Vanquisher: If it's what you've got, go for it. It works as advertised, and is something the enemy is going to want gone. Use Multimelta sponsons. 132 + 25 + 20 + 20 + 20 = 217
Battle Tank: Like the overcharged Executioner, but worse.
Executioner: Go big, or go home. Also, go big at your own risk. Make sure it has a Tank Commander friend and isn't a Tank Commander in and of itself so it can receive Tank Orders to not blow up. Use Plasma Cannon sponsons. 132 + 20 + 20 + 15 +15 = 202
Demolisher: If it's the only thing you've got, okay. I would recommend a Vanquisher first, because it nets you only slightly worse performance for much less points. Use Multimelta sponsons, and go after tanks. 132 + 40 + 20 + 20 + 20 = 232
Eradicator: Like the Battle Tank, but much worse.
Exterminator: Like the Battle Tank, but worse.
Punisher: Take it if you want it. Use Heavy Bolters, keep it cheap. 132 + 20 + 8 + 8 + 8 = 176, pretty decent
Annihilator: Probably like the Vanquisher, but better. Use Multimelta sponsons.
Conqueror: Probably like the Battle Tank, but worse.
I noticed that you matched all your loadouts for similar roles. I am really starting to think that this is a 7th edition mindset. There really is no problem putting bolters on any variant, or a lascannon on a punisher for instance. Spreading weapons around your army means that it is harder for the enemy to focus down the thing most dangerous to them, and lets you fire your AT guns one at a time instead of guessing how many shots a target needs with split fire.
I always find Russ gun options one of the most interesting parts of a new Guard codex, and have gone through many iterations over the years. I think that mixed loadouts are going to be overlooked because they were never something that people considered, yet are now really powerful. The lascannon/bolter is seeming really nice right now. If you have a LRBT with that loadout (pretty much the most classic Russ you can get) then it is a really balanced unit that can deal with anything.
Perhaps, but I'm generally more a fan of having one antitank tank and one antipersonnel tank instead of two tanks that are less kind of bad at both tasks.
Also, I'd rather unload into two transports with my split fire ability and have the option to unload all my guns into one transport if it absolutely has to die so the consort tank can take out the guys inside of it that fire my AT guns at a transport, not kill it, have no target for the other guns, then activate the consort tank and fire it's AT guns at the still-alive transport and not be able to shoot the guys who get out.
If you're going to compare the offensive output of, say 3 heavy weapon teams with 9 lascannons total to a Russ then you should also compare their defensive ability. It's not far fetched to imagine that those 3 HWTs will likely die in one turn. You won't be going first as infantry IG, so they won't get to do anything period if your opponent doesn't want them to. The Russ reduces your total drops and very likely will survive the first turn even if you go second. The importance of advantages like these shouldn't be underestimated.
Otto von Bludd wrote: If you're going to compare the offensive output of, say 3 heavy weapon teams with 9 lascannons total to a Russ then you should also compare their defensive ability. It's not far fetched to imagine that those 3 HWTs will likely die in one turn. You won't be going first as infantry IG, so they won't get to do anything period if your opponent doesn't want them to. The Russ reduces your total drops and very likely will survive the first turn even if you go second. The importance of advantages like these shouldn't be underestimated.
Sure sure. But as I said, survivability isn't worth a thing if there's no incentive to shoot at you except as a target of opportunity for units with nothing better to do.
Pseudomonas wrote: Pure infantry armies don't seem to be easy to build anymore given the lack of infantry platoons and limited troop choices with battleforged armies. Platoon commanders being an elite choice doesn't help matters either.
If the rumors are true, we'll be seeing changes this weekend in the FAQ. I expect we will see a limit or some sort of restriction on company commanders & instead platoon commanders will become HQ choices.
What diffrence would it be to do this? It would change nothing and no other faction would have that restriction. I don't think anyone said anything was wrong with company commanders.
I noticed that you matched all your loadouts for similar roles. I am really starting to think that this is a 7th edition mindset. There really is no problem putting bolters on any variant, or a lascannon on a punisher for instance. Spreading weapons around your army means that it is harder for the enemy to focus down the thing most dangerous to them, and lets you fire your AT guns one at a time instead of guessing how many shots a target needs with split fire.
I always find Russ gun options one of the most interesting parts of a new Guard codex, and have gone through many iterations over the years. I think that mixed loadouts are going to be overlooked because they were never something that people considered, yet are now really powerful. The lascannon/bolter is seeming really nice right now. If you have a LRBT with that loadout (pretty much the most classic Russ you can get) then it is a really balanced unit that can deal with anything.
Perhaps, but I'm generally more a fan of having one antitank tank and one antipersonnel tank instead of two tanks that are less kind of bad at both tasks.
Also, I'd rather unload into two transports with my split fire ability and have the option to unload all my guns into one transport if it absolutely has to die so the consort tank can take out the guys inside of it that fire my AT guns at a transport, not kill it, have no target for the other guns, then activate the consort tank and fire it's AT guns at the still-alive transport and not be able to shoot the guys who get out.
The important thing is to always consider the ranges of your weapons. When your mix short/long range weapons you will always find yourself moving to get into position to maximize your hits. This will result in a +1 to hit. It is best to determine a tanks ideal range and attempt to make all your weapons effective at that range.
Sure sure. But as I said, survivability isn't worth a thing if there's no incentive to shoot at you except as a target of opportunity for units with nothing better to do.
This doesn't make any sense. (No offense.) The incentive to shoot at the 4 heavy weapons teams that the Russ is is the same as the incentive to shoot at any 4 heavy weapons teams. And oh its sitting over there on that objective.
Pseudomonas wrote: Pure infantry armies don't seem to be easy to build anymore given the lack of infantry platoons and limited troop choices with battleforged armies. Platoon commanders being an elite choice doesn't help matters either.
How many you want if you 36 troop choices in 2k game isn't enough?-)
So was watching one of the Frontline batreps and something struck me immediately at 2:50. They were talking about why their Scion list didn't have loads of command squads and mentioned it "may not be a good long term investment". That, combined with their reaction when talking about it, suggests to me that something is in the pipe for changing how Commanders work.
Otto von Bludd wrote: If you're going to compare the offensive output of, say 3 heavy weapon teams with 9 lascannons total to a Russ then you should also compare their defensive ability. It's not far fetched to imagine that those 3 HWTs will likely die in one turn. You won't be going first as infantry IG, so they won't get to do anything period if your opponent doesn't want them to. The Russ reduces your total drops and very likely will survive the first turn even if you go second. The importance of advantages like these shouldn't be underestimated.
Sure sure. But as I said, survivability isn't worth a thing if there's no incentive to shoot at you except as a target of opportunity for units with nothing better to do.
If it's so durable that no one ever fires at it, that guarantees that you can use that model for every turn of the game. 6 Battlecannon shots, 6 las cannon shots and 36 heavy bolter shots over the course of a game is way better than 3, 6, maybe 9 lascannon shots that 2 HWT squads will manage before they're dead.
Otto von Bludd wrote: If you're going to compare the offensive output of, say 3 heavy weapon teams with 9 lascannons total to a Russ then you should also compare their defensive ability. It's not far fetched to imagine that those 3 HWTs will likely die in one turn. You won't be going first as infantry IG, so they won't get to do anything period if your opponent doesn't want them to. The Russ reduces your total drops and very likely will survive the first turn even if you go second. The importance of advantages like these shouldn't be underestimated.
Sure sure. But as I said, survivability isn't worth a thing if there's no incentive to shoot at you except as a target of opportunity for units with nothing better to do.
If it's so durable that no one ever fires at it, that guarantees that you can use that model for every turn of the game. 6 Battlecannon shots, 6 las cannon shots and 36 heavy bolter shots over the course of a game is way better than 3, 6, maybe 9 lascannon shots that 2 HWT squads will manage before they're dead.
This.
I don't get the HWT vs LRBT comparison - you're comparing a tank (with decent shooting) to a glass cannon and then acting all dramatic when the glass cannon has better damage output for it's points. What a shocking revelation!
I'm open to the idea of allowing multiple infantry squads to be taken as a single troops choice, but is it balanced? See if they've playtested this system as much as they say they have I'm worried about tinkering with it.
I mean, sure, I guess. As I said, that just means the Tau big guns also got hit with the sledgehammer of impotency.
What it means is that nothing in the game turns out high volumes of damage quickly. Every gun is like this, in every faction.
Eldar Heavy Wraithcannon against LR: 3.14
This isn't true, though. There are plenty of things that churn out damage at an alarming rate.
The aforementioned 6x Lascannons. Or a squad of Dominions with Meltaguns.
Hell, even the Leman Russ Annihilator, and the Vanquisher, manage to at least perform as advertised. A Vanquisher or Annihilator with Multimeltas is worse than a pair of Devil Dogs or a squad of Dominions in a Multimelta Immolator, but it's not drastically worse and isn't an utter failure at everything.
The Vanquisher cannon is a big meltagun. We've got 3x Multimeltas and a Lascannon on a 220 point platform, versus 240 for 2+2D3 Multimeltas [2 Devil Dogs] or 6 BS3+ Meltaguns with Scout [Dominions].
Oh no! 6 guns are better than 1 gun!
That must mean the 1 gun is crap.
You are constantly taking the full cost of the gun and the platform it is on. Ignoring all or the defendive factors of the platform as "reactive"; then talking about how the same number of points in a series of much easier to remove platforms with multiple weapons has the same number of wounds without regard to toughness or save.
While lasguns can possibly kill the tank(with a ludicrous number of shots), those same lasguns are going to make far eaiser work of the hws, slightly easier work of the SoB with melta guns(who also have to get far closer), and will only have a tough time with the devil dog. But here is the other part you are ignoring: for all the damage each lascannon or meltagun can do, they can only ever kill 1 model per shot. The battle cannon can also, potentially, kill the same 6 models.
An interesting side effect of the higher offensive efficiency of transports and infantry based weapons is that most armies will necessarily gear weapons toward dealing with those threats. This decision magnifies the defensive power of the Leman Russ even more. Overcharged plasmas, meltas, and missile launchers are wounding on 4s, autocannons are wounding on 5s, that huge plethora of mass fire s4 weaponry is wounding on 6s.
Additionally, look at it this way. An autocannon heavy weapon squad and a heavy bolted heavy weapon squad are together 93 points. That's about half of what it costs to get a Leman Russ with 3 heavy bolters and the Exterminator autocannon with a storm bolter. The exterminator is just shy of equivalent firepower (prertty close to even if movement comes into play) for double the price. It is way, way tougher though. It has the same number of wounds as the heavy weapon team, but has a 3+ save and T8. If it can stay alive twice as long, it's made up it's cost. It's not readily obvious to me how likely this is, but it makes sense that you can leverage that toughness in army construction.
Sure sure. But as I said, survivability isn't worth a thing if there's no incentive to shoot at you except as a target of opportunity for units with nothing better to do.
This doesn't make any sense. (No offense.) The incentive to shoot at the 4 heavy weapons teams that the Russ is is the same as the incentive to shoot at any 4 heavy weapons teams. And oh its sitting over there on that objective.
Of course it makes sense. A Russ is about 200 points, yes? If you had to chose between removing it, or removing 8 Lascannon gun teams, which would you chose?
It's about 4 HWT's. 4 Lascannon HWT's cost about 96 points, versus 200. And while 4 HWT's are much less survivable, is the comparative resilience of the Leman Russ worth 100 points?
MaxT wrote:
If it's so durable that no one ever fires at it, that guarantees that you can use that model for every turn of the game. 6 Battlecannon shots, 6 las cannon shots and 36 heavy bolter shots over the course of a game is way better than 3, 6, maybe 9 lascannon shots that 2 HWT squads will manage before they're dead.
Damage on turn 1 is worth more than damage on turn 2, and damage on turn 6 isn't worth as much as damage on turn 5. I like Basilisks and Manticores and Wyverns for this reason.
Also, consider that it actually only takes 6 wounds to render a Leman Russ entirely unable to do anything. A tank doesn't have to die, it just needs to be rendered incapable of completing its mission.
6 AT guns losing one gun a turn may be far more valuable than 4 guns firing for all 4 turns. Keep in mind that turn 1 is your window to incapacitate assault transports. The value of a powerful opening salvo cannot be understated.
Kommissar Kel wrote:
Oh no! 6 guns are better than 1 gun!
That must mean the 1 gun is crap.
You are constantly taking the full cost of the gun and the platform it is on. Ignoring all or the defendive factors of the platform as "reactive"; then talking about how the same number of points in a series of much easier to remove platforms with multiple weapons has the same number of wounds without regard to toughness or save.
While lasguns can possibly kill the tank(with a ludicrous number of shots), those same lasguns are going to make far eaiser work of the hws, slightly easier work of the SoB with melta guns(who also have to get far closer), and will only have a tough time with the devil dog. But here is the other part you are ignoring: for all the damage each lascannon or meltagun can do, they can only ever kill 1 model per shot. The battle cannon can also, potentially, kill the same 6 models.
How, in any world, does it not make sense to evaluate the unit as a whole against other units that act in the same capacity and cost the same price? The Battle Cannon is crap as a weapon on the Leman Russ because you paid 162 points for a gun that does absolutely nothing.
And I didn't ignore the defensive factors, I said it's overrated. By that I mean that all things chronically overpay in points for resilience that goes unused.
Also, are you aware of the Battle Cannon's potential for killing 6 models? 0.00766%
If heavy weapons teams could take a battle cannon on their gun platform for 20 points, they'd probably still want a Lascannon too. I'm not comparing a Battle Cannon to 6x Lascannons, I'm comparing the damage output of a 162 point tank to the damage output of 144 points of guns teams, and the gun teams win fairly drastically in damage. If I bought a 162 tank, I want the enemy to at least care about it enough to shoot at it.
As I said, not all the Leman Russes are strictly terrible. The Punisher is quite good, and has to be dealt with. Just the Battle Cannon variant is.
With regards to the Vanquisher: It is strictly worse than my projection for the Annihilator, and it averages lower damage per turn than the battle cannon, but I like it's probability distribution better.
The Battle Cannon is crap as a weapon on the Leman Russ because you paid 162 points for a gun that does absolutely nothing. [...]
As I said, not all the Leman Russes are strictly terrible. The Punisher is quite good, and has to be dealt with. Just the Battle Cannon variant is.
I disagree. I think the Battle Cannon is better than both the Vanquisher Cannon, the Eradicator Nova Cannon and the ...whatever the Auto-cannon is called.
You say the LRBT's resilience goes unusued, well if your opponent isn't shooting at you, that LRBT will over the course of the game shoot 6D6 shots at S8 AP-2 D-D3.
Thats on average 21 shots, hitting on a mix of 4+ and 5+ depending on if you moved or not, so between 10,5 and 7 hits.
It's not amazeballs, but it can easily kill a enemy vehicle/MC or eve two with a bit of luck. Definately better than "absolutely nothing".
The Battle Cannon is crap as a weapon on the Leman Russ because you paid 162 points for a gun that does absolutely nothing. [...]
As I said, not all the Leman Russes are strictly terrible. The Punisher is quite good, and has to be dealt with. Just the Battle Cannon variant is.
I disagree. I think the Battle Cannon is better than both the Vanquisher Cannon, the Eradicator Nova Cannon and the ...whatever the Auto-cannon is called.
You say the LRBT's resilience goes unusued, well if your opponent isn't shooting at you, that LRBT will over the course of the game shoot 6D6 shots at S8 AP-2 D-D3.
Thats on average 21 shots, hitting on a mix of 4+ and 5+ depending on if you moved or not, so between 10,5 and 7 hits.
It's not amazeballs, but it can easily kill a enemy vehicle/MC or eve two with a bit of luck. Definately better than "absolutely nothing".
Killing an enemy transport on turn 6 is effectively "absolutely nothing". Killing an enemy monstrous creature on turn 4 is also effectively "absolutely nothing".
I'm generally interested more in the damage I can do in the first few turns. Alpha strike potential is extremely important. The Leman Russ Vanquisher has a much higher chance of crippling damage with its salvo than the Battle Tank does, and also has a higher chance of crippling damage on 2 targets. For this reason, I like it better than the Battle Cannon. It averages lower damage per turn, but averages don't tell you everything. The Annihilator is always better than the Vanquisher, but the Battle Tanks/Vanquishers can switch barrels while I don't have any Annihilators.
One thing that the Leman Russ does have going for it is drop reduction. A Leman Russ is getting you a better chance of going first, and getting more out of it's lesser firepower, than 2 heavy weapons sections. But I think you have to commit to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, the LGS is running a 500 point event tomorrow.
The question is, with the left over 14 points, would I rather upgrade the Command Tank to Pask or do something else? Pask is going to end up wasting one of the two Tank Orders a turn, but he'd get the Command Tank BS2+. BS2+ makes a hell of a difference for both the tank's resilience and the tank's firepower, and allows the Battle Cannon to get close enough to the Vanquisher Cannon at the high end for me not to prefer the Vanquisher anymore, and causes the Demolisher cannon to exceed the rest fairly drastically.
The Demolisher Cannon is 1.5 to 2 times as good at doing crippling damage, but is it worth the cost? With this set up, I'm sending one of Pasks orders to waste and I'm losing Deep Strike and good AP on the Scions, as well as the firepower of their Volleygun.
