMIs comments seem to imply an attitude of haha, we don't have to tell you anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm also reminded of the attitude of the guy who was helping PB pack orders towards backers when it was revealed retail before backers.
Will anyone be satisfied if it was legally yes, maybe, but morally? Anyone dare to defend the morals of PB at this point?
I think everyone has been pretty vocal to PB to just keep us in the loop. I've backed 40+ KS projects and a couple are 4-5 years late and it doesn't bother me at all as the creators communicate and show work. Even the fact that PB can't copy & paste their "Soon" updates from the newsletters to the Kickstarter page is pretty baffling.
My gut feeling is that they're just embarrassed because there's no money and they can't make anything happen or more likely they're scrambling about trying to get anyone to make some physical prototypes so they can try and show some work (and based on their attitude lately, it would be of the "nya, nya you were wrong" variety). Ultimately, with that poor attitude and treatment of backers, even if they showed some work my guess would be that it's just in the attempt to stave off legal repercussions and not due to any real progress.
Joyboozer wrote: NMIs comments seem to imply an attitude of haha, we don't have to tell you anything.
I am so happy I have not seen anything looking like that, it may be best not to point me in that direction either.
Right now I am looking at this as a "challenge".
I am very afraid if I take this on as a "crusade".
Yes, I do hope he is not appearing that petty because then I would have to prove him wrong.
Anyway, deep breaths and more digging: I had no idea all these government systems had all this stuff in them.
What I find incredibly funny is when I start quoting an "Act" or something on that department's website and the civil servant has no idea what I am talking about and have to walk them through it.
I think some laws are passed with the intention that no-one would actually use them other than the occasional lawyer.
So the highest form of being an anarchist is to strictly adhere to the law... madness!
But oddly fun!
Rules lawyering at it's epic level.
(BTW: I do not do this while gaming, I like my opponent to enjoy the game as well...)
Joyboozer wrote: Can anyone offer a rational explanation of why they still refuse to update even in the face of possible legal action?
Same way fraud (the non-premeditated kind) always happens. Someone is falling just a bit behind. So they lie and say they aren't behind. By the time of the next update, they are now farther in the future, and while they made up some ground, they still aren't as far along as they should be for Week Two update, so they lie again, intending to make up the time. But it doesn't change the fact that they're behind 2*X time units.
Eventually, by week 75 or so, they're behind 75*X time units.
But they're always certain that they will make up their shortfall, if you give them just another week. Somehow, they're certain that THIS week will be different.
It doesn't matter if it's PB, an investment scheme that starts off legit but finds out that certain gains are expected, or a store manager who is expected to grow his store's revenue 10% a year. They're hoping to get lucky and have their deficits magically disappear due to a lucky break.
That's why "Golly, we're so generous we're extending Gen Con exclusives to our backers! Buy now!" turns into "We're so generous we're EXTENDING THE DEADLINE! BUY NOW! THIS ISN'T DESPERATION, EVEN THOUGH IT SEEMS LIKE IT IN ABSOLUTELY EVERY WAY!"
Joyboozer wrote: Can anyone offer a rational explanation of why they still refuse to update even in the face of possible legal action?
Same way fraud (the non-premeditated kind) always happens. Someone is falling just a bit behind. So they lie and say they aren't behind. By the time of the next update, they are now farther in the future, and while they made up some ground, they still aren't as far along as they should be for Week Two update, so they lie again, intending to make up the time. But it doesn't change the fact that they're behind 2*X time units.
Eventually, by week 75 or so, they're behind 75*X time units.
But they're always certain that they will make up their shortfall, if you give them just another week. Somehow, they're certain that THIS week will be different.
It doesn't matter if it's PB, an investment scheme that starts off legit but finds out that certain gains are expected, or a store manager who is expected to grow his store's revenue 10% a year. They're hoping to get lucky and have their deficits magically disappear due to a lucky break.
