solkan wrote: I think it's hilarious that they're doing a two week pre-order window and the box is probably going to spend thirteen days, twenty three hours, and fifty five minutes of that sold out online.
Edit: Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for the "Kill Team Essentials" accessory box and cards to sell out?
They said they've produced as many of the Kill Team set as they have Dominion, and that's still available online.
I don't remember the exact wording but I don’t think they said they made as many as Dominion. They said they made plenty so they were expecting it to hang around for a while, similar to how Dominion has hung around for a while.If they aren’t expecting it to be as popular as Dominion maybe they made less, if they were expecting it to be more popular, maybe they made more.
solkan wrote: I think it's hilarious that they're doing a two week pre-order window and the box is probably going to spend thirteen days, twenty three hours, and fifty five minutes of that sold out online.
Edit: Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for the "Kill Team Essentials" accessory box and cards to sell out?
They said they've produced as many of the Kill Team set as they have Dominion, and that's still available online.
I don't remember the exact wording but I don’t think they said they made as many as Dominion. They said they made plenty so they were expecting it to hang around for a while, similar to how Dominion has hung around for a while.If they aren’t expecting it to be as popular as Dominion maybe they made less, if they were expecting it to be more popular, maybe they made more.
At the very least, the "kill team essentials" and the "tac ops cards" should remain in production, since they're kind of important to the playing of the game.
I say this, but 90% of the play supplies you need for games like Warcry, Necromunda, and the previous Kill Team disappeared after the first few months and were never seen again, so, who knows.
solkan wrote: I think it's hilarious that they're doing a two week pre-order window and the box is probably going to spend thirteen days, twenty three hours, and fifty five minutes of that sold out online.
Edit: Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for the "Kill Team Essentials" accessory box and cards to sell out?
They said they've produced as many of the Kill Team set as they have Dominion, and that's still available online.
I don't remember the exact wording but I don’t think they said they made as many as Dominion. They said they made plenty so they were expecting it to hang around for a while, similar to how Dominion has hung around for a while.If they aren’t expecting it to be as popular as Dominion maybe they made less, if they were expecting it to be more popular, maybe they made more.
This. Not to mention that Dominion still being available means little anyway as we're comparing AOS to 40k, with the latter having far higher demand
They did say that the Kommandos and Krieg would be sold separately
And they also teased (and rumors have also suggested) that other factions would get 'specialist boxes' aimed at Kill Team but that could also be used for 40k. The rumors pointed to Craftworld and Tau getting those sorts of boxes as well. Wouldn't be surprised to see them in a dual box set much like this one.
I could see it, Tau vs Eldar fighting in some Imperium streets or something.
drbored wrote: They did say that the Kommandos and Krieg would be sold separately
And they also teased (and rumors have also suggested) that other factions would get 'specialist boxes' aimed at Kill Team but that could also be used for 40k. The rumors pointed to Craftworld and Tau getting those sorts of boxes as well. Wouldn't be surprised to see them in a dual box set much like this one.
I could see it, Tau vs Eldar fighting in some Imperium streets or something.
Of course they said that they would be sold separately. Nobody expected them to be forever locked.
But there's only so much interest in Kommandos versus what looks to just be a "basic" Guardsman kit. I can only see so many people snapping these up for Kommandos, but man anyone who wants to sell Krieg is probably going to make $$$.
Additionally, the teases we've had from Rumor Engine point towards:
-Tyranids(some bits that looked Lictor-y)
-Genestealer Cult(a big bada-boom detonator)
-Craftworlds(gloved ranger-y hand on a mine/beacon)
Ack, just realized the DKoK & Kommando rules can only be found in the Octarius box. Looks like I'll need to get the full box after all, don't fancy the idea of having to wait for months just to get rules to all the factions, who knows when GW will releases those (they are not included in the Compendium, duh!).
I am trying to get as many people to play KT as possible from our 40K group, which is why I'll need to have rules and stats for every faction available for the game, in case someone wants to join in.
tauist wrote: Ack, just realized the DKoK & Kommando rules can only be found in the Octarius box.
They said in the Stream that the Compendium also will include those Factions from the Ocatarius Set.
flaherty wrote: [img]Is that a new Astra Militarum/DKoK transfer sheet up by the box?
The maroon diamonds looks similar to a transfer sheet made by Forgeworld.
If so, it seems to augur well for the belief that a larger DKoK release is in the offing.
There is a Rumor which says that GW will overtake the FW Tranfers from Horus Heresy. Possible that all new Transfers have the same Quality - see the newest CSM Transfers.
I made a scale comparison of the new Death Korps models.
They come indeed on 25mm bases. Actually they are smaller than I thought, in line with Cadians.
Sadly I don't have the Forge World versions to compare them to, but even though the new Death Korps are probably a bit beefier and have slightly larger lasguns, I think they won't look out of place.
If you like list building like in Necromunda or old Kill Team, then you'll probably have a hard time. The new roster selection rules are very streamlined and restricted.
kirotheavenger wrote: Prices are out;
£125 for the box
£30 for the core book
£30 for the compendium
£20 for the essentials
£20 per dice set
£30 for the books is very insulting. They didn't even have the decency to make them hardback. I don't even want 90% of the compendium!
Oof on the softcover books.
Box is as expected, I still think it's too high, but I don't like the terrain, so...
Do we know if the cards are the same as the extra cards?
It sounds like the separate cards are identical that come with the boxed game, they did the exact same thing when releasing the last edition.
For those who want a rule book, I am sure you will be able to grab one on eBay for much cheaper than £30 from those buying a couple of boxes or splitting boxes. Same goes for the cards and the essentials.
How swappable are the Krieg heads? Could you easily use a 3rd party head or they really integrated?
They are integrated. Each head is meant to fit a specific body, as each head comes with an attached hose that attaches to the rebreather unit on the bodies. Therefore you also can't turn the heads.
Polygon review. Not exactly my go-to for miniatures gaming critiques, and some clear conflicting statements with news articles from GW, so take it with a grain of salt.
Multiple models in melee alluded to: outnumbering your opponent in engagement range give +1 to hit in melee. Hrm. Going to have to review datacards and cogitate here.
I'm just trying to justify in my head now, the terrain could be useful, and then the Orks.
Will I want to paint up the Orks? Maybe, they do look like fun models, but that would be it.
I can't see me selling them on for that much to make the outlay justifiable.
Swapping the Orks for more DKoK.
£125, let's say £60 worth of terrain and rules in total (sort of, £125 is probably a great deal once we know the terrain RRP of the box), so £32.50 per squad, and if I swap, that's £65 for two squads of Guardsmen.
Take 10-20% off that for 3rd party... So £26 per DKoK squad, sounds about right...
kirotheavenger wrote: What about using a different head entirely that doesn't have a hose? Is it a flat neck joint?
Well, if there is a knife, there is a way
The necks are part of the bodies, and you slot the head into the neck and collar section. Using different heads is not impossible, but you would have to trim each head until it fits (and probably need to fill the inevitable gaps with green stuff).
kirotheavenger wrote: What about using a different head entirely that doesn't have a hose? Is it a flat neck joint?
Well, if there is a knife, there is a way
The necks are part of the bodies, and you slot the head into the neck and collar section. Using different heads is not impossible, but you would have to trim each head until it fits (and probably need to fill the inevitable gaps with green stuff).
solkan wrote: I think it's hilarious that they're doing a two week pre-order window and the box is probably going to spend thirteen days, twenty three hours, and fifty five minutes of that sold out online.
Edit: Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for the "Kill Team Essentials" accessory box and cards to sell out?
They said they've produced as many of the Kill Team set as they have Dominion, and that's still available online.
I don't remember the exact wording but I don’t think they said they made as many as Dominion. They said they made plenty so they were expecting it to hang around for a while, similar to how Dominion has hung around for a while.If they aren’t expecting it to be as popular as Dominion maybe they made less, if they were expecting it to be more popular, maybe they made more.
In essence we have maybe 3 minutes instead of 30 seconds? Shame I really wanted a box set...
Glass Half Dead has a video going through the rulebook.
Each friendly supporting in combat (IE engaged with your target but not engaged with anyone else) gives the person attacking +1 to-hit.
TBH not that powerful, melee attacking a Custodes with a Guardsman is 100% a suicidal waste of time, no matter how many guys you have on him.
Best they could do is get a single hit through if they're the attacker.
I made a scale comparison of the new Death Korps models.
They come indeed on 25mm bases. Actually they are smaller than I thought, in line with Cadians.
Sadly I don't have the Forge World versions to compare them to, but even though the new Death Korps are probably a bit beefier and have slightly larger lasguns, I think they won't look out of place.
Thank you for posting the pic. They're exactly the size I was hoping for, they will look perfect next to the primaris marines.
I made a scale comparison of the new Death Korps models.
They come indeed on 25mm bases. Actually they are smaller than I thought, in line with Cadians.
Sadly I don't have the Forge World versions to compare them to, but even though the new Death Korps are probably a bit beefier and have slightly larger lasguns, I think they won't look out of place.
Thank you for posting the pic. They're exactly the size I was hoping for, they will look perfect next to the primaris marines.
Just to add, this is one of the charging/hunched over poses, there are more upright poses as well. I think stood up straight they'll be taller than Cadian, not by much, but they will be.
Watching Glass's video, the pre-game step of this game looks like a real palaver.
You need to randomly generate your secondary objectives by repeatedly drawing and discarding cards (even more of a faff if you don't shell out for GW's toot), you need to draw operatives, you need to draw equipment.
I agree. This book has a lot of obnoxious 'branded' language like Turning Points, Killzones, and shapes.
In the Exchange Shooting Point-of-Battle, both Operational Commanders utilise their Munitorum Rangetapes(tm) to Calculate Range, then roll their Changer's Randomators(tm) to see if the target is hit. If any hits are scored, they check and roll their Changer's Randomators(tm) again to see if they successfully Cause Injury. On any successful Cause Injury, the Hostile Operator suffers the Damage Infliction number. If this exceeds their Medicae Vitals, they are removed from the board and count as Fatally Slain.
kirotheavenger wrote: Watching Glass's video, the pre-game step of this game looks like a real palaver.
You need to randomly generate your secondary objectives by repeatedly drawing and discarding cards (even more of a faff if you don't shell out for GW's toot), you need to draw operatives, you need to draw equipment.
Holy hell did they really take Apocalypse, a game that was utterly killed by turning it into a CCG, and think "hey we need this but *MORE*"?
I didn't even mention the scouting phase! Secretly pick an effect to determine who has first turn. Why is this even a thing?
In fairness, the Scouting Phase was janktastic garbage in the previous iteration of Kill Team. It's return is tradition, as is (likely) everyone ignoring it.
I'm not paying $100 for two books. It's ridiculous....
I paid $13.50 for the Barons War PDF. Is the amount of enjoyment i derive from this system going to be 5x more enjoyable and better than the alternative?
Sledgehammer wrote: Is it really $135 just for the rulebooks? Like why? Back to playing Barons War with my bro then.
Until we get US prices confirmed(they sometimes are a bit different than just doing the conversions), it would be: $50USD for Compendium...which is, to use the marketspeak:
Containing complete and updated rules for 19 factions, the Kill Team: Compendium is the perfect companion to the boxed set and core rules. In all, there are datasheets for a full 55 fireteams and 187 types of operatives for nearly every faction in the 41st Millennium, as well as unique Strategic and Tactical Ploys, and faction-specific equipment.
$50USD for the Core Rules(which includes the same things that the TacOps cards have) $35 for the "Essentials"(which is a set of barricades, the measurement tools, and all the counters for the game) I haven't seen a price yet for the TacOps cards which are two sets of the same cards with an additional six cards so each person can 'hide' their choices.
TLDR: It's $135 for the complete armies lists, the core rules, measurement tools, barricades, and counters.
I agree. This book has a lot of obnoxious 'branded' language like Turning Points, Killzones, and shapes.
In the Exchange Shooting Point-of-Battle, both Operational Commanders utilise their Munitorum Rangetapes(tm) to Calculate Range, then roll their Changer's Randomators(tm) to see if the target is hit. If any hits are scored, they check and roll their Changer's Randomators(tm) again to see if they successfully Cause Injury. On any successful Cause Injury, the Hostile Operator suffers the Damage Infliction number. If this exceeds their Medicae Vitals, they are removed from the board and count as Fatally Slain.
It seems local shops could only order in batches of 16 (supposedly 15+demo).
My friend works in a shop and they wanted to order more than 16, but 32 was way too many for them. So they had to stick to 16.
I'm not paying $100 for two books. It's ridiculous....
I paid $13.50 for the Barons War PDF. Is the amount of enjoyment i derive from this system going to be 5x more enjoyable and better than the alternative?
I’m a pulp alley player primarily ( literally the best skirmish game I’ve played in 25 years of trying a ton of stuff). Costs around $11 for the pdf.
BUT if I hadn’t found the two or three guys I regularly play off brand stuff I would be forced to pony up for the new edition or just not play any games. It’s a fact in my local scene and in places I have lived in DC, MD, AZ, KY, VA and PA that the choice is often either GWor nothing.
I also played last edition kill team. It was a decent game and the price was low enough that I could play using my existing miniatures. I won’t be buying the new one and I suspect GW won’t miss my money.
I like the divide of having to decide between conceal & engage. Still have my doubts but already looking forward to seeing how playing the new edition feels!
