I mean, it all seems to be very much a "Legends of Tomorrow Season 1 but we're supposed to think the Time Masters are the good guys for a while."
I imagine Sylvie's motive is going to end up being 'no fate but what we make, no destiny but what we make for ourselves.'
For a God of Mischief, a predetermined outcome is their anathema. - Like Loki said, if you know he's always going to betray them, that's not mischief. It's the uncertainty that is key.
On the other hand, we're halfway through, we should have seen something more about that. Then again, we've not seen much of anything.
I think there might be something to that 'not actually a Loki, but someone related to one' idea. - I don't know about that.
But yeah, Glorious Purpose = destroy the occulus Sacred Timeline
Compel wrote: I mean, it all seems to be very much a "Legends of Tomorrow Season 1 but we're supposed to think the Time Masters are the good guys for a while."
I imagine Sylvie's motive is going to end up being 'no fate but what we make, no destiny but what we make for ourselves.'
For a God of Mischief, a predetermined outcome is their anathema. - Like Loki said, if you know he's always going to betray them, that's not mischief. It's the uncertainty that is key.
Yeah, it'd be weird if Loki had some sort of predetermined destiny of betrayal...
Jadenim wrote: I’m guessing they’re using the Volume to film this, given the absolutely epic scenery for this episode?!
It's mostly filmed on-location in Georgia (which doesn't HAVE a volume set yet ... ).
The Book of Fett was mostly filmed in the Volume, and Obi-wan is likewise being done that way - but those are also filmed in Cali, so no need to venture to redneck county, GA).
regarding Sylvie, I've got a guess for her background and motivation given on what we've seen thus far... this is only a guess based on the VERY limited things we've seen, but she seems to not be "of asgard" and she does not remember her mother. So my guess is she was adopted by someone else (or even raised by her biological parents) in fact I'm guessing we're going to discover THIS is why Loki is one of the most common varients
I agree that we could've done with a bit more of the arc, but it was a very enjoyable episode nonetheless. It good to see that they homaged British 70's sci-fi by setting it in a quarry :-) and there was some suspicious 'wheezing groaning' noises in the shot of the town build around the rocket.
But who leaves an evacuation until the very moment when Worlds Collide?.
Hopefully next week we should see some real movement on the plot.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding Sylvie, I've got a guess for her background and motivation given on what we've seen thus far... this is only a guess based on the VERY limited things we've seen, but she seems to not be "of asgard" and she does not remember her mother. So my guess is she was adopted by someone else (or even raised by her biological parents) in fact I'm guessing we're going to discover THIS is why Loki is one of the most common varients
Weirdly enough I'm thinking the same thing. Apparently in the MCU aliens are now canonically terrible with metaphors? It was Drax's defining trait, and definitely a running gag for Loki. So because Sylvie is at least able to recognize a terrible metaphor- I'm thinking she's human, or human raised. The self-taught magic thing would back that up as well, since with very few exceptions humans live in a world without magic.
@straightsilver isn't it great that EVERYONE in this series is an unreliable narrator, has a wildly imperfect understanding of the situation or has some secret motive? It's like watching Clue.
Ahtman wrote: Episode 3, to me, had the feel of a Dr. Who episode. ie The Doctor and his companion are stuck on a planet about to come to an end and have to escape.
Not really a plot thing it just gave off that vibe.
Oh, it entirely did. Specifically the episode with Martha and jack at the end of time with the evac ship. It didn't have the cannibal people, but otherwise had much the same feel. Even the flashback scene to the mind probe had me thinking, 'wait, is this trying to make me think of the new doctor?'
@Gitzbitah- only if it goes somewhere. Overdoing the unreliable narrator can just leave a big mess on the floor.
One thing I cannot get after episode 3 - shouldn't the Lokis have very easy time to get through all these enforcers? They are asgardians after all = even the weakest is several times stronger/tougher etc. than the human. In the TVA their powers etc. do not work but in other places they should be able to win easly unless faced by the Hulk/Eternals etc. level baddies.
Shadow Walker wrote: One thing I cannot get after episode 3 - shouldn't the Lokis have very easy time to get through all these enforcers? They are asgardians after all = even the weakest is several times stronger/tougher etc. than the human. In the TVA their powers etc. do not work but in other places they should be able to win easly unless faced by the Hulk/Eternals etc. level baddies.
Yay, its been weirdly inconsistent all the way through. At some points they're struggling a lot, and at other points Loki is catching a falling building with his mind. He also isn't using his illusions and displacement abilities much at all (and badly when he does, like with the old woman), even though in the films he seems to make it a basic part of his fighting style. Even in last episode, the idea that an enchanted biker guy was throwing him around the department store was rather weird.
They should have trivially pushed through these mooks, and spent a lot more time playing word games with each other. Brute physical challenges from normal mortals just aren't relevant.
Shadow Walker wrote: One thing I cannot get after episode 3 - shouldn't the Lokis have very easy time to get through all these enforcers? They are asgardians after all = even the weakest is several times stronger/tougher etc. than the human. In the TVA their powers etc. do not work but in other places they should be able to win easly unless faced by the Hulk/Eternals etc. level baddies.
Loki isn't Asgardian, he's a Frost Giant. A diminutive one at that.
Shadow Walker wrote: One thing I cannot get after episode 3 - shouldn't the Lokis have very easy time to get through all these enforcers? They are asgardians after all = even the weakest is several times stronger/tougher etc. than the human. In the TVA their powers etc. do not work but in other places they should be able to win easly unless faced by the Hulk/Eternals etc. level baddies.
Yay, its been weirdly inconsistent all the way through. At some points they're struggling a lot, and at other points Loki is catching a falling building with his mind. He also isn't using his illusions and displacement abilities much at all (and badly when he does, like with the old woman), even though in the films he seems to make it a basic part of his fighting style. Even in last episode, the idea that an enchanted biker guy was throwing him around the department store was rather weird.
They should have trivially pushed through these mooks, and spent a lot more time playing word games with each other. Brute physical challenges from normal mortals just aren't relevant.
Spoiler:
Ah. But it’s not a human world, is it?
Asgardians and Jotunn are far from the only beings with superior strength. Indeed, us weedy ‘oomies tend to be notable for being weedy, sans technology.
Plus, yes they’re hiding in another apocalypse, but without the knowledge or who would and wouldn’t survive. The more damage they do, the more they risk the TVA showing up and taking them back into custody.
We even saw a certain physical match during the scrap on the train.
Why punch someone’s lights out when you can spend a fraction of a second tricking them or mentally dominating them?
StraightSilver wrote: On her TVA file though she is listed as Sylvie Laufeydottir, with Laufey as her biological father.
So it would seem her birth is at least the same as Loki's.
Of course the TVA file could be lying....
I can’t help but wonder if Sylvie doesn’t turn out to be Sylvie Lokidottir. Would not keep with the comics canon of either Lady Loki, or Sylvie the Enchantress. But I would make an interesting twist, and would give Loki a reason to free all of his horned brethren Outside of the Pompeii catastrophe.
I think you guys are making huge assumptions that all of the TVA Variants are Humans or have Human level powers.
I kind of think Mobius is going to turn out to be one of Kangs variants. We know he exists. HE should have the most Variants of anybody, even Loki. So where are they?
Shadow Walker wrote: One thing I cannot get after episode 3 - shouldn't the Lokis have very easy time to get through all these enforcers? They are asgardians after all = even the weakest is several times stronger/tougher etc. than the human. In the TVA their powers etc. do not work but in other places they should be able to win easly unless faced by the Hulk/Eternals etc. level baddies.
Yay, its been weirdly inconsistent all the way through. At some points they're struggling a lot, and at other points Loki is catching a falling building with his mind. He also isn't using his illusions and displacement abilities much at all (and badly when he does, like with the old woman), even though in the films he seems to make it a basic part of his fighting style. Even in last episode, the idea that an enchanted biker guy was throwing him around the department store was rather weird.
They should have trivially pushed through these mooks, and spent a lot more time playing word games with each other. Brute physical challenges from normal mortals just aren't relevant.
Spoiler:
Ah. But it’s not a human world, is it?
Asgardians and Jotunn are far from the only beings with superior strength. Indeed, us weedy ‘oomies tend to be notable for being weedy, sans technology.
Plus, yes they’re hiding in another apocalypse, but without the knowledge or who would and wouldn’t survive. The more damage they do, the more they risk the TVA showing up and taking them back into custody.
We even saw a certain physical match during the scrap on the train.
Why punch someone’s lights out when you can spend a fraction of a second tricking them or mentally dominating them?
Expedience has a lot going for it.
I see absolutely no reason to assume that every rando they get into a punch-out with is superhuman, especially when the overall competence level of the opposition is 'abysmally poor' (and apparently immune to self-interest).
The point is we're seeing far too many physical matches, and they're defaulting to brawling instead of tricking or dominating. They try poorly* from time to time, but then just give up and go for punches.
*especially with the old woman. That felt like a D&D party attacking and failing, bluffing and failing, and then trying for disguise self and bluff again, despite there being no reason the target would fall for it after multiple other attempts.
The train was basically bluffing into the next fight, with a brief digression into actual story for a few minutes.
Then the final obstacle course happened, and they completely ditched being any sort of being clever for just fruitless punching of pointless mooks.
---
And at this point, they aren't hiding. That isn't even vaguely on this episode's agenda.
And at this point, they aren't hiding. That isn't even vaguely on this episode's agenda.
There's no need to hide while they're in the midst of the Apocalypse event.
The one thing that did occur to me the other day is that if the TVA picks up on a variant the instant it causes a timeline branch, Sylvie should have been erased the moment she was born simply for being female when 'prime' Loki is male. Either her mother was on the run until Sylvie was able to run for herself, or the TVA are working through a backlog of variants rather than picking them up as they occur, or they haven't actually been around for very long - in cosmic terms, at least... Loki is around a thousand years old, so assuming Sylvie is the same age, that would put the TVA's creation somewhere inside that time period.
That latter idea would mean that the one 'sacred' timeline shown on the TVA's monitors would have branches from back before they started doing their thing, but Variants from those branches wouldn't necessarily be a problem unless they cross into the main timeline for some reason.
And at this point, they aren't hiding. That isn't even vaguely on this episode's agenda.
There's no need to hide while they're in the midst of the Apocalypse event.
But that's what I mean. The fact that they're in an Apocalypse event is completely undesirable at this point. They aren't hiding. They don't want to be there. Having TVA agents show up would actually be fantastic for them, as its a way out and a way back to both/either of their 'plans.'
Everything (by anyone's definition of 'everything') is off the rails, and having Hunter Team #465 show up with a new MacGuffin is the most straightforward solution. They can be basically gods for a fight because the narrative says so, go back to the elevator, and move on with letting the audience know what's going on.
Either her mother was on the run until Sylvie was able to run for herself, or the TVA are working through a backlog of variants rather than picking them up as they occur, or they haven't actually been around for very long
That's a very linear look at things. The Sylvie variant matters because she's been butchering TVA squads and taking their stuff. The TVA seems to exist outside of time, so the question of 'how long' doesn't really matter. A 'backlog' doesn't matter, nabbing hundreds of variants of Loki was apparently trivial and even Cosmic level stuff is treated like paperweights in the TVA. The big thing is she's been rather unique in being a problem for their hunter squads, not how 'long' she's been a variant.
That's a very linear look at things. The Sylvie variant matters because she's been butchering TVA squads and taking their stuff. The TVA seems to exist outside of time, so the question of 'how long' doesn't really matter. A 'backlog' doesn't matter, nabbing hundreds of variants of Loki was apparently trivial and even Cosmic level stuff is treated like paperweights in the TVA. The big thing is she's been rather unique in being a problem for their hunter squads, not how 'long' she's been a variant.
But it does matter. Once they enter a timestream, they're locked into following it in a linear fashion. Her very existence would have triggered a nexus event, because it's a variance from the 'true' Loki. The logical thing would have been for the TVA to delete her timeline before she was born, but for some reason they have waited until she was old enough to put up a fight and go on the run, which doesn't seem consistent with what they've shown about how quickly variant timelines need to be dealt with before they are a problem.
That's a very linear look at things. The Sylvie variant matters because she's been butchering TVA squads and taking their stuff. The TVA seems to exist outside of time, so the question of 'how long' doesn't really matter. A 'backlog' doesn't matter, nabbing hundreds of variants of Loki was apparently trivial and even Cosmic level stuff is treated like paperweights in the TVA. The big thing is she's been rather unique in being a problem for their hunter squads, not how 'long' she's been a variant.
But it does matter. Once they enter a timestream, they're locked into following it in a linear fashion. Her very existence would have triggered a nexus event, because it's a variance from the 'true' Loki. The logical thing would have been for the TVA to delete her timeline before she was born, but for some reason they have waited until she was old enough to put up a fight and go on the run, which doesn't seem consistent with what they've shown about how quickly variant timelines need to be dealt with before they are a problem.
That's because time travel plots never work if you think about them for more than a few seconds. Just got to let it go and assume the people with the power to travel through time are too dim to or unoriginal to think of more than the most basic ways to use it. After all, they have time travel. It's not like they're accustomed to having to live with consequences
I will forever love the scenes in Bill and Ted where they “abuse” time travel to have future versions of themselves go to the past to leave stuff waiting for them they need in the present.
Shadow Walker wrote: One thing I cannot get after episode 3 - shouldn't the Lokis have very easy time to get through all these enforcers? They are asgardians after all = even the weakest is several times stronger/tougher etc. than the human. In the TVA their powers etc. do not work but in other places they should be able to win easly unless faced by the Hulk/Eternals etc. level baddies.
Loki isn't Asgardian, he's a Frost Giant. A diminutive one at that.
You are correct but still all the races from the 9 Realms seems to be physically superior to humans. Freya is Vanir so also technically not an Aesir/Asgardian (although much closely related to Asgardians than a Jotunn), and she would wreck this enforcers with easy. Remember Loki's fight with the Captain America? In MCU Cap is stronger than in comics, and still he had no chances against Loki, which was a correct portrayal of what you should expect from a 9 Realms ''gods''.
not Fing Fang Foom, but a different dragon. I actually already have the POP! Fig for it but I don’t remember it’s name and know nothing about it. You can google it up if you want further spoilers.
As for the cage fight
Spoiler:
thats definitely gotta be Abomination. They gave him his fin ears from the comics and everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also isn’t there a separate MCU movies thread?
Ok, as a guy who’s all about spoiler tags being unnecessary because you shouldn’t read a thread about something if you don’t want spoilers for it, we should really move the Shang Chi to a separate or movie thread. Putting a movie trailer into a tv thread and having posts that are entirely a single spoiler tag with no context what it’s a spoiler for is just something with the potential to bite someone.
AduroT wrote: Ok, as a guy who’s all about spoiler tags being unnecessary because you shouldn’t read a thread about something if you don’t want spoilers for it, we should really move the Shang Chi to a separate or movie thread. Putting a movie trailer into a tv thread and having posts that are entirely a single spoiler tag with no context what it’s a spoiler for is just something with the potential to bite someone.
This movie has been brought up and discussed in this thread before so it seemed odd to already have talked about it here, shown the original trailer here, and now want to make a new thread.
Voss wrote: Its a weird thing, because the character clearly doesn't have a reason to share at all. But we're 3 of 6 episodes in and the villain has presented no motivation to all this. Its a weird place to be. Maybe Mobius is her boyfriend and its a revenge plot. Maybe its just purely survival. Maybe she's secretly Kang. Possibilities should be narrowing at this point in the arc, and instead its just as completely open-ended as it was in episode one.
Still think episode 3 was mostly an enchanted Loki.
Firmly believe the two will realize they need to cause a super event during the end of the world so TVA has to show up to correct it before the end of this world, giving them the chance to escape.
However, if Loki pulls out the real remote device have faked the destruction of the device before, that will truly make most of episode 3 pointless and make me very angry...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Honestly? Loki infuriating the audience in that way would be Peak Loki, and I’m up for that.
That was my first thought as well. I don't think that is going to happen but honestly it seems right up his alley to do such a thing to better learn about Sylvie. What would annoy me is if they did the whole "it was all in his mind and was an enchantment none of this happened".
MDSW wrote: Firmly believe the two will realize they need to cause a super event during the end of the world so TVA has to show up to correct it before the end of this world, giving them the chance to escape.
Pretty sure they established that won't work. This is planetary bodies colliding, not much room for sending up flags when the slate is being wiped clean on this scale.
However, if Loki pulls out the real remote device have faked the destruction of the device before, that will truly make most of episode 3 pointless and make me very angry...
I think it'd be great, because it'd be evidence that someone was thinking- and that would be both Loki and the writers. They need to show that they grasp he isn't a punching comic relief character like some sort of Captain America sidekick.
This show really needs to step away from the Marvel 'beat-em-up while quipping' formula.
Episode 3 already feels mostly pointless. A few insights into Loki (lots of which we already knew) and a dribble from Sylvie plopped into the middle of the train ride is pretty much the sum total of the episode.
Lance845 wrote: Does anyone else think that maybe the time keepers are just another Loki who is constantly trying to keep himself from messing with his own plans?
"The only thing that can stop me now is me...feth."
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Honestly? Loki infuriating the audience in that way would be Peak Loki, and I’m up for that.
I don't think Loki, the show, is infuriating the audience. It's just that the third episode was pretty gak. The first two episodes set up a great mystery that the third episode failed to capitalise on. We learnt nothing about Sylvie outside of some vague references, and Loki didn't do what Loki should have done and press here on details.
People often use the title 'filler episode' erroneously if an episode doesn't have any major reveals or big action pieces. This episode had a big action piece (and a couple of smaller ones), and didn't have any reveals, but it also didn't service the story. Loki and Sylvie spent the entire episode trying to escape a dying moon and ended the episode still trying to escape a dying moon. In the interim we learnt next to nothing about a character that was given an entire episode of focus. And then the narrative just kind of stopped. It didn't have an ending.
This was a filler ep. Perhaps the most filler-y ep of all 3 shows so far.
We learned Sylvie didn't have a mother most of her life and had to learn magic on her own which is why her skillset differs from Loki.
We learned that the TVA is staffed by mind-controlled/wiped variants.
trexmeyer wrote: We learned Sylvie didn't have a mother most of her life and had to learn magic on her own which is why her skillset differs from Loki.
Or she's lying. But even so, that was basically 5 minutes of runtime padded by lots of running about and punching nobodies.
The dining car scene was nice for the characters, but nearly everything before or after that was a waste of runtime.
We learned that the TVA is staffed by mind-controlled/wiped variants.
Well. Reinforced that.
Its been dangling since episode 1 (though some of those threads could be dismissed as 'they forgot to tell the actors not to act obviously American')
But the jetski magazine and all the little personal touches for various characters were big flashing 'mindwipe' signs.
Folks seen the news today about Marvel Disney going full meta and changing the end credits scene for Wandavision, possibly due to whats happening in Loki?
Those who found it are saying they have also made some minor changes to the terrain not that I noticed, but the main change is a mirror like reflection of a humanoid shape floating down to the cabin, and on the mountain behind the shadow of the shape seems to be Strange.
Had a look myself a little while back and its there and I don't recall it being there when the series first aired.
If true, that’s real next-level stuff! I’ll also say well played to Marvel / D+ for taking advantage of an opportunity to do something different because it’s a digital streaming service.
I see what they’re talking about, and I don’t know if it wasn’t there before because it’s Subtle. It had to watch and rewatch to spot it while specifically looking for it.
Yeah, I'd seen a bit of the twitter video so I knew when to go to on the credit scene, but its really odd, almost like Predator camouflage, but you can make out a persons shadow on the mountain behind, and I've seen a blown up freeze frame that really looks like a silhouette of Strange.
For anyone looking its just before it zooms in on the cabin while the camera is moving closer to Wanda on the porch, coming down from the left side of the screen with the mountain behind it and its heading toward the cabin itself.
Yeah its the change to the scenery which is why folks think its a change Marvel has done on purpose. In fact one of the suggestions I've seen is that it happened/changed after second Loki episode, so after Sylvie fractured the time line.
This was 100% my take. The whole episode has an air of "tell so the audience doesn't realize we're showing".
Overall, I liked it as a bit of character building more than the first episode. I'm just not in love with the TVA stuff and this gave Tom a lot more to work with as the star of the show.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: A little surprised Loki never tried calling for Heimdall. I don’t know where they’re at in the timeline though if that was a viable option. I suppose instead we’ll get the TSA searching apocalypses for them coming in and providing an exit.
Last Avengers Loki knew, the Bifrost was broken. He specifically mentions that Odin must have used some dark magics to send Thor to earth to stop him in the film.
A TVA save from Mobius seems likely, if its not all a fantasy to begin with. A little questionable that they'd actually pick the right apocalypse given they only found Sylvie in the first place due to the gum, but I don't put the show above such things.
It's possible that Loki is trying to get caught (ie help the TVA catch Sylvie).... his idea of changing time by getting the rocket of the ground and escaping would create a new timeline and bring the TVA running.
AegisGrimm wrote: They are also in 2077 (if I remember correctly). Heimdall and Asguard are long gone, so no bifrost save.
But Loki does not necessarily know that. I guess he would know Asgard does get destroyed, because he read the file and shed that tear, but I don’t recall if he knows what year he’s in.
Möbius gets pruned and it’s like Ok, that’s a bold choice. Then Loki gets pruned and it’s Ok, that’s a dumb choice or we find out next episode that pruned doesn’t mean death it just sends you somewhere else. Of course I was wrong and we find it out in the post credit. I’d kind of wondered if previously.
MOBIUUUUUSSSS!
Poor guy just wanted a jet ski. I hope Loki manages to save him. I'm starting to wonder if the Lokis' new plan, since the last few have failed gloriously, might involve some form of technology assisted Sylvie mass enchantment that gives all of the TVA back their memories. Once you get past the programming, they seem like mostly decent variants.
Which is kind of appreciated, as they pulled it off well in WandaVision quite successfully.
If they follow the same rough pattern, next week will be the big And This Is What’s Really Going On, with the final episode the big scrap.
Which I’m entirely there for.
I'm not sure they could pull 'she did nothing wrong, and really, didn't she make the real sacrifice?' over on the audience again.
So Wandavision doesn't seem like a good model.
...but watching the episode, I might well be wrong about that.
---
Oh, good they
Spoiler:
created their own monster
glad they ticked that bingo box.
Interesting thing, when Loki is ranting at Mobius about his origin, shadows creep over his shoulders (both shoulders, simultaneously, but not his face), and there isn't really any indication of where they're from. A panel of light also scrolls over the wall when they throw Loki back in the 'time cell torture chamber,' and it isn't being cast by the time door.
After all the buildup of Hunter B-15 as a hard-boiled, tough-as-nails bruiser, she sure went down like a chump.
---
So, that was an ending. Extra layers are nice, but... maybe too many for two episodes?
Spoiler:
I'll never understand what the benefit of 'disintegrators are really teleporters' trope. At least, not in-universe. They're a convenient narrative device, but why kick your problems down the road?
Richard E Grant! Comic book costume! We've come to Asgard by mistake! Stop saying that, Loki, of course he's the @+*%-ing variant
I feel like between that and Vision's halloween costume in WandaVision, they should have effectively put to bed any argument that movie costumes should be 'comics accurate'...
insaniak wrote: Given that with pretty much every superhero movie release there's someone complaining about the costume not being 'right'... yes, apparently.
Eh. I tend to discount the complaints of the 'someones.' If I had to spend time listening to them, I'd never get anything done. Especially on super hero movies. The litany of trivial complaints never ends.
For people who aren't disturbingly invested in the fandom equivalent of 'button trivia,*' I don't think its a real question.
*too many years dealing with civil war re-enactors masquerading as self-appointed historians. The pure level of obsession with the right number and 'type' of buttons is seriously disturbing.
On the plus side, the people obsessed with buttons and costumes are generally too self-absorbed to do any real damage.
Pruning doesn't mean deleted. It means being cut off of this branch of the timeline? Looking in the background of the post credit scene it looks post apocalyptic? So maybe they are sent to the original, pre-Sacred Timeline, timeline. After the multiverse war, the original timeline or timelines. Or, they are sent to the end of the Sacred Timeline, a fixed point where the Time Keepers end the Sacred Timeline but don't have any plans beyond it?
I thought the Timekeepers looked a bit lame - even for a TV budget (and the MCU shows try and keep it at 'movie' level)! So good to see there's a 'proper' reason for it. :-)
The Post credit thingy - the costumes of the extra characters looked so 'cosplay' to me that I think he's ended up in a timeline where MCU heroes are fictional characters. Which means, I guess, that there is a multiverse.
All the TVA material seems to imply variants come in 5s. The instructional video had 5 variants and the pamphlet "so you're a variant" also has 5 on the cover. However, if the 4 variants in the post credit scene are all Loki variants we have one too many? So I don't think Sylvie is actually a variant....
She seemed to know the Timekeepers were just automata, certainly she didn’t seem surprised.
And what is the true purpose of the Divine Timeline? You don’t go to all that effort for nothing.
Then there’s the question of what Sylvie’s actual time crime was…. It could’ve been preemptive, and we’re in Set Fate territory, with the abduction an attempt to prevent her variant doing what we’ve seen to date. Or, it could’ve been an invented charge in an attempt to recruit a potent agent. Certainly all we saw was Judith Grimes playing with her toys before she was Timenapped.
And what was with that divergence when Loki and Sylvie looked resigned to their fate?
She seemed to know the Timekeepers were just automata, certainly she didn’t seem surprised.
And what is the true purpose of the Divine Timeline? You don’t go to all that effort for nothing.
Then there’s the question of what Sylvie’s actual time crime was…. It could’ve been preemptive, and we’re in Set Fate territory, with the abduction an attempt to prevent her variant doing what we’ve seen to date. Or, it could’ve been an invented charge in an attempt to recruit a potent agent. Certainly all we saw was Judith Grimes playing with her toys before she was Timenapped.
And what was with that divergence when Loki and Sylvie looked resigned to their fate?
So many questions!
Spoiler:
I'm sure we're for a @"It was Renslayer all along!" moment - with or without cute song. Although whether she is an agent or the head honcho, I'm not sure.
The TVA.... it must be 'real' to a certain extent. It can time travel easily. It's outside time. Can detect paradoxes as they occur. It can erase said paradoxes. Has it just been taken over? Someone did what Loki originally planned to do, just first?
Incidentally, I watched Loki ep 4 and then the last 2 episodes of WandaVision - OK, about what I expected for WV, except the Agnes angle, that was super unexpected for me...
And, as an aside, I am a big Kathryn Hahn fan, so glad she got a super juicy part to play in the last two episodes.
Then there’s the question of what Sylvie’s actual time crime was…. It could’ve been preemptive, and we’re in Set Fate territory, with the abduction an attempt to prevent her variant doing what we’ve seen to date. Or, it could’ve been an invented charge in an attempt to recruit a potent agent. Certainly all we saw was Judith Grimes playing with her toys before she was Timenapped.
And what was with that divergence when Loki and Sylvie looked resigned to their fate?
Spoiler:
It seemed fairly clear that Sylvie's 'crime' was just existing. She says herself that it was being born a girl, and the TVA stepped in once that caused a big enough divergence. Presumably young enough Asgardian children aren't different enough for a gender-swap to impact the timeline in any serious way until they hit whatever age she was when the TVA arrived.
And the divergence with Loki and Sylvie was them crushing on each other.
Maybe. We're fed the narcissism line pretty quickly, but there's nothing to say that's actually true.
They might have been something else going on...
(Personal theory- one of the 'debris pieces' looked a bit different to me. More like a ship maneuvering than a chunk of rock falling)
Even without that, the divergence could well be something else. But I am disappointed that episode 3 ultimately was as empty and pointless as it seemed to be. They could have had the five minutes of relevant material here, and done something else with a whole episode.
I don't think Renslayer is the Big Bad - unless she took over immediately after failing to abduct Girl Loki and killed off the timekeepers then.
As for where the variants go - we already know that if variants are in an area which is just about to apocalypse, they can't alter the timeline. Maybe they're dumping them there? In which case, why not just kill them? It's a death sentence anyway. Unless there's some kind of time loop.
And what (other than recruiting) would the TVA do with variants it doesn't find guilty? What's the point of the trial?
And why are all the TVA human? They mentioned fighting against Kree variants, why don't they recruit them?
Loki appears be about to tell Sylvie that he knows they get out of this. My guess is he knows this because he realizes that future them is going to trigger the divergence that rescues past them.
As for the Timekeepers.... it's got to be Kang. Much like Agatha was always Agatha, dropping Renslayer in there and having her be anyone other than Renslayer. Kang's whole thing is using time travel to ensure his future comes to pass. He's 100% the kind of character who would declare a specific timeline "sacred" and create an entire bureaucracy to enforce it through ruthless destruction of any dissent.
Voss wrote: Maybe. We're fed the narcissism line pretty quickly, but there's nothing to say that's actually true.
They might have been something else going on...
(Personal theory- one of the 'debris pieces' looked a bit different to me. More like a ship maneuvering than a chunk of rock falling)
Even without that, the divergence could well be something else. But I am disappointed that episode 3 ultimately was as empty and pointless as it seemed to be. They could have had the five minutes of relevant material here, and done something else with a whole episode.
Yeah, episode 3 definitely didn't set up a possible romance between the two Lokis that could be absolutely crucial to the end of the show. I mean, it definitely didn't play a major role in episode 4. At all. Not once was it even brought up.
Voss wrote: Maybe. We're fed the narcissism line pretty quickly, but there's nothing to say that's actually true.
They might have been something else going on...
(Personal theory- one of the 'debris pieces' looked a bit different to me. More like a ship maneuvering than a chunk of rock falling)
Even without that, the divergence could well be something else. But I am disappointed that episode 3 ultimately was as empty and pointless as it seemed to be. They could have had the five minutes of relevant material here, and done something else with a whole episode.
Yeah, episode 3 definitely didn't set up a possible romance between the two Lokis that could be absolutely crucial to the end of the show. I mean, it definitely didn't play a major role in episode 4. At all. Not once was it even brought up.
Lets just say episode 3 was empty and pointless!
Or say.... the events of that world are so important to the sacred timeline that returning there and changing them in some way creates a divergence too large for the TVA to control or something of that nature.
Voss wrote: Maybe. We're fed the narcissism line pretty quickly, but there's nothing to say that's actually true.
They might have been something else going on...
(Personal theory- one of the 'debris pieces' looked a bit different to me. More like a ship maneuvering than a chunk of rock falling)
Even without that, the divergence could well be something else. But I am disappointed that episode 3 ultimately was as empty and pointless as it seemed to be. They could have had the five minutes of relevant material here, and done something else with a whole episode.
Yeah, episode 3 definitely didn't set up a possible romance between the two Lokis that could be absolutely crucial to the end of the show. I mean, it definitely didn't play a major role in episode 4. At all. Not once was it even brought up.
Lets just say episode 3 was empty and pointless!
Or say.... the events of that world are so important to the sacred timeline that returning there and changing them in some way creates a divergence too large for the TVA to control or something of that nature.
Voss wrote: Maybe. We're fed the narcissism line pretty quickly, but there's nothing to say that's actually true.
They might have been something else going on...
(Personal theory- one of the 'debris pieces' looked a bit different to me. More like a ship maneuvering than a chunk of rock falling)
Even without that, the divergence could well be something else. But I am disappointed that episode 3 ultimately was as empty and pointless as it seemed to be. They could have had the five minutes of relevant material here, and done something else with a whole episode.
Yeah, episode 3 definitely didn't set up a possible romance between the two Lokis that could be absolutely crucial to the end of the show. I mean, it definitely didn't play a major role in episode 4. At all. Not once was it even brought up.
Lets just say episode 3 was empty and pointless!
Sounds good to me. If screwing up someone's plans, a walk through falling meteors and a brief train conversation about the absolute basics of your history is what passes for 'romance' these days, I don't know what to say.
And lets face it, they aren't going to walk out into the next phase of MCU shenanigans with a stable Loki and a healthy romance. They like their cliched tropes- if she walks out of this alive, its going to be because of a sudden yet inevitable betrayal.
Loki DOES have depth. But he is also prideful, shallow, and self centered. Anything that strokes his own ego he drifts towards like a moth to the flame. Just look at that play he had written about himself so he could lounge about pretending to be his dad eating grapes and watching Matt Damon.
Making a connection with himself is just about all he could ever hope for consciously or sub consciously.
That being said, I don't think shes really a Loki. I think her origin is going to be closer to the comics. Shes going to have been created by a Loki. She's a weapon pointed at the TVA by a different Loki playing a bigger game. Probably the one that caused the massive branch and "saved" them.
I was referring to the idea that he 'falls in love' based on a frantic jog across a doomed planet and a five minute conversation on a train.
I know that's an action film trope, but its still really dumb.
Yeah, but the TVA doesn't just work on the past, it work on the future as well. Could be that that was the moment they started falling for each other, and while it would take a lot longer for them to fall for each other properly, since that was the start it was the point of variance.
I was referring to the idea that he 'falls in love' based on a frantic jog across a doomed planet and a five minute conversation on a train.
I know that's an action film trope, but its still really dumb.
I don't think we saw every single interaction they had the entire time they were on the planet. Just the important ones they thought they could fit in to the show without going over too much.
Or I am wrong and we are just supposed to assume these characters only exist when the camera is rolling. Even though that seems to go against everything Marvel has been doing with the backtracking and timey whimey stuff.
Definitely doing it wrong. Not creating scenes for future use or anything like they have been known to do. Memories or such to look back upon. Flashbacks.
Graphite wrote: Yeah, but the TVA doesn't just work on the past, it work on the future as well. Could be that that was the moment they started falling for each other, and while it would take a lot longer for them to fall for each other properly, since that was the start it was the point of variance.
It got 3/4s of the way to the 'red line' just by the two of them sitting silent for a few seconds under a chunk of falling moon the size of Chicago. The TVA was boggled by whatever could be happening 'so fast.' Had it gone on any longer, things would have just broken. Somehow.
Edit: Oh. That's all it is. They were going to die and one or both are integral to the 'sacred timeline.' They weren't supposed to be there, had failed, given up and were moments away from 'rocks fall, everyone dies' and that would have wrecked everything.
Graphite wrote: Yeah, but the TVA doesn't just work on the past, it work on the future as well. Could be that that was the moment they started falling for each other, and while it would take a lot longer for them to fall for each other properly, since that was the start it was the point of variance.
It got 3/4s of the way to the 'red line' just by the two of them sitting silent for a few seconds under a chunk of falling moon the size of Chicago. The TVA was boggled by whatever could be happening 'so fast.' Had it gone on any longer, things would have just broken. Somehow.
Edit: Oh. That's all it is. They were going to die and one or both are integral to the 'sacred timeline.' They weren't supposed to be there, had failed, given up and were moments away from 'rocks fall, everyone dies' and that would have wrecked everything.
That's probably why all the other variants of Loki still live (especially if pruners have a teleport Lokis to the Loki holding tank)- it seems the TVA has a strict no-killing Loki policy at the highest levels. If true, it is definitely more evidence of the Loki's behind it all theory.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Slight tangent for the thread, but Black Widow goes up on Disney+ extra pay content next Friday.
I wasn't going to (AUD$35 come on... the Blu-Ray won't cost that much!), but then my state went into another COVID lockdown that runs right past the movie's release date.
If the lockdown continues, I won't really have much of a choice.
Graphite wrote: Yeah, but the TVA doesn't just work on the past, it work on the future as well. Could be that that was the moment they started falling for each other, and while it would take a lot longer for them to fall for each other properly, since that was the start it was the point of variance.
It got 3/4s of the way to the 'red line' just by the two of them sitting silent for a few seconds under a chunk of falling moon the size of Chicago. The TVA was boggled by whatever could be happening 'so fast.' Had it gone on any longer, things would have just broken. Somehow.
Edit: Oh. That's all it is. They were going to die and one or both are integral to the 'sacred timeline.' They weren't supposed to be there, had failed, given up and were moments away from 'rocks fall, everyone dies' and that would have wrecked everything.
Ah, I think you got it Voss. That certainly makes sense to me anyway.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Slight tangent for the thread, but Black Widow goes up on Disney+ extra pay content next Friday.
There is no way in God's green Earth that I'll ever pay what Disney wants me to for "premier access" ON TOP of having a subscription with them.
So I'll either wait or find other ways, if for some reason I'm just in such a damn hurry.
premier's not a bad way to do it if you have the following conditions.
1: Have a good eneugh TV set up that you won't feel too put out by missing it on the big screen
2: have a number of people who all want to see the movie (if a movie ticket is 15 bucks a person, and the premier access is 30 bucks, 3 people wanting to see it gives you a decent eneugh deal)
if those conditions are met it's not a bad deal.
Also do I understand right and you get access to the movie perminatly unlocked?
Albertorius wrote: For example, Raya and the Last Dragon (Disney's "we're totally not doing an AtlA movie, honest" movie) got out of Premier a couple weeks ago.
Albertorius wrote: For example, Raya and the Last Dragon (Disney's "we're totally not doing an AtlA movie, honest" movie) got out of Premier a couple weeks ago.
It’s a fee to watch the movie without being spoiled first. Otherwise while I do have a D+ sub because I like how they’re doing their series and want to support that, I’ll be going to my usual places to watch the premium movies because I ain’t paying that extra to watch a movie alone.
I do kinda wonder that the entire creation of the Loki/Sylvie Nexus event is that "Loki must not die", although that kinda plays hell with the fact that in the main movie timeline, he very obviously does.
So it makes me think that Nexus events are truly just another false control mechanism to enable the scheme of whomever is actually running the TVA, rather than something "real" that need to be stopped.
This is the equivalent of saying "I already pay for cable. Why would I go to the movies when the movie is just going to show up on Showtime eventually anyway?"
You pay for cable (disney +) and the movie will end up on cable eventually. In the meantime you now have 2 options on the movies release. Go to the theater for 15 a ticket per watch of pay 30 to have you and everyone you know watch it as many times as you want at home.
Lance845 wrote: This is the equivalent of saying "I already pay for cable. Why would I go to the movies when the movie is just going to show up on Showtime eventually anyway?"
I generally do that. Well, wait until films pass out of movie theaters, as I haven't had a pleasant movie theater experience in decades.
You pay for cable (disney +) and the movie will end up on cable eventually. In the meantime you now have 2 options on the movies release. Go to the theater for 15 a ticket per watch of pay 30 to have you and everyone you know watch it as many times as you want at home.
?? That's about double the ticket price of movies around here, and I usually watch films (that I actually want to see) alone, and I never watch them multiple times in a 3 month period. The math here makes no sense.
Lance845 wrote: This is the equivalent of saying "I already pay for cable. Why would I go to the movies when the movie is just going to show up on Showtime eventually anyway?"
You pay for cable (disney +) and the movie will end up on cable eventually. In the meantime you now have 2 options on the movies release. Go to the theater for 15 a ticket per watch of pay 30 to have you and everyone you know watch it as many times as you want at home.
Do what you want.
Sure, exactly the same. I will, indeed, do what I want.
Lance845 wrote: This is the equivalent of saying "I already pay for cable. Why would I go to the movies when the movie is just going to show up on Showtime eventually anyway?"
I generally do that. Well, wait until films pass out of movie theaters, as I haven't had a pleasant movie theater experience in decades.
You pay for cable (disney +) and the movie will end up on cable eventually. In the meantime you now have 2 options on the movies release. Go to the theater for 15 a ticket per watch of pay 30 to have you and everyone you know watch it as many times as you want at home.
?? That's about double the ticket price of movies around here, and I usually watch films (that I actually want to see) alone, and I never watch them multiple times in a 3 month period. The math here makes no sense.
And thats cool for your experience with movies. I, as a contrasting perspective, signed up for movie pass back when it existed because I go to the movies all the time with people and have seen movies in theaters multiple times.
Like.. Endgame? I saw that at least 3 times in theaters with different people. For me and all those friends to pay a total cost of 30.00 is a solid deal.
Not everything is made for all people. It's a nice option for those that get benefit from it.
To me it just reads like a blatant cash grab that'll just drive everyone who doesn't see the value and can't/won't want to see it in the theate to pirate it.
It would make sense to me to have a time limited rental at a lower price for those who neither want to watch it multiple times in a time limited access period or in a room full of other people.
Anyway, the notion that this is a 'cash grab' is ludicrous. Disney/Marvel do not want to release their next big blockbuster anywhere except cinemas where it will rake in hundreds of millions of dollars. I doubt BW is a billion dollar club film, but there was a solid $600-$800m for that film just waiting to be taken... until the pandemic hit, and the movie was delayed for a year, and countries still aren't past it, even ones that were relatively fine for months (like mine!).
I'm not about to go so far and say that Disney is doing us a favour by putting this out on D+, but at the same time this is something they wouldn't do if they had a choice.
Albertorius wrote: There is no way in God's green Earth that I'll ever pay what Disney wants me to for "premier access" ON TOP of having a subscription with them.
I said the same thing. Then my state was put on lockdown past the movie's release date.
Azreal13 wrote: Theatres are fine, it's other people who're the problem.
I dunno.
Paying the thick end of £20, only to share the experience with a bunch of ill mannered tosspots in an auditorium that reeks of vomit, and the speakers had crapped out and not been replaced since you worked there in….erm…..2004ish?
Yeah. I’ll cough up to watch it in my time, on my terms,
My worst MCU experience was when I was off doing a Loot run. Went to see Black Panther.
Only there were two feckless adults with an unhappy child. For clarity, I am not blaming nor criticising the kid here. On account they’re a kid.
But throughout the screening? Mummy I’m bored. Daddy I don’t want to watch this. Screech screech screech screech screech daaaaddddddyyyyyyyyy screech some more mummy I hate you I don’t want to watch this daddy daddy daddy daddy daddy DADDY DADDY DADDY DADDY REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Shame on those parents for not just getting up and effing off. Sprog was clearly spoiled, you could tell by the lack of effort the parents put in. Still not the sprogs fault. Parents should’ve sacked up and left.
Instead, they subjected the rest of the audience to their pathetic parenting skills.
Azreal13 wrote: Theatres are fine, it's other people who're the problem.
I dunno.
Paying the thick end of £20, only to share the experience with a bunch of ill mannered tosspots in an auditorium that reeks of vomit, and the speakers had crapped out and not been replaced since you worked there in….erm…..2004ish?
Yeah. I’ll cough up to watch it in my time, on my terms,
It's like you didn't read my post.
If you're paying £20 to go to anything other than one of the top end new places then thats your issue, even our local is half the price with up to date equipment. Christ, even our really tiny one is better than that.
Azreal13 wrote: Theatres are fine, it's other people who're the problem.
Oddly given the fupwit quota in The Shire I can't recall any errant behaviour at the local picture house, bar maybe some snoring (me) having been bribed with booze to go see Cpt Corelli and promptly nodding off
I've certainly nothing anecdote worthy, it's just the general jostling, rustling and muttering.
One particular couple stand out I guess, who by sheer coincidence were sat nearby the last few occasions I was in a theatre. The local is licensed, and as they got their buzz on they'd do the classic old person "who's she?" "what have I seen him in before?" thing, but as they sobered up they either fell asleep or shut up.
Or that time a girl screamed really quite loudly at a jump scare in It Part 2. But then I'd gone with her, so kinda have to take that on the chin.
It's all easily mitigated by choosing an off peak showing or waiting until the movie's past its first flush though, and seeing a movie in a near empty auditorium is one of life's little joys.
To bring this to the MCU
Remember when hulk threw Loki around? Everyone was laughing so hard I didn't hear his line afterwords, which I found funnier later on
Which is why I like sitting down with a movie and enjoying it myself. I can have captions on.
Azreal13 wrote: Theatres are fine, it's other people who're the problem.
I dunno.
Paying the thick end of £20, only to share the experience with a bunch of ill mannered tosspots in an auditorium that reeks of vomit, and the speakers had crapped out and not been replaced since you worked there in….erm…..2004ish?
Yeah. I’ll cough up to watch it in my time, on my terms,
It's like you didn't read my post.
If you're paying £20 to go to anything other than one of the top end new places then thats your issue, even our local is half the price with up to date equipment. Christ, even our really tiny one is better than that.
And when your town only has one cinema, on the remote arse end? And all other options involve a lengthy, convoluted and ultimately expensive trip elsewhere on public transport which may or may not be bothered to run for the trip home?
Cinema is sadly dying for those very reasons. I will of course miss it, as a thing. I’ve saw a great many films in the cinema for the first time as a youngster.
But…..when my big old tv at home gives a better picture, and I’m not subjected to the whims of arseholes other than myself? I’ll opt for home viewing every time. Because at least then should someone prove incapable of shutting up? I can pause it, kick them out my private property, and rewind or even restart.
And when your town only has one cinema, on the remote arse end?
My town does only have one cinema on the remote arse end.
It still doesn't resemble what you're talking about. At least it hasn't for decades.
Plus a remarkable number of the population has access to this thing that's like a small bus, only you get to keep it at home and take it yourself when and wherever you want.
I have to wonder how much hyperbole goes into some of these accounts of theater experiences. Reeking of vomit? Like, really? If that's actually true, that says more about whoever is running the establishment than it does theaters themselves. It seriously baffles me hearing the horror stories here. I live in the biggest city in Canada and love going to movies on opening weekend, and only once have I ever witnessed someone sabotage the show for everyone else and the staff quickly dealt with that person.
My favorite cinema is in what used to be an old Kroger grocery store. It has 8 screens, and charges $4.75 a ticket for matinees. Couple that with spending around 6 dollars for a large popcorn and two large sodas, and it's one of my favorite places to go, Covid notwithstanding. It's where I have seen most of the movies I have watched in-theatre for my adult life (I'm 39). And either before or after we'd hit up the Chinese buffet next door.
And when your town only has one cinema, on the remote arse end?
My town does only have one cinema on the remote arse end.
It still doesn't resemble what you're talking about. At least it hasn't for decades.
Plus a remarkable number of the population has access to this thing that's like a small bus, only you get to keep it at home and take it yourself when and wherever you want.
Sadly my car is broken. Speed sensor went, and thanks to a previous owner bogging the electrics, it’s not worth the repair bill.
Buses run more or less when and if they want, and certainly not at times when I might actually be able to get out there.
Add in nearly £20 for a ticket, and it’s just not worth my effort.
If I lived in a City? Or somewhere with a more central cinema, sure. But I don’t, so they can shove it and I’ll watch (legally) in the comfort of my own home, or on the train as will be the case here.
To pull this slightly back... I've got Wednesday off so I have my Midweek Marvel planned. Lunch with Loki then off to to the flicks for Black Widow. The delays to 'Natasha Romanov: the Movie' and it's place in the timeline means I should need to be scouring the screen for TV show tie-ins. Looking forward to it.
I'm wondering if they filmed some new scenes in secret to bring it up-to-date with the current state of the MCU - even if it's just a revamped after credits scene.
I’m going to predict end credits with Doctor Strange/Scarlet Witch/Loki showing up, quipping about the cute alternate timeline she’s in, and then bringing her back to the main one to replace the dead version for reasons.
When Wandavision was airing there was a immense amount of speculation and it was almost always came down to Mephisto. You can go back in this very thread and find posts saying Mephisto did it and/or that Mephisto was being introduced. it wasn't just here it was all over the place to the point where it has become a bit of a joke.
Ahtman wrote: When Wandavision was airing there was a immense amount of speculation and it was almost always came down to Mephisto. You can go back in this very thread and find posts saying Mephisto did it and/or that Mephisto was being introduced. it wasn't just here it was all over the place to the point where it has become a bit of a joke.
I remember. It seemed to just come out of nowhere and I wondered if there was some inspiration for the theory, or whether somebody just went "Hey! Maybe it's Mephisto!".
It's because in the comics, they retconned Wanda's ability to rewrite all of existence in House of M to be a result of Mephisto boosting her powers when she was unstable to cause the event for raisins. Therefore he must be behind it here as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkNorfolk wrote: I'm wondering if they filmed some new scenes in secret to bring it up-to-date with the current state of the MCU - even if it's just a revamped after credits scene.
The original After the Credits was supposed to be the reveal of Julia Louis-Dreyfus's character. I suspect we'll still see what they shot for that, but Shang-Chi is next, so it's possible they have something to tease for that.
Ahtman wrote: When Wandavision was airing there was a immense amount of speculation and it was almost always came down to Mephisto. You can go back in this very thread and find posts saying Mephisto did it and/or that Mephisto was being introduced. it wasn't just here it was all over the place to the point where it has become a bit of a joke.
I remember. It seemed to just come out of nowhere and I wondered if there was some inspiration for the theory, or whether somebody just went "Hey! Maybe it's Mephisto!".
Mephisto is sometimes linked to the Darkhold (the spell book in Wandavision) and the souls of Wanda kids were plants by Mephisto to stir up some shenanigans in the comics because comics are complicated and dumb. The rabbits name being Mr Scratch being a name for the devil didn't help.
Ultimately though, there was no real link to Mephisto (except maybe the Darkhold for down the line). Then, as other have said, it just became a running gag. Where did the super soldier serum come from? Mephisto! Whos behind the scared time line? Mephisto! Whats going on with the BW movie isn't she dead? Mephisto is pretending to be Natasha!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Obviously don’t tell us!
Don't tell us what they are, but feel free to confirm a, how many there are; and b, where they fall in the credits (start, mid-point, end)...
I am curious if they'll pull comics shenanigans here, specifically in the post-credits.
Way way back in the mists of various runs at the Infinity Stones, the Soul Stone ate various people but it turned out they were actually inside it in a pocket dimension (and naturally got freed eventually because Comics Characters Never Die). So there's completely a chance that Widow, Gamora and various Unknowns will get crapped out Somewhere after Thanos destroyed the Stones and something something Natasha wakes up in mysterious place.
Whether movie audiences will accept that level of comic book nonsense is another story, but... at this point they've got several ways to return characters if they feel like it.
Seems unlikely, given that we have the Black Widow movie setting up Yelena to take over that role, and Gamora has already been 'returned' through time travel shenanigans.
On a personal note, it would also be a huge disappointment for the MCU to follow the Arrowverse's path, where nobody's death matters anymore because you know that they're coming back sooner or later (and usually sooner).
insaniak wrote: On a personal note, it would also be a huge disappointment for the MCU to follow the Arrowverse's path, where nobody's death matters anymore because you know that they're coming back sooner or later (and usually sooner).
Have you watched any MCU movies? People not dying is pretty much their thing.
Characters not dying is fine. But each time a character comes back from the dead it cheapens the impact of any future character deaths. It eventually turns it from 'Ah! No! They killed [X]!' into 'Meh, wonder how they'll bring this one back?'
And for the record, yes, this has been one of my longstanding issues with the comics (of both camps) as well. Nobody is ever actually dead, unless it suits the plot... and even then it's liable to be reversed sooner or later. I'd much rather see characters replaced rather than resurrected.
insaniak wrote: On a personal note, it would also be a huge disappointment for the MCU to follow the Arrowverse's path, where nobody's death matters anymore because you know that they're coming back sooner or later (and usually sooner).
Have you watched any MCU movies? People not dying is pretty much their thing.
I know the directors of infanity war/endgame said they want the deaths perminant so that there is a sense of real concequence. but obviously if the right parties develop an awesome idea for what to do with a dead char, they'll find a way to ressurect them
BrianDavion wrote: I know the directors of infanity war/endgame said they want the deaths perminant so that there is a sense of real concequence. but obviously if the right parties develop an awesome idea for what to do with a dead char, they'll find a way to ressurect them
And even within those films most of the people who die come back. Even Thanos dies and comes back. Even one of the people taken by the Soul Stone comes back.
I think the biggest thing is that those who come back, are not essentially the same
Gamora is back, but this is not the Gamora that went through all that trials the one we know did.
Thanos came back, but the Thanos we saw in endgame was not the same, they where even different in manerisims and methods(Infinity War thanos got alot more mellow and meloncholy as he movie went on)
Same with Loki, This one didnt experiance his Mom dying or the destruction of his home.
Same with Vision. The whol Ship of theses was about that. Is he the same person if he has the memories but did not experiance them.
This ignores those who where blipped, but that was never not going to be undone.
Speaking of coming back, Richard E Grant’s Loki just gave them a way to bring back “prime” Loki, if they want to (it was an illusion all along!), although I don’t think they will. It’s much more likely that they’ll keep variant Loki running, assuming he doesn’t sacrifice himself for Sylvie in the final episode; at this point I can’t see that both of them are going to make it out alive.
Also, how close to 100% are the chances of the final scene being Möbius on a jet ski?
BrianDavion wrote: And jesus this latest episode of Loki.. FANTASTIC... gonna be a long week waiting for the finalle.
Agreed, I’m really enjoying this series (and all of the D+ stuff Marvel have done). They could have just churned out some boring, generic, episode of the week, action-adventure stuff and they really haven’t.
I need someone with more time and comic book knowledge to freeze frame every scene in the void, because I have a feeling there’s a ton of Easter eggs and references in the background.
The one I caught was the Thanos Copter. The one I’m not sure about was the little thing/creature jumping underground as the camera panned. I couldn’t make out what it was.
AduroT wrote: The one I caught was the Thanos Copter. The one I’m not sure about was the little thing/creature jumping underground as the camera panned. I couldn’t make out what it was.
you mean the one in the bottle? that's easy, think what he was jumping AT. it was pretty clearly a shrunk thor (*maybe Thorg) trying to get to Mjolner
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: Lets place bets on the man behind the curtain!
1) Kang
2) Another Loki
3) Mephisto
4) Other
why not 1 AND 2. Kang's backstory in the comic books is INSANELY complex. they'll have to simplify it, so I could see Kang just being a "Loki varient" (or even a varient of someone else we know) could work. hell, Maybe Kang is a Tony Stark Varient?
AduroT wrote: The one I caught was the Thanos Copter. The one I’m not sure about was the little thing/creature jumping underground as the camera panned. I couldn’t make out what it was.
you mean the one in the bottle? that's easy, think what he was jumping AT. it was pretty clearly a shrunk thor (*maybe Thorg) trying to get to Mjolner
Throg is my suspicion. It looked like it had the red cape.
Naw, I am all for another Loki. That or Kang. Though Kang would be like Agatha in that it's a reveal of a character that only people who know the comics knows. Which I think sucks a little of the fun out of it for everyone else? Unless there is bigger pay off later in other series/movies when these people come back.
Another great episode, cannot wait for the finale. As I am not very well versed in the comics I will probably miss some hints to Loki's backstory but that is why we have this thread - I love to read all the spoilers you guys place here
That's not as implausible as it sounds. She appears to be one of the only ones that knew all about the Time Keepers before the big reveal- and at the very least is a monitoring and data filtering entity put in place by the Big Bad. Head Henchwoman for sure, quite possibly an avatar of our Man Behind the Curtain.
Spoiler:
Alligator Loki, or Floridaman Loki, was absolutely delightful. I hope we see more of him! Every time he's on screen I keep thinking of Maine Justice.
AduroT wrote: So hey, did y’all see the wrecked Stark/Avengers Tower?
Spoiler:
It wasn’t Stark/Avengers Tower, rather it had a Qeng logo on it, which is yet another Kang reference.
I wondered about that. Saved me from looking it up.
The President Loki thing turned out to be far more farcical and (happily) short lived than I expected.
There were an awful lot of pithy one-liners about the power of belief and desire. Not sure it really sold me on them, even (or especially) when they worked.
Decent spectacles, and I guess everyone leveled up in being Loki.
--
In all fairness to Sylvie, that was far more a tablecloth than a blanket. Though between that and the costume comment, I wondered if that was more the actress than the character.
AduroT wrote: So hey, did y’all see the wrecked Stark/Avengers Tower?
Spoiler:
It wasn’t Stark/Avengers Tower, rather it had a Qeng logo on it, which is yet another Kang reference.
I wondered about that. Saved me from looking it up.
The President Loki thing turned out to be far more farcical and (happily) short lived than I expected.
There were an awful lot of pithy one-liners about the power of belief and desire. Not sure it really sold me on them, even (or especially) when they worked.
Decent spectacles, and I guess everyone leveled up in being Loki.
--
In all fairness to Sylvie, that was far more a tablecloth than a blanket. Though between that and the costume comment, I wondered if that was more the actress than the character.
the costume comment makes me think she's going to get a new costume at the end, it'd not suprise me given both WV and FATWS have had a "NEW COSTUME REVEAL" in the last episode
Maybe. The main thing with her costume is it was modded for her, as she's still breastfeeding. I just took it as a shout-out to the articles that circulated about it.
In Infinity War, when he uses the Time Stone to try to defeat Thanos he says he saw 14,000,605 possible futures, but only one in which they could defeat him.
What if Dr Strange used the Time Stone to manipulate all those possible futures into the one needed by setting up the TVA to get rid of (prune) all of the other timelines where they failed?
Tricky, since he was viewing and never left the spot he was sitting in. It's safer to say that he manipulated Tony.
It also has cause and effect issues- why would pruning the future and unrelated past be needed? Anything past endgame would be really unnecessary, and minor stuff in medieval cathedrals and ren fairies seems unlikely to affect Thanos, no matter how attached people are to chaos theory and butterflies.
Voss wrote: Tricky, since he was viewing and never left the spot he was sitting in. It's safer to say that he manipulated Tony.
It also has cause and effect issues- why would pruning the future and unrelated past be needed? Anything past endgame would be really unnecessary, and minor stuff in medieval cathedrals and ren fairies seems unlikely to affect Thanos, no matter how attached people are to chaos theory and butterflies.
Well now- Thanos was Dr. Strange's immediate focus. One of the stupider things about Time travel, is once you start going back and fixing things to make a better future- why would you ever stop?
Will those folks have a messy divorce? Go back and ruin their first date.
Does that guy you bumped into on Tuesday drop an ice cream on your new shoes? Go back to a ren faire, poison his ice cream so he goes through life thinking he's lactose intolerant.
Or, you know, more major stuff- will those two become an evil duo in the future? Eliminate their backstory, and perhaps one goes on to be a hero.
Especially with the TVA- someone has done enough meddling, often enough, to justify building an entire city dedicated to 'improving' history. We're in a Groundhog Day situation, where whoever's behind the Timekeepers is making a universe wide perfect day/week/aeon whatever.
Lance845 wrote: Naw, I am all for another Loki. That or Kang. Though Kang would be like Agatha in that it's a reveal of a character that only people who know the comics knows. Which I think sucks a little of the fun out of it for everyone else? Unless there is bigger pay off later in other series/movies when these people come back.
Alioth is another BIG nod towards Kang. I've seen a couple theories about where they go with that from here. I think my favorite is that we're not going to meet Jonathan Majors playing Kang but rather an older actor playing Immortus. This lets them tease what Kang can become but introduce us to a younger version of the character in Ant-Man. I've also seen it suggested that the TVA exists to keep Kang contained to the future and he's going to be unleashed now that Alioth isn't keeping him in check.
My favorite bit of the episode was the sequence of "Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal!" and the resulting nonsense. Kid Loki and Gator Loki playing Get Help! was fantastic.
On that note, Kid Loki in Young Avengers seems likely.
Voss wrote: Tricky, since he was viewing and never left the spot he was sitting in. It's safer to say that he manipulated Tony.
It also has cause and effect issues- why would pruning the future and unrelated past be needed? Anything past endgame would be really unnecessary, and minor stuff in medieval cathedrals and ren fairies seems unlikely to affect Thanos, no matter how attached people are to chaos theory and butterflies.
Well now- Thanos was Dr. Strange's immediate focus. One of the stupider things about Time travel, is once you start going back and fixing things to make a better future- why would you ever stop?
Right, but he pretty much lost the Stone immediately after his viewing session and can't do that anymore (as all of his time shenanigans seemed reliant on having the Time Stone). And the TVA seems solidly tech to the point that their HQ has an anti-everything else field (including magic and infinity stones).
So Strange is a pretty poor candidate for being the mastermind.
My other half is pretty convinced Sylvie will be Enchantress for the MCU. Just leave Amora out of it entirely.
Another Loki won't be a shock, but I am expecting and hoping for Kang, especially as he has been cast and they only uploaded the final episode for Loki to Disney plus a few weeks ago.
(The Director mentioned it on her twitter)
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: My other half is pretty convinced Sylvie will be Enchantress for the MCU. Just leave Amora out of it entirely.
I'm still really convinced she's just going to end up dead, as part of a generic 'growth' story for Loki.
It feels foreshadowed by Mobius' psychological tactics in the first four episodes (particularly when he brings in Frigga and Sif), even if it strikes me as hackneyed and a disturbing vehicle for negative character growth rather than something that would drive him to better things.
Another Loki only really works if its THIS Loki or THIS Sylvie or otherwise another Loki we've already met. If its just some random other Loki its effectively the same as any other new character at this point. The "but you're me" shock factor is kind of lost after you exchange it with a reptile.
LunarSol wrote: Another Loki only really works if its THIS Loki or THIS Sylvie or otherwise another Loki we've already met. If its just some random other Loki its effectively the same as any other new character at this point. The "but you're me" shock factor is kind of lost after you exchange it with a reptile.
The alligator was at least a little funny. The interchangeable herd of treacherous but talentless minions is what really killed that.
I'm still really convinced she's just going to end up dead, as part of a generic 'growth' story for Loki.
It feels foreshadowed by Mobius' psychological tactics in the first four episodes (particularly when he brings in Frigga and Sif), even if it strikes me as hackneyed and a disturbing vehicle for negative character growth rather than something that would drive him to better things.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters. In keeping with that, 'Loki' isn't really about Loki, it's Sylvie's origin story.
So if anything, I'm expecting Loki to sacrifice himself in the final episode to complete his new and improved redemption arc, and for Sylvie to step into the light ready for the next Avengers movie.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
WandaVision introduced Photon and I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Vision. Bucky & The Birdman was ultimately about Captain America, rather than either of those two characters. So I fully expect that Loki has a similar goal, with Sylvie (and Kid Loki, who is apparently joining the Young Avengers).
Loki can always come back one way or another. It's what he does. But like the rest of the original Avengers cast, he's been doing this for more than 10 years now. He's going to hang up his horns sooner or later. And given that Hiddleston has said that he's not appearing in the next Thor movie, it seems reasonably likely that this series is when he does it.
insaniak wrote: WandaVision introduced Photon and I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Vision.
Who's just Vision with a white coat of paint (they reconstructed the same hardware shell, and the plot allowed him to reinstall his software), and 'Photon' was introduced in Captain Marvel- the exact backstory for powers is just filler.
Bucky & The Birdman was ultimately about Captain America, rather than either of those two characters.
I... don't agree with that at all. Unless you mean Falcon AS Captain America, otherwise most of the messaging of that series might as well be flushed.
So I fully expect that Loki has a similar goal, with Sylvie (and Kid Loki, who is apparently joining the Young Avengers).
I think the goal is legitimately the costume changes and the world-building that has to take place outside the films because there just isn't enough time or complexity for these kind of stories inside them. Its a great format for interconnective tissue that films can't handle.
Loki can always come back one way or another. It's what he does. But like the rest of the original Avengers cast, he's been doing this for more than 10 years now. He's going to hang up his horns sooner or later. And given that Hiddleston has said that he's not appearing in the next Thor movie, it seems reasonably likely that this series is when he does it.
Definitely don't agree here. That's isn't how Hollywood works. When he hangs up the horns, its going to be plastered all over the scream-sheets and blogs. We'll have to actively try to not hear about it. Skipping out on an already packed ensemble film isn't much of a sign of anything, especially since they're already talking about a season 2 of this show (unlike Wanda or F&WS, though that may turn out to be a maybe)
This is all about setting up Alligator Loki as a mainstay of the MCU and getting his own movie. It is what I want. It is what you want. It is what everyone wants.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
Loki - Sylvie (Young Avengers Enchantress), Mobius, Throg (Yup that was Throg in the jar).
The key bit here is every single series so far has introduced a Young Avenger/Champion if not multiple. And currently announced series already have more of them in the cast, Kate Bishop being at the top of that list but also including Iron Heart, or is a good place to introduce them, Hulkling in Secret Invasion.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
Loki - Sylvie (Young Avengers Enchantress), Mobius, Throg (Yup that was Throg in the jar).
The key bit here is every single series so far has introduced a Young Avenger/Champion if not multiple. And currently announced series already have more of them in the cast, Kate Bishop being at the top of that list but also including Iron Heart, or is a good place to introduce them, Hulkling in Secret Invasion.
yeah I think given what we've seen so far it's almost garented that we're going to get a "young avengers" (or champions if they wanna disconnect from that name) they've also with some of the stuff potentially been laying groundwork for the thunderbolts.
I doubt Champions, unless they almost completely redo the team lineup. I think we’re getting a Ms Marvel intro soon? Otherwise none of the other characters exist in the MCU yet. I would consider a more generic Young Avengers far more likely.
AduroT wrote: I doubt Champions, unless they almost completely redo the team lineup. I think we’re getting a Ms Marvel intro soon? Otherwise none of the other characters exist in the MCU yet. I would consider a more generic Young Avengers far more likely.
well reason why I suggested we could see the name Champions used (iron heart is coming and Peter Parker is a teenager in this universe so he could fill the Miles role) is because it's less age dependant then "young avengers" I mean even if you assume 20-30 somethings will be playing the "teenage" roles, leaving out the "young" aspect allows the team to last a bit longer. but yeah other then that it seems more a classic young avegers I agree.
I could see them doing a Young Avengers movie, with the new team forming up, but ultimately dropping the Young and just being a new Avengers team. Actually, we’re going to have most of the lineup for All New All Different Avengers, going with that younger Parker filling Miles’ role thing. Ironheart would have to take Tony’s spot. Have they announced any plans for a Nova yet?
I doubt they will have Peter fill the role, they will likely just introduce Miles to the Universe in some way. I would like to see some of the better versions of Spiderman. Peter is boring.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
Captain Fascism?
Too subtle? Literally publicly beating a refugee to death with a symbol of liberty in the wrong hands seemed pretty straightforward. Being recruited by Hydra at the end was just a garnish.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
Captain Fascism?
Too subtle? Literally publicly beating a refugee to death with a symbol of liberty in the wrong hands seemed pretty straightforward. Being recruited by Hydra at the end was just a garnish.
No, too incorrect word usage. Unless, of course, fascism got a drastic definition change while I wasn't looking.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
Captain Fascism?
Too subtle? Literally publicly beating a refugee to death with a symbol of liberty in the wrong hands seemed pretty straightforward. Being recruited by Hydra at the end was just a garnish.
No, too incorrect word usage. Unless, of course, fascism got a drastic definition change while I wasn't looking.
He's literally the embodiment of the unchecked power and authority of the state applying jackboots directly to the face of the oppressed. That may not be the 'technical' definition of fascism, but I think everybody else in the world got it.
Walker had nothing to do with 'fascism'. I don't know how someone could interpret it as such.
Voss wrote: I doubt they'll branch into multiple Spider-folk until they come up with a permanent solution to the rights issues.
This is correct. Nothing Marvel Studios will do will hinge on anything they don't own.
I've seen people say that the next leader of the Avengers will obviously be Spider-Man. I've seen people say that clearly Avengers Tower was sold to OsCorp! These people forget that Marvel does not own these things, and therefore would be foolish to make long term plans based on something they could lose access to tomorrow.
I think you have that backwards. The various TV shows seem to be ultimately serving as a launching pad for the next round of characters. While they've used existing characters for that, and given those characters significant growth along the way, the ultimate goal is to introduce these new characters.
Most of the new characters so far have died, suffered a fate worse than death, or never really existed, with the exception of Captain Fascism. The shows so far have been about putting new outfits on existing characters.
I don't think Disney will court the backlash from dead Hiddleston. They only got away with it the first couple times because they made it clear he wasn't dead for real reals.
Captain Fascism?
Too subtle? Literally publicly beating a refugee to death with a symbol of liberty in the wrong hands seemed pretty straightforward. Being recruited by Hydra at the end was just a garnish.
No, too incorrect word usage. Unless, of course, fascism got a drastic definition change while I wasn't looking.
And Elaine is a Hydra agent?
... we dunno, the character she's playing is Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, she's clearly someone with authority in the US government in the MCU (I'm assuming US government due to the recruitment of US Agent)
In the comic books she was a member of shield and a lover of Nick Fury's however it turned out she was secrelty a mole for a group called Levithan (a russian counterpart ot SHIELD it sounds like) she alsosecretly was Madam Hydra for a time.
So there's a few ways the MCU could go with her character
Voss wrote: He's literally the embodiment of the unchecked power and authority
Which is why he wasn't stripped of his title and position... or ignored by others. Yup total power and authority.
Because he turned a surrendering man into soup in front of a dozen witnesses with cameras. There are practical limits, even to extreme ideologies. No one other than Sam and Bucky had any issue with his behavior up until that very public meltdown.
Had he killed the guy in the warehouse during the firefight, next to his fallen partner, he would've gotten another medal for it. It was all about the optics.
He had a lot of issues but fascism wasn't one of them.
I guess if you ignore the heavy handed symbolism, the current events they were very, very obviously drawing from, and the links to what Hydra was trying to accomplish with Cap via SHIELD in the Winter Soldier, sure, nothing there.
Captain America is being held up as inspiring people, elevating them to reach their dreams.
The danger of Cap is the fixation on the Cult of Personality can get really twisted and used to other ends- which it immediately does.
'US Agent' was shown to be about crushing people down if they stepped out of line. Much like the whole system being portrayed in the shoe- the banks, the agency in character of the 'refugees,' etc. All of it was about the boot.
Its not that complex.
Voss wrote: 'US Agent' was shown to be about crushing people down if they stepped out of line.
Was he? He was mostly just where he was told to be, and there's a big gap between "Aw shucks! Big shoes to fill!" and "CAP SMASH!" that we didn't see because the show failed to develop him properly. Trying to make that out as him being an allegory for fascism strikes me as reductive.
To be fair U.S. Agent didn't really understand what it meant to be Cap. And being Cap he expected a general level or respect and reverence that doesn't come with the title and the shield.
When that guy spit in his face and he started yelling "Don't you know who I am!?" it showed how much he expected and how little he understood.
He wasn't fascist. He was ignorant. He was being a soldier who expected Cap to just be another soldier+1 when Cap regularly was a bad soldier for the sake of doing the right thing. Walker wasn't a good enough person to make those kinds of calls. To be fair basically nobody is. Roger's is the moral compass of the Marvel Universe.
Voss wrote: 'US Agent' was shown to be about crushing people down if they stepped out of line.
Was he? He was mostly just where he was told to be, and there's a big gap between "Aw shucks! Big shoes to fill!" and "CAP SMASH!" that we didn't see because the show failed to develop him properly. Trying to make that out as him being an allegory for fascism strikes me as reductive.
The show had all sorts of issues, but what they showed off with him seems perfectly in line with this to me. Even 'just where he was told to be' is completely in line with that.
But Walker was on his trajectory from the moment they showed him off in the locker room, stewing in his insecurities and doing the big interview on the football field.
That he was ultimately disposable isn't really an issue. Every episode had him going for the violent or oppressive response, every time. Even his attempts to get Sam on side were overblown and coercive. If I remember correctly, we were both wondering if he'd end up shooting a kid as early as episode 1 or 2.
He fought Sam and Bucky because he still believed he had the authority to brutalize that guy, and they weren't allowed to take his symbol away.
There are so many things pointing to 'Captain Fascism' as the expected take away that it doesn't feel reductive at all. It felt like Disney dropping a moral anvil wrapped in current events every episode and screaming 'Do you get it yet?' over and over again.
Voss wrote: If I remember correctly, we were both wondering if he'd end up shooting a kid as early as episode 1 or 2.
That was actually me ridiculing the end of Wandavision, where Agent Whatshisname, who up until this point has been a dick, but not evil, suddenly and inexplicably opens fire on a pair of children so that the show can make him an irredeemable bad guy.
As to the rest of what you said, Lance put it into words better than I did.
Voss wrote: If I remember correctly, we were both wondering if he'd end up shooting a kid as early as episode 1 or 2.
That was actually me ridiculing the end of Wandavision, where Agent Whatshisname, who up until this point has been a dick, but not evil, suddenly and inexplicably opens fire on a pair of children so that the show can make him an irredeemable bad guy.
As to the rest of what you said, Lance put it into words better than I did.
Nah he'd been acting kinda brutal before. I knew well before that moment he was clearly willing to do anything and EVERYTHING to do what he "needed to do"
BrianDavion wrote: Nah he'd been acting kinda brutal before. I knew well before that moment he was clearly willing to do anything and EVERYTHING to do what he "needed to do"
Not to get into it again, but from his perspective an entire town had been taken hostage by an enhanced person - she knew that she was doing it and had chosen not to stop herself from doing it - so he was doing everything he could to stop her. Then she mind controlled most of his officers, and he just went further in trying to bring what is essentially an enhanced domestic terrorist action (I don't think it's outlandish to level such a title against what amounts to a mass kidnapping), and then... he fires his gun at some kids because the show needs to have a lower level bad guy that the muggles (REAd: Darcy et al) can fight whilst Vision fights Mirrored Marvel Villain #223-H and Wanda has a CGI skybattle.
I can't believe Thanos was Loki's father all along!
Spoiler:
Well... that was not what I was expecting.
In a weird way, Sylvie is Loki, but also not Loki. And thus Immortus is not Kang, but also is Kang.
And we have Kang! He's here, in the MCU, and he's terrifying. Thanos wouldn't've stood a chance against this guy.
Overall I am beyond impressed that they decided to leave it at a cliffhanger, and then use the mid-credits scene to confirm something I didn't think we'd ever see - Season 2! I really thought, given the nature of the MCU and how it keeps moving forward, that these shows would be a one-and-done situation. But if there's more Loki, then sign me the hell up as this is the best thing Marvel has done TV-wise.
Only condition is that they have to bring Natalie Holt back. Her music was integral to this show, and that's not something you can say about music in the MCU.
Anyway, yeah, this was a fascinating finale. They stuck this landing, didn't give us yet another Loki, or make everyone Loki, or whatever. They went full man behind the curtain, gave us Kang by way of Immortus, and had Sylvie fail because of her inability to trust. They also left Loki in a reality where the enemy he just found out about rules, and his friends don't remember him.
So do we get Season 2 before Ant-Man 3? And I swear, if Kang is defeated by some plucky one-liners and CGI fight scene in Ant-Man, it will be a waste.
We reached Legends of Tomorrow season 1 finale (Including Big Bad lurking at the End of Time) about halfway through the final episode, then we leapfrogged all the way to Crisis on Infinite Earths (specifically Episode 4).
I mean, sure, it was well done and all that, and I can't deny Doctor Who's history too, and it set up what is going forward.
I just felt I'd seen it all before, in a pretty darn similar context.
Then again, maybe it's all just a case of 'there are only 7 plots.'
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't believe Thanos was Loki's father all along!
Spoiler:
Well... that was not what I was expecting.
In a weird way, Sylvie is Loki, but also not Loki. And thus Immortus is not Kang, but also is Kang.
And we have Kang! He's here, in the MCU, and he's terrifying. Thanos wouldn't've stood a chance against this guy.
Overall I am beyond impressed that they decided to leave it at a cliffhanger, and then use the mid-credits scene to confirm something I didn't think we'd ever see - Season 2! I really thought, given the nature of the MCU and how it keeps moving forward, that these shows would be a one-and-done situation. But if there's more Loki, then sign me the hell up as this is the best thing Marvel has done TV-wise.
Only condition is that they have to bring Natalie Holt back. Her music was integral to this show, and that's not something you can say about music in the MCU.
Anyway, yeah, this was a fascinating finale. They stuck this landing, didn't give us yet another Loki, or make everyone Loki, or whatever. They went full man behind the curtain, gave us Kang by way of Immortus, and had Sylvie fail because of her inability to trust. They also left Loki in a reality where the enemy he just found out about rules, and his friends don't remember him.
So do we get Season 2 before Ant-Man 3? And I swear, if Kang is defeated by some plucky one-liners and CGI fight scene in Ant-Man, it will be a waste.
Spoiler:
the speculation is that Kang is being set up as the next Thanos. so I doubt we'll see him defeated for good in Antman 3. In fact My guess is we see Antman 3 be what brings him to the attention of "The Avengers" and we eventually see Loki return to the "main timeline" by working with the avengers to stop him for good. this'll proably be the next avengers movie
That wasn't what i was expecting at all, but very much enjoyed it.
I'm just hoping it doesn't do a "Primeval" (british ITV show about dinosaurs) and set up a really interesting cliffhanger only to completely drop the ball with it)
The ending did throw me a wee bit, as I’d forgotten we were getting season 2.
Spoiler:
However, I’m glad Season 2 is a direct continuation, rather than Loki In Trouble Elsewhere.
This is an interesting lead in to the New Big Bad, the way Thanos was something of a slow burning and rarely seen threat.
We’re seeing at least a version of Kang. Maybe he’s the best version, maybe he’s the worst. They left that bit somewhat unclear, as we don’t know which side he was on during the Multiverse War.
AntMan 3 - Quantamania? Well, we get Multiverse of Madness first, I think? Plenty more time for more Kang(s)
What if every film in phase 4 is about defeating Kang, except it’s a different Kang every time?
I am already bored by the premise you just put forth.
-----
That was... well. It wasn't an ending. It was a vehicle for moving a handful of characters to various loosely connected sequels, including itself.
It kinda felt like the end of a very railroaded D&D campaign (or Planescape Torment, for those that know how that game ends), where things only progressed to a point because the players knew what the DM had planned, but then time-travel pretzel logic happened, and suddenly everyone's actions are dictated by their two-letter alignment designations (though Loki's seems to be set to 'random').
I think the biggest surprise for me is that the TVA still exists. I wonder if it kept its plot-hole inducing 'nullify-everything' powers.
I do somewhat like it. I don't particularly like the instant and retroactive consequences.
And they never really did square the circle with Endgame's timeline jumping when there wasn't a branching timeline (despite that being the origin of this Loki), and it seems fairly important with both sets of consequences going forward.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The ending did throw me a wee bit, as I’d forgotten we were getting season 2.
Spoiler:
However, I’m glad Season 2 is a direct continuation, rather than Loki In Trouble Elsewhere.
This is an interesting lead in to the New Big Bad, the way Thanos was something of a slow burning and rarely seen threat.
We’re seeing at least a version of Kang. Maybe he’s the best version, maybe he’s the worst. They left that bit somewhat unclear, as we don’t know which side he was on during the Multiverse War.
Well,
Spoiler:
the version of the story he told claims he was the first, and peaceful. But after it all kicked off he spiraled way down the moral event horizon and weaponized Alioth. And then basically choked out the universe and (by implication at least) the very concept of free will.
Which is a pretty wild claim, to be honest.
The big problem I had with the whole thing is some sense that it actually matters. It matters for Sylvie because it affected her personally and destroyed her life. Of course she cares.
But once you've got infinity realities of infinite versions of infinite things, I'm entirely checked out. You're not operating on a scale I'm capable of caring about. You kick a puppy in front of me, I'm mad. If there are an infinite number of infinite puppy kickers existing in some dark corner of the universe, you might as well be lying about kicking puppies at all. It makes you kind a freak with a weird fantasy, but not something I actually care about.
They covered that. By killing Kang, Sylvie caused Kang, as there was now no-one to prune the multiverse. As that doesn’t kick off until 3100, it’s going to happen again.
Who knows how many times this dance has been danced? And will we be dealing with the same Kang as Sylvie killed
They covered that. By killing Kang, Sylvie caused Kang, as there was now no-one to prune the multiverse. As that doesn’t kick off until 3100, it’s going to happen again.
Who knows how many times this dance has been danced? And will we be dealing with the same Kang as Sylvie killed
They kind of covered it... But honestly it doesn't follow. Even by timetravel 'logic.'
If that's all it was, he could've just visited every timeline and murdered himself as a baby. Nothing the TVA actually does has anything to do with Him. If they did, they'd focus so much on the 31st century, and not care about much of anything else. The solution of narrowing everything down to a single timeline (somehow) is impossibly complex. When Doctor Who waves things off as 'timey-Whimey' it's a better solution than trying to figure out how this actually would work. It's equally nonsense, but at least it isn't wasting everyone's time with crap about free will and inevitability.
The endless 'dance' is part of problem. There is nothing to suggest that just letting it happen is actually worse than the multitude of crimes that actually get committed to stop it from happening (and everything else the TVA does).
It just makes the stakes so infinitesimally small. Does the superhero save the plane and lose his relationship is far more interesting and relevant than the cosmic infinite mess of incarnations and timelines. Because all of the above isn't an answer, it's an empty spectacle.
This manages to be interesting because it's personal to Loki and Sylvie. But infinite Bob and his future infinite shenanigans in endless incarnations are the polar opposite of that. Hero B punches variant #37733 in the face and it doesn't matter. Huzzah.
Turnip Jedi wrote: does/did Marvel comics have a Crisis like event to collapse it to a reasonable number of timelines ?
Not really I don’t think. Marvel just doesn’t mess with multiversal travel all that much like DC does. Outside of the Spiders doing their Spider-verse stuff I can’t think of an example offhand even, which isn’t to say there aren’t any, they’re just not to common.
It's amazing how much this ending contrasts with FatWS, and Wandavision. We still have that personal growth of our main character... but outside of that, it has absolutely no effect on the universe. Wandavision revives Vision, and unleashes a far more powered up Wanda upon the world. FatWS makes a new Captain, and establishes US Agent as the almost-hero joining the new shadowy organization, and Sharon as a Powerbroker ready to issue Shield tech to anyone who can afford it. For Loki- we change Kangs in charge? And now one loan, utterly untrustworthy individual is possibly on the loose in the timestream with the truth. There's remarkably little consequence for the whole series for the universe as a whole. The only thing worse would have been Loki waking up and it all being a dream.
Strangely enough I wasn't mad at it- it's an intensely frustrating ending, which is right on track for their series focus, which is what it means to be a Loki. To lose, no matter how much you try to change, no matter how good or pure your motives. You just lose, and never accomplish your goals. It'll be really interesting to see how Loki handles that in the next series, and in any MCU films he appears in.
AduroT wrote: Outside of the Spiders doing their Spider-verse stuff I can’t think of an example offhand even, which isn’t to say there aren’t any, they’re just not to common.
The thing is DC uses all their "Crisis" events to wipe the slate clean and reboot. Marvel doesn't reboot. They update. They fill in gaps. Sure, there are retcons in there in the process. But all the things that happened before still happened.
I think the nearest marvel equivalent to 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' is their relatively recent (and unhelpfully titled) 'Secret Wars' series.
Which I never read, because it seemed, somehow, like even a bigger more complex mess than CoIE, but it's ultimate goal was pretty similar to CoIE, kill off annoying strands of the storyline and bring things back together.
I think the only impactful outcome of it of note was that Miles Morales, and possibly Gwen Stacy too (though I'm not sure on that), are now situated on the main marvel setting.
Turnip Jedi wrote: does/did Marvel comics have a Crisis like event to collapse it to a reasonable number of timelines ?
Not really I don’t think. Marvel just doesn’t mess with multiversal travel all that much like DC does. Outside of the Spiders doing their Spider-verse stuff I can’t think of an example offhand even, which isn’t to say there aren’t any, they’re just not to common.
The latest Secret Wars? (Ah, scooped that one, but the premise wasn't to kill off anything, but rather the same as the Spider-verse: to allow their creatives to have fun designing lots of What Ifs for a while) The have a boatload of alternate realities there. There's also the Ultimate universe, of course. House of M. Exiles' complete premise is universe walking. Heroes Reborn. That's only full, complete multiversal stories that I can remember right now... there's loads and loads of multiverse plots in many regular series, too.
The recent Heroes Reborn wasn’t technically a multiverse thing, it was the current main reality being temporarily rewritten.
A “Crisis” type event I just remembered would be the Battle World I think it was called? Doctor Doom managed to (again temporarily) collapse the multiverse down into a single reality where he was god and multiple versions of different characters simultaneously existed on it.
The last Infinity War also dabbled in some multiversal stuff, but with less crossing over and more just peaking into a couple alternates.
So yeah, Marvel definitely has its multiverse, it’s just not an established thing like DC tends to do and more just whatever they happen to want at the moment.
AduroT wrote: The recent Heroes Reborn wasn’t technically a multiverse thing, it was the current main reality being temporarily rewritten.
"Umm actually,"... yeah I am sorry about this. Heroes Reborn was Franklin Richards getting rid of Onslaught by dumping him and some heroes caught in the blast into pocket realities that he had created with his own powers. The normal Marvel Universe kept on keeping on while the heroes in question just disappeared. Ironman, Thor, and Cap being the big ones that got "Reborn".
A “Crisis” type event I just remembered would be the Battle World I think it was called? Doctor Doom managed to (again temporarily) collapse the multiverse down into a single reality where he was god and multiple versions of different characters simultaneously existed on it.
That was the aforementioned Secret Wars with God Emperor Doom. But the end result of it was the Multiverse was restored and all the normal character still had their normal histories in tact.
The last Infinity War also dabbled in some multiversal stuff, but with less crossing over and more just peaking into a couple alternates.
So yeah, Marvel definitely has its multiverse, it’s just not an established thing like DC tends to do and more just whatever they happen to want at the moment.
It IS well established. It's just infinite. Every universe has a number designation. The MCU for instance is 199999. The main comics one is 616.
Building towards Secret Wars has felt like the road being paved since Endgame. I just wouldn't expect it anytime soon. 8 years or so? In good news, it would give them a chance to introduce Doom in a way that makes the character work via his Rabum Alal persona. I think he'll be our next Thanos, with Kang being more of a means to an end. It's a pretty perfect event to mimic Infinity War/Endgame's style too, as much of the event itself was the build up to the "snap" moment when the multiverse collides on itself followed by the actual story of trying to restore the planet by overthrowing God Emperor Doom.
In any case, there will be movies where the multiverse drives the story (No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, Quantumania) and likely just as many that don't (Shang Chi, Eternals, Thor 4, Wakanda Forever, etc) and you won't need to know any of it to follow any of the rest of it. Characters matter, the plots... largely doing a good job of making you feel like they matter retroactively.
It's amazing how much this ending contrasts with FatWS, and Wandavision. We still have that personal growth of our main character... but outside of that, it has absolutely no effect on the universe. Wandavision revives Vision, and unleashes a far more powered up Wanda upon the world. FatWS makes a new Captain, and establishes US Agent as the almost-hero joining the new shadowy organization, and Sharon as a Powerbroker ready to issue Shield tech to anyone who can afford it. For Loki- we change Kangs in charge? And now one loan, utterly untrustworthy individual is possibly on the loose in the timestream with the truth. There's remarkably little consequence for the whole series for the universe as a whole. The only thing worse would have been Loki waking up and it all being a dream.
Strangely enough I wasn't mad at it- it's an intensely frustrating ending, which is right on track for their series focus, which is what it means to be a Loki. To lose, no matter how much you try to change, no matter how good or pure your motives. You just lose, and never accomplish your goals. It'll be really interesting to see how Loki handles that in the next series, and in any MCU films he appears in.
Oh, and how about Miss Minutes? Man, she can act!
It’s also the first to have a follow up, and to have clear ties to what is to come. I suspect it’s reputation will depend upon what follows, and how many “whoa!” type moments tie back to Loki S1 and S2.
AduroT wrote: The recent Heroes Reborn wasn’t technically a multiverse thing, it was the current main reality being temporarily rewritten.
"Umm actually,"... yeah I am sorry about this. Heroes Reborn was Franklin Richards getting rid of Onslaught by dumping him and some heroes caught in the blast into pocket realities that he had created with his own powers. The normal Marvel Universe kept on keeping on while the heroes in question just disappeared. Ironman, Thor, and Cap being the big ones that got "Reborn".
A “Crisis” type event I just remembered would be the Battle World I think it was called? Doctor Doom managed to (again temporarily) collapse the multiverse down into a single reality where he was god and multiple versions of different characters simultaneously existed on it.
That was the aforementioned Secret Wars with God Emperor Doom. But the end result of it was the Multiverse was restored and all the normal character still had their normal histories in tact.
The last Infinity War also dabbled in some multiversal stuff, but with less crossing over and more just peaking into a couple alternates.
So yeah, Marvel definitely has its multiverse, it’s just not an established thing like DC tends to do and more just whatever they happen to want at the moment.
What about the 'New Universe?' (Whatever happened to that?)
It IS well established. It's just infinite. Every universe has a number designation. The MCU for instance is 199999. The main comics one is 616.
The NEW universe is just 616. They rediscovered the ultimate universe and ghost spider (gwen stacy) is home in her own universe.
But more important then that, even if it didnt, the characters are the same characters. THEY did not get rebooted even if the universe they inhabit has gone through some changes.
DC doesnt do that. DC wipes the whole slate clean. Characters history and all.
Gwen’s been spending more of her time in the main universe lately, being the only Spider currently capable of universe travel, so she can attend school there where people don’t recognize her or know who she is.
I really enjoyed it, and very happy for the season 2 confirmation... just a painful wait for the next one as unless Marvel announces something soon Season 2 must be a ways out.
As long as the threads aren't left dangling for that long, and we get some sort of continuation or adjacent story in Spider-Man 3/Dr. Strange 2/Ant-Man 3 (I mean Kang is in that film, so there has to be something!).
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
I'm not sure losing an... active debate... makes someone responsible for the events that follow. I'm not sure I'd even say the winner was, at least in this case. With infinite infinities, this feels inevitable, especially since He Who Didn't Feel Like Being Named Today wanted out of the game and was looking for anyone to cross the threshold, no matter how it turned out in the end.
Being in (or out) of her office shouldn't mean anything. We already know there are multiples of her running around.
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
I'm not sure losing an... active debate... makes someone responsible for the events that follow. I'm not sure I'd even say the winner was, at least in this case. With infinite infinities, this feels inevitable, especially since He Who Didn't Feel Like Being Named Today wanted out of the game and was looking for anyone to cross the threshold, no matter how it turned out in the end.
Spoiler:
Who said... anything about... 'winning' or... responsibility for... debates? Immortus literally states the consequences for the two possibilities and Loki (Sylvie Loki not Hiddleston Loki) completes the option that leads to Kang(s) a poppin throughout the timeline. It isn't vague or esoteric.
Voss wrote: Being in (or out) of her office shouldn't mean anything. We already know there are multiples of her running around.
Sure, because Marvel is known for the rigid adherence to scientific realism.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't believe Thanos was Loki's father all along!
Spoiler:
Well... that was not what I was expecting.
In a weird way, Sylvie is Loki, but also not Loki. And thus Immortus is not Kang, but also is Kang.
And we have Kang! He's here, in the MCU, and he's terrifying. Thanos wouldn't've stood a chance against this guy.
Overall I am beyond impressed that they decided to leave it at a cliffhanger, and then use the mid-credits scene to confirm something I didn't think we'd ever see - Season 2! I really thought, given the nature of the MCU and how it keeps moving forward, that these shows would be a one-and-done situation. But if there's more Loki, then sign me the hell up as this is the best thing Marvel has done TV-wise.
Only condition is that they have to bring Natalie Holt back. Her music was integral to this show, and that's not something you can say about music in the MCU.
Anyway, yeah, this was a fascinating finale. They stuck this landing, didn't give us yet another Loki, or make everyone Loki, or whatever. They went full man behind the curtain, gave us Kang by way of Immortus, and had Sylvie fail because of her inability to trust. They also left Loki in a reality where the enemy he just found out about rules, and his friends don't remember him.
So do we get Season 2 before Ant-Man 3? And I swear, if Kang is defeated by some plucky one-liners and CGI fight scene in Ant-Man, it will be a waste.
Spoiler:
the speculation is that Kang is being set up as the next Thanos. so I doubt we'll see him defeated for good in Antman 3. In fact My guess is we see Antman 3 be what brings him to the attention of "The Avengers" and we eventually see Loki return to the "main timeline" by working with the avengers to stop him for good. this'll proably be the next avengers movie
Spoiler:
That’s the thing about multi-verse Kang. Even if you defeat him, there are virtually an infinite supply of alternate Kangs.
So Loki is responsible for unleashing Kang and Renslayer is AFK. I'm going to guess that Renslayer is unaffected by the reality shift considering how she vamoosed her office.
I'm not sure losing an... active debate... makes someone responsible for the events that follow. I'm not sure I'd even say the winner was, at least in this case. With infinite infinities, this feels inevitable, especially since He Who Didn't Feel Like Being Named Today wanted out of the game and was looking for anyone to cross the threshold, no matter how it turned out in the end.
Spoiler:
Who said... anything about... 'winning' or... responsibility for... debates? Immortus literally states the consequences for the two possibilities and Loki (Sylvie Loki not Hiddleston Loki) completes the option that leads to Kang(s) a poppin throughout the timeline. It isn't vague or esoteric.
You did. You specifically said "Loki is responsible" If you meant Sylvie, you should've just said that. Variants aside, they're different people with definitely distinct experiences, traumas and issues. Their lives barely overlap at all. [As opposed to this Loki and murdered-by-Thanos Loki, who have like a 95% overlap)
Also... we're given very little reason to trust Bob's version of 'the consequences.' He also claimed they only got there by his design, but he...didn't expect both of them, and also knew everything up til the point he didn't (despite... not expecting them both?). That's not a reliable narrator. That's a BS artist rejecting any sense of responsibility, while claiming he's the headmaster of the entire circus. And the First of all the things, which is equally dubious.
Voss wrote: Being in (or out) of her office shouldn't mean anything. We already know there are multiples of her running around.
Sure, because Marvel is known for the rigid adherence to scientific realism.
Its... not a matter of scientific realism? These people already have variants. Most (if not all) _are_ variants.
'Immunity' isn't really part of the narrative presented, and even if it was, that ship sailed some manner of infinite time ago.
She should have no idea wtf is going on. But a simple season 1->season 2 timeskip will allow some fuzziness there.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, what made that specific moment so special that time started branching? Was it Kangs birth?
It was the fact that not all Kangs are the same.
Basically there are Kangs out there - let's call them the conquering type - that didn't want to share and exchange knowledge with other versions of themselves across the multi-verse. So they waged war on one another, creating the multi-universal war the TVA propaganda talks about. The Kang we meet, the last one at the end of time, eventually used the Smoke Monster from Lost to destroy all the other Kangs, reducing reality to a single timeline. He then created the TVA to ensure that no further timelines could ever exist, as any one of them could bring about a bloodthirsty warlike Kang.
Then Sylvie killed him, and time began branching, and multi-universal Kangs came back into being.
Mea culpa I forgot I said 'responsible' and thought I just said that Loki unleashed Kang. As for "it wasn't Loki it was Sylvie" Sylvie is Loki and and the Loki is Sylvie. There was an alligator that was also Loki.
Edited as I may be in a bit of a mood and being a bit more of a gruff then I mean to be. grumble grumble grumble
I don’t think killing Kang actually caused the timeline fracture. It wasn’t Kang out there personally culling timelines after all. At that point the TVA was already in chaos and had stopped doing their thing thanks to Mobius and the other agent lady, and that would have allowed the naturally occurring timelines splits to mature.
One thing I've been thinking about is, He Who Remains (HWR) specifically said he isolated his timestream.
So, I think he really did defeat ALL of the multiverse Kangs. I mean, he probably defeated SOME of them, in the process of it all.
But I think it's along the lines of...
There's this multimultiverse. HWR grabs his native native timeline, isolates it (somehow). But, it immediately starts branching again. And that's what the TVA starts pruning.
To stick with the gardening metaphor, he built a greenhouse around his garden, but he still needs gardeners to keep it in control. And some weedkiller (Alioth) too.
So, with HWR dead, Loki and Sylvie declining to buy the house and manage the gardeners, things are all going a bit nuts.
(For the moment, I'm going to assume that Sylvie's 'crime' was being born, but Disney didn't want to go down that road for all the debates it would start, so left it unsaid)
AduroT wrote: I don’t think killing Kang actually caused the timeline fracture. It wasn’t Kang out there personally culling timelines after all. At that point the TVA was already in chaos and had stopped doing their thing thanks to Mobius and the other agent lady, and that would have allowed the naturally occurring timelines splits to mature.
Specifically their choice was to kill Kang or go back and run the TVA. The important thing here is they were supposed to go back, explain to the agents that they were variants and, having themselves rebelled to the point of getting to the bottom of things, learned how important the TVA's work was and use that to convince them to go back to work. The leaders of the rebellion needed to go back and put things back in order. Failing that, things grow exponentially out of control. What's curious is the TVA Loki returns to. Clearly it seems to be a variant TVA run by a more authoritarian version of Kang, but I'm curious if more importantly its at an earlier point in the TVA's history.