That's why "Golly, we're so generous we're extending Gen Con exclusives to our backers! Buy now!" turns into "We're so generous we're EXTENDING THE DEADLINE! BUY NOW! THIS ISN'T DESPERATION, EVEN THOUGH IT SEEMS LIKE IT IN ABSOLUTELY EVERY WAY!"
don't forget the flash sales and the sale prices at GC and so forth too.
Merijeek wrote: That's why "Golly, we're so generous we're extending Gen Con exclusives to our backers! Buy now!" turns into "We're so generous we're EXTENDING THE DEADLINE! BUY NOW! THIS ISN'T DESPERATION, EVEN THOUGH IT SEEMS LIKE IT IN ABSOLUTELY EVERY WAY!"
Well, part of that is "It'll take us a week or two to get the stats up" for the conventional forces, which has turned into what, 10 weeks and counting. Despite Mike stating the last draft was handed in July 10th? Sure, GenCon was going to be a factor, but it's been a full three weeks since that finished. It's their inability to work to a schedule that's one of the primary reasons they're failing (the others being their silence, and their quality, but that last one is subjective).
There's a guy on the KS Comments (SleeplessKnight), who purchased some, and is curious why they haven't shipped. That's because they're not finished yet. Even though the actual figures are a part of GHQ's standard line (to my knowledge). All PB has to do is do the stat cards, and it's done.
But it's like the Wayne Update mention. He started working on it before lunch yesterday. It's now almost 8pm the following day. That says a tonne about their ability to work to a schedule.
- They recognize that there has been "a lot of increasingly nasty chatter".
- They focus a large paragraph on how they haven't misappropriated funds, like, at length. Great.
- "Furthermore we have produced and shipped ... (Wave One) around the world". They also took like 9 months to do so for the poor ROW folks. Reminding people of Wave One will play well to US backers, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few international folks choke on that bit of back patting.
- He goes into detail regarding the infamous 98% comment. A shame it was because they were so confident you see, saying such things long before they were remotely near production! It's easy to be confident when you have thousands of nerds throwing big wads of money at you. Maybe a little restraint would've been a better idea!
- Maybe they... they care too much! *sniff*
- Oh they're keeping the convention exclusives available for the backers! We called it (I know I and others totally knew that extension would happen). But now it seems to be indefinite! Remember when they totally couldn't let us get Max or Miriya for reasons, well it seems now suddenly my money is good again! Feth that.
- Conventional forces talk. They go on at length about how they need to gauge interest. A) other than the Cats Eye and Commanchero, this gak already exists! Ordering a bunch from GHQ and slapping an RRT sticker on it (while adding to the price per unit) isn't doing us a giant favour, and at this point buying things sight unseen (in terms of stats) isn't at all sensible. They've been mere days from handing over the stats for months now. Just fething do it already. Oh no, 'the perfect' is truly the enemy of 'the good'!
- Mike Arnold remains a super-fan! Shout outs to super-fans!
- "Please have no doubt that we care about you, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and fulfilling this Kickstarter. In fact, one of the things that may be tripping us up and slowing us down the past six months, is that we may care too much." Copied and properly formatted for full effect. lawl.
- "It seems like no matter what we say or do, there are going to be angry and upset people who hate it and savage our every word, deed or image." This is true! So why have you spent the last 6 fething months being silent if all you're doing is punishing the entire community because some people are jerks on the internet? Y'know what would've made being a jerk on the internet harder? Having more things to talk about than how it'd been X months since the last substantial update.
- I swear this thing took 6 weeks because they had to pour over every last formatting. "Do we have all the ®'s and ™'s in place? How about bolding? More bolding. Always more bolding."
- And now they're martyrs. It was them! Always them! "nobody believed the RRT Kickstarter would be as big as it was; except for me, Kevin Siembieda." Dude, when you're referring to yourself by your full name as though it carries weight, you haven't been paying nearly enough attention to your audience. The die hard fans will lap it up, but ye gods I rolled my eyes there.
