I was watching Trekyard's review and they were talking about the bodycount of New Trek.
They've got a point.
Sure, people died in previous versions, but they were nearly always just Redshirts and mooks. Sure, obstacles could been overcome far more quickly with liberal phaser use on setting 8, but it didn't go that way. People talked, negotiated and reasoned their way through the problem.
Nowadays, people just get a phaser (or sword) for being in the way. It's all a bit Altered Carbon, which is cool and all, just not particularly Trekky.
Chillreaper wrote: I was watching Trekyard's review and they were talking about the bodycount of New Trek.
They've got a point.
Sure, people died in previous versions, but they were nearly always just Redshirts and mooks. Sure, obstacles could been overcome far more quickly with liberal phaser use on setting 8, but it didn't go that way. People talked, negotiated and reasoned their way through the problem.
Nowadays, people just get a phaser (or sword) for being in the way. It's all a bit Altered Carbon, which is cool and all, just not particularly Trekky.
I think they’re going with a bit of a “fall of Rome” thing, with the collapse of the Romulan Empire and the Mars disaster having seriously (perhaps critically) destabilised the Federation.
Jeri Ryan was great and looks great too - interesting story and definatly would enjoy reading/ watching more of her as a vigilante - especially enjoyed her
Spoiler:
going back to take our her crime boss Ex who had betrayed her
Agreed the story is meandering along and in tone seems like a cross between original series and DS9 - its certainly better than 2nd season of Discovery IMO.
The violence is on par with OS as well - especially the films.
In tersm of the big plot -
Spoiler:
I assume Star Fleet Intelligence and Tal Shair are trying to stop the Borg or some other super machine inteligence being formed in the hsape of the simulants, but as its still Star Trek at heart I assume she will be redeemed and not destory the glaalxy etc.
Chillreaper wrote: I was watching Trekyard's review and they were talking about the bodycount of New Trek.
They've got a point.
Sure, people died in previous versions, but they were nearly always just Redshirts and mooks. Sure, obstacles could been overcome far more quickly with liberal phaser use on setting 8, but it didn't go that way. People talked, negotiated and reasoned their way through the problem.
Nowadays, people just get a phaser (or sword) for being in the way. It's all a bit Altered Carbon, which is cool and all, just not particularly Trekky.
I think they’re going with a bit of a “fall of Rome” thing, with the collapse of the Romulan Empire and the Mars disaster having seriously (perhaps critically) destabilised the Federation.
I get the impression that the Federation is doing alright, just not along the cold-war style boarder with the Romulans, which they've basically abandoned. I don't get a sense that the Federation itself is as yet under threat nor even that its destabilised to any great degree. If anything its just given the whole incident the massive cold shoulder and moved on with itself. Abandoning the Neutral Zone worlds mostly to the Rangers and not much else; whilst also leaving the Romulans to sort their own situation out. We've not really seen nor heard of any other major problems in the Federation, remembering that this is a good decade and a half after the Dominion War.
If anything is under threat its the ideals of the Federation rather than the Federation as a functional political power body.
The Dominion War challenged the Federation with its first major interstellar conflict on a large scale. The Borg were similar, but thus far every incursion we've seen of them is a bit like Tyranid Hive Fleets - a single massive Cube or smaller single ships striking into worlds. Rather than multiple cubes hitting on multiple fronts. Meanwhile most other war situations were often overcome through diplomacy or through a single show of force. Furthermore against all those odds the Federation rose up and managed to win. We might also assume that after the events of the Dominion War and Voyagers adventures, the Federation might have more capable military ships now than it had in the past. Remembering that the Defiant, whilst a powerful warship, was still a very small craft and that the Nemesis film really did show how their larger ships are very under-prepared for an actual opposing army that builds an actual warship. Whilst we've not seen it, the Federation could have warships at the ready now.
The Romulan disaster appears to have challenged the Federation with its first major interstellar humanitarian project and by all accounts they've failed to achieve their full potential. Both in the initial run and in the fallout of the event.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that saw an extra bit of subtext tension going on there...
Although, more logically, Chakotay being a senior, or Founding member of the Fenrisian Rangers definitely seems like a thing that could have happened...
Are any of those even close to being on the same scale as evacuating an entire solar system (the home system of a major interstellar empire) before a supernova? As Overread stated in the full text you cut short, the Federation ultimately failed in this endeavour. And when put to the test, they failed it morally, as well.
It’s too much of a pain to do a proper quote on the iPad, but this is what I was thinking about:
“If anything is under threat its the ideals of the Federation rather than the Federation as a functional political power body.”
If the Federation abandons it’s ideals, then it isn’t the Federation anymore, just another two-bit empire. They’ve abandoned hundreds of worlds to lawlessness and vigilante rule, they’ve got former senior Starfleet officers living in drug-laced poverty on Earth and they are turning a blind eye to, if not actively supporting, a foreign power’s black-ops kill team on Earth.
Federation’s got problems man.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I would watch the hell out of a Jeri Ryan fronted “Rangers of Fenris” series...
The thing is, how completely different is that from what they did in the Cardassian Demilitarised Zone that caused the rise of the Maquis?
I think the 'ideals' argument is the right one. Hopefully they'll show some more hints that the Federation still has then and there being frustrated by the Not so secretly evil bad guys though.
The Maquis were a much smaller band of rebels on a handful of worlds that weren't densely populated. By and large they were early colonists who left the Federation; colonised worlds and then came under threat from the Cardassians. Basically operating outside of Federation space and in a political situation where there was friction with Cardassia.
The Federation has never really been a military might of the kind to "police space" outside of its own boarders. They've never gone for a more overt attack and defend policy. In many ways this saved them because it meant that they could hold boarders against races like the Romulans and Cardassians without as much threat of invasion. Hostile as those races were, the Federation wasn't "pushing" that hostility.
The Romulan disaster is a whole different matter. Here the prime hostile race reached out for help; furthermore the fallout from the supernova has left them crippled. With the Romulans pulling back and the Federation doing so at the same time; both have left the old Neutral Zone. Federation has some presence in the Rangers, but clearly not enough to hold law and order. In short its a corner they've abandoned which eats at the very morals and ideals upon which the Federation has prided itself; built itself and also "marketed" to the other races.
Compel wrote: The thing is, how completely different is that from what they did in the Cardassian Demilitarised Zone that caused the rise of the Maquis?
I think the 'ideals' argument is the right one. Hopefully they'll show some more hints that the Federation still has then and there being frustrated by the Not so secretly evil bad guys though.
In some ways I think that’s the tipping point that started the Federation down this path; once you get used to the idea of sacrificing your high ideals for real politik, you’re going to keep edging further away from that idealism.
I also remember a certain legendary' captains initial reponse to the Praxis disaster - "let them die" - its a human repsonse, and for all the token aliens on screen the Federation hads always been a human institution.
Compel wrote: The thing is, how completely different is that from what they did in the Cardassian Demilitarised Zone that caused the rise of the Maquis?
I think the 'ideals' argument is the right one. Hopefully they'll show some more hints that the Federation still has then and there being frustrated by the Not so secretly evil bad guys though.
In some ways I think that’s the tipping point that started the Federation down this path; once you get used to the idea of sacrificing your high ideals for real politik, you’re going to keep edging further away from that idealism.
We’re also only really seeing high end Federation/Starfleet politics, rather than shipboard. So the attitudes encountered might’ve been there all along?
Are any of those even close to being on the same scale as evacuating an entire solar system (the home system of a major interstellar empire) before a supernova?
As Overread stated in the full text you cut short, the Federation ultimately failed in this endeavour. And when put to the test, they failed it morally, as well.
Yeah, but they only reason they failed in either regard is because the premise of this show is Sir Patrick Stewart's hubris is required to save us all from the grimderp he added to a setting of hope and optimism.
Quibbling over what counts as a 'major project' is missing the point.
The Federation has been dying of internal rot since TNG.
When Starfleet had been infiltrated by alien worm-things.
Then more than a few "questionable" decisions made during the Dominion war (We can only win by committing genocide on the other side - the changeling virus).
Then the dodgy-brothers dealings in Insurrection (sell out the inhabitants of fountain-of-youth planet ).
Wouldn't it be nice if at the end of Picard we find out that it was the alien worm-things all along that were still there and causing the Federation's internal rot?
Now we're talking. First half of season one is slow, scene setting and possibly getting to care about the odd character; second half is things happening.
To be fair, it worked on me, because I actually did care about what was going to happen to a couple of them right at the end.
It's like the Fellowship of the Ring - even more so in book form. If you base your view of Lord of the Rings based on its slow start you miss all that it sets up.
Overread wrote: It's like the Fellowship of the Ring - even more so in book form. If you base your view of Lord of the Rings based on its slow start you miss all that it sets up.
I haven’t read those books (crucify me later).
But film wise? Yes.
Now, if the mods could allow me a very small swear?
What a delight it was to see Picard still full of piss and vinegar toward The Borg.....
Doubly so when he met Hugh and began to reassess his values,
That? That is the Picard I know and love. A man of prejudice, as we all are, but with a mind open enough to be proven wrong. Would that our entire species, regardless of political preference could be so wise,
Overread wrote: It's like the Fellowship of the Ring - even more so in book form. If you base your view of Lord of the Rings based on its slow start you miss all that it sets up.
I haven’t read those books (crucify me later).
No no I think the time is now!! Clearly you've managed to avoid your punishment for far too long!!
Still you could redeem yourself! You can start with The Hobbit - heck if I recall right you could even make a double start and read the story with/to the sproglet that I recall you mentioning. Along with exposing to proper 80-90s cartoons its a duty to make sure that the foundation of so much fantasy is revealed to them as well!
Plus you could get one of those fancy illustrated editions of the books
I “can’t wait” for Barclay’s doubtlessly-inevitable graphic rape scene. But is he victim or perpetrator? Stay tuned to find out. Star Trek!
Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Now I have seen footage of it. Icheb gets tortured and mutilated, and has to be mercy-killed by Seven. This motivates her to become a vigilante, killing his torturers, and Picard turns a blind eye. If you don’t see why this is a problem for a Star Trek show, I don’t know what to tell you.
Overread wrote: It's like the Fellowship of the Ring - even more so in book form. If you base your view of Lord of the Rings based on its slow start you miss all that it sets up.
I haven’t read those books (crucify me later).
No no I think the time is now!! Clearly you've managed to avoid your punishment for far too long!!
Still you could redeem yourself! You can start with The Hobbit - heck if I recall right you could even make a double start and read the story with/to the sproglet that I recall you mentioning. Along with exposing to proper 80-90s cartoons its a duty to make sure that the foundation of so much fantasy is revealed to them as well!
Plus you could get one of those fancy illustrated editions of the books
Solid thought is solid,
My first pressie for her first birthday was a hardbacked encyclopaedia of Fairies,
It’s both fantastical and factual at the same time, Every entry has the folklore, but also the possible real world basis.
I’ll focus on the former, for now, because I’m quite sure shattering childhood illusions when she’s this wee is a dick move even Pierec’d Moron wouldn’t pull?
I “can’t wait” for Barclay’s doubtlessly-inevitable graphic rape scene. But is he victim or perpetrator? Stay tuned to find out. Star Trek!
Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Now I have seen footage of it. Icheb gets tortured and mutilated, and has to be mercy-killed by Seven. This motivates her to become a vigilante, killing his torturers, and Picard turns a blind eye. If you don’t see why this is a problem for a Star Trek show, I don’t know what to tell you.
Ah. That makes more sense. Your original post was a bit vague in which direction your reaction was heading.
But feeling that torture porn and Seven as The Punisher is wrong for Star Trek is perfectly understandable.
I “can’t wait” for Barclay’s doubtlessly-inevitable graphic rape scene. But is he victim or perpetrator? Stay tuned to find out. Star Trek!
Yeah I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Now I have seen footage of it. Icheb gets tortured and mutilated, and has to be mercy-killed by Seven. This motivates her to become a vigilante, killing his torturers, and Picard turns a blind eye. If you don’t see why this is a problem for a Star Trek show, I don’t know what to tell you.
Factually. Inaccurate,
Jean-Luc, to date, knows nothing of Icheb’s fate.
Episode six mentions former Borg facing prejudice, and given Jean-Luc’s experience with them, we see both sides of the coin.
Could you, maybe, perhaps, and I get I’m being totes rads here.....actually watch the show before you decide to whine about it?
He doesn't need to know Icheb's fate to know that Seven isnt beaming down to the planet for flowers and cookies after specifically asking for phaser rifles, and making it very clear how she feels about Evil Lady.
Picard is totally turning a blind eye to what he has to at least suspect is about to go down.
That he does it without knowing about Icheb actually makes it worse.
so episode 6 has come and is easily the best episode to date. it really addresses something that had always annoyed me TNG hadn't (the long term psychalogical damage his assimilation did to Picard. it's CLEAR he's still struggling with PTSD even 40 years later) good episode over all. really felt good and we begin to see some plot points that where long slow boiling being brought to head
He might have thought it could go either way and that either way he couldn't stop Seven. Don't forget he knows of her more through reputation and perhaps a meeting here and there rather than any built up relationship between them. He has no authority and cannot command her to stay and part of his "grand speeches" aspect has been kicked out from under him through old age and being "left behind" by the world he once knew because he stepped out of it. Plus getting verbally put down by Starfleet and then physically put down by Romulan citizens (and former politician).
Gah clifhangers So ep6 was really good IMO, but a few musings...
Spoiler:
Has no one checked with the EMH, or did Dr. Agnes fiddle with its memory banks?
What is the point of Elnor? Picards link to the Romulan refugees was already established and could have been expanded by keeping Laris and Zhaban around. And this episodes heroic sacrifice(no doubt so he can be rescued later) would have worked just as well, if not better with just Hugh.
In the wrong hands that Borg gateway would be very bad news. I'm guessing the rendezvous planet it sends them to is where the Rikers are living?
So...I think I like the show but that’s because I like dark political thrillers but I’m not sure who this show is for. It’s supposed to be for die hard TNG fans and I’ve talked to a few and they don’t seem to be liking it. It’s just so not TNG. To quote one “why does Star Trek always have to be about a Dark Conspiracy now”. Once you hear that you realize it’s true. Why is this like that? Like if you want that kind of stuff do it in Discovery. A show called Star Trek Picard...should really feel like Star Trek. It should appeal to the fans who became fans because of the TNG era. Some people on the internet like to dump on that era but that Trek does have millions of fans and this show should be a tribute to them. Instead they will have to continue to get their Trek fix from The Orville I guess...
We're enough years removed from the TNG era that people often forget the details, and instead remember their general impressions of the show. Sure, there were "dark conspiracies" in TNG, but they weren't a common theme of the show so many people don't really remember them specifically.
But saying that makes the show equivalent is like saying Reeves Superman also killed Zod, so Superman 2 and Man of Steel are the same in tone and theme.
Was wondering when the Romulan Assassin was going to do anything!
Spoiler:
So the whole dodgy sister keeping touching her brother up in a sexual manner is very odd for Trek - did GRM help with the writing?
Some of the sub plots are a little dull - the raffi son in particular.
The Picard PTSD is good.
They needed to give the Assassin more to do in previous episodes- I do like their total bluntness.
I wondered about the EMH as well
Needs more Jeri Ryan though!
In terms of who does it appeal to - its farily normal Sci-fi - ie my Mother enjoys it but she likes both scifi- and violence - especially if its women kicking ass and she is not a trekie!
So I pretty much accepted this was Star Trek for people who don't like Star Trek after the first couple of episodes, and haven't been watching further.
Then I read about this whole Icheb thing. I mean, people getting their eyeballs slowly torn out in full closeup is a bit gratuitous on its own merits, but it was doubly depressing since Icheb was a cool character and gruesomely snuffing him to provide an excuse to turn Seven into a murder-happy vigilante is, to me, pretty uncool.
But the idea being floated that the whole thing was some kind of pseudo-revenge on the part of the STD writer's room because the actor who played Icheb 20-odd years ago said some mean things about the Rapp/Spacey situation on the twitters...crikey. Like, I'm not aware anyone involved has actually said that was their motivation, but given previous behaviour associated with STD cast & crew it's disturbingly believable. And if that did have something to do with it, these guys are genuinely sick in the head.
I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.
Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.
Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.