Leman Russ Battle Tank Pask Command Tank, Lascannon, Multimelta Sponsons, Heavy Stubber: 177+22+20+20+20+4=263 points
Leman Russ Punisher Tank, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Storm Bolter: 132+20+8+8+8+2=178 points
Militarum Tempestus Scions, Hotshot Volleygun: 45+1+1+1+1+9=58 points
I lose the firepower of the Demolisher cannon, and it's a fairly hard hit to my antitank capacity, but I can still crack open a transport a turn, but it's harder to cripple two. I'm not going to be getting good use of the range on the Battle Cannon, because Multimeltas, so I feel like I'm losing a lot, but is the exchange of power in my troops worth it?
Trickstick wrote: So was watching one of the Frontline batreps and something struck me immediately at 2:50. They were talking about why their Scion list didn't have loads of command squads and mentioned it "may not be a good long term investment". That, combined with their reaction when talking about it, suggests to me that something is in the pipe for changing how Commanders work.
Command squads and commanders are different units. Not sure how that would change commanders orders.
As I said in my previous thread which got locked and no one believed me, its rumoured command squads will be limited to 1 per commander, and conscripts will go up in points. The fact frontline are mentioning this only adds support to that rumour I heard at the start of the week...
The Battle Cannon is crap as a weapon on the Leman Russ because you paid 162 points for a gun that does absolutely nothing. [...]
As I said, not all the Leman Russes are strictly terrible. The Punisher is quite good, and has to be dealt with. Just the Battle Cannon variant is.
I disagree. I think the Battle Cannon is better than both the Vanquisher Cannon, the Eradicator Nova Cannon and the ...whatever the Auto-cannon is called.
You say the LRBT's resilience goes unusued, well if your opponent isn't shooting at you, that LRBT will over the course of the game shoot 6D6 shots at S8 AP-2 D-D3.
Thats on average 21 shots, hitting on a mix of 4+ and 5+ depending on if you moved or not, so between 10,5 and 7 hits.
It's not amazeballs, but it can easily kill a enemy vehicle/MC or eve two with a bit of luck. Definately better than "absolutely nothing".
It's all on 4+ because the LRBT turret weapon doesn't get the -1 to hit for moving.
One thing to keep in mind is that 4 lascannon HWTs do about 4 wounds to a LRBT and in return the LRBT does about 4 wounds to the HWTs. The HWTs are shooting at one of the tougher vehicles they may encounter, while the LR is shooting at the best target imaginable for it. And the HWTs are still more cost efficient per wound. They do lose effectiveness FAST, but for turn 1 alpha strike to wreck an opponent's plan, they work pretty well.
Something I think is more interesting is comparing LRBT to lascannons in infantry squads, as at 180pts you still get 3 lascannon shots, but you also have to remove 9 wounds before you can shut even one down. I think this gives them pretty good staying power compared to HWTs and even LRBTs, and you get a boatload of split-firing anti-infantry guns as well. .
I'm basically spitballing here, but if you want to improve vehicle alpha strike efficiency of vehicles, you could do worse than Hunter Killer Missiles. 6 points for a s8 d6 wounds attack seriously increase the first turn damage efficiency.
Biophysical wrote: I'm basically spitballing here, but if you want to improve vehicle alpha strike efficiency of vehicles, you could do worse than Hunter Killer Missiles. 6 points for a s8 d6 wounds attack seriously increase the first turn damage efficiency.
Unfortunately, Pask and Tank Commanders can't get a hunter-killer. Which kind of sucks.
I can definitely see Hunter-Killers being basically a mandatory upgrade to Manticores and AT tanks that don't plan to move, though. But don't stick them on anti-infantry vehicles and vehicles that have to move to get range.
You definitely don't want it on tanks that move on turn 1. You use the missile on turn 1, since by turn 2 it's too late to crack a transport. And since you activate a tank and declare targets for all its weapons before resolving them, you can't try to nick the last wound off a transport with one and then open up on its contents with your Punisher, so it should stick to tanks that are going to lose no efficiency if there's no infantry to shoot on turn one when they activate.
It might not be great on the Manticore, if the Manticore is out of LoS, though, but that's based on the amount of terrain there is on the board in individual metas.
It's all on 4+ because the LRBT turret weapon doesn't get the -1 to hit for moving.
You're right, I keep forgetting about the turret-rule.
I also agree with putting Lascannons in infantrysquads.
HWT-teams with Lascannon simply beg to be targeted and killed off in turn 1: "Hey, we do alot of damage and die easily to boot, please don't shoot us."
Jpr wrote: As I said in my previous thread which got locked and no one believed me, its rumoured command squads will be limited to 1 per commander, and conscripts will go up in points. The fact frontline are mentioning this only adds support to that rumour I heard at the start of the week...
Yeah definitely a bit of support from that. It isn't that what you said was super unbelievable, it is just you can't really believe every rumour that you come across. Especially when it is "friend of a friend" style. I hope you are wrong about the Conscripts though.
Although I am tempted to run my meta-busting armoured battle group list again. 8th being the "infantry edition" makes me want to run tri-flamer punishers and a shadowsword.
Swung by my FLGS to ask about the size of the games they'll run as part of the 8E rollout and they said "either 1000 points or 50 Power. We haven't decided yet."
Naturally I started tinkering with list building and I have to say, it's a very different point of view to look at it through the view of power level vs points... HWS w/ mortars don't look nearly as attractive for example, when I can get a HWS w/ lascannons for the same value or a Basilisk for two of them.
Veteran Squads don't seem half bad either, since I can load them up with a heavy flamer, three plasma guns, and a lascannon (and a vox caster because why not). Similarly, sergeants with plasma pistols and power weapons seem very worthwhile.
Aesthete wrote: Swung by my FLGS to ask about the size of the games they'll run as part of the 8E rollout and they said "either 1000 points or 50 Power. We haven't decided yet."
Naturally I started tinkering with list building and I have to say, it's a very different point of view to look at it through the view of power level vs points... HWS w/ mortars don't look nearly as attractive for example, when I can get a HWS w/ lascannons for the same value or a Basilisk for two of them.
Veteran Squads don't seem half bad either, since I can load them up with a heavy flamer, three plasma guns, and a lascannon (and a vox caster because why not). Similarly, sergeants with plasma pistols and power weapons seem very worthwhile.
Hmmmm...
Yeah, because power levels are a compromise between a stock unit and a fully-kitted unit, any unit that has tons of upgrade options (or has a very wide gap between its maximum and minimum costs) can get a lot of mileage out of power levels by taking all the most expensive gear it can get. Something that has no upgrade options at all on the other hand, gets screwed because they pay full cost either way.
However, doing so is a bit against the spirit of what power levels are for. Power levels are more meant for grabbing random models off a shelf and tossing them on a table as WYSIWYG, so building a list around them is just going to break them. For optimized lists, points are better for keeping shenanigans under control.
The HWS is a good example. The generally accepted conversion is around 20pts=1PL, since that's where stuff with no upgrades (like characters) tends to fall. Though some units are treated better than others, a special weapon squad is 3PL and only hits 60 points at its absolute maximum, with melta guns. So at 3PL a HWS is essentially "60 points" regardless of what it has (so its average got stuck on the high end, probably because three of its five options put it there). A mortar HWS is only 27 points though, while a lascannon HWS is 72 points. The spread on that is huge.
An infantry squad is also 3PL, but can be a minimum of 40 points for a bare-bones squad, or a maximum of 86 points with a lascannon, plasma pistol, power maul/sword, meltagun, and vox caster.
As you can see, power levels are just not meant for robust list building.
Depends on how you look at it. It's a quick and nice way to set up a battle without having to calculate all the points values, while still retaining some form of balance. If I walked into a store and met a friendly chap I'd like to a quick game with, power levels would allow us to quickly throw together some form of armies.
But if you want to play with even more balanced armies (in theory) or have greater control, it's probably not for you.
Biophysical wrote: I'm basically spitballing here, but if you want to improve vehicle alpha strike efficiency of vehicles, you could do worse than Hunter Killer Missiles. 6 points for a s8 d6 wounds attack seriously increase the first turn damage efficiency.
Unfortunately, Pask and Tank Commanders can't get a hunter-killer. Which kind of sucks.
I can definitely see Hunter-Killers being basically a mandatory upgrade to Manticores and AT tanks that don't plan to move, though. But don't stick them on anti-infantry vehicles and vehicles that have to move to get range.
You definitely don't want it on tanks that move on turn 1. You use the missile on turn 1, since by turn 2 it's too late to crack a transport. And since you activate a tank and declare targets for all its weapons before resolving them, you can't try to nick the last wound off a transport with one and then open up on its contents with your Punisher, so it should stick to tanks that are going to lose no efficiency if there's no infantry to shoot on turn one when they activate.
It might not be great on the Manticore, if the Manticore is out of LoS, though, but that's based on the amount of terrain there is on the board in individual metas.
Holy crap, I can't believe Tank Commanders don't get HKs. I never noticed. That just seems petty. I think you can do fine putting HKs on anti infantry tanks, though. Remember, you can just split fire. The old "box art" pattern Russ with Battle Cannon, Hull Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter sponsors, with a Storm Bolter/Stubber and Hunter Killer Missile might be a decent choice if youre taking the LR at all. You can put Lascannon and HK into armor, heavy bolters and Storm Bolter into infantry, and Battle Cannon into whatever is most important.
Power levels are actually pretty accurate. My friend and I both made 50 power level lists with whatever upgrades we wanted. We assumed 50 power level was roughly 1000 points and sure enough, after we totaled up points including upgrades, his 50 PL list was exactly 1000 points while mine was 1100. That's pretty impressive for how easy PLs make things. We had a very balanced game after.
Doctoralex wrote: So has anyone done the Math hammer on when you want to use the order for re-roll 1's to wound instead of reroll one's to hit?
I can't see any use for it...
Sure there are uses for it. Some characters such as Harker allow you to reroll 1's without using an order. You could then use the order to allow wound rerolls of 1's to help ensure the enemy unit is destroyed.
Hmm, well one factor (though one that won't show up much for IG) is when one of those rolls is on 2+.
Nearly all of our sources of re-rolls have been turned into "re-roll 1s", but on a 2+ roll, re-rolling 1s and full re-rolls are the same thing.
In general, the lower your target number the larger effect re-rolling 1s has. Because 1s will make up a larger share of your fails, and fewer of those re-rolls will fail again. So I'd say re-roll whichever one has the lower target number, and try to get through the other one with volume of dice.
Hmm, I suppose I can try to roughly math out the effect.
Glossary of terms:
"Hit": the roll succeeds on the first try
"Miss": the roll fails the first attempt
"Salvaged": the roll succeeds on the second attempt
6+: 1/6 hit, 5/6 miss, 1/5 re-roll, 1/6 salvaged. 1/6+(5/6*1/5*1/6)=7/36 succeed. Almost no improvement, only 1/36 better.
5+: 2/6 hit, 4/6 miss, 1/4 re-roll, 2/6 salvaged. 2/6+(4/6*1/4*2/6)= 7/18 succeed Twice as good as above with a 1/18 improvement, but double of microscopic is still tiny.
4+: 3/6 hit, 3/6 miss, 1/3 re-roll, 3/6 salvaged. 3/6+(3/6*1/3*3/6)=7/12 succeed. A 1/12 improvement, might almost be worth it on non-lasguns.
3+: 4/6 hit, 2/6 miss, 1/2 re-roll, 4/6 salvaged. 4/6+(2/6*1/2*4/6)=7/9 succeed. 3+ is pretty worth it with a 1/9 improvement, and is probably going to be the most common target of these orders. So if one of your rolls is 3+ and it's not a lasgun, put re-rolls on the 3+.
2+: 5/6 hit, 1/6 miss, all re-roll, 5/6 salvaged. 5/6+(1/6*1*5/6)=35/36 succeed. Suddenly, it turns into full re-rolls because all your misses are 1s. Looking at you, Pask.
This also means that if you have a mix of full re-rolls and re-roll 1s available, put the re-roll 1s on the best rolls first because they'll squeeze the most benefit out of it, and put the full re-rolls on the worse odds so you can re-roll the whole bucket full of misses.
Of course, there's an exception for Plasma. Always re-roll hits for plasma no matter what kind of re-roll it is, because that's not about hitting, that's about preventing Gets Hot. Also, never put re-rolls on lasguns. FRFSRF is strictly better in every situation.
Additional edit:
Also, if both rolls are equal, re-rolling to hit is preferred. More dice roll to hit than to wound (for obvious reasons, your dice count can only go down as you go through the filters), and more dice rolling means more dice to re-roll.
With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
The Plasmacutioner was kind of the high point in terms of firepower for the new Russ. It's a very large nerf.
I definitely wouldn't want to fire a plasmacutioner after moving. Even with emergency vents preventing instant death, 6 wounds in incredibly painful on a 12 wound model. A 1/3 chance of that is not something I would want to bet on, especially since the Russ doesn't have any way to re-roll 2s anymore!
Man, if nothing else from Divination comes back, I hope our codex at least brings back the ability for primaris psykers to grant full re-rolls to hit. That was my favorite spell by far.
I think that people need to consider using the basic plasma fire mode more. By making the overcharge punishing it really is a risk to use. If people are using the overcharge all of the time, then it really is a badly designed unit that doesn't force you to make a hard choice.
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
So, excepted for the punisher, LR are terrible, especially the LRBT ?
I have an armored battle group awaiting its first 8th ed fight, so any advice about 8th ed LR would help !
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
So this would mean that your Russ, being ordered to re-rolls 1s, would re-roll 2s and 1s if you had moved?
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
So this would mean that your Russ, being ordered to re-rolls 1s, would re-roll 2s and 1s if you had moved?
I don't think so, as you apply re-rolls before modifiers.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
So this would mean that your Russ, being ordered to re-rolls 1s, would re-roll 2s and 1s if you had moved?
I don't think so, as you apply re-rolls before modifiers.
Enemy List:
10x Tac Marines, Plasmagun, Lascannon
6x Tac Marines, Missile Launcher
3x Bikers, I forgot what their upgrades were, and it didn't matter
1x Company Captain
The board: We had a big chaos fortress on my opponents side, a contiguous wall that basically spanned his entire deployment region, and a Wall of Martyrs line anchored by Imperial Bastions on mine. It was pretty cool. Smack in the middle of the Chaos fortress, between two watchtowers, was a gate that in the open position. In between the lines was a big field of craters.
I set up around one of the Bastions, using it as cover for the tanks. He sets up his big squad on the battlements of the fortress, small squad behind the wall, and bikes in the open gate. The Captain is hiding behind the small Tactical team.
I went first because I had fewer drops. Straightforward that way, he didn't seize.
IG1: Tanks advance a bit into Multimelta range. Pask rolls crap on the Battle Cannon, but between the Multimeltas, Lascannon, and the 1 Battle Cannon shot I did make, I erase the bikes. They fail their saves and cease to exist.Punisher opens up on the Tac Squad with Lascannon and Plasmagun, who are hiding on the battlements for a 2+, and kills 3. Stormies stay in reserve.
SM1: Shoot at Pask with the Lascannon. No effect. Small tac squad moves into the open gate of the big chaos fortress. Shoot at Pask with the missile launcher, causes 3 wounds.
IG2: I drop in the scions to assassinate his Warlord, but have no effect. The Pask takes a chunk out of the little squad, and the Punisher dramatically overkills what's left of it. I should have fired the gatling cannon at the guys on the battlements and let battleshock finish the guys in the gate, but no loss, no foul.
SM2: The Tac squad climbs down from the battlements. The Captain charges the Scions, flubs and kills 2.
IG3: As the remaining tac squad is hiding out of LoS behind the battlements, I'll have to go through the gate, the only way onto his side of the board, with my tanks, so they move up to midfield. The scions fall back, and the Captain, who is the only visible model, gets turned into bloody giblets by Pask and his Battle Cannon.
SM3: His remaining tac guys execute my stormtroopers.
IG4: Tanks move into the gate.
SM4: Marines climb back up onto the battlements, then fire and overcharge their plasmagun, taking a huge chunk out of Pask, dropping him to 3 wounds. I burn a command point to re-roll his save, but it doesn't do anything.
IG5: Tanks move to get a better line of fire. I burn a CP to re-roll the number of Battle Cannon shots, and do okay, killing one. The Punisher rips up even more of them, and there's 2 of them left. He passes battleshock though.
SM5: He fires his last Lascannon and Plasmagun on overcharge, and kills Pask's tank.
IG6: Punisher tank kills remaining Space Marines.
IG Victory.
Debrief: Punisher was less effective than I liked, and he messed up by not charging my tanks when they came through the gate. Hitting on 5's with the Punisher's secondaries was nasty, though. Stormies were useless.
Second Game, vs. Orks
Spoiler:
Enemy List
30x Boyz, 3x Big Shootas.
1x Wierdboy
1x Warboss
1x Painboy
1x Bubblechucka
5x Tankbustaz
I ended up assigned to the same table, so it looks about the same. The deployment pattern changed to having the rectangles at diagonal to each other, and we moved around the bastions, trench, and giant chaos fortress pieces [it was made out of like 4 sections of curtain wall, 2 tall watchtowers, 2 gates, and another section of big section of wall with an angle in it and a staircase on the back. It was so damn massive, I wish I had a Manticore and Wyvern so badly.], but it was pretty much the same sort of thing. We made a second hole in the chaos fortress wall, because that thing was obnoxiously big and the one gate was annoying.