The individual item & book prices mean that I'll be going with the box for sure.
here are the Guerrilla vids embedded for convenience
We’ve all been there on pre-order day – we set our alarm, logged into our Games-Workshop.com account, and braced ourselves to set the world speed record for adding items to a cart… all in the hope of getting that awesome new launch box. And we’ve probably all missed out on something we really wanted because we weren’t fast enough, the doorbell rang, our cat spilled coffee on the keyboard, or scalpers got there first.
Well, not this time!
Running out of stock sucks. We know we’ve let you down in the past – so we’re going to do something about it, right now.
This weekend, Games Workshop is making a promise to everyone who orders Kill Team: Octarius during the pre-order weekend – we guarantee you’ll get a copy. Simple!
So, feel free to answer that doorbell or take your cat downstairs knowing you don’t need to scour the internet and pay some dirty scalper a cut just to get the latest boxed set.
Everyone who pre-orders a copy of the new Kill Team this weekend will get one.
There’s some nuance here… we’ll be shipping them out first come, first served. If you get in late, it might just take longer to get them to you… potentially several months longer – but you WILL get your copy.
Sounds like built-in Made to order. I can't complain about that.
Several months? Is it really worth buying if you might have to wait several months to get it? Especially since you won't really know when you order whether you'll get one on release or have to wait several months for it.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Several months? Is it really worth buying if you might have to wait several months to get it? Especially since you won't really know when you order whether you'll get one on release or have to wait several months for it.
It’s as much to dissuade scalpers than anything.
GW want people playing this game. Whether it’s any good or not entirely aside, they’ve invested time and money into its development. If it all ends up in the hands of Scalpers splitting the box down? That impacts their potential player based from the get go.
Balanced is reroll a die. This one took me a bit to puzzle out before I realized that its utility is in generating extra dice (around 25% more total successes) to parry with (or out-feint a parrying foe to land a little more damage or damage on the defense), balanced by the Power Sword doing crits 60% more crits and 20% more damage.
Just finished watching the Guerrilla batrep. Looks like my concerns about melee being excessively lethal compared to shooting turned out to be a non-issue. I really liked many things about the game. Only thing I didn't like was the tiny board, which led to outright silly moments in the game, with the DKoK being unable to manouver properly and ending up dead. I still think a 4x4' board will work well for KT2 in allowing proper placement.
SamusDrake wrote: The only reason that set is going to sell out is because the game is too damn expensive individually.
Seriously though, guys, has there been a mistake on those prices for the rule books? The fact that they're softbacks just doesn't ring right at all.
I'm really hoping that's a mistake, if they're softback they shouldn't be comparable to the drukhari codex which is 50 usd. 35-40 bucks at the most. If it's 100 bucks in books just to play then I might be out. I'm still not even convinced this edition will even be good.
Bushido's rulebook(my most recent paperback purchase) was $26.99 for 94 pages. $50 isn't wildly crazy to me based upon the 144 page Core Book and the "complete rules for 19 factions, 55 Fireteams and 187 types of Operatives) in the Compendium.
tauist wrote: Just finished watching the Guerrilla batrep. Looks like my concerns about melee being excessively lethal compared to shooting turned out to be a non-issue. I really liked many things about the game. Only thing I didn't like was the tiny board, which led to outright silly moments in the game, with the DKoK being unable to manouver properly and ending up dead. I still think a 4x4' board will work well for KT2 in allowing proper placement.
Can't wait to get playing this one!
Yes. I think the board was way too small and crowded. A standard 4x4 would probably make the game more palatable.
You know, it just doesn't look that fun. So many counters and so much junk to keep track of, random objectives that make you do seemingly pointless things, and it mostly doesn't seem to matter much if you position yourself in cover, it's mostly who can roll more crits. Most of the decisions come from using the strategems/tactics or whatever they're called in this game.
kirotheavenger wrote: 19 factions sounds great... until you realise you're only interested in a fraction of those.
While this is true (and particularly so for somebody who already has a model investment in 40k/old KT and thus knows what factions they want), there's also a counterbalancing benefit to being able to get rules for all the factions at once rather than blind-buying shrink-wrapped codexes only to find that they don't suit your playstyle once you break it open and make it unreturnable.
In the age of shrink-wrapped books with digital codes, that's not nothing, especially for somebody coming in cold.
kirotheavenger wrote: 19 factions sounds great... until you realise you're only interested in a fraction of those.
While this is true (and particularly so for somebody who already has a model investment in 40k/old KT and thus knows what factions they want), there's also a counterbalancing benefit to being able to get rules for all the factions at once rather than blind-buying shrink-wrapped codexes only to find that they don't suit your playstyle once you break it open and make it unreturnable.
In the age of shrink-wrapped books with digital codes, that's not nothing, especially for somebody coming in cold.
Or they could've just included them in the core rulebook like last time, but then they couldn't get another £20-£30 out of people.
kirotheavenger wrote: 19 factions sounds great... until you realise you're only interested in a fraction of those.
While this is true (and particularly so for somebody who already has a model investment in 40k/old KT and thus knows what factions they want), there's also a counterbalancing benefit to being able to get rules for all the factions at once rather than blind-buying shrink-wrapped codexes only to find that they don't suit your playstyle once you break it open and make it unreturnable.
In the age of shrink-wrapped books with digital codes, that's not nothing, especially for somebody coming in cold.
Oh I agree, a compendium is a great thing.
The point I intended to illustrate is that 19 factions doesn't really make up for the high price. I'll probably only pull half a dozen datasheets, maybe a full dozen, and the rest will dead weight to carry between games. £30 for that is a hard nope.
Albino Squirrel wrote: You know, it just doesn't look that fun. So many counters and so much junk to keep track of, random objectives that make you do seemingly pointless things, and it mostly doesn't seem to matter much if you position yourself in cover, it's mostly who can roll more crits. Most of the decisions come from using the strategems/tactics or whatever they're called in this game.
That's kind of what AA games need to keep track of things.
chaos0xomega wrote: They never said anything about making loads of Hexfire.
a frighteningly large segment of the community doesn't consider terrain to be a meaningful return on value
Are you implying it is?
I've put in an order for three copies with my local *because* of the terrain. The Kommandos and Kriegers are just a bonus.
I made a scale comparison of the new Death Korps models.
They come indeed on 25mm bases. Actually they are smaller than I thought, in line with Cadians.
They look more petite than the cadians to my eyes, a pleasant surprise to me. I realize they're taller (the Krieger in that photo has a lot of "lean" in its pose) but they aren't as bulky/have more realistic proportions (even if some might insist that their ankles are unrealistically small).
kirotheavenger wrote: Those sprues are interesting.
How swappable are the Krieg heads? Could you easily use a 3rd party head or they really integrated?
They are integrated. Each head is meant to fit a specific body, as each head comes with an attached hose that attaches to the rebreather unit on the bodies. Therefore you also can't turn the heads.
I told the lot of you so a bunch of pages back, but noooo, you insisted I was wrong based on blurry pics of the sprues.
Turning Points are actually rounds, rather than turns.
Not that that makes it any better.
a_typical_hero wrote: My local dealer, who in comparison is a really small shop, was able to order 16 boxes.
Feels less limited than Indomitus, Dominion and others combined.
Just you wait until GW sells through its retail allocation in the next few days and then starts calling retailers to tell them that their orders are being cut in half, and then that they are being cut in half again. We saw the same thing happen with Indomitus.
Eh, to be fair a lot of players use turns and rounds interchangeably/incorrectly anyway, so it doesn't really matter. I've read a few reviews already that have said "turning points are what they call turns" or something to that effect.
it would seem pretty obvious that this is an inaccurate statement, as the game is played out over precisely 4 turning points - if turning points were turns, then that would mean there would be, at most, 4 activations (including group activations) over the course of an entire game - not per player, but in total. Even a slightly more generous interpretation of that would still mean that each player would only have 4 activations over the entire game (8 activations total between both players). Again its obvious that turning points are not "turns" in this scenario too, because nobody wants to play a game where the average mini in their force only gets to act once over the course of an entire game.
SamusDrake wrote: The only reason that set is going to sell out is because the game is too damn expensive individually.
Seriously though, guys, has there been a mistake on those prices for the rule books? The fact that they're softbacks just doesn't ring right at all.
I'm really hoping that's a mistake, if they're softback they shouldn't be comparable to the drukhari codex which is 50 usd. 35-40 bucks at the most. If it's 100 bucks in books just to play then I might be out. I'm still not even convinced this edition will even be good.
You’ll be happy to know the essentials package (tokens and gauges and so forth) add another approximate $34 on top of the books. Oh and possibly the cards are required and decks of most cards from them have been in the $15 neighborhood. So, around $150 to just update to the new edition.
That effectively makes the launch box terrain free and each kill team only $25 each. It’s like 2002 all over again with $25 squad boxes! Or maybe not
Albino Squirrel wrote: Several months? Is it really worth buying if you might have to wait several months to get it? Especially since you won't really know when you order whether you'll get one on release or have to wait several months for it.
I very much imagine that the several months thing is a result of potential logistical issues, if your in a place a long way from Nottingham or wherever the closest factory is, it might well take that long for stuff to be literally shipped around the world to wherever you are, plus lead times in getting the factory tooled to make new boxes of KT2 instead of some other product, etc etc. So, they promise they'll get you one, but it might have to travel to bit to get to you if the pre shipped supplies to the local staging warehouse runs out
Kill Team: Killzone Essentials Price: $35.00
Warhammer 40K: Kill Team Core Book (2021) Price: $50.00
WH40K: Kill Team TAC OPS Cards Price: $18.00
WH40K: Kill Team Compendium (2021) Price: $50.00
WH40K: Kill Team Adeptus Astartes Dice Set Price: $35.00
WH40K: Kill Team Chaotica Dice Set Price: $35.00
WH40K: Kill Team Ork Kommandos Dice Set Price: $35.00
WH40K: Kill Team Death Korps of Krieg Dice Set Price: $35.00
You’ll be happy to know the essentials package (tokens and gauges and so forth) add another approximate $34 on top of the books. Oh and possibly the cards are required and decks of most cards from them have been in the $15 neighborhood. So, around $150 to just update to the new edition.
That effectively makes the launch box terrain free and each kill team only $25 each. It’s like 2002 all over again with $25 squad boxes! Or maybe not
Warhammer Community wrote:Also available both separately to the main Kill Team: Octarius box are these handy Kill Team: Tac Ops Cards. You get two identical decks of 27 cards, one for each player, which cover all 24 of the secondary objectives listed in the Core Book, as well as three cards you can use to hide your choices.
All 24 of the secondary objectives found in the Tac Ops Cards are in the Core Book.
Kill Team: Killzone Essentials Price: $35.00
Warhammer 40K: Kill Team Core Book (2021) Price: $50.00
WH40K: Kill Team TAC OPS Cards Price: $18.00
WH40K: Kill Team Compendium (2021) Price: $50.00
WH40K: Kill Team Adeptus Astartes Dice Set Price: $35.00
WH40K: Kill Team Chaotica Dice Set Price: $35.00
WH40K: Kill Team Ork Kommandos Dice Set Price: $35.00
WH40K: Kill Team Death Korps of Krieg Dice Set Price: $35.00
Thanks for confirming the prices Scott.
Its a hard pill to swallow but it is what it is. Stargrave it is.
privateer4hire wrote: So only $135 to play rather than $153 if you use the book resource versus cards.
Hopefully the careless developer who left those card-related information in the books was given the sack. That’s $18 just lying on the table.
Have you actually ever looked into how much it costs now?
$60 for Commanders, $40 for Elites, $40 for Killzones. And that's not counting the price of the original Kill Team Core Book(I want to say $40? I can't find it listed easily) or the cards.
privateer4hire wrote: So only $135 to play rather than $153 if you use the book resource versus cards.
Hopefully the careless developer who left those card-related information in the books was given the sack. That’s $18 just lying on the table.
Have you actually ever looked into how much it costs now?
$60 for Commanders, $40 for Elites, $40 for Killzones. And that's not counting the price of the original Kill Team Core Book(I want to say $40? I can't find it listed easily) or the cards.
I paid for the original core book, felt like the game sucked and promptly quit.
Shadow War Armageddon has everything in one book.....
Yes. I played last edition and only used the core book with models I already had as well as terrain. That’s all that was required to play casualty since stats were included for lots of basic units.
Now to achieve that same level it’s $100 if you use the book for secondary objectives, make your own tokens and movement templates, etc.
Not saying last edition was super cheap if you bought into all the expansions and killzones but for around $40 veteran players were able to play with what they had and even dabble in armies they would never consider collecting for full blown 40k.
The core manual for the last edition was hard to fault at £25 and bought together with a copy of First Strike one was up and gaming for only £50.
In comparison its the Rules and Compedium and a copy of the 40K Recruit edition, costing a whopping £92.50. The least they could have done was included the rules for the Marines and Necrons in the rule book so that beginners only had to spend £62.50 instead...
Do me a solid and go look at what actually came with stats in the Core Book for KT again.
It wasn't all the factions in the Compendium, and it definitely feels like you're making it out to be a heck of a lot more than it actually was.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote: The core manual for the last edition was hard to fault at £25 and bought together with a copy of First Strike one was up and gaming for only £50.
In comparison its the Rules and Compedium and a copy of the 40K Recruit edition, costing a whopping £92.50. The least they could have done was included the rules for the Marines and Necrons in the rule book so that beginners only had to spend £62.50 instead...