Yep and I was kinda hoping we would get to revisit some of those Voyager and DS9 characters even in passing, what they did to Icheb just stinks of pure spite to me and I have to agree that this is star trek for people who do not like star trek or even get what star trek is, basically its JJ trek 2.0.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.
Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.
Yep and I was kinda hoping we would get to revisit some of those Voyager and DS9 characters even in passing, what they did to Icheb just stinks of pure spite to me and I have to agree that this is star trek for people who do not like star trek or even get what star trek is, basically its JJ trek 2.0.
Star Trek has taken many forms - Next Gen is incredably different to Original Series - DS9 is different again as are the new films and Discovery.
They are all Trek - just different.
I have watched them all - Tbh I did not/do not remember Icheb and only vaguely remember Hugh....it seems more akin to DS9 than say Discovery was with killing more like OS (especially the films) but then I found Next Gen very Meh.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I personally doubt that was the reason. I suspect the show runners were going for maximum edge and Kirsten Breyer (who writes the Voyager Full Circle novels) reminded the wrong writer that Icheb was a child who looked up to Seven. I can easily see some writer high on Coke with visions of TWD or GoT most notorious moments thinking this was a great idea. Because pretentious hacks think the truest form of drama is torturing beloved characters.
Was Icheb one of those three kids from the abandoned cube? I totally forgot about them until you mentioned child just now and I’ve been wondering this whole time why we cared so much about that one particular FB.
Yep and I was kinda hoping we would get to revisit some of those Voyager and DS9 characters even in passing, what they did to Icheb just stinks of pure spite to me and I have to agree that this is star trek for people who do not like star trek or even get what star trek is, basically its JJ trek 2.0.
Star Trek has taken many forms - Next Gen is incredably different to Original Series - DS9 is different again as are the new films and Discovery.
They are all Trek - just different.
I have watched them all - Tbh I did not/do not remember Icheb and only vaguely remember Hugh....it seems more akin to DS9 than say Discovery was with killing more like OS (especially the films) but then I found Next Gen very Meh.
No mate, they all have the Trek brand, they are not all Trek when looked at with a critical eye.
Regardless of their differences TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT, even DS9(which I've expounded on at length before so will not again) all share some core qualities that are simply absent in the Kurtzmantrek shows - they all depict a fundamentally optimistic future for humanity, one where we have overcome or are well on the way to overcoming not just the social problems of history and modernity, but the limitations and foibles of our own psychology. They depict an enlightened future, one where humanity has genuinely surpassed its present self.
In Kurtzmantrek, humanity(and seemingly every other species seen so far) are by turns narrowminded, violent, bigoted, and angry; institutions lack empathy and throw their humanitarian spirit out the window at the first sign of adversity, and we're shown that poverty and classism and other social ills have returned for no apparent reason; individual characters behave radically differently to their previous selves(witness Picard, the consummate diplomat, blunder smugly into a Romulan refugee bar and start an argument with its patrons over a sign, either just because he could, or because was trying to bait a ninja assassin into helping him and getting someone beheaded as a result; yuh-huh, yup, sure - Star Trek baby); heck, the basic concept of the Picard show, its inciting incident, depends entirely on the writers completely ignoring the clear trajectory of the story of artificial life from Measure of a Man through Quality of Life and basically every episode of Voyager that focused on the Doctor, in which time & again the sentience and value of artificial life is affirmed and the clear impression the viewer is meant to take is that the Federation is on the way to remedying its flawed attitudes towards synthetic intelligences.
This is a show created by people who watched Picard's speech in Measure of a Man and thought to themselves "a robot slave race? KEWL BRUH!!!11 and they could like rebel and pewpewPHASOR people and stuff and there could be like Borg involved cos cyborgs and androids are basically the same yeah and OMG Seven could be in it and dual-wield phaser rifles and gak bruuuuuuuh this is awesome!!!1". They can claim it's Star Trek. You can choose to think of it as Star Trek. But when it shares essentially nothing tonally or thematically with prior Trek and explicitly ignores established elements of the franchise from the small("colourful metaphors" abound) to the huge(the Federation are selfish arseholes and Starfleet apparently now consists exclusively of morons, Section 31 operatives, Synth infiltrators, and Romulan spies), I can't view it as Trek in anything but name and I think I'm entirely justified in that position.
But what about the movies where Starfleet has several times made bad choices? Heck in one there's a cell looking to go to war with the Klingon Empire; whilst in another they are looking to steal eternal life from a race.
Starfleet has always had a human side that isn't perfect, it just rarely came through save in the films or in episodes where the (esp in the pre DS9 era) highly episodic structure typically meant any challenge had to be resolved very fast.
Drugs, poverty and such we got a taste of in DS9 even down to weapons trading and the like. Whilst not considered rife within the Federation, they were certainly elements within the galactic community here and there.
As for class that's sort of always been there in the background. We've always known that captains and higher ranks do live better and have more options than lower ranks. It's just that lower ranks don't live a bad life and there is considerable social mobility within the system. Heck I'd argue there's less of a class system and more of a simple have and have-not system. Anyone has potential to rise to the high ranks, but not everyone will; and those that do, do get it better off. However there's clearly national health, social programs, free education etc.... So if you're not at the top end you're not living all that badly. Ergo there's no real poverty within the Federation (remember the Romulan world we saw was in the mostly abandoned Neutral Zone - ergo not Federation).
This series is simply taking challenges that we saw the Federation overcome before and instead of overcoming them in one sitting we are setting a longer term evolution of matters in a steadier pace. Heck we aren't even near resolutions and still in the phase of working out what is going on.
I think there's enough hints that the optimistic Federation is still there and I do have hope that everyone will pull through in the end.
But I can completely understand that fear and concern that they are just nuBSG-ing Star Trek. I completely get it.
But I do feel it's too early to judge Picard for it. - I think the end of the season may be the deciding point for it, maybe.
Even then, DS9 had the Federation completely on board with Section 31's "Genocide the Founders" plan, right up until the last few episodes of the final season.
Well said Yodhrin. You forgot about mention all the dark conspiracies though. Like each person has their own secret agenda...a darkly conspiratorial one...
No mate, they all have the Trek brand, they are not all Trek when looked at with a critical eye.
Well thats your opinion, they are versions of the same thing - I would argue Next gen was a huge departure from OS.
Regardless of their differences TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT, even DS9(which I've expounded on at length before so will not again) all share some core qualities that are simply absent in the Kurtzmantrek shows - they all depict a fundamentally optimistic future for humanity, one where we have overcome or are well on the way to overcoming not just the social problems of history and modernity, but the limitations and foibles of our own psychology. They depict an enlightened future, one where humanity has genuinely surpassed its present self.
Which is EXACTLY what is shown in the images of everyone else in the Federation - happy, relateivly carefree people living in a clean, free society where pretty much all their needs are taken care of. What Picard has focussed on is the fringes and the background darker world that keeps everyone else happy.
Its like looking at the actual utopia of the Culture and saying no its adark and oppressive because of Special Circumstances and what they do, which is obviously nonsense.
In Kurtzmantrek, humanity(and seemingly every other species seen so far) are by turns narrowminded, violent, bigoted, and angry; institutions lack empathy and throw their humanitarian spirit out the window at the first sign of adversity, and we're shown that poverty and classism and other social ills have returned for no apparent reason; individual characters behave radically differently to their previous selves(witness Picard, the consummate diplomat, blunder smugly into a Romulan refugee bar and start an argument with its patrons over a sign, either just because he could, or because was trying to bait a ninja assassin into helping him and getting someone beheaded as a result; yuh-huh, yup, sure - Star Trek baby); heck, the basic concept of the Picard show, its inciting incident, depends entirely on the writers completely ignoring the clear trajectory of the story of artificial life from Measure of a Man through Quality of Life and basically every episode of Voyager that focused on the Doctor, in which time & again the sentience and value of artificial life is affirmed and the clear impression the viewer is meant to take is that the Federation is on the way to remedying its flawed attitudes towards synthetic intelligences.
No we are being shown the dark spot as a direct contrast to the bight shiny future that almost eveyone in the Federation enjoys.
This is a show created by people who watched Picard's speech in Measure of a Man and thought to themselves "a robot slave race? KEWL BRUH!!!11 and they could like rebel and pewpewPHASOR people and stuff and there could be like Borg involved cos cyborgs and androids are basically the same yeah and OMG Seven could be in it and dual-wield phaser rifles and gak bruuuuuuuh this is awesome!!!1". They can claim it's Star Trek. You can choose to think of it as Star Trek. But when it shares essentially nothing tonally or thematically with prior Trek and explicitly ignores established elements of the franchise from the small("colourful metaphors" abound) to the huge(the Federation are selfish arseholes and Starfleet apparently now consists exclusively of morons, Section 31 operatives, Synth infiltrators, and Romulan spies), I can't view it as Trek in anything but name and I think I'm entirely justified in that position.
Your opinion is as valid as mine - does not mean either of us are right. Spies and inflitrators have been in EVERY Trek series, the films both OS and original have explored many of these themes.
You do recall the Klingon/Federation consiracy and the whole plot of Undiscovered Country right? Where Kirk says "let them die" about the entire Kiling race after they killed his son...the plot is not that dissimilar.
Think of it like this - we know of fringe groups like the Marquis; that Ferangi trade guns (there have to be conflicts for them to trade weapons and profit); that gambling is a thing along with narcotics and such. Odo wasn't just a figurehead he was a police and security chief on a station basically on the rim of the Federation and there was more than enough crime even in the Federations newest Utopia.
The difference is that this series is focusing on a bigger event than Quarks latest scam. It's not over in a week and its got long lasting impacts. It's like focusing on the Marquie for a whole season as opposed to one or two episodes.
It's just like how the Dominion War wasn't the only war in Star Trek; it's just one that was big enough to dominate several seasons and result in huge changes and battles. This series much the same; its a bigger impact.
It doesn't take away from the Utopia; its looking at the practicalities, weaknesses; gaps and what is needed to protect and defend it. The struggle to maintain order and safety and equal rights.
I've also proposed the view that artificial life gets some pushback against it because whilst the Federation might not have money and consumerism as we understand it; people certainly do have jobs. These jobs are clearly a passion for many - even in lower tier jobs like repair work you've got legions of O'Brian's who are skilled and who want to work in that role. Indeed their role in life defines a big part of them. Without it you can end up with people like Scotty when he was rescued by the TNG crew. Suddenly finding himself without any required skills he had no purpose.
People in the Federation clearly draw great purpose from their jobs and clearly invest themselves heavily into them. Losing that purpose; focus and losing their progress hits them hard. In fact hard enough that when it rarely happens in a big way it can knock them off the rails into the fringe. Even though they've got loads of social security there's clearly a powerful self identity issue sitting there.
If living machines were to replace the living what purpose; reason; drive; ideals do the living have left when a machine - when a DATA - can do them all faster, better and without a break and also be just as happy to perform all those tasks?
The Prime Directive has always had a bit of a "them and us" line in it in so far as it separates the advanced from the primitive. The ideal being that the Federation basically follows the Vulcan viewpoint of not to interfere with other races until they show a comparable level of technology, which typically is supposed to appear at Warp Drive.
Of course breaking and bending the Prime Directive is a mandated requirement for all Starfleet captains (or at least all the ones the TV series follow).
That said the Romulans are very much not under Prime Directive protection, they are an "us" group not a "them" group. So getting involved makes sense.
Overread wrote: The Prime Directive has always had a bit of a "them and us" line in it in so far as it separates the advanced from the primitive. The ideal being that the Federation basically follows the Vulcan viewpoint of not to interfere with other races until they show a comparable level of technology, which typically is supposed to appear at Warp Drive.
Of course breaking and bending the Prime Directive is a mandated requirement for all Starfleet captains (or at least all the ones the TV series follow).
That said the Romulans are very much not under Prime Directive protection, they are an "us" group not a "them" group. So getting involved makes sense.
Actually, a better way "to get involved" would have been "acquisition." Doing nothing is only second best. The Klingons have it right, we're in it for the species people!
"Always burn the bridges behind you. You never know who's following"
-Garak the Tailor.
Sucks about Hugh. Although I'm guessing Elnor calling the Rangers is foreshadowing him and Seven turning up with a load of ex Borg to save Picard later on.
Oh's mind meld is interesting in regards to the "secret" about syths and her knowledge/experience of it. I'm thinking its either time travel related, where she's a refugee from Treks take on the Terminator(and the Zhat Vash were founded be people who travelled further back). Or its some kind of passed down memory from ancient Vulcan history about a syth uprising.
Sucks about Hugh. Although I'm guessing Elnor calling the Rangers is foreshadowing him and Seven turning up with a load of ex Borg to save Picard later on.
Oh's mind meld is interesting in regards to the "secret" about syths and her knowledge/experience of it. I'm thinking its either time travel related, where she's a refugee from Treks take on the Terminator(and the Zhat Vash were founded be people who travelled further back). Or its some kind of passed down memory from ancient Vulcan history about a syth uprising.
So lore question, can Romulans mind meld? I don’t recall ever seeing it, but they are supposed to be related to the Vulcans. Or is it another product of Vulcan logic discipline?
Sucks about Hugh. Although I'm guessing Elnor calling the Rangers is foreshadowing him and Seven turning up with a load of ex Borg to save Picard later on.
Oh's mind meld is interesting in regards to the "secret" about syths and her knowledge/experience of it. I'm thinking its either time travel related, where she's a refugee from Treks take on the Terminator(and the Zhat Vash were founded be people who travelled further back). Or its some kind of passed down memory from ancient Vulcan history about a syth uprising.
So lore question, can Romulans mind meld? I don’t recall ever seeing it, but they are supposed to be related to the Vulcans. Or is it another product of Vulcan logic discipline?
A quick google search tells me no, Romulans can’t mind meld. They killed all their telepaths when they split off.
There has not ben a suggestion that the Commodore is not pure Vulcan - in fact the deeply dodgy sister says she is a ally and not a member of thier organisaition.
The previews for next week suggest we'll get to learn what the super mind blowing secret is. I admit, I'm very curious.
Anyway, since Picard is also an xB, I wonder if he'll also do the thing Hugh said needed to be done.
Spoiler:
I know the previews seem to show 7 interfacing with the cube, but I wonder if Picard will also do so, maybe even to save her. Perhaps whatever he learns in the process will be the reason for his ongoing adventure in Season 2.
Sucks about Hugh. Although I'm guessing Elnor calling the Rangers is foreshadowing him and Seven turning up with a load of ex Borg to save Picard later on.
Oh's mind meld is interesting in regards to the "secret" about syths and her knowledge/experience of it. I'm thinking its either time travel related, where she's a refugee from Treks take on the Terminator(and the Zhat Vash were founded be people who travelled further back). Or its some kind of passed down memory from ancient Vulcan history about a syth uprising.
So lore question, can Romulans mind meld? I don’t recall ever seeing it, but they are supposed to be related to the Vulcans. Or is it another product of Vulcan logic discipline?
A quick google search tells me no, Romulans can’t mind meld. They killed all their telepaths when they split off.
I don't think that's alpha level canon though, so it could well be they can mind meld. although given how intsenly private (translatrion: secretive) romulans are it's certainly not a normal thing
I rather liked that they used just a simple, throw-away line to explain it away as just being a regional difference in the race, just like how humans have different skin colors, eye shapes, etc.
And as we've seen in the movies, the Vulcanoids have more than one skin colour and eye-shape (there were Asiatic looking vulcans in ST3, as well as darker skinned ones and the European/Caucasian looking ones).
There'd be ear size and shape differences, eye shape differences, skin colour, other minor skeletal differences (ridges or not. Even human brow ridges vary across the planet).
I've been getting mass effect vibes from this stuff for some time. Not just in writing but in aesthetics. The actual look of the show to me is much more in line with an off shoot of mass effect, including the ship design they've been flying around in. That psycho romulan chick is kinda hot though.
Thargrim wrote: I've been getting mass effect vibes from this stuff for some time. Not just in writing but in aesthetics. The actual look of the show to me is much more in line with an off shoot of mass effect, including the ship design they've been flying around in. That psycho romulan chick is kinda hot though.
Dream on. You have no chance unless you're a sensitive hipster... and a close relative.
I was worried about how they'd handle it since its such a huge moment and yet they carried it off great! We even got to see a little of the old Picard back in action, even if just for a few fleeting moments!
Also several of the answers we got are only partial revelations and raised several more questions in their own right. So it left you right on the edge of your seat wanting more.
