He can roll out with a pack of Flesh hounds or Mauler fiends like a real boss. Transports would also give him LOS so back him with some Rhinos packed with zerkers.
Seems like he's going to fit best with units of (non-exalted) eightbound, which have CORE. That lets them move 11" to easily keep up with him and reliably pull off first turn charges.
Berzerkers in dreadclaws can do that too thanks to their 3D6 charge ability. Lots of early pressure from WE.
This box epitomises the massed frontal assaults the World Eaters love so much, packing in a whopping 20 Khorne Berserkers alongside 10 Jakhals – the only mortal cultists who could possibly keep up with their betters’ kill count – all led by a World Eaters Lord on Juggernaut.
While Chaos Space Marines are limited to a single Chaos Lord per Detachment, the World Eaters aren’t subject to such petty jealousy. They can field as many beast-bound Lords as their HQ slots allow, meaning you can muster the complete contents of two Combat Patrols – all without needing to spend any Command points on the new Heroic Support Stratagem.
Combat Patrol: World Eaters will be coming to pre-orders in just a few weeks...
GaroRobe wrote: Eh. It’s all new models. Surprised they didn’t cram in kharn or the master of executions as the hq option
Yeah sure, but i come from a time where the CSM starter box had:
Lord in terminator armor, 5 possessed, 8 khorneberzerkers, 15 CSM and a rhino.
This by comparison is just "boring" as an army. but that is also an issue with the WE codex being probably the biggest new flanderisation of a faction there ever was, even more so than Wolf wolf wolf marines.
Well, it's perfect for me starting a Khorne army, so boring in a berzerker frothing rage induced trance sort of way...okay.
TBF, the box is "good" insofar as it is indeed the core of the faction.
The problem is more that WE have been probably the most uninspired cultlegion to get rules there is right now. hence the box beeing good and core to the faction automatically is boring.
GaroRobe wrote: Eh. It’s all new models. Surprised they didn’t cram in kharn or the master of executions as the hq option
Yeah sure, but i come from a time where the CSM starter box had:
Lord in terminator armor, 5 possessed, 8 khorneberzerkers, 15 CSM and a rhino.
This by comparison is just "boring" as an army. but that is also an issue with the WE codex being probably the biggest new flanderisation of a faction there ever was, even more so than Wolf wolf wolf marines.
Yeah. Gutted. Reduced to berserkers, berserkier berserkers, berserkier berserkers +1 and berserk cultists. Woop. Really don't know if I'll bother with my WE any more.
GaroRobe wrote: Eh. It’s all new models. Surprised they didn’t cram in kharn or the master of executions as the hq option
Yeah sure, but i come from a time where the CSM starter box had:
Lord in terminator armor, 5 possessed, 8 khorneberzerkers, 15 CSM and a rhino.
This by comparison is just "boring" as an army. but that is also an issue with the WE codex being probably the biggest new flanderisation of a faction there ever was, even more so than Wolf wolf wolf marines.
Yeah. Gutted. Reduced to berserkers, berserkier berserkers, berserkier berserkers +1 and berserk cultists. Woop. Really don't know if I'll bother with my WE any more.
Could be worse, you could be hearing fetch jokes...or find your army in the "legends" rules list...
It's just a damn shame that we got more melee cultists, when we could've gotten blood pact and blooded type units in it instead. You know actually disciplined forces, common for khorne before GW went hurr durr skulls. Especially as a counterpoint to the berzerkier astartes? Havocs with AC and plasma cannons. As was already the case in the past. Regular bolter marines (with full equipment). Working tanks.
There would've been many ways this would've been handled better than what it is right now, but instead we get this... "codex".... alas it seems we are stuck with this thing.
GaroRobe wrote: Eh. It’s all new models. Surprised they didn’t cram in kharn or the master of executions as the hq option
Yeah sure, but i come from a time where the CSM starter box had:
Lord in terminator armor, 5 possessed, 8 khorneberzerkers, 15 CSM and a rhino.
This by comparison is just "boring" as an army. but that is also an issue with the WE codex being probably the biggest new flanderisation of a faction there ever was, even more so than Wolf wolf wolf marines.
Yeah. Gutted. Reduced to berserkers, berserkier berserkers, berserkier berserkers +1 and berserk cultists. Woop. Really don't know if I'll bother with my WE any more.
Could be worse, you could be hearing fetch jokes...or in the "legends" rules list...
It's just a damn shame that we got more melee cultists, when we could've gotten blood pact and blooded type units in it instead. You know actually disciplined forces, common for khorne before GW went hurr durr skulls. Especially as a counterpoint to the berzerkier astartes?
Havocs with AC and plasma cannons. As was already the case in the past.
Regular bolter marines (with full equipment).
Working tanks.
There would've been many ways this would've been handled better than what it is right now, but instead we get this... "codex".... alas it seems we are stuck with this thing.
Still better than AOS Khorne Gorehulk and Bloodsecretors and wrathmongers.
Interesting part to me and part of the reason it seems so boring is that it conforms to the requirements of the new Detachment vs the other boxes conforming to the Patrol Detachment.
Only the Wolves one has a non-generic unit and that's only because the Reivers are supposed to be built as Hounds of Morkai.
As a basis for building a Deathwatch army at the CP level, the box is fine. Deathwatch Vets are 9 power for a base unit whereas an Intercessor Squad is only 5 and a Fortis Kill Team only 6.
Not Online!!! wrote: you mean like the new CSM box? Which is only daemonic / possessed things and 5 terminators?
I wish that box would've been built more like this tbf.
No more the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard boxes. The Chapter-specific Marine ones are just random things chucked together with some upgrade kits, and the Chaos ones are flat-out illegal lists in some combinations.
The new CSM box is just a launch box but late.
I think its a fantastic combat patrol. It comes with a good mix of your core units + a spammable HQ, its a box that you can buy 2-3 copies of and get value from and a solid core to your army.
Aside from the models in this set, the only other new kits I can recall being associated with the World Eaters release are Angron and the Eightbound. Theres basically nothing else they could have put in the set aside from generic CSM stuff like a Helbrute and Rhino, but meh - if I want those supporting units which are not inherently world eaters kits themselves, I'll buy them separately.
Platuan4th wrote: Except previous Patrol boxes because it's NOT "basically Unbound". It's basically an excuse to get rid of most of the other Detachment types for 10th.
I'm actually going to change what I said because technically it won't be true when the Guard CP box comes out. Instead, I'll just say that you're looking for a conspiracy when there isn't one chief.
The CP boxes are designed to be 25 Power lists out of the box so people can start playing 40k with just the contents of a single bundle. Now I don't know the exact power levels of each of those units but I'm betting it adds up to 25. There is your reason for why the box contains what it does.
This is an excellent combat patrol, probably among the best if not the best available. It's great value wise and the core of an army, without punishing you for doubling up.
Going to be very easy to start 2 of these, and then fill out with 8bound.
Sasori wrote: This is an excellent combat patrol, probably among the best if not the best available. It's great value wise and the core of an army, without punishing you for doubling up.
Going to be very easy to start 2 of these, and then fill out with 8bound.
Sasori wrote: This is an excellent combat patrol, probably among the best if not the best available. It's great value wise and the core of an army, without punishing you for doubling up.
Going to be very easy to start 2 of these, and then fill out with 8bound.
This is what I see as well.
Thirded.
It's an efficient way to get the Jugger Lord & Invocatus.
Why yes this will do nicely. Good to see GW has not repeated the past mistake they did with TS and have 20 Cult-infantry and 10 Marines as this box is 20 BEZERKERS and 10 Jackhals. Which will fit comfortably into the two Chaos Rhinos I have. Along with the Jugger Lord/Lord-Invocatus this appears to be a very good actual starter set for the army. Especially for an army that likes to charge things.
The Boarding Action Rules for WE have not been released yet but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was an exception for the Jugger Lord to be included despite being Calvary.
I’ve seen comments that this is not an “exciting” box compared to others but that actually may be better - as this box gives you the meat and potatoes of a WE force and does not give you the hang up of having a unit that may be less than useful…like a Heldrake…or a special character you only need one of. And you certainly wouldn’t be punished for doubling up
If only they’d given World Eaters Jugger Cavalry as a base unit.
I do think this is a decent set, especially as you seem to be able to double up nicely, and whilst far from familiar with the rules let alone WE, there’s nothing looking useless.
This is probably aided by the fact that the WE army rules range is so anemic, but even if it wasn't, this is a really solid set of models. You get a lot of bang for your buck, everything is new sculpts, and it isn't a "one and done" type set. Hopefully this is the standard set for new Combat Patrols.
Grimskul wrote: This is probably aided by the fact that the WE army rules range is so anemic, but even if it wasn't, this is a really solid set of models. You get a lot of bang for your buck, everything is new sculpts, and it isn't a "one and done" type set. Hopefully this is the standard set for new Combat Patrols.
I was thinking more or less the same thing. Blessing in disguise I guess from such a tiny selection of kits.
Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
panzerfront14 wrote: Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
I’m really disappointed with the overall WE release but that is a really, really solid box that is annoyingly tempting. Just need to remember that that basically is the entire army, Angron aside, and I should be able to resist.
morganfreeman wrote: This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
So? It was the same in the by some people highly praised 3.5 Codex. Pure WE armies were never subtle.
Could they have done more? Sure. Bikes for example. But well, the kit is over 25 years old - I suppose when they finally release a new one, it will have some legion options.
morganfreeman wrote: This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
So? It was the same in the by some people highly praised 3.5 Codex. Pure WE armies were never subtle.
Could they have done more? Sure. Bikes for example. But well, the kit is over 25 years old - I suppose when they finally release a new one, it will have some legion options.
They could have done more variety without being much more subtle - Terminators are a variation on the CC theme, you could have had some sort of close-range specialist havocs, maybe with a shrapnel/grenade theme, you could have had Teeth of Khorne for longer range shooting, jump packs for Speed and so on. Khorne is not very subtle, but he also is not completely 1-dimensional.
I guess cult bikers will be one of the major thing in future incarnations, it's a logical conclusion to use the bigger 'canvas' bikes provide to do more differentiation than you reasonably could with basic infantry. In before '8-speed Slaycicle' or 'Snarlchain Violencipede'
If only they'd put any effort at all into this book.
True that.
Classic units missing? Jugger Cavalry, Blood Slaughterer Daemon Engine. Both have existed in 40K scale before.
Modern-ish missing unit? Cult Terminators - with the Red Butchers like….right over there man!
For clarity, I don’t dislike what we’ve seen so far. It just needs….more. But then the I guess the same for Tzeentch, who could at least do with a Daemon Engine. Maybe a pair of scaled down Silver Towers, with the classic warding thing between them reducing S, AP and D by 1 for every shot traced through it, and some useful if not particularly deadly (because we can’t have everything!) ranged weapon. Hell, let the Warding provide a native DtW for any offensive psychic power cast across it.
If only they'd put any effort at all into this book.
True that.