Again, I set up clustered behind a Bastion, and set up my Stormtroopers on the Bastion parapet to shield the tanks from "Da Jump". He put his tankbustaz and bubblechucka on the battlements, and hid the rest of his big mob out of LoS behind the Chaos curtain wall.
I went first again:
IG1: Pask shoots the Bubblechucka, rolls crap on the Battle Cannon, I burn a CP and still get a 2. He kills 2 grots manning the gun. Punisher annihilates the Tankbustaz entirely with the gatling gun. Again, I should have targeted something else with the Heavy Bolters.
Orks1: Da-Jump happens, bringing the big mob in front of my tanks. He shoots the tanks with the Bubblechucka, and manages 2 wounds on Pask. He charges the Punisher with his big mob, fails the charge, re-rolls, and still fails. He loses 5 guys to my total overwatch. The Wierdboy charges, takes 2 wounds from overwatch, and then whiffs at the tank.
IG2: Punisher falls back. Stormies kill the Wierdboy. Pask rolls crap on the Battle Cannon again, and I burn a CP to get a 4. He kills a few Boyz.
Orks2: The boyz kill 3 Stormies, and the remaining 2 are removed by battleshock. They fail a 7" charge to get to Pask, spend a CP to re-roll, and still fail. Warboss and his attendant come out of the gate on the Chaos fortress. Bubblechucka fails to do anything.
IG3: Punisher, feeling better, erases the orkz. When it didn't move, and wasn't hitting on 5's with the Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolter, it was absolutely terrifying. It killed so many of them, and dropped the squad to a half-dozen models. Pask splits fire, using his Storm Bolter and Multimeltas on the Boyz and his Lascannon and Battle Cannon on the Mek Gun. The Boys are dropped to 3 models, and the Mek gun loses a single grot, because the Battle Cannon rolls crappy again. Boyz fail battleshock and are wiped.
Orks3: Mek Gun rolls well, sticks a hard hit on the Punisher because Pask is out of LoS behind the Bastion, but that's it.
Orks concede, IG Victory.
Debrief: Punisher was amazing. It shredded the orks. Pask's battle cannon was less so. Stormies were slightly less useless, but still useless.
More on Tanks, from the battle going on next to me during the second round of matches, IG vs. Deathwatch
Spoiler:
I wasn't paying particularly close attention, but the IG player's list looked somewhat similar to mine. He had a Pask Vanquisher with all the trappings, some Stormtroopers, and some rough riders. The Deathwatch guy had a Razorback, a Dreadnought, and the guys in the Razorback.
Their board didn't have a giant goddamn wall across it blocking Line of Sight, and was instead populated by promethium pipes and tall, but very thin, towers with decks at the top.
The IG guy seized the initiative and cracked open the razorback on turn 1. The Stormies annihilated the guys who got out.
The Deathwatch Dreadnought went after the Rough Riders, and the Watch Captain went after the stormies. The rough riders got their ass handed to them
There was a bit of melee through turn 2, but nothing much
Pask demolished the Dreadnought on turn 3, when it got out of combat with the rough riders.
The Deathwatch conceded.
One more, from the table next to me, in the first round of matches, on transports. Orks vs. Black Templar
Spoiler:
The Ork list had Ghazskull, a big mob of boyz, and some Lootaz. The BT had Helbrecht and a squad inside a Rhino, and a Dreadnought.
The BT went first, and rushed the Rhino up the board at all-ahead full.
The Orks ran up and charged the Rhino, completely surrounding it. They exploded it right there with a metric crap-ton of dice, and a big argument ensued about what happened to the guys inside it. In the end, only Helbrecht and one of his buddies survived, because the Orks were surrounding it so thoroughly. The Lootas took a chunk off the Dreadnought.
The Dready ran in to save Helbrecht, and the two killed some Orks. Ghazskull ripped the Dready apart, then, Ghazskull ripped Helbrecht apart, and that was game.
So it looks like the punisher is overall not a bad choice, and that IG appear to be fairly powerful?
I'm playing at least a game tomorrow. Maybe two if time allows. Opponents wanted to do 50 power. I'd prefer points, but I'm willing to give it a shot at least once. I ran the numbers and my candidate list is 50 power and exactly 1000 points, so that's something.
List:
Spoiler:
Priest (Eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist, BP)
Company Commander
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Priest (Eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist, BP)
Company Commander
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Heavy Weapon Squad (3x LC)
Heavy Weapon Squad (3x LC)
5 Scions (2x plasma)
5 Scions (2x plasma)
Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)
1 Basilisk
Master of Ordnance
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Because at that point you're intentionally breaking the power level 'system,' especially with an army like guard that strains it in the first place.
Yeah, I dunno. Incidentally, if I was doing this with randos or something, I'd be inclined to agree with you on it. The guys I'm playing with though are the guys I started this silly business with years ago. We've not actually discussed the matter, but I'm willing to bet, given some 15 years of knowing the fellows and some 7-8 years of playing this game, that they're probably doing the same thing.
Iffy on it, honestly. The HWTs have 'kill us, we're squishy' painted on them, and the basilisk is the _only_ thing worth firing AT weapons at, which is bad, because it isn't built to take sustained fire.
At that point, beyond waiting for the scions to show up, the enemy has little to do but swat infantry. Against a monster/vehicle heavy army (or even just 2-3), it becomes impotent very quickly.
I'd say it will struggle a fair bit against MEQs- there just isn't enough output, or enough wounds to hold out.
Yeah, my main recommendations would be to ditch the priests and power swords. One power sword does not a melee unit make, and the priest's +1 attack buff isn't that strong on a 10-man unit. You can use the 6PL for the priests to get two more infantry squads, which bring much more useful dakka to the table.
Then you can get rid of the HWS. Your infantry squads (if you take the advice about the priests) will have 6 heavy open heavy weapon slots. How convenient, you can put the lascannons in there. Now they're actually somewhat hard to kill, and you can split-fire them with ease. To sweeten the deal, because you're using power levels, those 6 lascannons will be free!
Which means you'll have some left-over PL you can spend on whatever you want.
Well, I mean, it's 1000 points, basically. There's not going to be a lot of the enemy to swat me with to begin with. I haven't looked very hard at Xenos yet, so I'm honestly not sure how many monsters can be brought at this point level, but I'm going to guess they're priced similar to vehicles. Maybe that's a bad move on my part.
I do not think the HWS will be so squishy, but I guess we'll see. Perhaps I'll swap them out for another Basilisk or something. Far as that goes, the plan is to try to get it out of LOS. Shouldn't be too hard with maybe some ruins on the table or something like that.
The preists are there for the same reason that the power weapons are. I'm trying a 5th ed style power blob. The CC keeps his own two squads ordered, the priest gives them extra attacks and lends a hand on the big stuff, and the commissar keeps them in the fight. They FRFSRF as they're moving up, and then charge in to do cleanup. A full squad kills an average of 4.5 MEQ in melee, so they're surprisingly not horrible at it, at least, for cleanup purposes.
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Because at that point you're intentionally breaking the power level 'system,' especially with an army like guard that strains it in the first place.
I'd argue that's exactly what the power level system is for, to allow people to finally take all those upgrades. If you're worried about stuff being OP or dislike the idea of someone taking all those upgrades you should just use points.
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
Yes the rumor was a day one nerf because they were so "broken."
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Because at that point you're intentionally breaking the power level 'system,' especially with an army like guard that strains it in the first place.
I'd argue that's exactly what the power level system is for, to allow people to finally take all those upgrades. If you're worried about stuff being OP or dislike the idea of someone taking all those upgrades you should just use points.
Uh, no. It specifically isn't. The designers have mentioned multiple times that power levels are set based on taking a median level of the available upgrades, and why it's the default assumption for _Narrative_ games.
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
Yes the rumor was a day one nerf because they were so "broken."
I ran Pask with a Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and 2x Multimelta to crack tanks. I didn't end up facing any tanks that needed cracking, but he got good use against space marines.
Another guy ran Pask Vanquisher with Lascannons and 2x Multimelta, to similarly lethal effect. It's worth mention that Pask with a Battle Cannon has approximately equal antitank power to Pask with a Vanquisher cannon. I wasn't impressed with the Battle Cannon, though, since I had to keep burning CP to keep it operating.
I have a bunch of plots scattered around showing the probability distributions, which I think are more valuable than the averages.
Didn't get to play a game myself of 8E yet but have gotten to watch a couple. Thus far my impression of Russ tanks is unchanged, they appear to be woefully unimpressive, though artillery tanks (well, manticores and wyvers) hiding in corners with a Master of Ordnance work wonders, and conscript blobs work wonderfully as noticed by many. Definitely feels like an infantry dominated game, but an army without some high T stuff is still going to get shot off the board in short order we've found thus far.
I'll be honest after getting a game of 8th in finally, I'd absolutely still pay for conscripts at 4pts per model IF they kept them absolutely the same in every other regard. This means
1. They're a normal troop unit, I.E. I can take three units of 50 men as 3 troop slots without the platoon "tax"
2. They can keep their unit size at 50 men
3. They can still get orders
I think it would be balanced as insane as that sounds and they would still be an excellent unit in the codex. They have a job, they die so your actually competent guardsmen may live, form a somewhat spikey meatshield for enemy assault units, and vomit out an intimidating amount of dice whenever something gets too close. They lack offensive killing power, but it is more than made up for by their objective taking utility, screening abilites, overwatch walls, and just tying up things that you don't want to deal with that turn. If they are going to stay at 3pts per model, then IG really does need platoons to come back, both for IG players and their opponent's sake. IG has no other way to form a screening "blob" so concripts are incredibly important to any infantry line. I personally believe that 30 is the optimal unit size, even in 8th, due to just how unwieldy a 50 man unit on a proper table is, but I don't blame people for wanting to try the maximum unit size. If you have the proper amount of terrain you'll notice that a lot of the time many models just straight up cannot get a shot or you have an odd split on rapid fire range or charges. You definitely will almost never see all conscripts swing in a single combat, that's for sure.
One thing that I had not anticipated at all is just how much IG will actually get their armor saves now, especially in the open. I had guys in the open getting wailed on by stormbolters and flamers and still passing armor saves. Yes, you're only passing on 5 or 6, but when you have 150+ guardsmen in your list that adds up far more quickly than you think. Especially on conscripts. Most enemy anti horde that they will be firing will be things like bolters, shootas, lasguns, etc. When you're saving a 1/3rd of these wounds on average, that's a big improvement from 7th. By turn 4 against a pretty scary looking GK list (I have no idea if it was optimal, but man there were a ton of stormbolters) I still had probably 70% of my army alive. That's unheard of for 7th as an infantry player.
Other than that in no particular order
Spoiler:
Vets and stormtroopers hit like a truck
Harker is excellent now if you have Catachans as he essentially gives you reroll 1's for shooting and wounding if you use orders. I would heartily recommend running him with veteran units and a commander if you're still doing mechanized guard stuff or want something to lurk in your backline to deal with a breakthrough.
Plasma + Take Aim = Profit. Seriously, it's a match made in heaven. Plasma is a reliable source of wounds since it always does 2 on high power and S8 is a big jump. I was pairing them with autocannons but weirdly enough I'm starting to think they would match up better with missile launchers. Once I get my missile launcher teams based I'll try it out.
Autocannons are exactly what they should be, jack of all trades, masters of none. They're pretty ok across the board but I felt like they covered my bases and while my opponent wasn't actively going out of his way to kill them that was only because there was so much friggin plasma on the board. Lascannons hit like a truck, no surprise there. After what I've seen I think an honest argument would be made to taking a healthy mix of all the heavy weapons in our armory, or at least most of them. Heavy bolters are the only one I'm iffy on and that's because I just have so many lasguns.
Transports actually seemed useful to me. They do not play like any previous edition, so you may as well just forget about comparing them now. They're a fairly tough battle taxi system to get from point A to point B. I shoved Harker, a company commander with a plasma pistol, and a vet squad kitted out with plasma/heavy flamer into a chimera and had a squad of meltas/heavy flamer in a taurox next to them and they definitely drew attention as a threat. The opponent had to decide whether he wanted to stop them on my side of the board or risk them getting into his backline and setting up on an objective. He proceeded to come to me, I piled out and killed him, and then had the freedom to hop back in if I had needed to.
Executioner was eh, it didn't do much, but I never overcharged it. It took a lot of hits though, worked well as a wall for blocking line of sight to important characters, and in general was more of a defensive brick that guarded a flank. It took a long time to chew through and believe it or not bought me the time I needed to stabilize my right flank. It didn't do a ton of damage but the grey knight player had to decide to either kill it or go around and neither was really a great choice.
IG will survive by target saturation now mthey more than ever. Yes, heavy weapon squads are super efficient but you are going to need a LOT of them if you want to seriously commit to bringing them. There are a lot of two damage weapons out there and if you don't seriously saturate your back line with them they will go down hard. I didn't use them this first game but I can already see what might have happened.
In an unrelated note, I think mortar teams have an excellent secondary purpose that nobody has mentioned yet, as a deepstrike/flanking denial unit. As you are an infantry guard player and should be moving up, you will inevitably leave gaps to the rear that the enemy can drop down into your deployment. By spreading out your mortar squads across your deployment zone and out of sight, they'll give you additional time to move up without worrying about your rear being threatened. In addition, regular infantry squads of 10 men worked well for this purpose too. They're so cheap even with upgrades that it's no big loss to set up a squad or two on the flanks just deny deepstrikers.
That's my main revelations from my very first game as an infantry player. I brought literally a bit of everything as I was kind of surprised on the spot by a GK player wanting to play a game twice the size I had mentally prepared for, so take that to mind when reading all this.
I fully expect some of my opinions on this stuff to change after a few more games. I don't have a competitive meta in the slightest but I can still get a good idea of what will and what won't work at least.
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
Yes the rumor was a day one nerf because they were so "broken."
I ran Pask with a Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and 2x Multimelta to crack tanks. I didn't end up facing any tanks that needed cracking, but he got good use against space marines.
Another guy ran Pask Vanquisher with Lascannons and 2x Multimelta, to similarly lethal effect. It's worth mention that Pask with a Battle Cannon has approximately equal antitank power to Pask with a Vanquisher cannon. I wasn't impressed with the Battle Cannon, though, since I had to keep burning CP to keep it operating.
I have a bunch of plots scattered around showing the probability distributions, which I think are more valuable than the averages.
Thanks, it is a hard choice for sure. Though if it shows that a battle cannon is the same as a vanquisher in terms of damage that makes the BC a clear winner for me. The main reason is that since the BC is multiple hits it can hurt diffrent targets if needed in different roles and then switch to an anti tank role. I keep thinking the punisher would be very nasty but hate that 24" range.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'll be honest after getting a game of 8th in finally, I'd absolutely still pay for conscripts at 4pts per model IF they kept them absolutely the same in every other regard.
I believe that's just wishful thinking. They will definitely increase the cost, reduce their stats, make them unable to benefit from auras and finally remove them from the codex. At least according to what I've heard.
I wish it was the 23rd so the Forge World-index was released, and we could actually see how our options there stack up. Considering that my present anti-tank basically consists of 5 Rapier Laser Destroyers, Leman Russ Vanquishers and Heavy Artillery, making a functional army right now is difficult.
I would also pay for 4pt conscripts. 150 models for 600pts sounds pretty reasonable to me!
On an unrelated note, I think that they made a similar mistake with brimstone horrors this edition. They're only T1, but have a 4+ invulnerable and have the potential to deal mortal wounds for 2pts per model. Daemon players can currently plonk down 250 of them and still have 1500pts to play with in a 2000pt game. I know they don't do much offensively, but even IG would struggle to kill them!
Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!
Punisher23 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!
I can't decide in this too The better save or the invulnerable? I think I'm gonna decide for the Invulnerable. Bullgrynns are pretty big and scary, so the enemy will try to focus is heavy fire in them to bring them down.
But at the same time, if you use them in a heavy tank list, probably the better save is more worth it, because the heavy AP weapons of your opponent will be focusing the tanks.
Punisher23 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!
I can't decide in this too The better save or the invulnerable? I think I'm gonna decide for the Invulnerable. Bullgrynns are pretty big and scary, so the enemy will try to focus is heavy fire in them to bring them down.
But at the same time, if you use them in a heavy tank list, probably the better save is more worth it, because the heavy AP weapons of your opponent will be focusing the tanks.
Definirely looks to be a magnet job. Probably depends on the size of the game as well, smaller battle means they'll dfinitely be the biggest targets.
Punisher23 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!
I can't decide in this too The better save or the invulnerable? I think I'm gonna decide for the Invulnerable. Bullgrynns are pretty big and scary, so the enemy will try to focus is heavy fire in them to bring them down.
But at the same time, if you use them in a heavy tank list, probably the better save is more worth it, because the heavy AP weapons of your opponent will be focusing the tanks.
You mix the shields. Take mostly slab shields for the 2+ and then a few brute shields to tank lascannons and stuff. You do have to worry about the "allocate to already wounded models" thing but it isn't that much of a problem.