Also interesting to see the Cube situation unfold. Both seeing that the Romulans were prepared for the worst; but also that Seven manages to pull herself out. There's even a a subtle element there that whilst the Borg are monsters; there's also an element of them not being monsters to their own kind and that, even when separated from the collective, the Borg are still distrusted, feared and hated or just seen as tools/resources.
Are we going to see any Fed ships, though? They were supposed to meet up at DS12 but instead went straight to Soji's homeworld.
Instead, I think we're going to see a Borg cube show up and save the day, and that would certainly be amusingly different.
I don't think a friendly fleet was going to meet them at DS12, just going by the story told about the last time Starfleet was contacted and it concerned synths.
Lots and lots of answers, none of which felt trite.
I’m not overly fond of the whole 90%+ of people who learn the secret go insane/suicide on the spot, because nothing they can tell us will live up to that.
Lots and lots of answers, none of which felt trite.
I’m not overly fond of the whole 90%+ of people who learn the secret go insane/suicide on the spot, because nothing they can tell us will live up to that.
I get what you mean, but I think that there’s a difference between being told / shown on a TV show that “200,000 years ago AI wiped out organic life in a brutal genocide” and psychically experience the entire (?) thing as if you were actually there. The show has even established that experiencing it second hand in the mind meld from O isn’t as potent, which would also explain why the induction had to take place using the original “beacon” (and boy, the Mass Effect similarities are strong at the moment!)
Lots and lots of answers, none of which felt trite.
I’m not overly fond of the whole 90%+ of people who learn the secret go insane/suicide on the spot, because nothing they can tell us will live up to that.
I'm fine with the whole power of the not-Prothean Beacon doing weird things to people. In Mass Effect, it always seemed to be more than just a video recording that got stuck in your head. As far as the Beacon on Eden Prime implanting its stuff, there were only two test subjects of presumably high mental fortitude before it went pop. Having the vision doing a number on the Borg cube was fine with me, too.
Speaking of Mass Effect, I did catch strains of the main ME2 music in this episode.
It's very Trek and actually reminds me of the film Undiscovered Country, which had a similar "mind meld" influence being used. That this impacts the Romulans is a welcome change and also speaks of their long past history with the Vulcans in a little way.
Also don't forget the vast majority of Romulans are not affected by this. In fact if they learned that the rescue fleet had been destroyed by this groups actions I'm sure there'd be a huge backlash against them internally. However at present they are clearly in positions of great influence and power.
It also means that the story is left wide open as to what might happen. The warning is so old it might be nothing or it could be any one of a number of huge revelations.
Lots and lots of answers, none of which felt trite.
I’m not overly fond of the whole 90%+ of people who learn the secret go insane/suicide on the spot, because nothing they can tell us will live up to that.
I get what you mean, but I think that there’s a difference between being told / shown on a TV show that “200,000 years ago AI wiped out organic life in a brutal genocide” and psychically experience the entire (?) thing as if you were actually there. The show has even established that experiencing it second hand in the mind meld from O isn’t as potent, which would also explain why the induction had to take place using the original “beacon” (and boy, the Mass Effect similarities are strong at the moment!)
Yeah, it's like the difference between watching Saving Private Ryan versus being someone who actually lived through D-Day. Knowledge vs. Experience.
That, and having what could have been years of horrible memories crammed into your mind in the space of seconds probably doesn't have a good effect on your brain.
I am curious, though, as to what the threshold they're afraid of is. What is the line that can't be crossed? My guess would be self-replicating synthetics.
Self replicating might be one barrier, but by their very nature once you've got one synthetic you've got the capacity to produce more because by their very design they are created in the first place.
I'd go one stage further and say not just self replicating; but the capacity to reproduce with organic species. Ergo synthetic and non-synthetic relations. That would rather nicely tie into why the male romulan spy was rather interested in bedding her. Hhe appears more rebellious and the fact that we only saw women take the test; might mean that whilst he's part of their organisation he's not been exposed to that level of testing - perhaps giving him a slight sense of disbelief and a desire to test the boundaries of it.
The capacity for synethetic life to reproduce more of their own has appeared before in ST; however the capacity for blending synthetic and organic is fairly new I think. Or at least exceptionally rare.
Lots and lots of answers, none of which felt trite.
I’m not overly fond of the whole 90%+ of people who learn the secret go insane/suicide on the spot, because nothing they can tell us will live up to that.
I get what you mean, but I think that there’s a difference between being told / shown on a TV show that “200,000 years ago AI wiped out organic life in a brutal genocide” and psychically experience the entire (?) thing as if you were actually there. The show has even established that experiencing it second hand in the mind meld from O isn’t as potent, which would also explain why the induction had to take place using the original “beacon” (and boy, the Mass Effect similarities are strong at the moment!)
Yeah, it's like the difference between watching Saving Private Ryan versus being someone who actually lived through D-Day. Knowledge vs. Experience.
That, and having what could have been years of horrible memories crammed into your mind in the space of seconds probably doesn't have a good effect on your brain.
I am curious, though, as to what the threshold they're afraid of is. What is the line that can't be crossed? My guess would be self-replicating synthetics.
There’s also the inherent weirdness of having someone else’s experience in your mind.
Would you have taken the same action? Made the same mistakes? With experience, probably not. But because that experience is now a memory forcibly implanted in your mind, you can’t. What’s done is done, and there’s no changing it.
What makes Admonition interesting here is the Romulan Condition. They’re not Carey Sharey. One could even describe their culture as paranoid.
Had mankind found Admonition first? The message could be more ‘this is where and how we effed up.
That changes the lesson from ‘don’t ever’ to ‘be aware’.
Thargrim wrote: I've been getting mass effect vibes from this stuff for some time. Not just in writing but in aesthetics. The actual look of the show to me is much more in line with an off shoot of mass effect, including the ship design they've been flying around in. That psycho romulan chick is kinda hot though.
Bubblegum Crisis, BSG and Bladerunner and loads of other sci-fif shows like Humans and Westworld have or are covering similar ground re machine people- however equally enjoying this - good episode.
I am still not sure what makes the sythnetics worse than the Borg or loads of other ultra powerful bad guys, plus there has been sentient artiical life loads of times on Trek?
And yeah she is a very hot mess.
So did the Borg let Seven go at the end? I am sure they will want the synthetics just like they wanted Data.
So did the Borg let Seven go at the end? I am sure they will want the synthetics just like they wanted Data.
The cube didn't connect with the greater hive mind of the Borg. She outlined that she could isolate it from the main collective; basically forming its own sub-collective that she could control. The whole "I won't want to leave" part isn't so much the Borg letting her go but the collective and her own desire to leave once rejoined. Don't forget she was assimilated when very young and was held for a very long time. So lurking beneath the surface there is a desire to return to the collective. That's the part where she'd not want to leave. That it would, in part, be her own choice not to leave the vast linked hive mind.
Much like how Changlings don't like to leave the Great Link on their homeworld.
As for the threat of the Destroyer the story is hazy, but it sounds like whoever built the 8 star system as a warning also left in place something else. They clearly had to "win" against their own synthetics on some level in order to leave behind such a bold warning. It sounds like "The Destroyer" is what they left behind. Something powerful and highly destructive that will come if it detects synthetic life beyond a certain threshold of development. That it has to detect it might mask over previous creations of synthetic life. We also don't even know if its still operational or what form it takes - remember much of what we've got so far is hints of this mysterious world and the madness that has infected a portion of the Romulan race from the warning beacon left behind.
Maybe they can go find the clues at that Temple on Kobol, and backtrack to the Thirteen Colonies.
At this point 'Surprise Crossover Fanfic' would be a relief.
Plus my impression is that whatever threat it is destroys everything. Every colony, individual, member of the race(s) involved in the development of the synthetics and the synthetics themselves. Perhaps even destruction of a whole linked selection of races (which would basically mean the bulk of the alpha quadrant).Whatever force it is, it was fearsome enough and maddening enough to break an entire Borg cube and make the Borg separate it from the collective. That's a pretty major threat when you consider that, at the height of their power, the Borg are basically unmatched as a single race/force* - save perhaps for the Dominion at the height of its breeding and production capabilities.
*with the exception of stuff from other realities and super-entities like the Q
I'm trying to work out what the big "issue" with synthetics actually is.
Is it a case of synthetic life developing past a tipping point and become a full-blown, out of control Cylon menace, or once they reach a certain point of development, do they attract the attention of the "Reapers"?
Is the title "The Destroyer" specifically used for Soji as an individual or for any synthetic of her level of development? If there's really the risk of a Big Bad coming along and wiping every sentient race in this cycle (or whatever), wouldn't that make her the herald, rather than the Destroyer?
Ah I thought Seven was talking to the collective when she said Anika still has things to do but you are probably right that was her talking to herself to make herself sever the link and that it had remained just a local network.
Again may be wrong but I thought the Destroyer warning was that It would arise if you built them and destroy the fleshy ones. I assumed they defeated it before but it would come again if you built them.
Maybe they can go find the clues at that Temple on Kobol, and backtrack to the Thirteen Colonies.
Chillreaper wrote: I'm trying to work out what the big "issue" with synthetics actually is.
Is it a case of synthetic life developing past a tipping point and become a full-blown, out of control Cylon menace, or once they reach a certain point of development, do they attract the attention of the "Reapers"?
Is the title "The Destroyer" specifically used for Soji as an individual or for any synthetic of her level of development? If there's really the risk of a Big Bad coming along and wiping every sentient race in this cycle (or whatever), wouldn't that make her the herald, rather than the Destroyer?
Pretty much.
What we’re seeing are people who’ve gone mental having been essentially infected with memories not their own.
Memories that seem to be of AI gone all Skynet. And so those exposed to it are full on tonto against AI.
Trek has an extensive history of AI, even galactic scale AI threats like V’Ger and Nomad, but some Soongbots are going to be what sets off this response?
Also, how could such an apocalyptic threat against even the Borg still be a secret? It’s not like there aren’t scores of 200,000+ year old civilizations or civs that had access to their records. Either the threat is extremely local or Barclay should be able to make a few calls and get to the bottom of things.
Data himself wasn't a threat, he wasn't advanced enough. It was the continued development of synthetics that was the threat. Destroying Data alone wouldn't have prevented continued synthetic advance. If anything it might have accelerated it.
Whilst Dr Soone was a single genius its rare for a single scientist to be the only person of an age to make a breakthrough within the same field. Chances are whilst he was years ahead; others were getting closer too.
From what I can tell the Romulans played the long game with a gamble. Basically aiming to not just remove one synthetic threat, but the whole concept from Starfleet itself. To get the technology itself banned to the point where development stops and eventually the knowledge required filters out of the scientific community at large. Basically resulting in a lack of synthetic development that could last generations.
Maybe, even though they were potential planet killers, the unique nature of them disqualifies them from setting things off. No opportunity for exponential growth and their destructive tendencies did seem to just be directed towards a single planet.
Maybe, even though they were potential planet killers, the unique nature of them disqualifies them from setting things off. No opportunity for exponential growth and their destructive tendencies did seem to just be directed towards a single planet.
Maybe, even though they were potential planet killers, the unique nature of them disqualifies them from setting things off. No opportunity for exponential growth and their destructive tendencies did seem to just be directed towards a single planet.
Wasn't Veger sent back by a machine intelligence?
V'Ger is something I wonder if we'll see appear in this series.
That said yes V'Ger basically encountered a random wormhole that threw it all the way to the other end of the Galaxy - further than any (even Voyager) ship has gone from the Federation. At the other end it encountered a race who refitted it with its prob-ship form and sent it on its way. It was a powerful force of destruction too, its huge memorybank cloud basically destroying anything in its path on its way home in its quest to catalogue everything. It also ascended to a new lifeform at the very end of the film, however I don't think we ever heard anything else about it. Like the Whale Probe its one of those mysteries of the lore that is still a mystery.
Pretty sure it was a machine planet - had a google
Voyager 6 emerged from the anomaly in what was believed to have been the far side of the galaxy, and fell into the gravitational field of a planet populated by living machines.
Maybe, even though they were potential planet killers, the unique nature of them disqualifies them from setting things off. No opportunity for exponential growth and their destructive tendencies did seem to just be directed towards a single planet.
V’Ger digitized dozens of planets. We see them inside the virtual storage space after Spock’s mind meld.
Star Trek is full of species advancing into energy beings or godlings. The Dominion is practically a vonNeuMann device on a sociological scale, expanding using their cloning and industrial capacity. But they aren’t synthetic so they don’t count?
Nanites and exocomps exist. Gomtuu is a member of a fleet of artificial life forms with ftl and planetkilling abilities. The Enterprise gave birth to a cybernetic organism. We’ve seen whole societies of androids. Seems like someone should have heard about this anti-AI threat by now.
Except its never been anti-ai, its anti-synthetics. There seems to be an important difference and even in TNG (which we accept never had this plot backed into its script) Data was always held up as a huge exception to the normal even compared to other artificial life.
Plus we've no idea if the Romulans might have hunted some of those other life forms down in secret. TNG had a lot of aliens we only met once or twice.
In any case, there seems to be enough, well, wiggle room and space in the lore to allow this to happen.
Even in this episode, where the backstory is being revealed, even Picard is like, "this could very well just be a cult of lunatics who are wrong."
So it doesn't feel like an unreasonable stretch to treat them as not intergalactically powerful as they think they are...
The main thing is the Borg cube disconnection... But there could be more to it than that. Are the borg afraid of what might come to pass? Or was it some sort of psychic feedback mechanism from the Romulan mind affected by the beacon.
Possibly the uploading of the Admonition into the Collective essentially had the same effect on the Collective as it did on single minds. Much like how returning Hugh to the Borg broke his cube.
I don't think she gave a number, I think she just said "hundreds of thousands of years ago" and Picard just mentioned a random number in response.
Also we don't really know what it is. A machine, a god engine, a single space ship, a dimensional rift.
the 200,000 years ago tidbit could actually end up being a REAL important clue.
What ancient civilization in star trek dissappered 200,000 years ago. and just happens to have their homeworld, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NEUTRAL ZONE?
Interestingly, I had confused the Iconians with the episode in S1 of TNG that involved the Ferengi: the Tkon Empire outpost discovered by the Enterprise. Checking Memory Alpha, the Tkon were even older than the Iconians, but something very interesting was mentioned in the entry: they had the ability to move stars.
Wonder if Picard is going to ‘Measure of a Man’ his way to victory?
Worth watching that episode now if you haven’t. Off you pop!
Back? Good episode, eh?
Anyways. In terms of sentient AI, that was to me a first. An active (and successful) attempt to argue that Androids, and by extension Synthetics as they’re now coined, are not property, but a life form unto themselves.
Contrast and compare to most other AI Rebellions in SciFi, and their route causes.
Could it be the precedent set down in that episode is the first step to avoiding whatever it is that Admonition is showing?
I mean, a free species is a free species, no? If you don’t treat them as slaves or property, much of the motive for rebelling in the first place is just, gone.
Yeah, but this terrible federation obviously treats them like crap (per the first episode), so they do have a motive for rebelling.
Even if they _are_ covered by the ruling that protected Data (which isn't clear), they're still treated like garbage, because Sir Patrick Stewart must something something unto Evil Federation, because having a show based on idealism is heresy.
Voss wrote: Yeah, but this terrible federation obviously treats them like crap (per the first episode), so they do have a motive for rebelling.
Even if they _are_ covered by the ruling that protected Data (which isn't clear), they're still treated like garbage, because Sir Patrick Stewart must something something unto Evil Federation, because having a show based on idealism is heresy.
Must be watching a very different show.......or just ignoring that actual content
Voss wrote: Yeah, but this terrible federation obviously treats them like crap (per the first episode), so they do have a motive for rebelling.
Even if they _are_ covered by the ruling that protected Data (which isn't clear), they're still treated like garbage, because Sir Patrick Stewart must something something unto Evil Federation, because having a show based on idealism is heresy.
Must be watching a very different show.......or just ignoring that actual content
I think some people went into this show looking for things to dislike instead of things to like. and then have the chutzpa to complain the SHOW isn't optimistic eneugh
Voss wrote: Yeah, but this terrible federation obviously treats them like crap (per the first episode), so they do have a motive for rebelling.