Why would they include two specific factions in the core book?
The idea isn't for you to just buy a starter set for 40k and go from there. It's buying unit boxes. That's been, consistently, what they keep driving at for Kill Team.
I played gsc and space marines. Not competitive level but could get in games at the store using what I had just with the core book. I know Elites added more and lots of guys bought it, commander ( which everyone locally seemed to dislike) and so forth. But I was still able to field basic cult and marines and get some games in.
At this point, this is what it will be. I think GW are happier charging more and thinking they will make up the difference of any folks who decide not to go with the new edition.
Why would they include two specific factions in the core book?
The idea isn't for you to just buy a starter set for 40k and go from there. It's buying unit boxes. That's been, consistently, what they keep driving at for Kill Team.
Because they're pushing Necrons and Space Marines hard with this edition, and if you do have a newcomer to 40K its very likely they will have one of the current starter sets. Its not rocket science...
SamusDrake wrote:Because they're pushing Necrons and Space Marines hard with this edition, and if you do have a newcomer to 40K its very likely they will have one of the current starter sets. Its not rocket science...
Then they can grab the Compendium and have the rules for both plus a lot more?
One of the things that people consistently seem to ignore is that once you're done with the "building your forces" step? Most people could reasonably get away with sharing these books in a casual gameplay setting. It's only in comp garbage that you would have timing and the like being an issue.
Also, we could have had profile cards intended to be an item as part of this release...but given how ridiculous anything cardstock is right now, it's up in the air.
Kanluwen wrote: Do me a solid and go look at what actually came with stats in the Core Book for KT again.
It wasn't all the factions in the Compendium, and it definitely feels like you're making it out to be a heck of a lot more than it actually was.
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SamusDrake wrote: The core manual for the last edition was hard to fault at £25 and bought together with a copy of First Strike one was up and gaming for only £50.
In comparison its the Rules and Compedium and a copy of the 40K Recruit edition, costing a whopping £92.50. The least they could have done was included the rules for the Marines and Necrons in the rule book so that beginners only had to spend £62.50 instead...
Why would they include two specific factions in the core book?
The idea isn't for you to just buy a starter set for 40k and go from there. It's buying unit boxes. That's been, consistently, what they keep driving at for Kill Team.
I suspect the compendium will only be a temporary thing. Any one remember the 40k indexes they did? I image they either will do books for each unit, cards and such or box sets containing two squads to fight, a new killzone terrain, and a book for the new killzone. Given that the terrain boxes are $100 usd. I am thinking if they do add ons with two fractions with a new killzone it will be $150-160 USD and not include the original book, or it will and will be 199.
If they do to this edition what they did with the previous kill team adding elites commanders and other nonsense I will be done with it just as fast as it starts. Same as I was with the old Kill Team. But because I love orks i will give this one a go. Atleast for the initial box set buy in.
I'm not going to defend GW's prices, but I don't really compare these two editions to each other. It's quite clear KT2 was a much more labour intensive task for the devs than KT1, which was mostly a copy/paste job from the 40K material of that time, dataslates included.
Also, you need to consider that while KT1 was meant as an entry point into 40K proper, KT2 seems more like it's own independent thing this time. It's targeted more towards skirmish fans who would never get into 40K proper in the first place. To me, this is GW's version of Xcom.
At the cheapest level, one can still play KT2 with just the core rulebook, battlescribe and tokens from a 3rd party supplier if they really want to spend as little as possible. Such an approach is quite common among 40K players, at least.
I like the fact that all factions get their datasheets simultaneously. I hear many 40K players begging GW to do a similar thing with the bigger game, yet when they do it for KT2 it's suddenly a terrible idea??!
I don't think anyone is complaining about getting all the factions at once. They are complaining about paying $50 for the Compendium and $50 for the Core Rules. They would probably be fine with it if it was $50 for the two of them shrink-wrapped together.
I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
Well, they did state there are 19 factions in the Compendium while the Kill Team website list 21 factions
tauist wrote: I'm not going to defend GW's prices, but I don't really compare these two editions to each other. It's quite clear KT2 was a much more labour intensive task for the devs than KT1, which was mostly a copy/paste job from the 40K material of that time, dataslates included.
Also, you need to consider that while KT1 was meant as an entry point into 40K proper, KT2 seems more like it's own independent thing this time. It's targeted more towards skirmish fans who would never get into 40K proper in the first place. To me, this is GW's version of Xcom.
Absolutely. A lazy effort to make a 40k lite entry point into the actual game selling for $40 in rules is one thing, but you can't expect that same price point for a completely new effort that actually delivers a much more mature and mechanically sound skirmish game.
tauist wrote: I like the fact that all factions get their datasheets simultaneously. I hear many 40K players begging GW to do a similar thing with the bigger game, yet when they do it for KT2 it's suddenly a terrible idea??!
Yeah, the cardinal sin here is clearly not doing the obviously logistically impossible pipe-dream of 40k players where every one of the 20+ factions gets a codex of only their rules, in full detail relative to the edition before it, released simultaneously with the new edition; and make it well balanced, perfectly edited, and extensively playtested while you're at it.
I'm pretty happy to see the compendium. $50 for nearly 200 models' rules is a steak, and given that Kill Team is the one place in the hobby where I can entertain the notion of actually starting new factions just to paint some models I like, or to explore new ground, etc, without dropping several hundred dollars and months of my hobby time to paint up a new army, having all the rules for potential new factions to digest and plan is of great value to me, unlike in 40k where I'm nearly monogamous by necessity.
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
Kommandos, at least, are in the Greenskin section on the KT website.
If anything it's likely that there's something different between the two setups, which will come whenever the Kommandos/Veteran Guardsmen get their own releases.
tauist wrote: I'm not going to defend GW's prices, but I don't really compare these two editions to each other. It's quite clear KT2 was a much more labour intensive task for the devs than KT1, which was mostly a copy/paste job from the 40K material of that time, dataslates included.
Also, you need to consider that while KT1 was meant as an entry point into 40K proper, KT2 seems more like it's own independent thing this time. It's targeted more towards skirmish fans who would never get into 40K proper in the first place. To me, this is GW's version of Xcom.
Absolutely. A lazy effort to make a 40k lite entry point into the actual game selling for $40 in rules is one thing, but you can't expect that same price point for a completely new effort that actually delivers a much more mature and mechanically sound skirmish game.
tauist wrote: I like the fact that all factions get their datasheets simultaneously. I hear many 40K players begging GW to do a similar thing with the bigger game, yet when they do it for KT2 it's suddenly a terrible idea??!
Yeah, the cardinal sin here is clearly not doing the obviously logistically impossible pipe-dream of 40k players where every one of the 20+ factions gets a codex of only their rules, in full detail relative to the edition before it, released simultaneously with the new edition; and make it well balanced, perfectly edited, and extensively playtested while you're at it.
I'm pretty happy to see the compendium. $50 for nearly 200 models' rules is a steak, and given that Kill Team is the one place in the hobby where I can entertain the notion of actually starting new factions just to paint some models I like, or to explore new ground, etc, without dropping several hundred dollars and months of my hobby time to paint up a new army, having all the rules for potential new factions to digest and plan is of great value to me, unlike in 40k where I'm nearly monogamous by necessity.
I also like the idea of a Compendium because that means that everyone will have all the datasheets of all their potential opponents. In 40K, I don't know half of the more esoteric units my opponent might field, because I don't have access to their codecii.
Are the Kommandos/Kriegers in the core book, or the Octarius book?
Kanluwen wrote: Kommandos, at least, are in the Greenskin section on the KT website.
They're listed differently (Clan Kommando), don't show off the equipment depth of the new minis, and show the old existing Kommando model.
Greenskins and Kommandos may be two different factions, like Imperial Guard (who get Stormtroopers) and Veteran Guardsmen (who get everything in the new Kreiger kit).
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
Old gw has never left.
True, was just a temporary illusion that they improved cause their community interaction/PR improved a bit.
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
Old gw has never left.
Won’t effect sales I bet, so no need for GW to worry.
The rules are a little steep, but it’s ok I think. The other stuff on top is bit meh, with the rulers and would want acrylic anyway.
But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I agree, I refuse to use KT1/2! Instead I use KT18 and KT21, as per the year of release.
alextroy wrote: I don't think anyone is complaining about getting all the factions at once. They are complaining about paying $50 for the Compendium and $50 for the Core Rules. They would probably be fine with it if it was $50 for the two of them shrink-wrapped together.
Yes, this illustrates what I was getting at. Thank you.
£20 for the rules and £25 for the compendium would have been somewhat reasonable, but £30 each - especially as softbacks - is just GW being stupid.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
At least they aren't adding .0's like in AOS land where even now AOS 2nd edition is referred as AOS 2.0...ummm...if .0 never changes why add .0 in the first place
Apple fox wrote: But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
From watching GMG look at the rulebook & Octarius book, my gut feeling is Compendium for now, then different campaign books to expand the factions. Like for now you have Veteran Guard/Kommandos separate from Imperial Guard/Orks with the Octarius book,
Apple fox wrote: But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
From watching GMG look at the rulebook & Octarius book, my gut feeling is Compendium for now, then different campaign books to expand the factions. Like for now you have Veteran Guard/Kommandos separate from Imperial Guard/Orks with the Octarius book,
Reading between it lines it does sound like the plan to have dedicated Kill-Teams like Kommandos and Vets and the Compendium stuff is (£30) filler until they get around to giving most of the 40k factions their own box.
Question is are they all going to be hidden behind huge boxsets like Octarius? With the way terrain, sorry, 'Kill-Zones' now work, it wouldn't shock me if they were.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
At least they aren't adding .0's like in AOS land where even now AOS 2nd edition is referred as AOS 2.0...ummm...if .0 never changes why add .0 in the first place
It's a bad habit justified by the various stages of 1st ed. Just like 40k 3rd ed saw a paradigm shift of such significance in its latter half that the term 3.5 is used to this day.
I wonder if anybody does it with AoS 3rd ed anymore. I can understand if people didn't trust 2nd ed to be a stable edition after the mess of 1st ed, but I like to think we've moved on from that in the meantime.
As for Kill Team, I agree with the approach mentioned further up the page that with GW's rapid releases, change for the sake of change and DLC mimicry, combining name and release year has merit because it's simple and clear and works regardless of a standalone rule set or rules integrated in the 40k rulebook.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I only count 4? There was the KT rules included in 4th edition 40k (which I'm sad that they never really seemed to revisit that concept, the asymmetric approach where one player played a kill team and the other a team of sentries was interesting), Kill Team 2016, Kill Team 2018 (the "current" edition, I think technically considered the 2nd edition of the 2016 rules), and Kill Team 2021 (the "new" edition, technically considered the 3rd edition of the 2016 rules).
Other than that, theres Shadow War Armageddon which isn't technically Kill Team - spiritually it could be seen as an equivalent to Kill Team, mechanically its a successor to the original Necromunda.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I only count 4? There was the KT rules included in 4th edition 40k (which I'm sad that they never really seemed to revisit that concept, the asymmetric approach where one player played a kill team and the other a team of sentries was interesting), Kill Team 2016, Kill Team 2018 (the "current" edition, I think technically considered the 2nd edition of the 2016 rules), and Kill Team 2021 (the "new" edition, technically considered the 3rd edition of the 2016 rules).
Other than that, theres Shadow War Armageddon which isn't technically Kill Team - spiritually it could be seen as an equivalent to Kill Team, mechanically its a successor to the original Necromunda.
There were at least two different KT ruleset versions released via WD, IIRC. 200 points, no vehicles with more armor than a Rhino, no termie armor... that kinda thing.
This new one is the third box edition (this one, the admech-gsc one and the tau-marines one), so adding the two WD editions it would be the 5th.
Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
SamusDrake wrote: Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
The first box had the 40k rulebook too, but you still needed the units. By that metric, yes, the previous box would be the first stand alone one. But it was still also a modded game of 40k, so...
Is this then the true first edition of Kill Team, seeing as it's actually a different game now?
SamusDrake wrote: Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
The first box had the 40k rulebook too, but you still needed the units. By that metric, yes, the previous box would be the first stand alone one. But it was still also a modded game of 40k, so...
Is this then the true first edition of Kill Team, seeing as it's actually a different game now?
Wait.... What if 40k's next edition is a modded version of Kill Team '21?
Wait.... What if 40k's next edition is a modded version of Kill Team '21?
not impossible, if KT21 does well enough and shows enough popularity. Extermely unlikely, but not flat out impossible.
more likely would be the porting of some of the design elements back into mainstream 40K if they feel they work well at that scale. i dont know which those might be, id have to wait and see how KT21 works in practice, but its possible.
Wait.... What if 40k's next edition is a modded version of Kill Team '21?
not impossible, if KT21 does well enough and shows enough popularity. Extermely unlikely, but not flat out impossible.
more likely would be the porting of some of the design elements back into mainstream 40K if they feel they work well at that scale. i dont know which those might be, id have to wait and see how KT21 works in practice, but its possible.
I could see bringing over the KT random-from-a-selected-set secondary objective making it back over to 40k if it was popular among the competitive community or something. Treat detachment types as fireteam archetypes, assign the generic secondaries to them, and then do the "sub in faction-specific secondaries into the pool and semi-randomly choose" thing that KT21 does.