- Begging for help/support/people to buy stuff, followed by "As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016." You do know that's 4-7 months away, right?
- "We will be posting the following in the weeks ahead:
Actual cards for Wave Two game pieces. Force Organization Charts. Stats for Conventional Combat Vehicles (pre-Robotech). Expanded rules, errata, and clarifications. A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures will be made available online. More photos of painted minis. And we’ll try to do more updates."
Define "in the weeks ahead".
- "Ultimately, the fate of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ rests in your hands. It always has. We need you." Really laying it on thick for the base.
- EDIT AGAIN: Oh, and where the hell are the resin bits? Bases, SDF-1, Objective Markers?
*sigh*
Look, this so could have been avoided. Switch to a 2 updates a month schedule, something sustainable. TELL PEOPLE THAT. Trickle out something, anything, for each one. They had a good thing going last year, it wasn't much, but a previously unseen render goes a long way, and 6 months of silence does not. There is a middle ground. It doesn't need to be a weekly "nothing to report in" update, but a month and a half with nothing to say is terrible optics, no matter how they cut it.
I have absolutely complained about feeling like I needed to pull teeth to get info from them, and it shouldn't take a credible threat of legal action to get a bloody update with some info. That Miriya? That Khyron? They could've bought themselves a month or more with each of those alone! Infantry poses, great! Is it just me or does that Lancer look less 'stubby'? Maybe it's the angle, but from the other pics, the barrels don't seem nearly as tapered.
Edit: and yes, they are going to catch a lot of hell in the comments over this one. If instead of one 6 week wait for an update (and 6 months for info in general) it had been spaced out at about 1/4 of this per month, we wouldn't be here. People would still be angry, frustrated, hell some might even still be reaching out to the FTC/BBB/AG. But if they or their supporters want to embrace that venting as signs that the backer base can't be trusted or they get lashed at every time they speak up, they're ignoring the disease for the symptoms. If they want to put it right and rebuild what trust they had, they do need to turn the other cheek and deliver quality info (not necessarily GOOD info, but quality) month after month. They need to show they have listened, learned, and can apply that info to how they converse with their customers.
Seeing the initial anger (and it is already there) and saying "oh well I don't know what they want then" is to ignore *why* people are upset.
Was there anything new in the update? I feel like the renders were seen before as they have that very ND feel to them. Except NDs renders were supposedly handed to them last year.
Also this might be reading too much into things, but the Super VT, VEF-1/1D, and YF-4 show all 3 modes.
Rick and Roy only show the Battloid. While Rick's Fighter and Guardian could just be the regular F/G modes, Roy's Skull VT will need custom F&G modes.
And the campaign clearly states that Rick and Roy aren't just Max style custom Battloids, they include "___ in Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid modes (3 game pieces".
I gather they're using the old ND renders from the end of the initial campaign as guides, since apparently their manufacturer can't convert them to a usable format. In essence, the manufacturer is having to rebuild the model files from scratch on the other side of the sea, despite having over a year to work on them now.
Yegaads, does KS not get what folks have been asking for. It's like that damn Kirk meme - "I can't hear you over how awesome I am".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Y'know, I find it interesting that the Monster's eyes are molded into the design instead of being decals that would be added on...
Hard to tell the scale of the Monster, without knowing how big that base is - should be larger than the Glaug's if it is to approach the size of the 3D printed one in the glass case.
Y'know, I find it interesting that the Monster's eyes are molded into the design instead of being decals that would be added on...
Hard to tell the scale of the Monster, without knowing how big that base is - should be larger than the Glaug's if it is to approach the size of the 3D printed one in the glass case.
and yet the range is taken from the base and not the big cannons hanging out twice the size of the base away.
It's the very same render, you know, just positioned differently and sloppily put on a base. The upper left one is even the same pose in both.
As for the update... so many words, so little substance, plus trying to misdirect people looking for a real update on the status of the minis with 2 years-old renders... stay classy, PB.