Even if they _are_ covered by the ruling that protected Data (which isn't clear), they're still treated like garbage, because Sir Patrick Stewart must something something unto Evil Federation, because having a show based on idealism is heresy.
Must be watching a very different show.......or just ignoring that actual content
I think some people went into this show looking for things to dislike instead of things to like. and then have the chutzpa to complain the SHOW isn't optimistic eneugh
yeah I don't get it as recent episodes have been very big on nostalga, doing the right thing and making a better future.
Voss wrote: Yeah, but this terrible federation obviously treats them like crap (per the first episode), so they do have a motive for rebelling.
Even if they _are_ covered by the ruling that protected Data (which isn't clear), they're still treated like garbage, because Sir Patrick Stewart must something something unto Evil Federation, because having a show based on idealism is heresy.
Must be watching a very different show.......or just ignoring that actual content
I think some people went into this show looking for things to dislike instead of things to like. and then have the chutzpa to complain the SHOW isn't optimistic eneugh
yeah I don't get it as recent episodes have been very big on nostalga, doing the right thing and making a better future.
yes but they're upset that starfleet has less then perfect leadership. ignoring all the donkey-cave admirals from every other series. and the "major character deaths" (I'm sorry but Icheb and Hugh are not major characters by any stretch of the imagination) etc
I think the difference is that (barring some parts of DS9) most of the bad Federation leaders in the past were generally dealt with in a single episode that ended on a positive "we solved this problem and overcame it" note.
This series has instead pounded some of the negative aspects far more so in a repeat fashion without a major "saving the wold" moment." Of course that's because we are getting a bigger story told in greater depth than they could ever achieve with a single 40min episode.
The problem some people could have could be what I read earlier (either here or elsewhere): while Star Trek has often been used to address issues within our society at the time, it often did so by using an alien race to embody those issues, with the Federation being the shining example of how to overcome those issues. Star Trek rarely ever used the Federation to embody those issues, and while it has done so in the past, it often did so in a way that was quickly resolved, or limited to the actions of a few, rather than the way Picard is handling it today by showing an ongoing, nearly systemic problem.
They’re not even a power mad jerk, they’re an alien Infiltrator. And the earlier obstinate admiral, when given proof of Picard’s outrageous claims, was then (seemingly) quite willing to send a Fleet to his aid. The series is playing out like an episode, just with a lot more detail and run time. It ain’t no slice of life episodic series.
They’re not even a power mad jerk, they’re an alien Infiltrator. And the earlier obstinate admiral, when given proof of Picard’s outrageous claims, was then (seemingly) quite willing to send a Fleet to his aid. The series is playing out like an episode, just with a lot more detail and run time. It ain’t no slice of life episodic series.
I'd be suprised if the season did end with Oh's arrest and a positive sign of starfleet and the federation returning to normal
Aren't they already guaranteed a second series? If they've planned it for several series then I'd agree it won't all end on a happy note. It might even end on a huge cliffhanger.
I’m going to go with the season ends with Starfleet “cleaned up” (I mean, in at least until they need a new corruption hook), and a new big Bad is introduced to be the foil for next season.
I don't think they'll even clean up Starfleet. I'd wager they might even split starfleet into competing factions/subgroups. You don't get to head of Security alone and without allies within the system - even if she's the only traitor/spy that high in the network she'll have regular "not spy" people who owe her favours/are under her thumb etc...
Overread wrote: Aren't they already guaranteed a second series? If they've planned it for several series then I'd agree it won't all end on a happy note. It might even end on a huge cliffhanger.
it could, but most likely as this is a season end they'll give Picard and crew a win and at the same time set it up. I could even see Picard being fetted as a hero, being offered a chance at regaining his comission and Picard turning it down because he wants to keep following this lead and can't risk "being tied to a orginization that could once more be subverted"
AduroT wrote: Would you like every question answered? If so this is the episode for you. Also...
Spoiler:
The Romulans might have actually had the right idea...
I dunno about that
Spoiler:
One might argue that the romulans are potentially the authors of their greatest fear And I suspect that will be the end arguement where both sides realize they've both pushed each other to the brink, by their own fears.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Episode 9 was pretty cool. Pleased to see the same settler aesthetic carried over from TNG.
Wonder what’s gonna happen next week?
Borg ex machina, also the Starfleet cavalry shows up. Romulans get obliterated. Introduce new big bad as season finale cliffhanger, likely Worfing the Starfleet fleet in the process.
So Episode 9 - Borg Cube to the rescue - didn't quite work! Though it means there's synthetic and organic and half way between the two in one engagement area. Who knows what this other synthetic force might think about that.
Of course there's also the fact that this warning was placed on that world long ago. It could be that supreme synthetic life force fell between then and the now - meaning that all their eggs in the basket of rescue might backfire.
Actually based on how this message, even second and then third hand (though mind links) has caused quite swift and extreme shifts in populations I do wonder if its more complex.
I could see it being a "test" that the message and warning is designed to put synthetic and "normal" life against each other to test their resolve - either a some twisted means to find out the superior option; or perhaps to test their bond between them. With the theory that if they fall into war they destroy each other or one group at least destroys the other (bringing about the destruction in the warning); or if they overcome it they emerge a far stronger united front.
So, it's one hundred percent gone Mass Effect, with Soji's people in the role of the Geth and Soji as Legion.
I'm guessing it'll follow a similar format, The Reapers arrive, part of Soji's people stay with Picard (and Soji), and part of them become the Heretics allied with The Reapers.
I have faith he gets to make a speech that works! I'm really feeling sorry for him every time he's had an epic moment he's been deflected, ignored, shut down or arrested. Although at least the last one he gave had enough resounding impact for him to be arrested instead of told to be quiet. So he's getting better, just a few more practices!
I'm impressed that the scriptwriters managed to come up with a a plot that changed my opinion from "we need to save all the not-Datas from the evil nasty baddies", to "yeah, looks like the Romulans are right about this" in less than 30 seconds.
Several episodes of build up in one direction, followed by a swift 180.
Also, how come the Borg have just been a bunch of chumps since First Contact?
Voyager had cubes being blown up left right and centre, the Romulans can space a cube full of drones with the push of a button (like that's a big deal to Borg drones?!) and now they get taken down by some overgrown Mother's Day presents?
The Borg need to get back to kicking bottoms and assimilating names.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Going loooooooong with this one. Like, a Hail Mary, Jospeh, Jesus, Abraham, Adam and Eve....
Is this all just in Picard’s mind?
That would be dumb. Like, I didn’t hate the Discovery ending where Riker was watching a holodeck recording despite how panned that was, because it was still events that happened, but if it was all just a fever dream, no.
Chillreaper wrote: I'm impressed that the scriptwriters managed to come up with a a plot that changed my opinion from "we need to save all the not-Datas from the evil nasty baddies", to "yeah, looks like the Romulans are right about this" in less than 30 seconds.
Several episodes of build up in one direction, followed by a swift 180.
Also, how come the Borg have just been a bunch of chumps since First Contact?
Voyager had cubes being blown up left right and centre, the Romulans can space a cube full of drones with the push of a button (like that's a big deal to Borg drones?!) and now they get taken down by some overgrown Mother's Day presents?
The Borg need to get back to kicking bottoms and assimilating names.
At least in this instance it was a heavily damaged / dismantled cube, disconnected from the collective and being run by a skeleton crew of ex-Borg; not exactly surprising it wouldn’t be hugely effective (although I am thoroughly expecting it to be kicking Romulan ass next week!)
Normally, having a cube crash on your planet would be super bad news for you, no matter what state it was in. Just give it a bit of time and it's back in action and the planet is doomed. Mind you, with Queen Seven in charge, they might be a fair bit more relaxed about things.
Eh the Cube is broken and the Borg commanding it are still very lost. They are actually a lot like the Synthetics in that right now the majority of them are drifting along with only one or two leading and pushing for changes. The Borg very much so, they are trapped between two worlds.
Their Borg side which is severed and clearly there isn't enough will in the local collective to restore their original function; whilst the former living side is still coming to terms with massive trauma - remembering that even those assimilated most recently are still suffering; whilst those who were within the collective far longer might have little to no past to restore from.
Plus unlike Picard and Seven, they are surrounded by mostly each other and the Romulans didn't look to be the most friendly of welcomes to getting people back on the path to being alive and individual.
They could still do it - technically the back-up Data might still have Data's original memories and thoughts - even though it was established that it broke down there could still be some means to restoring him.
Compel wrote: I think I know what they're doing with the borg cube...
Several spots on Episode 9 of the cube showed the Borg sphere port that was very much intact and above the ground.
You thinking time travel like when the Queen did it in the film? In general you don't need the sphere for that, any ship that uses the gravity sling-shot manoeuvre can establish a tunnel to do time travel. However I get the feeling that they don't want to do time travel in this story. It's always a bit of a cop-out at times too as either it dominates the story with a temporal fight; or it flies in at the very end to re-set things (much like "and then he woke up and it was all a dream" kind of endings. Ones that resolve things but end up being rather, well, unsatisfying.
Wonder whose mind is going to end up in the golem.
Presumably Son of Soong aims to achieve immortality with it, presumably Dr. Murderer is going to assist and betray him at the last minute.
Does anyone else think that Picard is going to end up in there? That way, they swerve his impending death and get another actor to play him in subsequent series; it's not as if any of us are getting any younger...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Going loooooooong with this one. Like, a Hail Mary, Jospeh, Jesus, Abraham, Adam and Eve....
Is this all just in Picard’s mind?
That would be dumb. Like, I didn’t hate the Discovery ending where Riker was watching a holodeck recording despite how panned that was, because it was still events that happened, but if it was all just a fever dream, no.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Going loooooooong with this one. Like, a Hail Mary, Jospeh, Jesus, Abraham, Adam and Eve....
Is this all just in Picard’s mind?
That would be dumb. Like, I didn’t hate the Discovery ending where Riker was watching a holodeck recording despite how panned that was, because it was still events that happened, but if it was all just a fever dream, no.
That was Enterprise
Right. Right. I was thinking of the right show, I just used the wrong name.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Going loooooooong with this one. Like, a Hail Mary, Jospeh, Jesus, Abraham, Adam and Eve....
Is this all just in Picard’s mind?
That would be dumb. Like, I didn’t hate the Discovery ending where Riker was watching a holodeck recording despite how panned that was, because it was still events that happened, but if it was all just a fever dream, no.
That was Enterprise
Right. Right. I was thinking of the right show, I just used the wrong name.
It could have been amazing if they'd handled it better - from Riker's POV it was set during The Pegasus, and he's trying to decide who's side he's on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Getting back to Picard - I wonder if they'd try to please the fans by having Riker turn up with the Titan and the rest of the TNG crew with their ships.
That would be crazy and I hadn’t considered it. I highly doubt it though. Riker is kind of out of the Starfleet loop to really know where Picard is right now and to get “his” ship and contact everyone and get them there. It’s a bit much. I think it would feel too highly contrived, forced fan service sort of deal.
I would more readily accept some members of Picard’s old crew happening to be among the fleet of Starfleet ships I’m expecting to show up though, as it would have to be a pretty big fleet to deal with 200+ Romulan ships, so you get good odds of familiar faces there.
I'd imagine Worf might turn up for combat. Last I recall he was captain of the Defiant and even if Starfleet has made more of that class, or more warship class ships; I'd wager he'd still be involved with that end of the Federation.
Have we heard anything of the actors getting contacted to appear? So far we know Whoopie is going to appear in her old role at some point.
After Riker and Worf many of the crew were more utilitarian roles. Medics, engineers etc... So whilst they'd be of great support, they might not be able to bring a ship of their own or command much influence within Starfleet. Data was actually one of the few on the old crew who could have captained his own ship (indeed in more than one episode he did stand in as acting captain).
Overread wrote: After Riker and Worf many of the crew were more utilitarian roles. Medics, engineers etc... So whilst they'd be of great support, they might not be able to bring a ship of their own or command much influence within Starfleet. Data was actually one of the few on the old crew who could have captained his own ship (indeed in more than one episode he did stand in as acting captain).
How does Oh manage to be both Chief of Starfleet security, and manage to command a Romulan battle fleet in person?
That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one could just take PTO for and nobody know about...
Compel wrote: So, it's one hundred percent gone Mass Effect, with Soji's people in the role of the Geth and Soji as Legion.
I'm guessing it'll follow a similar format, The Reapers arrive, part of Soji's people stay with Picard (and Soji), and part of them become the Heretics allied with The Reapers.
I got kinda the same vibe, and it immediately irked me because now I'm almost expecting Picard to end going down in plot-flames just as badly, but desperately hoping not.
Vaktathi wrote: So, after that last episode, I have one question.
How does Oh manage to be both Chief of Starfleet security, and manage to command a Romulan battle fleet in person?
That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one could just take PTO for and nobody know about...
I've been watching Trekyards quite a bit and they made a couple of observations about this:
One is that she's a commodore in both Starfleet and the Romulan forces - what are the chances? Also, since when did the Romulans have the same ranks?
The other observation is she would have to have worked her way up to commodore in the Romulan Star Empire before she went deep undercover in Starfleet. Presumably, having to work her way up the ladder from the ground up - that's got to have been annoying enough to test her emotionless Vulcan act to the limits!
They do live longer than humans- every chance she worked her way up both times from the ground - although her connections to her secret order (which by the initiation looked like parent to child) might well have given her a few leg-ups in the Romulan side at least.
Or it could be honourary, as befitting her actual rank as a Starfleet Commodore as well as (presumably) being the Tal Shiar's highest ranked infiltrator and operative in the Federation.
Vaktathi wrote: So, after that last episode, I have one question.
How does Oh manage to be both Chief of Starfleet security, and manage to command a Romulan battle fleet in person?
That doesn't seem like the kind of thing one could just take PTO for and nobody know about...
I've been watching Trekyards quite a bit and they made a couple of observations about this:
One is that she's a commodore in both Starfleet and the Romulan forces - what are the chances? Also, since when did the Romulans have the same ranks?
Well, it depends, on the position and branch of service. Some are a bit 'why historical Earth cultural cues?' (Centurions and Uhlans).
But there have been actual Romulan characters with ranks of General, Admiral, Commander, Sub-commander, Sub-lieutenant (but no lieutenants), and Colonels and Majors in the Tal Shiar (though the Major was actually Troi in disguise, but presumably they didn't give her a rank Romulans don't use).
Lots of plot devices they can use - eg they have a portal in the Cube to go apparently anywhere so why worry about fixing the ship....did we discover how Seven got to the cube?
Its a Borg cube it regenerates.
Quite liked that the student of vulcans was basically - feth the organics - its them or us from the start (or has she been for longer)
When the orchids turned up - I immediately thought Species 8472.
Given that the “Vulcan” synthetic is the one who lost her sister to Rios’ Captain, I’m betting that she’s had an axe to grind for a long while.
Also:
Spoiler:
Is it obvious to everyone else that she killed the “innocent” synthetic and let Narek go? I’m assuming a “no synth kills another” will be a key part of the resolution.
Jadenim wrote: Given that the “Vulcan” synthetic is the one who lost her sister to Rios’ Captain, I’m betting that she’s had an axe to grind for a long while.
Also:
Spoiler:
Is it obvious to everyone else that she killed the “innocent” synthetic and let Narek go? I’m assuming a “no synth kills another” will be a key part of the resolution.
It is obvious but not sure thats been said that thats part of their ethos- perhaps its a further step in their evolution...
Jadenim wrote: Given that the “Vulcan” synthetic is the one who lost her sister to Rios’ Captain, I’m betting that she’s had an axe to grind for a long while.
Also:
Spoiler:
Is it obvious to everyone else that she killed the “innocent” synthetic and let Narek go? I’m assuming a “no synth kills another” will be a key part of the resolution.
It is obvious but not sure thats been said that thats part of their ethos- perhaps its a further step in their evolution...
I don’t think that she did the actual act, but I think she intentionally allowed it to happen.
Compel wrote: Or it could be honourary, as befitting her actual rank as a Starfleet Commodore as well as (presumably) being the Tal Shiar's highest ranked infiltrator and operative in the Federation.
or it could just be a translation. Commadore is sometimes used in some navies as a honorriffic for a ship captain whose commanding a squadron. as such if she's simply a romulan Commander (their captain equivilant) and is commanding a squadron we could simply hear the rank commandore used as "the closest translation" for her rank.