Thanks, it is a hard choice for sure. Though if it shows that a battle cannon is the same as a vanquisher in terms of damage that makes the BC a clear winner for me. The main reason is that since the BC is multiple hits it can hurt diffrent targets if needed in different roles and then switch to an anti tank role. I keep thinking the punisher would be very nasty but hate that 24" range.
Here, I'll re-post the chart I made for Pask on the Battle Tank, Vanquisher, and Demolisher:
I'll run the numbers for Pask and ordinary TC's on other tanks.
Anyone want to take a crack at what the Conqueror Cannon's stats will be? It was S7, AP4, but it looks like it was FAQ'ed in IA1:2e to be Str.8, AP3, Small Blast. I'm guess Heavy D3, Str: 8, AP: -2, D: D3
Punisher23 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!
Slabshields are better against AP- and AP-1.
They're equal against AP-2.
Bruteshields are better against AP-3 and AP-4
Add a coversave and Slabshields are better or equal against everything except AP-4. (Which are quite rare and often short-ranged.)
Mixing might be a good choice, but if it's one or the other I'd go with Slabshields. I also think they look better.
Pask in LRBT with lascannon and plasma
Creed
Commissar (PF)
Infantry Squad x 3 (ML, PG, PP)
Scount Sent x 3 (HF, HKM, Chainblades)
Rough Riders (PP / PS on sarge)
Ratlings x 5
Manticore
It was a team game, 50PL each vs 2 knights and Imperial fists.
Observations:
Knights are very scary and me and my teammate spent most of our time trapped in our deployment zone fighting off turn 1 deep striking/charging assault terminators with Lysander as well as the 2 knights, which are upon you almost instantly. We got 1 turn of shooting off which left 1 knight below 50% and 1 unscathed. We had to go second, which is seriously bad, and so were unable to shoot at the terminators before they got stuck in turn 1.
I'm pretty sure, as others have said, range isn't very important now; assault units are on you almost instantly. The infantry squads did great and I think Plasma pistol / gun will be my default load out for them now, though a meltagun would have helped a lot vs the knights. Fall back + Get back in the fight is a life saver. But there is a huge problem. You are trapped in your deployment zone and the objectives are not trapped there with you. Chimeras with HFx2 would have been amazing this game and I really missed them.
Speaking of Heavy Flamers, the Scout sentinels were MVPs. They torched an approaching knight taking 4! wounds off it, then another 4-5 on it on over watch when it charged. They put it below a damage threshold and as a result the knight whiffed all his attacks against them. They disengaged and ran off to torch a midfield tactical squad on an objective, killing 4/5 marines in 1 go. The remaining marine and chaplain were stuck unable to charge them and face the withering overwatch, but unable to outrun them and escape the flames. The game ended before they could take the objective.
Pask was decent but I will never take plasma sponsons on him again. The temptation to overcharge them because you can re-roll ones is too great. I rolled 6 shots on 2D3 to fire them overcharged and rolled 2 1s in a row after the re-roll. Instantly crippled him. He did a ton of damage to the second knight though, killing it before the game ended. The LR is very resilient, it lasted the whole game due to the infantry screen.
Ratlings whiffed all their shots, Rough Riders flanked and failed their charge even after CP re-roll and spent the game bogged down in melee with a tac squad, but they did well not having gotten a charge off.
Conclusion: Take lots of heavy flamers because assault units are going to be all over you anyway.
LRBT were just garbage. Hard to kill garbage but still garbage. Their shooting was very lackluster.
The basilisk seemed not much better. I didn't have big cover to hide it so It didn't get to shoot much.
Chimeras are meh. I can see 1 or 2 being usefull but not more as they are expensive and if you move you're bound to miss everything.
Armoured sentinels didn't get many shooting options nor did thry kill much but were unharmed by regular troops and walked to and kept an objective all game. So they performed alright for their cheap cost.
Guardsman squad are now extra wounds for a heavy weapon i guess. Park em somewhere and shoot rockets or lascanon shots at stuff.
I didn't use HWT or manticores but would switch the 2 leman russ i used and the basilisk for them anyday.
Here's Pask's CCDF's [Chance to inflict at least X wounds] on different varieties of Leman Russ, targeting a hypothetical Rhino or Predator:
At the 6-wound mark [and beyond], the Demolisher, Annihilator, and overcharged Executioner cannon run about equal. This is logical, since they all have about the same profile.
The Battle Tank and Vanquisher, come in second. While the Battle Tank has a similar damage profile to the Demolisher, Annihilator, and Executioner, the loss of AP hurts it. The Vanquisher simply has half the number of shots as the three other tanks, and while the re-roll on damage does edge it up a bit, a re-roll isn't nearly worth an extra shot.
We can reasonably set our target mark for our main gun in the antitank capacity in the region of 4-6 wounds. This is basically how many wounds it has to deal so that it and it's secondary weapons can cripple or crack a transport on turn 1.
I'll prepare charts for a Leman-Russ equivalent target.
I don't think we need to be concerned about Pask's anti-infantry performance, the winner is incredibly clear.
I spent longer than I would care to admit looking for the second vanquisher line. It's hot here and my brain is slow!
I'm actually liking the look of the demolisher here. Similar AT power to an annihilator yet larger AP fire due to blast. May have to give a fireball demolisher a go, although not with Pask.
I... Well.... That is just plain silly. There was a reason that they put the rule in in the first place you know, because gunline armies like IG would get hammered by certain things that could get really close really fast, and now, after years of power bloat and units being able to get in your face on turn one, they bring it back?
They do test play right?
It's not that big of a deal. Almost all forms of 'Deep Strike' involve being more than 9" away from any enemies, and every attempt at charging draws overwatch until the unit is engaged. If some really wants to show up on turn 1 and charge, they'll be praying to the dice gods a lot, and you get to shoot their models in the face every time they try.
For units in transports, it isn't a problem at all, as the unit has to get out before the transport moves.
Against most things, good deployment means they can't get inside your lines, and the outer edge is stuff you can afford to be attacked. If two units are 16" apart, none of the 'arrive on the battlefield' rules allow a model to drop in there.
About the only exception that comes to mind is the Deathleaper, who can turn up within 6" of its target, but more than 1" away from enemy models.
And genestealer cult stuff with lucky ambush rolls (5 or 6), though a primus gives a reroll.
Voss wrote: It's not that big of a deal. Almost all forms of 'Deep Strike' involve being 9" away from any enemies, and every attempt at charging draws overwatch until the unit is engaged.
Unless you charge from outside line of sight, then you don't take overwatch. Should be easy to avoid but something to keep in mind.
Thanks for all the charts, they are very helpful. I think the LR Annihilator is going to be our premier AT platform. Unfortunately, as I found in my game vs the knights, Str 8 Battlecannons vs T 8 really struggles to reliably stick wounds. STR 8 simply doesn't cut it vs T8. That 4+ really hurts. It's a WORLD of difference when you hit STR 9 and unfortunately, we really lack that on our MBTs. Our artillery is great of course, but T7 is surprisingly vulnerable to things like Battlecannons. In my game my Manticore was crippled turn 1 by a knights RFBC, taking something like 7 damage, as I had nowhere to hide it out of LoS.
Edit: Looking again at your charts it looks like the Punisher is a good candidate for running a LR without a Tank Commander/Pask.
I... Well.... That is just plain silly. There was a reason that they put the rule in in the first place you know, because gunline armies like IG would get hammered by certain things that could get really close really fast, and now, after years of power bloat and units being able to get in your face on turn one, they bring it back?
They do test play right?
We have an order that lets our guardsmen fall back for free and shoot their charger whenever we want that autosucceeds. Trust me, it balances out. We have so many cheap screening units that if you can't figure out how to stop a turn 1 charge on your important units you either have literally 0 infantry or you are really bad at this game.
We have an order that lets our guardsmen fall back for free and shoot their charger whenever we want that autosucceeds. Trust me, it balances out. We have so many cheap screening units that if you can't figure out how to stop a turn 1 charge on your important units you either have literally 0 infantry or you are really bad at this game.
This.
You should have screening units for your important stuff (which isn't really hard to come by in a IG-force with out cheap infantry and conscript-squads), and since your opponent has to deploy more than 9" away from you, that's at least a 10" charge, so very unlikely to happen. Being able to deepstrike/infiltrate and charge for a 1st turn charge sounds scary if you're on the receiving end, but once you stop and think about it, it's not nearly as bad as it initially sounds.
We have an order that lets our guardsmen fall back for free and shoot their charger whenever we want that autosucceeds. Trust me, it balances out. We have so many cheap screening units that if you can't figure out how to stop a turn 1 charge on your important units you either have literally 0 infantry or you are really bad at this game.
This.
You should have screening units for your important stuff (which isn't really hard to come by in a IG-force with out cheap infantry and conscript-squads), and since your opponent has to deploy more than 9" away from you, that's at least a 10" charge, so very unlikely to happen. Being able to deepstrike/infiltrate and charge for a 1st turn charge sounds scary if you're on the receiving end, but once you stop and think about it, it's not nearly as bad as it initially sounds.
´
9" charge. You have to get within 1", so e.g. 9.1"-9" = 0.1", so within 1", while 9.1"-8." = 1.1", outside 1".
I'm playing at least a game tomorrow. Maybe two if time allows. Opponents wanted to do 50 power. I'd prefer points, but I'm willing to give it a shot at least once. I ran the numbers and my candidate list is 50 power and exactly 1000 points, so that's something.
List:
Spoiler:
Priest (Eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist, BP)
Company Commander
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Priest (Eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist, BP)
Company Commander
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Heavy Weapon Squad (3x LC)
Heavy Weapon Squad (3x LC)
5 Scions (2x plasma)
5 Scions (2x plasma)
Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)
1 Basilisk
Master of Ordnance
So we wound up playing 75, not 50. I tossed in a Punisher and 4 plasma sentinels and called it close enough.
He went Eldar with a nasty list (causing some loss of faith on my part with the flexibility of the FOC). Had a wrathknight, three or four wraithlords, the Eldar sniper character, a squad of Swooping hawks, and the Swooping Hawk Phoenix Lord guy.
He rushed pretty hard, dropping my HWS immediately because I didn't realize you can deep strike turn 1. If I realized that, I would have deployed them behind everything, rather than optimizing for cover. One of the power blobs cleaned up the swooping hawks and put a little hurt on the phoenix lord. My scions deep struck behind his army and hit two of the WL, putting a few wounds on them. He pushed pretty hard with the WLs and WK, and wiped out one of the infantry squads, and that sort of set the stage for the rest of the game. I was down to a single priest by the end of the game, but he only had maybe 10 wounds left between his models. I made some missteps, but a few dice rolls probably could have swung the game the opposite way.
A few highlights:
The priests were actually surprisingly durable with their 4++ saves, particularly since there's no instant death anymore. I had to smile when one finished off the phoenix lord with his eviscerator.
PF commissar uppercutted a WL to death. Granted, it was hurting pretty badly already, but multiple damage attacks are nasty.
Takeaways and wisdom gained:
- I screwed up with the infantry and let one squad get out of the commissar bubble. I barely kept them in the priest bubble. That hurt me quite a bit..
- Since they're individual squads and not the blobs, you might get one in the charge and not the other. That hurt against the swooping hawks.
- Supercharged plasma is amazing. I was playing it conservative until I started getting walked over, and then the guy watching was like, "just supercharge. You don't have much to lose at this point." Combined with take aim, it turned out pretty well. It let me put some real damage on the wraiths. If I'd done it from the start, I might have come out on top.
- ...except on vehicles. The walkers still probably made their power back, but they didn't last very long after I started in with the plasma.
- Cover is less important than previous editions. I probably would have done better screening the HWS with models than I did putting them in cover.
- The basilisk seemed pretty effective, though kinda random. The 2d6 take-highest on the number of attacks helps quite a bit. And given its performance, I can see why people dislike the LRBT so much. The MoO was much less effective. I think his reroll ability came into effect once, but it might have been more useful against a static gunline. I don't think I'll be bringing him again, at least not with just one basilisk.
- The punisher was good. I want to try some other tanks, but I think I agree with the consensus that it's going to be the better of the LR line.
Those Death Riders look pretty nice. They do lose the outflanking rule, although it is pretty hard to pull of a 9" charge anyway. They also get 10 lance and 20 mount attacks on the charge, which can be quite powerful. Just hide them when you deploy and they can be a nasty attack force. t4, 4+sv, 2w and fnp make them rather survivable too.
I'm impressed, they managed to really differentiate Death Riders from Rough Riders; Death Riders are essentially Cuirassiers while Rough Riders are closer to Hussars. I can see a legitimate use for both of them. I'm also extremely happy about the new keyword system because you'll be able to slot those Death Riders into any AM army with no real downsides, as Rough Riders can't receive orders anyway.
On the MoO, why not just upgrade to Harker for 12pts. You don't need to worry about range, and Harker's gun will probably do more damage over the course of a game than the one-shot artillery barrage.
On the Death Riders, they do seem cool, but I want to point out they don't have chainswords. So while they can make more hunting lance attacks, after the initial charge, they perform very similarly to regular rough riders. Still neat units, and the extra hunting lance attacks is awesome!
I used Sgt Harker in my last game. 150 power level with 2 BDEs filled out. Harker was the MVP for sure. He was right next to my Hydra, Basilisk, 6 infantry squads, and 4 HWSs. It was BRUTAL. I just used Bring it Down to reroll 1s to wound and it was quite OP. I actually felt bad.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: On the MoO, why not just upgrade to Harker for 12pts. You don't need to worry about range, and Harker's gun will probably do more damage over the course of a game than the one-shot artillery barrage.
On the Death Riders, they do seem cool, but I want to point out they don't have chainswords. So while they can make more hunting lance attacks, after the initial charge, they perform very similarly to regular rough riders. Still neat units, and the extra hunting lance attacks is awesome!
The Death Rider mounts get 2 str4 attacks, as opposed to the Rough Rider's 1 str:user mount attack.
Finished the first draft of the cheat sheet I plan to keep in my case so I don't always have to bring my Index... or flip through it to look at special rules or characteristics. I just noticed that some of the formatting got a bit messed up opening it on another computer with Google Docs. I will be adding in abbreviated keywords later. Let me know if you notice anything crucial I am missing or if my math is wrong. Dang it, just realized I forgot some of Yarrick's rules too. Hooray for first drafts!
Just tried a new list against Tau. 150 power/3000pts. He got tabled turn 4. I have tried almost everything in our list, except for some artillery I don't have. My lists without battle tanks have proved to be the most effective. I actually feel kind of bad for my friends I've been playing ...
Colonel Cross wrote: Just tried a new list against Tau. 150 power/3000pts. He got tabled turn 4. I have tried almost everything in our list, except for some artillery I don't have. My lists without battle tanks have proved to be the most effective. I actually feel kind of bad for my friends I've been playing ...
Thanks, it is a hard choice for sure. Though if it shows that a battle cannon is the same as a vanquisher in terms of damage that makes the BC a clear winner for me. The main reason is that since the BC is multiple hits it can hurt diffrent targets if needed in different roles and then switch to an anti tank role. I keep thinking the punisher would be very nasty but hate that 24" range.
Here, I'll re-post the chart I made for Pask on the Battle Tank, Vanquisher, and Demolisher:
I'll run the numbers for Pask and ordinary TC's on other tanks.
Anyone want to take a crack at what the Conqueror Cannon's stats will be? It was S7, AP4, but it looks like it was FAQ'ed in IA1:2e to be Str.8, AP3, Small Blast. I'm guess Heavy D3, Str: 8, AP: -2, D: D3
Thanks for doing this. Can you please tell me what your axis are? I am having trouble understanding what your graph is representing exactly.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'll be honest after getting a game of 8th in finally, I'd absolutely still pay for conscripts at 4pts per model IF they kept them absolutely the same in every other regard.
I believe that's just wishful thinking. They will definitely increase the cost, reduce their stats, make them unable to benefit from auras and finally remove them from the codex. At least according to what I've heard.
I wish it was the 23rd so the Forge World-index was released, and we could actually see how our options there stack up. Considering that my present anti-tank basically consists of 5 Rapier Laser Destroyers, Leman Russ Vanquishers and Heavy Artillery, making a functional army right now is difficult.
I seriously doubt they will severely nerf the conscripts as you state. They may change the points, but I doubt this will even be done for awhile. They are more likely going to let this play out for awhile until it is proven to be broken. This is mailnly because it will sell LOTS of models.
Colonel Cross wrote: Just tried a new list against Tau. 150 power/3000pts. He got tabled turn 4. I have tried almost everything in our list, except for some artillery I don't have. My lists without battle tanks have proved to be the most effective. I actually feel kind of bad for my friends I've been playing ...
What kind of lists have you been running?
They have all incorporated a unit of 50 conscripts and at least 6x squads of guard, 2x deep striking minimal squads of Scions. This list was 2 BDEs. I had more CPs than I knew what to do with.
HQ: I had 3x company commanders, Straken, Yarrick, and a Lord Commissar (I think).
Troops: Conscripts, 2x 5 man teams of scions with meltas and plasma pistols, 9x guard squads with mixes of flamers/plasmas and heavy bolters/missiles/lascannon.
Elites: Ogryns in a Chimera, Bullgryn w/mauls in a chimera, 2x Commissar w/bolters, a priest, SGT Harker (practically an auto include as of now), and I had 2x special weapon squads in a chimera BUT next time I will use 3x command squads w/a heavy flamer and 3 meltas instead.
FA: 3x scout Sentinels, 2x armored sentinels, and rough riders
HS: Basilisk, Hydra, missile launcher HWS, 2xmortars, autocannon HWS.
My buddy had an ethereal, fireblade, battle suit commander, stealth suit team, 2x crisis squads burst cannon on 1 and plasma rifles and fusion on the other, a riptide, long strike and a buddy hammerhead, 3 squads of fire warriors with drones, 2x 20 kroot squads, their little bomber aircraft, and a large unit of pathfinders w/a few rail rifles.
I used all of my troops to hold 2 OBJs and make it too dangerous to hold the OBJ in the middle. Then conscripts w/lord commissar, 3 infantry squads, and a company commander advanced to apply pressure on other OBJs with a Taurox and 3 scout sentinels in support.
All heavy hitting mech stuff ended up getting deep striked on by the Tau commander and all his battle suits on turn 1. They were intended to hit his lines while scions and rough riders hit from behind and all my advancing infantry continued their advance. My 50 conscripts ended up savaging his 40 kroot. Do not underestimate Kroot en masse, especially when in rapid fire range! But they are brittle.
His battle suit death star and my ogryns, special characters, chimeras, and special weapons squads ended up in a brutal cat and mouse. I came out on top by far, though. Meanwhile my lascannon teams nuked his broadsides and all my infantry decimated his. SGT Harker in the center of my gunline allowed me to use the order Bring It Down on all my heavy weapon squads, which made a MASSIVE difference, especially given my ability to roll horrendously.
Scions took out his hammerheads in the back field and rough riders got crushed by his Riptide.
Takeaways:
If playing against an army without dedicated assault units, we can cause SERIOUS damage with our tool kit. Straken + a priest within several inches of each other stack +2 bonus attacks. Mix that in with conscripts, ogryn of any type, and commissars and you will have a buttload of attacks. It's funny because it's so unexpected. Meanwhile everything else can just cap OBJs. IG are seriously fun to play now.
The amount of heavy weapons we can bring to the table creates problems getting within range, even for Tau.
Being able to keep mortars out of LOS is great. Not only are they points efficient and great range, the psychological impact on your opponent may be the best part. It just messes with their plan.
Hiding Lascannon in squads is probably the best way to roll with those now. Repeatedly my opponent tried to whittle those squads down while ignoring missile launchers and autocannon heavy weapons teams because they weren't nuking hood broadsides and hammerheads.
Missilesides are DEADLY. As are their little bomber they have. I thought it was powerful so I set up units so turn 1 it had no way to fly over my conscripts. That thing managed to cause 7 mortal wounds on 1 squad with its bombs alone in 1 turn. Brutal for our large units of conscripts.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: On the MoO, why not just upgrade to Harker for 12pts. You don't need to worry about range, and Harker's gun will probably do more damage over the course of a game than the one-shot artillery barrage.
On the Death Riders, they do seem cool, but I want to point out they don't have chainswords. So while they can make more hunting lance attacks, after the initial charge, they perform very similarly to regular rough riders. Still neat units, and the extra hunting lance attacks is awesome!
Most people aren't using Catachans, so Harker's ability doesn't apply to them. At least that is how I understand the regiment keywords currently work. Harker is superior though imo, as the rerolls also don't have that 36" range limitation. Most people will probably allow you to use Harker in a non-Catachan army but in tournaments I can see them not permitting it.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: On the MoO, why not just upgrade to Harker for 12pts. You don't need to worry about range, and Harker's gun will probably do more damage over the course of a game than the one-shot artillery barrage.
On the Death Riders, they do seem cool, but I want to point out they don't have chainswords. So while they can make more hunting lance attacks, after the initial charge, they perform very similarly to regular rough riders. Still neat units, and the extra hunting lance attacks is awesome!
Most people aren't using Catachans, so Harker's ability doesn't apply to them. At least that is how I understand the regiment keywords currently work. Harker is superior though imo, as the rerolls also don't have that 36" range limitation. Most people will probably allow you to use Harker in a non-Catachan army but in tournaments I can see them not permitting it.
I would be surprised at anyone who didn't let you use whatever keyword you want, as long as you keep it consistent and don't try to mix things. People have always allowed counts-as on pretty much anything, even in tournaments.
usernamesareannoying wrote: What are the numbers calling the big winner for artillery, basilisk, wyvern, something else?
The Manticore is definitely the big winner.
For only 25 points more than the Basilisk, you get an average of 2 wounds worth 4 damage on a target. Strength 10 also means it is ideal for taking out Bikes (having T5 and 2 wounds each). It's main downside is it's limit of four shots. Though most battles are concluded by then. And heck, it can still function as a fairly tough roadbump.
But the Basilisk is by no means bad. It's 2D6 take the highest makes it fairly reliable (the Manticore no doubt will need a command re-roll on it's number of shots now and then). And S9 means it will wound pretty much anything that isn't a Titan on 3's. Not to mention that you can take them in squadrons of three, letting you take more of them in a small detachment.
The Wyvern is still a solid anti-infantry artillery piece, but get's a lot of competition from the Mortar heavy weapons squads. For the same price they put out more than double the shots, which can easily make up for the re-roll to wound that the Wyvern has.
The Deathstrike.... :( nope. It only fires on a 6+ turn 2, 5+ turn 3 etc. And even then on average it does 5-6 Mortal wounds to one target, and maybe two mortal wounds to two targets near it.
After watching a few battle reports, it really seems like the heavy bolter sponsons on the leman russes might be the way to go over plasma.
They are obviously inferior weapons, but heavy bolters seem to be a really good utility weapon to have around in this edition.
More importantly, if the vehicle movies, the overcharged sponsons get hot on a 1 or a 2, which is pretty terrible (and you can't weasel your way out by re-rolling 2's). And if you aren't overcharging, then you've overpaid for the the weapons.
Additionally, looking at a battle cannon versus an executioner plasma cannon: You're looking at greater range versus better AP. AP-3 is nice and all, but it seems like an awful lot of crap that you wanna shoot a Leman Russ turret at is gonna have a at least a 5++ anyway.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: On the MoO, why not just upgrade to Harker for 12pts. You don't need to worry about range, and Harker's gun will probably do more damage over the course of a game than the one-shot artillery barrage.
On the Death Riders, they do seem cool, but I want to point out they don't have chainswords. So while they can make more hunting lance attacks, after the initial charge, they perform very similarly to regular rough riders. Still neat units, and the extra hunting lance attacks is awesome!
Most people aren't using Catachans, so Harker's ability doesn't apply to them. At least that is how I understand the regiment keywords currently work. Harker is superior though imo, as the rerolls also don't have that 36" range limitation. Most people will probably allow you to use Harker in a non-Catachan army but in tournaments I can see them not permitting it.
They don't have to be catachan models to be catachan regiment. Unless you really want pask, kell, or creed your "cadian" models can also be whatever regiment you want(like harokoni warhawks).
Similarly your catachan models could be from a cadian regiment so long as you are not taking harker or straken.
They don't have to be catachan models to be catachan regiment. Unless you really want pask, kell, or creed your "cadian" models can also be whatever regiment you want(like harokoni warhawks).
Similarly your catachan models could be from a cadian regiment so long as you are not taking harker or straken.
Yeah, I built a list around having both. A Spearhead detachment with the keyword Catachan with artillery in every heavy slot, a Lord Commissar for an HQ, and Harker an an elite, and a Battalion with the keyword Cadian with Pask, a Command Tank, their friends, and my riflemen. Keyword abuse ho!
jaxor1983 wrote:After watching a few battle reports, it really seems like the heavy bolter sponsons on the leman russes might be the way to go over plasma.
They are obviously inferior weapons, but heavy bolters seem to be a really good utility weapon to have around in this edition.
More importantly, if the vehicle movies, the overcharged sponsons get hot on a 1 or a 2, which is pretty terrible (and you can't weasel your way out by re-rolling 2's). And if you aren't overcharging, then you've overpaid for the the weapons.
Additionally, looking at a battle cannon versus an executioner plasma cannon: You're looking at greater range versus better AP. AP-3 is nice and all, but it seems like an awful lot of crap that you wanna shoot a Leman Russ turret at is gonna have a at least a 5++ anyway.
I've been using Battle Tank with Multimeltas for Pask, and Punisher with Heavy Bolters for his first friend. It's been working out quite well. I'm adding in a Tank Commander Vanquisher with Multimeltas and am still deciding on the fourth one for larger lists.
At the moment, it barely does anything. It will (hopefully) become very relevant when the codex comes out, handing out bonuses for having a regiment as your faction keyword.
Yeah Straken and Harker are so good I've been using all infantry as catachan and vehicles as Cadian. Although it probably helps as some of my heavy weapons squads are catachan, all of my conscripts are catachan models, and then the infantry squads I maneuver have green stuff capes to mimic Tanith.
jaxor1983 wrote: At the moment, it barely does anything. It will (hopefully) become very relevant when the codex comes out, handing out bonuses for having a regiment as your faction keyword.
The regiment system stops you stacking buffs. It is also very likely that is will be expanded in the codex, with things like regimental stratagems.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Yeah, I built a list around having both. A Spearhead detachment with the keyword Catachan with artillery in every heavy slot, a Lord Commissar for an HQ, and Harker an an elite, and a Battalion with the keyword Cadian with Pask, a Command Tank, their friends, and my riflemen. Keyword abuse ho!
That is not really abuse, it seems like how it is intended to work.
A few questions didn't Cadia get seized by Chaos? Is a pure Cadian army really even a thing anymore?
Which leads me into my question can you take diffrent regiment keywords within the same formation? For example can you take Harker and Pask in the same army? I know their abilities wouldn't work on each other?
You could use the fluff that your cadian regiment or just Pask are refugees who have joined the Catachan regiment since the fall of Cadia.
I don't see why a BDE detachment couldn't incorporate Catachan, Cadian, Ad Mech, Ministorum, etc all within it. I mean, if you wanted to use a priest, why the hell would that require your to fill out a separate detachment? So why would various IG regiments not be able to mix and match?
Fluff wise, recall Gaunts Ghosts getting reinforced by other units and absorbing them? The Fall of Cadia would result in the same thing.
Colonel Cross wrote: I don't see why a BDE detachment couldn't incorporate Catachan, Cadian, Ad Mech, Ministorum, etc all within it. I mean, if you wanted to use a priest, why the hell would that require your to fill out a separate detachment? So why would various IG regiments not be able to mix and match?
Fluff wise, recall Gaunts Ghosts getting reinforced by other units and absorbing them? The Fall of Cadia would result in the same thing.
It can, easily.
Heck most if the time it should. But there are certain limitations such as admech not getting canticles unless the whole detachment is admech. I think there are a few other faction rules that only apply in a pure faction detatchment.
That said what I meant by not getting the named characters in their opposing regiments is that the buffs for those models do not apply.
I have all cadian models and have a converted cadian-model Harker from back in 5th. I can field him and all of my other models as Catachans just fine(I also field a bunch of bassies manticores and russes and hadn't even noticed his MoO-like rule so just might do so). I also have a converted from plastics creed and kell, but probably wont use them.
Yeah that's what I was saying. I don't think anyone would care if you have cadian models but use catachan rules.
I didn't see that rule about canticles only applying to a pure admech detachment. I'll have to read into that. I just got some ad mech so my imperium army is more representative.
On another topic, has anyone struggled in any 8th edition games so far? If so, what army was it against? I've pretty much tabled my opponent every game so far. We just bring so much to the table now. Scions deep striking, rough riders flanking, conscripts are auto include meat shields, orders are nasty, commissars are so good, artillery is great, mortars, Astropath is dirt cheap and can make a blob +1 to their save AND remove cover from an enemy unit! SGT Harker/Commissar Yarrick. The list goes on. It's a great time to be guard.
It just seems like if you were facing guard, it's a hell of a tough time sticking to your battle plan and prioritizing threats.
NivlacSupreme wrote: There's no point in the <Regiment> system. All it does is stop people from using their cool character conversions.
It's to prevent the "super friends" shenanigans we saw in 7th.
Right now with Indexes it seems kind of pointless due to how simple the lists are, but when codexes come back I'm sure we'll see why GW included it.
To be fair it was really dumb that Harker, Straken, Creed, Pask, and Yarrick could all show up in the same list when supposedly they were all fighting in different areas and would have no reason to all be in the same place at the same time. And that's saying nothing of the shenanigans Space marine players were doing where multiple chapter masters from differing chapters just happened to all be fighting in the same little spot of the battle at the same time.
broxus wrote: A few questions didn't Cadia get seized by Chaos? Is a pure Cadian army really even a thing anymore?
There are plenty of Cadians and Cadian companies battling around the galaxy. They weren't restricted to Cadia.
A Cadian tabletop army in 8th can easily represent one of these exiled armies.
Maurader Destroyer looks fun. I would guess it'll be too expensive to be competitive, but not getting the -1 for moving is nice. Also, bombs can do up to 12 mortal wounds.
By the Emperor's skeletal shinbone. Up to eight Hellstrike missiles, and they're not one-shot here either. Combined with the stock weapons we're looking at a shooting phase of:
Eight Hellstrike missiles: Heavy 8 S8 AP-2 D1d6
Three twin autocannons: Heavy 12 S7 AP-1 D2
One twin assault cannon: Heavy 12 S6 AP-1 D1
One twin heavy bolter: Heavy 6 S5 AP-1 D1
And then once per battle, you can make every unit that you flew over that turn take up to 12d6 mortal wounds hitting on 4+.
Give that thing an officer of the fleet!
Edit: Oh, I read the bombs wrong, it's 12 shots hitting on 4+. Still pretty good though, you can fit a lot of units under 45" of movement. And the standard shooting is still amazing, 38 shots per turn more or less evenly spread across S5-S8, all with a bit of AP.
ross-128 wrote: ...you can make every unit that you flew over that turn take up to 12d6 mortal wounds hitting on 4+.
Sadly, it is only one unit. Maybe you could convince your playgroup to use the "leaving combat airspace" rule? Extra bombs!
Automatically Appended Next Post: This thing looks almost designed to use all of the dogfight phase rules. That would probably be really fun, defending against fighters or having a fighter escort.
Oh, well only being one unit actually kind of makes the bombs nearly useless. So a vehicle will typically take 1-2 wounds, a typical 10-man infantry squad will take 5 wounds. Could potentially be good if you drop it on something really expensive and really reliant on its saves, so that having those saves bypassed is quite a big deal to it. Other than that I guess you're basically taking it as a heavy Punisher.
Though that heavy Punisher should be just scary enough to draw a ton of shooting toward that flying T7/3+ model with 20 wounds, combined with the -1 to hit it it'll probably be a pretty decent bullet sponge. Though that means it would be competing with a regular Punisher Russ, which is less killy being 29 shots at S5, but is significantly cheaper and can extend its sponginess with a tech priest.
Still, a rough approximation of an Autocannon with the Punisher's rate of fire is pretty tempting...
To be fair, the Marauder Destroyer is the low altitude ground attack variant. The Marauder Bomber is the high altitude version. It gets (going off old rules) twin lascannon, 2x twin heavy bolters, more bombs, and the option to swap the bombs for hellstorm bombs, which were basically apoc-flamer napalm strikes (str7 ap3). The destroyer has always been the better version but maybe points will come into it and the bomber will be better.
jaxor1983 wrote: Are there other AM imperial armour leaks somewhere?
Only the Marauder, Death Riders and Malcador Infernus so far. The book is out in the morning though, so if more leaks are going to happen it is likely to be soon. I'm waiting mainly for the Vulture and the Mars Alpha Vanquisher, as those are the only models I own. I guess the DKOK could be fun too, I'm open to counts-asing my forces if they look fun. I know I'm going to use my cold one riders as Death Riders, they look decent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Punisher Vulture is 160!?
Well I guess I know how to start every list now. It even got +1 to hit non-fly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So it looks like there is no way to take the FW russes as tank commanders. However, the stygies Vanquisher looks nice. co-axial rule is the same, reroll if co-ax hits. Styies also gets "+1 to hit if stationary". Mars alpha hulls get +1 save against str4 or lower.
Colonel Cross wrote: I don't see why a BDE detachment couldn't incorporate Catachan, Cadian, Ad Mech, Ministorum, etc all within it. I mean, if you wanted to use a priest, why the hell would that require your to fill out a separate detachment? So why would various IG regiments not be able to mix and match?
Fluff wise, recall Gaunts Ghosts getting reinforced by other units and absorbing them? The Fall of Cadia would result in the same thing.
They can mix and match within the same detachment as long as they have a faction keyword that is the same. In the case of Cadian and Catachan, for example, the keyword is Imperium. You just can't use buffs etc on units with different keywords.
I have the Astra Militarum forgeworld ebook now if anyone has questions!
The Stormhammer is indeed my new go-to superheavy, with essentially two main guns, a boatload of bolters, and potentially 7 lascannons if one goes crazy enough (though you lose the bolters).
Oh, and a co-axial multilaser which makes one of the main guns twin-linked (essentially).
The Malcadors remain unimpressive but, as suspected, moved to Heavy Support.
The thunderbolt is hilariously good (15 wounds, what?).
Saber wrote: For those of you with the Forgeworld Index, how is the Armageddon Basilisk different from the standard Basilisk?
Is the only difference between the Gryphonne Chimera and the standard the Chimera the ability to take Twin Heavy Bolter and Autocannon turrets?
Thanks.
The Armageddon Pattern has T7 W12, and costs 15 points extra.
The Gryphonne Chimera can only take Twin Heavy Bolters (14 pts) in its turret. Otherwise it's the same. The Krieg Storm Chimera has an autocannon and can take an upgrade for +1 save for S4 or lower weapons (and ignores land mines on a 4+) for 80 pts base, which I guess includes that ablative armour upgrade since it doesn't have a cost listed anywhere.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The thunderbolt is hilariously good (15 wounds, what?).
The main guns only hit fliers on a 5+, I thought it was 6+ until I noticed they have base 3+. I guess 5+ isn't too bad. The six skystrike option makes them very nice AA with the missiles not being one use. I think I would house rule them to be one use though, it seems silly otherwise. Although looking at the cost, maybe not...
I'd like to hear the philosophy of the munitorum, whose idea it was to put 6 lascannons on a vehicle that hits 1/3 of the time when it moves and 1/6 of the time against something else that is flying... It really seems like a waste of munitions.
(referring to the the mostly useless vendetta)
The Vendetta is not a dogfighter. It's more like a helicopter. It's primarily meant to fire at ground targets while in hover mode, flying mode is to get it into position (though with 48" of range that's probably only relevant in apocalypse games).
Of course, the vendetta will also never really be as cost effective as other dedicated lascannon platforms because it has a 12 model transport capacity, and transport capacity is apparently a rather steep premium in 8th. But it does mean you can drop off something like a melta squad in a fly-by, then switch to hover mode and start blasting stuff.
I do wish that hover-flyers like the Vendetta got a little extra wiggle room though, like "ignores the -1 penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving if it has moved less than 10" this turn", that would be a good rule.
ross-128 wrote: The Vendetta is not a dogfighter. It's more like a helicopter. It's primarily meant to fire at ground targets while in hover mode, flying mode is to get it into position (though with 48" of range that's probably only relevant in apocalypse games).
Of course, the vendetta will also never really be as cost effective as other dedicated lascannon platforms because it has a 12 model transport capacity, and transport capacity is apparently a rather steep premium in 8th. But it does mean you can drop off something like a melta squad in a fly-by, then switch to hover mode and start blasting stuff.
I do wish that hover-flyers like the Vendetta got a little extra wiggle room though, like "ignores the -1 penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving if it has moved less than 10" this turn", that would be a good rule.
While it does seem like it's intended to be a gunship, it's lack of strafing run says otherwise. It instead appears to be an incredibly overpriced transport with a deathstrike caliber randomness of damage output.
Elysians seem to be more or less standard Guardsmen that pay an extra 1 point on all their infantry (and an extra 10 points on their officers) for army-wide deep-strike.
However, this does mean that their command squads can deep-strike plasma for 8 points cheaper than Scions can. Also their plasma guns/plasma pistols do 3 points of damage when overcharged instead of 2, but that's probably a typo I think? Don't know how they managed to get the same typo on both weapon profiles, but there you go. They can also deep strike all their vehicles though, so there's that.
So basically I'd mostly see Elysians as a budget substitute for stormtroopers, army-wide deep strike on an all-Elysian army isn't as valuable now that null deploy has been killed off, but some sky-diving Elysians can bring utility to a standard army for a reasonable price.
ross-128 wrote: I do wish that hover-flyers like the Vendetta got a little extra wiggle room though, like "ignores the -1 penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving if it has moved less than 10" this turn", that would be a good rule.
I personally hate the -1 to hit rule, it makes me want to sit still all the time! For instance, seeing people use Taurox Primes as a gunline when they should be zipping around raising hell.
ross-128 wrote: I do wish that hover-flyers like the Vendetta got a little extra wiggle room though, like "ignores the -1 penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving if it has moved less than 10" this turn", that would be a good rule.
I personally hate the -1 to hit rule, it makes me want to sit still all the time! For instance, seeing people use Taurox Primes as a gunline when they should be zipping around raising hell.
Yeah, I understand why it's on infantry (it's replacing the old "snap shots when moving", which in turn replaced "no firing and moving"), but vehicles and MCs were subject to neither of those rules in the past, and so in my opinion shouldn't be subject to that penalty now. Or at the very least, should have a movement window where they can fire without penalty and only take the penalty if they want to go faster.
So is there somewhere that says that a unit counts as having moved at the end of the movement phase when you set it up on the battlefield after an Aerial Drop?
While it does seem like it's intended to be a gunship, it's lack of strafing run says otherwise. It instead appears to be an incredibly overpriced transport with a deathstrike caliber randomness of damage output.
Hover mode?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jaxor1983 wrote: So is there somewhere that says that a unit counts as having moved at the end of the movement phase when you set it up on the battlefield after an Aerial Drop?
Nevermind, it's covered on under movement rules..
Far as I can tell, it doesn't use those rules. GSI specifically says it's "disembarking", which allows normal movement afterwards. Barring some sort of errata, any relationship that 9" has to any other rule happen to be coincidental.
Since they (for some reason) do 3 damage per supercharged shot.. that's 34 shots within 12" that can do 102 damage..
Honestly I don't think I would play against someone who didn't think the 3 damage was a typo. I'll let GSC have their str 9 vanquishers but that is more because I am jealous.
So the Malcador Heavy Tank is pretty much Leman Russ with 6 extra wounds. Same stats (barring the practically useless leadership stat). They can both take a hull lascannon and both get battle cannons, and while the Malcador can take sponson lascannons the LR can take multi-melta's which are the same cost and probably fairly equivalent on the table. So the real difference is the wounds stat (6 more on the Malc). Is it worth paying the 58 extra points for 6 extra wounds? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere?
Demantiae wrote: So the Malcador Heavy Tank is pretty much Leman Russ with 6 extra wounds. Same stats (barring the practically useless leadership stat). They can both take a hull lascannon and both get battle cannons, and while the Malcador can take sponson lascannons the LR can take multi-melta's which are the same cost and probably fairly equivalent on the table. So the real difference is the wounds stat (6 more on the Malc). Is it worth paying the 58 extra points for 6 extra wounds? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere?
Currently the Malcador takes up a slot by itself as well, while you can fit 3 Russ in one slot. You will also be -1 to hit if you move the with the Malcador's Battle Cannon, not with the Russ.
Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.
It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).
Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.
"A roll of 1 to hit allways fails irrespective of any modifiers"
From the Roll to hit rules in the core rules.
Per the FAQ the +1 still comes into play after the miss for things like supercharged plasma. So you will miss with a nat 1 but still be immune to overheat.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.
It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).
Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.
They sound cool but I would be surprised if they last past turn 1. They seem like first blood fodder to me. If they could stay in squadrons then I would like them a lot more.
jaxor1983 wrote: The combination of a couple search lights, harker, and a manticore seems pretty damned good.
I'd rather have two basilisks really. More firepower and a lot harder to kill. Those lights are not getting past turn 1. Imagine if a squad of 3 marines gave units +1 to hit. Think they would live long?
Demantiae wrote: So the Malcador Heavy Tank is pretty much Leman Russ with 6 extra wounds. Same stats (barring the practically useless leadership stat). They can both take a hull lascannon and both get battle cannons, and while the Malcador can take sponson lascannons the LR can take multi-melta's which are the same cost and probably fairly equivalent on the table. So the real difference is the wounds stat (6 more on the Malc). Is it worth paying the 58 extra points for 6 extra wounds? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere?
I think this is a typo. Because the Malc Defender has that same rule the LR has and the Heavy Malc fills the same roll as the LR. It'd be pretty odd that it lacked the rule, I think it was just missed off and expect it to get FAQ'd. Not the only daft mistkae in the book.
As for force org slots, why is anybody taking them as 3 per slot? Surely you should be trying to max out your 3 detachments and get as many command points as possible? If you take 3 LR's then by taking just a single HQ you can fill out a Spearhead Detachment and get another CP. You shouldn't be trying to fill out each detachment.
so assuming the move and fire does get corrected, what's the value of 6 more wounds on this tank?
The only Malcador weapons to get the grinding advance rules are the hull mounted demolishers, none of them get it for the turret mount. I think it is intended and not a mistake.
The bolters are no longer restricted to firing one way.
Not really. You pay 296 points for a tougher Russ (W18 instead of W12) with 7 Heavy Bolters that still suffer -1 to hit when moving and a Demolisher Cannon which do not suffer it. If you really like Heavy Bolters I guess it would be nice, but one Leman Russ Demolisher with 3 Heavy Bolters cost 196. The Malcadors are not terrible but I wouldn't say that they are anything but average. You could almost get 2 Conquerors with 3 Heavy Bolters each for the same price and I would say that they are superior.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: The only Malcador weapons to get the grinding advance rules are the hull mounted demolishers, none of them get it for the turret mount. I think it is intended and not a mistake.
I agree with your analysis but it seems pretty dumb. You pay approx. 60 points for the 6 additional wounds, so I think they could just have thrown that rule in for the hell of it. It doesn't need a penalty for moving.
Vehicle wise the only ones that stand out to me as worth buying are a Malcador Infernus, a Trojan (for fun with a Stormlord), or a Stormhammer. The Malcador variants are undewhelming, the Macharius are poor Baneblade chassis copies and most of the other stuff has better vanilla alternatives.
I was thinking that a trojan would be better with a shadowsword. A macharius vulcan would be nice too, if you RAI the double shot rule to actually work. Or hover a vulture next to it.
Speaking of vultures, anyone like the idea of putting one on a skyshield landing pad for the 5+ save? You hit on 3+ too. 110 pts is a fair bit but the vulture already seems cheap. You can put some HWSs or something up there too.
Colonel Cross wrote: I acquired 2 Valkyries and a Vendetta in 7th. Shame they are trash now, they're such amazing models!
Valkyries are possibly the best transport in the game now. No other transport can have a unit move after disembarking. It could get FAQed though. Vendettas are still pretty good they just have to hover now. Basically they have gone back to how they worked in 5th. They have 1 less toughness than a russ, yet 2 more wounds. Hardly made of paper.
NivlacSupreme wrote: So the Death Korps take vanilla tank commanders but have to take their own weird tanks?
They take the normal tank commander datasheet. None of the tanks in the book can be tank commanders, which is a shame.
Yeah but then the only russes they can have are Mars-alpha pattern ones. The only difference seems to be that they can take co-axial weapons but still.
Colonel Cross wrote: I acquired 2 Valkyries and a Vendetta in 7th. Shame they are trash now, they're such amazing models!
Valkyries are possibly the best transport in the game now. No other transport can have a unit move after disembarking. It could get FAQed though. Vendettas are still pretty good they just have to hover now. Basically they have gone back to how they worked in 5th. They have 1 less toughness than a russ, yet 2 more wounds. Hardly made of paper.
Very true. I feel like a child, haha. I just really enjoyed the model and wanted it to actually be able to hit targets. I did try 2 of them out in a game, with lascannon, heavy bolters, and multiple rocket pods. They spit out a ton of firepower but with practically BS 5+, tended to only be a nuisance. I suppose they are great to stay supersonic until point grabs at the end of the game ...
How's the Vulture and Vendetta looking though? Those are probably the only reason for me to buy IA.
Thunderer Siege tank has been mispointed I think. 210 pts for essentially +1 wound (and minus a Heavy Bolter) when compared to a Leman Russ Demolisher, (which is 30 pts cheaper!) and can't receive orders either.
Feels like it should be 170 pts which is its base cost but someone forgot it pays for the 40pt cannon separately. Shame as I have one, reckon some kind of coupla Heavy Bolter is in order to make it a Russ for now!
Well they are allowed to use the Tank Commander sheet, so they at least can take all of the variants listed on that one. You can't take a mars pattern tank commander.
Also, mars patterns get the "+1 save against st4 or lower" rule, which is a nice free buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MaxT wrote: Thunderer Siege tank has been mispointed I think. 210 pts for essentially +1 wound (and minus a Heavy Bolter) when compared to a Leman Russ Demolisher, (which is 30 pts cheaper!) and can't receive orders either.
Feels like it should be 170 pts which is its base cost but someone forgot it pays for the 40pt cannon separately. Shame as I have one, reckon some kind of coupla Heavy Bolter is in order to make it a Russ for now!
Honestly, I would just run it at 170 and explain the situation to your opponent. A reasonable person familiar with this FW book should allow it. Against random pickup opponents who don't play FW, could go either way.
Yeah that's what I meant. I really won't be surprised if it goes. I can see a "cannot move after using grav-chute" rule easily being added.
While it is strange that it comes so close to the new "deep strike" rule and yet doesn't cover that edge case, it wouldn't ever be worth taking with that change unless they also dropped the points by at least 50. And even then I'm not certain.
Yeah that's what I meant. I really won't be surprised if it goes. I can see a "cannot move after using grav-chute" rule easily being added.
While it is strange that it comes so close to the new "deep strike" rule and yet doesn't cover that edge case, it wouldn't ever be worth taking with that change unless they also dropped the points by at least 50. And even then I'm not certain.
I don't know, it would still be the only unit that could drop after moving. It would just be used for getting squads into good firing positions/cover instead of right up in their face and assaulting.
So a fully kitted out Baneblade with Baneblade Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Demolisher Cannon, 4x Lascannon / Twin Heavy Flamers sponsons comes out at 674.
A Stormhammer with a Stormhammer Cannon, Twin Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2x side Lascannons and 4x side Heavy Flamers comes out at 518.
So you save 150+ points for roughly the same amount of firepower.
Loopstah wrote: So a fully kitted out Baneblade with Baneblade Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Demolisher Cannon, 4x Lascannon / Twin Heavy Flamers sponsons comes out at 674.
A Stormhammer with a Stormhammer Cannon, Twin Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2x side Lascannons and 4x side Heavy Flamers comes out at 518.
So you save 150+ points for roughly the same amount of firepower.
Why take a Baneblade?
Thanks for noticing. I already have a company of stormhammers and they're my go-to tanks in this edition for fielding a company .
FWIW apparently demolisher cannons are super duper awesome and cost more than a twin battlecannon.
Loopstah wrote: So a fully kitted out Baneblade with Baneblade Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Demolisher Cannon, 4x Lascannon / Twin Heavy Flamers sponsons comes out at 674.
A Stormhammer with a Stormhammer Cannon, Twin Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2x side Lascannons and 4x side Heavy Flamers comes out at 518.
So you save 150+ points for roughly the same amount of firepower.
Why take a Baneblade?
Mainly because 4 twin heavy flamers are extremely potent against hordes, it can almost solo entire melee armies on its own
Loopstah wrote: So a fully kitted out Baneblade with Baneblade Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Demolisher Cannon, 4x Lascannon / Twin Heavy Flamers sponsons comes out at 674.
A Stormhammer with a Stormhammer Cannon, Twin Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2x side Lascannons and 4x side Heavy Flamers comes out at 518.
So you save 150+ points for roughly the same amount of firepower.
Why take a Baneblade?
Isen't the stormhammer a FW model, and only in the FW book? If so, then that's an argument against it
Loopstah wrote: So a fully kitted out Baneblade with Baneblade Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Demolisher Cannon, 4x Lascannon / Twin Heavy Flamers sponsons comes out at 674.
A Stormhammer with a Stormhammer Cannon, Twin Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2x side Lascannons and 4x side Heavy Flamers comes out at 518.
So you save 150+ points for roughly the same amount of firepower.
Why take a Baneblade?
Isen't the stormhammer a FW model, and only in the FW book? If so, then that's an argument against it
Loopstah wrote: So a fully kitted out Baneblade with Baneblade Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, Demolisher Cannon, 4x Lascannon / Twin Heavy Flamers sponsons comes out at 674.
A Stormhammer with a Stormhammer Cannon, Twin Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2x side Lascannons and 4x side Heavy Flamers comes out at 518.
So you save 150+ points for roughly the same amount of firepower.
Why take a Baneblade?
Isen't the stormhammer a FW model, and only in the FW book? If so, then that's an argument against it
Why would that be an argument against it?
No! Not a Forge World legality argument! I beg of you, I have seen enough to last a lifetime. Many a good thread had been derailed by "it's not official", "yes it is", multiplied by ten pages.
Leman Russ body, Colossus Siege Mortar is Heavy 2D6 S6 AP-2 Dd3 No LoS, no cover saves. 158 points with weapon and mandatory heavy bolter. Explodes, Smoke Launchers and Vehicle Squadron.
The Vulture's missile loadouts are looking pretty interesting now, though it will be hard to pass up Heavy 40 Punisher Cannons. 2 lascannons with 6 of the AA missiles seems pretty good because those missiles will still hit ground targets on 4s due to strafing run while hitting <Fly> models on 3s, 2 Lascannons and 6 missiles per turn seems pretty good no?
Vulture + skyshield + trojan is what I was thinking. Stick some searchlights up there too, and a few infantry to keep things away and you have a nice fire base. Probably wouldn't want to take the punishers though, they are short range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, can bombs target characters? I don't think it would be an efficient use of them but I think it is possible by the rules.
Well that is bollocks. Heavy Stubbers are an integral part to the theme of the Death Korps, if anything regular Guard should be able to take them as well.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.
It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).
Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.
Have you noticed how the searchlights can only benefit units in the same regiment as the Sabre, and that neither Militarum Tempestus nor Elysian Drop Troops can take Sabres?
Just did my third game of 8th ed and wanted to share some results of my units.
-Astropaths. Holy gak are these guys worth it for their ridiculous low price. Just the Ignore cover bubble and denying spells alone are they well worth it. I'd say they are pretty much an auto-include unless you are absolutely sure you aren't going against psykers. But even then they are so worth it.
-Snipers: I was on the receiving end of 5 Rangers + a Ranger character (forgot his name). And the pretty much took a Commissar, Astropath or even a Company Commander per turn. Now you could argue that I did not place them out of LOS, but the fact that his snipers could appear on the board after everything was deployed makes this incredibly difficult., especially with some elevated terrain.
Now some would argue that it is a lot of points for sniping characters, but the effect was well worth it. I lost 10 conscripts in a turn and the morale phase killed another 10 of them!
I honestly think that people who will argue 'just daisy-chain them to get out LoS' play with too much or too dense terrain. Doesn't have to be a city-fight esque battle every time guys, just some trees, craters and maybe two small ruins will do just fine as well.
Even with creating massive daisy-chains (which will cost a lot of models to do), snipers seem definitely worth it. Gonna try my two Vindicare Assassins once I've received them by mail.
-Mortar teams are kick-ass. Again low-priced and their sheer amount of firepower will ruin pretty much any light-infantry's day.
-Infantry squads. While everyone has the hots for conscripts, these simple infantry squads with a Plasma gun and a Lascannon work great. Give them some orders and they will do well in pretty much any situation thanks to the 'split-fire' general rule.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.
It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).
Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.
Have you noticed how the searchlights can only benefit units in the same regiment as the Sabre, and that neither Militarum Tempestus nor Elysian Drop Troops can take Sabres?
Hmm, the main thing I didn't notice was that Elysians couldn't take them. That's pretty unfortunate.
Still, there are quite a lot of things that can benefit from a +1 to hit.
One thing that's kind of funny is that the unit receiving the benefit doesn't have to be in any particular range, and doesn't need LoS to either the Saber or the target. So it can support artillery very well. A group Earthshaker platforms clustered around a Trojan, and supported by searchlights for each platform (since the new squadron rule splits them into separate units, useful on many things, but dubious on a stationary platform) could make a strong fire-support base. Basilisk rounds hitting on 3s with full re-rolls.
Especially since the new Earthshaker/Basilisk has no penalty at all for shooting out of LoS, and has no minimum range for indirect fire. The 28 points you get from turning a Basilisk into an Earthshaker platform even neatly pays for the searchlight (with 8 points left over).
Edit: of course, the searchlights would have to be scattered around the deployment zone so *they* can get LoS on stuff.
Have you had a chance yet to try out Wyverns? I don't have any Manticores as of yet, but I do have 2 Wyverns. Although I guess I could just proxy them...
Have you had a chance yet to try out Wyverns? I don't have any Manticores as of yet, but I do have 2 Wyverns. Although I guess I could just proxy them...
Yes, they're still pretty good. They're not as good as they used to be, having been increased in cost and reduced in lethality, but they're definitely pretty decent. Kills a small handful of guys a turn.
My force:
Pask, Battle Tank, Multimeltas, Lascannon
Company Commander
Conscripts
Infantry Squad, Lascannon
Custodian Guard
Commissar
Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought, Kheres Assault Cannon
Punisher, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Bolter
Venerable Land Raider
Shadowsword, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Enemy Force:
Swarmlord
Tervigon
Termigaunts
Termigaunts
Hormagaunts
Hive Guard
Old One Eye
Toxicrine
Trygon Prime
Melee Carnifex
Melee Carnifex
Melee Carnifex
We were playing The Scouring, and I chose deployment pattern, selecting Hammer and Anvil. He put out all his guys right along the front line, with the Swarmlord and Tervigon right in the middle, flanked by the two Termigaunt Squads, and the Carnifexes anchoring his left, my right, of the line, and his Trygon in reserve and Hormagaunts in its tunnel. I made a line of Conscripts across the front of my deployment zone, with my Shadowsword in the back right corner, my Infantry Squad on a hill towards the rear-left, the Punisher and Dreadnought front and center, 4" behind the conscripts, the Land Raider in front of the Shadowsword, and Pask trailing a safe distance behind the Punisher.
We roll to assign the major and minor objectives, and my home objective ends up the major objective and my forward objective ends up the minor objective.
I spend a CP and successfully seize the imitative from him, netting me first turn.
IG 1: Conscripts move up 6" on the right and center, taking over my natural expansion objective [the one in the no-man's land close to me], but stay back on the left, forming a dogleg in my line. The Punisher and Dreadnought move up into the corner of the conscript line, still staying dutifully 4" behind the Conscripts, and the Land Raider moves up around a rocky outcropping separating my right flank from my center and left. Conscripts shoot a squad of Termigaunts under First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!. Guardsmen shoot the Swarmlord under Bring it Down!, doing nothing. Punisher shoots the same Termigaunts the Conscripts shot under Gunners, Kill on Sight!. Pask fires on the Swarmlord and gets 5 shots, erasing the Hive Guard and putting a small dent on the big guy himself. The Venerable Land Raider fires its Twin Heavy Bolter at the same Termigaunt squad as the Punisher and the Conscripts, and it's Twin Lascannons at the Swarmlord, reducing the big guy to 2 wounds. I fire the Dreadnought at the Swarmlord, because I want to save the Volcano Cannon for the Tervigon or the 'fexes, but it doesn't manage to strip the last two wounds. At this point, I notice that there's a single Termigaunt left from the squad I had been shooting at that I didn't notice before, hiding underneath the Carnifexes, all I have left if the Shadowsword, and my Heavy Bolters are out of range. I fire my Lascannons at the 'gaunt and the Volcano Cannon at the Swarmlord, killing both with a CP re-roll, and that's the end of my first turn.
Tyranids 1: The unmolested 'gaunt squad scurries back to secure his home and forward objectives, the Tervigon stays near his forward one, and the rest of the army advances at full speed. The Trygon burrows up on the left flank, in the crook of the dogleg, and the Hormagaunts come rushing out of the tunnel. He uses Onslaught on the Toxicrene, allowing it to charge. The Toxicrene charges the Conscripts first right in the center in front of where my Punisher and Dreadnought are, followed by the Trygon into the left of the line and the Hormagaunts right into the dog-leg area, behind where the tank is, packing in 30 things in about 8" of frontline. The Hormagaunts lead, killing off a huge number of guys, but I remove them from the far right flank where the conscripts aren't embattled, then when I reach the Toxicrene, I remove from the far left near the Trygon. It almost kills the Trygon out of combat, but fortunately doesn't, and while it kills itself out of combat and some of the guys near the Hormagaunts, it can't reach the Lascannon team with its consolidation. The Toxicrene goes last, and I can't afford to let it kill itself out of combat because it will reach the tanks if it does so, and it fortunately doesn't. That ends his turn.
IG 2: The dozen surviving Conscripts fall back, forming a thin diagonal line between the outcropping separating the center from the right flank and the Lascannon squad's hill, where the Company Commander and Commissar also are. The tank and Dreadnought fall back to behind the Conscript line. The Land Raider unloads the Custodians and backs up, barricading the path between the outcropping of rocks and the right edge of the board. The Custodians move forwards, towards the Carnifexes. The surviving Conscripts act under Get Back in the Fight! to kill a small number of Hormagaunts, and the Infantry Squad use First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! to thin out the Hormagaunts much more significantly. They put their Lascannon shot into the Trygon prime, doing nothing. The Punisher acts under Gunners, Kill on Sight! to rip up the Hormagaunts. The Shadowsword uses a CP to get a good number of shots out of the Volcano Cannon, and vaporizes the Trygon Prime on the spot. It uses it's Heavy Bolters to shred the Hormagaunts further. I had allocated the Lascannons to fire at the Trygon, so their shooting is lost. Pask unloads on the Toxicrene with all his weapons, since he's now in Multimelta range, and pulverizes it. The Land Raider shoots Old One Eye, taking off a little bit of his health. The Custodians shoot a 'fex, actually doing a not-terrible amount of damage. The Custodians charge all the 'fexes, which turns out to be a hilariously bad idea, and try to focus down the wounded one, but don't even manage that, and are wiped out by the Carnifexes' retaliation. I thought they could kill one, and at least hold the others for a turn, but nope, Carnifexes are scary. The remaining four Hormagaunts die from battleshock, and that's the end of my turn.
Tyranids 2: The Carnifex killblob and Old One Eye moves to attack the Land Raider, and advances. The Tervigon stay carefully in range to give Onslaught. There's no shooting phase, and the Carnifexes charge the Land Raider, followed by Old One Eye using a CP to make sure they both succeed, deleting it, and consolidate to be perilously close to the Shadowsword, but still more than an inch away. That ends his turn.
IG 3: Pask moves closer to them to get within half range on the Multimeltas because it's now or never for killing the 'fexes. Punisher stays in place, and the Dreadnought comes around to help and charge the Carnifexes if he has to in order to save the Shadowsword. The conscripts move back forward to re-secure my natural expansion objective. I unload everything into the Carnifexes, Pask kills one, the Infantry, Dreadnought, and Punisher work together to kill one, and the Shadowsword kills off Old One Eye with its Volcano Cannon and finishes the one the Custodians had been beating on with its Heavy Bolter array. That's the turn, and the game, because the Tyranids concede with all their heavy hitters dead and not nearly enough units remaining to out-score me on objective.
In retrospect: I would have traded all 800-odd points of Custodians for additional artillery and tanks. A Command Vanquisher would have matched or exceeded the Land Raider for fewer points, and it goes without saying that anything would have been more effective than my Custodian Guard squad. I did make a bad play with them there, but I would much rather have had Wyverns and Manticores. The Dreadnought should also have been traded for a second Punisher, hands down. The Shadowsword and Pask were hands-down amazing. The Conscripts did their job well too. Additional screening, perhaps a second layer of conscripts or, because I don't think I can fit in more conscripts effectively on the tabletop, strategically-placed infantry squads, will be required in the future, and I was fortunate all his Hormagaunts were concentrated in the dogleg region and packed in so heavily, because otherwise they would have been able to spill past and reach my tanks with their 6" consolidation.
Have you had a chance yet to try out Wyverns? I don't have any Manticores as of yet, but I do have 2 Wyverns. Although I guess I could just proxy them...
Yes, they're still pretty good. They're not as good as they used to be, having been increased in cost and reduced in lethality, but they're definitely pretty decent. Kills a small handful of guys a turn.
Would you recommend taking them or trying to fit in a Manticore or maybe a Basilisk instead?
Have you had a chance yet to try out Wyverns? I don't have any Manticores as of yet, but I do have 2 Wyverns. Although I guess I could just proxy them...
Yes, they're still pretty good. They're not as good as they used to be, having been increased in cost and reduced in lethality, but they're definitely pretty decent. Kills a small handful of guys a turn.
Would you recommend taking them or trying to fit in a Manticore or maybe a Basilisk instead?
That depends. It's not a hierarchy of artillery, the Basilisk and Manticore aren't "upgrades" to the Wyvern.
A Manticore is an upgrade to a Basilisk, but both are "sidegrades" to Wyverns.
The wyvern is for shredding light infantry, so the real question is whether or not you'd rather have a Leman Russ Punisher or Hellhound.
Does anyone know of a good proxy for a Sabre Defense Searchlight? I had no idea Forgewold stopped making them (probably because they were utterly useless until right now).
Hmm, you could probably take a searchlight off any IG vehicle sprue (if they have a spare, I'd hold off on de-lighting actual vehicles until the codex comes out since they might come back) and stick it on some kind of tower, or a tarantula turret base.
Or you could pull a searchlight from pretty much any 28mm model line, at the end of the day it's just a big round light. 1/58 is pretty close for companies that list their scale that way. I don't think there's an equivalent railroad scale, since it's about halfway between O and OO.
I guess if you put the searchlight on the ground instead of a tower, you might be able to strategically position infantry models to make sure only its intended target has LoS to it... that would probably be fiddly and annoying though.
I've been asking this already in other topic, but i dont get enough replies. Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?
Or take special weapons squard, set them, let's say, 3 inces away from the enemy, use order, throw 6d6 frag grenades, shot 6 lasgun shots (since the wargear options says "take option" not replace lasgun) and after that go full Killer Queen (is that a JoJo reference?!) and smash the ones who survived with 3 breacher charges?
Also fire every frag grenade and every lasgun at different target, 8th edition is cool.
Also, if I was building an infantry heavy list, conscripts are the way to go right? Are the claims of them being broken true?
That's currently the topic of another thread in the General Discussion board, and right now it's just a cluster feth of an argument. I personally think they're not that broken, but there are a number of people who think that they are.
Also, if I was building an infantry heavy list, conscripts are the way to go right? Are the claims of them being broken true?
The Conscripts are mathematically somewhat broken. Points per toughness, they are very hard to beat. Offensively however, most of the people who believe they're op simply calculate a theoretical damage output (4 shots in Rapid Fire-range given FRFSRF), but seldom think about how difficult it is to even get the Conscripts within 12" of something, let alone an entire unit or two.
They are very good, but I remain unconvined that they are far too OP. Some small nerfs (ability to recieve orders is one) and I think they're going to be fine.
Take 50 men conscript. Give them "Catachan" keyword Get comissar and platoon commander with them. Get a searchlight (from FW), and make sure that harker sits close to them. Now enjoy your unit, that can fire down every threat with 100 BS4 reroll one shots. Or add aegis defence line, add priest and Straken, and place all this treasure pack near your artillery and anihilate every deep striking/charging idiot with 200 BS4+ reroll 1 shots or 150(actually 250, after you get an order Fix bayonets!) BS5+ hits in melee.
Future War Cultist wrote: So, if they changed the <regiment> keyword to Militarum Auxilia to prevent them from receiving orders, they'd be a little fairer?
EricDominus wrote: I've been asking this already in other topic, but i dont get enough replies. Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?
Or take special weapons squard, set them, let's say, 3 inces away from the enemy, use order, throw 6d6 frag grenades, shot 6 lasgun shots (since the wargear options says "take option" not replace lasgun) and after that go full Killer Queen (is that a JoJo reference?!) and smash the ones who survived with 3 breacher charges?
Also fire every frag grenade and every lasgun at different target, 8th edition is cool.
You know, unless it specifically excludes grenades and charges, then I think you're right. I might need to get me that book!
jaxor1983 wrote:Does anyone know of a good proxy for a Sabre Defense Searchlight? I had no idea Forgewold stopped making them (probably because they were utterly useless until right now).
I was thinking of using the metal frame from one of those small candles [about 1.5" around], and using balsa wood to set up the platform it sits on. I think with a bit of creative tinkering, I could get a little LED in there and a vaguely parabolic reflector, and have a little light-up searchlight.
I'm not sure where'd the batteries go, though.
Also, I am mildly disappointed. There are rules for barbed wire in the book, but it's not an upgrade for fortifications anymore, and there's no way to buy it on its own. Which means that my enemy has to consent to playing on a table that has a no-man's land filled with craters, barbed wire, and Czech hedgehogs. And nobody in their right mind is going to consent to playing against the guard on a table where all charge rolls count as halved :(
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.
It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).
Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.
Have you noticed how the searchlights can only benefit units in the same regiment as the Sabre, and that neither Militarum Tempestus nor Elysian Drop Troops can take Sabres?
So looking really closely at this, IG flyers can't benefit from Sabre Searchlights but for a different reason. You can include Flyers and just have them as Aeronautica rather than Elysian as their main keyword, allied in via the Imperium keyword. However, in the Regiment keyword section, there is no mention that Aeronautica is in fact a 'Regiment' type, and as the flyers don't have <Regiment>, there is no way to key the Sabres to Regiment: Aeronautica.
I'm glad I looked at that closely, kind of spoils my Sabre+Vulture plan. I guess they work by buffing a nice big Conscript squad or AA units (so even better at their role or no penalty to hit ground targets)
They are very good, but I remain unconvined that they are far too OP. Some small nerfs (ability to recieve orders is one) and I think they're going to be fine.
Yeah, let's remove from guard units the coolest feature of their faction. This will teach them to not be space marines.
Also, Conscripts are OP only according to mathammer. people assume too much from on block of infantry and how well it can position.
They are very good, but I remain unconvined that they are far too OP. Some small nerfs (ability to recieve orders is one) and I think they're going to be fine.
Yeah, let's remove from guard units the coolest feature of their faction. This will teach them to not be space marines.
Also, Conscripts are OP only according to mathammer. people assume too much from on block of infantry and how well it can position.
I have not seen proof of anything so far, but if they are OP they would need to balanced in some way. If not orders, what else? Increase their cost, making them equal to Guardsmen but worse in every way apart from unit size? Further reduce their stats to WS/BS/Sv 6+? Removing their ability to benefit from Commisars? Having a rule stating you cannot bring more Conscripts than normal Guardsmen? I think a removal of orders may be fluffiest, as they are untrained and therefore not able to follow orders to the same degree. However, if they are not overpowered or just slightly overpowered, nothing needs to be done.
The problem as I see it is not their ability to deal damage, but their ability to weather almost anything you throw at it. If the Conscripts hold an objective, which is far from impossible, you more or less cannot shift them at all. in that situation, you might have to get close enough to be in rapid fire range of quite a lot of lasguns in order to dislodge them. In general, I think something might need to done to address hordes in an edition where anti-horde weapons are more effective against heavy infantry than light.
Remove their ability to follow orders.
Make them elites, forcing you to take regular infantry or scions as a tax.
Make them have to take a battleshock test every turn regardless of casualties.
Make them 4pts each like regular infantry, who still have to spend points on upgrades.
Remove their ability to follow orders.
Make them elites, forcing you to take regular infantry or scions as a tax.
Make them have to take a battleshock test every turn regardless of casualties.
Make them 4pts each like regular infantry, who still have to spend points on upgrades.
How about you just make them take orders on a Leadership test, like they did in 5th edition?
At LD4, they'd basically never pass an order unsupported. A Commissar would bring them up to a 50/50 pass rate. That would be enough, don't you think?
I think people are generally overreacting to the amusing mathhammer they can generate though. Once the meta shakes out, I think we'll find that they're not OP, just a strong pick.
Remove their ability to follow orders.
Make them elites, forcing you to take regular infantry or scions as a tax.
Make them have to take a battleshock test every turn regardless of casualties.
Make them 4pts each like regular infantry, who still have to spend points on upgrades.
That's way too harsh.
Heck making them elites is ridiculous in its own right, they're poorly trained CONSCRIPTS. They don't belong in the elites slot.
Battleshock every turn no matter what? How do you even calculate that when they take more casualties.
The points increase is the only one that makes sense, as it represents the fact that while they lack the ability to do damage (and they do, anyone thinking conscripts can reliably kill things other than infantry is insane) they make an excellent utility unit to screen charges and hold ground.
Although honestly the main nerf, if they even need one, would be removing orders. Also, perhaps commissars remove d6 conscripts instead of just one, or something like that. Or you know, bring back platoons, which kept them balanced in 7th.
That being said, people saying conscripts are OP often quote insane numbers. I know Ive said they're pretty good, but that's nothing compared to some people claiming with a straight face we will see armies numbering 600-700 strong deleting everything on the table while somehow managing to corral 50 conscripts into perfect 200 shot FRFSRF volleys.
Realistically the biggest army you will ever see on a table will be 200 or so. Any more isn't really feasible for tournament play, and anything else is casual enough you can just decline the game, like you would a guy in 7th running invisible star or something.
Right. Unless your opponent sets it up for you, there's no way you're going to get 50 conscripts to FRFSRF. Anyway that other thread got closed, let's not invite that argument here?
So now that 8th has dropped, and we've all gotten a chance to look through the indexes, I was looking at my collection and wondering what to look into getting next for my brave Cadians. Do you fine ladies and gents of Dakka have any suggestions?
I have:
5 Infantry Squads (with mixed loadouts, but I can reasonably proxy any of the special weapons)
2 Heavy Weapons Squads (3x Lascannons and 3x Heavy Bolters)
Company Command Squad (Banner, Medic, Vox, Assorted Special Weapons)
Master of Ordinance, Fleet.
3x Company Commanders (one with Power Fist/Plasma Pistol, one with Power Sword/Laspistol, one with Chainsword/Plasma Pistol)
1 Platoon Commander (Bolt Pistol, but my Company Commanders can act as Platoon Commanders as well)
5 Scions with 2 Plasma Guns
Lord Commissar (Plasma Pistol and Power Sword)
Leman Russ Punisher (with Pask)
2 Magnetized Leman Russes
Valkyrie
2 Wyverns
I also have the Imperial Triumvirate (the one with Celestine) and some assorted Assassins.
War Kitten wrote: So now that 8th has dropped, and we've all gotten a chance to look through the indexes, I was looking at my collection and wondering what to look into getting next for my brave Cadians. Do you fine ladies and gents of Dakka have any suggestions?
I have:
5 Infantry Squads (with mixed loadouts, but I can reasonably proxy any of the special weapons)
2 Heavy Weapons Squads (3x Lascannons and 3x Heavy Bolters)
Company Command Squad (Banner, Medic, Vox, Assorted Special Weapons)
Master of Ordinance, Fleet.
3x Company Commanders (one with Power Fist/Plasma Pistol, one with Power Sword/Laspistol, one with Chainsword/Plasma Pistol)
1 Platoon Commander (Bolt Pistol, but my Company Commanders can act as Platoon Commanders as well)
5 Scions with 2 Plasma Guns
Lord Commissar (Plasma Pistol and Power Sword)
Leman Russ Punisher (with Pask)
2 Magnetized Leman Russes
Valkyrie
2 Wyverns
I also have the Imperial Triumvirate (the one with Celestine) and some assorted Assassins.
Yeah. I intend to pick up a few more Infantry squads to help fill out my list. With the drop in points for our base Infantry, and our Veterans being kicked in the groin fairly hard with the loss of doctrines I need to bulk up my list some
I have noticed now, looking at the rules for the Manticore, that it seems to be pretty dang good this edition, so that might be my next purchase (alternatively maybe some Armored Sentinels.)
A Stormlord and some Hellhounds or Banewolves are on my purchase list though, I'm a tread head at heart.
War Kitten wrote: So now that 8th has dropped, and we've all gotten a chance to look through the indexes, I was looking at my collection and wondering what to look into getting next for my brave Cadians. Do you fine ladies and gents of Dakka have any suggestions?
I have:
5 Infantry Squads (with mixed loadouts, but I can reasonably proxy any of the special weapons)
2 Heavy Weapons Squads (3x Lascannons and 3x Heavy Bolters)
Company Command Squad (Banner, Medic, Vox, Assorted Special Weapons)
Master of Ordinance, Fleet.
3x Company Commanders (one with Power Fist/Plasma Pistol, one with Power Sword/Laspistol, one with Chainsword/Plasma Pistol)
1 Platoon Commander (Bolt Pistol, but my Company Commanders can act as Platoon Commanders as well)
5 Scions with 2 Plasma Guns
Lord Commissar (Plasma Pistol and Power Sword)
Leman Russ Punisher (with Pask)
2 Magnetized Leman Russes
Valkyrie
2 Wyverns
I also have the Imperial Triumvirate (the one with Celestine) and some assorted Assassins.
I've only played one round of 8th so far, but from that one data point I learned that shoving 4 Bullgryn into a Chimera and ramming it into something can be fun. A points sink, but between them you have 22 wounds over 5 models, and with flamers on the Chimera you don't need to worry too much about losing ballistic skill. Note: fun in this case does not necessarily mean competitive, I'd need more than one match (in which my opponent somehow rolled about 1/2 of her dice as ones) to actually tell you if that is true or not.
I do love me some sentinels, so I would always support someone's choice to use them. When I get a steady job I'll definitely look in to getting a detachment of them to ally in to my imperial armies.
Aenarian wrote: The problem as I see it is not their ability to deal damage, but their ability to weather almost anything you throw at it. If the Conscripts hold an objective, which is far from impossible, you more or less cannot shift them at all. in that situation, you might have to get close enough to be in rapid fire range of quite a lot of lasguns in order to dislodge them. In general, I think something might need to done to address hordes in an edition where anti-horde weapons are more effective against heavy infantry than light.
Yup. Funny how people use "you don't get them all to 12", their damage output sucks" as arqument they are not OP when they aren't taken to cause damage. They could cause 0 damage entire game(which they won't do) and still have fulfilled their intended job 100%.
They aren't taken there to kill things. Other stuff are taken for that. But funny that unit doesn't have to be super killy to be broken for points.
Really now? If you consider a T3 with 5+ armor to be too much for 3 points even without doing damage, what would you say about a T3 with a 4+ invulnerable for 2 points? It won't do any damage outside of one use of Smite, but I do know where you can get one of those. They're troops too.
ross-128 wrote: Really now? If you consider a T3 with 5+ armor to be too much for 3 points even without doing damage, what would you say about a T3 with a 4+ invulnerable for 2 points? It won't do any damage outside of one use of Smite, but I do know where you can get one of those. They're troops too.
I think they might be problematic as well. Time will tell, and I could definitely be wrong. Happens quite often.
ross-128 wrote: Really now? If you consider a T3 with 5+ armor to be too much for 3 points even without doing damage, what would you say about a T3 with a 4+ invulnerable for 2 points? It won't do any damage outside of one use of Smite, but I do know where you can get one of those. They're troops too.
Have I said those aren't problem somewhere? Only saving grace there might be if they don't have good LD buff so they are actually clearable by battleshock. Havent' paid attention to them though as they won't be seen here(for one: We have mostly Imperium&orks. For second the daemons we have has 0 of those and likely wont' be many models of those for a long time unless we expand daemons for HH).
Aenarian wrote: The problem as I see it is not their ability to deal damage, but their ability to weather almost anything you throw at it. If the Conscripts hold an objective, which is far from impossible, you more or less cannot shift them at all. in that situation, you might have to get close enough to be in rapid fire range of quite a lot of lasguns in order to dislodge them. In general, I think something might need to done to address hordes in an edition where anti-horde weapons are more effective against heavy infantry than light.
Yup. Funny how people use "you don't get them all to 12", their damage output sucks" as arqument they are not OP when they aren't taken to cause damage. They could cause 0 damage entire game(which they won't do) and still have fulfilled their intended job 100%.
They aren't taken there to kill things. Other stuff are taken for that. But funny that unit doesn't have to be super killy to be broken for points.
"Boo hoo, the Guard might actually have something good provided the players are willing to paint a few hundred models"
Go and make your own thread to cry about whatever it is you think is not ri-oh wait, you did. And it got shut down.
So I got my first game in today with my Guard, and here are my thoughts.
I brought:
Company Commander- Plasma Pistol and Power Fist
Primaris Psyker- Stave and Pistol
Infantry Squad (x3)- Plasma Gun and Lascannon
Infantry Squad (x2)- Plasma Gun
Heavy Weapons Squad- Heavy Bolters
Vindicaire Assassin
Eversor Assassin
Chimera (x4)- Heavy Flamer and Multi-Laser
Leman Russ (x2)- Battle Cannon and Hull-Mounted Lascannon, HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher
All in all I'm relatively pleased with how we are in this new edition. My Company Commander didn't do much of anything (my opponent rolled exceptionally well with some Scout Snipers and insta-gibbed him essentially). But my Heavy Weapons Squads were managing to put down a few Marines every turn (very quickly making back their meager points cost). Infantry Squads didn't do much of note besides killing a few Marines from various squads every turn, but I'm still pretty happy with them. Chimeras with heavy flamers are great, d6 automatic hits at strength 5 give even Marines pause. Eversor blended a squad of Devastators and Librarian, and the Vindicaire murdered his Captain with an exceptionally lucky shot (plinking off his last 3 wounds in 1 shot). I don't know how to feel about the Leman Russ though. I never rolled above a 2 for their number of shots, so I can't attest much to their effectiveness (my opponent rolled so many 6's to save his Marines whenever my Russes shot at them).
The Leman Russ Punisher is still pretty decent, 29 Strength 5 shots is a pretty scary prospect even for Space Marines. Primaris Psyker managed to blow up a massive chunk of a Company Veterans squad, and Gaze of the Emperor'd my opponent's Warlord down to 3 wounds.
Remove their ability to follow orders.
Make them elites, forcing you to take regular infantry or scions as a tax.
Make them have to take a battleshock test every turn regardless of casualties.
Make them 4pts each like regular infantry, who still have to spend points on upgrades.
Depends on how you look at it. It's a quick and nice way to set up a battle without having to calculate all the points values, while still retaining some form of balance. If I walked into a store and met a friendly chap I'd like to a quick game with, power levels would allow us to quickly throw together some form of armies.
But if you want to play with even more balanced armies (in theory) or have greater control, it's probably not for you.
Yeah, playing a balanced game where both players start off on equal footing is lame and for weirdos that kiss girls.
Remove their ability to follow orders.
Make them elites, forcing you to take regular infantry or scions as a tax.
Make them have to take a battleshock test every turn regardless of casualties.
Make them 4pts each like regular infantry, who still have to spend points on upgrades.
Talking about knee-jerk reactions
Like I said before, I didn't mean apply all of those at once. Just one, maybe two, at most. And that's if they're even needed. I don't think conscripts will prove to be as OP as they seem.
Aenarian wrote: The problem as I see it is not their ability to deal damage, but their ability to weather almost anything you throw at it. If the Conscripts hold an objective, which is far from impossible, you more or less cannot shift them at all. in that situation, you might have to get close enough to be in rapid fire range of quite a lot of lasguns in order to dislodge them. In general, I think something might need to done to address hordes in an edition where anti-horde weapons are more effective against heavy infantry than light.
Yup. Funny how people use "you don't get them all to 12", their damage output sucks" as arqument they are not OP when they aren't taken to cause damage. They could cause 0 damage entire game(which they won't do) and still have fulfilled their intended job 100%.
They aren't taken there to kill things. Other stuff are taken for that. But funny that unit doesn't have to be super killy to be broken for points.
"Boo hoo, the Guard might actually have something good provided the players are willing to paint a few hundred models"
Go and make your own thread to cry about whatever it is you think is not ri-oh wait, you did. And it got shut down.
ROFLMAO! What thread you are claiming I made that got shut down?
And you just revelead you don't care about balance. You just want YOUR army be broken all stomper.
Lucky I don't have to play against you. I have no interest playing against WAAC guys who aren't interested in balanced game.
Whelp, lesson learned, if you're going to charge conscripts into something, remember to actually move the commissar up enough to keep them in morale distance. Lost 13 of the boogers in a single morale phase thanks to such a dumb little mistake.
Gunzhard wrote: I'm finally getting around to building my 1994 Leman Russ tank, I wonder how different it is from the current version?
It has a metal tank commander blister in the box too, pretty neat.
Not that different. Painted, I think I would have a hard time telling them apart at a glance. It was a little less pleasant to build though if I remember it correctly.
Gunzhard wrote: I'm finally getting around to building my 1994 Leman Russ tank, I wonder how different it is from the current version?
It has a metal tank commander blister in the box too, pretty neat.
Major difference between the old and new Leman Russ is the track assemblies.
The old ones you placed road wheels and tracks on.
The new ones, you just place tracks.
daedalus wrote: Ouch. I did something similar with a power blob. Spent command points to pass the test.
Wouldn't have mattered, I had lost over 17 guys. Even if I autopassed, I was still losing 13 models.
That's a fair point. One of the "nice" things about "MSU" horde guard (for some values of S) is that there's only so many models a given infantry squad can lose.
Gunzhard wrote: I'm finally getting around to building my 1994 Leman Russ tank, I wonder how different it is from the current version?
It has a metal tank commander blister in the box too, pretty neat.
The main difference are the tracks. On the older type you had to stick in bogie wheels to put the tracks on whilst the newer kit just has plugs. There's small differences in the turrret too (newer one is more detailed with all the weapon options).
I wish I still had mine. It would be cool to mix them up. There were several different models of Sherman tanks so I don't why the Russ couldn't be any different.
Gunzhard wrote: I'm finally getting around to building my 1994 Leman Russ tank, I wonder how different it is from the current version?
It has a metal tank commander blister in the box too, pretty neat.
The main difference are the tracks. On the older type you had to stick in bogie wheels to put the tracks on whilst the newer kit just has plugs. There's small differences in the turrret too (newer one is more detailed with all the weapon options).
The older tank also has a targeter (?) box on the side of the turret and an indentation for some running lights in the lower front hull.
I'm perfectly fine with the command squad nerf. To me, it's idiotic that there would be like 4 to 5 command squads running around the battlefield, and only 1 commander.
Will the year-end compendium have a fresh points and rules list for everyone or am I going to have to download half a dozen randomly released FAQs and go through the book making notes?
Colonel Cross wrote: You guys see the new FAQs? You can only take 1 command squad, scion or otherwise, per their respective commander.
They also nerfed the crap out of the Void Shield Generator :(
Wouldn't say nerfed the crap out of the VSG but instead brought a needed balance change; a 24" 4++ bubble is kind of broken at 190pts. And you had to damage it by half to even reduce that save unless you got under the bubble (and who wouldn't properly screen the gun line hiding beneath the bubble to massively complicate such an effort?)
Still, one small bit of silver lining for the VSG - the ruling also removed the damage table, so it's a 5++ through all 18 of its wounds.
I've been asking this already in other topic, but i dont get enough replies. Can somebody explain me Elisyan's order "Move and Fire!"? 
English is not my main language, and i am a bit new to Warhammer 40000, so i am a bit confused. An Order itself says: " Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn". Does it mean, that i can pick my elisyan veteran squad (or platoon), creep them into 6 inches away from the enemy, then order them this order and throw 10 krak grenades, since now i count my grenade profile as Assault?
Or take special weapons squard, set them, let's say, 3 inces away from the enemy, use order, throw 6d6 frag grenades, shot 6 lasgun shots (since the wargear options says "take option" not replace lasgun) and after that go full Killer Queen (is that a JoJo reference?!) and smash the ones who survived with 3 breacher charges?