Albertorius wrote: As for the update... so many words, so little substance, plus trying to misdirect people looking for a real update on the status of the minis with 2 years-old renders... stay classy, PB.
Most of what I'd have to say has already been said. But Albie's post covers it most succinctly.
I see there are a number of people leaping to PB's defence, and attacking the "haters". And with PB's own martyrdom in that regard, it's obvious they just. Don't. Get. It.
Nearly all of this would have been avoided if PB hadn't been incompetent in putting out reasonable updates on a reasonable schedule. But as far as they and their fans are concerned, anyone with a legitimate gripe is no different from the "angry and upset people who hate it and savage our every word, deed or image". No difference. Anyone not happy with everything? Lumped into that group. That these people put up on average several hundred dollars of their own money, just for the opportunity to savage them seems to escape Palladium. Sure, not every Dakka or PBForum poster is a backer, but everyone on the Kickstarter sure is.
One part I haven't seen covered, is early on in the post.
We have faced many unexpected challenges and met them head on to the best of our ability. In the process we have learned a lot and produced a damn good product with Ninja Division. As already explained in the past, our biggest stumbling block came right out of the gate, when tooling and engineering issues brought everything to a screeching halt.
Yes, it was explained in the past. But not AT THE TIME. In fact, if I recall correctly, it (EDIT: PB knowing of this issue) happened during the Pledge Manager. And not a word was said. I don't believe it was mentioned by PB until after the second or third delay (so, April 2014?). It definitely wasn't considered a big factor on September 26th, when they said "We are still shooting for a December ship date, but we don’t know yet if that’s a sure thing." and that was for the entirety of the pledge, even though anyone with even the most cursory checks would have known that was IMPOSSIBLE at the current situation. So, again, while the statement is "technically true", in that they had mentioned it prior to today, it's as misleading as feth.
Similarly, the "nothing new physically to show", yes, because nothing physical has been made. Technically true. But they're working on something, yes? Digital sculpts, sprue breakdowns, non-physical, but still tangible "progress". Show that. They did it before. They showed the digital sculpt of the Valkyrie Fighter Mode. EDIT: This one Show those, for the Wave 2 models that are most complete. Caveat them with the fact that they're still works in progress. Point out what's wrong that's stopped it from being approved for molding. Hell, it'd be part of the commitment to show "plenty of behind the scenes insight" that was mentioned in the Risks and Challenges on the front page of the Kickstarter. It doesn't need to be finished, approved, finalized, preprodproto'd, milled, and test sprued before you can show it to backers. Hiding behind "nothing physical" is just a cheap deflection.
Some disappointed people would like to paint me and Palladium Books as the uncaring and evil enemy.
Nope. Just short sighted, easily distracted, and petty. Which may sound like a personal attack, but there's enough evidence out there to show beyond a reasonable doubt that each characterization is accurate.
Ultimately, the fate of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ rests in your hands. It always has. We need you.
Yup. The game won't survive without an active player base. But it can't and won't do that in a vacuum. That "organized play" is still on the Soon(TM) thing, a year after release, and with seemingly no interest from PB in actually managing it, there's a limit to what people will do to promote a game. Sure, some people will take it on themselves, but those are exceptions, not the rule. Without active engagement from on high, volunteer elements working on their own initiative can at most (based on gaming history), forestall failure. It can't engender success.
Overall, the fact is, this is mostly like the MegaDoublePost. Some blame deflection (this time, including backers!), some meaningless background, and some promises for future commitments to punctuality and excellence that aren't worth the electrons they're printed on. Nothing tangible. Hell, he even admits that the digital sculpts shown, are ones that we've seen before. Out of five fingers, I rate this Update a one. The middle one.
"If a friend borrows $100 and you never see them again, consider it a wise investment!"
Well, if my pledge helped make it so that PB get this project so fethed that the American AG's bring down the company and prevent anyone else from going through this, I'm glad.