Jadenim wrote: Given that the “Vulcan” synthetic is the one who lost her sister to Rios’ Captain, I’m betting that she’s had an axe to grind for a long while.
Also:
Spoiler:
Is it obvious to everyone else that she killed the “innocent” synthetic and let Narek go? I’m assuming a “no synth kills another” will be a key part of the resolution.
She was killed with the lapel/pin that Narek was very clearly shown to be eyeing up in a scene before. She didn't kill anyone, but she did release Narek and likely told him to kill her (since Narek wasn't looking to kill anyone save to escape). What's a touch more confusing is how Narek allowed himself to be caught.
He's either heading more and more mentally off the rails and flip flopping mentally between his curiosity, love and mission; or he's a very good spy acting insane.
Jadenim wrote: Given that the “Vulcan” synthetic is the one who lost her sister to Rios’ Captain, I’m betting that she’s had an axe to grind for a long while.
Also:
Spoiler:
Is it obvious to everyone else that she killed the “innocent” synthetic and let Narek go? I’m assuming a “no synth kills another” will be a key part of the resolution.
She was killed with the lapel/pin that Narek was very clearly shown to be eyeing up in a scene before. She didn't kill anyone, but she did release Narek and likely told him to kill her (since Narek wasn't looking to kill anyone save to escape). What's a touch more confusing is how Narek allowed himself to be caught.
He's either heading more and more mentally off the rails and flip flopping mentally between his curiosity, love and mission; or he's a very good spy acting insane.
he's defiantly torn, IMHO he'll end up coming to the conclusion that "a person is a person no matter how small" and working with the heros and finding a "third way"
Right now he actually reminds me a bit of the birth Alien from the 4th Alien film. That casual level of violent reaction underlaying a very confused mental state. Especially when he was in the prison crooning to get released. At one moment pathetic and innocent and seeking care and in the very next violent and vicious and lashing out.
He could go either way and might change sides multiple times resulting in powerful backstabbing on both fronts. He might well aim for different resolution, but he might even go fully off the rails with his own that works against the other forces entirely.
Looks like I'll be catching up on all this and seeing if it really is the dumpster fire that it sounds like from reviews. Just remember to cancel before April 24th to avoid a charge for a month that isn't free.
no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.
warboss wrote: Looks like CBS All Access is free for the next month (April 24th) if you use the coupon code "GIFT". In case anyone thinks I'm joking...
Looks like I'll be catching up on all this and seeing if it really is the dumpster fire that it sounds like from reviews. Just remember to cancel before April 24th to avoid a charge for a month that isn't free.
Its quite entertaining and has some good elements...see what you think.
no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.
That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?
no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.
That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?
No I mean I don't get going into watch something, and LOOKING for things to hate about it. plenty of people do it and I don't get it
Some people are just relentlessly negative. I don't get it, either. I vastly prefer doing things I enjoy and thinking about things I like rather than the opposite.
Funnily enough, I still haven't gotten around to seeing last week's episode.
no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.
That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?
No I mean I don't get going into watch something, and LOOKING for things to hate about it. plenty of people do it and I don't get it
Those are people who tend to have a lot of time on their hands.
I'm serious. I can almost guarantee you that it tracks.
It's sad (and very predictable) that nowadays people who see criticism of a show they like reflexively criticize the person posting the dissenting opinion. I'm a big fan of the first AVP movie but I don't feel the need to psychoanalyze or insult people who don't. It's ok to like something that others don't and vice versa. Criticism of a tv show isn't automatically criticism of the fanbase. You'll be ok.
Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though. They are EAGER to scream 'That's not Star Trek!' every opportunity they get, and come up with a list of 39 things they hated about the latest episode of whatever Trek, so they have clickbait content for their YouTube channel.
That said, for someone who grew up with TNG (I was in high school a good part of the run), I am mostly left with a feeling of 'meh' about Picard. I'll watch, but I could have gone on just fine without it. If others like it, good for them...
totalfailure wrote: Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though.
As does Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, Star Wars, most sport teams etc...
It's human nature. When we become invested into something at a high level we enjoy sharing that with other people. However at the same time we establish a series of understandings of the thing we are interested in. These understandings are often most heavily shaped by our early interactions. Change that comes after those early interactions can be both good and bad, however our reception to those changes can vary a lot. Sometimes a thing can change significantly from the original, but does so in small stages and steps. So any who keep up don't even really notice the changes.
Those who step back and walk away for a period of time can more readily see the changes because they are no longer involved in the gradual evolution. This can make them less accepting. In addition sometimes changes happen suddenly - like the shift from Old World to Age of Sigmar; or the release of the Prequel Star Wars films.
In the end its just fans arguing about stuff - just like some Nightwish fans will argue about their favourite lead singer or others will argue about their favourite football players in their favourite team.
totalfailure wrote: Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though. They are EAGER to scream 'That's not Star Trek!' every opportunity they get, and come up with a list of 39 things they hated about the latest episode of whatever Trek, so they have clickbait content for their YouTube channel.
That said, for someone who grew up with TNG (I was in high school a good part of the run), I am mostly left with a feeling of 'meh' about Picard. I'll watch, but I could have gone on just fine without it. If others like it, good for them...
I find the term "gatekeeper" to be highly inaccurate figuratively and literally as it innately implies that they're trying to prevent access to the show to you and others. That's not even close to what they're attempting to do let alone succeeding. A highly negative review is no more gatekeeping than a glowingly positive one; both are simply opinions meant to inform or at worst persuade. I watch lots of supposedly toxic fan reviews and it certainly didn't prevent me from signing up on day 1 once they started the free grace period. You have a solid case for calling it clickbait though.
Do I agree with those reviews calling it a dumpster fire as I previously mention? No, not really as I'm actually (so far with episode 1-3) more in agreement with you. I've had an occasional tinge of nostalgia but overall it's thoroughly mediocre IMO. The parts that were described as horrible were mainly cringeworthy or out of character at worst (like the vulgar and overly emotional dressing down by his fellow admiral at HQ or the GOT incestous tone of the Romulan Zjad Vash (sp?) siblings). Maybe my feelings will change as I progress through the season but so far it's better than Season 1 of Disco but still IMO not good or even trekky feeling. We'll see if that last part changes as they literally just went to warp when I stopped watching for the night... though the torture scene is IIRC next for me. That did sound like one of the worst.
The season does mature as it goes along, and is solid at answering the earlier questions, without snuffing out the plot, whilst also introducing new plot elements and twists without it being too much.
no most of the people who claim it's a dumpster fire are from people who go in looking to nitpick so they can prove how awesome a fan they are by..... trashing it? I dunno it's a mentality I don't get.
That other people have different, but valid, opinions?
Can you explain the mentality of trashing different viewpoints?
No I mean I don't get going into watch something, and LOOKING for things to hate about it. plenty of people do it and I don't get it
Those are people who tend to have a lot of time on their hands.
I'm serious. I can almost guarantee you that it tracks.
I’d agree. Anyone willing to make a ‘criticism’ video as long or longer than the episode or films they’re claiming to critique should probably be ignored - whether they enjoyed it or not.
totalfailure wrote: Star Trek seems to suffer from an especially prominent overabundance of fervent gatekeepers who think they are the one true to heir Roddenberry's vision, though. They are EAGER to scream 'That's not Star Trek!' every opportunity they get, and come up with a list of 39 things they hated about the latest episode of whatever Trek, so they have clickbait content for their YouTube channel.
That said, for someone who grew up with TNG (I was in high school a good part of the run), I am mostly left with a feeling of 'meh' about Picard. I'll watch, but I could have gone on just fine without it. If others like it, good for them...
As noted, nope - not just ST fans. Star Wars fandom is also known for it, and just about every other fandom out there (it's just ST and SW are the two biggest and more successful v/movie ones).
Nerd tribalist bullgak at its worst. Every tribe suffers from it, nerd and otherwise.
AduroT wrote: Mmmmmmmmm... I think that was a fairly weak finale overall. Lots of nits to pick.
I don't think it was weak, just anti-climatic -
Spoiler:
The space battle wasn't great, I was disappointed that all the Starfleet ships were the same class and Narissa's death was a bit cliched (if she is dead).
I'm going to binge-watch the series again in a few days.
AduroT wrote: Mmmmmmmmm... I think that was a fairly weak finale overall. Lots of nits to pick.
I don't think it was weak, just anti-climatic -
Spoiler:
The space battle wasn't great, I was disappointed that all the Starfleet ships were the same class and Narissa's death was a bit cliched (if she is dead).
I'm going to binge-watch the series again in a few days.
the starfleet ships being of the same class is dissappointing but easy to explain, back in the old days of trek it was almost easier to kitbash a ton of differant ships out of spare model kits you had laying around etc (the wolf 359 graveyard being the most obvious example here) but now with CGI a ton of things the same is the easier options. that said, they give a "srot of" explination on screen when they note that "this is the fastest best armed ship in the fleet" my guess is they simple had a class of ship, presumably a new class, that was simply fast eneugh to make it. a fleet after all has the travel at the speed of it's slowest component member
Not having seen the episode yet, it's also with pointing out that the Utopia Planitia Shipyards at Mars were destroyed, along with a lot of ships in the fleet. They may very well have consolidated down to only a few designs easily built elsewhere to restock the fleet.
Just watched the Sister Boy side quest and Freecloud episodes... and wow... that was the least trekish Star Trek I've seen since the premiere of DISCO. I think I'll have to reconcile it by simply saying that the change in Picard from a deep, insightful, diplomatic, and charismatic captain to an impetuous, naive, and boorish old man is because of the Irumotic (sp?) Syndrome.
More worrying than the so called toxicity of negative reviewers is the tendency to discredit their opinions a priori. "They probably have too much time on their hands" is particularly rich coming from users with thousands of post in a miniature wargaming forum.
Media can and should be criticised and it's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to engage with said criticism and figure out if it has any merit.
The whole attitude of "it's just entertainmant, dude" must be the most frustrating notion in relation to contemporary media, as it directly contributes to the decline in quality and consistency we are witnessing.
The ships and fleets were something of a disappointment and hints at overstressed design & FX assets. The Organic-Synthetic core conflict was even more stupid here I feel than it was forced into the last 5 minutes of the Mass Effect trilogy, where ample proof of coexistence and understanding of all sorts of weird life was rampant and forged by the character's actions as solidly understood loooooooong before the conclusion. Oh was not a particularly compelling Romulan nemesis in the vein of Tomalak, Keras, or Sela. Some oddness with the nature of Picard's sacrifice being undercut by his otherwise imminent natural death and immediate resurrection. I still can't remember the name of the Romulan Ninja dude because he still hasn't managed to serve any real story purpose and the dude can't act his way out of a box. Soji just merrily rejoining the crew after almost bringing the Apocalypse, like it 'aint no thang, felt...a wee bit weird. There was definitely some peak Trek contrived plot devices, deus ex machina, and convenient timing involved
I liked Seven's performance, and the vengeance for Hugh was awesome (in fact, Hugh's whole callback arc I like a lot), the space battle was pretty, and Data's send off was a much needed patch-up to his ending in Nemesis. Some interesting places to go next season.
For the "dumpster fire" thoughts, here's my take. I'm normally pretty bitter and cynical about these things, and am pretty quick to hop on such bandwagons where I think it's warranted (and I've voiced a few above). Ultimately, however, "Picard" is pretty standard...Star Trek. They've darkened it up, added new special effects, changed some format stuff, and serialized it, but it's still written by the seat of its pants with gigantic plot holes, narrative inconsistencies with previous content, contrived *everything*, some camp, a wide array of acting quality, goofy props, technobabble, some spaceships doing stuff at absurdly short visual distances, extreme (likely criminal or severely traumatic) acts often are overlooked and immediately forgotten, and all the aliens and robots manage to look like spray paint or pointy eared homo sapiens.
It was...basically Star Trek. In this, I can forgive it, that's part of what Star Trek has always been. I get the frustrations some people have with that, in some ways we kinda expect more these day (and that's a good thing), but this is inherently a nostalgia bomb show basically promising a refresh of something comfortable. From that perspective, it did fine. Honestly, I have way fewer issues with Picard than I do with Discovery (mainly in that Picard is at least coherent enough that I can recall the plot )
BrianDavion wrote: the starfleet ships being of the same class is dissappointing but easy to explain, back in the old days of trek it was almost easier to kitbash a ton of differant ships out of spare model kits you had laying around etc (the wolf 359 graveyard being the most obvious example here) but now with CGI a ton of things the same is the easier options. that said, they give a "srot of" explination on screen when they note that "this is the fastest best armed ship in the fleet" my guess is they simple had a class of ship, presumably a new class, that was simply fast eneugh to make it. a fleet after all has the travel at the speed of it's slowest component member
Yes - and the USS Constellation in TOS was NCC-1017 so they could re-use the transfers from the Enterprise model kit I think I'm just use to seeing different classes in Trek fleet shots.
Three further questions -
Spoiler:
Did we ever see Beautiful Flower's twin? Or find out who/what Soji's mother was? And without Data's neuron, can they create more synthetics?
As Vaktathi said, it was a very Star Trek ending, and a TNG one at that.
Looking forward to the next season already. Will Picard resume his Admiralcy? Will he remain in retirement etc? What role will Guinean play? Might we see Q?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BertBert wrote: More worrying than the so called toxicity of negative reviewers is the tendency to discredit their opinions a priori. "They probably have too much time on their hands" is particularly rich coming from users with thousands of post in a miniature wargaming forum.
Media can and should be criticised and it's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to engage with said criticism and figure out if it has any merit.
The whole attitude of "it's just entertainmant, dude" must be the most frustrating notion in relation to contemporary media, as it directly contributes to the decline in quality and consistency we are witnessing.
There’s a difference spending hours of my life on a forum about my Hobby, a Hobby I’ve been into for a little over 30 years, and having out a Youtube video lasting longer than the thing you’re critiquing, no?
Yes. All things are open to criticism. Criticism is not a purely negative thing. One can provide a positive critique. But when a critique is longer than the subject, I’ll ignore it, as I suspect there’ll be nothing constructive about it.
BrianDavion wrote: the starfleet ships being of the same class is dissappointing but easy to explain, back in the old days of trek it was almost easier to kitbash a ton of differant ships out of spare model kits you had laying around etc (the wolf 359 graveyard being the most obvious example here) but now with CGI a ton of things the same is the easier options. that said, they give a "srot of" explination on screen when they note that "this is the fastest best armed ship in the fleet" my guess is they simple had a class of ship, presumably a new class, that was simply fast eneugh to make it. a fleet after all has the travel at the speed of it's slowest component member
Yes - and the USS Constellation in TOS was NCC-1017 so they could re-use the transfers from the Enterprise model kit I think I'm just use to seeing different classes in Trek fleet shots.
Three further questions -
Spoiler:
Did we ever see Beautiful Flower's twin? Or find out who/what Soji's mother was? And without Data's neuron, can they create more synthetics?
people have noted BTW that it was actually several distinct classes that simply looked very similer. and I did see some possiable distinctions yeah.
one thing intreasting is the new feddy ships looks a LOT like the Avenger class battlecruiser from STO.
I'd not be too displeased if they cribbed a few other designs from STO
Interesting to note that the Starfleet Fleet appears to be closer to a unified warfleet than we've ever seen them use before. Prior to this their fleets have always been a bit of a motley of different classes of ships built at different times to different specifications with most of them being exploratory in nature at their core.
I suspect this is some fallout of the Dominion War and an expansion of the Defiant Program to produce a more unified fleet capable of military style response. The Nemesis film events might also have prompted Starfleet to realise that other races might well stop holding back and make far more capable warships as well.
Basically an escalation of arms. That would lore wise explain why the fleet has a very unified appearance; they were built at the same time to the same rough specifications and purpose. As opposed to being built more ad-hock.
The more surprising thing is that Will managed to take command of the fleet; which suggests that he's likely risen as high as Picard managed too in his day.
The lack of a scrap was a "shame" but at the same time the fight with the flowers was darn beautiful and pretty.
There's also the machine's on the edge to contend with. They were called and they are advanced. It might not nessessarily be the end of this story.
Overall I'm very pleased with the series. It spent a lot of time looking into the past, but then again I think with this first season (which is still very short by ST seasons) they've done a lot of ground work building and setting in place blocks to use for the future. They've used it to clear up 15-20 odd years of story that we missed out on and from that we've got characters with a past to them. We've got a lot of parts setup and in motion now.