Classic units missing? Jugger Cavalry, Blood Slaughterer Daemon Engine. Both have existed in 40K scale before.
Modern-ish missing unit? Cult Terminators - with the Red Butchers like….right over there man!
For clarity, I don’t dislike what we’ve seen so far. It just needs….more. But then the I guess the same for Tzeentch, who could at least do with a Daemon Engine. Maybe a pair of scaled down Silver Towers, with the classic warding thing between them reducing S, AP and D by 1 for every shot traced through it, and some useful if not particularly deadly (because we can’t have everything!) ranged weapon. Hell, let the Warding provide a native DtW for any offensive psychic power cast across it.
The WE release really feels half-assed, i guess the only hope for a 'full' codex that remains is that this is something like the mechanicus/skitarii situation and there's another substantial release in 10th edition down the line. It feels so unfinished that that's not too outlandish a conjecture anyway.
panzerfront14 wrote: Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
I get it, they are not going to put anything else new into this release but all I'm saying is that it wouldn't be hard to implement such units into the army. The central theme of "Horde of Berzerkers" is cool. But they will need buddies to get into combat reliably, I hold the opinion that if you want a melee centric army, give the tools in the lore that would reduce losses enroute to melee. I like those Close Range Havocs that other guy mentioned. A Close Range squad, perhaps with some sort of Grenade Launcher, perhaps that chain gun and perhaps even Plasma Cannons (I loved Fire Fist in the Black Legion Novels). Though the Grenade Launcher idea makes me think of an enlarged heavy bolter with a huge belt feed.
panzerfront14 wrote: Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
I get it, they are not going to put anything else new into this release but all I'm saying is that it wouldn't be hard to implement such units into the army. The central theme of "Horde of Berzerkers" is cool. But they will need buddies to get into combat reliably, I hold the opinion that if you want a melee centric army, give the tools in the lore that would reduce losses enroute to melee. I like those Close Range Havocs that other guy mentioned. A Close Range squad, perhaps with some sort of Grenade Launcher, perhaps that chain gun and perhaps even Plasma Cannons (I loved Fire Fist in the Black Legion Novels). Though the Grenade Launcher idea makes me think of an enlarged heavy bolter with a huge belt feed.
There's a demon sculpt from one of the not-Chaos alternative model makers that's basically a bloodletter that has an iron grenade launcher that's belt-feeding skulls and shoots flaming explodo-skulls, that would be right GW's alley
panzerfront14 wrote: Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
I get it, they are not going to put anything else new into this release but all I'm saying is that it wouldn't be hard to implement such units into the army. The central theme of "Horde of Berzerkers" is cool. But they will need buddies to get into combat reliably, I hold the opinion that if you want a melee centric army, give the tools in the lore that would reduce losses enroute to melee. I like those Close Range Havocs that other guy mentioned. A Close Range squad, perhaps with some sort of Grenade Launcher, perhaps that chain gun and perhaps even Plasma Cannons (I loved Fire Fist in the Black Legion Novels). Though the Grenade Launcher idea makes me think of an enlarged heavy bolter with a huge belt feed.
There's a demon sculpt from one of the not-Chaos alternative model makers that's basically a bloodletter that has an iron grenade launcher that's belt-feeding skulls and shoots flaming explodo-skulls, that would be right GW's alley
panzerfront14 wrote: Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
I get it, they are not going to put anything else new into this release but all I'm saying is that it wouldn't be hard to implement such units into the army. The central theme of "Horde of Berzerkers" is cool. But they will need buddies to get into combat reliably, I hold the opinion that if you want a melee centric army, give the tools in the lore that would reduce losses enroute to melee. I like those Close Range Havocs that other guy mentioned. A Close Range squad, perhaps with some sort of Grenade Launcher, perhaps that chain gun and perhaps even Plasma Cannons (I loved Fire Fist in the Black Legion Novels). Though the Grenade Launcher idea makes me think of an enlarged heavy bolter with a huge belt feed.
There's a demon sculpt from one of the not-Chaos alternative model makers that's basically a bloodletter that has an iron grenade launcher that's belt-feeding skulls and shoots flaming explodo-skulls, that would be right GW's alley
I like that, given where the face is on that gun, it's shooting the skulls out of its behind. This would still be better concept that those stupid bloodletter gun chariots (or whatever those were supposed to be).
I really like what has been done for World Eaters with this update. It seems strange to me that folks are criticizing it for a lack of variety. The are a themed army whose theme isn’t variety or tactical flexibility. It’s uncontrollable rage. These releases reflect that theme very well imo.
Dread Master wrote: I really like what has been done for World Eaters with this update. It seems strange to me that folks are criticizing it for a lack of variety. The are a themed army whose theme isn’t variety or tactical flexibility. It’s uncontrollable rage. These releases reflect that theme very well imo.
Its now a themed army with eliminated options. It wasn't, before.
Take stuff away from people, of course they criticize.
Dread Master wrote: I really like what has been done for World Eaters with this update. It seems strange to me that folks are criticizing it for a lack of variety. The are a themed army whose theme isn’t variety or tactical flexibility. It’s uncontrollable rage. These releases reflect that theme very well imo.
'All Berserkers all the time raaah raaah' is a dumb oversimplification that is nonsensical for a force that's supposedly able to do interstellar travel and to challenge non-insane enemies that use actual tactics, combined arms and so on. It borders on self-parody and cheapens the setting as a whole because it removes nuance and multi-faceted characters in favor of stupid memes.
Dread Master wrote: I really like what has been done for World Eaters with this update. It seems strange to me that folks are criticizing it for a lack of variety. The are a themed army whose theme isn’t variety or tactical flexibility. It’s uncontrollable rage. These releases reflect that theme very well imo.
Yeah, but there are still classic units missing.
Jugger Cavalry have been around since Rogue Trader. Red Butchers are a more recent addition via Heresy, but a very thematic addition I feel WE players/fans had every right to expect in this Codex.
There are no non-Super Heavy Khornate Daemon Engines, despite the Blood Slaughterer existing, let alone scaling down the classic 2nd Ed Epic ones (Brass Scorpion, Tower of Skulls, and so on and so forth). Given Khorne has the widest selection in that era, that’s a poor show in my opinion.
Compare to Death Guard, who have three Nurgle Daemon Engines, none anywhere near Super Heavy in scale, plus two types of Terminators.
I don’t think anyone is complaining about what the Codex does include. It’s what it doesn’t include that has left noses out of joint. Options are so scant, WE armies are near inevitably going to look and play very samey. In turn, they may prove boring for opponents, as again and again it’s gonna be The Same Old List, because the WE Codex lacks options.
Right now, under the White Dwarf additions, World Eaters have access to some units that are completely in character for the Legion and have no excuse to be absent:
Chaos Lord, inc Terminator variant
Exalted Champion
Traitor Guard
Chosen
Bikers
Raptors
Vindicator
They also have access to a number of units that are useful to the playstyle, and at least not out of character:
Dark Apostle
Warpsmith
Lord Discordant
Venomcrawler
Warp Talons
Obliterators
Havocs
These units are all *currently legal* for any World Eaters army and likely to make up a significant amount of existing players collections.
*All of these units are being removed* in the new Codex to reinforce that theme you are speaking of, because apparently Vindicators are now unfluffy for some reason.
This is a tremendous loss for existing players that is completely avoidable. There is no reason for any of these units to be removed save the paper to print the rules on. Why did the Fiends get in the door but not a Lord option? It's inconsistent nonsense and a gutting of existing armies.
They've even managed to miss the open goal of mirroring the Thousand Sons and adding the Slaughterbrute from AOS to the 'dex - that doesn't even need a new sculpt!
i was expecting another DG or TS box with a ton of poxwalkers tzaangors.
And yeah. I play Khorne in AoS and have played if in fantasy. Khorne armies are never subtle. I don't expect fancy magics or whatever.
But in AoS i have chaff, i have elite, I have cavalry, I have priests, I have characters.
What do WE have? Daemon engines, Blood Chaplains (Or something like that), bikers, cult terminators, would have add a ton more variety than uglier berzerkers and even more uglier berzerkers with demon feet without losing that WE are basically a meele army. Heck, even devastator marines with short range heavy weapons like blood boiling flamers, big repeater shootguns or whatever.
Dysartes wrote: They've even managed to miss the open goal of mirroring the Thousand Sons and adding the Slaughterbrute from AOS to the 'dex - that doesn't even need a new sculpt!
Rabbits paw of people being rightfully annoyed that Tsons just got AoS ports for new units maybe? Seems like the sort of thing that would happen.
Dysartes wrote: They've even managed to miss the open goal of mirroring the Thousand Sons and adding the Slaughterbrute from AOS to the 'dex - that doesn't even need a new sculpt!
Rabbits paw of people being rightfully annoyed that Tsons just got AoS ports for new units maybe? Seems like the sort of thing that would happen.
Being given ported AoS units definitely a cop out. No arguments.
That WE didn't even get the copouts, but were just given the finger, is a lovely analogy for the entire release.
That box is a bloody beauty though, no arguments here. Kind of ironic that the entirely anemic release resulted in them being forced to give a very solid boxed set to go with it, because there straight up wasn't anything else to go in it.
I don't think the porting of the extra Tzaangors or Mutalith would have been met with as much annoyance if it hadn't made the Codex like 50% Tzaangor. Sure the Thousand Sons are a very small Legion with little in the way of Astartes but having two non-HQ Astartes units is a bit silly.
I see several reasons one might be worried about the new release:
-Weird Rooster choice lacking Butchers (bet we will see them at a point as upgrade sprue from killteam) and Jugger Cav
-Blood Tithe has in AoS a sad history. It is a good and straightforward mechanic that GW managed to always butcher in the past.
GW showed quite often the tendency to overdesign some factions while they underdesign others. Chaos Marines are mostly on the side that comes short rulewise. I am afraid that WE will lack a solid way to interact within the psy and shooting phase, the blood tithe will see way too many limitations and ends up useless and that due to too many similar profiles in the book will lead to a single solved meta list within mere weeks. I bet with you that WE as masters of combat will lack a lot of nowadays important meele army mechanics: Fast/Save Delivery, Fight First/Last Interactions, some sort of Oberwatch protection and so on. I already see matchups vs Ynnari becoming a nightmare. Also beside Angron I see little ways to deal with Vehicles, Monsters or Knights when I look at the currently available leaks. I hope there will be more soon so we finally get a real understanding of what the faction will be capable of
It is a shame because WE are a cool concept. But currently 9th with its focus on objectives doesn’t seem to favour meele.