If I ever get any further product from PB, it'll be a miracle. The update is, as usual, empty rhetoric. Half an hour later, you need to read it again because you can't remember any of it.
Like, not just an adult, an adult that runs a company and employs other adults wrote that? I'd expect better excuses from a whiny teenager that just flunked their finals. No one with a shred of maturity makes or accepts excuses like that.
Really, I'm mad at myself. I was the idiot that game them money in the first place.
The pertinent parts I'd like to address in the Persecution Complex Update (as opposed to the previous 19 page History of Palladium one):
If there were ever any type of investigation, Palladium has accurate records, receipts, correspondences and documentation for every expense and transaction we’ve made regarding Robotech® RPG Tactics™. I have not spent the money on a new car or boat, there is no new house, no purchase of stocks and bonds, no salary raise, no luxury vacation (heck, no vacation at all), no parties, or any misuse of Kickstarter money whatsoever.
Of course, they chose the extremes just like before and not the single most common and majority theory over where the money went... extra wave 1 stock meant NOT for backers but for retail.
We are accused of being liars, incompetent, uncaring, and on and on.
Liars... So the project is 98% done and you've been working two years extra on that final 2%? When you promised both during the KS and then REAFFIRMED the promise that backers would absolutely get their rewards first before retail, you didn't try MULTIPLE times to break that promise? Incompetent... So taking 30 months or more to complete a project that you budgeted 6 months AFTER you fully knew the scope post funding is a sign of competence? Uncaring... 6 months of almost complete silence on the actual project at hand with an intervening promise to do better and to give detailed progress culminated with an update that literally trolled backers on purpose is how you "care"? If you weren't lying then by definition you were incompetent with the way this project has been delayed over and over. Your level and quality of communication has consistently also indicated you're either uncaring or incompetent as well. Pick two of three and you might have a basis for claiming you're not the third.
Sorry, Palladium, but over half that update is complete bs. I do appreciate the part that is not though with the actual renders although I'd much rather have sprue breakdowns or the exploding parts for the model for the models you ARE done with. I noticed they didn't confirm being actually done with any one model/sprue though sadly. Incremental progress on two dozen uncompleted models for 6 months is worse than having a few of them completed IMO. Rick and Roy look nice and I don't believe we've seen them before. Seeing the Supers and the VEF is nice as well. Those parts (minus the "woe is me!" drama) is the kind of updates you SHOULD have been doing on a monthly basis for the past 6 months assuming you were competent, truthful, and caring.
It's really interesting to note how much perception counts
Kingdom Death (which is just beginning to deliver it's first stuff) DID run out of money.....
the $2 million of KS money was not enough, and they proceded to throw in another $750,000 of their own money (from their normal releases) to finish things off
It's not impossible that if too many backers had got jumpy and asked for refunds, talked to AG,BBB, solicitors etc the whole thing could have fallen apart
but because Adam was careful with what he said (and when he said it), because the infrequent updates were packed with loads of interesting and relevant info, showing real progress each time, and because he carried on talking to and engaging the really interested backer in the KS comments (and lets face it these active backers are the ones most likely to act negatively if they get upset)
this didn't happen, people (including me) have largely been OK with the 2 year+ delay
Very practical comments all, thanks for the summary Forar with colour commentary... pretty much how I see things.
Well, what we get out of this update so far:
- Poked the bear and he is grumpy.
- Some fear of being investigated so trying to stave it off by saying the books are good and spending was appropriate.
- No word of out of money or spent it on retail stock.
- No evidence of being any further ahead in any way.
- Evident that they care about what is being said: they released that rant on a Wednesday! <gasp!>
Unfortunately I think this boils down to a non-answer other than a public commitment that wave 2 is important. Important enough to complete within 5 years or less is still unclear.
I will continue with my research and applying pressure because I suspect PB is figuring this massive "update" can buy another 5-6 months.
If by some miracle they refund my backer kit purchases, I may find myself in a difficult position since my only investment in all this would be the rewards.