I could see bringing over the KT random-from-a-selected-set secondary objective making it back over to 40k if it was popular among the competitive community or something. Treat detachment types as fireteam archetypes, assign the generic secondaries to them, and then do the "sub in faction-specific secondaries into the pool and semi-randomly choose" thing that KT21 does.
see, i think that random element, especially in something like objectives, is something most competitive players would LOATHE with a passion, as it takes control out of their hands, which means more randomness they need to account for in list building, and they'd much prefer to choose them so they can build towards a subset of the total they can be good at, like in 40K.
but im not a competitive-level player, maybe im wrong in that regard.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I only count 4? There was the KT rules included in 4th edition 40k (which I'm sad that they never really seemed to revisit that concept, the asymmetric approach where one player played a kill team and the other a team of sentries was interesting), Kill Team 2016, Kill Team 2018 (the "current" edition, I think technically considered the 2nd edition of the 2016 rules), and Kill Team 2021 (the "new" edition, technically considered the 3rd edition of the 2016 rules).
Other than that, theres Shadow War Armageddon which isn't technically Kill Team - spiritually it could be seen as an equivalent to Kill Team, mechanically its a successor to the original Necromunda.
There were at least two different KT ruleset versions released via WD, IIRC. 200 points, no vehicles with more armor than a Rhino, no termie armor... that kinda thing.
This new one is the third box edition (this one, the admech-gsc one and the tau-marines one), so adding the two WD editions it would be the 5th.
Huh, interesting. I wouldn't count the 5th edition Kill Team though, that was less a game and more of a special mission/scenario. I don't remember the 6th edition Kill Team at all, I could only find one reference to it on BGG and thats about it, doesn't seem to have made an impact, looks like it may have snuck in under the radar.
The WD one you're referring to though I think was actually combat patrol/40k in 40 minutes, rather than Kill Team. Similar concept, but scaled up a bit. The rhino armor limit and termie armor ban are both specifically rules that were used in Combat Patrol/40k In 40 Min
chaos0xomega wrote: The WD one you're referring to though I think was actually combat patrol/40k in 40 minutes, rather than Kill Team. Similar concept, but scaled up a bit. The rhino armor limit and termie armor ban are both specifically rules that were used in Combat Patrol/40k In 40 Min
Might very well be the case, all these things kinda blur together after a while ^^
SamusDrake wrote: Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
The first box had the 40k rulebook too, but you still needed the units. By that metric, yes, the previous box would be the first stand alone one. But it was still also a modded game of 40k, so...
Is this then the true first edition of Kill Team, seeing as it's actually a different game now?
Cheers for clearing that up.
As to your second question...depends how you look at it. I would say no but would at least credit it with being a mile stone for the game due to having a complete re-write of the rules. Obviously I haven't played it as its not out yet but from what I've seen so far its still a tournament gateway game with not much else to recommend, and Necromunda still being the better option for narrative campaigns and even a bit of solo play( minimal as it is ).
And to answer the unasked question; I too thought it was odd when KT'18 was referred to as the first edition, and would rather it remain but one edition of many that came before it.
I haven't been following the Kill Team previews recently but just caught up today. Looking forward to playing as Kommandos when it releases and looks like the Guard have some fun options too.
The new missions previewed today look fun and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of these get ported to 40k at some point. Looking forward to trying them out.
I could see bringing over the KT random-from-a-selected-set secondary objective making it back over to 40k if it was popular among the competitive community or something. Treat detachment types as fireteam archetypes, assign the generic secondaries to them, and then do the "sub in faction-specific secondaries into the pool and semi-randomly choose" thing that KT21 does.
see, i think that random element, especially in something like objectives, is something most competitive players would LOATHE with a passion, as it takes control out of their hands, which means more randomness they need to account for in list building, and they'd much prefer to choose them so they can build towards a subset of the total they can be good at, like in 40K.
but im not a competitive-level player, maybe im wrong in that regard.
Nah, I was just writing off-the-cuff, and that was just the first example of easy to encapsulate subsegment of the player base that came to mind. So that wasn't meant to imply that I thought competitive players would actually like it.
Though, some might. There's strong appeal to it, as it does introduce a lot more variety. The competitive scene currently rewards people who can minimize the randomness so that they can have a detailed game plan and hew closely to it with little variation in approach or outcome. Their philosophy is definitely to practice, practice, practice, and engineer the situation to play out as closely to what you've practiced and analyzed and experimented with via repitition as possible. And that's definitely a type of skill and dedication, and it's not wrong to reward it.
But there's another type of skill out there, one of analyzing new situations effectively and quickly, and adapting to what the game and your opponent throw at you. And it's not wrong to reward that, either. This kind of player would thrive under the randomized secondaries format, by being able to assess what secondaries will be most accomplishable against their specific opponent, and what they can multitask best along with the main mission objectives.
To borrow another game as an example, I'd liken it to the difference between M:tG constructed formats and draft formats. They're both perfectly valid ways to play, and they both can be quite competitive, but they draw different types of player (obviously with some overlap) and just because you're good at one doesn't make you good at the other. Kill Team '21 secondary randomness is the draft format of Kill Team.
Honestly, I'm expecting to rather like it. It's smartly designed and a lot easier to swallow in that not only do you exert control over what secondaries go into your 6 cards (though your options are limited by the game, it feels to me like a kind of creative constraint in that it invites you to work within the limitations to succeed) by choosing which and how many of the 6 Archetype-specific cards to swap out for which Faction specific cards to form your Tac Ops pool. Then, you get the game-time control of choosing each from 2. That's a good mix of control (so I feel like I can put my thumb on the scale) and randomness (to introduce variety so I don't just walk into the tournament with a game plan already in mind and have no surprises, or to make this tournament feel different from the next without forcing new mission packs faster than they can be playtested just to keep the meta fresh) for me to challenge my ability to assess and adapt, as well as my ability to practice a game plan.
TL;DR: It's probably fairest to say that a majority of the *currently* successful competitive players will hate it. But best case, it might inspire/reveal a new wave of top players who love it.
Seems despite having lots of options, the Krieger kit is as set as other modern GW plastics. That's a damned shame. And the various circle, triangle, square measurement nonsense is really just a substitute for numbers, making the whole process a waste of time.
tauist wrote: I'm not going to defend GW's prices, but I don't really compare these two editions to each other. It's quite clear KT2 was a much more labour intensive task for the devs than KT1, which was mostly a copy/paste job from the 40K material of that time, dataslates included.
Also, you need to consider that while KT1 was meant as an entry point into 40K proper, KT2 seems more like it's own independent thing this time. It's targeted more towards skirmish fans who would never get into 40K proper in the first place. To me, this is GW's version of Xcom.
Absolutely. A lazy effort to make a 40k lite entry point into the actual game selling for $40 in rules is one thing, but you can't expect that same price point for a completely new effort that actually delivers a much more mature and mechanically sound skirmish game.
tauist wrote: I like the fact that all factions get their datasheets simultaneously. I hear many 40K players begging GW to do a similar thing with the bigger game, yet when they do it for KT2 it's suddenly a terrible idea??!
Yeah, the cardinal sin here is clearly not doing the obviously logistically impossible pipe-dream of 40k players where every one of the 20+ factions gets a codex of only their rules, in full detail relative to the edition before it, released simultaneously with the new edition; and make it well balanced, perfectly edited, and extensively playtested while you're at it.
I'm pretty happy to see the compendium. $50 for nearly 200 models' rules is a steak, and given that Kill Team is the one place in the hobby where I can entertain the notion of actually starting new factions just to paint some models I like, or to explore new ground, etc, without dropping several hundred dollars and months of my hobby time to paint up a new army, having all the rules for potential new factions to digest and plan is of great value to me, unlike in 40k where I'm nearly monogamous by necessity.
I'm afraid the compendium is the index thing all over again. A temporary band aid until they can get out books for every team. GW loves its books and codexes why wouldn't they use this as an opportunity the same as every other product they make.
As far as skirmishes go, necromunda is also a GW skirmish game with decent overall rules... it is the pure amount of books needed to play it that ruined that game.
On the contrary, I'd view the Compendium more as a 'Chapter Approved' book. Something they can print another of later on if they add new troops, factions, or anything else. Why sell one Compendium when they can sell a compendium yearly, on top of the elites and commander expansions, which may have their own compendiums released yearly?
It sounds like you do have to move in 2" segments. For example, when climbing, if the thing is 2.5" tall, it uses up 2 of your 2" segments to climb it, and the third segment to move horizontally onto the ceiling or whatever you're climbing onto. Now, I don't know what value at all the shapes bring to it. Or if the game actually gains anything from doing the movement in rounded 2" segments like this.
Seems despite having lots of options, the Krieger kit is as set as other modern GW plastics. That's a damned shame. And the various circle, triangle, square measurement nonsense is really just a substitute for numbers, making the whole process a waste of time.
If there was only a common set of measurement units everybody could understand, and use at a glance... we could call it numbers!
Cannot have the players building all the options with just one kit. The need to pay GW more money.
Seems despite having lots of options, the Krieger kit is as set as other modern GW plastics. That's a damned shame. And the various circle, triangle, square measurement nonsense is really just a substitute for numbers, making the whole process a waste of time.
If there was only a common set of measurement units everybody could understand, and use at a glance... we could call it numbers!
Cannot have the players building all the options with just one kit. The need to pay GW more money.
M.
the matched play info .... no specialists. This willl be interesting to see pan out.
The A73 thing is nothing. Obviously that's just a space saving measure so that you can have an uplifting primer and a trench shovel (or whatever cool bits) instead of three identical right elbows. Remember, a guard squad in 40k can't have multiple specials, and that's undoubtedly where they're going to sell most of these kits.
The real worry is what he wasn't saying about the other armies. It really sounded like the non-octarius teams don't have the cool flavor and pseudo-specialists that make the dkk vets and kommandos interesting. Which would be a shame and dampen my interest. If 19/21 teams are "dude with bolter and nothing else" and "dude with meltagun and nothing else", it's going to be more than a bit bland.
drbored wrote: On the contrary, I'd view the Compendium more as a 'Chapter Approved' book. Something they can print another of later on if they add new troops, factions, or anything else. Why sell one Compendium when they can sell a compendium yearly, on top of the elites and commander expansions, which may have their own compendiums released yearly?
Judging by the Octarius book being bound to the boxset and the 'kill zones' very specifically using the terrain from the box, I think the plan will be to release more boxes like Octarius going forward. New campaign book, new set of terrain, two new teams. Then after the big box has sold out, they'll release all of those separate, but the FOMO element is the discount (which will probably be devoured by a rulebook/counter/measuring stick reprint) and having it months in advance.
Albino Squirrel wrote: It sounds like you do have to move in 2" segments. For example, when climbing, if the thing is 2.5" tall, it uses up 2 of your 2" segments to climb it, and the third segment to move horizontally onto the ceiling or whatever you're climbing onto. Now, I don't know what value at all the shapes bring to it. Or if the game actually gains anything from doing the movement in rounded 2" segments like this.
Based on the terrain article, they did it in pieces to make difficult terrain easier. Hopping an obstacle ('a traverse'), is just a matter of forfeiting one of your three 2" moves and ignoring the vertical movement altogether.
So Traversable terrain is functionally not 3 dimensional in the movement phase, but a Vantage Point is? But only the part of the terrain that's specifically defined as a vantage point, so that won't be confusing.
And some terrain can't be traversed or climbed but only scrambled over, and that's... different somehow.
None of this really justifies the three piece movement or the colored shape distances, just more finicky stuff on top.
Trimarius wrote: The A73 thing is nothing. Obviously that's just a space saving measure so that you can have an uplifting primer and a trench shovel (or whatever cool bits) instead of three identical right elbows. Remember, a guard squad in 40k can't have multiple specials, and that's undoubtedly where they're going to sell most of these kits.
The real worry is what he wasn't saying about the other armies. It really sounded like the non-octarius teams don't have the cool flavor and pseudo-specialists that make the dkk vets and kommandos interesting. Which would be a shame and dampen my interest. If 19/21 teams are "dude with bolter and nothing else" and "dude with meltagun and nothing else", it's going to be more than a bit bland.
In the beginning of the vid, he specifically stated that he cannot talk about the Compendium until 14th of August.
tauist wrote: I'm not going to defend GW's prices, but I don't really compare these two editions to each other. It's quite clear KT2 was a much more labour intensive task for the devs than KT1, which was mostly a copy/paste job from the 40K material of that time, dataslates included.
Also, you need to consider that while KT1 was meant as an entry point into 40K proper, KT2 seems more like it's own independent thing this time. It's targeted more towards skirmish fans who would never get into 40K proper in the first place. To me, this is GW's version of Xcom.
Absolutely. A lazy effort to make a 40k lite entry point into the actual game selling for $40 in rules is one thing, but you can't expect that same price point for a completely new effort that actually delivers a much more mature and mechanically sound skirmish game.
tauist wrote: I like the fact that all factions get their datasheets simultaneously. I hear many 40K players begging GW to do a similar thing with the bigger game, yet when they do it for KT2 it's suddenly a terrible idea??!
Yeah, the cardinal sin here is clearly not doing the obviously logistically impossible pipe-dream of 40k players where every one of the 20+ factions gets a codex of only their rules, in full detail relative to the edition before it, released simultaneously with the new edition; and make it well balanced, perfectly edited, and extensively playtested while you're at it.
I'm pretty happy to see the compendium. $50 for nearly 200 models' rules is a steak, and given that Kill Team is the one place in the hobby where I can entertain the notion of actually starting new factions just to paint some models I like, or to explore new ground, etc, without dropping several hundred dollars and months of my hobby time to paint up a new army, having all the rules for potential new factions to digest and plan is of great value to me, unlike in 40k where I'm nearly monogamous by necessity.
I'm afraid the compendium is the index thing all over again. A temporary band aid until they can get out books for every team. GW loves its books and codexes why wouldn't they use this as an opportunity the same as every other product they make.
As far as skirmishes go, necromunda is also a GW skirmish game with decent overall rules... it is the pure amount of books needed to play it that ruined that game.
I disagree. Every KT1 book had datasheets for all the factions of the game. I'm pretty sure this will not change in KT2. Sure, there will be new killzone boxes with two teams coming down the line, but I'm 100% sure that will not be the only way factions will be added to the game.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I've seen FOMO being waved around, when it really doesn't apply. Like, I do get black knighting but this one is categorically weird.
Dark Knighting. How many times?
But yeah, if GW is doing what they say they're doing, and you can still order it 16 seconds after pre-orders go live, then there ain't no FOMO here.
Apple fox wrote: But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
From watching GMG look at the rulebook & Octarius book, my gut feeling is Compendium for now, then different campaign books to expand the factions. Like for now you have Veteran Guard/Kommandos separate from Imperial Guard/Orks with the Octarius book,
Reading between it lines it does sound like the plan to have dedicated Kill-Teams like Kommandos and Vets and the Compendium stuff is (£30) filler until they get around to giving most of the 40k factions their own box.
Question is are they all going to be hidden behind huge boxsets like Octarius? With the way terrain, sorry, 'Kill-Zones' now work, it wouldn't shock me if they were.
This is definitely my concern. The Krieg team and Kommando team seem like they would be a ton of fun to play and make for some pretty cinematic games. The rest of the factions just seem like "dude with autogun" and "dude with power sword." At least from the profiles they have shown. That's why I'm not picking up the compendium. To me the game looks like a lot of fun, but the compendium factions look uninteresting to play.
I am sincerely hoping we will get other factions with kits like the Krieg and Kommando kits. I also hope those those factions have their rules in their box and don't require another large box like Octarius. Which, like you said, wouldn't really surprise me.
Very sorry if this has been asked- I've just getting back in the swing of things and trying to get caught up.
Question: Do we know if the Krieg will be a full range or just in the this set.
Thank you!
GW has confirmed that the DKoK in Octarius box will be available separately as a standalone plastic kit. They have also made a transfer sheet for Krieg, and there have been rumours of at least the Krieg equivalent of Rough Riders being made into a new kit.
I'd wager at least a few more DKoK kits will be forthcoming. They wouldn't need many kits for one to be able to build an all Krieg army, since all of the current guard vehicles could be used for them as well with just adding some Krieg tranfers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Second batrep from Guerrilla
We've seen the regular Imperial Guard roster, and it is basically just "dude with lasgun, dude with plasmagun, dude with meltagun" etc etc.
Releasing these boxes is all well and good, but I hope that's not the default for Killteam.
They're just crap value for me as I'm not interested in the terrain or more than one of the teams. So this would be a really prohibitive way to sell a game that's meant to be really easy to get into.
Finished watching the second Guerrilla batrep. The DKoK player never seems to use the GA 2 pair effectively.
The strafing run & smart missile seem to be pretty much auto-takes for the vet guards. The strafing run especially is surprisingly effective on this pitifully tiny board size.
tauist wrote: Finished watching the second Guerrilla batrep. The DKoK player never seems to use the GA 2 pair effectively.
The strafing run & smart missile seem to be pretty much auto-takes for the vet guards. The strafing run especially is surprisingly effective on this pitifully tiny board size.
He mention in a comment on video one that only two had GA 2, so would just forget to use it.
tauist wrote: Finished watching the second Guerrilla batrep. The DKoK player never seems to use the GA 2 pair effectively.
The strafing run & smart missile seem to be pretty much auto-takes for the vet guards. The strafing run especially is surprisingly effective on this pitifully tiny board size.
He mention in a comment on video one that only two had GA 2, so would just forget to use it.
Yeah, I realize that. But what I mean is that he doesn't seem to understand that the GA2 duo is in fact a "Specialist model" into itself, there are many things the duo could do the other models can't. He hasn't yet grasped this. He always deploys the duo far from each other, and never uses their synergy to his advantage. Missing the point a bit.
I play Necromunda a lot, in that your champions and leader have the ability to Group Activate with one or two other models, respectively.
I hardly ever use it, the benefits that you get for activating two at once are almost always overshadowed by the benefits of activating models later in the turn (after enemy models have activated, thereby preventing them from immediately responding).
In fact, one of the first pieces of advice to a new player is don't get carried away doing group activations just because you can, which is very common.
Of course, Killteam mitigates that somewhat by offering Overwatch - so activating after your opponent is finished can now be detrimental as you're giving your opponent free shooting.
Group Activation could now be a useful tool to try and finish activating early and benefit from Overwatch yourself.
But I think that's probably the long and short of it?
I play Necromunda a lot, in that your champions and leader have the ability to Group Activate with one or two other models, respectively.
I hardly ever use it, the benefits that you get for activating two at once are almost always overshadowed by the benefits of activating models later in the turn (after enemy models have activated, thereby preventing them from immediately responding).
In fact, one of the first pieces of advice to a new player is don't get carried away doing group activations just because you can, which is very common.
Of course, Killteam mitigates that somewhat by offering Overwatch - so activating after your opponent is finished can now be detrimental as you're giving your opponent free shooting.
Group Activation could now be a useful tool to try and finish activating early and benefit from Overwatch yourself.
But I think that's probably the long and short of it?
Necromunda is different, group activation is an optional thing there. IIUC GA is mandatory in KT2 - the GW rep said in the KT2 video "If your Group Activation is more than two, you MUST activate both models together".
I haven't played KT2 myself yet, but I'm planning to use GA2 operatives always as a tag team: charging the same target twice (if the first charger survives. the second charger will get +1 to hit), shooting the same target twice (maximizing my chances of taking out the target before they have a chance to fire back), using one model to tie an enemy model into combat while the other model steal the objective, and so on... I'm sure there are many neat tricks one can learn to do with them.
Oh you're right, it is mandatory. Interesting, interesting.
(Glass Half Dead has a run through of the core rulebook and Octarius campaign book, he talks about the major points but flicks through the rulebook so you can pause and read everything). The compendium is NDAed until Saturday.
Compendium is the only thing you don't get in the box out of all the separate items.
You get dice in the box, just not those specific faction dice, but that doesn't appear to matter. This game doesn't use proprietary dice - thank Christ! - so it's just an aesthetic change.
This is definitely my concern. The Krieg team and Kommando team seem like they would be a ton of fun to play and make for some pretty cinematic games. The rest of the factions just seem like "dude with autogun" and "dude with power sword." At least from the profiles they have shown. That's why I'm not picking up the compendium. To me the game looks like a lot of fun, but the compendium factions look uninteresting to play.
I am sincerely hoping we will get other factions with kits like the Krieg and Kommando kits. I also hope those those factions have their rules in their box and don't require another large box like Octarius. Which, like you said, wouldn't really surprise me.
While the people who have the Compendium now aren't supposed to talk about it, the vibe I get is that you are exactly right. As opposed to the loads of specialized figures in the box, the Compendium forces are generic. If true, that is a huge missed opportunity. It signals clearly GW is going to be dribbling out additional specific faction rules bit-by-bit, and that bugs me. I would guess, for example, we won't get Dark Eldar rules with lots of special pieces, but rather a sub-designation, like Slave Raid. So eventually you'll be able to either take the boring Dark Eldar generic list, or the fun Slave Raid list, but that will only come with a small team of models like the Veterans and the Ork Commandos in the Octarius box. I was planning on putting together a Sisters of Battle Team, but if my guess is right, then there is a huge dis-incentive to do that now. Better to wait and see what the cool list with interesting options will look like.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I've seen FOMO being waved around, when it really doesn't apply. Like, I do get black knighting but this one is categorically weird.
Dark Knighting. How many times?
Umbral Chivalcading. And I'd better not have to tell you this circle* times. Get your act together, man!
*Also, I need a new keyboard. I am woefully unprepared for this exciting new age.
From what they say here, you can have a unit be active or passive, with only active units being able to shoot etc but passive units being untargetable while in cover.
So, this increases the ability for a unit to hide on a point at the cost of not shooting. Not sure about other actions yet but could be useful
Trimarius wrote: The A73 thing is nothing. Obviously that's just a space saving measure so that you can have an uplifting primer and a trench shovel (or whatever cool bits) instead of three identical right elbows. Remember, a guard squad in 40k can't have multiple specials, and that's undoubtedly where they're going to sell most of these kits.
The real worry is what he wasn't saying about the other armies. It really sounded like the non-octarius teams don't have the cool flavor and pseudo-specialists that make the dkk vets and kommandos interesting. Which would be a shame and dampen my interest. If 19/21 teams are "dude with bolter and nothing else" and "dude with meltagun and nothing else", it's going to be more than a bit bland.
In the beginning of the vid, he specifically stated that he cannot talk about the Compendium until 14th of August.
Yes, he's very pointed about that. So pointed that it's either intentionally leading us to the conclusion that the other teams aren't set up in the same way or he suddenly decided to become a terrible presenter. Which would be a shame.
I mean, I read it as just trying to head off his audience rushing to the comments asking questions about the Compendium, since he can't talk about it.
It's also part of his disclosure that he was sent the review copy at no cost and GW doesn't have editorial veto over his review, which is just decent journalistic transparency at this point.
Trimarius wrote: The A73 thing is nothing. Obviously that's just a space saving measure so that you can have an uplifting primer and a trench shovel (or whatever cool bits) instead of three identical right elbows. Remember, a guard squad in 40k can't have multiple specials, and that's undoubtedly where they're going to sell most of these kits.
The real worry is what he wasn't saying about the other armies. It really sounded like the non-octarius teams don't have the cool flavor and pseudo-specialists that make the dkk vets and kommandos interesting. Which would be a shame and dampen my interest. If 19/21 teams are "dude with bolter and nothing else" and "dude with meltagun and nothing else", it's going to be more than a bit bland.
In the beginning of the vid, he specifically stated that he cannot talk about the Compendium until 14th of August.
Yes, he's very pointed about that. So pointed that it's either intentionally leading us to the conclusion that the other teams aren't set up in the same way or he suddenly decided to become a terrible presenter. Which would be a shame.
Details in the compendium could reveal future releases...
* You actually measure visibility from your operative’s head, so while a shorter model might have an easier time hiding behind cover, they’ll also have a harder time seeing enemies themselves.
Ugh. Why is this system so messed up in so many weird ways?
Simple abstractions work a lot better than worrying about the exact shape and pose of each model, as does not obfuscating simple measurements behind extra layers.
I think LoS and cover is handled fairly well in Killteam.
It only works on the 'Killzones' they've provided though, it kinda falls apart if you play on larger boards or boards with or more varied terrain though.
Glass Half Dead has a good video going through the system.
kirotheavenger wrote: I think LoS and cover is handled fairly well in Killteam.
It only works on the 'Killzones' they've provided though, it kinda falls apart if you play on larger boards or boards with or more varied terrain though.
something I predicted very early on, that the game is designed with the amount of terrain in the box
as soon as you add more or go full 3D, you get into all kind of troubles
The missions given in the Octarius box also set up the battlefield for you (or at least tells you where you need to place the buildings and stuff).
Although fortunately the core book doesn't.
In fairness to them the "vantage point" rules are generic enough that they will apply to anything, in fact I wonder why it's even a keyword. Basically vantage point applies any time you have a 2" height advantage over your target.
Denser or more irregular terrain absolutely won't work though. The cover rules are all about distance from terrain, actual LoS is heavily abstracted away.
I wonder how well it'll work on my Rogue Trader board, or my Necromunda ZM tiles (the old cardboard ones).
Would suck if the game just bad on our city boards, the missions also are way bland.
But if the ballance is off now, maybe bigger boards will make it feel better to play anyway.
Also after reading and watching I am expecting the worst for the other factions, low effort rules for them will just mean another 2 years sitting around waiting for half the group I bet.
Bland missions come directly from 40k.
The core missions are all variants on the same really. "get to these objectives, spread evenly about the battlefield, and spend an AP to score one point".
Judging by the Octarius book being bound to the boxset and the 'kill zones' very specifically using the terrain from the box, I think the plan will be to release more boxes like Octarius going forward. New campaign book, new set of terrain, two new teams. Then after the big box has sold out, they'll release all of those separate, but the FOMO element is the discount (which will probably be devoured by a rulebook/counter/measuring stick reprint) and having it months in advance.
I think this is the deal breaker for me. Releasing limited core boxes over and over again as they cycle through the 21 factions seems to be the worst way to do it. Is this what they learned from Infinity?
I hope they take the Warcry approach.
Releasing individual Killteam boxes will all the rules for using them contained within the box.
In fact a similar card system would probably suit this Killteam team construction pretty well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although my concern is if they only release basic squads with lots of cool specialists, we'll never see cool and more interesting units enter the game.
i was recently having dinner with a friend of a friend of a GW employee who had this take, which I must state is pure, unadulterated supposition and guesswork since the GW employee doesn't actually know "the truth" form his little corner of the company, and couldn't tell us even if he DID know, but goes something like this:
the internal department that is producing and managing Kill Team is the "boxed games" division, so very much like with Aeronutica Imperialis and Adeptus Titanicus, that group tends to think of these boxed sets as being full, stand alone games rather than "starter sets" in the 40K mould per se. Given the nature and history of Kill team, they have to make at least basic rules for all factions, but the idea that they might focus future releases on boxed set expansions al la the Elites/Commanders boxes for the previous version of Kill Team is a reasonable assumption.
it might be wildly off base, but its not a totally crazy idea....
Neither Titanicus, Necromunda, Warcry, nor Blood Bowl follows that "primarily box game" approach, and Aeronautica only half follows it.
Although all of those games started as a single box set that expanded beyond that.
So I don't think it's logical to assume that at all.
While you’re at it, stay tuned to Warhammer Community this week as we take a look into the future of Kill Team and find out how the game will be expanding in the coming months.
xerxeskingofking wrote: i was recently having dinner with a friend of a friend of a GW employee who had this take, which I must state is pure, unadulterated supposition and guesswork since the GW employee doesn't actually know "the truth" form his little corner of the company, and couldn't tell us even if he DID know, but goes something like this:
the internal department that is producing and managing Kill Team is the "boxed games" division, so very much like with Aeronutica Imperialis and Adeptus Titanicus, that group tends to think of these boxed sets as being full, stand alone games rather than "starter sets" in the 40K mould per se. Given the nature and history of Kill team, they have to make at least basic rules for all factions, but the idea that they might focus future releases on boxed set expansions al la the Elites/Commanders boxes for the previous version of Kill Team is a reasonable assumption.
it might be wildly off base, but its not a totally crazy idea....
Aeronautica Imperialis and Titanicus are specialist games, made by the Forge World Studio. The main studio ‘boxed games’ team do Kill Team, Warhammer Underworlds and Warcry, if I recall correctly.
I think it’s more likely that management at GW thought of kill team as a bridge to 40k. And when seeing that many players never want to bridge into 40k as the main game.
They pushed for a alternative that they could continue to monetise.
I think if speculated I think they will just cause more issues if too many teams are effectively left in the dust.
Right now Eldar is looking a bit meh, Tau maybe better. But I hope demons is not half assed again.
It seems obvious the game will focus on the new special teams created just for the game, like the ones in the box, and the compendium teams won't be the same at all. Just look how almost every model in the Kommando and Krieg kill teams are some kind of specialist and it's own selection, the other factions have no specialists. Regular guard just have guardsman and scion. It seems even more pronounced than the difference between the actual warcry warbands, and the rules they put out for people to use their existing models in warcry if they want.
Albino Squirrel wrote: It seems obvious the game will focus on the new special teams created just for the game, like the ones in the box, and the compendium teams won't be the same at all. Just look how almost every model in the Kommando and Krieg kill teams are some kind of specialist and it's own selection, the other factions have no specialists. Regular guard just have guardsman and scion. It seems even more pronounced than the difference between the actual warcry warbands, and the rules they put out for people to use their existing models in warcry if they want.
Yes. I think you hit it. I am still going to grab the game but I’ll wait to start Sisters or a Genestealer Cult until they get their own bespoke rules. Seems like a weird, missed opportunity but I imagine there are financial reasons that make sense internally. It does hurt the viability of the game as a competitor in the sci-fi skirmish market. Infinity and Osprey don’t do this nonsense.
Apple fox wrote:I think it’s more likely that management at GW thought of kill team as a bridge to 40k. And when seeing that many players never want to bridge into 40k as the main game.
They pushed for a alternative that they could continue to monetise.
I think if speculated I think they will just cause more issues if too many teams are effectively left in the dust.
Right now Eldar is looking a bit meh, Tau maybe better. But I hope demons is not half assed again.
Proper Space Marines are absent.
Albino Squirrel wrote:It seems obvious the game will focus on the new special teams created just for the game, like the ones in the box, and the compendium teams won't be the same at all. Just look how almost every model in the Kommando and Krieg kill teams are some kind of specialist and it's own selection, the other factions have no specialists. Regular guard just have guardsman and scion. It seems even more pronounced than the difference between the actual warcry warbands, and the rules they put out for people to use their existing models in warcry if they want.
I think that's a given. GW will drip-feed KT as much as they can, and it will make them a pile of money. People gotta get their fix of Citadel plastic.
privateer4hire wrote: Also may be important to note that AoS stuff seems to be the test ground for 40k to an extent.
Scaled down core rules? AoS did it first.
Dice pool for BsF? Silver Tower was first.
Dedicated and different skirmish rules? Warcry cut the trail.
Which is actually a good thing if WarCry's the way we will be going.
So far, we have Kommandos and Veteran Guardsmen as "dedicated Kill Teams". Kommandos still make an appearance in the Greenskins Kill Team setup(they use the old models for the photos, but that might mean nothing since the actual Ork codex does the same thing for the profile despite it having the Distraction Grot and Breaching Ram) while Veteran Guardsmen don't(but the Guard KT page is pretty underwhelming just showing Scions and Guardsmen) in the Guard one.
I wouldn't be shocked if there's going to be a "Specialist Kill Team" for each faction. Could see Marines getting a "10th Company", consisting of Phobos and Scouts. Craftworlds getting an "Outcasts" of Rangers and some Ranger adjacent stuff(Corsairs even!). Drukhari getting Mandrakes. Tyranids getting a Vanguard Organisms.
According to board game geek AoS skirmish was 2017 release.
I never played AoS skirmish. Is it similar at all to KT 18?
Cheers for that.
Only similar in that both AoS:Skirmish and Kill Team'18 were both skirmish gateways to AoS and 40K, while using simplified rules; for example, each unit moves individually.
Also, both were designed to have either less or no dependecy on their parent games. AoS: Skirmish would only need the free download rules(for AoS), a battletome and the latest General's Handbook for points, which eventually was not required due to the introduction of an online warscroll feature. The following year, KT'18 only required the single purchase of the core manual despite datasheets, tactics and rules being almost identical to 40K itself.
That said, I had flicked through the Shadow War Armageddon manual and had mixed feelings as to whether it was a test bed for either Necromunda or Kill Team...maybe both? Maybe AoS:Skirmish was just an attempt to bring skirmish play to AoS and thats all there was to it, perhaps having no influence to the following KT edition at all.
Skirmish didn't require anything but the free download rules and the book. They used a "Renown" system in lieu of points. You could easily convert points into Renown for things that weren't covered.
Bluntly, it really amounted to nothing but a print test done at a time when they were starting to gear up for making Path to Glory(which is in every single army book for AOS...sound familiar?). It's notable in that it was printed in the UK and was our lead-in for the lore of Shadespire, but aside from that...it's dumpster fodder.
Skirmish was a lead-in to Shadespire, effectively. It was also pretty shoddy.
Yeah, it certainly wasn't as solid a product as KT'18 was on the 40K front, nor the following Warcry or Underworlds, but it was good enough for small and fun games of AoS inbetween larger battles. For a couple of quid it was good value.
Although its something I wish they would update, it is at least still compatible with 3rd edition and sold on Warhammer Digitial.
My enthusiasm for the new edition has drastically gone away after watching the battle report. Too much cheap cardboard trash and clutter that clearly had the bare minimum amount of art/design put into it. Activation tokens, the mission cards etc... they just look very low quality.
At least with WarCry the bespoke unit data shoots had attention paid to the theme and design. It felt very fluffy and "worldly" for the setting of the game/
Kill Team's art style just looks ugly and low-effort. A shame as I was hoping to buy the box set and compendium, but based upon the product i've seen presented I think ill just pay for the rulebooks on their own (which are also far too expensive).
I've been burned too many times before by GW upselling low-energy merchandise. No point in hoping for something to be better than what it clearly is.
* You actually measure visibility from your operative’s head, so while a shorter model might have an easier time hiding behind cover, they’ll also have a harder time seeing enemies themselves.
GW is, bafflingly, doubling down on their absolute worst game design mechanic, which is using TLOS. Just primes every game for litigation over what constitutes "part" of a model and blah, blah. A shame.
A model that is crouched on one knee is ALWAYS crouched on one knee. They do not stand to shoot, climb, signal allies, or any other tasks. They remain consistently at that level for the duration of any conflict.
Well, their head does at least.
Come to think of it a raised wall that that blocks LoS above 1" or so would be great for a short team; their head height would be low enough to draw LoS but taller models behind the same terrain would be unable to shoot (but still could be shot at).
NinthMusketeer wrote: A model that is crouched on one knee is ALWAYS crouched on one knee. They do not stand to shoot, climb, signal allies, or any other tasks. They remain consistently at that level for the duration of any conflict.
Well, their head does at least.
Come to think of it a raised wall that that blocks LoS above 1" or so would be great for a short team; their head height would be low enough to draw LoS but taller models behind the same terrain would be unable to shoot (but still could be shot at).
I suspect that this new edition of Killteam is going to bring new faction specific killteams of all new models with a broad variety of options and the compendium is a hold me over so folks can get playing with their army right away should they so desire. Seems pretty reasonable.
Dread Master wrote: I suspect that this new edition of Killteam is going to bring new faction specific killteams of all new models with a broad variety of options and the compendium is a hold me over so folks can get playing with their army right away should they so desire. Seems pretty reasonable.
Speaking from a perspective of Warcry, there are factors that even things out. The made-for-Warcry units have their whole roster in one box and those rosters are more synergistic (within their theme) where units fill certain roles well but also overlap enough that there is room for customization.
The rules for pre-existing AoS forces are a bit more hit and miss where a lot of units are just slightly different versions of the same thing, have such a specialized use as to be useless, and have far more dud abilities. However, this is counteracted by how many units are available. The made-for factions need a lot of depth in one box because that is all they have, whereas a full army has a massive amount of units to potentially draw from. The depth is more artfully executed for the former (it should be; those units were made specifically for Warcry) but the game experience for the latter is still good.
How much this will translate to Kill Team, we'll see.
Dread Master wrote: I suspect that this new edition of Killteam is going to bring new faction specific killteams of all new models with a broad variety of options and the compendium is a hold me over so folks can get playing with their army right away should they so desire. Seems pretty reasonable.
And when every other faction receives their shiny new kit, one group of players will look up at GW like Oliver asking for more...
"Please James Workshop...may we have some new Craftworld models?"
...the answer will be...
"No, I'm sorry; You'll have to wait your turn...now run along. Ah! Space Marine players rejoice! You asked for Primaris Lieutenants and your prayers have been answered in the new exciting expansion...KILL TEAM: LIEUTENANTS!"
* You actually measure visibility from your operative’s head, so while a shorter model might have an easier time hiding behind cover, they’ll also have a harder time seeing enemies themselves.
What is this s***?
TLOS is only a problem with jerky opponents.
If the ratling sniper wants to not be seen, he can more readily find completely obscuring cover.
Of course, if he wants to shoot, he’s going to have to move out of cover enough to be targeted himself.
There wouldn't be any problems with true line of sight if all of the models were fixed in comparable poses.
The problem with true line of sight is that it's what creates the eternal problem that 40k has with modeling for advantage.
I mean, heck, what use does a model with only melee weapons have for better line of sight in this sort of game? If you don't need line of sight to charge or make a melee attack, then the shorter your model is the better--all being tall does is make you easier to see.
"It's entirely thematic (with no ulterior motivation) that this entire box of daemonettes is modeled with them doing the limbo."
kirotheavenger wrote: Neither Titanicus, Necromunda, Warcry, nor Blood Bowl follows that "primarily box game" approach, and Aeronautica only half follows it.
Although all of those games started as a single box set that expanded beyond that.
So I don't think it's logical to assume that at all.
Well, Titanicus, Aeronautica, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl are all Forgeworld/Specialist Games. Games like Warcry, Kill Team, the Horus Heresy boxed games, Warhammer Quest, etc. come from the Publications team, which is a separate org. There is an evident difference in approach to the products/games produced by the two teams. The Specialist team is selling you a game with rulebooks and minis to expand onto it at your leisure. The Publications team is selling you a product in a box, which they will expand upon generally with other products in a box. Even when they do release standalone books, they are marketed more as an optional expansion to the core rules (i.e. you don't *have* to use Kill Team Commanders or Kill Team Elites, its an optional expansion similar to how you don't *have* to use the Ambull in Blackstone Fortress, its an optional expansion) rather than an intrinsic extension of the core rules (you don't have to buy a warmonger titan if you don't want to, but its universally expected that your opponent have a right to use it if it fits within the points scale of the game because it is an official core aspect of the rules, similar to how you don't have to buy a space marines codex if you play Necrons, but its universally expected that your opponent have a right to use an army built from the space marine codex because its an official core aspect of the rules).
That said, I had flicked through the Shadow War Armageddon manual and had mixed feelings as to whether it was a test bed for either Necromunda or Kill Team...maybe both? Maybe AoS:Skirmish was just an attempt to bring skirmish play to AoS and thats all there was to it, perhaps having no influence to the following KT edition at all.
Probably neither. James M Hewitt has explained that Shadow War Armageddon was released separately by the Publications team while he was working on Necromunda with the Specialist team. He said there was no consultation or cross-communication between himself and the Shadow War team, but that they were fully aware that he was working on Necromunda at the time. He says he doesn't know *why* they would release Shadow War Armageddon, but he has inferred that it was probably the result of parochialism, hurt feelings, or inter-departmental politics as they rushed to release Shadow War out basically using the original Necromunda ruleset with few (if any) real modifications while he was working on the ground-up rewrite of the Necromunda rules. IIRC I think James alluded to the idea that the manager of the publications team was someone who may have worked on Necromunda in the past or something to that effect and felt like they should have been the one to revive Necromunda as a game, and when they were passed up they leveraged their position (and probably personal relationships with higher managers, etc.) to produce Shadow War out of spite in an effort to undercut Necromunda. I cant find the longer interview/q&a/explanation he gave on it, but this is one of the times he mentioned it on twitter: https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1417956999661342731?s=20
The symbols instead of... just putting numbers seems truly baffling. Terrain/movement rules seem needlessly clunky. Lack of points and any real crunchiness when it comes to customization, the models are nice.
The thing is, when I think of a version of kill team I'd like to play, the main thing that comes to mind is wagear and customization. Think xcom or fallout tactics. I want the trade of to be detail and customization. The matched play for this looks really boring, like playing xcom with stock units from an rts that you can't really change or customize. I don't just mean this person has a sniper rifle, this person has a medic kit, I mean a lot more than that, wyswyg on crack.
This is also the other problem with the spec ops team framing, it works better for some factions than others. Nothing wrong with a nid or cron kill team but as you move towards the factions that have less and less characterization/individuality its harder to make the spec ops team thing work. But lack of points is big turn off.
If people want campaigns/narrative I'd think they'd gravitate towards necromunda or already be playing it, one of the weakness of necromunda is matched play.
Kill team if anything should have had a really strong match play to set it apart further from nercromunda, hell someone is going to mod the narrative stuff with points just to make match play more interesting because the amount of kills it seems to take to get to veteran and so on would require more games ala campagin/narrative than people who only have time for matched play could ever hope to have, also because of the blander compendium stuff that all hats to wait for less bland dlc.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: I was really excited for the new kill team, but dipped once I saw bespoke kill teams, no points, and no grey knight termies.
Grey Knight Terminators will likely be added in Elites.
The Bespoke Kill teams are actually boxes of normal troop units (krieg guardsmen and ork kommandos) that happen to have a lot of extra customization bits and options that make them ideal for Kill Team.
Points have been replaced with the 'Fire Team' system, which is thorough enough to not need points, because things like chaff are baked in.
The bespoke kill teams mean it's harder to mix. Space marines have 1 team, iirc, so even if termies are added, mixing will be impossible.
I don't care if termies will be added later. Might buy it then.
If they add a points system, because I enjoy total customization.
Though, my ideal skirmish system is a system where troopers buy stats and equipment from a list where eveything costs points, instead of being locked to certain models. I don't expect anyone to be able to make that balanced, though.
Current kill team just seems boring to me, and I'm not interested at all.
I think we are going to see how well it all fits together when we see if the compendium is more than just a hold over.
Since it’s all good and well to add new units, but if the fire team systems is too limiting for some factions.
It may end up not worth playing some factions again.
Eldar rangers are a big one, I would very much like to run just one. I don’t want to use up half my team allotment for them.
There is also a few ballance oddity haven’t really been addressed at all yet. That if GW don’t have fixes then I suspect it won’t be as balanced as a point system would have been anyway.
In fact, this launch box will be followed up with major new releases every quarter – alongside substantial additional support in places like White Dwarf. In other words, there’s a lot more in the tank.
These new releases will advance the ongoing narrative both in War Zone: Octarius and elsewhere, shining a spotlight on the elite operatives battling it out across the galaxy.
We can’t tell you too much more right now, but you can expect a conveyor belt of new kill teams with plenty of customisable options.
Kill Team: Octarius features an amazing array of terrain, which can be used to create an Ork scrap town for your operatives to fight for control of. But the 41st Millennium is full of wild and exotic battlefields, from soaring cathedrals raised in the name of the God-Emperor to dense jungles where even the plants can be more deadly than enemy warriors. Each quarter, Kill Team will visit a different corner of the galaxy and explore that setting and the battles that are fought there.
I wonder if someone put up an old graphic by the time Octarius is actually released July and August will be gone leaving 1 month until the next set? And will these be £125 a quarter?
Wonder if these will be similarly sized boxed sets? If so, there’s a fair number of Rumour Engines which might point to new KT specific squad boxes.
The way the terrain is a 'all in one' deal where scenarios tell you how to lay out the pieces that you specifically get in the box, I would strongly expect so.
I think even some dedicated whales would balk at paying £125 every quarter for these though. At least Ebay will be stuffed with rulebooks and 'Essentials'.
I take it that the quarter of highlighting a new sector/set of teams includes the announcement/hype phase. That fits, we first heard about KT21 in July, we're getting release in late August, so we'll start getting teasers and hype in October for whatever's next, with a November release. Early November, I'd expect, as they won't have to preview the core rules so it makes sense to shorten the hype phase.
DaveC wrote: I wonder if someone put up an old graphic by the time Octarius is actually released July and August will be gone leaving 1 month until the next set? And will these be £125 a quarter?
Seems to me like that's the actual plan, GW wants to stick with conventional, yearly quarters and Octarius had one or two things throw it off a regular release to fit into its assigned quarter. It may have been caught at the tail end of the last half year of production delays and GW expects to be back on track soon. Or Kill Team had to make way in the release year for a new AoS edition and therefore couldn't be released in July (the usual new edition release time). Or both.
125 pound box every three months? That's actually a good question. That graphic has Games Vagueshop written all over it. Except for "rejoice, there'll be new stuff" it doesn't really tell us what to expect. You'd think it implies a big box every quarter, but I'm not seeing any actual evidence for that. Even though it would make sense.
'Kill zones' seem to be built very strongly around the terrain you get in the box. Between two teams, terrain and the campaign book, the only way I see them skimming fat off to make a box cheaper is removing the rulebook, measuring tools and cards and knocking it down to £95/£100.
Probably neither. James M Hewitt has explained that Shadow War Armageddon was released separately by the Publications team while he was working on Necromunda with the Specialist team. He said there was no consultation or cross-communication between himself and the Shadow War team, but that they were fully aware that he was working on Necromunda at the time. He says he doesn't know *why* they would release Shadow War Armageddon, but he has inferred that it was probably the result of parochialism, hurt feelings, or inter-departmental politics as they rushed to release Shadow War out basically using the original Necromunda ruleset with few (if any) real modifications while he was working on the ground-up rewrite of the Necromunda rules. IIRC I think James alluded to the idea that the manager of the publications team was someone who may have worked on Necromunda in the past or something to that effect and felt like they should have been the one to revive Necromunda as a game, and when they were passed up they leveraged their position (and probably personal relationships with higher managers, etc.) to produce Shadow War out of spite in an effort to undercut Necromunda. I cant find the longer interview/q&a/explanation he gave on it, but this is one of the times he mentioned it on twitter: https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1417956999661342731?s=20
Its a shame they didn't put that hurt energy into a new range of Eldar models!
But at least both games did see the light of day( B5 vs DS9 situation? ) and I've only heard positive things about Shadow War. Flicking through the manual I was quite surprised to see Harlequins had extra units, which I believe were Mimes and Virtuosos? Rookie and veteran Troupe Players, apparently. So I guess the customer won in the end with two games to choose from and some interesting units too.
Arbitrator wrote: 'Kill zones' seem to be built very strongly around the terrain you get in the box. Between two teams, terrain and the campaign book, the only way I see them skimming fat off to make a box cheaper is removing the rulebook, measuring tools and cards and knocking it down to £95/£100.
Rulesbooks, essentials and cards are out on their own. If they wanted an alternative to the launch box, they could have two individual faction boxes for the new models, a Kill Zone box for the terrain and a supplement book for the rules. It would add up in price to more than the launch box, which I'm sure GW wouldn't mind, but could offer people not interested in the new factions the option to just buy the terrain (and obligatory book).
kirotheavenger wrote:Sounds like it was spot on to expect regular installments of Octarius-equivalent boxes.
4 bespoke killteam/killzone boxes per year with 2 teams per box. So it will 2.5 years to get all the factions their teams and then it will be time to start over again with a new box and compendium.
TheBrushKnight wrote:£125 a quarter works out at just under £10 per week. If I can limit my hobby spend to that the wife will be much happier.
It's a Kill Team subscription! Quarterly loot boxes for everyone!
1. Something you already know about. 2. New products for this product line, but we can't say what they are. 3. New products for this product line, but we can't say what they are. 4. And so on... 5. ... and so on... 6. ... and so on...
Worth mentioning that the Core Rules for 40k has some Warzones named in it.
We have quite a few of them on the GW webstore(5th Sphere Expansion is Tau v Imperium v GSC, Scourge Stars is Nurgle forces v Sisters+Ecclesiarchial aligned Guard/Astartes/Knights, Cadia is still in play with Fabius Bile's forces trying to steal meatsacks for Bile to make stuff with, Pariah Nexus for Necrons and Imperial forces) and a few that aren't there yet(Armageddon is seeing Angron show up and there's an Aeldari+Harlequins+Ynnari v Tyranid warzone for example) which might show up going forward.
Some of the warzones might be Big Boxes with "All New Sceneries!1!1!1!" or some might just be repacked scenery with new models in there.
Smart money, currently, is on an Aeldari v Tyranids set coming.
Wonder if these will be similarly sized boxed sets? If so, there’s a fair number of Rumour Engines which might point to new KT specific squad boxes.
The way the terrain is a 'all in one' deal where scenarios tell you how to lay out the pieces that you specifically get in the box, I would strongly expect so.
I think even some dedicated whales would balk at paying £125 every quarter for these though. At least Ebay will be stuffed with rulebooks and 'Essentials'.
GW wants me to pay close to 200 pounds (GW special price for far away places (tm)) for a box of stuff that I will finish painting just in time for the next edition of KT?
I'm going to need more laughing ork emotes than this forum allows.
solkan wrote: There wouldn't be any problems with true line of sight if all of the models were fixed in comparable poses.
The problem with true line of sight is that it's what creates the eternal problem that 40k has with modeling for advantage.
I mean, heck, what use does a model with only melee weapons have for better line of sight in this sort of game? If you don't need line of sight to charge or make a melee attack, then the shorter your model is the better--all being tall does is make you easier to see.
"It's entirely thematic (with no ulterior motivation) that this entire box of daemonettes is modeled with them doing the limbo."
Maybe GW is missing an opportunity to sell laser pointers on sticks of standard heights. So, a marine pointer would be taller than a ratling pointer. And then all that is needed is a 'take cover/crouch behind a wall' or 'go prone/hit the dirt!' type order mechanic that removes LoS problems as such models are either not trying to shoot (hiding) or shooting from ground level (maybe a ground level laser pointer with a GW logo would do)...
GW wants me to pay close to 200 pounds (GW special price for far away places (tm)) for a box of stuff that I will finish painting just in time for the next edition of KT?
I'm going to need more laughing ork emotes than this forum allows.
M.
It wouldn't be a "new edition" each time. There might be special versions of the Core Book and a "Campaign booklet" in each warzone related set, but that doesn't make it a new edition.
I would not be surprised if other boxes come with oval, octagon and tesseract because for the new factions in the boxes the original values were not enough for a balanced team setup
kodos wrote: I would not be surprised if other boxes come with oval, octagon and tesseract because for the new factions in the boxes the original values were not enough for a balanced team setup
Listen, if GW can make an actual tesseract in plastic without destroying the mould (or reality) every time, I will cheerfully acknowledge them as the true masters of injection moulding and proclaim the new system both perfect and necessary.
I actually think WarCom was right in advertising it with shapes, even though the playtesters have been using colours.
The measuring gauge provided is monochrome, and they're even providing a metal measuring gauge which couldn't even be painted.
I think this approach for bespoke-killteams only is a bit lame.
Sure it's awesome if you're interested in one of the bespoke teams they provide.
But what if you're interested in something else? You're stuck with the utterly bland and flavourless compendium.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what the other Kill Teams look like, and some more terrain sets. This is very much like Warcry. A bunch of bespoke warbands made for Warcry, but also rules to use existing kits. With the Death Korps and Kommandos, I'm looking forward to what comes next.
kirotheavenger wrote: I actually think WarCom was right in advertising it with shapes, even though the playtesters have been using colours.
The measuring gauge provided is monochrome, and they're even providing a metal measuring gauge which couldn't even be painted.
I think this approach for bespoke-killteams only is a bit lame.
Sure it's awesome if you're interested in one of the bespoke teams they provide.
But what if you're interested in something else? You're stuck with the utterly bland and flavourless compendium.
In the long term I expect it'll work itself out when the majority of armies have their bespoke teams. The question is if people remain interested long enough to stick with the game for 'their' (and for most people, that means Space Marine) team to come out.
GW wants me to pay close to 200 pounds (GW special price for far away places (tm)) for a box of stuff that I will finish painting just in time for the next edition of KT?
I'm going to need more laughing ork emotes than this forum allows.
M.
It wouldn't be a "new edition" each time. There might be special versions of the Core Book and a "Campaign booklet" in each warzone related set, but that doesn't make it a new edition.
That’s essentially the model they have used for NuNecromunda.
That's part of the issue though, if every faction get's one team - what if that's not the team you like?
Say for Guard, but I want to play Scions.
I think the bespoke teams can work very well in a vaccuum. But Killteam isn't a vaccuum, the fact that it's a slice of 40k is a massive part of its appeal.
kirotheavenger wrote: I actually think WarCom was right in advertising it with shapes, even though the playtesters have been using colours.
The measuring gauge provided is monochrome, and they're even providing a metal measuring gauge which couldn't even be painted.
I think this approach for bespoke-killteams only is a bit lame.
Sure it's awesome if you're interested in one of the bespoke teams they provide.
But what if you're interested in something else? You're stuck with the utterly bland and flavourless compendium.
In the long term I expect it'll work itself out when the majority of armies have their bespoke teams. The question is if people remain interested long enough to stick with the game for 'their' (and for most people, that means Space Marine) team to come out.
Bold of you to imply that Space Marines will get only one team.
I hope this takes a page out of Blackstone Fortress and Warcry, where we can see some more unusual stuff, which doesn't fit neatly into a codex roster, but works well in small scale.
kirotheavenger wrote: I actually think WarCom was right in advertising it with shapes, even though the playtesters have been using colours.
The measuring gauge provided is monochrome, and they're even providing a metal measuring gauge which couldn't even be painted.
I think this approach for bespoke-killteams only is a bit lame.
Sure it's awesome if you're interested in one of the bespoke teams they provide.
But what if you're interested in something else? You're stuck with the utterly bland and flavourless compendium.
In the long term I expect it'll work itself out when the majority of armies have their bespoke teams. The question is if people remain interested long enough to stick with the game for 'their' (and for most people, that means Space Marine) team to come out.
Bold of you to imply that Space Marines will get only one team.
Nah I'd be shocked if they didn't. Scouts, a new Vanguard unit, then Chapter-specific stuff like a new Grey Knight unit (upscaled of course).
kirotheavenger wrote: That's part of the issue though, if every faction get's one team - what if that's not the team you like?
Say for Guard, but I want to play Scions.
I think the bespoke teams can work very well in a vaccuum. But Killteam isn't a vaccuum, the fact that it's a slice of 40k is a massive part of its appeal.
kirotheavenger wrote: That's part of the issue though, if every faction get's one team - what if that's not the team you like?
Say for Guard, but I want to play Scions.
I think the bespoke teams can work very well in a vaccuum. But Killteam isn't a vaccuum, the fact that it's a slice of 40k is a massive part of its appeal.
For you there will be the KT compendium.
Exactly, which is bland and boring in comparison to these awesome bespoke teams.
Ok, screw DKK. GW, I want a Kroot kill team. This is like the perfect thing for them.
Sort of hope they don't fill one of the slots with Black Templar, just to squeeze that in to their release. Deathwatch (primaris, probably?) is something I'd be more willing to forgive.
jaredb wrote: I'm really looking forward to seeing what the other Kill Teams look like, and some more terrain sets. This is very much like Warcry. A bunch of bespoke warbands made for Warcry, but also rules to use existing kits. With the Death Korps and Kommandos, I'm looking forward to what comes next.
I kinda lost interest in the game, but I'm still really exited to see the new models. They presumably will be usable in 40K.
1. Something you already know about.
2. New products for this product line, but we can't say what they are.
3. New products for this product line, but we can't say what they are.
4. And so on...
5. ... and so on...
6. ... and so on...
Such reveals. Much previews. Wow!
This is the problem with Kill Team; its basically carrot-dangling where support of its players are concerned. It's come to that point where that old saying comes to mind; "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me...".
Now that we know a Warzone is coming nearly every quarter, will potential players not bother buying the Compendium and just wait and see if something interesting comes up for their factions?
I'm also wondering will the rulebook be bundled into the later warzones. I'm guessing when Octarius is replaced, the Ork Kommandos and Veteran Guard are released with their KT data card gubbins?
Obviously, they realized the problem with the previous version of Kill Team is that it wasn't a way to sell new miniatures. The new version exists solely as a way to sell new miniature kits. They don't want you to play with your existing 40k miniatures, so of course those will be worse in the game.
Ancient Otter wrote: Now that we know a Warzone is coming nearly every quarter, will potential players not bother buying the Compendium and just wait and see if something interesting comes up for their factions?
I'm also wondering will the rulebook be bundled into the later warzones. I'm guessing when Octarius is replaced, the Ork Kommandos and Veteran Guard are released with their KT data card gubbins?
Yes, it seems like they've separated the rules from factions for this purpose.
Not going to lie, if they plan to release two newly designed troop boxes along with the same amount of imho amazing terrain, I'm quite excited for that.
Got no interest in KT at all, but the content makes good use for 40k.
a_typical_hero wrote: Not going to lie, if they plan to release two newly designed troop boxes along with the same amount of imho amazing terrain, I'm quite excited for that.
Got no interest in KT at all, but the content makes good use for 40k.
This is a great chance for a lot more xenos terrain to appear.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Obviously, they realized the problem with the previous version of Kill Team is that it wasn't a way to sell new miniatures. The new version exists solely as a way to sell new miniature kits. They don't want you to play with your existing 40k miniatures, so of course those will be worse in the game.
This is a pretty bold claim, given that the compendium reviews aren't out until the 14th.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GaroRobe wrote: Ok, screw DKK. GW, I want a Kroot kill team. This is like the perfect thing for them.
You've looked at the Kill Team website, right?
"Cadre Mercenaries". It's all Kroot.
Sort of hope they don't fill one of the slots with Black Templar, just to squeeze that in to their release. Deathwatch (primaris, probably?) is something I'd be more willing to forgive.
I'm not expecting Marines in any of the warzone sets, if they are going to happen. We know Black Templar are getting a launch box at some point so it's doubtful they will be tied into Kill Team.
Well we've seen Imperial Guard list construction, I think its very likely that all the other factions in the compendium follow the same theme, especially since all the datasheets we've seen are consistent with that.
No specialists, just grunts and a gunner or two with the special weapons.
MajorWesJanson wrote: This is a great chance for a lot more xenos terrain to appear.
It absolutely is.
But I fear that our Warzones will be "Fight over this Deathworld terrain that we re-release sporadically!" and "Fight over BattleZone Vertigus because that's currently in production!" and maybe "Fight over these old battlement pieces we already sell!" and, if we're lucky, "Fight over these Ryza pattern ruins that we once took completely out of production without warning!".
Don't get me wrong. I want my Tyranid-themed terrain. I want more Eldar ruins. I really want a set of nice clean Tau buildings. I just see the above happening way before any of these, especially if their pace is one box per quarter.
The releases seem similar to the Funko skirmish game releases, where you get a new board and scenarios with the models. The advantage of Funko is better rules and prepainted everything. The advantage of GW is
Exodites, jungle scenery vs snakebites, works vs catachans, dark eldar/night lords/chaos marines cityfight vs guard etc. Be great to see some. specific legions, guard regiments, New xenos races, lesser known stuff you wouldn't normally see in 40k, like the Rogue Traders
kirotheavenger wrote: Well we've seen Imperial Guard list construction, I think its very likely that all the other factions in the compendium follow the same theme, especially since all the datasheets we've seen are consistent with that.
No specialists, just grunts and a gunner or two with the special weapons.
For those who are curious, Kiro here is referring to strictly the Guardsman Fireteam. IG can take two Fireteams, chosen from Scions(who we haven't seen anything for yet that I've been aware of). The Compendium lists apparently have a thing called "Archetypes" tied to the Fireteams. Seeing as how specialists are a different thing(and literally only in the Hardened Veterans and Kommando kill teams right now) to specialisms are tied to profiles and are on the datacards themselves, it's a bit misleading to say there's no "specialists".
Spoiler:
See this Skitarii Ranger(Gunner)?
See the four icons down in the lower right? Those are specialisms. From Left to Right is: Combat(crossed knives), Staunch(Shield), Marksman(crosshairs), and Scout(waypoint marker).
Those are a bit more important, IMO, than the specialists which so far have just seemed to be "premade specialisms".
I'm digging the concept here, though if I'm looking at probably buying three $200 boxes (assuming they all have neat-o terrain and sweet minis on par with this box) every 3 months this gak might get expensive real fast - even with the 25% former employee discount I have at my local. I'm hoping they use this as a platform to push more non-Imperial terrain though, people have been asking for xenos terrain for a long time and this seems a good format to release it in....
...though if they do want to repackage old terrain, i'll gladly take a few firestorm redoubts and aquila strongpoints, thank you very much.
Probably neither. James M Hewitt has explained that Shadow War Armageddon was released separately by the Publications team while he was working on Necromunda with the Specialist team. He said there was no consultation or cross-communication between himself and the Shadow War team, but that they were fully aware that he was working on Necromunda at the time. He says he doesn't know *why* they would release Shadow War Armageddon, but he has inferred that it was probably the result of parochialism, hurt feelings, or inter-departmental politics as they rushed to release Shadow War out basically using the original Necromunda ruleset with few (if any) real modifications while he was working on the ground-up rewrite of the Necromunda rules. IIRC I think James alluded to the idea that the manager of the publications team was someone who may have worked on Necromunda in the past or something to that effect and felt like they should have been the one to revive Necromunda as a game, and when they were passed up they leveraged their position (and probably personal relationships with higher managers, etc.) to produce Shadow War out of spite in an effort to undercut Necromunda. I cant find the longer interview/q&a/explanation he gave on it, but this is one of the times he mentioned it on twitter: https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1417956999661342731?s=20
Its a shame they didn't put that hurt energy into a new range of Eldar models!
But at least both games did see the light of day( B5 vs DS9 situation? ) and I've only heard positive things about Shadow War. Flicking through the manual I was quite surprised to see Harlequins had extra units, which I believe were Mimes and Virtuosos? Rookie and veteran Troupe Players, apparently. So I guess the customer won in the end with two games to choose from and some interesting units too.
Indeed, I was disappointed that Sisters didn't get Novitates or whatever they are called in their new codex. There were some cool concepts in SWA.
So my broad statement was correct in those broad strokes, thanks for clarifying that.
Those aren't specialisms at the bottom in the sense that I meant.
Those are battle honours, almost exactly like Crusade 40k. They're acquired in the same way and they have essentially the same effect.
By specialists I meant like Krieg and Kommandos have, and I think everyone knew that.
Aww yeahh! So GW is committed on releasing new stuff for KT2 every quarter. That's awesome! I think I'll pretty much stop investing into 40K proper (aside from the new HH box which is a must have! hehehe) and buy what I fancy from these instead.
I don't mind the compendium stuff being less personalized as the "proper spec op teams". This means I will eventually have both, which can be used to remake the famous 40K rulebook KillTeam where your specialists infiltrated a base with "drone soldiers", and eventually battled the "Boss" at the end. So the first few missions in the campaign are against Compendium fire teams, and the campaign climaxes into fighting against another spec ops kill team. What's not to like?
Terrain in those Killzone boxes will probably just be repackages from the existing terrain lineup though, at least for the first few 'zones..
kirotheavenger wrote: So my broad statement was correct in those broad strokes, thanks for clarifying that.
If by "correct", you mean "extremely misleading"? Certainly!
That article had quite a bit more to it when discussing the Guard roster. Notably the simple fact that Scions are a whole other potential fireteam option.
Those aren't specialisms at the bottom in the sense that I meant.
Those are battle honours, almost exactly like Crusade 40k. They're acquired in the same way and they have essentially the same effect.
By specialists I meant like Krieg and Kommandos have, and I think everyone knew that.
The things at the bottom of a datacard are literally called "specialisms". While they might act like battle honours, it's what most people would have noted as "specialists" from the previous iteration of Kill Team.
Sort of hope they don't fill one of the slots with Black Templar, just to squeeze that in to their release. Deathwatch (primaris, probably?) is something I'd be more willing to forgive.
I'm not expecting Marines in any of the warzone sets, if they are going to happen. We know Black Templar are getting a launch box at some point so it's doubtful they will be tied into Kill Team.
I mean, I fully expect to see new Scout sculpts come out with BT (maybe to align with any changes in scale to make them square up with Primaris?), so it wouldn't shock me at all if it was a KT-compatible box with a bunch of bits and a corresponding Fire Team type in the Compendium, even if it's not a custom 10th company KT set.
Kanluwen wrote: The things at the bottom are literally called "specialisms". While they might act like battle honours, it's what most people would have noted as "specialists" from the previous iteration of Kill Team.
But it doesn't exactly work like that unfortunately. Those "specialisms" in KT2 are only available in Narrative Play, they cannot be used in Matched Play.
I reckon I'll go "Open Play" in this edition as well. This time, one of the twists will be that every team can have an X number (max of 1 sounds the most appealing ATM) of specialists even in Matched Play missions.
As long as KT keeps producing nice new kits like die Kriegers and Orc Kommandos, I couldn't care less about the quality of the rules. If they can manage to release two factions every three months, consider me excited.
Terrain in those Killzone boxes will probably just be repackages from the existing terrain lineup though, at least for the first few 'zones..
Why would you think that? This first box isn't (sure the barricades/junk piles are repackagings, but the buildings themselves and some of the scatter terrain are entirely new).
Terrain in those Killzone boxes will probably just be repackages from the existing terrain lineup though, at least for the first few 'zones..
Why would you think that? This first box isn't (sure the barricades/junk piles are repackagings, but the buildings themselves and some of the scatter terrain are entirely new).
Fingers crossed so much for plastic Tyranid spore chimneys
So only $135 to play rather than $153 if you use the book resource versus cards.