For reference, in AoS the Khorne roster is;
-Bloodreavers (Jakhals equivalent)
-Blood Warriors (Zerkers equivalent)
-Skullreapers (Eightbound equivalent)
-Wrathmongers (Heavy infantry with a support aura which deal MWs on dying in melee)
-Skullcrushers (Juggernaught cav unit)
-Khorgoraths (like really gakky dreads)
-Bloodletters (Khorne daemons are part of the army proper, not allies)
-Flesh Hounds
-Bloodcrushers
-Skull Cannons
-Bloodstoker (backline support hero)
-Skullgrinder (frontline support hero)
-Aspiring Deathbringer (lieutenant hero)
-Exalted Deathbringer (other lieutenant hero)
-Slaughterpriest (in effect a psyker equivalent, but doesn't do it through spells)
-Bloodsecrator (extremely powerful support hero)
-Lord of Khorne
-Lord of Khorne on Juggernaught
-Bloodmaster
-Skullmaster
-Blood Throne
-Bloodthirsters
-Skulltaker
-Skarbrand
-5 Named Mortal characters
Then the army has a special rule allowing 1 in 4 units to be an appropriately marked Slaves to Darkness unit, so the equivalent here would be the CSM roster.
If they were smart, then the "missing units" would be treated the same way the cult units are in CSM - use the entry from the other codex. Would solve the anaemic and one dimensional roster issues and prevent too much invalidation of armies collected under rules up to and including the current index.
You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.
I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.
I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.
Isn't that what current-time Red Butchers are? AFAIK they're locked in their deactivated Terminator armour between fights because they're so insane, right?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.
I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.
Isn't that what current-time Red Butchers are? AFAIK they're locked in their deactivated Terminator armour between fights because they're so insane, right?
Yeah, but they can collect Skulls with their axes. To deny a World Eater skulls, but not slaughter seems a very “them” punishment.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You know what would be interesting as a Khorne unit? A Cult Dreadnought, but incarceration is used as a punishment.
I’m thinking dual Power Scourge. Something that will, in-game, let it massacre infantry, but in-background, not be able to gather skulls. A punishment where the only redemption is the death of the occupant.
Isn't that what current-time Red Butchers are? AFAIK they're locked in their deactivated Terminator armour between fights because they're so insane, right?
Yeah, but they can collect Skulls with their axes. To deny a World Eater skulls, but not slaughter seems a very “them” punishment.
Mittens the naughty Dreadnought seems like an okay concept, but i don't think you need specific rules for it
panzerfront14 wrote: Now if only they would release a World Eater's Daemon Engine, or perhaps steal from some of the Loyalists and give them a unique Helbrute model. Could you imagine if they really leaned into the Possessed vehicle route for WE and we saw a possessed Land Raider or something equally impressive.
WE shouldn't just be a horde of mindless berzerkers, they should be primarily berzerkers but perhaps with a few saner almost Havoc style counterparts. Armored Berzerkers are awesome, the same guys with fellows laying down some serious suppressive fire to clear their approach will be more effective.
Yyeeaaahhhh, we're not going to see that. This WE release has basically confirmed that GW is all-in on the cartoonish 1-dimensional gimmicks.
WE are now "Oops, all zerkers" in the same way that SW are "Oops, all furries".
IIRC the rumor is that they weren't even giving World Eaters the Slaughterbrute, which is just mind-boggling when you remember that Thousand Sons get the MVB.
Dysartes wrote: They've even managed to miss the open goal of mirroring the Thousand Sons and adding the Slaughterbrute from AOS to the 'dex - that doesn't even need a new sculpt!
Rabbits paw of people being rightfully annoyed that Tsons just got AoS ports for new units maybe? Seems like the sort of thing that would happen.
Being given ported AoS units definitely a cop out. No arguments.
That WE didn't even get the copouts, but were just given the finger, is a lovely analogy for the entire release.
That box is a bloody beauty though, no arguments here. Kind of ironic that the entirely anemic release resulted in them being forced to give a very solid boxed set to go with it, because there straight up wasn't anything else to go in it.
Its not a copout at all, its dollar efficiency for customers. I already had MVBs for my Fantasy/AoS armies, suddenly I had a brand new unit that I could field with my TSons and I didn't even need to spend any money on it. Was hoping for the same with the Slaughterbrute.
Mind you, I'm still pissed/annoyed that the MVB became a unit for TSons and not for Tzeentch Daemons who could really have actually benefited from a large monster unit.
Mozzamanx wrote: Right now, under the White Dwarf additions, World Eaters have access to some units that are completely in character for the Legion and have no excuse to be absent:
Chaos Lord, inc Terminator variant
Exalted Champion
Traitor Guard
Chosen
Bikers
Raptors
Vindicator
They also have access to a number of units that are useful to the playstyle, and at least not out of character:
Dark Apostle
Warpsmith
Lord Discordant
Venomcrawler
Warp Talons
Obliterators
Havocs
These units are all *currently legal* for any World Eaters army and likely to make up a significant amount of existing players collections.
*All of these units are being removed* in the new Codex to reinforce that theme you are speaking of, because apparently Vindicators are now unfluffy for some reason.
This is a tremendous loss for existing players that is completely avoidable. There is no reason for any of these units to be removed save the paper to print the rules on. Why did the Fiends get in the door but not a Lord option? It's inconsistent nonsense and a gutting of existing armies.
This is literally the most depressing thing about the entire release.
It's the fact they gave WE players a WD index that freely allowed these units, despite fully know what units would and wouldn't be allowed and it's not like WE players are being completely unfluffy and taking ranged spam.... we're just being shafted of a bunch of units that fit the design and all.
And even what remains is getting some odd decisions to it.
Your cultists are now all melee cultists. - Uh, why?
Your Lords don't walk or wear Terminator anymore lol. They have to all ride juggernauts. What, you wanted to mount them in Rhinos and Land Raiders?
It's the fact that they also have a complete disconnect from things... like, of all the Chaos armies I'd expect to have a character bloat, I'd expect it to be WE where everyone is trying to prove themselves worthy.
But no - have your staple Daemon Prince, your Lord who is now always mounted and your Lord Executioner. Oh, and your handful of named characters.
No Dark Apostle style slaughterpriests to provide, I dunno, maybe some sort of anti-psyker protection and interaction?
No Lord Discordant style beastmasters.
No foot champions - Lords or Exalted Champions who just make sense mingling in the ranks.
This is supposed to be a force that functions in galaxy wide combat, travelling from system to system and all. But it reminds me of the horrendous 3.5 Blood Rage rule where we worked out you could never have the World Eaters fighting offworld as a sixth of them would arbitrarily jump out of the space hulk/strike cruiser/ship and start power running in space thinking they were faster than a vehicle. So bad that the local group agreed on a 5 point vehicle upgrade to control this dumb rule called Child Locks.
And the thing is? Blood Rage could be an answer to them not wanting us to have things like Havocs. Just give them a blood rage rule, 1/6 turns they go berserk and charge forward instead. Fair trade and the army functions in more than 1 phase of a 4 phase game.
Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.
We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.
We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit
A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.
Crispy78 wrote: Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.
We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.
We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit
A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.
Exactly. There's exactly zero reason for these to not just be Possessed using differing models.
Crispy78 wrote: Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.
We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.
We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit
A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.
Exactly. There's exactly zero reason for these to not just be Possessed using differing models.
And even more bizarrely, the eight-bound who overcome the demons and gain control of them... Are the ones that appear mutated and warped.
Crispy78 wrote: Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.
We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.
We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit
A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.
So there's a wee bit of explanation in the fluff; for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time. Exalted Eightbound are where these daemons and the CSM have fused together on the spiritual end into one being--making them much more similar to a conventional possession as a result.
Crispy78 wrote: Let's not forget the absolutely abysmal mismatching of lore and model of the Eightbound.
We know what a human possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Accursed Cultists kit.
We know what a space marine possessed by a Daemon looks like, we've got the Possessed kit
A marine possessed by eight daemons all at once should be a dreadful biomechanical horror, all spikes, tentacles and other gribbly bits, with just enough power armour showing to indicate where he came from. What we've got is basically a berserker who's maybe spent a bit more time in the gym, and looks like it will be completely indistinguishable from normal Berserkers at tabletop distance. It's rubbish.
So there's a wee bit of explanation in the fluff; for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time. Exalted Eightbound are where these daemons and the CSM have fused together on the spiritual end into one being--making them much more similar to a conventional possession as a result.
Sounds like they could've just kept Exalted Possessed as a thing if the power level isn't really higher than that.
fething hell, what a garbage release, and it ain't even out yet.
NinthMusketeer wrote: for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time.
NinthMusketeer wrote: for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time.
NinthMusketeer wrote: for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time.
Linking the scene in case there are some they don't actually understand the reference
Considering the Eightbound, i do not like the part about achieving demon Nirvana with multiple demons - back in the Heresy, that sort of symbiosis with even a single demon was considered very special and rare, to the extent that it was dubious if it was even possible or just a trick of the demon, and reserved for the Gal Vorbak, who needed to do a whole warp pilgrimage and divine revelation quest to attain it. That any random idiot with anger issues can do it if you stick him in a *groan* Eightcage cheapens older and well-established fluff.
Daemon 1 'Psst, hey, hey I can help you take MORE Skulls for our lord Khorne..choose me!'
Daemon 2 'Hey, I can also aid you in taking more skulls.....wait'
Daemon 3 'Don't listen to those two I will enable you to cleave a monstrous amount of Skulls'
Daemon 1 ' a HUGE amount..'
Daemon 3 'VAST VAST quantities of skulls!..
Daemon 4 through 8 'Yeah, Skulls mate, lots of....and power! you know you want power'
Daemon 1 'I CAN DO ALL THAT'
World Eater chooses one just to shut them the hell up. After all, they have the nails to listen to.
Mr. Burning wrote: Daemon 1 'Psst, hey, hey I can help you take MORE Skulls for our lord Khorne..choose me!'
Daemon 2 'Hey, I can also aid you in taking more skulls.....wait'
Daemon 3 'Don't listen to those two I will enable you to cleave a monstrous amount of Skulls'
Daemon 1 ' a HUGE amount..'
Daemon 3 'VAST VAST quantities of skulls!..
Daemon 4 through 8 'Yeah, Skulls mate, lots of....and power! you know you want power'
Daemon 1 'I CAN DO ALL THAT'
World Eater chooses one just to shut them the hell up. After all, they have the nails to listen to.
Maybe that's why it doesn't hinder them having 8 daemons, they're used to background noise.
How much you want to bet the Word Bearers are trying to kidnap these lads.
NinthMusketeer wrote: "Nirvana" wasn't the impression I got, more "win the FFA and eat the losers".
I mean....
Sometimes the spirit of an Eightbound World Eater can even emerge triumphant, becoming one with the eight neverborn sharing its physical form. These are the Exalted Eightbound, even more dangerous and daemonic than others of their kind.
That doesnt sound like he ate them, it sounds like he merged with them.
So that sounds like he merges, right? So must be super duper possessed, his body basically being a mix of daemon and Marine proper and not a mish mash, right? So it must look really daemonic, almost like a mini daemon prince, right?