Well, we will burn that bridge when we come to it.
Thanks all, you are good therapy.
Wow, it's a small world... wonder why I'm surprised not at all to see Jay Little "feeling your pain" to Kevin and calling the project backers "Rabid dogs... howling at the moon".
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just a 3D print of the figure. Aren't "master models" usually involved in spincasting? For steel molds, I thought they just milled out a hunk of metal and started pouring plastic into it.
It looks smaller and more toylike?
I don't know about toylike, but given that there's nothing there for scale other than the base, I can't really say if it looks 'smaller'. Even with the base, there's just not a lot of context to these pictures.
I believe the Officer's Pod Booster Sled and the MAC-II are the only figures that are on a 60mm base. Obviously the gun barrels will give it a much larger footprint on the table.
Edit: if that pic is correctly proportional, it's wider than the 60mm base. A quick and dirty comparison in Paint makes it appear about 40-50% wider at the widest point of the arms, so up to 3.5 inches across or so? And seems to be at least 2.5-3 inches tall or so? Again, assuming that the picture is proportional to the base. If not, our point of reference is way skewed.
I don't have my books on hand, not quite sure how that should compare to the book stats, but I remember someone with a ruler at Gen Con back in 2013 and some math showing that the MAC-II might be a wee bit smaller than perfectly to scale.
I was assuming it to be a 3-D master print at 100% size and detail, per the 3-D digital design.
Scale wise, I was going from the bases in the base game (Valk / Pod / Destroid), which would make the model a *lot* smaller than I had expected. If the base is larger 60mm diameter, then the overall size might be OK.
Really, I want the MAC-II to be in scale - that was the entire point of me ordering RRT, to have the various things in the same scale. If I just wanted a MAC-II, I would have spent it elsewhere.
So.. we have some bits of new info and it all seems too familiar. In an effort to try and learn from the past (something Palladium seems incapable of doing), I've decided to do some comparisons. With this update, we have:
Know that Palladium intends to get Wave Two out as quickly as we can, and ideally with much fewer pieces to assemble and without sacrificing detail. As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.
Ok... so we've got an update that is effectively close to a post summer/gencon update (so a full season or more to accomplish) predicting an end of the year or early next year delivery of Robotech Tactics rewards. I had some deja vu with that so did some digging and found this...
We are still shooting for a December ship date, but we don’t know yet if that’s a sure thing. What we do know is that Kickstarter backers will be shipped goods BEFORE we ship to distributors.
So a bit later (Sept 25th, 2013) but roughly the same thing. We have an estimate within 30 calendar days of the recent one from a different year telling us that we might get the rest of our stuff in the same estimated time frame in a different year. A little over a month after the above update (Nov 1, 2013), they revised it to February 2014. The reality is that it actually started shipping in August 2014 after gencon and didn't finish until around May (with Dakka's own HudsonD getting a shipping notification on 4/30/2015). So, when Palladium hopes to get it out at the end of the year or early the next near in or around September, the reality is that it is likely to take until the same time the next year or later depending on your location to get your items. This is of course dependant on whether Palladium has learned a few new things (unlikely), international issues (port strikes and fires), holidays (CNY), and even in this case the willingness of unpaid volunteers to ship out stuff for the $1.4 million project.
Let me be the first to predict that the great Gencon 2014 DebacleTM will have a successor in 2016.. if we're "lucky" and something new doesn't throw another unexpected wrench into the works.
IGotMoose wrote: But won't Kevin's "caring too much" cancel out all negativity??
If Kevin actually gave a damn about this game and cared about he would drop everything and devote everything to getting it done till it was done, the fact he only devotes maybe 1% of his time to the game and the rest to other gak says he doesn't give a rats behind and could care less about it and is just paying the backers lip service.
Asterios wrote: If Kevin actually gave a damn about this game and cared about he would drop everything and devote everything to getting it done till it was done, the fact he only devotes maybe 1% of his time to the game and the rest to other gak says he doesn't give a rats behind and could care less about it and is just paying the backers lip service.