Also I said earlier I didn't want to see Picard in the Golem even though it was all setup for it and honestly the way they handled it was fantastic - very very Star Trek.
I think the only thing in the ending that is a little confusing is why Seven is on the ship and not back with the Borg. Then again we can make the assumption that Dr Soone and the other Synthetics will likely be looking after those who survived and that Seven was never fully part of their world.
BrianDavion wrote: people have noted BTW that it was actually several distinct classes that simply looked very similer. and I did see some possiable distinctions yeah.
Will definitely be re-watching it ASAP then!
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Overread wrote: I think the only thing in the ending that is a little confusing is why Seven is on the ship and not back with the Borg. Then again we can make the assumption that Dr Soone and the other Synthetics will likely be looking after those who survived and that Seven was never fully part of their world.
The comment about the synth ban being lifted makes me think that a lot of time has passed between the battle, and them leaving at the end of the episode. It might get back-filled in later.
Agreed, plus we don't know how long Picard was in stasis. Clearly time has passed. Enough to repair the ship and suchlike. Also it seems like Seven and Raffi have a bit of a thing going on too
That said I hope that season 2 might be able to use the foundation that season 1 has built up in order to allow for more time going forward and slightly less going back. Though I'm sure we will see some going back.
I was sad to not see any of the classic Romulan Warbirds which, to my eye, are far more suited to looking menacing and impressive. Especially if they actually decked out the huge open wing area into a massive hanging facility.
I just finished watching the episode and, to be honest, I kinda loved it...
It had the hope, the optimism of Star Trek, there was positivity, redemption, hope...
Sure, there was no real surprises (but I've seen arguments that not having surprises in finales shouldn't be seen as a 'bad' thing and I agree with them) and it did kind of end up being a Mass Effect mimic in LOTS of ways but...
Yeah, I still really loved it. A lot. So much.
Like really.
EDIT: The new ship class designs most certainly looked it could very much fit into Star Trek Onlines design ethos, being a bit of a combination of the Odyssey and like someone said, the Avenger classes.
well is was better than STD but that is a very low bar, terrible acting, stories, direction and a total lack of respect to any of the previous series including the TNG which it was allegedly following up on.
Still hoping real Trek comes back so we can be done with this alternate universe crap, sadly it means we wont have Patrick Stewart etc. but thats a sacrifice I am willing to take if it means a return to good thoughtful stories with heart.
I watched up until the two part finale (leaving that for tomorrow). I have to admit that I got quite nostalgic during the Nepenthe episode (the only one that I'll likely remember the name of) and it was the only one that I genuinely like so far with only a few scenes/plot points I took issue with. It's too bad that Picard doesn't take Troi's advice to act like Picard and instead alternates between his old self and somewhere on the spectrum between naive and idiotic in the next episode. I obviously can't comment about the finale yet but so far I'd say that the average quality is better than season 1 of STD but the number of episodes I actually liked is still less (the Mudd episode and the Pahvo ones being the two I enjoyed in the other show's premiere season). Here's hoping that the finale is better than just meh...
Glad everyone else picked up on the fact they basically just used the plot from Mass Effect. I don’t believe that’s just a coincidence, I really do think the bad writers ripped it off. Just finished the finale and I’m pretty sure I hate this show. It answers the life long question: what if Star Trek was just...Star Wars. The problem is crystallized with the Romulan Samurai guy who keeps getting in Kung Fu sword fights. We’ve never had something like that before in trek but y’know somebodies got to do something Jedi like or something.
I would have much preferred if Picard had just actually died. A noble death, not such a bad way to go. I guess when they go on to make a crappy 2nd season I can comfort myself that it isn’t even the real Picard just a fancy Photocopy, just like this show.
I like the dichotomy of resurrecting a dude via synthetic golem so you can talk about how life only has meaning if you die, and then also installing a countdown timer until the golem body dies again. The whole life only has meaning if you die thing is stupid and is only said as a way to comfort people for whom death is inevitable. The Real problem with immortality is one of resources.
Uh oh, I’ve started ranting... Alright, the beacon has been lit, synthetics call for aid! Zeroed in on their location, opened a wormhole, started to come thru it, big fleets on the other side, and... Oh, someone destroyed the beacon. I guess they didn’t actually need our help after all. Pack it up and go home fellas!
Half called it on the golem; if anyone has any issues with it not being the "real" Picard now, we can safely say that he crossed that bridge the first time that he ever stepped into a transporter.
The scale of the fleets is rather unnecessary, though. The threat would be just as serious if only 1/10 of the ships were involved, without the scenes being full of trash.
Wolf 359 and the Sector 001 battles were huge and looked great, but had nowhere nearly as many ships as the Picard finale or the STD one. It seems like the current approach is to copy/paste the ships until you can't see the starfield behind them, then line them up like Napoleonic infantry and start shooting.
Maybe someone decided that quantity does indeed have a quality of its own.
AduroT wrote: I like the dichotomy of resurrecting a dude via synthetic golem so you can talk about how life only has meaning if you die, and then also installing a countdown timer until the golem body dies again. The whole life only has meaning if you die thing is stupid and is only said as a way to comfort people for whom death is inevitable. The Real problem with immortality is one of resources.
Uh oh, I’ve started ranting... Alright, the beacon has been lit, synthetics call for aid! Zeroed in on their location, opened a wormhole, started to come thru it, big fleets on the other side, and... Oh, someone destroyed the beacon. I guess they didn’t actually need our help after all. Pack it up and go home fellas!
I go the impression that it was the beacon that was actually opening the wormhole, not the other side.
To start speculating / wishlisting for season 2; there was a bit in one of the earlier episodes with Seven of Nine (I think, might have been Hugh) asks Picard to be the voice / face of the Ex-Borg who currently have no home, no freedom, no rights, etc. That would be a really interesting aspect to explore and the Borg are scary enough / make even the Federation paranoid enough to drive some interesting storylines.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Glad everyone else picked up on the fact they basically just used the plot from Mass Effect. I don’t believe that’s just a coincidence, I really do think the bad writers ripped it off. Just finished the finale and I’m pretty sure I hate this show. It answers the life long question: what if Star Trek was just...Star Wars. The problem is crystallized with the Romulan Samurai guy who keeps getting in Kung Fu sword fights. We’ve never had something like that before in trek but y’know somebodies got to do something Jedi like or something.
I would have much preferred if Picard had just actually died. A noble death, not such a bad way to go. I guess when they go on to make a crappy 2nd season I can comfort myself that it isn’t even the real Picard just a fancy Photocopy, just like this show.
the whole synthetic thing is such a long used plot of sci-fi it's a friggen end game crisis in stelleris. it's ahrdly something Mass effect orginated
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Glad everyone else picked up on the fact they basically just used the plot from Mass Effect. I don’t believe that’s just a coincidence, I really do think the bad writers ripped it off. Just finished the finale and I’m pretty sure I hate this show. It answers the life long question: what if Star Trek was just...Star Wars. The problem is crystallized with the Romulan Samurai guy who keeps getting in Kung Fu sword fights. We’ve never had something like that before in trek but y’know somebodies got to do something Jedi like or something.
We've had Klingons fighting with swords and other hand weapons throughout all of TNG and DS9. We just didn't get truly flashy fights because the time/money/effects wasn't there to do it. Should Star Trek not be allowed to evolve with our current capabilities of film-making?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Glad everyone else picked up on the fact they basically just used the plot from Mass Effect. I don’t believe that’s just a coincidence, I really do think the bad writers ripped it off. Just finished the finale and I’m pretty sure I hate this show. It answers the life long question: what if Star Trek was just...Star Wars. The problem is crystallized with the Romulan Samurai guy who keeps getting in Kung Fu sword fights. We’ve never had something like that before in trek but y’know somebodies got to do something Jedi like or something.
We've had Klingons fighting with swords and other hand weapons throughout all of TNG and DS9. We just didn't get truly flashy fights because the time/money/effects wasn't there to do it. Should Star Trek not be allowed to evolve with our current capabilities of film-making?
I anxiously await the scene where they introduce the nuGorn character that can consume enemies with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse in an effort to evolve into MCU style storytelling and film-making. Because that's what Star Trek can... NAY!... *should* be just because it's technically possible.
More of the same from Star Trek since The Search for Spock...character dies, then returned without consequences; Enterprise blows up so we can redesign and sell new toys; etc. They've become their own trope/cliche generating machine since then...those must be two of the only ideas left in the Trek Writer's room these days.
There’s also only Spock and Picard that survived through handwavium that I can think of?
Yar didn’t. Timey-wimey one off, and then her daughter for a few more cameos.
Dax? Kinda the Trill thing, and Ezri wasn’t exactly Jadzia resurrected?
Lore stayed ded, as did Data ( at least physically). Really cannot think of anyone else who got resurrected? Entirely possibly I’m missing someone though.
It probably happened a few times in single episodes here and there. Just as one-off events rather than extensive major events.
I agree that Dax turning into Ezri was pure Trill and Ezri was very much her own character and very distinct from Jadzia.
Kirk sort of did a bit of a death trick in Generations, though that was more getting saved and pushed forward in time (and he did die after that pretty fast).
After that I'm sure there's a few here and there. By and large though things do die in Trek. Though I think until DS9 there weren't that many major deaths - Tasha in TNG was an early death but that was never really revisited again. until DS9.
totalfailure wrote: More of the same from Star Trek since The Search for Spock...character dies, then returned without consequences; Enterprise blows up so we can redesign and sell new toys; etc. They've become their own trope/cliche generating machine since then...those must be two of the only ideas left in the Trek Writer's room these days.
In the distant past, they'd at least typically wait a few years before recycling a character/actor like Yar or Spock. Some like Sisko (my favorite captain) thankfully have yet to have their meaningful deaths negated although I suppose Ezri filled that niche in DS9. I can't tell if they're alternating instant rebirth (Ezri, Sisko, Tucker, Picard)...
Overread wrote: Is Sisko even "Dead". He's just living in the Wormhole isn't he?
At best, he's in another plane of existence outside our space time. I'd say that's a similar enough description to me to an afterlife like Stovokhor especially given the religious significance of the Prophets. YMMV.
Don't forget the Prophets were only ever "Wormhole Aliens" to the Federation who are used to "godlike creatures" such as the Q. If anything some of the religious events that unfolded only did so partly because of key people pushing for them to happen whilst the Prophets sort of went along or nudged things along.
And their predictions and influence was very much curtailed to the region around the Wormhole.
Overread wrote: Don't forget the Prophets were only ever "Wormhole Aliens" to the Federation who are used to "godlike creatures" such as the Q. If anything some of the religious events that unfolded only did so partly because of key people pushing for them to happen whilst the Prophets sort of went along or nudged things along
There's also the season opener of the last season, that reveals Sisko's entire roll as the emissary, and indeed the Wormhole Aliens role as the prophets, is self-fulfilling prophecy from the perspective of linear time. To the prophets, it's just existence since they didn't perceive 'time' as a thing until Sisko explained it to them in the series opener(s).
Well I just got around to seeing the final episode. Consider me underwhelmed and a bit annoyed. This just isn't the Trek I am interested in seeing. Here's to hoping for a good season 3 of the orville.
Thargrim wrote: Well I just got around to seeing the final episode. Consider me underwhelmed and a bit annoyed. This just isn't the Trek I am interested in seeing. Here's to hoping for a good season 3 of the orville.
Have they confirmed a season three of Orville? Last I heard it was still up in the air, but that’s been a bit.
So, just finished watching the finale and my God was it underwhelming. The season as a whole was OK I guess but seemed to move bizarrely slowly for such a short season and looking back I'm thinking that there's actually not much more real content in this season than you'd get in a standard two-parter (OK, maybe a three-parter) of TNG. A lot of it just felt like filler, including entire episodes like the one on Freeworld.
Specifically, what's the deal with Oh? Apparently just a high-ranking officer in two separate empires, which is fine I guess? Then there's Picard's "death". My only question after watching the episode is "why?" What's the point? We get a hint he has some terminal illness early in the season, it's picked up again in the penultimate episode, he dies in the finale then returns to life within five minutes, giving us just enough time for a couple of tearjerker scenes that fall completely flat because the subject of their grief is drinking tea with them ten minutes later. Then there's the fleet battle scene which has been infected by the Star Wars approach to space combat with all your ships lined up like a Roman Legion, ready to throw lasers at each other at the stellar equivalent of touching distance. Finally, there's the plot ripped directly from Mass Effect, a game series that left its fans thoroughly underwhelmed by its plot once it was revealed in its totality. Also, what's the point of Elrond...sorry, Elnor?
I'm hopeful we see a progression in terms of writing and pacing in season 2 and maybe see a Picard a little bit more integrated into the Federation somehow. Trek without the Federation seems to fall a little flat, which is weird because in theory it's a universe that's ripe for some very interesting storytelling outside of the institutions we've all become so familiar with. The central cast has shown some good signs they may prove interesting enough to build a season around (except Elnor) but the overriding feeling I got after watching the full season was "I want a Seven of Nine series".
In terms of filler, I see where people are coming from.
But then, this season is also filling us in on the last 20 years of Federation history to a degree. That in mind, I appreciate the world building.
Litmus for me will be the next season. Now we’re more up to speed, and know for a fact that Picard remains, well, Picard, the writers are in a better place to do more. Because remember, this isn’t just a show for Old Grognards, but one for new fans to discover Star Trek.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: All things are open to criticism. Criticism is not a purely negative thing. One can provide a positive critique. But when a critique is longer than the subject, I’ll ignore it, as I suspect there’ll be nothing constructive about it.
The Art of War by Sun Tzu is a collection of 16 tiny pieces of bamboo all strapped together.
Are you saying you would ignore the Art of War because 98% of every published version of it is centuries of critiques from other military and political leaders?
Sometimes a discussion about something takes time. The definitions of all things takes longer to say than the name of things.
So if Picard hadn't got all uppity would any of this have happened?
Seems like the Romulans are right. The synthetics remain a threat because their memory of this alternate Cough Killer Cthulu Cylon Cough race still exists.
Should cracked the planet's crust with torpedoes once the signalling device was deactivated. Now Metal Cthulu knows someone is out there.
Last time they left a hyper evolved race behind they got the Borg...
Also seems like the Romulans are still a threat, if limited. Spies at the top of the Federation. Looks like a job for Sysko...
Is it me or the Federation royally sucks it ferrying out agents. Their admiral vetting process needs some work. Maybe they should contact the Tal Shiar for some best practices.
A lot of classical Chinese literature consisted of criticism and commentary. To me it appears as though many of China's greatest philosophers realized they'd get more views if they attached their brilliant treatises to older, already-successful works. It's like... if they wanted to make a gritty modern sci fi franchise, they knew they could only get funding by selling it as a commentary on an established IP.
Just watched the two part finale and, other than the torture porn opener and pimp and pirate frenchman episode, this two part finale has to be my least favorite arc in the season.
If Nepenthe was an Inner Light style blueprint of how to do emotion and nostalgia in trek well, this was more like the 2nd season Riker in a coma Shades of Gray clip episode opposite mixed in with a hefty dose of vapid DISCO Battle of the Binary Stars massive fleet "action" and unearned emotion quickly made as redundant as the starship battle and thousands of years of double super secret Romulan society's guiding purpose. Wow... just wow. There is so much wrong with this finale.
I thought TOS established that Vulcans were the descendants of an ancient colony of Sargon’s people..? That might have been one bit of canon they got right?
(Fanon explains that the Mintakans and Vulcanoid Rigelians are also descendants of Sargon’s people.)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I thought TOS established that Vulcans were the descendants of an ancient colony of Sargon’s people..? That might have been one bit of canon they got right?
(Fanon explains that the Mintakans and Vulcanoid Rigelians are also descendants of Sargon’s people.)
I always took vulcanoid species as examples of convergent evolution due to that other ancient race they covered in TNG seeding the galaxy with their own DNA. I remember T'Pol on ENT flat out saying they evolved on Vulcan though but I'll admit I don't recall the details of Sargon specifically from TOS.
Spock theorizes that the Vulcan species might actually be descendants of colonists of Sargon's species, stating "That would tend to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.". T'Pol, however, stated that Vulcans evolved on Vulcan in ENT: "The Forge". Nevertheless, this was roughly a century before "Return to Tomorrow" took place and T'Pol probably just cited the scientific theory of her time. TNG: "The Chase" then established the Romulans, and therefore the Vulcans, to have originated from DNA sequences seeded on numerous worlds by the ancient humanoids 4.5 billion years ago. If Sargon's people resulted from DNA by the ancient humanoids themselves, both "Return to Tomorrow" and "The Chase" are in fact compatible.
If Sargon's people were the primordial progenitors referenced in TNG then Vulcans are no more or less from Vulcan than Earthlings are from Earth. I don't see that personally as compatible with them "arriving" on Vulcan as Narek states but YMMV.
I think the primordial Progenitors died out billions of years ago. Then there are the Preservers and the Aegis, who mess around with endangered sapient species, as well as the various godlike beings...Star Trek’s chronology is like a bowl of dirty spaghetti.
It definitely is but IMO that makes it doubly important to apply the KISS principle when possible. We have a main character flat out saying they evolved on Vulcan (likely supported by copious scientific evidence especially given the race we're talking about) and another theorizing apparently (again.. I don't recall the details of that episode as I haven't watched TOS regularly since the 1980's). I'd go with the former given that it is both later in the real world, more certain, and not definitively negated in subsequent primary canon... though I admit that exact same logic could be applied to Narek's definitive statement to the contrary and thus override it. I just don't have any good will to give the writers in order to assume they were doing it on purpose rather than just fething it up.
A tidbit - I got a survey today from CBSAA about Picard. I'm not supposed to talk specifics, but I was pretty harsh on the show in the opportunities I had. Maybe some others here will get this as well.
I do want to know, are people who where harsh on Picard applying the same criteria to TNG, because TNG has some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal stinkers let's be fair
BrianDavion wrote: I do want to know, are people who where harsh on Picard applying the same criteria to TNG, because TNG has some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal stinkers let's be fair
I mean, the general rule for Star Trek is that only half the episodes are any good (and that is to be fair, probably generous).
BrianDavion wrote: I do want to know, are people who where harsh on Picard applying the same criteria to TNG, because TNG has some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal stinkers let's be fair
On an individual episode basis? Half of TNG is junk.
But the tone and principles of the setting and Federation were consistent and idealistic. There were bad apples, but that was a problem with the individuals, and they were shown to be bad, wrong or misapplying principles.
Picard is doing social commentary exactly the wrong way round. Rather than providing a better and nobler example, they turned everything to crap and required an advanced and intellectual society to lower itself to modern problems so it could be rescued from the gutter by the Great Man.
BrianDavion wrote: I do want to know, are people who where harsh on Picard applying the same criteria to TNG, because TNG has some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal stinkers let's be fair
It really depends on what you value in a show. I don't enjoy the kind of drama that's all about interpersonal conflict and angry people shouting teach other. TNG might have been essentially wallpaper in that regard, but it gave me what I wanted; a group of ostensibly professional people who are all moderately decent to each other getting into memorable (if silly) space adventures. When there was drama, it meant more due to the baseline calm of the show. (Remember when a Cardassian pointing a garage door opener at Picard was considered a tense torture scene?). It probably means I'm lame, but I want Star Trek to be a show that stimulates my imagination rather than my fight-or-flight reflex.
TNG definitely had its share of stinkers (several inexcusably bad), and TOS was *mostly* stinkers (with a few gems).
That said, they were also products of their time, and film/television has grown tremendously since then, and what would fly then wouldn't today in many cases.
Now, again, as I noted earlier, I'm willing to give it a pass because it basically promised and delivered on being what Star Trek always was, including a lot of its classic goofiness. Likewise, Picard hasn't done anything to Star Trek that hasn't already been done to it but they didn't really build anything tremendously special either.
I guess I'd judge Picard has having met the (low) bar, but not really fulfilling anyone's hoped for ideals
I don’t have any rose colored glasses for TNG - almost all of the first two seasons was poor to ‘meh’ at best. I think Picard suffered from too many cooks (executive producers), and tried hard to spread too much butter on too little toast over ten episodes in a story that probably could have been wrapped up in two or three at most.
Vaktathi wrote: TNG definitely had its share of stinkers (several inexcusably bad), and TOS was *mostly* stinkers (with a few gems).
That said, they were also products of their time, and film/television has grown tremendously since then, and what would fly then wouldn't today in many cases.
Now, again, as I noted earlier, I'm willing to give it a pass because it basically promised and delivered on being what Star Trek always was, including a lot of its classic goofiness. Likewise, Picard hasn't done anything to Star Trek that hasn't already been done to it but they didn't really build anything tremendously special either.
I guess I'd judge Picard has having met the (low) bar, but not really fulfilling anyone's hoped for ideals
I disagree on a few things. What I saw of Picard did not feel like Star Trek to me whether or not you feel it achieved certain checkboxes. These days I really would prefer to watch shows that feel like happ background noise than anything like BSG/Breaking Bad/The Wire/The Shield/GOT. If I want to see deeply flawed people destroy their lives over the course of years I can just go to my family reunions.
Second, it is possible to make shows today that are episodic and enjoyable. The Orville hits almost all the notes I want from Star Trek. The formula still flies.
I don't feel like the show tried to maintain continuity with real Trek in tone or spirit, or even in terms of visual storytelling. It's fine for people to like New Coke, but please don't try to gaslight me by telling me it tastes the same as Classic Coke.
Picard is doing social commentary exactly the wrong way round. Rather than providing a better and nobler example, they turned everything to crap and required an advanced and intellectual society to lower itself to modern problems so it could be rescued from the gutter by the Great Man.
Literally everything wrong with the federation in Picard season 1 can be directly traced back to Commodore Oh, the head of Starfleet Security was a Romulan spy.
Sure, there was an admiral angry at Picard, because Picard publicly embarrassed the Federation. But what did she then do after she chewed him out? Exactly what he asked. (And was then overruled by Oh).
Federation Captain kills innocents? He was under direct orders from Oh and threatened with a remote destruction of his ship if he didn't do it. He was then so overcome by guilt he killed himself.
Vaktathi wrote: TNG definitely had its share of stinkers (several inexcusably bad), and TOS was *mostly* stinkers (with a few gems).
That said, they were also products of their time, and film/television has grown tremendously since then, and what would fly then wouldn't today in many cases.
Now, again, as I noted earlier, I'm willing to give it a pass because it basically promised and delivered on being what Star Trek always was, including a lot of its classic goofiness. Likewise, Picard hasn't done anything to Star Trek that hasn't already been done to it but they didn't really build anything tremendously special either.
I guess I'd judge Picard has having met the (low) bar, but not really fulfilling anyone's hoped for ideals
I disagree on a few things. What I saw of Picard did not feel like Star Trek to me whether or not you feel it achieved certain checkboxes. These days I really would prefer to watch shows that feel like happ background noise than anything like BSG/Breaking Bad/The Wire/The Shield/GOT. If I want to see deeply flawed people destroy their lives over the course of years I can just go to my family reunions.
Second, it is possible to make shows today that are episodic and enjoyable. The Orville hits almost all the notes I want from Star Trek. The formula still flies.
I don't feel like the show tried to maintain continuity with real Trek in tone or spirit, or even in terms of visual storytelling. It's fine for people to like New Coke, but please don't try to gaslight me by telling me it tastes the same as Classic Coke.
Not trying to gaslight anything, just calling it how I saw it myself is all. It had all the classic Star Trek technobabble, plot holes, painfully contrived plot mechanisms, mechanically brain dead bad guys, social commentary, etc ad nauseum. This didn't come off to me like BSG or Breaking Bad at all, Picard did not destroy his life, his life was essentially already over and he went on a last great hopping big bender, while everyone else in the show either starts off broken or we see break but then is better (to at least some degree) by the end.
Can episodic stuff be done better today? Sure, I never denied that they couldn't be (though I never made it past the first episode of the Orville myself, came off too much as a Galaxy Quest/Family Guy youtube mashup to me personally and I haven't gotten back into it), and addressed that we have seen the bar raised since TNG's original airing. ST: P is not the height of Star Trek's craft by any means, but it's not its worst either.
That said, I would agree that in terms of visual storytelling, as a show, it's very different from the old shows, I don't think in and of itself that's necessarily a bad thing, just different.
For those who have watched DISCO season 2 and Picard, is the former better/worse/about the same as the latter? I'll be starting in on DISCO now that I'm done with Picard and I suspect I might have to gird my loins given my opinions on STD s1 (bad) and Picard (approaching mediocre).
Yeah, I saw the STD s2 premiere episode on youtube and it had the same effect on me and showcased the worst of the show and the people behind hit unfortunately. I had heard that s2 was better overall but that's not a high hurdle to jump and that's why I asked for a comparison to Picard's opening season.
My problem with STD S2? I honestly can't remember squat about it. I watched every single episode as they came out, but aside from being vaguely disappointed by Spock's hamfisted portrayal, I can't remember what any of it was about. I have no idea what the story was. It was just too incoherent to really stick.
I'm going to kind of talk exclusively about Disco 2x01, because that's really the one that annoyed me most.
1) Technobabble punctuated by excited Tilly swearing. Definitely felt like a parody.
2) Burnham was a better pilot of a craft she, as far as I know, never flew before, far outshining the guy that was supposed to be the skilled pilot, that died horribly.
3) Burnham is right. Always. Everyone who disagrees with her, either gets on board moments later, or dies horribly showing that disagreeing with Burnham is a death sentence.
4) Terrible setup of the last part of the episode, with exposition delivered at superspeed, resulting in a 5 second CGI 'moneyshot' solving a problem that in previous shows, would have been an entire episodes worth of content.
5) This is delving into my memory a bit, but I'm sure there was plenty of grimdark miserypron in the episode too, with people all being horrible to each other and being NuBSG rejects.
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So, usually the rest of the Disco episodes in S1 and S2 have SOME of that, but it's quite often dotted around a little bit and, especially in the rest of S2, is a LOT longer between the bad parts, and Christopher Pike does embody everything about the classic Trek Federation we want (As does, for that matter, the rest of the Enteprise crew we see. - Number 1 is great!).
warboss wrote: For those who have watched DISCO season 2 and Picard, is the former better/worse/about the same as the latter? I'll be starting in on DISCO now that I'm done with Picard and I suspect I might have to gird my loins given my opinions on STD s1 (bad) and Picard (approaching mediocre).
Surprisingly, I think Picard is worse then Discovery. Thing about Discovery is at least it's it's own thing. I don't think it's ruining anything (some could argue it's ruining Spock) but it's its own show I and so that crew is doing its own thing. At least it is a crew of uniformed starfleet personnel doing Starfleet stuff. Picard on the other hand I actually do think it is ruining Star Trek. Like this band of misfits feels so forced. You see, they're cool because two of the characters smoke and one does does drugs and is also an alcoholic! That screams Star Trek! Once again it asks the question: What if Star Trek was Star Wars? The band of random misfits coming together to save the day is a big Star Wars trope but even Star Wars does not have smoking in it. This one needed an extra edge so they put in some smoking and eye gouging. And as others have asked what is up with the sexual tension between the Brother and Sister Romulans? I really think that was just someone saying "Incest is popular now, Game of Thrones was popular because of that so we better put incest incest in". You can just tell this whole thing was a poorly written piece of crap.
Now a lot of people here are now saying well TNG sucked anyway so whateves. Well fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but a lot of people really did like TNG a lot and that was the audience they were relying on for this show. In that way ST Picard is ruining Star Trek, at least for the fans of that generation of Trek who the show is supposed to be attracting anyway.
I honestly hope that season 2 of this show is somehow unexpectedly cancelled.
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Frazzled wrote: So if Picard hadn't got all uppity would any of this have happened?
Seems like the Romulans are right. The synthetics remain a threat because their memory of this alternate Cough Killer Cthulu Cylon Cough race still exists.
Should cracked the planet's crust with torpedoes once the signalling device was deactivated. Now Metal Cthulu knows someone is out there.
Last time they left a hyper evolved race behind they got the Borg...
Also seems like the Romulans are still a threat, if limited. Spies at the top of the Federation. Looks like a job for Sysko...
Is it me or the Federation royally sucks it ferrying out agents. Their admiral vetting process needs some work. Maybe they should contact the Tal Shiar for some best practices.
I had similar thoughts. The secret cabal of Romulans wasn't wrong was it? The Reapers are out there and the way the synthetics acted in the Finale showed they were pretty dumb and easily manipulated. Also, now apparently you can just completely replace anyone with a golem that looks exactly like them but they are an android so they should be programmable. Even the BattleStar Galatica didn't have to deal with that kind of problem!
Surprisingly, I think Picard is worse then Discovery. Thing about Discovery is at least it's it's own thing. I don't think it's ruining anything (some could argue it's ruining Spock) but it's its own show I and so that crew is doing its own thing. At least it is a crew of uniformed starfleet personnel doing Starfleet stuff. Picard on the other hand I actually do think it is ruining Star Trek. Like this band of misfits feels so forced. You see, they're cool because two of the characters smoke and one does does drugs and is also an alcoholic! That screams Star Trek! Once again it asks the question: What if Star Trek was Star Wars? The band of random misfits coming together to save the day is a big Star Wars trope but even Star Wars does not have smoking in it. This one needed an extra edge so they put in some smoking and eye gouging. And as others have asked what is up with the sexual tension between the Brother and Sister Romulans? I really think that was just someone saying "Incest is popular now, Game of Thrones was popular because of that so we better put incest incest in". You can just tell this whole thing was a poorly written piece of crap.
Now a lot of people here are now saying well TNG sucked anyway so whateves. Well fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but a lot of people really did like TNG a lot and that was the audience they were relying on for this show. In that way ST Picard is ruining Star Trek, at least for the fans of that generation of Trek who the show is supposed to be attracting anyway.
I honestly hope that season 2 of this show is somehow unexpectedly cancelled.
A bit of a necro but, after a necessary break from Trek post weeklong streaming of Picard, I've started watching DISCO season 2 and am conflicted. I don't know if my expectations have changed or if season two of DISCO (at least up to the Talos IV episode that I'm currently on) is the better of the two so far. The free intro episode that they put up on youtube for a few days was so far tied with the Klingon episode IMO as the worst of the season. It's approaching decent with the exception of those two. What's holding it back IMO is the wooden performance of Michael Burnham (I'm really tired of the always so earnest breathless whisper delivery of every line regardless of whether it's a replicator lunch order to a final goodbye to a supposedly dying friend) but that's balanced by a suprisingly good performance by Pike's actor. I still have my issues with the latter in terms of him frequently being berated/disrepected by subordinates without reprecussion though but he's the high point of the show so far. I suppose the bordering on elder verbal abuse Picard got inured me to the plain jane disrepct that Pike encounters, lol. I'm very unhappy the a certain character's resurrection (about the only way you can make a poorly done death of a good character even worse is by negating the meaning of the sacrifice by a shoehorned resurrection) and the turning of the quirky but loveable Tilly into a seemingly a caricature of her season 1 self. The klingorcs are still horrible but at least their hair is back so that's a relative baby step improvement over season 1 despite the alopecia justification being utterly ridiculous. Also, if I were prone to sea sickness, the frequent askew meandering camera angles on character close ups are bothersome but I don't know if that's a showrunner thing or just a certain repeat director's favorite as I've noticed it alot but haven't been recording exactly where as it feels pervasive. Whereas Picard felt like it was made by a bunch of people who liked Firefly/Mass Effect/Star Wars/BSG but were forced to work instead on Star Trek, this at least feels this season so far like an attempt to at least make Star Trek (albeit a flawed one). I watched episode recaps as they were released so I know the whole AI/Control/Section 31 storyline up to and including the finale and I suspect that since I really disliked that in the reviews that my feelings will go downhill for the rest of the season as it is slowly creeping into the forefront.
The thing that I've found most surprising is how much better the show looks compared with Picard in terms of special effects and set design. Holy gak does Picard look like the red-headed bastard stepchild in terms of quality for both! I suppose they're spending the millions per episode on Picard on the hefty fees of Patrick Steward and the other dozen or so producers because comparatively they're definitely not visible in the visual quality.
AduroT wrote: Discovery was better the more it had Pike in it. It definitely gets dumber as the season goes on.
That is true. Pike ended up being one of the most likable Captains of any Trek show even though for some reason he had to check with Burnham on everything he did...
Yeah, that is part of what I was referring to in addition to Cmdr. Sassy Saru mouthing off repeatedly to the captain. It still pales though in comparison to the disrespect repeated Savior of the Federation Admiral Picard got from everyone though. Then there is emo beatnik Spock being more volatile than a klingon, and seemingly everyone willing to violate every Starfleet standing order and their captain's direct orders at the drop of a hat with no reprecussion (no suprise there given the lack of consequence for Burnham doing the same to open the series). With the nacelles seemingly trimmed down (am I imagining that?) and much less fidgetspinning everywhere even the Discovery is less grating this time around. Again, I don't know if that's genuine on my part or just a response to the La Sirena in Picard being even less trekky. I've just got the finale (part 2) and whatever short treks I can fit in before my cutoff.
Yeah, my enjoyment has decreased now that the show has pivoted back to Burnham being the center of the show/galaxy instead of the ensemble shifting center of focus that Trek has traditionally been and that at least part of this season was as well. The quotient of stupid stuff has increased including copious amounts of gratuitous sassy girl power moments more at home in a YA book or CW show as well as nonsensical choices and unearned emotion.
Still, overall, it's an improvement for me at least compared with season 1 of both DISCO and Picard. Of course, I've still got the utter stupidity of the fleet battle with seemingly self replicating shuttle fighter swarms and the needless sacrifice to set up season 3 coming up so there is that... Backhanded praise is still about the best I can do other than saying that I potentially finally see hope in a consistently acceptable trek show if they ever greenlight the Pike era show with him, Spock, Culber, and Number 1 on the Enterprise.
Oh yeah, just discovered the Short Treks. Some of them are quite good. In fact the last one is sort of a prequal to Picard and was pretty cool. However, the best one involved the guy who plays Archer as a starfleet officer and some tribbles.
I didn’t even know the short treks were a thing until the full series brought in a character introduced in one. They did the Previously On thing with clips of her and I was like what? Did I miss an episode? And I had to dig around to figure out what they’d done.
REMINDER: The Enterprise in “Star Trek: The Next Generation” had a deck called Cetacean Ops, where dolphins and whales were crew mates who helped with navigation. It was referenced twice in the show, but never seen! (1/4)
According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual (1991), “guidance and navigation research is conducted by twelve Bottlenose Dolphins (Tursiops truncatus) and Pacific Bottlenose Dolphins (Tursiops truncatus gilli), who are supervised by two Takaya’s Whales.” (2/4)
I like to believe this Starfleet-marine mammal partnership began with the events of “Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home,” when Spock and Kirk rescued whales aboard a Klingon Burd of Prey to save future Earth. (3/4)
Sadly, it was deemed prohibitively expensive for a meager TV budget to show onscreen, so our TNG cetacean crew remains forgotten lore. However, I suspect the character of Darwin in a future sci-fi series, “SeaQuest DSV” (which shares many Trek writers) was an homage... (4/4)
ADDENDUM: As a few astute Trekkies have pointed out, the in-canon references mentioned above are: a door in the TNG episode “We’ll Always Have Paris” labeled TURSIOPS CREW FACILITY; also, Geordi asks a visiting Ferengi if he’s seen the dolphins yet in “The Perfect Mate.” (5/4)
I did not know/blanked this information out.
Imagine all that Star Fleet academy training and your first assignment is to clean out the whale tanks.
TNG had some weird ideas. As I've often said, if we applied the same standards we do to Picard and discovery to TNGs first season... we would not be kind
BrianDavion wrote: TNG had some weird ideas. As I've often said, if we applied the same standards we do to Picard and discovery to TNGs first season... we would not be kind
Genuinely a good thing to keep in mind.
Most SciFi I love had a ropey start, taking a season or so to really find its feet.
BrianDavion wrote: TNG had some weird ideas. As I've often said, if we applied the same standards we do to Picard and discovery to TNGs first season... we would not be kind
No one WAS kind to TNG’s first season. Please stop pretending beloved classics are just as bad as an unpopular show you like and that everyone else only likes them out of nostalgia, and also is wrong for enjoying them over your show.
First disingenuous people are all like “Star Wars and Empire really we’re just as dumb as this sequel, and that’s why you should like this sequel.” Then they brought the same logic to Star Trek. When will it end? Do we need to pretend that Robocop was just as tired as the remake?
I liked Robocop 2 but I'm a big fan of the Cain mech design. Plus, it was the second movie I ever saw in the theater (at 13 years old too!). I won't lie and say it was as good or obviously as unique as the original but it's a guilty pleasure of mine just like AVP (the first one... not the abomination that followed!) and the first Starship Troopers movie.
As for TNG, most fans agree the 1st season was the worst in the run but most still say it felt like Star Trek. I'm not sure the same can be said of STD and STP. I just hope that the hopefully upcoming Pike show will be the lucky third times the charm attempt.
edit: Corrected to second movie. My first was actually the TMNT live action one. And the third was STVI: Undiscovered Country! It's not the best trek movie (ST II: WOK holds that position for me) but VI is my favorite for that sentimental reason.
I meant the Sam Jackson remake. I got no beef with Robocop 2. True Story: my elderly aunt took little me to see Robocop 2 in the theater because she thought Gremlins 2 sounded too violent.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I meant the Sam Jackson remake. I got no beef with Robocop 2. True Story: my elderly aunt took little me to see Robocop 2 in the theater because she thought Gremlins 2 sounded too violent.
Ah, my bad. I somehow switched remake to sequel. In my case, it was an older cousin who took me.
As for TNG, most fans agree the 1st season was the worst in the run but most still say it felt like Star Trek. I'm not sure the same can be said of STD and STP. I just hope that the hopefully upcoming Pike show will be the lucky third times the charm attempt.
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except they didn't back when TNG first aired you heard a LOT of "this isn't star trek" a lot of that mind you was pretty much just people complaining about any change, I agree TNG's first season felt a lot of ST:TOS.. which is no suprise considering they basicly where using recycled and rejected TOS scripts. I'm not touch STD for this argument simply because I've not watched eneugh of it. but Picard feels reasonably like star trek to me, but it feels like a logical progression of star trek. trek being dark and willing to admit the federation isn't perfect is not new.
Don't belive me?
ohh and here's a fun one, Capt. Sisko commits warcrimes (seriously there's no way everyone sucessfully evac'd that world)
ohh and here's a starfleet admiral attempting to launch a coup.
One way to think of it is that The Original Series, TNG and Voyager all happen at times when the Federation is broadly stable and safe. Sure there's the odd Borg Cube here and there; but by and large the Federation at its core is a happy safe place and peace is maintained. Klingons make a lot of noise but keep to their boarders; Romulans make flybys in the neutral zone but don't breach it openly; Cardassian's just keep policing their own people.
DS9 was the darker underbelly of when things go - wrong. When the balance of power gets upset and factions start to push at their boundaries. We also got to see life outside of the Federation - the effects of conquest and occupation by species and forces that weren't the Federation. Remembering that DS9 is very new ground for the Federation. It's on the frontier near to a generally hostile faction who don't uphold Federation values.
Though we also see factions like the Ferangi making steady shifts toward the Federation way of thinking. That sweet cloying root-beer of insidious temptation toward the Federations approach to life that steadily changes them. We see them adopting equal gender rights and even some socialist concepts toward things like universal health etc... (believe things ilke that are mentioned in passing in some of the changes brought forward, though mostly downplayed next to the gender issues).
Even at their worst, didn’t all the DS9 meme era act like competent professionals who mostly avoided pointless interpersonal drama? Sure, for many the lack of such drama makes TNG-era seem boring, but for me it made the era enjoyable so that even a bad episode felt like it had comfortable background noise.
From what I’ve seen in Picard, this basic competence and decency were lacking, making the people of the federation feel like the people of today(‘s dramas) rather than the better-than-modern people of a generally improved society. It would be like watching a legal drama set in the year 2000 and having all the characters relate to each other like slave-owning plantation owners and carpetbaggers.
No there were more than a few selfish people and tensions within the Federation even down to things like Section 32 (or whatever it was called). There were even those willing to ally with the Founders.
Don't forget until DS9 the Federation had never really been part of a major intergalactic war. They'd had battles and fights, but never the need for an actual warfleet. Plus in the distant past the Klingon Empire was a very powerful ally. By DS9 the Klingons are suffering identity crisis and suffering their own internal political struggles. They are not the grand army that they once were - formidable yes, but not the might that they once were at their height. They've softened.
Meanwhile forces like the Romulans and Cardassians were a threat, but were mostly content to sit behind their neutral system boundaries and to only pose and threaten where they could in subtle ways. They weren't wiling to go into all out war.
The Founders were willing to go into full on war and with their clone warriors and their primary worlds being beyond a single choke point (Wormhole) and with a single purpose and unity that the Federation lacked, they could ramp up their war machine very quickly (not to mention they already had it ready to start with).
Picard presents nothing new in the concept of the Federation abandoning its ideals at the top end. If anything it simply reinforces what we've seen in DS9, the Film between Nemesis and First Contact (I forget its name) and many other subtle events through the various series. Picard just differs in that its a very long portrayal of failure on the part of the Federation - its a major failing rather than a smaller one.
It doesn't reinforce but rather ratchets it up several levels. That's not just my opinion but also that of the showrunners and main star who made it a point in interviews to specifically point out that they DIDN'T want to return to the same type of setting/Federation we had previously seen. You're completely free to like the change but not to pretend that it hasn't been changed.
As Bob correctly stated, the selfish to borderline evil Federation citizens were the rare exception even if they were the outsized focus of episodes. It's just not exciting to focus an episode or story arc on Lt. Joe Blow simply being a model Federation citizen and doing his job competently. For every Sloan or Eddington there were 100+ named and unnamed Starfleet personnel and Federation citizens simply doing their job within the letter and spirit of the Federation's laws. That's like saying the entire Bajoran religious caste was evil and/or a puppet of the Pah Wraiths just because Winn was and that a future show where literally all but one of them are evil is consistent with DS9. Exceptions don't work that way.
warboss wrote: It doesn't reinforce but rather ratchets it up several levels. That's not just my opinion but also that of the showrunners and main star who made it a point in interviews to specifically point out that they DIDN'T want to return to the same type of setting/Federation we had previously seen. You're completely free to like the change but not to pretend that it hasn't been changed.
As Bob correctly stated, the selfish to borderline evil Federation citizens were the rare exception even if they were the outsized focus of episodes. It's just not exciting to focus an episode or story arc on Lt. Joe Blow simply being a model Federation citizen and doing his job competently. For every Sloan or Eddington there were 100+ named and unnamed Starfleet personnel and Federation citizens simply doing their job within the letter and spirit of the Federation's laws. That's like saying the entire Bajoran religious caste was evil and/or a puppet of the Pah Wraiths just because Winn was and that a future show where literally all but one of them are evil is consistent with DS9. Exceptions don't work that way.
Sure, and that's understood to be the case in Picard. The federation hasn't gone "completely evil" they've made a knee jerk decision in response to bad events in the past. Which is... pretty typical of the federation to be frank.
Banning an entire branch of, highly benifical, science because of a bad event in the past? That's completely in character with the federation. Genetic engineering is a pretty important field of study.
we're not seeing "the entire federation is evil"we're seeing one person in a position of power is evil. we're seeing an admiral who doesn't hero worship Picard
It’s not even a person who turned evil, it’s an evil* person who infiltrated and worked their way up the ranks.
As for the Admiral, Picard, having just given a tv interview where he condemned Starfleet, went to her with zero evidence of his claims and wanted to be reinstated and put in charge of a ship and crew and let go investigate his hunch. She turned him down, bluntly. When he contacted her later with actual compelling evidence, she promptly dispatched one of the largest fleets we’ve ever seen to back him up.
*By evil we mean an extremest fringe group working on their beliefs in secret to prevent the eradication of all life in the galaxy from a threat that turns out to be very real and would in fact wipe out all life in the galaxy, and who was never shown to be directly working against anything else the Federation was working on besides that, though admittedly with quite considerable collateral damage.
Also note that Picard hadn't been an admiral for 15 years or more at that point. It wasn't just the TV interview, it was the fact that he'd been out of the game for so long that he's not even remembered (a subtle hint he gets at the entrance when he has to introduce himself). Whilst he was never bombastic, he was casually used to being well known and respected. When he stepped down he was at the top of his game. One of the best Starfleet had to offer who had saved the Federation several times over and dealt with huge issues.
Riker, in contrast, was able to regain his position and lead the fleet; granted he was likely a bit more diplomatic and there was actual evidence of something going wrong at that stage. Yet he was still able to swing command of the most powerful warship of the Federation and its military fleet. It was basically another sign that Picard has moved back and that someone new fills his shoes now in the Federation - Riker.
Federation has always had lofty ideals that are never perfectly met. Heck even in the Kirk days the "Prime Directive" was broken almost every single week and that was one of the core mandates that Kirk was supposed to be upholding and spreading to new worlds that joined the Federation.
If Kirk/Picard/Janeway/Sisko and basically every other captain we see can break the Prime Directive - then power plays and other aspects that are not from purely "good" sources can certainly influence the Federation
Heck don't forget during TNG the max warp speed starships were allowed to use was reduced as a result of basically terrorist style scientific displays in order to prove that the highest speeds did come with some local side effects. Science that the federation had ignored. Again it wasn't being "evil" it was just being self serving/human.
The Picard series Federation isn't evil, its just not perfect.
But it also has widespread xenophobia, poverty and drug addiction resurging out of nowhere, after each and every captain of each series telling us those things have been completely eliminated...
Voss wrote: But it also has widespread xenophobia, poverty and drug addiction resurging out of nowhere, after each and every captain of each series telling us those things have been completely eliminated...
Wide spread anti-romulan xenophobia is hardly new to the federation though. if you watch a few key TNG and DS9 episodes you can definatly see signs that this is pretty well.. normal.
Voss wrote: But it also has widespread xenophobia, poverty and drug addiction resurging out of nowhere, after each and every captain of each series telling us those things have been completely eliminated...
But not in the Federation. We see one person on Earth who has fallen into drug use and that's basically it.
The rest are Romulan infiltration agents.
After that the worst xenophobia we see isn't in the Federation - its in worlds in/near too the old Neutral Zone between the Federation and Romulan Empire. Ergo space that was never part of the Federation and is only now under the sketchy protection of a small force that are outside of the Federation. It was never Federation space.
The rest also happens in areas that are outside of Federation Jurisdiction and/or outside of their space entirely. Don't forget in DS9 Quarks relative was into gun and weapon smuggling/trading (a fact that Quark often lamented on how much money there was in guns compared to bar-work). Heck he was willing to trade horrible weapons of mass destruction to both sides of a conflict to prolong it. These things happened; its just they were a backdrop/background to a single episode or two here and there; rather than the prime focus of a mini series.
And yes whilst the Federation is open to all its always had elements of racism and hostilities between groups.
With Raffi I always got the sense that there would always have been Federation means available to help her but... She didn't want it. All she wanted to do was wallow in her own self pity and misery.
I was honestly worried about a lot of the New-Battlestar-Galactica-isation of the Federation (I still am sad about the sacrifice of Stargate Atlantis on that same altar) but I think the show balanced it perfectly. Everything 'bad' either fell down to
1) Individuals personal choices and failings.
Or
(2) Commodore O was a baddy.
Just a point but "drugs are not a problem" doesn't have to mean there are no drug users. Just that the issue is so tiny that it doesn't really register as a problem at the general population level. There could still be thousands of abusers and users and problem people, but they are spread really really thin over the whole population. Thus making it an "invisible" issue to the population at large.
Voss wrote: But it also has widespread xenophobia, poverty and drug addiction resurging out of nowhere, after each and every captain of each series telling us those things have been completely eliminated...
But not in the Federation. We see one person on Earth who has fallen into drug use and that's basically it.
The rest are Romulan infiltration agents.
After that the worst xenophobia we see isn't in the Federation - its in worlds in/near too the old Neutral Zone between the Federation and Romulan Empire. Ergo space that was never part of the Federation and is only now under the sketchy protection of a small force that are outside of the Federation. It was never Federation space.
Well, no. Its in the opening when the workers on Mars are functionally 'race-baiting' the android. Nothing suggests that's even vaguely rare.
We get to see Romulans on Earth, but only as servants.
Or the Hate-News interview.
None of those are 'never Federation space.' Its part of the established situation for the series.
I think I'm just use to seeing different classes in Trek fleet shots.