- It's a Marine with slightly clawed feet and somehow even less 'mutations' on the armour than your normal CSM mini has.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So there's a wee bit of explanation in the fluff; for the Eightbound the CSM soul is in competition with the daemons, but the daemons are also in competition with each other. That is the key part; none of them can 'complete' the possession because there are 7 others trying to do the exact same thing and stop each other at the same time. Exalted Eightbound are where these daemons and the CSM have fused together on the spiritual end into one being--making them much more similar to a conventional possession as a result.
From the fluff video they did a couple of weeks ago, Eightbound candidates that don't withstand the possession process get dragged into the warp, turn into chaos spawn, or other fun outcomes.
Regular Eightbound are those that have conquered the eight daemons for control of their body again, and have more agency than regular CSM possessed who are prone to being dominated by the daemon.
Exalted Eightbound are something different from a regular possession, with multiple beings fusing into one.
It reminds me of the short story “A More Perfect Union” which features an Emperor’s Children lord who has an addiction to…devouring minor daemons. His soul described as a small galaxy of stars.
He later merged with a strong Slaaneshi daemon and they become something of a Possessed Chaos Lord.
Slaanesh seems to feature a lot of such relationships, Syl’Esske coming to mind of where a mortal and a daemon joined into a loving relationship before he became a DP and Slaanesh bonded them into a symbiotic being.
So that sounds like he merges, right? So must be super duper possessed, his body basically being a mix of daemon and Marine proper and not a mish mash, right? So it must look really daemonic, almost like a mini daemon prince, right?
- It's a Marine with slightly clawed feet and somehow even less 'mutations' on the armour than your normal CSM mini has.
"What."
The greatest travesty in this whole affair...
Whelp, let's hope they do better next time. See you in 20 years for the new Hatebound sculpt in plasteel !
In the meantime, when I'll pick up the WE dex (in one or two editions) I'll just run Khorny possessed as proxies.
There's some World Eaters info from the WH+ battle report video today which mostly confirms the existing leaks on stratagems.
Most of the new details confirm the blood tithe rules.
The points can be spent at the end of each battle round on abilities. Only 6 of the 8 tithe abilities from previous leaks were used in this battle report.
2BTP = Spiteful nullification. 5+++ against mortal wounds.
3BTP = Rage-fuelled invigoration. +1 to charges.
4BTP = Wrathful devotion. Armywide 6+++.
4BTP = Warp blades. +1AP to melee attacks.
5BTP = Martial Excellence. Exploding 6's to hit.
6BTP = Reborn in blood. If Angron is dead, he comes back into reserve on the following turn with 8 wounds.
Note: that Angron generates 2 or 3 BTP each time he dies, and can return as often as you have points for it. In this battle report he returned he died and returned multiple times.
xttz wrote: Note: that Angron generates 2 or 3 BTP each time he dies, and can return as often as you have points for it. In this battle report he returned he died and returned multiple times.
No resurrection limitation, huh? Thematically I find it dissatisfying that a Daemon Primarch can die so often in a five or six turn game that he could return "multiple times".
Eightbound can enter from strat reserves one turn earlier than normal, including turn 1.
The generic juggerlord HQ has the same +2" move aura as Invocatus.
The Berzerker Blood Surge ability allows them to move into engagement range with the closest enemy unit, and seems to allow multiple uses per turn. The full text is posted below with some stratagems.
xttz wrote: Note: that Angron generates 2 or 3 BTP each time he dies, and can return as often as you have points for it. In this battle report he returned he died and returned multiple times.
No resurrection limitation, huh? Thematically I find it dissatisfying that a Daemon Primarch can die so often in a five or six turn game that he could return "multiple times".
If you imagine ''dying'' on the table not as being actually banished, but as doing some classic demon stuff like being ripped apart by a titan and then just reknitting yourself it is tolerable. It's obviously a 'gamey' thing to keep his profile in the general vicinity of other things on the table and keep his cost low enough for normal games.
3rd edition:
It took the lifes of 90 Grey Knight Terminators to banish Angron and his escort of 13 Bloodthirsters for 1000 years and save Armageddon.
Today:
- Angron gets one-rounded twice and ressurects twice in one game.
Everything might be balanced and stuff, but this is just funny.
Tsagualsa wrote: If you imagine ''dying'' on the table not as being actually banished, but as doing some classic demon stuff like being ripped apart by a titan and then just reknitting yourself it is tolerable. It's obviously a 'gamey' thing to keep his profile in the general vicinity of other things on the table and keep his cost low enough for normal games.
The fluff text says "Should his immortal form suffer even catastrophic damage, Angron can reform it through sheer force of will".
a_typical_hero wrote: 3rd edition:
It took the lifes of 90 Grey Knight Terminators to banish Angron and his escort of 13 Bloodthirsters for 1000 years and save Armageddon.
Today:
- Angron gets one-rounded twice and ressurects twice in one game.
Everything might be balanced and stuff, but this is just funny.
Tsagualsa wrote: If you imagine ''dying'' on the table not as being actually banished, but as doing some classic demon stuff like being ripped apart by a titan and then just reknitting yourself it is tolerable. It's obviously a 'gamey' thing to keep his profile in the general vicinity of other things on the table and keep his cost low enough for normal games.
The fluff text says "Should his immortal form suffer even catastrophic damage, Angron can reform it through sheer force of will".
There are a few examples of him doing it during the heresy/siege iirc.
xttz wrote: Note: that Angron generates 2 or 3 BTP each time he dies, and can return as often as you have points for it. In this battle report he returned he died and returned multiple times.
No resurrection limitation, huh? Thematically I find it dissatisfying that a Daemon Primarch can die so often in a five or six turn game that he could return "multiple times".
I both agree and disagree.
Thematically it just feels…. Wrong for a demon primarch to die so fast in such small engagements. If a game of 40k is supposed to represent something like 2 minutes of “battle time”, it’s crazy to think of him being so squishy and easily killed.
On the other hand, it’s pretty awesome to Angron constantly ripping through the walls of reality like an extra red Koolaid Man. Where one weapon is already slicing open real space even before his body even hits the ground like ultra-violent Night Crawler from hell.
Thematically it just feels…. Wrong for a demon primarch to die so fast in such small engagements. If a game of 40k is supposed to represent something like 2 minutes of “battle time”, it’s crazy to think of him being so squishy and easily killed.
On the other hand, it’s pretty awesome to Angron constantly ripping through the walls of reality like an extra red Koolaid Man. Where one weapon is already slicing open real space even before his body even hits the ground like ultra-violent Night Crawler from hell.
Worth noting that in this case Angron leeroy'd alone into a full Grey Knight army on the opening turn, killed a dreadknight in combat, then died as their whole army blasted him. I'd argue that there shouldn't be any units in the game capable of first turn charges and also surviving the firepower of a nearly-intact opposing force.
It was also pretty obviously done on purpose to demonstrate the blood tithe mechanic and respawn ability.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm so happy for World Eaters players lost more than half of the CSM codex to get a 6+++ after they lost a bunch of their army to shooting.
What a fething joke. Is anyone even defending this anymore?
Tons of people are happy with it because they also think World Eaters are all about crazy berzerkers.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm so happy for World Eaters players lost more than half of the CSM codex to get a 6+++ after they lost a bunch of their army to shooting.
What a fething joke. Is anyone even defending this anymore?
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm so happy for World Eaters players lost more than half of the CSM codex to get a 6+++ after they lost a bunch of their army to shooting.
What a fething joke. Is anyone even defending this anymore?
The rough part is that WE are probably going to be fairly strong. Angron being a massive t1 threat that’s also quite tough, and revivable, means he’ll be ripping things apart most of the game. Combine that with his no-fall back aura and he’s going to fair better against enemies who survive his charge.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm so happy for World Eaters players lost more than half of the CSM codex to get a 6+++ after they lost a bunch of their army to shooting.
What a fething joke. Is anyone even defending this anymore?
I don't think anyone ever was. At best distracted by the new (and tbf pretty cool) shinies.
cuda1179 wrote: If I read right, the Blood Tithe Points go up when ANY unit dies. It doesn't say friend or foe, so both?
I would assume so, being both in theme and the same as it is in AoS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: So one of the core rules of the army includes parts that are specifically for a special character that someone may not have or even want to take?
Cool...
I think that criticism is a bit harsh, this is not just any special character. When a Daemon Primarch roles in with HIS faction I don't mind a few extra sentences carved out for him.
Also wouldn't mind a few sentences carved out to give WE access to CSM, but...
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think that criticism is a bit harsh, this is not just any special character. When a Daemon Primarch roles in with HIS faction I don't mind a few extra sentences carved out for him.
I don't like tying special characters to any aspects of a faction's core rules.
There are a lot of people who don't like to field special characters. If Ultramarines had a set of rules where one of them only related to my half brother, despite my love of that character I'd still be annoyed.
Sure, it's not as bad as the old days where to play Salamanders or Imperial Fists you had to bring He'stan or Lysander, but I'd rather army special rules be special rules for the army, not the army + an ultimate one just for this one guy who you may never take.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Also wouldn't mind a few sentences carved out to give WE access to CSM, but...
Or GW just not to a half-assed job in the first place.
I mean, I don't think Zerker Champs are even going to have access Power Fists in the new book. Have we seen a single new Zerker with a power fist?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think that criticism is a bit harsh, this is not just any special character. When a Daemon Primarch roles in with HIS faction I don't mind a few extra sentences carved out for him.
I don't like tying special characters to any aspects of a faction's core rules.
There are a lot of people who don't like to field special characters. If Ultramarines had a set of rules where one of them only related to my half brother, despite my love of that character I'd still be annoyed.
Sure, it's not as bad as the old days where to play Salamanders or Imperial Fists you had to bring He'stan or Lysander, but I'd rather army special rules be special rules for the army, not the army + an ultimate one just for this one guy who you may never take.
Hm, considering it from that perspective I can see your point. Not sure if I agree, but I no longer disagree.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Also wouldn't mind a few sentences carved out to give WE access to CSM, but...
Or GW just not to a half-assed job in the first place.
I mean, I don't think Zerker Champs are even going to have access Power Fists in the new book. Have we seen a single new Zerker with a power fist?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Hm, considering it from that perspective I can see your point. Not sure if I agree, but I no longer disagree.
One thing I hadn't considered: Perhaps that rule isn't part of the Blood Tithe rules and is, instead, a special rule on Angron's datasheet. That seems more appropriate to me, rather than a general army rule that you may never use.
Their differences even extend to the way they do battle, as not all World Eaters charge screaming into melee combat. The Bloodstalkers are known for their patience and gunnery, reasoning that a warrior who lives longer claims more skulls for Khorne.
But you can't make these with this codex! Why even have the lore snippets if the rules can't reflect them?
Their differences even extend to the way they do battle, as not all World Eaters charge screaming into melee combat. The Bloodstalkers are known for their patience and gunnery, reasoning that a warrior who lives longer claims more skulls for Khorne.
But you can't make these with this codex! Why even have the lore snippets if the rules can't reflect them?
Yeah, that article read badly. It's all so over the top and unhinged, and not in a funny, over-the-top way, more like... sad. Al Bundy still remembering his one good game of college Football sad. I mean gak like this:
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Yeah, we get it. Eight. Haha. Very funny. Eight. Khorne has a sacred number, which is Eight. Eight Eightbound in the Eightcage.
If you’re still valiant enough to square up against the Daemon Primarch despite all that, you’ll have Spinegrinder and Samni’arius to contend with.
The former is a titanic chain-axe, far beyond most mortal craft. It’s also known as Persiax’s Folly – named for the traitor Forge World that laboured for decades to construct it, only to become the axe’s first victims when Angron scorned their supplication. The latter is a daemon blade of prodigious size containing the essence of a powerful Slaaneshi daemon, whose gladiatorial posturing offended the Primarch enough for him to administer the beating of a lifetime using nothing more than an unworked iron bar – forging the blade in the process.
Spinegrinder is okay, but Samni'arius sounds like some novice DM's first flaccid try at inventing a thing. Complete with unnecessary apostrophes. And sure, his blade is so EXTREME! that a whole Forgeworld labored for decades. To make one single chainaxe. Sure. And the other one is EVEN MORE! EXTREME! He literally forged it on the forehead of some dude we never heard of before. Because that's how EXTREME! Eightgron is. I have no brain but i must eight. Urgh.
Spinegrinder is okay, but Samni'arius sounds like some novice DM's first flaccid try at inventing a thing. Complete with unnecessary apostrophes.
I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you're not familiar with the 30+ years of GW Daemonic naming history.
Nah, the demon stuff alone is fine, it's just that the overall package rises to heights of idiocy that were deemed impossible before. Also, Angron should absolutely not be trusted with expensive weapons, he has lost about a wardrobe's worth of them at this point Gorefather, Gorechild, the Black Blade... i'm sure i'm missing some - maybe they were eight in total, missed opportunity right there
One dreads to think about what they'll do to Fulgrim once it's his turn.
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Yeah, we get it. Eight. Haha. Very funny. Eight. Khorne has a sacred number, which is Eight. Eight Eightbound in the Eightcage.
You're not going to point out that 8 weeks and 8 days later is actually 9 weeks and 1 day?
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Yeah, we get it. Eight. Haha. Very funny. Eight. Khorne has a sacred number, which is Eight. Eight Eightbound in the Eightcage.
You're not going to point out that 8 weeks and 8 days later is actually 9 weeks and 1 day?
Lol, true. But then, does the Imperium not operate on some weird decimal system anyway? Does Angron go by Warp Days, ship days, Terran Days, Nucerian Daylight Savings time? It's of course just some silly joking, but it's just so... dumb. Everything about this is dumb. And yes, this includes ranting about boneheaded filler content on the sell-me-stuff-website, but sometimes you need to vent
a_typical_hero wrote: 3rd edition:
It took the lifes of 90 Grey Knight Terminators to banish Angron and his escort of 13 Bloodthirsters for 1000 years and save Armageddon.
Today:
- Angron gets one-rounded twice and ressurects twice in one game.
Everything might be balanced and stuff, but this is just funny.
It's almost a meta commentary on how the Primarchs have gone from mythical figures that lurked in the background of the lore to being front and centre of the 40k lore but thematically lessened as a result. The HH book series has turned 40k towards an interesting direction that no one would have guessed in 2006.
Just read the page.....wow....I keep thinking GW hit rock bottom, but nope...ere we go, there is lower. And I thought Cawl/primaris was bad. This a whole other level.
Spinegrinder is okay, but Samni'arius sounds like some novice DM's first flaccid try at inventing a thing. Complete with unnecessary apostrophes.
I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you're not familiar with the 30+ years of GW Daemonic naming history.
I do semi wonder if they made them a pair of weapons with 2 different profiles instead of giving one profile to each weapon just so players don't have to say the awful names...
Their differences even extend to the way they do battle, as not all World Eaters charge screaming into melee combat. The Bloodstalkers are known for their patience and gunnery, reasoning that a warrior who lives longer claims more skulls for Khorne.
But you can't make these with this codex! Why even have the lore snippets if the rules can't reflect them?
Sounds like Havocs to me, so just use your World Eater Havocs that will totally be legal when the new codex drops.
a_typical_hero wrote: 3rd edition:
It took the lifes of 90 Grey Knight Terminators to banish Angron and his escort of 13 Bloodthirsters for 1000 years and save Armageddon.
Today:
- Angron gets one-rounded twice and ressurects twice in one game.
Everything might be balanced and stuff, but this is just funny.
It's almost a meta commentary on how the Primarchs have gone from mythical figures that lurked in the background of the lore to being front and centre of the 40k lore but thematically lessened as a result. The HH book series has turned 40k towards an interesting direction that no one would have guessed in 2006.
To be fair, Armageddon happened well before the Great Rift.
Chaos is ascendant in a way never before seen.
Do I like it? As a Chaos player, absolutely. Tremble, lapdogs.
Their differences even extend to the way they do battle, as not all World Eaters charge screaming into melee combat. The Bloodstalkers are known for their patience and gunnery, reasoning that a warrior who lives longer claims more skulls for Khorne.
But you can't make these with this codex! Why even have the lore snippets if the rules can't reflect them?
Patience and gunnery from inside a tank of course! You'll live a lot longer inside one of them, especially when the rest of your side is frothing axe wielding loons.
Their differences even extend to the way they do battle, as not all World Eaters charge screaming into melee combat. The Bloodstalkers are known for their patience and gunnery, reasoning that a warrior who lives longer claims more skulls for Khorne.
But you can't make these with this codex! Why even have the lore snippets if the rules can't reflect them?
Patience and gunnery from inside a tank of course! You'll live a lot longer inside one of them, especially when the rest of your side is frothing axe wielding loons.
That guy over there? The one literally called The Betrayer? He's our General.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Unless they were the last model in the unit it wouldn't be tithe.
Plenty of vehicles, characters, and single-model units with plasma out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Been a while since I've gone over all the rules, but the Astra Militarum's Master of the Fleet can choose a unit to delay coming in from reserves by a turn. This should also work on Angron, right? Keeping Angron off the board for 1/5 of the game is worth his 25 points all ready.
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Whoever came up with this clearly didn't think it through.
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Whoever came up with this clearly didn't think it through.
There are 7 days in a week, not 8.
So he re-appears 9 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours later.
I gotta agree here. No reason for them to have included the weeks there.
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Yeah, we get it. Eight. Haha. Very funny. Eight. Khorne has a sacred number, which is Eight. Eight Eightbound in the Eightcage.
You're not going to point out that 8 weeks and 8 days later is actually 9 weeks and 1 day?
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Whoever came up with this clearly didn't think it through.
There are 7 days in a week, not 8.
So he re-appears 9 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours later.
I gotta agree here. No reason for them to have included the weeks there.
This is The Warp taking human perception and twisting it to its own ends. 8 Weeks, 8 Days, and 8 Hours. Why those time periods when that is also 1544 hours? Because Humanity sees the 8s and thinks "Khorne".
Should Angron somehow be cast back into the warp, he re-emerges unscathed precisely eight weeks, eight days, and eight hours later, heralded by eight Crimson Omens that strike fear into the hearts of all who witness them. You’d better believe he’ll be eight times as mad, too.
Whoever came up with this clearly didn't think it through.
There are 7 days in a week, not 8.
So he re-appears 9 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours later.
I gotta agree here. No reason for them to have included the weeks there.
This is The Warp taking human perception and twisting it to its own ends. 8 Weeks, 8 Days, and 8 Hours. Why those time periods when that is also 1544 hours? Because Humanity sees the 8s and thinks "Khorne".
While I don't like how the WE are, as said above, being flanderized with their new line, the article itself doesn't bother me that much. The Chaos obsession with numerology is universal, with the number seven coming up all the time when it comes to the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons using nine in tons of stuff. I think that it shows how potent symbology is for Chaos and how Chaos followers work it into almost everything they do. As for stuff like the Blood Stalkers and the 66th, while we so far don't see anything like that in the upcoming codex, this article might be hinting at future releases.
At least the article speaks about World Eaters shooting and vehicle units. Reads to me like advanced messaging on World Eaters second model wave. Probably won't see it for a year or two, but they are letting us know it will happen.
alextroy wrote: At least the article speaks about World Eaters shooting and vehicle units. Reads to me like advanced messaging on World Eaters second model wave. Probably won't see it for a year or two, but they are letting us know it will happen.
Second model wave =/= models allowed from the codex
Why not just let World Eaters players use Havocs?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Or more because we're now heading towards Space Wolf levels of Flanderisation for the WE it seems.
Are you really surprised?
alextroy wrote:At least the article speaks about World Eaters shooting and vehicle units. Reads to me like advanced messaging on World Eaters second model wave. Probably won't see it for a year or two, but they are letting us know it will happen.
They wouldn't need a "second model wave" if they'd just let World Eaters players use the shooting units that they've been using for years.
alextroy wrote: They could, but this is GW we are talking about
Yup. The same gw that gives WE access to the full gamut of generic Legion ranged units in the HH Legion arsenal. This isn't a "gw issue,". It's a "9th edition gw issue". There's rules writers at gw who don't have this flanderized view of WE . They just write for a different game, but still a gw game nonetheless.
alextroy wrote: At least the article speaks about World Eaters shooting and vehicle units. Reads to me like advanced messaging on World Eaters second model wave. Probably won't see it for a year or two, but they are letting us know it will happen.
Or just making sure that people understand that the lore supports more than just crazy berzerkers.
Wish they would have put an * by that bit and explained: *if you want to play this sort of World Eaters army, it's easier to make in the regular Chaos Marine Codex.
ArcaneHorror wrote: While I don't like how the WE are, as said above, being flanderized with their new line, the article itself doesn't bother me that much. The Chaos obsession with numerology is universal, with the number seven coming up all the time when it comes to the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons using nine in tons of stuff. I think that it shows how potent symbology is for Chaos and how Chaos followers work it into almost everything they do. As for stuff like the Blood Stalkers and the 66th, while we so far don't see anything like that in the upcoming codex, this article might be hinting at future releases.
And not just chaos but players themselves...Who have funny habit of saying you are not khorne player if your squads aren't multiples of 8, tzeentch if not multiples of 9 etc...
alextroy wrote: They could, but this is GW we are talking about
Yup. The same gw that gives WE access to the full gamut of generic Legion ranged units in the HH Legion arsenal. This isn't a "gw issue,". It's a "9th edition gw issue". There's rules writers at gw who don't have this flanderized view of WE . They just write for a different game, but still a gw game nonetheless.
One could make an argument that it is a sign of the further degeneration of the Legion post-Heresy. I'm not going to make that argument, but it is one that could be made.
And I'm a little surprised that they missed an opportunity there - why 66th, rather than 64th?
It's funny imo because GW clearly are trying to harken back to 3.5 on *some level*. The 3.5 World Eaters were just bezerkers, you couldn't take any special weapons, etc. A pretty boring army, but you know, at least you could customise units and such.
blood reaper wrote: It's funny imo because GW clearly are trying to harken back to 3.5 on *some level*. The 3.5 World Eaters were just bezerkers, you couldn't take any special weapons, etc. A pretty boring army, but you know, at least you could customise units and such.
Even the 3.5 book allowed you to have Bikers and Possessed, as well as Chosen riding Juggernauts.
blood reaper wrote: It's funny imo because GW clearly are trying to harken back to 3.5 on *some level*. The 3.5 World Eaters were just bezerkers, you couldn't take any special weapons, etc. A pretty boring army, but you know, at least you could customise units and such.
Except they forgot the rest of the 3.5 Codex options for World Eaters.
ArcaneHorror wrote: While I don't like how the WE are, as said above, being flanderized with their new line, the article itself doesn't bother me that much. The Chaos obsession with numerology is universal, with the number seven coming up all the time when it comes to the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons using nine in tons of stuff. I think that it shows how potent symbology is for Chaos and how Chaos followers work it into almost everything they do. As for stuff like the Blood Stalkers and the 66th, while we so far don't see anything like that in the upcoming codex, this article might be hinting at future releases.
The problem is in this case, they've been so eager to shove in more numerology stuff that they didn't actually think it through. That there aren't 8 days in a week means the "8 weeks, 8 days" fall apart and just feels so poorly written. It just a baffling thing to get wrong.
ArcaneHorror wrote: While I don't like how the WE are, as said above, being flanderized with their new line, the article itself doesn't bother me that much. The Chaos obsession with numerology is universal, with the number seven coming up all the time when it comes to the Death Guard, and the Thousand Sons using nine in tons of stuff. I think that it shows how potent symbology is for Chaos and how Chaos followers work it into almost everything they do. As for stuff like the Blood Stalkers and the 66th, while we so far don't see anything like that in the upcoming codex, this article might be hinting at future releases.
The problem is in this case, they've been so eager to shove in more numerology stuff that they didn't actually think it through. That there aren't 8 days in a week means the "8 weeks, 8 days" fall apart and just feels so poorly written. It just a baffling thing to get wrong.
But 8 weeks and 8 days is also 64 days, which is 8 times 8 days It's dumb, but multilevel dumb.
Suggesting that a GW writer forgot there are seven days in a week seems rather far-fetched. The "otherwise known as nine weeks etc etc" was probably the first thing the nearest colleague said to them.
Numerology aside, it seems there is a significant discrepancy between this lore article and the tabletop rules. I know there is some discussion as to how long a game turn takes exactly, but I'm not sure a little over 2 months is a realistic option.
JSG wrote: Suggesting that a GW writer forgot there are seven days in a week seems rather far-fetched. The "otherwise known as nine weeks etc etc" was probably the first thing the nearest colleague said to them.
And yet they still somehow thought it works in the format given.
Crispy78 wrote: Numerology aside, it seems there is a significant discrepancy between this lore article and the tabletop rules. I know there is some discussion as to how long a game turn takes exactly, but I'm not sure a little over 2 months is a realistic option.
Everything is possible with Primarch Crayon and his legion of Paste Eaters.
It's just a stupid ''our stuff is cool, buy our stuff''-pseudoarticle, don't overthink it.
Angron stuff from the article was meh. Felt like filler because they had to post something for the day. Was very interested in sub faction talk, even if it is just a few bits without rules support. Better having them in the fluff and not in rules than not having them anywhere. And hey, at least not absolutely all the fluff has been reduced to one dimension.
JSG wrote: Suggesting that a GW writer forgot there are seven days in a week seems rather far-fetched. The "otherwise known as nine weeks etc etc" was probably the first thing the nearest colleague said to them.
I can't believe someone didn't go "just use 88 days instead, it looks less......insert banter of choice"
alextroy wrote: They could, but this is GW we are talking about
Yup. The same gw that gives WE access to the full gamut of generic Legion ranged units in the HH Legion arsenal. This isn't a "gw issue,". It's a "9th edition gw issue". There's rules writers at gw who don't have this flanderized view of WE . They just write for a different game, but still a gw game nonetheless.
The 40K Legions are a far cry from the HH Legions. You are talking about before the fall marines compared to 10K years of Khrone degradation.
It is a pity they decided better options for this release where the 8-Bound and Khorne cultist rather than Bloodstalkers.
10k years also gives a lot of room for the evolution of said forces but instead, there's just been a bad reduction.
At least with Thousand Sons and Death Guard certain removals can be sort of explained. For example, I can understand Raptors or Warp Talons not being in the Psychic Robot or heavy slow dude Legions as they don't fit as well with the aesthetic or tactics of each army. But why are there no Havocs or a Havoc equivalent?
The same thing goes for WE with Raptors/Talons. Why would a dedicated CQC unit with rocket packs designed to get the user closer to the enemy not be in the army dedicated to CQC?
I don't think splitting the God Legions out was a bad idea it's just been poorly executed. Tsons are bland with far too much of the Arcanites mixed in from AoS and WE are just pathetic. At least DG got a lot of stuff even if the army lost some CSM units.
What bothers me is that it isn't just WE, it's Khorne. He's been reduced to such a shallow aspect and I don't find it much enjoyable compared to literally any of the others.
At least Daemons still have Skullcannons for 40k and Blades for AoS get cool characters and stuff.
I mean the Skullgrinder is easily my favourite. The weaponsmith of the Bloodbound who carries their anvil into battle on a big chain to smash enemies with it. So cool.
Gert wrote: I don't think splitting the God Legions out was a bad idea it's just been poorly executed.
I think there's a big plaque on a wall at GWHQ that says "Great Ideas. Terrible Execution". It's displayed prominently and centrally, and repeated at every team meeting at every level as it is clearly one of the company's core design principles.
I love the idea of Cult-specific Codices, but they've taken so much away that it hardly seems worth it. Filling the 1kSons with Beastmen was a cop-out, but at least it was on point. Nurgle got a bunch of unique vehicles, which was a nice touch, and heaps of characters. All WE seem to be getting is a massive reduction in available units. I fear for the Emperor's Children.
And then, in the same damned building, we have the AoS god-specific books... and they're great! Why is there always such a disconnect between studios at that place?
Honestly, I couldn't tell you. I met people from both teams a few years ago and they seemed exactly the same in terms of enthusiasm. Probably due to Chaos in AoS being pretty vaguely associated with just humans in general, whereas with 40k it's primarily Space Marines that take the starring role. AoS having a subgame largely dedicated just to Chaos Warbands also helps a lot and then with the additions from Underworlds, there is a lot of character to the armies.
40k just doesn't have that. Sure there are human Cultists and mutants like Beastmen but there's nothing really special about various Cults other than what God they worship. With AoS you have Gods, Realms, and other random weirdness like the Tarantulos Brood.
I think it also helps that there is a lot of army building freedom when it comes to AoS. For the God-aligned armies you can run full mortals, full Daemons, or a mix of the two all while adding a few units in from StD. And with Slaves, you can add in God-aligned units or build armies that fit some pretty cool themes, like with an entire army of just Warcry Warbands and monsters.
alextroy wrote: They could, but this is GW we are talking about
Yup. The same gw that gives WE access to the full gamut of generic Legion ranged units in the HH Legion arsenal. This isn't a "gw issue,". It's a "9th edition gw issue". There's rules writers at gw who don't have this flanderized view of WE . They just write for a different game, but still a gw game nonetheless.
The 40K Legions are a far cry from the HH Legions. You are talking about before the fall marines compared to 10K years of Khrone degradation.
It is a pity they decided better options for this release where the 8-Bound and Khorne cultist rather than Bloodstalkers.
Oh please. It has nothing to do with "10K years of degradation". WE players are still using units like Havocs and Obliterators right now. They've been doing so for years now. This is an example of terrible rules writing which invalidates people's collections that have been perfectly fine for years and years. That's it. The end.
alextroy wrote: They could, but this is GW we are talking about
Yup. The same gw that gives WE access to the full gamut of generic Legion ranged units in the HH Legion arsenal. This isn't a "gw issue,". It's a "9th edition gw issue". There's rules writers at gw who don't have this flanderized view of WE . They just write for a different game, but still a gw game nonetheless.
The 40K Legions are a far cry from the HH Legions. You are talking about before the fall marines compared to 10K years of Khrone degradation.
It is a pity they decided better options for this release where the 8-Bound and Khorne cultist rather than Bloodstalkers.
People say stuff like this but then you read Black Library books and no, units from the HH are still running around. Incidentally the traitor legions have not experienced 10,000 years in real time.
Gert wrote: I don't think splitting the God Legions out was a bad idea it's just been poorly executed.
I think there's a big plaque on a wall at GWHQ that says "Great Ideas. Terrible Execution". It's displayed prominently and centrally, and repeated at every team meeting at every level as it is clearly one of the company's core design principles.
I love the idea of Cult-specific Codices, but they've taken so much away that it hardly seems worth it. Filling the 1kSons with Beastmen was a cop-out, but at least it was on point. Nurgle got a bunch of unique vehicles, which was a nice touch, and heaps of characters. All WE seem to be getting is a massive reduction in available units. I fear for the Emperor's Children.
And then, in the same damned building, we have the AoS god-specific books... and they're great! Why is there always such a disconnect between studios at that place?
Yeah, as someone who does AoS as their main game it remains jarring that the god-specific books there could be done so well while it is done so poorly in 40k. While they certainly have their issues (thankfully more historical than current) each book does a fantastic job representing its army in both lore and mechanical rules. Playing a Nurgle army in AoS FEELS like playing a Nurgle army. Ditto for Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh.
Release this week is AoO Angron, Codex World Eaters, and every new model. However, no Combat Patrol. Need to by everything separately out the gate. You'll need to be patient if you want the Combat Patrol for a less expensive army.
I don't mind waiting. I don't even know if I'm going to bother with the codex, given how long it takes me to paint armies these days. It'll probably be 10th edition by the time I'm able to get a 1K point army together, let alone 2K.
Ignispacium wrote: I don't mind waiting. I don't even know if I'm going to bother with the codex, given how long it takes me to paint armies these days. It'll probably be 10th edition by the time I'm able to get a 1K point army together, let alone 2K.
Arbitrator wrote: Strange decision when they already announced the combat patrol but I guess they're banking on impulse buyers being unable to control themselves.
Yeah, this would be my guess too.
Either way, I'm sure many people are going to enjoy their World Eaters. Happy for Khorne fans.
Ignispacium wrote: I don't mind waiting. I don't even know if I'm going to bother with the codex, given how long it takes me to paint armies these days. It'll probably be 10th edition by the time I'm able to get a 1K point army together, let alone 2K.
You expecting we to get codex right away in 10th?
No, but I also know my own painting schedule well enough to assume there might be a 10th WE codex out by the time I've got a full army ready to play.
The most baffling thing about that article is they randomly felt the need to explain to Americans that a corner store is a bodega.
I'm trying to think of who, if anyone, I could find that would know what a bodega is (barring a handful that lived in Manhattan). Bonus points if they're somehow actually confused by corner shop.
Voss wrote: The most baffling thing about that article is they randomly felt the need to explain to Americans that a corner store is a bodega.
I'm trying to think of who, if anyone, I could find that would know what a bodega is (barring a handful that lived in Manhattan). Bonus points if they're somehow actually confused by corner shop.
What if some of the readers are from horrific, non-euclidean dimensions beyond the ken of mortal men, where things like corners or twinkies don't even exist? What then, huh?
Voss wrote: The most baffling thing about that article is they randomly felt the need to explain to Americans that a corner store is a bodega.
I'm trying to think of who, if anyone, I could find that would know what a bodega is (barring a handful that lived in Manhattan). Bonus points if they're somehow actually confused by corner shop.
What if some of the readers are from horrific, non-euclidean dimensions beyond the ken of mortal men, where things like corners or twinkies don't even exist? What then, huh?
The only thing you find at non-euclidean corner stores is dog food and treats for Hounds of Tindalos.
Voss wrote: The most baffling thing about that article is they randomly felt the need to explain to Americans that a corner store is a bodega.
I'm trying to think of who, if anyone, I could find that would know what a bodega is (barring a handful that lived in Manhattan). Bonus points if they're somehow actually confused by corner shop.
It's just that the word isn't really used over here, that's all.
I think the term bodega is probably more common in the US than in the UK, which makes it even more baffling. Its like someone on their marketing team just got back from a trip to New York (or Philly, LA, or Miami, or Austin, or any number of other American metropoles with a large latino population where the term "bodega" has been loosely adopted as part of the local lexicon) and learned a cool new word and wanted to establish their street cred by using it, except they didn't realize its not really in widespread use across most of the country.
Gert wrote: I don't think splitting the God Legions out was a bad idea it's just been poorly executed.
I think there's a big plaque on a wall at GWHQ that says "Great Ideas. Terrible Execution". It's displayed prominently and centrally, and repeated at every team meeting at every level as it is clearly one of the company's core design principles.
I love the idea of Cult-specific Codices, but they've taken so much away that it hardly seems worth it. Filling the 1kSons with Beastmen was a cop-out, but at least it was on point. Nurgle got a bunch of unique vehicles, which was a nice touch, and heaps of characters. All WE seem to be getting is a massive reduction in available units. I fear for the Emperor's Children.
And then, in the same damned building, we have the AoS god-specific books... and they're great! Why is there always such a disconnect between studios at that place?
Splitting the 4 gods into codexes works in AoS because you get both halves of the following : mortals AND demons. Until we get a fleshed out EC codex, we won't be able to get the codexes as we should be getting.
Voss wrote: The most baffling thing about that article is they randomly felt the need to explain to Americans that a corner store is a bodega.
I'm trying to think of who, if anyone, I could find that would know what a bodega is (barring a handful that lived in Manhattan). Bonus points if they're somehow actually confused by corner shop.
What if some of the readers are from horrific, non-euclidean dimensions beyond the ken of mortal men, where things like corners or twinkies don't even exist? What then, huh?
Careful! You might summon a certain poster who seems to live in such a fantastical hell scape.
Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
I think. Might also be tied to the unit size at the time. If you a mere handful left, nuking up to 3 simply may not balance the books enough. But if it’s a big old blob with loads of attacks to dish out, more appealing,
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
I think. Might also be tied to the unit size at the time. If you a mere handful left, nuking up to 3 simply may not balance the books enough. But if it’s a big old blob with loads of attacks to dish out, more appealing,
It would have been much better if the MWs were dealt after the combat.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
The little guys are supposedly S3, the big ones S4. But they benefit from the legion trait so they go up to 4 and 5 respectively a lot of the time.
I am a bit baffled why the cult lists don't include as a base the original legions, the renegades aligned to the same God, mortal followers/cultists, God specific demons and a method of summoning them, basic equipment survived or stolen since Heresy - Rhino and common variants (Preds, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, probably an AA one for balance).
Pretty much all models in stock or made anyway for the release.
Then you can get the extras like legion/god specific characters, vehicles, etc.
Too much work to playtest? Runs the risk of not selling enough new models? Not focusing enough on selling new stuff?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
The little guys are supposedly S3, the big ones S4. But they benefit from the legion trait so they go up to 4 and 5 respectively a lot of the time.
Wait, they do ? That's not the case for poxwalkers and tzaangors.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am a bit baffled why the cult lists don't include as a base the original legions, the renegades aligned to the same God, mortal followers/cultists, God specific demons and a method of summoning them, basic equipment survived or stolen since Heresy - Rhino and common variants (Preds, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, probably an AA one for balance).
Pretty much all models in stock or made anyway for the release.
Then you can get the extras like legion/god specific characters, vehicles, etc.
Too much work to playtest? Runs the risk of not selling enough new models? Not focusing enough on selling new stuff?
The unofficial Epic UK tourney list is a bit like that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
The little guys are supposedly S3, the big ones S4. But they benefit from the legion trait so they go up to 4 and 5 respectively a lot of the time.
Wait, they do ? That's not the case for poxwalkers and tzaangors.
I can't confirm it personally but it is as solid a rumour as it gets AFAIK. It makes sense because the Jackals are presumably a bit more involved in the meat and potatoes of legion life, unlike mindless poxwalkers or bestial tzaangors
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
The little guys are supposedly S3, the big ones S4. But they benefit from the legion trait so they go up to 4 and 5 respectively a lot of the time.
Wait, they do ? That's not the case for poxwalkers and tzaangors.
I can't confirm it personally but it is as solid a rumour as it gets AFAIK. It makes sense because the Jackals are presumably a bit more involved in the meat and potatoes of legion life, unlike mindless poxwalkers or bestial tzaangors
And yet, IW and AL cultists are not?
IW train quasi guard regiments and AL literally has assessts in their command?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone know what their base strength is? D3 for +1S, albeit once a battle might be OK if they base S4, and about to commit to a charge you’re not really expecting them to survive in the first place?
The little guys are supposedly S3, the big ones S4. But they benefit from the legion trait so they go up to 4 and 5 respectively a lot of the time.
Wait, they do ? That's not the case for poxwalkers and tzaangors.
Not sure about Poxwalkers, but Tzaangors do benefit from the Brotherhood of Sorcerers Legion trait.
Would make sense for Jakhals to benefit from it, and I haven't seen anything from the rumors saying they would not.
In case folks haven't noticed, a WE Master of Executions is in one of the pictures from the Jakhal article. It definitely looks better with the head swap.
Multi-build kits have to fill the spruce with parts for both builds, possessed are single build kits, so can be more economical with space. Both are probably going to be in the same sized box. Not a good reason, but probably the boring real reason.
GW have been doing the whole "elite units are 3 to a squad now!" since Primaris were released. When those three-man Primaris units were first released I was amazed that there wasn't an uproar, it seemed clear to me that it was just their way of selling you less for the same price (or sometimes a higher price).
They could do it with Primaris because they were new units (Eliminators, the derpy jump pack autocannon dudes, Bladeguard...), I guess they do it when they think that they can get away with it?
Hence the Eighbound are three to a box I guess, although to be fair to GW the Eightbound are supposed to be very big (they really fill out a 40mm base).
Edit: I hate to add more negativity to the site, but I've gotta say it as I see it, right or wrong.
That video was debunked when it was first posted a while ago. The ratios in the screenshot are clearly exaggerated; 40mm bases should be 25% bigger than berzekers. However someone measured the image at around 45% bigger.
That video was debunked when it was first posted a while ago. The ratios in the screenshot are clearly exaggerated; 40mm bases should be 25% bigger than berzekers. However someone measured the image at around 45% bigger.
It's either a silly mistake or clickbait.
Who knows I plucked it off Google, but there's few shots of them actually stood next to anything useful for a comparison, they're definitely taller than a terminator but not much bulkier from what I can tell.
That video was debunked when it was first posted a while ago. The ratios in the screenshot are clearly exaggerated; 40mm bases should be 25% bigger than berzekers. However someone measured the image at around 45% bigger.
It's either a silly mistake or clickbait.
Why can’t it be both? Therein lies the best engagement.
The Eightbound are simply not looking so good that I'm tempted to get a rather expensive box for three. They have the trope of not changing the silhouette too much, but adding tedious to paint amounts of "details" like even more teeth and armour trimming. The poses are also rather tame and uninspiring. I would have preferred something like the Slaughterpriest with the oversized hand and the Underworlds warband with a tall guy, chubby guy and the "Gorehulk" (I think that's the name). Or full body horror with asymmetrical limbs and inhuman proportions like the big possessed cultitsts that CSM got, but with ticked off Berzerker as a base. And I might built/(3d) print something like that and use chainaxe wielding minotaurs to proxy the other unit the kit builds (thank you, Bestiarum Miniatures).
I dislike squads of three overall for anything smaller than trolls or ogryns (who are also a bi5 small for that), five/ten is a much nicer number for a squad than 3/6/9, IMO.
I dislike squads of three overall for anything smaller than trolls or ogryns (who are also a bi5 small for that), five/ten is a much nicer number for a squad than 3/6/9, IMO.
Agreed. Squads of three is a horrible trend, but I can't see it getting better sadly. GW are invested in it now.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How much bigger are they than regular Possessed?
Yesterday's warcom article on Jackhals has them stood next to the Master of Executions, they don't look particularly different in scale to anything else.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How much bigger are they than regular Possessed?
Yesterday's warcom article on Jackhals has them stood next to the Master of Executions, they don't look particularly different in scale to anything else.
Image in question:
Spoiler:
I stand by the initial assessment, slightly taller but no more bulky than a terminator, not owning any of the new possessed, unsure how close they are size-wise but I'd wager it's close.
What annoys me the most about them being 3 to a box is that it isn't even half of Khorne's sacred number! 8 should be a regular theme throughout the World Eaters codex just like 7 should have been in Death Guard and 9 in Thousand Sons.
Gen.Steiner wrote: What annoys me the most about them being 3 to a box is that it isn't even half of Khorne's sacred number! 8 should be a regular theme throughout the World Eaters codex just like 7 should have been in Death Guard and 9 in Thousand Sons.
If you mix a box of them into a 5 man possessed box, you get 8.
I'm really curious to see if World Eaters are like some other armies in the recent past and get a second wave (and codex) in the next year and a half, or if this sorry release is what World Eaters players have to work with for years to come.
Gen.Steiner wrote: What annoys me the most about them being 3 to a box is that it isn't even half of Khorne's sacred number! 8 should be a regular theme throughout the World Eaters codex just like 7 should have been in Death Guard and 9 in Thousand Sons.
If you mix a box of them into a 5 man possessed box, you get 8.
I think it works out just fine. Death Guard got seven for the price of ten, so there's your holy number. World Eaters get three for the price of five. What's three plus five? Exactly!
Even Thousand Sons players can't complain. Just when you thought you know what your holy number is, it changes...
Gen.Steiner wrote: What annoys me the most about them being 3 to a box is that it isn't even half of Khorne's sacred number! 8 should be a regular theme throughout the World Eaters codex just like 7 should have been in Death Guard and 9 in Thousand Sons.
If you mix a box of them into a 5 man possessed box, you get 8.
If you just spend $120 USD (probably) you get 8 dudes, yes lol.
Gen.Steiner wrote: What annoys me the most about them being 3 to a box is that it isn't even half of Khorne's sacred number! 8 should be a regular theme throughout the World Eaters codex just like 7 should have been in Death Guard and 9 in Thousand Sons.
If you mix a box of them into a 5 man possessed box, you get 8.
Didn't the unit size for the Eightbound end up being 3-6?
Gen.Steiner wrote: Yeah, there is that, but I dunno. It just feels like a lot of the flavour has been left by the wayside over the last few years.
Definitely. I've found the 40k rules increasingly unimmersive since GW started the whole nonsense with "forge the narrative". If you have to tell the players to do the work themselves, it's a sure sign that the rules aren't written to reflect the background very well.
I think the idea of forging the narrative is a good one; but yes, the rules themselves seem much less reflective of the background than they have been in the past.
The Eightbound being 3-6 is just ... silly! If they put one more in the box (or even one less) they could have done 4-8. Ah well.
And... they have a skill that lets them shrug of Mortal Wounds. The circle of exceptions to exceptions continues, and destroys yet another useful concept.
Tsagualsa wrote: And... they have a skill that lets them shrug of Mortal Wounds. The circle of exceptions to exceptions continues, and destroys yet another useful concept.
I have to say that I'm really glad that the Combat Patrol box has two kits of Berzerkers and one jackal kit instead of some Eightbound - or a Helbrute or Termis or whatever. Even with the current prices the box price is decent enough compared to the 25 Euro or whatever (it was before the Euro) regiment boxes I started with all those years ago, when the plastic Berzerkers had not yet even released. For that price+20% off at my FLGS I might get two Combat Patrols and call it a day - and recreate the conversions from White Dwarf with a Skaven tail on the head and knife licking, now that I talked about the old kit
I don't actually play, though, and haven't in long time and enjoy sculpting and converting the most in this hobby. For me it's not an issue to built 8 man units of Possessed/Eightbound and have the look good, but I feel for everyone who has to use this new Codex. Three man squads. No cavalry *unit* and not even bikers to proxy, or, you know, use bikers. No jump troops?! It's just so bizarre. And even though I might get a box of Eightbound as parts donators, I'm unhappy that they "spent" a kit out of the small number they did for WE on a new unit and completely kicking Red Butchers to the curb.
Edit: hit the send button on my phone way too early
Indeed the Combat Patrol Box is very tempting, I'm considering retiring my Berzerkers for the updated scale and the price point is hard to pass up for finely updated models.
Gen.Steiner wrote: What annoys me the most about them being 3 to a box is that it isn't even half of Khorne's sacred number! 8 should be a regular theme throughout the World Eaters codex just like 7 should have been in Death Guard and 9 in Thousand Sons.
Yeah, my rusty memory. I had a memory of the original release in 3rd edition being 16 to a box but it was not the case!
To be fair, I double checked, too. I knew the original was 12, but the squad's been repacked 2-3 times and I wanted to make sure they hadn't increased it then decreased it like they have some kits.
I think I was thinking of the Empire Soldiers box, which was 16 to a box when they were released. At any rate this is drifting off-topic now probably...
Gen.Steiner wrote: I think the idea of forging the narrative is a good one; but yes, the rules themselves seem much less reflective of the background than they have been in the past.
The Eightbound being 3-6 is just ... silly! If they put one more in the box (or even one less) they could have done 4-8. Ah well.
Voss wrote: The most baffling thing about that article is they randomly felt the need to explain to Americans that a corner store is a bodega.
I'm trying to think of who, if anyone, I could find that would know what a bodega is (barring a handful that lived in Manhattan). Bonus points if they're somehow actually confused by corner shop.
EDIT: Correction! They were 12 to a box when they came out. That at least means that two boxes get you three squads of 8!
And 8 boxes of new elites gives you 24. Which is 8 squad which is khorne's number.
People should stop fixating on that number. Or alternatively not complain when GW uses 8 everywhere like some time ago here.
Let's double down on the gimmick instead. Three models in every Necron Triarch unit. Hexmark Destroyers only in units of six. Bend the game to fit around an arbitrary name choice.
EDIT: Correction! They were 12 to a box when they came out. That at least means that two boxes get you three squads of 8!
And 8 boxes of new elites gives you 24. Which is 8 squad which is khorne's number.
People should stop fixating on that number. Or alternatively not complain when GW uses 8 everywhere like some time ago here.
Let's double down on the gimmick instead. Three models in every Necron Triarch unit. Hexmark Destroyers only in units of six. Bend the game to fit around an arbitrary name choice.
Make Thousand Sons unplayable with this one weird trick...
EDIT: Correction! They were 12 to a box when they came out. That at least means that two boxes get you three squads of 8!
And 8 boxes of new elites gives you 24. Which is 8 squad which is khorne's number.
People should stop fixating on that number. Or alternatively not complain when GW uses 8 everywhere like some time ago here.
Let's double down on the gimmick instead. Three models in every Necron Triarch unit. Hexmark Destroyers only in units of six. Bend the game to fit around an arbitrary name choice.
Make Thousand Sons unplayable with this one weird trick...
I remember back when GW was bloating the game with special super detachments. Tzeench had awfull detachments that basicly said you needed 9 of a single unit to get the stupid detachment bonus. Like, field 9 units of pink horrors to get a bonus.
Chaos gods hang up on magic numbers has always been bad, exept when 7 Plague marines got full loadout of special weapons (well, that was really bad for anyone that had to face them). So Im all for giving the sacred nubers a rest.
Marshal Loss wrote: Combat patrol "a few months away" per GW community team on FB (hopefully they're just wrong, as the social media team often are).
I hope so. The article about it said weeks, and some of the rumor folks had it toward the end of February. I think a few months would kill a lot of enthusiasm for the army.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: I'm all for, "ha, ha, sacred number" jokes, but WarCom has been driving it into the ground this week.
Just wait until you get the book. They drive it into the ground in that too, from what I hear.
It's like the designers forgot about what 'anger' really is, and also any sort of honor that Khorne has (and he has it, in a way) and just hyperfixated on Blood and 8.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: I'm all for, "ha, ha, sacred number" jokes, but WarCom has been driving it into the ground this week.
Just wait until you get the book. They drive it into the ground in that too, from what I hear.
It's like the designers forgot about what 'anger' really is, and also any sort of honor that Khorne has (and he has it, in a way) and just hyperfixated on Blood and 8.
Man, i miss the times were khorne factions weren't just the fallout 4 equivalent of raiders...(aka junkies without a plan and one track minds to kill)
I miss the times we got things like the bloodpact.
They even went to the trouble of making World Eater factions - they're doing painting videos on them, FFS - and yet no factions rules, unlike every other full Codex. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
Losing most of their units, being given no variety of subfactions in return... and 8/blood/8/blood/8/blood total Flanderisation.
Losing most of their units, being given no variety of subfactions in return... and 8/blood/8/blood/8/blood total Flanderisation.
Good luck, EC players!
That's another low blow from GW - much like the repeated mentioning of Berzerker-Surgeons that also got zero representation on the tabletop.
All possible options for the future are also bad: either you wont get any of that stuff, period, OR it's locked in another book you need to buy, i.e. AoO - Angron, OR your codex is gonna get invalidated months into 10th edition when you can buy another book that includes the missing half of your army.
t's locked in another book you need to buy, i.e. AoO - Angron, OR your codex is gonna get invalidated months into 10th edition when you can buy another book that includes the missing half of your army.
They could do both of these as they did with Lumineth for AoS where they released a second book just 4 months later but also included the new rules in a Broken Realms book for those that got the old one
Losing most of their units, being given no variety of subfactions in return... and 8/blood/8/blood/8/blood total Flanderisation.
Good luck, EC players!
Yeah honestly I’ve been really excited for Emperors Children for a long time, and I’m not looking forward to them as much after this release.
My hype for EC died after Death Guard. The Thousand Sons were a nice release that wasn't too flashy or in your face, but stuck with the original designs pretty faithfully. And then the DG came with the cartoony mutations (I get Nurgle can be light hearted but still) and other questionable design choices and it killed my interest in the army. EC will be really hit or miss so Im not going to hold my breath. Though the solo noise marine is amazing and some of the Hedonite stuff isn't bad in AOS (not that that's an indicator, because the maggotkin are much more solid models than DG)
Losing most of their units, being given no variety of subfactions in return... and 8/blood/8/blood/8/blood total Flanderisation.
Good luck, EC players!
Yeah honestly I’ve been really excited for Emperors Children for a long time, and I’m not looking forward to them as much after this release.
My hype for EC died after Death Guard. The Thousand Sons were a nice release that wasn't too flashy or in your face, but stuck with the original designs pretty faithfully. And then the DG came with the cartoony mutations (I get Nurgle can be light hearted but still) and other questionable design choices and it killed my interest in the army. EC will be really hit or miss so Im not going to hold my breath. Though the solo noise marine is amazing and some of the Hedonite stuff isn't bad in AOS (not that that's an indicator, because the maggotkin are much more solid models than DG)
Part of the reason I sold off my Death Guard army midway through 8th. The realisation that they'd moved away from the pith helm, bloated designs that were present during early 2nd edition and through 2nd edition, then reappeared with the FW upgrade kit and hell, are even present on the 30k Mk VI upgrade heads in favour of tentacles, tentacles, and more tentacles where everyone has a tentacle for a tentacle with a tentacle spare and more teeth than the Osmond Family.. It also meant adding anything new, unitwise was a nightmare because they didn't match due to the complete aesthetic change and scale creep. You can only convert up so many plague flails, axes and so on untill enough is enough.
WE are pretty solid for keeping in theme with regards to appearances and haven't deviated too far from the original aesthetic. We can only hope that DG were a fluke and maybe the EC will keep the similar aesthetics...
Fayric wrote: Chaos gods hang up on magic numbers has always been bad...
GW's attempts at using them perhaps, but calling the concept 'always bad' doesn't make sense.
They've only been 'always bad', IMHO, in that the numbers for the Lost and the Damned seem inverse to what they should be. Khorne being eight - rhymes with hate - makes sense, and Slaanesh's six is close to sex, so all well and good.
Tzeentch being nine and Nurgle seven always seemed wrong to me. 'Seventh son of a seventh son' being a wizard thing seems like it should be Tzeentchian through and through. Nurgle's symbol is three circles, and thricefold three is nine. Also, nine is the highest of these numbers, and Nurgle's preference for swarms of flies and such - nine Nurglings to a base? - just seems right on that score. Remember the Nine Heads of Nurgle!