I have a suspicion he has not played the game once.
It would not even be within the realm of his core focus of RPG.
The money has his attention, and the attention of customers = "priceless".
Unfortunately the game is losing it's shine and he is getting less interviews so unless he makes the connection: "more new product = more buzz" agreed, it may have low priority.
That is probably why these GHQ models came-up: it is an easy quick fix with the hopes we are sucker enough to buy a bunch of them.
I am unsure he even cares that much about lip-service as long as he has a captive audience to issue his decrees to.
IGotMoose wrote: But won't Kevin's "caring too much" cancel out all negativity??
Obviously the Siembiedassiah's love cures all. Though he suffered and was disparaged, he will rise again in 3 years post funding and lead us all to the promised wave (2). In the meantime, like he said in the update, "Purchase the exclusives and have fun with all of this"! (in that order)
I see PB (and therefore Kevin's) biggest fault to be he is a procrastinator - something I'm quite guilty of myself, I'll admit. For me, its something I've had to struggle with overcoming the last year or so, and I've lost all tolerance for it in others now. To me, filing with the AG and the BBB was a realization that the only way to get him moving was to put pressure on him. Using his own deadline and drawing a line in the sand to say "the buck stop here, you're not moving the goalposts any more" felt like the only thing I could do.
My patience with this project is gone; any other person working under someone else would have been fired as a project manager a long time ago. He's "fessing up" to mistakes and delays, but just doesn't internalize or believe that they ARE his fault and he's responsible for the state of malice towards the project.
I hope he keeps his promise of more dialog; maybe he'll get past his mad and actually start examining why we'll all so upset and how easy it could be to temper the rage. Somehow, I doubt it. Change isn't easy and the impression I get from the latest update is that no one would dare turn on him because he's invincible. He's wrong, I just hope he realizes it before its too late for him and his company.
Please keep in mind that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is not Palladium’s only product line or obligation to our fans. Our other product lines have also suffered long delays and painfully few releases as the demands of RRT keep us from making anybody happy.
goes and checks previous years releases and checks this years releases nothing changed there, so now hes blaming us for other areas not getting stuff too.
We care about you, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and its future. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or has an agenda to destroy this game, see the Kickstarter fail or take down Palladium Books. That last part may sound ridiculous, and in fact it IS ridiculous, but it’s true.
who does he think he is God? by the time me and other backers are done he will be lucky if he can borrow a dime.
Our distributors remain positive about Robotech® RPG Tactics™, and like everyone else, they want Wave Two and organized play (we’re working on both).
LoL well umm nuff said, LoL.
Our intention from the very beginning has been to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ something truly special. Epic. And fun. Of course, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We got off to a bumpy start regarding the initial product and the release of Wave 2. But we have NEVER wavered from our intention to give you a quality product and give you Robotech®. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is Robotech®.
and yet they do everything they can to not give us a quality product by going the cheap route.
We will be posting the following in the weeks ahead:
Actual cards for Wave Two game pieces.
Force Organization Charts.
already done by Mike
Stats for Conventional Combat Vehicles (pre-Robotech).
also done by Mike
Expanded rules, errata, and clarifications.
probably done by Mike
A free set of basic rules and paper miniatures will be made available online.
already done by Mike
More photos of painted minis.
done by fans and such
And we’ll try to do more updates.
yes lets hold our breath shall we?
Ultimately, the fate of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ rests in your hands. It always has. We need you. That’s why we funded RRT via Kickstarter. My thanks to the multitude of you who have supported Palladium on this Kickstarter and over the years. I hope that support for RRT continues. We look forward to getting Wave Two rewards into your hands, and much more for Robotech®.
can't support something we don't have all of and the supporters our dwindling with more angry backers appearing.
) and they got us boycotting it due to wave 2 rage.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
on 
several things I find funny in his update: