InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
On the down side, be prepared to go second a lot. It may be worth using conscripts to bubble wrap your army, combined with plenty of reserves to keep your killy units safe. Mass scion drops, valkyrie reinforcements and fast tanks are all viable turn 1 reserves. Non-random reserves are a huge strategic change.
Arbitrator wrote: So, to bring back an old debate. Are we thinking Snipers in Special Weapon Squads or Ratlings?
Ratlings! I have no maths to back it up, but they are better BS, can infiltrate, scoot and shoot, and have +1 cover.
A sniper sws is 42 for 3 snipers, 3 lasguns. You can get 6 Ratlings for that.
If you have a free elite slot, I agree.
Otherwise IG squads that are sitting on objectives can grab them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
If you want carapace, grab Scions.
Scions are now 9 points before gear. That's cheaper than old vets with carapace.
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
On the down side, be prepared to go second a lot. It may be worth using conscripts to bubble wrap your army, combined with plenty of reserves to keep your killy units safe. Mass scion drops, valkyrie reinforcements and fast tanks are all viable turn 1 reserves. Non-random reserves are a huge strategic change.
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
On the down side, be prepared to go second a lot. It may be worth using conscripts to bubble wrap your army, combined with plenty of reserves to keep your killy units safe. Mass scion drops, valkyrie reinforcements and fast tanks are all viable turn 1 reserves. Non-random reserves are a huge strategic change.
Why would the Guard player go second often?
In all of the eternal war and maelstrom missions, player alternate deploying units. The player who finishes deploying first gets to choose to go first or second. You can still try to seize with cp reroll if you want.
Error found,
Demolisher Cannons are listed as D6 vs units of 5 or more models in all unit entries where they're mentioned, but D6 vs units of 10 or more models in the armory listing.
Just trying to find a good way to mitigate these new blast mechanics (for the record I hate them) which hurt poor bs units more.
As far as Russes go, if I want to run just one, I would pay the 35 points for the commander every time, just consider it the veteran upgrade that we've always wanted and we've got the HQ slot space now. If I was using a normal russ, I think I would always pair it with a tank commander so the order can give it's turret at least something closer to a higher bs. I think a "number of shots" roll would be the best one to use a stratagem on.
Idk maybe in this setup you can load up the normal russ with flamers (make up for the poor bs) and send it in first as a screen for the tank commander.
I also see Pask as a must have if you can use Cadians.
Ignispacium wrote: Error found,
Demolisher Cannons are listed as D6 vs units of 5 or more models in all unit entries where they're mentioned, but D6 vs units of 10 or more models in the armory listing.
Yeah, I saw that earlier and the most likely answer seems to be that the 10 is a typo since the 5 appears more than once.
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
This is exactly my thinking too. Throw in Creed for even more. Having 20 CPs when you have so many D6, 2D6, 4D6 shot weapons combined with re-rolls from orders seems to me like it will be quite powerful.
Chris521 wrote: Just trying to find a good way to mitigate these new blast mechanics (for the record I hate them) which hurt poor bs units more.
As far as Russes go, if I want to run just one, I would pay the 35 points for the commander every time, just consider it the veteran upgrade that we've always wanted and we've got the HQ slot space now. If I was using a normal russ, I think I would always pair it with a tank commander so the order can give it's turret at least something closer to a higher bs. I think a "number of shots" roll would be the best one to use a stratagem on.
Idk maybe in this setup you can load up the normal russ with flamers (make up for the poor bs) and send it in first as a screen for the tank commander.
I also see Pask as a must have if you can use Cadians.
Remember all those Command points we will be sitting on? If you don't like the result of your roll for the blast just re-roll it. I agree Pask is going to be a monster in a Vanq.
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
This is exactly my thinking too. Throw in Creed for even more. Having 20 CPs when you have so many D6, 2D6, 4D6 shot weapons combined with re-rolls from orders seems to me like it will be quite powerful.
Chris521 wrote: Just trying to find a good way to mitigate these new blast mechanics (for the record I hate them) which hurt poor bs units more.
As far as Russes go, if I want to run just one, I would pay the 35 points for the commander every time, just consider it the veteran upgrade that we've always wanted and we've got the HQ slot space now. If I was using a normal russ, I think I would always pair it with a tank commander so the order can give it's turret at least something closer to a higher bs. I think a "number of shots" roll would be the best one to use a stratagem on.
Idk maybe in this setup you can load up the normal russ with flamers (make up for the poor bs) and send it in first as a screen for the tank commander.
I also see Pask as a must have if you can use Cadians.
Remember all those Command points we will be sitting on? If you don't like the result of your roll for the blast just re-roll it. I agree Pask is going to be a monster in a Vanq.
But, you can only use the re-roll once per phase..
So, just noodling around with some points. The following is a complete Battalion (+3CPs) and just a hair over 400 points
2 Company Commanders
1 Infantry Squad Ac/Plas/vox
2 5-man Scion Squads, 2 GL ea
3 Hvy Weapon Teams all AC
That;s 10 Auto Cannons, with enough orders to reroll every squad every turn plus a couple of annoying DS Scion Squads. Or add about 15 points and just roll out two more AC/Plas Squads instead of the Scions. Whatever props your tent.
The same silliness but with HB is around 330.
BTW I'm liking the Grenade Launcher, range 24" can keep the scions out of trouble, it's decent a S6 -1AP, but most importantly does D3 wounds. 4 of those at BS 3+ is kinda hot.
Formerly Wu wrote: Thanks, but I actually meant battlefield role. Elite or HQ?
Sound like he got some nice support buffs.
Elite.
Has anyone thought of a use for command squads? They just seem really bad. No ablative wounds and most of the special equipment is pointless. Maybe as transported suicide units? I would just rather have more characters and squads to be honest.
You can arm 3 squads to the teeth with plasma and throw them in a single valkyrie/chimera.
12 plasma guns with literally 0 chaff models thrown in. Get them close to something, overcharge every single one, and completely murder a target nearby. I'm not really sure why we even have special weapon squads when these guys are superior in almost every way and share a slot.
Realistically you'd want two with a couple of platoon commanders thrown in to let them reroll the ones, but honestly if they're firing at something that needs 12 overcharged plasma guns they're probably not coming out of that alive anyways. Plus with plasmas being only 7pts a gun you'd be insane to not take as much as humanly possible. I mean seriously, Plasma is incredibly good now, guard has an autopass order that mitigates it's only drawback, and you're pretty much going to always overcharge it because you're a guard player and you're used to them killing themselves anyways.
Ignispacium wrote: I'm a little confused by the wording on Command Squads.
Can I take 4x special weapons or is the vox caster and/or pistol+chainsword mandatory before taking 3x?
The Tempestus Command squad has similar wording, but also suggests you can equip the entire squad with special weapons.
There's a long list of things phrased "veteran may", then "Any Other Veteran" for the SW. So any veteran you don't upgrade or exchange in another way can take a SW.
Right so after having some time to read over it (granted it will take a few days for us to grasp exactly what all this means compared to other factions and playing with the rules) I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Guard in 8th yet. There are a lot of things I like, some things I don't like, and a couple of things I really don't like, but every army is being shaken up quite a bit so time will tell if they're really issues at all
The good
Spoiler:
+Plasma is god for Imperial Guard now. Seriously there is no sane reason to not take it in most squads, it's just that handy. We have an autopass order on characters that cost a whopping 20-30 pts to reroll ones, you should be abusing the heck out of plasma wherever you can. Flamers cost the same, Meltas cost more, Grenade Launchers are only 2pts cheaper for much less damage, and snipers should be ratlings if you can help it. Now, this isn't saying these weapons don't have a place in a list, it's just you need to build a unit with them in mind. Whereas if I'm sitting there thinking "I need this to be a good generalist unit" the answer should just be plasma. As far as I'm concerned, plasma became more powerful, got cheaper, and essentially kills guardsmen just as much as it used to, except now you have the option to ignore the gets hot roll if you're just lazily chucking shots into something and don't need to risk the gunner. In general we are going to have so many special weapons it's going to make what we fought with in pre 8th edition look like sticks and rocks, we just have so many options for cramming more special weapons into a list now.
+Autocannons are a very consistent weapon in a world of D3/D6, much like plasma. I expect many Guard players will make heavy use of them to ensure at least some predictability in their shooting phases. Missile Launchers and Lascannons don't seem bad, but you'll be much more vulnerable to variation with their performance and will be at the mercy of the dice gods.
+Medics are very good if you can find room for them. They'll be able to bring back characters and special/heavy weapons on a 4+, which will be very handy for just 10pts. This means you'll be able to bring back officers, commissars, masters of ordnance, etc, if you're smart with positioning and keep the medics alive. I don't think you'll get to use it much, after the first time you pull it off I think your opponent will learn to kill your medics, but it's a good trick to keep in mind.
+We are going to be the masters of command points. I'm honestly concerned that we'll even be able to spend all the points we get in a single game. Even the largest formations are essentially just what we took as a single troops choice last edition
+Harker looks like a not terrible investment for a Catachan army. I know most people don't care but I have a Catachan platoon and a Harker model so I thought it was kind of neat that he buffs shooting for all friendly Catachans nearby.
+Commissars are great now, even the basic ones are very good at their job now and with them all having an aura of effect and helping to mitigate battleshock, I'm glad I have so many in my collection. I honestly think the average guard army will have so many character models it simply won't be possible to kill all of them for an army that has a normal amount of snipers, and if they do have enough snipers to kill our characters off by turn 3 odds are they're just going to die to the rest of the army at that point. We'll see if I'm right on that though
+I like the new transport stats, but they're very literally battle taxis now. That said Tauroxes offer a surprising amount of firepower on a fast package and Chimeras can bring a lot of guardsmen to key points quickly. I think an armored counterattack force will serve most guard players well, if only to grab objectives or shore up a hole in the line, but I'll need to test it. At the very least 3 command squads armed to the teeth with plasma sounds too deliciously evil to not try at least once.
The Neutral
Spoiler:
==== (neutral) Good bye first turn, it was nice knowing you. There is no way any other army in the game is going to come close to us in the amount of units they're bringing. Maybe we'll have a way to be cute with deploying in vehicles to mitigate it, but I doubt it. On the other hand, we can cheese the heck out of almost any army in the deployment phase thanks to alternating deployment. We will have so many cheap, small units that we can just stall until the opponent has played his hand and deployed his most important units, then react in kind. Especially if you bring stormtroopers and the like that you can chuck into reserve
The Bad
Spoiler:
-Leman Russes remain to be seen how useful they are. I feel many of our weapons should be more effective than they are but perhaps our orders and numbers will balance it out. I'm not holding my breath though and expect them to be something that gets tweaked into the next codex. Many vehicles seem a bit underwhelming at first glance honestly but I know the Russes stood out the most for me, as with most players I looked forward to trying out a proper IG tank company at some point. At least we can split our squadrons after deployment now.
-No marbo, chenkov, Al'Raheem, Bastogne, etc. Although honestly if they do come back they'll come back with the proper IG codex, I'm not surprised to not see them here.
-as expected with going into 8th, many units lost options they formally had, especially vets. No camo gear or carapace really sucks, even though technically we can bring 3 special weapons, a heavy flamer, and a heavy weapon if I'm reading the entry right. Of course, this is mainly due to the codexes we have now being placeholders, we'll probably see this come back with the main book
------------COMBINED INFANTRY SQUADS ARE GONE - I don't even have to explain that one honestly. I'm sure I can work around it, but it's clearly meant to make us work for our orders a bit more and bring more officers. Hope it comes back in 8th, or even just a "combined squad" troop choice where you just buy them that way.
Our biggest hurdle will be figuring out how to get used to MSU infantry again and the fact that we can no longer shoot out of transports. We have ways to mitigate this (conscripts especially as well as just about everyone else dealing with the transport change too) but there will absolutely be some growing pains. I expect many IG players will have a rough time learning how to adapt to the new edition. We will definitely take some finesse to play this edition, mainly in that proper splitting of fire, using the right orders at the right time, proper screening of important units, reliance on characters, and abusing the crap out of as many command abilities as we can will all be huge. For example, I know one mission takes place in the dark where everyone essentially has stealth. There's a command ability that lets you mark a target with flares to dispel it for 2cps. We can pop that every turn and still have points to spare in even a 1000pts list.
I think I can squeeze two of the battalions I listed above, one AC and one HB, plus Creed into 1000 pts. That's what, 11 CP to play with and 12 orders a round? Yeah, AM should be fine for CPs.
It really depend on what other strategems there will be. So far, we can use 5 (assuming 5 turns) for rerolls and I doubt we will need to autopass leadership check every turn if we have enough commissars. Though extra command points could be used to save a few points on commissars.
Plus seizing the initiative and other pre-game shenanigans. You could use some there too. The list is solid for rerolls TH though, even w/o CPs...
It's essentially 15 or 20 points per infantry squad to get them rerolls TH every turn (either CC or PC). There's enough HQ/E slots to essentially spam that until your hand cramps too. One battalion has enough slots to fit 2 CCs and 6 PCs - that's 10 orders a turn (and 180 pts, but hey).
Right so after having some time to read over it (granted it will take a few days for us to grasp exactly what all this means compared to other factions and playing with the rules) I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Guard in 8th yet. There are a lot of things I like, some things I don't like, and a couple of things I really don't like, but every army is being shaken up quite a bit so time will tell if they're really issues at all
The good
[spoiler]
+Plasma is god for Imperial Guard now. Seriously there is no sane reason to not take it in most squads, it's just that handy. We have an autopass order on characters that cost a whopping 20-30 pts to reroll ones, you should be abusing the heck out of plasma wherever you can. Flamers cost the same, Meltas cost more, Grenade Launchers are only 2pts cheaper for much less damage, and snipers should be ratlings if you can help it. Now, this isn't saying these weapons don't have a place in a list, it's just you need to build a unit with them in mind. Whereas if I'm sitting there thinking "I need this to be a good generalist unit" the answer should just be plasma. As far as I'm concerned, plasma became more powerful, got cheaper, and essentially kills guardsmen just as much as it used to, except now you have the option to ignore the gets hot roll if you're just lazily chucking shots into something and don't need to risk the gunner. In general we are going to have so many special weapons it's going to make what we fought with in pre 8th edition look like sticks and rocks, we just have so many options for cramming more special weapons into a list now.
+Autocannons are a very consistent weapon in a world of D3/D6, much like plasma. I expect many Guard players will make heavy use of them to ensure at least some predictability in their shooting phases. Missile Launchers and Lascannons don't seem bad, but you'll be much more vulnerable to variation with their performance and will be at the mercy of the dice gods.
+Medics are very good if you can find room for them. They'll be able to bring back characters and special/heavy weapons on a 4+, which will be very handy for just 10pts. This means you'll be able to bring back officers, commissars, masters of ordnance, etc, if you're smart with positioning and keep the medics alive. I don't think you'll get to use it much, after the first time you pull it off I think your opponent will learn to kill your medics, but it's a good trick to keep in mind.
+We are going to be the masters of command points. I'm honestly concerned that we'll even be able to spend all the points we get in a single game. Even the largest formations are essentially just what we took as a single troops choice last edition
+Harker looks like a not terrible investment for a Catachan army. I know most people don't care but I have a Catachan platoon and a Harker model so I thought it was kind of neat that he buffs shooting for all friendly Catachans nearby.
+Commissars are great now, even the basic ones are very good at their job now and with them all having an aura of effect and helping to mitigate battleshock, I'm glad I have so many in my collection. I honestly think the average guard army will have so many character models it simply won't be possible to kill all of them for an army that has a normal amount of snipers, and if they do have enough snipers to kill our characters off by turn 3 odds are they're just going to die to the rest of the army at that point. We'll see if I'm right on that though
+I like the new transport stats, but they're very literally battle taxis now. That said Tauroxes offer a surprising amount of firepower on a fast package and Chimeras can bring a lot of guardsmen to key points quickly. I think an armored counterattack force will serve most guard players well, if only to grab objectives or shore up a hole in the line, but I'll need to test it. At the very least 3 command squads armed to the teeth with plasma sounds too deliciously evil to not try at least once.
The Neutral
Spoiler:
==== (neutral) Good bye first turn, it was nice knowing you. There is no way any other army in the game is going to come close to us in the amount of units they're bringing. Maybe we'll have a way to be cute with deploying in vehicles to mitigate it, but I doubt it. On the other hand, we can cheese the heck out of almost any army in the deployment phase thanks to alternating deployment. We will have so many cheap, small units that we can just stall until the opponent has played his hand and deployed his most important units, then react in kind. Especially if you bring stormtroopers and the like that you can chuck into reserve
The Bad
Spoiler:
-Leman Russes remain to be seen how useful they are. I feel many of our weapons should be more effective than they are but perhaps our orders and numbers will balance it out. I'm not holding my breath though and expect them to be something that gets tweaked into the next codex. Many vehicles seem a bit underwhelming at first glance honestly but I know the Russes stood out the most for me, as with most players I looked forward to trying out a proper IG tank company at some point. At least we can split our squadrons after deployment now.
-No marbo, chenkov, Al'Raheem, Bastogne, etc. Although honestly if they do come back they'll come back with the proper IG codex, I'm not surprised to not see them here.
-as expected with going into 8th, many units lost options they formally had, especially vets. No camo gear or carapace really sucks, even though technically we can bring 3 special weapons, a heavy flamer, and a heavy weapon if I'm reading the entry right. Of course, this is mainly due to the codexes we have now being placeholders, we'll probably see this come back with the main book
------------COMBINED INFANTRY SQUADS ARE GONE - I don't even have to explain that one honestly. I'm sure I can work around it, but it's clearly meant to make us work for our orders a bit more and bring more officers. Hope it comes back in 8th, or even just a "combined squad" troop choice where you just buy them that way.
Our biggest hurdle will be figuring out how to get used to MSU infantry again and the fact that we can no longer shoot out of transports. We have ways to mitigate this (conscripts especially as well as just about everyone else dealing with the transport change too) but there will absolutely be some growing pains. I expect many IG players will have a rough time learning how to adapt to the new edition. We will definitely take some finesse to play this edition, mainly in that proper splitting of fire, using the right orders at the right time, proper screening of important units, reliance on characters, and abusing the crap out of as many command abilities as we can will all be huge. For example, I know one mission takes place in the dark where everyone essentially has stealth. There's a command ability that lets you mark a target with flares to dispel it for 2cps. We can pop that every turn and still have points to spare in even a 1000pts list. [/spoiler]
Well said!
An excellent summary of my own hopes and fears for the coming edition. Guard players need to make the most out of these CPs, we are going to be rolling in them even in small matches. The only thing I have trouble with is filling the HQ slots, and a 30 point Company Commander sorts that out.
I'm a fan of the focus on Blob conscripts rather than guardsmen, but that's a fluff thing rather than a rules mechanic that I objected to. While gun lines are going to dread those deep-strike-assaults (which is what I imagine most CC armies will be reserving their re-rolls for), falling back and folding ranks of fire is now an option where it wasn't before.
I'm excited to get back into the hobby with 8th edition.
In all seriousness though. 8th edition is all about infantry. If you want to know what to buy. Buy infantry. Then buy more infantry. Not only have their points decreased in many cases, but their damage output has increased significantly. I can tell you with 100% certainty right now any guard list competing in serious tournaments in 8th edition will have 200+ infantry minimum. While heavy weapons teams did not get special rules, their point costs went down substantially. Any serious IG player will be rocking 9+ of these this edition.
Armor is out, infantry is in. How do I know? Math. Any serious competitive list cannot rely on RNG. Even if you rolled 6 on the D6 shots every single time, you still have to pass the ballistic skill check, reducing your damage output by half on average. Then you have to consider the changes to cover etc putting your average to around 1-2 wounds. Then you need to consider we are finding that many armies we have seen thus far will be assaulting your gunline turn 1 & gauranteed turn 2. Your long ranged artillery & tanks do little good when the enemy is already ontop of you.
Already shown through the math. Battle cannon is only better on lower saves(4+,5+,and 6+) and lucky rolls. Vanquisher is better against heavy targets.
Both have a chance to fire 1 shot and miss. But if the vanquisher hits with a single shot that shot is more likely to do more damage than the battle cannon hitting with 2 shots. The battle cannon can, if the dice all go in your favor put 3x damage in a single turn. It is worth a try if you have no other anti-big'uns guns left or have already killed all the med-heavy infantry.
3.5 shots in average, hit on 4+, wound on 4+(let's say T8 2+ save target like land raider), target saves on 4+, d3 damage=0.875 damage through
Vanquisher shoots 1 hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, target saves on 5+ and does in average 4.5 wounds per damage=0.75 damage through.
Yeah both can shoot 1 if russ rolls badly but then again vanquisher can roll 1 damage as well. You don't factor in lucky "woo 18 damage" but averages.
Already shown through the math. Battle cannon is only better on lower saves(4+,5+,and 6+) and lucky rolls. Vanquisher is better against heavy targets.
Both have a chance to fire 1 shot and miss. But if the vanquisher hits with a single shot that shot is more likely to do more damage than the battle cannon hitting with 2 shots. The battle cannon can, if the dice all go in your favor put 3x damage in a single turn. It is worth a try if you have no other anti-big'uns guns left or have already killed all the med-heavy infantry.
3.5 shots in average, hit on 4+, wound on 4+(let's say T8 2+ save target like land raider), target saves on 4+, d3 damage=0.875 damage through
Vanquisher shoots 1 hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, target saves on 5+ and does in average 4.5 wounds per damage=0.75 damage through.
Yeah both can shoot 1 if russ rolls badly but then again vanquisher can roll 1 damage as well. You don't factor in lucky "woo 18 damage" but averages.
Except your not calculating averages. You need to do an actual statistical analysis and go with 1 and 3 models to make sure there isnt a gap created by a peritale distribution.
If ypu do you will find Vanquisher is better at killing big things. On top of that you need to calculate the probability of what you will roll for damage on average. If i was a betting man I would put my money on 6 damage.. And i would get paid almost 30% of the time.
rabidguineapig wrote: It's nice that we can take lone infantry squads to get the Brigade Detachment bonuses, considering it requires 6 troops. That would have cost a fortune under the old format.
Exactly. Those saying "but you could just take a cheap platoon and split the squads" seem to think that 130pts x 6 to field a Brigade would somehow be reasonable. Of course when you try and force 8th edition units into your 7th edition paradigm you end up with all sorts of questionable reasoning.
Of course there's nothing that would prevent having ability to take brigades and/or blop...
I was shocked when I totalled up the points costs for my army, in 7th it is around 2,250-2,300... now it isn't even 2,000 points. I have to find a way to add an additional 76 points if I want to get to 2k again... plasma pistols for everything haha. And I will be painting some of my Tallarn's shoulder pads white with a cross on them in each of my command squads just to spend points and take medics.
Kind of off topic, but I used two Inquisitors in my army, how is it going to work in 8th? The detachment says they have to be from the same faction, and I assume Imperial is a faction. What are going to be the penalties of taking Coteaz and a generic Inquisitor?
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
With the new rules on blast templates, you don't need to make conga lines.
Here are 3 squads that can easily be placed within 6" of a commissar. You can fit one more behind the commissar. I would put a heavy weapons team behind the commissar as you might lose range quickly otherwise.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I was shocked when I totalled up the points costs for my army, in 7th it is around 2,250-2,300... now it isn't even 2,000 points. I have to find a way to add an additional 76 points if I want to get to 2k again... plasma pistols for everything haha. And I will be painting some of my Tallarn's shoulder pads white with a cross on them in each of my command squads just to spend points and take medics.
Kind of off topic, but I used two Inquisitors in my army, how is it going to work in 8th? The detachment says they have to be from the same faction, and I assume Imperial is a faction. What are going to be the penalties of taking Coteaz and a generic Inquisitor?
Each Faction will have specific Stragems you will be limited to the Imperial one.
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
With the new rules on blast templates, you don't need to make conga lines.
Here are 3 squads that can easily be placed within 6" of a commissar. You can fit one more behind the commissar. I would put a heavy weapons team behind the commissar as you might lose range quickly otherwise.
With spaces between models maximised. Conga lines have other reasons than just avoiding templates.
Your going to want 6 " between the front unit and the charcter. Same with the flanking squads and the rear squad it will allow between 8" and 12 " between the units plunty of space.
Also, would anybody be annoyed if I represented my Tallarn having Medi-Packs by painting a shoulder pad white with a red cross on it? There isn't much customization with the models (a slight downside of having some kick butt classic single pose models I guess).
NH Gunsmith wrote: Also, would anybody be annoyed if I represented my Tallarn having Medi-Packs by painting a shoulder pad white with a red cross on it? There isn't much customization with the models (a slight downside of having some kick butt classic single pose models I guess).
I would say as long as it stands out sufficantly its fine but best to ask around your local shop to see what they think. Those are the people you need to get approval from.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Also, would anybody be annoyed if I represented my Tallarn having Medi-Packs by painting a shoulder pad white with a red cross on it? There isn't much customization with the models (a slight downside of having some kick butt classic single pose models I guess).
I would say as long as it stands out sufficantly its fine but best to ask around your local shop to see what they think. Those are the people you need to get approval from.
Very true, everybody else's shoulder pads are going to be a camo green. The will be the only infantry models with white and red on them.
Edit. I will make sure to point them to my opponents and see what they think. I don't think it will be an issue though, saw a guy today playing with a unit that was just bases. And another guy using proxies.
Very true, everybody else's shoulder pads are going to be a camo green. The will be the only infantry models with white and red on them.
An absolute might insist you model on the medi-pack to truly represent WYSIWYG, but I can't imagine anyone actually having a problem with it.
I'm really digging the new medic rules, for a moment I was excited to field Command Squad's of just medics supporting my mass infantry. Then I could lay into my opponent and charge them with breaching the Geneva Conventions whenever they targeted them.
Made quick list that is similar in style to my 7th ed lists and generally what I like to play. Turned out 2 company commanders, tank commander, command squad+2 platoon commanders, 9 squads of infantry(autocannons, flamers, lascannons, plasma guns), missile HWT, sentinel, melta+infenro hellhounds, manticore and 2 leman russ. Tad short of 1800 pts and brigade.
Think I would need to buy lot more infantry if I were to play 8th ed(rather than HH). I'm running short seeing infantry seems to be way for IG in 8th ed.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I was shocked when I totalled up the points costs for my army, in 7th it is around 2,250-2,300... now it isn't even 2,000 points. I have to find a way to add an additional 76 points if I want to get to 2k again... plasma pistols for everything haha. And I will be painting some of my Tallarn's shoulder pads white with a cross on them in each of my command squads just to spend points and take medics.
Kind of off topic, but I used two Inquisitors in my army, how is it going to work in 8th? The detachment says they have to be from the same faction, and I assume Imperial is a faction. What are going to be the penalties of taking Coteaz and a generic Inquisitor?
Yeah it's kind of funny. Everyone else is freaking about their armies costing more points and I'm sitting here thinking "how the heck am I going to use all these free points now?"
I really hope there's not a limit to detachments, otherwise I'm going to be taking a stupid amount of conscripts
tneva82 wrote: In matched game there is max number of detachments depending on point size
Hmm, I was reading about detachment restrictions in the match play section of the rulebook & it seemed to suggest that its entirely up to the 2 players, or tournament organizers. Otherwise if you go by the detachment section, it suggests that you can take any number of detachments.
Guard will have an easy time fulfilling these requirements. Hopefully not too many restrictions will be placed on detachments in matched play, otherwise they are hindering one of our strengths. I can easily see guard players having 18+ command points in an 1800pt game.
Chris521 wrote: It really depend on what other strategems there will be. So far, we can use 5 (assuming 5 turns) for rerolls and I doubt we will need to autopass leadership check every turn if we have enough commissars. Though extra command points could be used to save a few points on commissars.
You can't reuse strategems in the same phase, not turn. So you can use 6 rerolls a turn (Movement, psychic, shooting, charge, fight, morale). The one people might miss is you can reroll a charge and also in combat, as the old assault phase is now 2 phases.
tneva82 wrote: In matched game there is max number of detachments depending on point size
Hmm, I was reading about detachment restrictions in the match play section of the rulebook & it seemed to suggest that its entirely up to the 2 players, or tournament organizers. Otherwise if you go by the detachment section, it suggests that you can take any number of detachments.
Guard will have an easy time fulfilling these requirements. Hopefully not too many restrictions will be placed on detachments in matched play, otherwise they are hindering one of our strengths. I can easily see guard players having 18+ command points in an 1800pt game.
Ah right it's indeed suggesting.
Though 3 bridages that's valid according to the suggestion should be enough even for IG That'd minimum 9 HQ, 9 elite, 18 troops, 9 FA and 9 HS. More than that seems tough even for IG!
I'm thinking what led GW to remove veteran doctrines, specially that regimental doctrines and doctrines in general are very desired among IG players. Having some specialisation was always handy. Maybe to promote usage of Tempestus? Why removing forward sentries then? It sems to me that they are just trying to create homogenous fighting force out of the Guard.
Hawky wrote: I'm thinking what led GW to remove veteran doctrines, specially that regimental doctrines and doctrines in general are very desired among IG players. Having some specialisation was always handy. Maybe to promote usage of Tempestus? Why removing forward sentries then? It sems to me that they are just trying to create homogenous fighting force out of the Guard.
Tempestus kit plus 3rd Party models for veterans, my tinfoil hat suggests me.
Hawky wrote: I'm thinking about rules, not models.
Rules are there to sell models and there is a pricy scion box, but not a IG veteran box... from GW.
Think about all those 3rd party that sell carapace. Gone.
SO I haven't made it through this whole thread but Vendettas have gone then? I can see why they wouldn't want 6 LCs flying about but it's a bit surprising and I haven't seen much tears about it.
RandyMcStab wrote: SO I haven't made it through this whole thread but Vendettas have gone then? I can see why they wouldn't want 6 LCs flying about but it's a bit surprising and I haven't seen much tears about it.
They aren't in the index, that's for sure. It sort of makes sense, since GW said that all units that have models would get rules, and techinically you can't buy the vendetta. It's an upgrade from forge world. Maybe we will get it later or in a FW supplement.
I'm really dissapointed that you only get 1 missile though, and not two. It would be semi-good anti-tank flyer with two missiles and a lascannon. The dakka version with heavy bolters, missiles pods and the multilaser seems fantastic however!
tneva82 wrote: It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.
I am sure we will see them come back along with the Vulture. Forgeworld cannot be that stupid.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I am sure we will see them come back along with the Vulture. Forgeworld cannot be that stupid.
Let's hope that the vulture keeps its strafing run rule. Even with 40 shots, 5+ to hit would be annoying. That would be around 13 hits, compared to the 18 you used to get. You are going to have to pay for 2 punishers too.
I actually wonder if the "one missile" is a typo, because the book actually does say "helstrike missiles", plural, without specifying how many. And of course, the fact that you replace those missiles with two missile pods.
Though I guess the weapon statline does refer to the weapon as "hellstrike missiles" instead of "hellstrike missile", which does make it seem intentional. Of course, this is why as a rule of thumb I would avoid ever naming a weapon in plural tense: because you really want to be clear when there's only one of something, and "one hellstrike missiles" would sound funny. So I guess overall I'll have to go with "it's intentional, one missile" until/unless they release a FAQ stating otherwise.
So I guess if any of you decide to write your own wargame later, keep that in mind: always name things in singular tense even if they are in batteries, it makes writing the rest of the rules easier. For example, if it seems strange to call it "one hellstrike missile" when the physical model has, say, four missiles on it, call it something like "one hellstrike missile battery" or "one hellstrike missile rack". Your editors will thank you.
Been trying to come up with effective lists with Russes but I just cannot decide which of the turret options to go with, they all just seem so....terrible.
What turrets do you guys think are even worth taking?
FunJohn wrote: I'm really dissapointed that you only get 1 missile though, and not two.
At least they aren't one use anymore.
You actually get 5-7 missiles, equal to the number of turns the game is played.
I'll take that over. one shot weapons.
Hoyt wrote: Been trying to come up with effective lists with Russes but I just cannot decide which of the turret options to go with, they all just seem so....terrible.
What turrets do you guys think are even worth taking?
This is how I would run LRBT.
LRBT Spam
This group of 5 LRBTs costs 1000 points on the nose.
Pask w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB Tank Commander w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
Pask gives "Gunners Kill on Sight!" to 2 LRBT every turn. The other commander gives the order to the final LRBT.
Every round they, on average HIT with this..
19.375 PC shots : STR 7, -3 AP 1 Damage. 13.125 of those can be safely overcharged to target vehicles or other large creatures
7.75 HB hits : STR 5, -1 AP 1 damage
5.166 SB hits : STR 4, AP -, 1 damage. Double if targets are within 12".
That's an insane amount of damage. It's picking up entire enemy units each turn.
That was a great read. Thanks for taking the time to post.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Plasma is the bee's knees. Even plasma pistols at 5 points a pop are sweet.
With transports, units are locked in combat with them. This means you can 'tank shock' a squad of tactical marines with your Chimera and keep them locked up in combat.
If you want to go first, just throw all your stuff in transports. Plopping 4 chimeras and 4 russ's onto the table is pretty quick.
The mathhammer shows that LRBT are --really-- good when combined with tank commander orders. I ran some numbers with Pask and another commander giving 3 other russ's orders every turn. The amount of firepower they produce is crazy.
It will take a while to get used to MSU squads. For old guard players that will be different. This is a list I threw together for food guard. I think that has a lot of potential, and will look really cool on the table.
Hmm, considering the executioner is 2 points cheaper than a battle cannon, I guess it can pretty much entirely replace the battle cannon since they basically have the same stats now (and as long as you have a TC to wrangle them you can be generous with overcharging to deal with multi-wound targets).
Edit: And yeah a Russ should pretty much always be run as a TC now. None of its weapons ignore BS anymore, so having BS3+ and re-rolling 1s is pretty vital no matter the loadout. We get plenty of HQ slots now anyway, use the HS slots on HWTs and artillery.
ross-128 wrote: Hmm, considering the executioner is 2 points cheaper than a battle cannon, I guess it can pretty much entirely replace the battle cannon since they basically have the same stats now (and as long as you have a TC to wrangle them you can be generous with overcharging to deal with multi-wound targets).
Even without over charging, each russ is throwing out 7.5 plamsa shots per turn on average.
That's crazy. Once you have a tank commander and pask who are hitting on a 2+ and 3+, and giving 3 other LRBT the ability to reroll 1's.....
Hoyt wrote: Been trying to come up with effective lists with Russes but I just cannot decide which of the turret options to go with, they all just seem so....terrible.
What turrets do you guys think are even worth taking?
This is how I would run LRBT.
LRBT Spam
This group of 5 LRBTs costs 1000 points on the nose.
Pask w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB Tank Commander w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
Pask gives "Gunners Kill on Sight!" to 2 LRBT every turn. The other commander gives the order to the final LRBT.
Every round they, on average HIT with this..
19.375 PC shots : STR 7, -3 AP 1 Damage. 13.125 of those can be safely overcharged to target vehicles or other large creatures
7.75 HB hits : STR 5, -1 AP 1 damage
5.166 SB hits : STR 4, AP -, 1 damage. Double if targets are within 12".
That's an insane amount of damage. It's picking up entire enemy units each turn.
Thats pretty amazing firepower, didn't even notice that Pask can give 2 orders a turn, seems that the humble old Battlecannon is effectively useless now.
Those 5 russes also fit neatly into a Spearhead detachment as well.
5 LRs is also 60 toughness 8 3+ wounds, which seems pretty tough but I'll have to see how long they acually last with all the multi damage weapons on the tabletop now
I think the cause for the russ variants being so lame is potentially a design oversight. Think about it, if damage would carry over to other models, then they would be at least servicable. The rules were probably made first as a "baseline heavy tank" then as they continued writing they realized that carrying over damage needed to be scrapped and forgot about poor ole IG. Either way, I am not butthurt since I have 3000 pts of Infantry muahahaha
Would you be able to test this list and let me know how it plays for you?
I can get pretty close to it. I am missing some lascannon teams and would have to throw some old mordian HBs onto bases. Unfortunately most of my special weapons of old are meltaguns. I could definitely get pretty close if you will accept some autocannons as substitutes. If I buy 4 packs of 60mm bases I can probably bits up all the heavy weapons. a quick critique on the list: Change the Special weap teams to command squads. +1 BS and I am fairly certain the same points gets you 4 PGs (just no ablative wounds)
slargy wrote: I can get pretty close to it. I am missing some lascannon teams and would have to throw some old mordian HBs onto bases. Unfortunately most of my special weapons of old are meltaguns. I could definitely get pretty close if you will accept some autocannons as substitutes. If I buy 4 packs of 60mm bases I can probably bits up all the heavy weapons. a quick critique on the list: Change the Special weap teams to command squads. +1 BS and I am fairly certain the same points gets you 4 PGs (just no ablative wounds)
If you could try a few games and let me know how it works, I would greatly appreciate it.
slargy wrote: I think the cause for the russ variants being so lame is potentially a design oversight. Think about it, if damage would carry over to other models, then they would be at least servicable. The rules were probably made first as a "baseline heavy tank" then as they continued writing they realized that carrying over damage needed to be scrapped and forgot about poor ole IG. Either way, I am not butthurt since I have 3000 pts of Infantry muahahaha
I think it's probably GW going way overboard implementing several nerfs at once when one would do. 8th edition is clearly supposed to be more melee friendly, more "not getting tabled" friendly, more "units don't get one shot" friendly. They accomplished this by bumping nearly every unit's survivability up. Now transports can't get one shot, everyone gets an armor save, and melee was buffed so it hits the enemy lines 1st or 2nd turn pretty much guaranteed. This is already a big nerf to guard since guard is meant to be the tabling "mow em down before they reach your lines" type of faction. Then they went overboard going down the list of every Russ variant and making their main guns hot garbage.. maybe forgetting that the buffed survivability and speed of everything already puts guard on the back foot. They're not taking baby steps. They're strapping the baby to a rocket and launching it to the moon. Even more evident when you look at the deletion of the vendetta. "Oh gak.. this thing is some powerful long range firepower! Good lord, it might even kill a transport in one volley!... Fix it? feth that. DELETE IT."
I'll be running Special Weapons Squads in my Chimeras instead of Vets. With a Company and/or Platoon Commander in tow they still pack a decent enough punch. But most of all I just can't say no to 5pt demolition charges.
Has anyone pointed out that Knight Commander Pask can give orders to two Tank Commanders?
That would then be a BS 2+ guy with two buddies that are BS 3+, re-rolling 1's to hit.
I've been running the numbers to see how much of a difference the re roll stratagem and the orders help out the Russ. The first picture is what a Battle Cannon can do to a single Target with Toughness 8 and the 3+ save. The second is against a target with Toughness 5,6,or 7 with a 4+save.. The Stratagem was used to Re roll the number of shots roll if the original was 1 or 2. The code does the simulation 1 million times.
The data table shows the average value at each step of the rolling process, as well as the percent chances to cause 4 wound, 8 wounds, and 12 wounds. The twelve wound one is basically no chance for the Battle cannon but will get a little bit of use for when I post my demolisher cannon runs
The first is against Toughness 6,7,8,9 3+ targets, the second, against T5 ,4+ targets. This time the stratagem re-rolled the number of shot roll on a 1.
Remember, all of these results are against a single target. My code does not currently handle multiple multi wound targets
I'm gonna be playing with the numbers for tank commanders and Pask ( they won't get the orders) as well as the possibility of using the stratagem on the demolisher's damage roll instead of the number of hits roll.
Embarked units can't interact or be interacted with in any way, unless specifically stated otherwise. So you can shoot because of the Stormlord's specific "Extended Firing Deck" rule, but give/get no orders or auras.
That is true. You'd pretty much just want to put two HWS and two Command Squads with special weapons in there for exactly 20 models (because the HWTs count as two each, that's 12 and 8), leave the Officers outside so that they can issue orders to other people who are on foot.
Do 6 missile launchers and 8 grenade launchers if you want the Stormlord to be a generic anti-everything terror, or you could give the command squads flamers to compliment the twin-flamer-sponsons if you're going for the Demolition Derby/Ramming Speed strategy. 16d6 automatic hits!
Or you could do five Command Squads with special weapons.
Embarked units can't interact or be interacted with in any way, unless specifically stated otherwise. So you can shoot because of the Stormlord's specific "Extended Firing Deck" rule, but give/get no orders or auras.
Well, that means less command squads to buy!
Though I'm not sure. Honestly I'm debating between too many options.
jaxor1983 wrote: Has anyone pointed out that Knight Commander Pask can give orders to two Tank Commanders?
That would then be a BS 2+ guy with two buddies that are BS 3+, re-rolling 1's to hit.
Just noticed that. Maybe you can run a 5 tank blob with pask protected in the middle. He is ordering the commanders who are ordering the normal russes. Throw in a re roll stratagem plus any that we may (hopefully) get in the codex and just maybe we can salvage our tanks. Also if Forge world want to throw us a bone, all the better.
ross-128 wrote: That is true. You'd pretty much just want to put two HWS and two Command Squads with special weapons in there for exactly 20 models (because the HWTs count as two each, that's 12 and 8), leave the Officers outside so that they can issue orders to other people who are on foot.
Do 6 missile launchers and 8 grenade launchers if you want the Stormlord to be a generic anti-everything terror, or you could give the command squads flamers to compliment the twin-flamer-sponsons if you're going for the Demolition Derby/Ramming Speed strategy. 16d6 automatic hits!
Or you could do five Command Squads with special weapons.
Man, say whatever you want but this kind of things is making 8th edition beautiful to me. Also, Bullgryns with the melee during shooting order look a brutal meelee unit to me.
They count as two each for transport capacity, but that doesn't affect how many models can shoot out. So you could put 20 heavy weapon teams inside and fire them all. However, you could lose them if it is destroyed.
They count as two each for transport capacity, but that doesn't affect how many models can shoot out. So you could put 20 heavy weapon teams inside and fire them all. However, you could lose them if it is destroyed.
Oh that's right, and the Stormlord can transport 40 models, 20 of which can shoot. So you can do four HWSs and two Command Squads, that's 32 transported models (under 40, check), and 20 shooting models.
tneva82 wrote: It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.
Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.
tneva82 wrote: It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.
Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there a mistake in the points value of a HWT? Is it really 4 points per mode? So a squad of 3 HWTs are only 12 points before weapons? Or is that likely a typo?
Shadelkan wrote: Is there a mistake in the points value of a HWT? Is it really 4 points per mode? So a squad of 3 HWTs are only 12 points before weapons? Or is that likely a typo?
It could be a typo, as 2 men should be 8 points. If it is printed like that at release though, what are you going to do? Let's just say I'm going to be using them but not rush out and buy 20 mortar squads.
tneva82 wrote: It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.
Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.
Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.
portugus wrote: Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.
portugus wrote: Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.
Is.. is this real? If so, that's infuriating.
They stole all of the decent ammo. I guess it is revenge for all of those MCs that we one shotted with beast-hunter shells.
RandyMcStab wrote: Sorry what are Beast Hunter shells? Seen a few references, a FW thing?
They were a FW upgrade for the Armoured Battle Group Vanquisher tank commanders or commissar tanks. 15pts, str8 ap2 small blast, instant death. You could also fit a vanquisher with a co-axial stubber, which gave the main gun a reroll to hit if any stubber shot hit a target. Coupled with commanders/commissars being bs4, it made vanquishers an actually good unit. Even when the 7th edition codex came out and lowered the points costs for russes (ABG was on the previous point costs) they were still the best way to run vanquishers, much better than the codex version.
RandyMcStab wrote: Sorry what are Beast Hunter shells? Seen a few references, a FW thing?
Armored battle group from Forge World allowed your command and commissar (both had BS 4) Vanquishers to take best hunter shells which gave them instant death. Additionally, they could also have coaxial heavy stubbers, which if I'm interpreting the rules correctly, gave the vanquisher cannon twin linked. I would imagine that if that rule remained, it would remain a re roll instead of firing two shots.
But a bs3+ vanquisher cannon that re rolls 1 and does D6 mortal wounds could be pretty nice.
slargy wrote: I think the cause for the russ variants being so lame is potentially a design oversight. Think about it, if damage would carry over to other models, then they would be at least servicable. The rules were probably made first as a "baseline heavy tank" then as they continued writing they realized that carrying over damage needed to be scrapped and forgot about poor ole IG. Either way, I am not butthurt since I have 3000 pts of Infantry muahahaha
I think it's probably GW going way overboard implementing several nerfs at once when one would do. 8th edition is clearly supposed to be more melee friendly, more "not getting tabled" friendly, more "units don't get one shot" friendly. They accomplished this by bumping nearly every unit's survivability up. Now transports can't get one shot, everyone gets an armor save, and melee was buffed so it hits the enemy lines 1st or 2nd turn pretty much guaranteed. This is already a big nerf to guard since guard is meant to be the tabling "mow em down before they reach your lines" type of faction. Then they went overboard going down the list of every Russ variant and making their main guns hot garbage.. maybe forgetting that the buffed survivability and speed of everything already puts guard on the back foot. They're not taking baby steps. They're strapping the baby to a rocket and launching it to the moon. Even more evident when you look at the deletion of the vendetta. "Oh gak.. this thing is some powerful long range firepower! Good lord, it might even kill a transport in one volley!... Fix it? feth that. DELETE IT."
The Vendetta was removed because GW doesn't sell the model, it was removed back in 7TH edition when death from the skies released.
Chris521 wrote: which if I'm interpreting the rules correctly, gave the vanquisher cannon twin linked. I would imagine that if that rule remained, it would remain a re roll instead of firing two shots.
The co-axial stubber had sort of a "markerlight". You used the stubber shooting it before the main weapon; If the co-axial stubber hit, the main could reroll as if twinned.
Very true, everybody else's shoulder pads are going to be a camo green. The will be the only infantry models with white and red on them.
An absolute might insist you model on the medi-pack to truly represent WYSIWYG, but I can't imagine anyone actually having a problem with it.
I'm really digging the new medic rules, for a moment I was excited to field Command Squad's of just medics supporting my mass infantry. Then I could lay into my opponent and charge them with breaching the Geneva Conventions whenever they targeted them.
Yeah, I might end up making a few green stuff pouches/backpack to stick on the backs of my four medics, at least that way I could call that the "Medi-Pack". It would probably be a good preventative against "that guy", I didn't see anywhere that it says the model with it loses their lasgun though, so at least that makes it a bit easier. Might also green stuff a cross on each of their shoulder pads to hold people over until they are painted.
I couldn't believe how good they are though, them four medics can help replace Battleshock casualties.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Yeah, I might end up making a few green stuff pouches/backpack to stick on the backs of my four medics, at least that way I could call that the "Medi-Pack". It would probably be a good preventative against "that guy", I didn't see anywhere that it says the model with it loses their lasgun though, so at least that makes it a bit easier. Might also green stuff a cross on each of their shoulder pads to hold people over until they are painted.
You would alter your models to encourage "that guy" to play against you? I would probably alter my models to not play against them. I mean, it's not like you are calling a plasma a melta. That is acceptable to moan about.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Yeah, I might end up making a few green stuff pouches/backpack to stick on the backs of my four medics, at least that way I could call that the "Medi-Pack". It would probably be a good preventative against "that guy", I didn't see anywhere that it says the model with it loses their lasgun though, so at least that makes it a bit easier. Might also green stuff a cross on each of their shoulder pads to hold people over until they are painted.
You would alter your models to encourage "that guy" to play against you? I would probably alter my models to not play against them. I mean, it's not like you are calling a plasma a melta. That is acceptable to moan about.
A bit of painting would be fine for most people.
Yeah, but if I ever play in any tournaments this edition it can't hurt to be safe.
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
And it being "well" populated doesn't matter. You can make an army of rough riders as the main line. You can make an all artillery army. You're just making a fallacy and claiming that your choices have been diminished. Sure, there's only regular guardsmen in troops, but who cares when you can bring the other stuff in a different cad without breaking a sweat?
master of ordinance wrote: Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
Actually scions are troops as well.
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Lord Kragan wrote: And it being "well" populated doesn't matter. You can make an army of rough riders as the main line. You can make an all artillery army. You're just making a fallacy and claiming that your choices have been diminished. Sure, there's only regular guardsmen in troops, but who cares when you can bring the other stuff in a different cad without breaking a sweat?
But if you have 2 identical units but one is troop and one is elite having it on troops is better. DUCY?
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
Uhhh... I got some bad news about the platoon buddy...
On the other hand, stormtroopers are troops now, and conscript squads can be taken individually, that's a thing.
In unrelated news, troops in and of itself really doesn't seem to be that big of a deal other than competition in slots since from what I understand claiming an objective goes off of how many models you have near it, so vets can still do the same job. It still sucks they've lost doctrines and the like but pretty much every army lost options that they're used to having in their codex.
This is basically the 3rd edition reboot all over again, of course everyone is missing options. We *should* see a lot of this stuff come back when we get our proper codex released. These books are meant to be placeholders (and more than likely, beta test) until we get proper codexes so honestly I expected us to be missing more than this.
Why? Aren't Veteran soldiers the definition of elite? I'm bummed about GW taking away all the cool doctrines, maybe we shall see a return in the later codex. However, there's no punishment for Veterans being transferred to the elite slot. You can still field an entire army of IG with Elites, no problem.
Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered)
True, there is a lot of competition for it. But certainly not enough to be an issue for an army fielding 2 detachments of any sort.
section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices.
There is no functional difference between an Elite or a Troop when holding objectives. This isn't 6E where Troops trumped others on objectives. The only area where an all Vet IG army will suffer is on Command Points, and really that makes sense.
master of ordinance wrote: Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
Actually scions are troops as well.
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Lord Kragan wrote: And it being "well" populated doesn't matter. You can make an army of rough riders as the main line. You can make an all artillery army. You're just making a fallacy and claiming that your choices have been diminished. Sure, there's only regular guardsmen in troops, but who cares when you can bring the other stuff in a different cad without breaking a sweat?
But if you have 2 identical units but one is troop and one is elite having it on troops is better. DUCY?
Yet they aren't identically. last time I checked you couldn't tote 3 special weapons with a guardsman squad, nor hit on 3s base.
Lord Kragan wrote: Yet they aren't identically. last time I checked you couldn't tote 3 special weapons with a guardsman squad, nor hit on 3s base.
All the better then? Point generally being you BENEFIT from having unit as troop rather than elite. Ideally you want every unit as troop rather than say elite. Well okay IG might benefit from some cheap choices elsewhere but generally troop is better than elite.
In other words if veterans were moved to troop without any other changes they would be _better_ than now.
So point being it's not irrelevant that they are elite because there's detachment that allows taking elite as tax rather than troop as it would be even better if they were troop.
Kanluwen wrote: So real quick, not sure if it was mentioned or not...
But how about that Strength 16 Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword?
Looks really nice. +1 to hit and reroll wounds against TITANIC foes. I guess it really depends on how often you see those. If hordes become popular then this thing loses some of its appeal. Point thing at a knight or something though, and it should delete it with decent rolling. I would save some command points to reroll the number of shots though.
Kanluwen wrote: So real quick, not sure if it was mentioned or not...
But how about that Strength 16 Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword?
Looks really nice. +1 to hit and reroll wounds against TITANIC foes. I guess it really depends on how often you see those. If hordes become popular then this thing loses some of its appeal. Point thing at a knight or something though, and it should delete it with decent rolling. I would save some command points to reroll the number of shots though.
Wording on the Shadowsword Targeters makes it apply to the Adamantium Tracks in CC as well.
tneva82 wrote: It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.
Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire. GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
Uhhh... I got some bad news about the platoon buddy...
On the other hand, stormtroopers are troops now, and conscript squads can be taken individually, that's a thing.
.
Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops? How does that make any sense?
The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?
portugus wrote: Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.
Jesus H Christ.
"b-b-but 8th is going to be perfect! y-you naysayers are just haters! nu-gw will pay attention to the rules!"
Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?
It was probably done as a concession to Militarum Tempestus players, since their codex is now gone entirely, so I 'can' see their logic in it.
The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?
Platoons are gone despite earlier saying they weren't.
HWS' are Heavy Support.
SWS' are Elites.
Platoon Commanders are Elites, whilst there's just a Company Command Squad now.
tneva82 wrote: It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.
Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.
Twin linked devourers aren't in the Hive Tyrant box.
Lol, by that logic: Sergeants should only have las pistol and chainswords, Veterans shouldn't exist at all, shotguns shouldn't exist at all, etc.
I converted some leftover Lascannons from Guard HWTs into the guns for my Vendetta, back in the day. Magnetized them and everything.
I also converted some shotguns gor my Veterans just by cutting up a Lasgun carefully, didn't even have to add extra details, it just worked out.
I also had to convert all of my Rough Riders from a mix of old Empire, Bretonnian, and Imperial Guard bits, and they look pretty good next to my plastic converted Ogryns from Fantasy Ogres.
Under arc of sight not all weapons could be brought to bear at certain ranges due to weapon placement(and some t-l weapons where separated by the hull creating a host of problems).
Under the new rules, before I noticed the lack of arc, I thought target per weapon was awesome for those models.
Also, lack of arc mitigates flyer's limited range of motion. While you are forced to travel straight foreward and can only turn 90°; you can still shoot all your guns at a target back and to the left(which is realistically dynamic; a fighter-jet doesn't just fly towards a location, shoot, the fly somewhere else. It shoots as it flies)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Arbitrator: plations are not gone. They now net ys 3 cps per.
While you may want to cry about how the single slot got broken up between different battlefield roles; you may want to wipe the tears off your blouse, put on your big-boy pants and use your think-meat to see what we actually get.
Battalion detachment: commander as hq, 3 infantry squads as troops, hws as hs, sws as elites,add in a command squad as elites if you choose. Oh, and you can still take a blob of conscripts as troops.
I am going to say it again: each platoon is now +3 command points to our army.
[While you may want to cry about how the single slot got broken up between different battlefield roles; you may want to wipe the tears off your blouse, put on your big-boy pants and use your think-meat to see what we actually get.
I was staying facts. They're gone in the rules, breaking them up into Detachments same as everybody else is still removing them. Oh, and there's Kill Points and Battle Shock that will be effected by them not being blobed and those Commissars only have 6" to stretch their shooting arm.
I love you GW shills who are so sensitive you have to get passive aggressive at the slightest presumed slight against your precious game.
One major problem with the loss of platoons: there is still a kill point mission. With the addition of 1 model character "units" and multiple 10 man squads, that mission is going to be hell for IG.
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Kommissar Kel wrote: While you may want to cry about how the single slot got broken up between different battlefield roles; you may want to wipe the tears off your blouse, put on your big-boy pants and use your think-meat to see what we actually get.
Arbitrator wrote: I love you GW shills who are so sensitive you have to get passive aggressive at the slightest presumed slight against their precious game.
This rubbish is pointless. Discussing the rules is far more interesting that weird attacks against what you imagine the other person is thinking.
portugus wrote: Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.
Jesus H Christ.
"b-b-but 8th is going to be perfect! y-you naysayers are just haters! nu-gw will pay attention to the rules!"
Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?
It was probably done as a concession to Militarum Tempestus players, since their codex is now gone entirely, so I 'can' see their logic in it.
The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?
Platoons are gone despite earlier saying they weren't.
HWS' are Heavy Support.
SWS' are Elites.
Platoon Commanders are Elites, whilst there's just a Company Command Squad now.
So in other words, the only thing left in the Troops slots are Infantry Squads and Storm Troopers? Everything else has been forced into already densely populated and in some cases (Heavy Support) extremely competitive slots that they (in all honesty) have no right being anywhere near?
Wonderful GW, you just managed to kill the Guard.
In my book, breaking the platoons into MSUs does count as removing them.
The loss of platoons is a two-sided coin in this edition though, due to the ability to take multiple detachments and the fact that doing so gives you command points. Yes, we can't cram 200 models into a single slot anymore. Yes, if we want a 50-man blob it'll have to be BS2 with no specials or heavies.
But we can fill up detachments and rack up command points more easily than any other army, and that's a pretty good consolation prize. Also, we can take conscripts with no platoon tax now. As impractical as it might be, in a 2000 point game we can field 500 conscripts and still have enough points for enough Officers and Commissars to keep them in line. That's something I'd like to see at least once for sheer entertainment value.
Would also make an amusing benchmark for more practical lists. "But can it beat 500 Conscripts?"
Edit:
I do think Veterans should be moved to troops and Platoon commanders should be HQ though. Those slots are just under-populated, moving those over would make the organization chart a little less lop-sided and being able to fill an HQ slot for 20 points would be nice.
I'm putting that under "quality of life request" rather than "dead on arrival" though.
The only issue with killpoint missions is the loss of the option to blob. But then we are just going to have to use tactics now aren't we?
But, hey, that is the risk we guard players take.
As far as the single-model character units: every army has those now; and we have some options to keep them alive(command squads with medi-packs and nork)
What really sucks now is wyrdvanes and astropaths:
The astropath can only manifest smite 1/6th of the time(only rolls 1 die when attempting smite) but cannot perils. The wyrdvane only ever roll 1 die to cast or deny, and get to a dd 1 or 2 to the roll depending on how many models are left. This means a bigger unit is only casting 3/4 of the available powers half the time, and a smaller unit 1/3. If you got visions and your unit goes below 3 models you can never cast it. Most of the time they cannot deny either. Strangely enough the unit has rule for how you handle perils, but unless something else is going to cause perils the unit will never be able to roll them(can't roll double 1 or 6 if you are only rolling 1d6)
Isen't the Astropath stupidly cheap though? And can we also only deny with 1d6? I might be wrong but I read it as he manifsted with 1d6 bout could actually deny with 2d6
Kommissar Kel wrote: The only issue with killpoint missions is the loss of the option to blob. But then we are just going to have to use tactics now aren't we?
But, hey, that is the risk we guard players take.
As far as the single-model character units: every army has those now; and we have some options to keep them alive(command squads with medi-packs and nork)
What really sucks now is wyrdvanes and astropaths:
The astropath can only manifest smite 1/6th of the time(only rolls 1 die when attempting smite) but cannot perils. The wyrdvane only ever roll 1 die to cast or deny, and get to a dd 1 or 2 to the roll depending on how many models are left. This means a bigger unit is only casting 3/4 of the available powers half the time, and a smaller unit 1/3. If you got visions and your unit goes below 3 models you can never cast it. Most of the time they cannot deny either. Strangely enough the unit has rule for how you handle perils, but unless something else is going to cause perils the unit will never be able to roll them(can't roll double 1 or 6 if you are only rolling 1d6)
Yes Astropaths are only 21 points (and can do a ignores cover thing too, though that's less good now), also Mortar HWS are only 27 points which is a laugh.
Well the Astropath only needs a 5+ to smite, which isn't that bad for the cost. A full wyrdvane squad needs 3+ to cast. You should probably not pick terrifying visions as a power, and stick to one of the other 2. 4+ isn't great but it's something I suppose. I would probably just stick to the Primaris.
What I'm curious about is how much <Regiment> is going to play a part in determining things like Detachments. In the case of stuff like Traitor Legions and Chapters I imagine it would be pretty important to make sure everything is marked as say... <Death Guard> but compared to them we have a lot of stuff that doesn't fall under <Regiment>. Storm Troopers, Commissars, Valkyries, Priests, Advisors, all our Psykers, etc. Could be that it's an intentional off-set to how easily we fill a Detachment compared to everybody else, but...
Well, in a pinch, if you need to avoid having non-regiment stuff in a detachment, you can take a separate Elites detachment with just one command squad that has all your Commissars and such in it.
AdMech has to do a similar thing if they want to bring Imperium allies but still use Canticles (their version of Orders), because AdMech can only use canticles if their detachment is 100% pure AdMech. So if they want to bring an assassin or something like that, they bring a second detachment to stick it in so it won't contaminate their primary.
All vehicle weapons can now fire through the rear corner, for example.
Yes but vehicle rotation (aside from flyers) is infinite, so why wouldnt you turn your vehicle to shoot at your target and look cool in the process.
Depends when. During movement? Fine. During shooting? No. Why?
'cause that way you gain in-game benefit by moving in a turn more than you should have? I would call shenigans on that in tournament.
Say tank is like this:
XXX
Pointing left. You then keep moving sideways full ahead. If you then on shooting phase rotate it toward enemy your front is actually closer to enemy than it was...
Also of course there's all sort of micromanagement bonus shenigans you can do by exposing only corner or something...Expect to see that in a tournaments a lot.
I'm probably going to have to re-mark them so I can prep up a tracker sheet and know which tank corresponds to which tank on the tracker sheet.
I would put a dice on top of them, increasing the number for every wound you take. That would be 2 dice max. Also, if you have 2 dice on it then you know a russ is below half wounds and has lower stats.
I'm probably going to have to re-mark them so I can prep up a tracker sheet and know which tank corresponds to which tank on the tracker sheet.
I would put a dice on top of them, increasing the number for every wound you take. That would be 2 dice max. Also, if you have 2 dice on it then you know a russ is below half wounds and has lower stats.
That's what we do now for Hull Points. But there's no convenient place to put dice on the Leman Russ because it's not big and flat, and more than once after a turn or two I've stopped, looked at it, and gone "now how many HP did this tank have remaining?"
I usually just use the tracks, wide enough for dice and flat. Have to be careful about knocking it, but you could say that about any model in the game.
master of ordinance wrote: Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.
My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".
Uhhh... I got some bad news about the platoon buddy...
On the other hand, stormtroopers are troops now, and conscript squads can be taken individually, that's a thing.
.
Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?
The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?
1. Yeah I don't get it either honestly. Our 3 troops choices are Conscripts (literally unchanged from last codex) Single Infantry squads, and Stormtroopers. I'm 100% this was just the most convenient way to roll the stormtrooper codex into the Index for GW, I highly doubt stormtroopers are staying troops for IG once we get our "real" codex. In the meantime we can abuse the heck out of them though, especially as a 10 man squad gets to bring 4 special weapons. If you ran grenadier vets, just proxy them as stormtroopers for the time being, as long as you didn't use heavy weapons they'll fulfill the same role for not much more points. Hopefully when the main codex drops this will be fixed, but we'll see.
2. The platoon is gone in that it is no longer a single troops choice that is a force org within a force org. All of our platoon options that we know and love are available in the index, they're just spread across the sections one would expect to see them. There were price drops across the board (except for conscripts which honestly don't need it)
Platoon commanders, command squads, and Special weapon squads are in the elite section
Infantry squads and Conscripts are troops choices
Heavy weapon squads are in the heavy support section.
What GW was going for from the look of it is that IG is expected to use the various formations to build our platoons again. Essentially nothing has changed at first glance. If anything, IG is basically being swamped in command points, your average platoon that you took in 7th is going to net you just as many command points as most people's armies in 8th will, and it's looking like hitting 20+ command dice for IG is going to be hilariously easy.
HOWEVER, we lost the combined squads rule, which is a huge blow. It's now making a lot more sense why our orders go off automatically and we get so many officers, because we're going to desperately need them. Infantry squads will always be deployed individually now, there is no option to combine them. This means that IG is going to be hell in killpoint missions, and all but the most elite of mech guard forces are going to be taking turn 2 most of the time.
There's also the problem that more than likely matched play will limit formations, which if we're going to be honest here, most metas will likely do. This means that infantry guard is facing a very real risk of not having enough slots (even with brigades) to deploy their army. If this happens, infantry squads will be dead in the water, and odds are you'll see most players default to conscripts and stormtroopers, or running the elite formation for a core of veteran squads. I know people are already saying "well how the heck are you going to run out of formations with guard?" but when many of our best choices in each slot cost 30-40pts KITTED OUT, slots will be at a premium, especially if you try to take allies which will eat up an entire formation.
Now I could be fretting over nothing, maybe we won't see a formation limit and it'll be fine, but mark my words, if the meta trends toward a limit on formations or Command points, IG will be hit the hardest because of it. It's pretty clear right now that being able to take advantage of that system is one of our most important strengths going into 8th edition.
Good post, mirrored my thinking pretty closely. I wonder how few points a guard double-Brigade could run.
Too bad about the Vendetta going away. But it's overshadowed the Valkyrie and been hated by opponents literally since day 1. Not really surprised.
Some of you are mentioning Astropaths, which I can't find on the in-house Guard lists at all. Ditto Wyrdvanes or whatever they're called this edition. Do we not have psyker access at all anymore without allying out? Could be I just missed it?
Heavy Stubbers seem like a steal at 4 points. Vehicles split fire now too, right? If so at 4 points I'm not sure I wouldn't put them on virtually everything.
Voxes don't take up a special weapon position anymore in grunt squads... but sadly still do in Command Squads.
Massed storm trooper plasma drop feels like it will be really nasty.
Do Command Point rerolls include misc chart rolls and such (Deathstrike launches perhaps)? Or just attack rolls, to-wound rolls, and armor saves?
Edit: Also, are other factions going to have protective rules for their characters? Because Ratling snipers seem absurdly good when fielded in large numbers. I suspect our own characters are going to be hideously vulnerable to massed sniper fire too (unless hiding in a Chimera or such). Hmm. Can orders even still be issued from a Chimera in 8th? I'm not seeing anything similar to the Command Vehicle rule.
Ivan wrote: Too bad about the Vendetta going away. But it's overshadowed the Valkyrie and been hated by opponents literally since day 1. Not really surprised.
It'll probably be in the FW rule collection available later this month.
Ivan wrote: Some of you are mentioning Astropaths, which I can't find on the in-house Guard lists at all. Ditto Wyrdvanes or whatever they're called this edition. Do we not have psyker access at all anymore without allying out? Could be I just missed it?
They are in the Adeptus Astra Telepathica list near the end of the book. It isn't really allying, as they have the Astra Militarum faction keyword. You can also get priests and enginseers from other lists because of keywords.
Ivan wrote: Heavy Stubbers seem like a steal at 4 points. Vehicles split fire now too, right? If so at 4 points I'm not sure I wouldn't put them on virtually everything.
They are decent if you don't plan to move the vehicle: they get -1 to hit when moving as they are heavy weapons. If you plan to move then the stormbolter is really nice, rapid fire 2 and only 2 points.
Ivan wrote: Do Command Point rerolls include misc chart rolls and such (Deathstrike launches perhaps)? Or just attack rolls, to-wound rolls, and armor saves?
I think they can reroll any single dice in the game once a phase. It is pretty nice for really important things, such as a shadowsword's shot number or a critical charge range. You can even use them on the seize the initiative roll.
Ivan wrote: Edit: Also, are other factions going to have protective rules for their characters? Because Ratling snipers seem absurdly good when fielded in large numbers. I suspect our own characters are going to be hideously vulnerable to massed sniper fire too (unless hiding in a Chimera or such).
I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.
Ivan wrote: Hmm. Can orders even still be issued from a Chimera in 8th? I'm not seeing anything similar to the Command Vehicle rule.
Units inside transports cannot do anything unless specifically given rules saying they can. So no orders or auras. Pretty much the only thing they can do is use firepoints.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?
Is there something I'm missing here?
Yeah it is really weird. No reason it should be there at all, not on model or ever mentioned previously. Maybe we should model the tank commander holding one? (-:
That actually made me think that tank commander's fighting totally makes sense now. You could have a pistol weapon for the tank, and have a powersword with a rule like "gets 2 attacks in addition to track attacks".
MrMoustaffa wrote: Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?
Is there something I'm missing here?
Yeah it is really weird. No reason it should be there at all, not on model or ever mentioned previously. Maybe we should model the tank commander holding one? (-:
That actually made me think that tank commander's fighting totally makes sense now. You could have a pistol weapon for the tank, and have a powersword with a rule like "gets 2 attacks in addition to track attacks".
If GW is listening, it better be called "Drive me closer"
MrMoustaffa wrote: Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?
Is there something I'm missing here?
Nope, take a took at the back of the turret. If you leave the bustle off there is a little ball mounted lasgun that can be fitted instead, kind of like the machine gun in a KV-1's turret. It is meant for close defence against infantry whom flank the tank.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?
Is there something I'm missing here?
Yeah it is really weird. No reason it should be there at all, not on model or ever mentioned previously. Maybe we should model the tank commander holding one? (-:
That actually made me think that tank commander's fighting totally makes sense now. You could have a pistol weapon for the tank, and have a powersword with a rule like "gets 2 attacks in addition to track attacks".
If GW is listening, it better be called "Drive me closer"
If they did it then it would be a minor PR victory, as it would get pretty wide attention for such a small rule. It wouldn't even be that good. You could keep the 6+ ws to account for how hard it is to fight from a turret. Or you could give the weapon +1 to hit, like a revers power fist.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?
Is there something I'm missing here?
Nope, take a took at the back of the turret. If you leave the bustle off there is a little ball mounted lasgun that can be fitted instead, kind of like the machine gun in a KV-1's turret. It is meant for close defence against infantry whom flank the tank.
So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why
"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."
So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.
Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion
I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.
Unfortunately it looks like Kell is <Cadian> not <MyRegiment>. I guess I could kitbash a Nork though. Bah. Is my understand that if you're using <MyRegiment> there is no "counts as <guy from Notmyregiment>" anymore, correct?
I really am a little concerned by potential mass sniper rifle abuse (THAT is a sentence I never thought I'd hear myself say). Our characters are NOT fancy space marine heroes running around in artificier armor. We go squish too easy. Marines can do it with sniper scouts too. Deathmarks too maybe?
Also, taurox primes are worth taking just as fire support units. A single vehicle is putting out 28 S4 shots (8 with AP -2) at BS 3+ for 96pts.
I'm halfway tempted to take a stormtrooper squad just so I can deepstriking them in and let their taurox just provide fire support in my main line, it's pretty insane. Only downside is it can only carry stormtroopers and commissars, but that's not a big deal if you're using it solely for shooting.
I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.
Unfortunately it looks like Kell is <Cadian> not <MyRegiment>. I guess I could kitbash a Nork though. Bah. Is my understand that if you're using <MyRegiment> there is no "counts as <guy from Notmyregiment>" anymore, correct?
Well don't forget that Pask is Cadian too, and I can guarantee that people are going to use him in their own regiments. People have been using named characters as their own versions for years, there really is no problem doing it against most normal opponents. The keyword system does introduce one restriction though: you can't mix the regiments up. So no taking Straken and Kell and calling them both the Tvashtan 422nd.
Really, just call them your own regiment. If anyone has a problem with that, just say "actually, these totally ARE cadian. They are wearing super rare arctic warfare camo. And they changed all their heraldry because of a bureaucratic mix up. And Kell is insisting that everyone calls him Steve for some reason".
I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.
Unfortunately it looks like Kell is <Cadian> not <MyRegiment>. I guess I could kitbash a Nork though. Bah. Is my understand that if you're using <MyRegiment> there is no "counts as <guy from Notmyregiment>" anymore, correct?
I really am a little concerned by potential mass sniper rifle abuse (THAT is a sentence I never thought I'd hear myself say). Our characters are NOT fancy space marine heroes running around in artificier armor. We go squish too easy. Marines can do it with sniper scouts too. Deathmarks too maybe?
Most of our characters have at least 3 wounds and 5+ Invulns. Not to mention a lot of them are 20-30pts. The opponent is going to be investing far more points than that to ensure just a single IG character dies per turn. Now keep in mind any sane IG player running infantry is going to have 10-20 characters or so. In order for your opponent to have enough shots to wipe out your characters with sniper fire within the first 2-3 turns, his army will be hideously gimped against your main force, even without orders and commissars. Youre also acting like there is no terrain to hide things behind, or even just hiding the model physically with ogryn or vehicles. Remember, the sniper still needs to see the target to shoot it. I wouldn't be surprised to see ogryn anchored in a line not just as a counterattack element, but as a mobile bunker for your officers to hide behind if snipers are present. Ive been hearing ogryn got buffed and if so they could do the trick. Those slabshields especially would do wonders at blocking line of sight.
That being said many armies will rely on characters in this edition so how knows, sniper spam could well become a thing that we'll need to prepare for.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why
"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."
So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.
Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion
Actually, I can see some synergy there with Commissar Yarrick since he can essentially come back from the dead. Then heal him up. Its a limited/unique cicumstance but something. Additionally you can heal bullgryn with them.
I see alot of people upset about the slots units fill in 8th. While I agree some of them make you scratch your head, I think they are designed that way for what is to come. I have no inside knowledge but I think regiment doctrines are coming back.
Take a look at the chimera for example. Its not great in 8th. Lost its firing access point rule & command vehicle rule and costs over 100 points. It may be possible to give orders from vehicle but now that characters can only be targeted by snipers its not as useful. Additionally it does not fill a spot in our bread and butter brigade detachment.
If however Steel legion regiment specific rules come into play. I can easily see them becoming a fast attack slot. Not amazing, but certainly better than they are now. Something to think about.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why
"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."
So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.
Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion
You wanted a 10pt piece of wargear to bring characters back from the dead? On the upside they can still bring Heavy Weapon Teams and whatnot back, so it's not completely useless.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why
"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."
So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.
Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion
Medics also can't bring back characters because characters have more than 1 wound, and the medic can only revive 1-wound models.
This also means medics cannot revive Ogryns or Heavy Weapon Teams.
Other factions with medic-equivalents can revive multi-wound models as far as I can tell, and restore d3 wounds with their heal ability instead of 1 wound. Not sure why the IG medic got the short end of the stick there when he already has fewer valid targets, and those targets aren't worth as many points even when he succeeds.
Oh well, a minor loss. Not like the medic was ever worth his points before.
Oh well, a minor loss. Not like the medic was ever worth his points before.
Speak for yourself, mine once kept an entire Command Section alive whilst they pounded a unit of LOTD into dust over the course of two game turns (four rounds of combat).
Just looking at rough riders, hunting lances can only be used on the turn they charged. The order "Fix Bayonets!" lets you attack again in melee, letting rough riders double lance if you have an officer within 6" since its still the same turn. Pretty nice counter charge unit.
portugus wrote: Just looking at rough riders, hunting lances can only be used on the turn they charged. The order "Fix Bayonets!" lets you attack again in melee, letting rough riders double lance if you have an officer within 6" since its still the same turn. Pretty nice counter charge unit.
Rough riders aren't infantry, I don't think they can get orders
portugus wrote: Just looking at rough riders, hunting lances can only be used on the turn they charged. The order "Fix Bayonets!" lets you attack again in melee, letting rough riders double lance if you have an officer within 6" since its still the same turn. Pretty nice counter charge unit.
You're right, dang. They are still pretty good hitting on 4's and getting to outflank. Also they don't run out of lances if they survive the first combat.
What's everyone's take on the hunter killer missile? It's still one shot but it's price has dropped sharply and with d6 damage it could be interesting?
Useless Sidekick wrote: What's everyone's take on the hunter killer missile? It's still one shot but it's price has dropped sharply and with d6 damage it could be interesting?
I personally don't see much need for it in my list, I already have 18 missile launchers that can accept orders. I have never really been a fan of one shot weapons with our BS. Sure, it's cheap if you just need a few points filled, and at that point see no reason not to take it. But our vehicles are survivable enough that on a Russ I would rather take a Heavy Stubber, and get a few turns out of it.
Am I right in thinking that the Valkyrie disembark rules allow a unit to move after they have disembark, thus circumventing the the 9" rule? I read that as the unit only have to set up outside of 9" once while disembarking, they can still move closer as part of their normal move.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Am I right in thinking that the Valkyrie disembark rules allow a unit to move after they have disembark, thus circumventing the the 9" rule? I read that as the unit only have to set up outside of 9" once while disembarking, they can still move closer as part of their normal move.
I'm not familiar with the disembark rules yet, are you allowed to move after disembarking? If so I read it the same way. I would think of it this way: they are not deep-striking, they just have a "worse" disembark rule then normal transports, that states that they must be setup within 3 of the vehicle and 1 inch away from any enemies. in this case it's just 9 instead of 1.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Am I right in thinking that the Valkyrie disembark rules allow a unit to move after they have disembark, thus circumventing the the 9" rule? I read that as the unit only have to set up outside of 9" once while disembarking, they can still move closer as part of their normal move.
Can we talk about how our russes are supercharged plasma "safe" vs marine and chaos marine vehicles with plasma weapons getting outright killed from an overheat?
Sure our armored sentinels will die while dreads and hell brutes take less mortal wounds from their versions(1 per overheat).
But while plasma cannon sponsons will take off half our wounds from 1 or more cannon overheats; they then cannot fire the cannons again. And with the change in to-wounds and biguns T; we shouldn't really have to supercharge most of the time(especially with loss of ID).
Kommissar Kel wrote: Can we talk about how our russes are supercharged plasma "safe" vs marine and chaos marine vehicles with plasma weapons getting outright killed from an overheat?
Sure our armored sentinels will die while dreads and hell brutes take less mortal wounds from their versions(1 per overheat).
But while plasma cannon sponsons will take off half our wounds from 1 or more cannon overheats; they then cannot fire the cannons again. And with the change in to-wounds and biguns T; we shouldn't really have to supercharge most of the time(especially with loss of ID).
You mean the plasma vents or using cmd points to re-roll?
Chaos marine tanks have access to the combi-weapon list; one of thise is combi-plasma. Combi-plasma says see plasmagun. Plasmagun says roll of 1 is slain model.
Regular marine razorback can have twin plasma; again, slain model. Rhino primaris has a combi-plasma, slain model.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Can we talk about how our russes are supercharged plasma "safe" vs marine and chaos marine vehicles with plasma weapons getting outright killed from an overheat?
Sure our armored sentinels will die while dreads and hell brutes take less mortal wounds from their versions(1 per overheat).
But while plasma cannon sponsons will take off half our wounds from 1 or more cannon overheats; they then cannot fire the cannons again. And with the change in to-wounds and biguns T; we shouldn't really have to supercharge most of the time(especially with loss of ID).
Sure, but most of their units cheat. Only Chaos Rhinos with combi-plasma and Razorbacks with the lascannon + twin plasmagun set up are in danger of being insta-melted by their guns as far as I can tell. Other Space Marine vehicles get heavy plasma cannons which are exactly the same as plasma cannons, but they only take a mortal wound on overheat (but are more expensive because of it; 30pts), and the Chaos vehicles either get an overcharge only plasma cannon that only deals a mortal wound on a one (Hellbrute) or don't overheat at all (ectoplasma on Forgefiend).
EDIT: Yeah, forgot most Chaos can take combi-weapons, and didn't notice the primaris rhino. Good catches. (They are still mostly cheaters)
Kommissar Kel wrote: Can we talk about how our russes are supercharged plasma "safe" vs marine and chaos marine vehicles with plasma weapons getting outright killed from an overheat?
Sure our armored sentinels will die while dreads and hell brutes take less mortal wounds from their versions(1 per overheat).
But while plasma cannon sponsons will take off half our wounds from 1 or more cannon overheats; they then cannot fire the cannons again. And with the change in to-wounds and biguns T; we shouldn't really have to supercharge most of the time(especially with loss of ID).
Sure, but most of their units cheat. Only Chaos Rhinos with combi-plasma and Razorbacks with the lascannon + twin plasmagun set up are in danger of being insta-melted by their guns as far as I can tell. Other Space Marine vehicles get heavy plasma cannons which are exactly the same as plasma cannons, but they only take a mortal wound on overheat (but are more expensive because of it; 30pts), and the Chaos vehicles either get an overcharge only plasma cannon that only deals a mortal wound on a one (Hellbrute) or don't overheat at all (ectoplasma on Forgefiend).
Haha yeah can't let the guard have something unique or somehow do things better then chaos.
Is it alright for me to start a discussion about Baneblades?
I can't decide if I love them or hate them. On one hand, they have a ton of Dakka and the Baneblade cannon is terrifying, imho - they also got about 35 points cheaper IIRC (unless you put sponsons on them). They're also actually not awful at close combat (weirdly) until they take a bunch of wounds.
However, they suffer from moving and shooting penalties with every single gun (even though every other superheavy so far can move and shoot just fine), they only have a 3+ save (which makes me feel bleh), and they are slower.
We can talk about the other Baneblade variants too, but as someone who runs Baneblade companies in the Heresy and saw the Super-Heavy Detachment I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Is it alright for me to start a discussion about Baneblades?
I can't decide if I love them or hate them. On one hand, they have a ton of Dakka and the Baneblade cannon is terrifying, imho - they also got about 35 points cheaper IIRC (unless you put sponsons on them). They're also actually not awful at close combat (weirdly) until they take a bunch of wounds.
However, they suffer from moving and shooting penalties with every single gun (even though every other superheavy so far can move and shoot just fine), they only have a 3+ save (which makes me feel bleh), and they are slower.
We can talk about the other Baneblade variants too, but as someone who runs Baneblade companies in the Heresy and saw the Super-Heavy Detachment I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.
Sure. I don't own one but wanted to for sooo long.
Dosen't the knights only have a 3+ save aswell?
Isen't the baneblade the only tank lord of war available (without forgeworld books)? I think all the others are walkers or MC of some kind, so that might be their justification for the minus from moving. It does seem like an oversight, and should warrent a bigger discount then 35 points.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Is it alright for me to start a discussion about Baneblades?
I can't decide if I love them or hate them. On one hand, they have a ton of Dakka and the Baneblade cannon is terrifying, imho - they also got about 35 points cheaper IIRC (unless you put sponsons on them). They're also actually not awful at close combat (weirdly) until they take a bunch of wounds.
However, they suffer from moving and shooting penalties with every single gun (even though every other superheavy so far can move and shoot just fine), they only have a 3+ save (which makes me feel bleh), and they are slower.
We can talk about the other Baneblade variants too, but as someone who runs Baneblade companies in the Heresy and saw the Super-Heavy Detachment I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.
Sure. I don't own one but wanted to for sooo long.
Dosen't the knights only have a 3+ save aswell?
Isen't the baneblade the only tank lord of war available (without forgeworld books)? I think all the others are walkers or MC of some kind, so that might be their justification for the minus from moving. It does seem like an oversight, and should warrent a bigger discount then 35 points.
I own 15 (well, 6 Baneblades, 6 Stormswords, and 3 Stormhammers; was a heresy superheavy cohort).
The toughness of the vehicles I'm only a bit concerned with - slightly tougher than 2 LRBTs is alright I guess.
What I am worried about is whether or not the weapons are hard-hitting enough to make up for the 5+ to hit if you move, or if Baneblades just became largely pillboxes.
Part of what I liked about them in the Heresy and 7th Edition was they felt like real tanks, capable of maneuvering at high speed while still engaging targets efficiently. It seems that's gone.
Hmm, I guess one way to deal with line of sight would be to model officers kneeling, ducking, or in some other pose that makes sure they're shorter than your infantry models. Then deploy your infantry squads in tight, staggered ranks in front of the officer to block line of sight to him, since they don't have to worry about templates anymore.
It'd be modeling for advantage a bit but if you put some variety into the poses you can avoid being too blatant about it.
However, they suffer from moving and shooting penalties with every single gun (even though every other superheavy so far can move and shoot just fine).
.........
I have seen a few people state this but I must be missing where it is in the new rules.
Is it somewhere other than the data sheet, or am I just overlooking it?
vert, it is because Heavy Weapons suffer a -1 penalty if fired after you've moved in the same turn. Most SuperHeavies get a rule on their datasheet negating that penalty.
Pedroig wrote: vert, it is because Heavy Weapons suffer a -1 penalty if fired after you've moved in the same turn. Most SuperHeavies get a rule on their datasheet negating that penalty.
Oh ok, that seems obvious now. I keep forgetting they've done away with universal rules, I was looking for a special penalty.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Is it alright for me to start a discussion about Baneblades?
I can't decide if I love them or hate them. On one hand, they have a ton of Dakka and the Baneblade cannon is terrifying, imho - they also got about 35 points cheaper IIRC (unless you put sponsons on them). They're also actually not awful at close combat (weirdly) until they take a bunch of wounds.
However, they suffer from moving and shooting penalties with every single gun (even though every other superheavy so far can move and shoot just fine), they only have a 3+ save (which makes me feel bleh), and they are slower.
We can talk about the other Baneblade variants too, but as someone who runs Baneblade companies in the Heresy and saw the Super-Heavy Detachment I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.
Sure. I don't own one but wanted to for sooo long.
Dosen't the knights only have a 3+ save aswell?
Isen't the baneblade the only tank lord of war available (without forgeworld books)? I think all the others are walkers or MC of some kind, so that might be their justification for the minus from moving. It does seem like an oversight, and should warrent a bigger discount then 35 points.
I own 15 (well, 6 Baneblades, 6 Stormswords, and 3 Stormhammers; was a heresy superheavy cohort).
The toughness of the vehicles I'm only a bit concerned with - slightly tougher than 2 LRBTs is alright I guess.
What I am worried about is whether or not the weapons are hard-hitting enough to make up for the 5+ to hit if you move, or if Baneblades just became largely pillboxes.
Part of what I liked about them in the Heresy and 7th Edition was they felt like real tanks, capable of maneuvering at high speed while still engaging targets efficiently. It seems that's gone.
It seems like an overarching theme for 8th ed guard, the vehicles are durable but they output mediocre damage. Durable vehicle are semi-useless, the enemy will simply ignore them.
Maybe we need to rely more on our artillery then tanks for damage.
It seems like an overarching theme for 8th ed guard, the vehicles are durable but they output mediocre damage. Durable vehicle are semi-useless, the enemy will simply ignore them.
Maybe we need to rely more on our artillery then tanks for damage.
I tend to agree, for the points artillery seems to outstrip the tanks in terms of damage output. Especially with a fairly cheap Master of Ordnance providing re-rolls for 1's.
However, tanks (and vehicles in general) can't be so easily ignored as they were in previous editions. Expensive units can still be tied up in close combat if destroying them outright seems implausible. They can move out of combat sure, but aside from a very few select abilities doing so renders them useless. In addition to tying up a mob or elite unit, it also protects other chargers from overwatch.
Perhaps Russes aren't worth the points if you're having to resort to that, but I foresee vehicles like the Taurox and Chimera at least charging into whatever target their attached Veteran/SWS melta/plas failed to kill in the shooting phase. I have to admit a Chimera driver gunning the accelerator into a carnifex to buy his comrades some time sounds pretty fething baller.
Useless Sidekick wrote: What's everyone's take on the hunter killer missile? It's still one shot but it's price has dropped sharply and with d6 damage it could be interesting?
It's cheaper and it doesn't have anti-synergy with anti-infantry guns any more. For one, stuff like heavy bolters can wound vehicles more capably, so you can fire both weapons at the same target and not waste firepower. For another, you can split fire, so the HKs can go after armor and the light weapons can attack infantry, if you want.
It seems like an overarching theme for 8th ed guard, the vehicles are durable but they output mediocre damage. Durable vehicle are semi-useless, the enemy will simply ignore them.
Maybe we need to rely more on our artillery then tanks for damage.
I tend to agree, for the points artillery seems to outstrip the tanks in terms of damage output. Especially with a fairly cheap Master of Ordnance providing re-rolls for 1's.
However, tanks (and vehicles in general) can't be so easily ignored as they were in previous editions. Expensive units can still be tied up in close combat if destroying them outright seems implausible. They can move out of combat sure, but aside from a very few select abilities doing so renders them useless. In addition to tying up a mob or elite unit, it also protects other chargers from overwatch.
Perhaps Russes aren't worth the points if you're having to resort to that, but I foresee vehicles like the Taurox and Chimera at least charging into whatever target their attached Veteran/SWS melta/plas failed to kill in the shooting phase. I have to admit a Chimera driver gunning the accelerator into a carnifex to buy his comrades some time sounds pretty fething baller.
Speaking of the transports. The Chimera is 100 points with weapon options and its lost both the command ability and the ability for troops to short out of it. It really is just a transport now, which isent bad but seems a tad expensive. For the Taurox, dosent the missiler launcher seem overprised when you can take a Manticore for the same points? Sure it cant transport Scions, but they can deep strike anyway.
I suppose one interesting/oddball change is that the lasgun arrays "can only be used if a unit is embarked on the transport". It doesn't say anything about having enough models to man the lasguns, if there's "a unit" of any size in the Chimera, both lasgun arrays (all six lasguns) can fire. And with the loss of firing arcs, they can all fire at the same target.
The only unit I can think of that is both cheaper than six lasgun guardsmen and capable of boarding a Chimera though is an Astropath, and it's such a small thing that it's more of an amusing curiosity than anything actually useful.
I guess an Astropath psychically controlling six lasguns technically is legit though.
ross-128 wrote: I suppose one interesting/oddball change is that the lasgun arrays "can only be used if a unit is embarked on the transport". It doesn't say anything about having enough models to man the lasguns, if there's "a unit" of any size in the Chimera, both lasgun arrays (all six lasguns) can fire. And with the loss of firing arcs, they can all fire at the same target.
The only unit I can think of that is both cheaper than six lasgun guardsmen and capable of boarding a Chimera though is an Astropath, and it's such a small thing that it's more of an amusing curiosity than anything actually useful.
I guess an Astropath psychically controlling six lasguns technically is legit though.
DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SIX LASGUNS! Maybe commissars?
There's also the problem that more than likely matched play will limit formations, which if we're going to be honest here, most metas will likely do. This means that infantry guard is facing a very real risk of not having enough slots (even with brigades) to deploy their army. If this happens, infantry squads will be dead in the water, and odds are you'll see most players default to conscripts and stormtroopers, or running the elite formation for a core of veteran squads. I know people are already saying "well how the heck are you going to run out of formations with guard?" but when many of our best choices in each slot cost 30-40pts KITTED OUT, slots will be at a premium, especially if you try to take allies which will eat up an entire formation..
Out of curiosity how many infantry squads you would like to field if 36 troop choices(3 brigades, suggested limit for 2k) isn't enough? Even if tournament is stricter than suggested with 2 that's still 24 infantry squad. 240 models. Tough to field and half the points already O_o
Useless Sidekick wrote: What's everyone's take on the hunter killer missile? It's still one shot but it's price has dropped sharply and with d6 damage it could be interesting?
Split fire and 6 points ensures that I'll be running them on essentially every vehicle. But I'm also experiencing that giddy rush on heavy stubbers for 4 points. Thank God I've been hoarding stubbers for years now! Premium salvage for the win.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Am I right in thinking that the Valkyrie disembark rules allow a unit to move after they have disembark, thus circumventing the the 9" rule? I read that as the unit only have to set up outside of 9" once while disembarking, they can still move closer as part of their normal move.
I'm not familiar with the disembark rules yet, are you allowed to move after disembarking? If so I read it the same way. I would think of it this way: they are not deep-striking, they just have a "worse" disembark rule then normal transports, that states that they must be setup within 3 of the vehicle and 1 inch away from any enemies. in this case it's just 9 instead of 1.
Meltas feel like the big disappointment now. Ability to jump out of a Valk, walk, get within 6", and nukashot might be the consolation prize they need.
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ross-128 wrote: Hmm, I guess one way to deal with line of sight would be to model officers kneeling, ducking, or in some other pose that makes sure they're shorter than your infantry models. Then deploy your infantry squads in tight, staggered ranks in front of the officer to block line of sight to him, since they don't have to worry about templates anymore.
It'd be modeling for advantage a bit but if you put some variety into the poses you can avoid being too blatant about it.
This I suspect might be a new (and potentially vitriolic) problem with my local group. Is line of sight from face to whatever? Is it true line of sight that way, because it almost instantly hits micromanagement absurdity. My back rank of guys in the same squad? My squad to the squad in front? I'm shooting at your guy behind a squad... he's more visible the further back I am since the angle is shallower. Oh look, Steel Legion heavy bolters have the good sense to lay prone when firing... so get an advantage? Basically it can get knife-pulling infuriating VERY quickly if one is pedantic.
Everyone I know has been treating intervening models as cover for multiple editions now. But now they just flat dont since in lots of ways it's like 4th edition cover.
I'm glad I'm not a tournament organizer trying to rule on this in the first month.
Hmm, now I'm wanting to mathhammer 12 half-range meltaguns (in three four-man command squads) vs 8 overcharged plasmaguns re-rolling 1s as an anti-tank drop force (the officer to let them re-roll 1s unfortunately doesn't leave enough room in the transport for a third squad). Against an LRBT I guess, it's beefy enough to be a benchmark.
12 meltagun shots hitting on 3 should give 9 hits, wounding on 4s is 4.5, AP-4 means no save. 2d6 discarding lowest is a bit tricky, but with 4.5 wounds a 1d6 was already averaging enough to kill it, so with the melta bonus yeah it's probably dead.
8 plasma guns in rapid-fire gives 16 shots, hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s gives 10.6 hits and 2.6 1s, which get rerolled to another 1.7 hits for 12.3 hits total. Wounding on 4s gives 6.15, -3AP is a 6+ save for 5 wounds doing 10 damage.
Though it looks like if you don't mind sacrificing some people to Gets Hot, you could do a 12-man plasma drop too and it would more or less get the same results as the melta drop.
Cost-wise, a 12-man melta drop will cost 216 points plus their transport (72 for 12 vets, 144 for 12 melta guns). The 8-man plasma drop will either cost 134 plus the transport (30 for a commander, 48 for 8 vets, 56 for 8 plasma guns) or 168 with no transport, since the plasma gun's 12" rapid-fire range allows it to function with a scion deep-strike (40 for a Tempestor with command stick, 72 for 8 scions, 56 for 8 plasma guns).
8 rapid fire supercharged plasma reroll 1s has an aggregate average of 6.481 repeating damage. It will also kill .4 reapeating of your models from overheat.
12 meltas, no reroll 1s, half range, will do 20.115 damage.
I'm largely happy with the rules. Just two little nit picks:
It would have been really easy to keep the chimeras mobile command vehicle rule. Just say that an officer embarked upon it can still use their voice of command rule, measuring from any point on the vehicles hull. And whilst embarked upon the chimera the range of their voc is 18", because it has its own vox casters.
I would also love a baneblade commander, representing a really high ranking IG officer joining the battle. It's a baneblade that has both the voice of command rule (with an 18" range) and the tank orders rule too.
But overall I'm liking the direction they're going in.
Question about the new rules. Can you give a unit two orders and have the effects stack?
Also, how do sniper rifles work? It says if you roll a 6 the target takes a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage. Does this mean that if you roll a 6 to wound, the target rolls their armor save as normal and takes that wound + another mortal wound?
IronJack wrote: Question about the new rules. Can you give a unit two orders and have the effects stack?
Also, how do sniper rifles work? It says if you roll a 6 the target takes a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage. Does this mean that if you roll a 6 to wound, the target rolls their armor save as normal and takes that wound + another mortal wound?
Orders don't stack and that is a correct description of how snipers work now.
There's also the problem that more than likely matched play will limit formations, which if we're going to be honest here, most metas will likely do. This means that infantry guard is facing a very real risk of not having enough slots (even with brigades) to deploy their army. If this happens, infantry squads will be dead in the water, and odds are you'll see most players default to conscripts and stormtroopers, or running the elite formation for a core of veteran squads. I know people are already saying "well how the heck are you going to run out of formations with guard?" but when many of our best choices in each slot cost 30-40pts KITTED OUT, slots will be at a premium, especially if you try to take allies which will eat up an entire formation..
Out of curiosity how many infantry squads you would like to field if 36 troop choices(3 brigades, suggested limit for 2k) isn't enough? Even if tournament is stricter than suggested with 2 that's still 24 infantry squad. 240 models. Tough to field and half the points already O_o
The main slot guard players will want is elite choices
Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.
I feel like spammed Plasma Scions are going to "that guy's" army. I say that as I'm converting my Scion meltas to plasmas or course, but I fear taking too many squads of these guys because it seems borderline broken.
IronJack wrote: Also, how do sniper rifles work? It says if you roll a 6 the target takes a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage. Does this mean that if you roll a 6 to wound, the target rolls their armor save as normal and takes that wound + another mortal wound?
Not sure if your wording implied it, but just in case: you take the mortal wound no matter if the save is a pass or fail, it is separate.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I feel like spammed Plasma Scions are going to "that guy's" army. I say that as I'm converting my Scion meltas to plasmas or course, but I fear taking too many squads of these guys because it seems borderline broken.
It is always bittersweet when a unit you love gets a power boost. People sometimes give you flak about being a bandwagon jumper or whatever, yet you've been playing Scions for ages. I know people who have played Scion only armies since they came out, struggling with a mediocre list because they really love them. Now they get thrust to the top of the pile.
MrMoustaffa wrote: The main slot guard players will want is elite choices
Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.
Well 36 troops and 24 elites still sound like you should be safe
MrMoustaffa wrote: The main slot guard players will want is elite choices
Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.
Well 36 troops and 24 elites still sound like you should be safe
Not really, still got points to worry, and there is better for cost units in the elite option.
Looking at the cost of the LR and we went from 150 for a basic LR to 162 points. As far as what a lot of vehicles got bumped 12 points is not to bad for the durability part of the cost anyways.
The damage of the LR well at first glance it looks like it is really low, but in truth how many times did the template miss completely and/or get the hit for three wounds. so not really that upset by it but would like two d3 or a d6 plus one would be nice.
I played the punisher since fifth as i like them for close support with out a chance of killing my own men, but the LR was so easy to destroy i ended up playing tau. punisher was 160 points with sponsons, now it comes in at 168 pts add in the storm bolter for two more points 170 points.
10 points for a far more durable LR, and an extra couple of shots yeah i think they are playable.
Rpant wrote: Looking at the cost of the LR and we went from 150 for a basic LR to 162 points. As far as what a lot of vehicles got bumped 12 points is not to bad for the durability part of the cost anyways.
The damage of the LR well at first glance it looks like it is really low, but in truth how many times did the template miss completely and/or get the hit for three wounds. so not really that upset by it but would like two d3 or a d6 plus one would be nice.
I played the punisher since fifth as i like them for close support with out a chance of killing my own men, but the LR was so easy to destroy i ended up playing tau. punisher was 160 points with sponsons, now it comes in at 168 pts add in the storm bolter for two more points 170 points.
10 points for a far more durable LR, and an extra couple of shots yeah i think they are playable.
Punisher cannon is actually 20 points, for what little difference 2 points makes.
But yeah, IG was largely spared the price hikes that other factions' vehicles got. The only thing that really put our vehicles in a tough spot is our infantry got buffed so much, and I suppose having one part of our army buffed so much that it overshadows another part is kind of a "first world problem".
It's just that the removal of templates has been a rather big deal for infantry hordes. Having so many models on the table that you can't space them adequately is no longer a weakness, the staying power of hordes has improved dramatically, and dealing with the fact that the only way to remove them is sheer volume of fire has required a lot of adjustment.
Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.
Platoon Commanders being Elite instead of HQ kind of tees me off, tbh. I don't see a balance reason for it, and the 2 HQ requirement/competitive slot means many armies are going to have their lieutenants outnumbered by their captains.
ross-128 wrote: Punisher cannon is actually 20 points, for what little difference 2 points makes.
But yeah, IG was largely spared the price hikes that other factions' vehicles got. The only thing that really put our vehicles in a tough spot is our infantry got buffed so much, and I suppose having one part of our army buffed so much that it overshadows another part is kind of a "first world problem".
It's just that the removal of templates has been a rather big deal for infantry hordes. Having so many models on the table that you can't space them adequately is no longer a weakness, the staying power of hordes has improved dramatically, and dealing with the fact that the only way to remove them is sheer volume of fire has required a lot of adjustment.
sorry my sheet looks like 22 but the print is not a good one.
infantry are going to be a new thing there is no doubt, but we have lots of things to deal with them. (morters look amazing)
LR may be the new anti tank not sure but i really do like the look of tanks this time around.
chimeras got the bat but not as bad as some in my opinion but i will not be fielding 10 of them anymore.
i plan on a bunch of infantry running with the tanks much like the soviet advances you see in the films.
Yeah, I'd definitely rather have PCs in the HQ slot. They are commanders after all, the command slot is under-populated, the elite slot is over-populated, it would just make sense.
Also I'm pretty frequently finding myself already having all the Orders I want when building a list, but still taking more Company Commanders because they're the cheapest way to unlock a detachment I want. It would be nice if I could use a 20-point platoon commander for that instead.
ross-128 wrote: Yeah, I'd definitely rather have PCs in the HQ slot. They are commanders after all, the command slot is under-populated, the elite slot is over-populated, it would just make sense.
Also I'm pretty frequently finding myself already having all the Orders I want when building a list, but still taking more Company Commanders because they're the cheapest way to unlock a detachment I want. It would be nice if I could use a 20-point platoon commander for that instead.
Personally I'm house-ruling it in my group. I don't play Matched anyway and am not using it to cheese out my elite slots; it just makes the units I field more sensibly organized.
Yeah, it's pretty weird that Platoon Commanders are an elite choice now - they should totally be HQ units.
Also, Scions+Taurox Prime's are the new meta - shame, I like those units; but they're just too good to pass up nowadays. Everyone will be running them and heavy weapons teams.
Also, tanks for IG not being so great anymore, sadface.
Rpant wrote: Looking at the cost of the LR and we went from 150 for a basic LR to 162 points. As far as what a lot of vehicles got bumped 12 points is not to bad for the durability part of the cost anyways.
The damage of the LR well at first glance it looks like it is really low, but in truth how many times did the template miss completely and/or get the hit for three wounds. so not really that upset by it but would like two d3 or a d6 plus one would be nice.
I played the punisher since fifth as i like them for close support with out a chance of killing my own men, but the LR was so easy to destroy i ended up playing tau. punisher was 160 points with sponsons, now it comes in at 168 pts add in the storm bolter for two more points 170 points.
10 points for a far more durable LR, and an extra couple of shots yeah i think they are playable.
I agree about the LRBT. People forget just how bad the LRBT was in 7th, probably because they stopped using them so long ago. As someone who doggedly tried to make them useful vs Tau and drop podding SWs with TWC, I think that 8th has only improved them. I also think we will see the rise of the Heavy Flamer Russ as a close support assault deterrent. From another thread:
In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too. Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army. They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you. Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon. That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come. Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit. If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again. Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting. They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have? If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again. If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry. They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't.
Martel732 wrote: This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party
Exactly, because you really don't want to charge that thing. I think people advocating pure infantry Guard though are going to be surprised them a squad of Khorne Berserkers insta-gibs 2 squads on a multicharge, consolidates into another squad, gibs them mercilessly and then consolidates into another. Or your commissar gets sniped and men start dropping like flies to battleshock. I don't even want to think of facing something like Nu BAs or SWs with pure infantry because between first turn charges, charges out of deep strike and charges out of transports I think they will lawnmower right through you regardless of how many men you bring. Combined arms seems the best approach to me, an the LR definitely has a role to play. I think they did a really good job internally balancing the IG list, with a couple exceptions.
Using them as charge-blockers is a potentially interesting application. Though I wonder if Hellhounds or even Sentinels might be better in that application. They're not nearly as durable of course, but Hellhounds give you a heavy flamer and inferno cannon for 110 points, while Sentinels can put heavy flamers down for 52 points each. A triple-flame and Punisher LRBT is looking at 203 points. Though, bringing higher saves and a Punisher to the party certainly is potentially worth it.
Of course, I would certainly vastly prefer a Punisher over the battle cannon in that application because if you're using a flamer wall to block charges, you're going to be well within 24" anyway. Might as well bring the dakka.
In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too. Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army. They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you. Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon. That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come. Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit. If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again. Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting. They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have? If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again. If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry. They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't.
Hellhounds also work well for this. Only D6 hits, but S6, 2 damage, and longer range. Plus they're faster and explode on a 4+ instead of a 6+, meaning an aggressively placed Hellhound is both a speedbump and a Mortal Wound threat.
I think that the fireball russ will be my go to variant if I want to run an advancing army, the -1 to hit on other weapons really makes me want to never move them. In fact, I am pretty much going to treat vehicles as immobile for most of the game if they lose BS on the move. It doesn't even really matter if it is a bad decision or not, I just see that -1 and think "better stay still then". The demolisher and punisher may be reasonable as advancing tanks, which is what I always tried to use them as.
I am actually coming around on the idea of mech (well, Armoured Battle Group in my case). The ability to vastly reduce the units that you put on the board and get within reach of going first is really appealing. Cheap armoured fist squads in chimeras/taurox, with extra chimera slots filled with various buff characters, could make a reasonably mobile fighting force. You also are not losing to much by leaving your units inside transports until they are needed.
Mech could work so well with Krieg too, as their grenadiers in Centaurs could be extremly effective if given the right price, as I am guessing that the Centaur is still open-topped and fast.
Martel732 wrote: This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party
Exactly, because you really don't want to charge that thing. I think people advocating pure infantry Guard though are going to be surprised them a squad of Khorne Berserkers insta-gibs 2 squads on a multicharge, consolidates into another squad, gibs them mercilessly and then consolidates into another. Or your commissar gets sniped and men start dropping like flies to battleshock. I don't even want to think of facing something like Nu BAs or SWs with pure infantry because between first turn charges, charges out of deep strike and charges out of transports I think they will lawnmower right through you regardless of how many men you bring. Combined arms seems the best approach to me, an the LR definitely has a role to play. I think they did a really good job internally balancing the IG list, with a couple exceptions.
There's actually quite a bit of stuff BA don't want to fight in CC, but that's why we've got the Baal predator and a crap ton of melta still.
I for one am loving the buff that Volley Guns have received - the guns themselves are cheaper, as are the platforms they come on, and instead of salvo 2/4, they are just heavy 4. I look forward to dropping a few of them down to just mulch infantry, considering heavy only brings a -1BS anymore. They are worse at killing marines than they previously were, but the volume of fire will make up for it somewhat I would imagine.
Long story short, I am glad I have somehow amassed a large number of scions, kasrkin, and 3rd edition stormtroopers over the past year or two (I seriously don't remember how, I went from about 3 boxes of scions total to something like 25 scions, 50 kasrkin, and 50 stormtroopers over a 6 month period...).
In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too. Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army. They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you. Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon. That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come. Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit. If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again. Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting. They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have? If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again. If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry. They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't.
Hellhounds also work well for this. Only D6 hits, but S6, 2 damage, and longer range. Plus they're faster and explode on a 4+ instead of a 6+, meaning an aggressively placed Hellhound is both a speedbump and a Mortal Wound threat.
The other great option is going to be a dual HF Chimera I think. At first I was scared of the point cost, but a Chimera with dual HF is no longer a mere transport, it's nearly a Hellhound and a real threat. I am really warming up to (no pun intended) that idea. Armored Fist squads rolling up to objectives in a mini Hellhound for a turn 2 assault after a turn 1 smoke sounds very viable.
Martel732 wrote: This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party
Exactly, because you really don't want to charge that thing. I think people advocating pure infantry Guard though are going to be surprised them a squad of Khorne Berserkers insta-gibs 2 squads on a multicharge, consolidates into another squad, gibs them mercilessly and then consolidates into another. Or your commissar gets sniped and men start dropping like flies to battleshock. I don't even want to think of facing something like Nu BAs or SWs with pure infantry because between first turn charges, charges out of deep strike and charges out of transports I think they will lawnmower right through you regardless of how many men you bring. Combined arms seems the best approach to me, an the LR definitely has a role to play. I think they did a really good job internally balancing the IG list, with a couple exceptions.
They don't get to keep going and going in a single turn though. Yes, the initial unit will be mulched because they're guardsmen, but then you pull back your next unit, order "Get back in the fight" so they can shoot, and unload into the melee unit at close range.
I'm interested in trying the Fireball russ, but I don't think infantry army is going to get mulched in two turns like you're claiming it will.
usmcmidn wrote: Well there goes my beautifully converted all carapace army...
Why? Not like you can't just run it anyway. Nowhere is it defined that carapace models can't be used as normal Guardsmen. I know it kinda sucks to lose the 4+ but it's not like you need to rip apart your conversions to get them to look like a 5+ save.
Also, you could always consider running a dkok army with them. The combat engineers and grenadiers are both carapace models, so will likely keep a 4+.
SU-152 wrote: No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...
Manticore looks really fun. I only own Manticores and Hydras though, I'm not too sure about the other variants. The Manticore seems really good at targeting any unit with multiple wounds. I don't know if having only 4 shots will turn out badly, but front loading your damage into the first 4 turns seems like a decent idea to me.
Thinking some more about the Fireball Punisher/Demolisher. It gets decent shooting and overwatch, but if even a single model gets within 1" it is locked in combat and can't do a thing. One option is to sit there, not killing much because of the 6+ to hit. Or you can fall back, being useless but letting other units fire at the target. I guess you could also move up some combat support, but the Russ is still useless for a turn.
usmcmidn wrote: Well there goes my beautifully converted all carapace army...
Why? Not like you can't just run it anyway. Nowhere is it defined that carapace models can't be used as normal Guardsmen. I know it kinda sucks to lose the 4+ but it's not like you need to rip apart your conversions to get them to look like a 5+ save.
Also, you could always consider running a dkok army with them. The combat engineers and grenadiers are both carapace models, so will likely keep a 4+.
I may look into DKOK, I never thought about that. Are the grenadiers and/or engineers troop choices by any chance?
usmcmidn wrote: I may look into DKOK, I never thought about that. Are the grenadiers and/or engineers troop choices by any chance?
Well we won't know for sure until the FW indices are released later this month. However, going off the previous rules grenadiers were elites and engineers were troops.
How about a quuck discussion on scout sentinels. At first they didn't seem too great, then I took a closer look.
At 54 ppm for a heavy flamer and chainsaw(60 if you add a hunter-killer), and the scout move not having a charge restriction; they can make for a really good first turn damage-and-die unit.
While the scout move must end more than 9" away, the first turn still allows a move... Of 9", so you can absolutely end them under 2" for a guaranteed charge, fire the heavy flamer for auto-hitting(and target a vehicle or other large model with the H-K), then charge them in for a delaying tactic(single attack with the same profile as the heavy flamer).
It is not the toughest nut for your oppinent to crack, but a squadron of 2 or 3 of them might even keep a unit(or 2) in the enemy DZ until turn 3.
Hmmm, first turn charging sentinels are an interesting idea. You would have to be careful about being inside the enemies charge range if going second. However, if you can charge a unit that wants to come and munch your forces, then I can see it working well as a delaying tactic. For instance, if you take 3 single sentinels then the enemy has to decide how many attacks to put on each one. This can lead to overkill and make some wounds just disappear. It all depends on the chances of surviving your own charge though, if you die then you are just giving them extra inches. But I can think of worse ways to use up the 3 fast attack choices in a brigade.
SU-152 wrote: No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...
Manticore looks really fun. I only own Manticores and Hydras though, I'm not too sure about the other variants. The Manticore seems really good at targeting any unit with multiple wounds. I don't know if having only 4 shots will turn out badly, but front loading your damage into the first 4 turns seems like a decent idea to me.
Thinking some more about the Fireball Punisher/Demolisher. It gets decent shooting and overwatch, but if even a single model gets within 1" it is locked in combat and can't do a thing. One option is to sit there, not killing much because of the 6+ to hit. Or you can fall back, being useless but letting other units fire at the target. I guess you could also move up some combat support, but the Russ is still useless for a turn.
Yeah, I'm thinking the front-loaded damage will likely be worth. Especially since four turns is 80% of the game, so you're not missing out on much, and with 2d6 per turn you basically get to toss eight dice over the course of the game where most blast weapons would be tossing five.
The toughest challenger for the the Manticore is probably the Basilisk (mostly because the other significant rival, mortar teams, targets entirely different models). 2d6 drop low has the same ceiling as 1d6, but it does skew the Basilisk higher than a typical blast weapon and the Basilisk is 25 points cheaper.
So then the question becomes: is 25 points worth the difference between four turns of 2d6, and five turns of 2d6 drop low? Overall I think I'm leaning toward the Manticore, just because straight 2d6 can get 7+ about half the time, 2d6 drop low will get 3+ about 90% of the time, but it's capped at 6, I don't think one extra turn of shooting will make up for it, and I think the extra 25 points will likely be worth the difference.
However, if I happen to find that I need an extra multiple of 25 elsewhere in my list, downgrading Manticores to Basilisks would be a viable option to get those points.
Hmmm, first turn charging sentinels are an interesting idea. You would have to be careful about being inside the enemies charge range if going second. However, if you can charge a unit that wants to come and munch your forces, then I can see it working well as a delaying tactic. For instance, if you take 3 single sentinels then the enemy has to decide how many attacks to put on each one. This can lead to overkill and make some wounds just disappear. It all depends on the chances of surviving your own charge though, if you die then you are just giving them extra inches. But I can think of worse ways to use up the 3 fast attack choices in a brigade.
I was thinking more on it while working.
Our other options with scout sentinels are lascannon, missile launcher, or autocannons. All 3 of those guns paired with H-Ks will be extra nasty as a first-strike ranged tactic. Units of 3 deployed in the open but near cover-granting terrain. Bait deploy near-enough some proper targets(vehicles), then scout into cover and unload first turn. On average rolls with each weapon we should be able to strip a good 8w off most vehicle targets; who then, if they have 10 or more wounds are likely moving slow and barely able to hit anything.
Armored sentinels are even better with plasma cannons since you do not overheat if you don't supercharge. And Plasma in the overall shouldn't be supercharged except as a last resort(where you have likely lost to that target anyways).
SU-152 wrote: No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...
Manticore looks really fun. I only own Manticores and Hydras though, I'm not too sure about the other variants. The Manticore seems really good at targeting any unit with multiple wounds. I don't know if having only 4 shots will turn out badly, but front loading your damage into the first 4 turns seems like a decent idea to me.
Thinking some more about the Fireball Punisher/Demolisher. It gets decent shooting and overwatch, but if even a single model gets within 1" it is locked in combat and can't do a thing. One option is to sit there, not killing much because of the 6+ to hit. Or you can fall back, being useless but letting other units fire at the target. I guess you could also move up some combat support, but the Russ is still useless for a turn.
Yeah, I'm thinking the front-loaded damage will likely be worth. Especially since four turns is 80% of the game, so you're not missing out on much, and with 2d6 per turn you basically get to toss eight dice over the course of the game where most blast weapons would be tossing five.
The toughest challenger for the the Manticore is probably the Basilisk (mostly because the other significant rival, mortar teams, targets entirely different models). 2d6 drop low has the same ceiling as 1d6, but it does skew the Basilisk higher than a typical blast weapon and the Basilisk is 25 points cheaper.
So then the question becomes: is 25 points worth the difference between four turns of 2d6, and five turns of 2d6 drop low? Overall I think I'm leaning toward the Manticore, just because straight 2d6 can get 7+ about half the time, 2d6 drop low will get 3+ about 90% of the time, but it's capped at 6, I don't think one extra turn of shooting will make up for it, and I think the extra 25 points will likely be worth the difference.
However, if I happen to find that I need an extra multiple of 25 elsewhere in my list, downgrading Manticores to Basilisks would be a viable option to get those points.
I don't think the last round of shooting matters much. The battle is generally decided by that point. Manticores tend not to survive to the end of the game anyway, they're just too dangerous a unit to ignore.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I don't think the last round of shooting matters much. The battle is generally decided by that point. Manticores tend not to survive to the end of the game anyway, they're just too dangerous a unit to ignore.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. As much as I like the Manticore's front loaded damage, I think that last turn shooting to clear objectives can be really important.
The fact that sentinels are actually good now is a god send for me. I've got 18 of them!
Would heavy flamer and chainsaw equipped scout sentinels be too fragile to use as a line breaker unit? I'm thinking about small nids, tau infantry, genestealer Cultists. Those sorts of units.
Thought on platoon commanders. With lots of people taking snipers to deal with buff characters, is it worth taking two platoon commanders instead of one company commander on occasion? You're paying 33% more for a 50% increase in durability (6 wounds vs 4). Two models vs one also means you can spread your orders around a bit easier if you don't want to invest in a vox network.
Obviously doesn't fill HQ requirement, but thems the brakes.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Thought on platoon commanders. With lots of people taking snipers to deal with buff characters, is it worth taking two platoon commanders instead of one company commander on occasion? You're paying 33% more for a 50% increase in durability (6 wounds vs 4). Two models vs one also means you can spread your orders around a bit easier if you don't want to invest in a vox network.
Obviously doesn't fill HQ requirement, but thems the brakes.
I think it is. What's the maximum amount of hq choices you can have?
Also, I just checked out the rules for smoke launchers...they go from shooting phase to shooting phase. Does the reduced to hit rule affect cc attacks as well? If so, those alpha striking scout sentinels suddenly look even better!
Future War Cultist wrote: Also, I just checked out the rules for smoke launchers...they go from shooting phase to shooting phase. Does the reduced to hit rule affect cc attacks as well? If so, those alpha striking scout sentinels suddenly look even better!
Blacksails wrote: I read that, but I must not have actually processed it. That's a really weird way to determine first turn.
Why? "Realism"-wise, certainly makes sense that bigger forces are more unwieldy. Balance-wise, morale penalizes big units for every scenario except No Mercy.
Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?
Future War Cultist wrote: Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?
Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?
This plus the Vanquisher. I think there is a Genestealer infiltration within the Departmento Munitorum. They are diverting the best equipment to Genestealer Cults!
Future War Cultist wrote: Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?
Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?
This plus the Vanquisher. I think there is a Genestealer infiltration within the Departmento Munitorum. They are diverting the best equipment to Genestealer Cults!
Future War Cultist wrote: The fact that sentinels are actually good now is a god send for me. I've got 18 of them!
Would heavy flamer and chainsaw equipped scout sentinels be too fragile to use as a line breaker unit? I'm thinking about small nids, tau infantry, genestealer Cultists. Those sorts of units.
I feel you there. Just got back into the game almost a year ago, only to have EVERYTHING i just re-learned change. Emperor's Talon formation looked like fun and Sentinels, armored and scout, were my favorite models. So next thing i knew i had 30 of em, and now the formation doesnt work.
Although, outrider detachment (theres your 18!) with a russ at the helm, maybe a couple more as backup, could also be interesting. I know i will definitely have at least one squad with plasma and hkms. Yay game-wide split fire
Don't forget that you can fit 15 sentinels in a brigade if you want to. It would be about 900 points but could easily work in a 2k list. I guess that not many people would be expecting it either.
Future War Cultist wrote: Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?
Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?
This plus the Vanquisher. I think there is a Genestealer infiltration within the Departmento Munitorum. They are diverting the best equipment to Genestealer Cults!
Blacksails wrote: I read that, but I must not have actually processed it. That's a really weird way to determine first turn.
Why? "Realism"-wise, certainly makes sense that bigger forces are more unwieldy. Balance-wise, morale penalizes big units for every scenario except No Mercy.
It also basically means that Guard armies will almost never go first.
I have to say that I am very dissapointed with the Deathstrike. "3D6 mortal wounds plus D3 to any unit within 6" of the target" is not a gargantuan colossal missile of rape and death the size of a main battle tank. And as the Deathstrike is a oneshot piece, it basically means that you will only ever bring them for sniping enemy bigshiny units. However the fact that you will usually not be going first as opposed to the smaller, more elite, forces means that more often than not any such 'power units' that you possess will be sniped on the first turn, leaving you with overpriced and under gunned LRBT's and Vanquishers to try and deal with the enemies LoW.
I understand the angst that comes with a new edition/codex, and there are always a few who get carried away. But there's a lot of good stuff in this edition, it will just taking adapting. The true firepower of guard may be all the flamers. Hellhounds are great for the points, and flamer Chimeras will serve multiple roles. They will also be useful for all the close quarter fighting that will take place.
The fact is that units are more fragile, relatively. Anything you own will die if the enemy wants it to. But the converse is also true. So just be better at target priorities - should be easy for Guardsmen.
So 3d6 4+ to hit unsaveable auto wounds is around 4.5 wounds plus the d3 4+ to hit mortal wounds on all units within 6".
There is also every chance in the world that you can score 0 hits on the target unit and then 3 mortal wounds to every other unit within range; which is weirdly funny.
That is a very compelling reason to go mech/ABG. Hell, I may do something similar. 2 Scions, 2 Conscripts and 2 Armoured Fist in Chimeras. Stick all of your characters in the Chimeras first turn, to save deployment choices. Use Rough riders and Ratlings, other units which screw with deployment. I mean, you will still go second against the really small armies but have a chance against medium size ones.
Just played a 1500pt test game with my Cadians against my friends Tau. It was a fun game. But man, his Tau were TOUGH. Deep striking Scions were CLUTCH. Mortar heavy weapons squads were so good. I wish I had brought a second squad of them. I used my ratlings infiltration to deny him good deep striking locations on my flank. I spaced out everything fairly well so his 2 squads of suits didn't get a jump on anybody and couldn't get within fusion blaster range of my tanks. Although Hammerheads are nuts in this edition, especially with his tank commander. They were seriously brutal. My 3 LRs didn't stand a chance. Even with Pask leading them. I think with Pask and a tank commander battle buddy team, they would have been more efficient. But I wanted to try out too many things. If you guys have any questions, I could go into more depth.
Colonel Cross wrote: Just played a 1500pt test game with my Cadians against my friends Tau. It was a fun game. But man, his Tau were TOUGH. Deep striking Scions were CLUTCH. Mortar heavy weapons squads were so good. I wish I had brought a second squad of them. I used my ratlings infiltration to deny him good deep striking locations on my flank. I spaced out everything fairly well so his 2 squads of suits didn't get a jump on anybody and couldn't get within fusion blaster range of my tanks. Although Hammerheads are nuts in this edition, especially with his tank commander. They were seriously brutal. My 3 LRs didn't stand a chance. Even with Pask leading them. I think with Pask and a tank commander battle buddy team, they would have been more efficient. But I wanted to try out too many things. If you guys have any questions, I could go into more depth.
Colonel Cross wrote: Just played a 1500pt test game with my Cadians against my friends Tau. It was a fun game. But man, his Tau were TOUGH. Deep striking Scions were CLUTCH. Mortar heavy weapons squads were so good. I wish I had brought a second squad of them. I used my ratlings infiltration to deny him good deep striking locations on my flank. I spaced out everything fairly well so his 2 squads of suits didn't get a jump on anybody and couldn't get within fusion blaster range of my tanks. Although Hammerheads are nuts in this edition, especially with his tank commander. They were seriously brutal. My 3 LRs didn't stand a chance. Even with Pask leading them. I think with Pask and a tank commander battle buddy team, they would have been more efficient. But I wanted to try out too many things. If you guys have any questions, I could go into more depth.
What sort of problems did the Hammerheads cause? What are their stats?
Did he have riptides, and what did they do? Were they a threat?
Haha OK. Well I had 2x company commanders, 1x Pask w/battle cannon, las cannon, and plasma cannons, 3x Commissars, 8x squads of infantry, 2x 5 man suicide Scions with plasma guns, 1x Taurox, 1x Chimera, 10x ratlings, mortar heavy weapon squad, and 2 LRBTs with heavy bolters for days.
My buddy used an ethereal, fireblade, 10 pathfinders, 3 squads of fire warriors, 2x 3 man teams of crisis suits, a crisis suit commander, 20x kroot, and Longstrike with hammerhead buddy.
If he was using the rules correctly, Longstrike was helping his buddy hit easier. Hammerheads had more wounds than our tanks and the Railgun is probably the best anti tank gun in the game. That thing was S10 and AP -4. I think it did D6 damage as well. They were brutal. Watch out for rail rifles, those things were nasty! Tanks need to watch out for them. His drones savior protocol is OP, I'd say. So good. But then again, we're still not sure if we're using it right. His fireblade and various drone buffs made his gunline nearly impenetrable. So I just stayed out of range or LoS and went for OBJs. I made him come after me. But once his suits and kroot were gone there was nothing he could do in our jam packed city map. I just had too much stuff for him to kill. Meanwhile every turn mortars were dropping and Las guns were widdling him down. It was super close. It was a blood bath. I only had 1 guardsmen with a commissar and platoon commander on 1 OBJ, 6 guardsmen on another, and mortars and my company commander on a 3rd OBJ. We each had slay the warlord. He had first blood (Tau with first turn, too easy). I think if the game went to turn 6 it would only have been worse for him.
Things I liked:
Pasks plasma cannons dished out more constant fire power than my battle cannons.
Mortars! They are solid, especially with rerolling 1s to hit. And at only 27 pts, they are a steal. I used them on pathfinders, crisis suits to decent effect and absolutely mulched his kroot. They were definitely my MVP. Can you split fire them? That could be good.
Commissars were awesome. They kept my mobile assault guard squads on the advance to get flamers in range and charge objectives.
Scions coming in within rapid fire range exactly where I wanted them was brutal. They even survived a ton of return fire and got to fight a second round.
Ratlings were actually decent until they met burst cannons. But they attracted way more fire power than I anticipated. They were only 50pts, so I consider that a win. He had to waste markerlights on them because their cover save was keeping them alive so well.
Fix Bayonets is crazy legit. You just have to plan out your assaults. A squad of 6 guardsmen took out 12 kroot thanks to it. (The commissar helped though).
Things I didn't like:
LRBTs. Seriously, they killed a drone and maybe a crisis suit and barely scratched a hammerhead. As far as offense, rely on other units to do damage. They were massive fire magnets though and allowed me to psychologically control my opponent, at least until he realized his 2 hammerheads far outclassed them and that my tanks couldn't hit crap. A LRBT with a battle cannon and 3 heavy bolters barely managed to take out an Ethereal out in the open. That's awful.
Things I learned:
More Scions! Even their hotshot lasguns worked on tanks! I wanted to try a 10 man unit with rapid fire hotshots, a sergeant with plasma pistol, and 2 plasma guns to see what they could do against a tank.
More mortar teams!
Spread out your anchor units to prevent anyone from entering your edge. That 9" limit is our Savior since we get so many units to spread out.
Don't forget to fire your characters weapons. I gave my commissars bolt guns and plasma pistols and kept forgetting they were there.
Orders are still pretty solid for mass lasgun fire. I think 2 squads did as much damage to crisis suits at 24" as the missile launchers and plasma guns did in those same units.
Tank commander orders are still pretty lackluster. But I think with 2 tank commanders or pask ordering each other to RE roll 1s would make them way better. Sad it practically requires that though with our shoddy BS on the regular tanks.
I think I'll try more Scions, a Basilisk, more mortars, and some Ogryn/Bullgryn with a priest next. Issue Fix Bayonets to them via platoon commander. I also want to try a Valkyrie out. Anybody try any of these yet?
So the IG can actually go toe to toe with the tau now? This all sounds wonderful, except for the leman russes. I'm saddened that they're still struggling.
Future War Cultist wrote: So the IG can actually go toe to toe with the tau now? This all sounds wonderful, except for the leman russes. I'm saddened that they're still struggling.
I wouldn't say we could go toe to toe. I'd say we can use our mass to dictate their options to allow us to take out their objective grabbing units. Basically he could point and click and that unit goes bye bye unless they're in cover.
Colonel Cross wrote: I wouldn't say we could go toe to toe. I'd say we can use our mass to dictate their options to allow us to take out their objective grabbing units. Basically he could point and click and that unit goes bye bye unless they're in cover.
I guess what I mean is, we actually stand a chance of winning now?
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Thought on platoon commanders. With lots of people taking snipers to deal with buff characters, is it worth taking two platoon commanders instead of one company commander on occasion? You're paying 33% more for a 50% increase in durability (6 wounds vs 4). Two models vs one also means you can spread your orders around a bit easier if you don't want to invest in a vox network.
Obviously doesn't fill HQ requirement, but thems the brakes.
I think it is. What's the maximum amount of hq choices you can have?
Also, I just checked out the rules for smoke launchers...they go from shooting phase to shooting phase. Does the reduced to hit rule affect cc attacks as well? If so, those alpha striking scout sentinels suddenly look even better!
In matched play 1-2k list max is 15 either by 3 brigades or substituting some to supreme command detachment.
Of course platoon commander is elite so that's actually more interesting for platoon commanders. Max there is 24(3 brigades) or using vanguard you can replace brigade for one for 6 rather than 8.
Colonel Cross wrote: I wouldn't say we could go toe to toe. I'd say we can use our mass to dictate their options to allow us to take out their objective grabbing units. Basically he could point and click and that unit goes bye bye unless they're in cover.
I guess what I mean is, we actually stand a chance of winning now?
I'd say so. Although my buddy and I are learning 8th so as we test more games I'll know more. Battle suits are tough nuts to crack now. T5 with 3W and Savior protocol is hard to take down.
Future War Cultist wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot that platoon commanders are elites. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Def not optimal slot for IG from terms of efficiency.
It's not like we're restricted to only 3 Elites tho like the dim and distant past. Now slot management for matched play is a function of managing 3 detachments and the number of CP's desired. It's not like you can realistically run out of slots outside of a very extreme build.
They should be but aren't really, still better units to take in mass than the command, unless you are going for the suicide melta/ flamer option on them. Scions really take the cake for the better troop options along with mass conscripts.
Tanks, capped at 10 guard regulars (Marines can have more than us now XD), Vet Guard, Chimera(?), and PCS don't seem to have the best place as they once did, if any at all. With some armies, expect Turn 1 melee, which will cut down 10 mans before you could say "By the Emperor".
Hate to point it out, and mistakes are natural when everyone is still learning, but I don't think Scions can rapid-fire after Deep striking. You have to deploy them more than 9" away, and I believe Scions hot-shot lasguns are 18" with a 9" rapid fire range.
Which is why I'll be swapping Scion numbers for Hot-Shot Volley Guns.
All in all though a great summary, my mate collects Tau and Nids so I'm paying keen attention to the lesson you've give.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Hate to point it out, and mistakes are natural when everyone is still learning, but I don't think Scions can rapid-fire after Deep striking. You have to deploy them more than 9" away, and I believe Scions hot-shot lasguns are 18" with a 9" rapid fire range.
Which is why I'll be swapping Scion numbers for Hot-Shot Volley Guns.
All in all though a great summary, my mate collects Tau and Nids so I'm paying keen attention to the lesson you've give.
It's the rapid fire with Plasma that peeps are getting excited about. You're correct that the hot-shots don't.
We can technically take more than 10 tanks if we had unlimited points (or just happen to be in a sufficiently high-points game), squadrons are still a thing so we can still stuff 3 vehicles into each HS slot.
Future War Cultist wrote: That's something like that they can allocate wounds to nearby drones or something isn't it? Yeah all that makes them tough.
Are ogyrns and bulgyrns any good now?
They still seem way overpriced for what you are getting, but they are certainly better then they used to be. What that being said, I feel like one of the strengts they had before was to pair them with a priest, which you cannot do any longer.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Hate to point it out, and mistakes are natural when everyone is still learning, but I don't think Scions can rapid-fire after Deep striking. You have to deploy them more than 9" away, and I believe Scions hot-shot lasguns are 18" with a 9" rapid fire range.
Which is why I'll be swapping Scion numbers for Hot-Shot Volley Guns.
All in all though a great summary, my mate collects Tau and Nids so I'm paying keen attention to the lesson you've give.
It's the rapid fire with Plasma that peeps are getting excited about. You're correct that the hot-shots don't.
Yeah, I only rapid fired the plasma guns that turn. But they survived, thanks to cover, and moved up the next turn.
FunJohn wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote: That's something like that they can allocate wounds to nearby drones or something isn't it? Yeah all that makes them tough.
Are ogyrns and bulgyrns any good now?
They still seem way overpriced for what you are getting, but they are certainly better then they used to be. What that being said, I feel like one of the strengts they had before was to pair them with a priest, which you cannot do any longer.
Why would you not be able to use priests with them? They count as Astra Militarum Infantry, don't they?
Doctoralex wrote:I've heard people saying that Pask cant give orders to himself, but I thought it specifically said that Pask CAN order Leman Russ Characters?
I also found that odd as I'm unaware of any other Cadian Tank Commanders.
Doctoralex wrote:I've heard people saying that Pask cant give orders to himself, but I thought it specifically said that Pask CAN order Leman Russ Characters?
I also found that odd as I'm unaware of any other Cadian Tank Commanders.
Pask can give orders to otherCadian Leman Russ Characters. As it says other, that doesn't include himself. Also, he can only order tank commanders who use the Cadian regimental keyword.
Why are people complaining that platoon Commanders are elites and not HQ? In 7th edition platoon commanders were TROOPS, so this is actually a promotion.
IronJack wrote: Why are people complaining that platoon Commanders are elites and not HQ? In 7th edition platoon commanders were TROOPS, so this is actually a promotion.
Because now they compete with their own command squads, commissars, and any specialists you'd want to take, and will be always outnumbered by their commanding officers when the opposite should be the case.
It also makes it impossible to field a realistic platoon-sized detachment.
IronJack wrote: Why are people complaining that platoon Commanders are elites and not HQ? In 7th edition platoon commanders were TROOPS, so this is actually a promotion.
Because now they compete with their own command squads, commissars, and any specialists you'd want to take, and will be always outnumbered by their commanding officers when the opposite should be the case.
It also makes it impossible to field a realistic platoon-sized detachment.
This. I just feel like they missed an opportunity here.
For a brigade platoon; a company commander with no platoon commander, or a lord commissar and platoon commander makes the brigade detachment a Platoon detachment.
The company-as-platoon commander fits with the lack of combined infantry squads; granting the extra order. A Company Commander doesn't have that much better of a stat-line(+1 w and ld; along with second order), so it is not like there is that much of a difference. I am, in fact, rather surprised that there even are 2 different commanders.
Kommissar Kel wrote: I am, in fact, rather surprised that there even are 2 different commanders.
I would also have found this to be acceptable. In fact, I think this is probably how I'm going to have to fluff it until they rearrange the command structure: all commanders use the company commander statline, whatever their rank.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly I would be fine with PCs being troops too since I always have plenty of troops slots with the new detachment system.
But they are commanders, so HQ really makes more sense, and being able to use them as a 20-point HQ tax would be very useful.
Yep. Platoon command squads should be troops and limited to one squad per platoon commander. Problem solved. But GW wants to hold some stuff back so we have to buy the codex (similar thing with faction specific stratagems and artifacts)
They still seem way overpriced for what you are getting, but they are certainly better then they used to be. What that being said, I feel like one of the strengts they had before was to pair them with a priest, which you cannot do any longer.
Why would you not be able to use priests with them? They count as Astra Militarum Infantry, don't they?
They are. Priests work. On the charge you can get 5 attacks per guy.
I kinda like how Platoon and Company command squads have been merged together into one unit. Could other units be merged together? Infantry and Conscript squads, and Veteran and Special Weapon squads?
Also, how well does a Battle Cannon perform? Since it still needs to roll to hit, I don't see it being too reliable. Maybe it should take a leaf out of the Earthshaker Cannon's book and roll 2D6 and pick the highest?
I was more than underwhelmed with the performance of the battle tanks offensive performance. I feel like if you run Pask and a Tank Commander side by side to allow each other to Reroll 1s and use non cannon turret weapons, they would be useful. But, a battle cannon COULD be useful if you are willing to use a strategem to reroll your number of shots.
I was comparing Longstrike and a fellow hammerhead against a Pask and fellow tank. Both points and effectiveness go to Tau and all we have is +1 toughness over them. That's disappointing
Kommissar Kel wrote: I am, in fact, rather surprised that there even are 2 different commanders.
I would also have found this to be acceptable. In fact, I think this is probably how I'm going to have to fluff it until they rearrange the command structure: all commanders use the company commander statline, whatever their rank.
Which is not at all unreasonable. It makes no real sense for a Colonel to always be a better fighter than a plucky Lieutenant, unless we are talking about a grizzled veteran regiment.
Future War Cultist wrote: I kinda like how Platoon and Company command squads have been merged together into one unit. Could other units be merged together? Infantry and Conscript squads, and Veteran and Special Weapon squads?
Also, how well does a Battle Cannon perform? Since it still needs to roll to hit, I don't see it being too reliable. Maybe it should take a leaf out of the Earthshaker Cannon's book and roll 2D6 and pick the highest?
Absolute garbage.
I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.
Leeman Russes can tie things up in close combat now.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Which is not at all unreasonable. It makes no real sense for a Colonel to always be a better fighter than a plucky Lieutenant, unless we are talking about a grizzled veteran regiment.
Guardsmen, you have been found guilty of contravening Art. IG 3645/67k: Disrespect Towards an Officer. Any soldier who behaves himself with disrespect - in word or action - to an officer or anyone of higher rank will be shot.
Reason: Implying that a superior rank is of lower martial skill than a subordinate.
May The Emperor have mercy on your soul.
###Thought for the day: An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.###
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.
Leeman Russes can tie things up in close combat now.
So there's that.
Yeah, there's that. [sarcasm]Woo![/sarcasm]
It's not like Conscripts are a better and cheaper tarpit.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.
Leeman Russes can tie things up in close combat now.
So there's that.
Yeah, there's that. [sarcasm]Woo![/sarcasm]
It's not like Conscripts are a better and cheaper tarpit.
So, no matter the points, what is the best turret against the most targets?
might insist you model on the medi-pack to truly represent 
That'd minimum 9 
