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Been reading mulling over the ork army list and thinking about my own ork army. Between my experiences with the local meta and what I've read on stelek's blog, it looks like orks are back to being a 3rd tier army - with the prevalence of flamers, melta, mechspam, and the like, it's getting depressing.

Nobody seems to be able to come up with an orky answer to armour spam or a horde-ork defense against being tank-shocked into flamer-formation. Nobs (especially biker nobs) get eaten by template spam and battle psykers (the new, improved boo-librarians). Battlewagons are melta-bait, trukks are basically cardboard, etc, etc.

For orks to even have a shot at tourney play, it really looks like it will come down to the ruling on deff-rollas (a pretty lame way of dealing with tanks imo).

In other words, unless you're 'playing for fun' in an environment where the meta heavily favors orks already, they're book is back to being extremely limited.

I wonder what will shut down the new mechvet meltaspam lists?

Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

I wonder what will shut down the new mechvet meltaspam lists?

Dark eldar

I'm not having any trouble with Mech Vet IG armies. I just Dakka them with Lootas and mop up with Shoota Boyz.

Seriously all you have to do is play to the mission and forget stuff that doesn't matter. Tonight I played against a Mech Space Marine player and just ignored his two Land Raiders. I focused on killing Troops and contesting or holding objectives and guess what? I won.

Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

Yeah seriously stop crying. Ork are just as good as they ever were... just mek up like everyone else. Have you heard of boarding blanks?

180 boyz is still hard as hell to kill. People have been using melta and flame weapons for ages and what is different? Oh they are in tanks now... so bust the tanks and then bust the squad inside.

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

drummerholt1234 wrote:Yeah seriously stop crying. Ork are just as good as they ever were... just mek up like everyone else. Have you heard of boarding blanks?

180 boyz is still hard as hell to kill. People have been using melta and flame weapons for ages and what is different? Oh they are in tanks now... so bust the tanks and then bust the squad inside.

Ahahahahahahaha

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Yeah, bust the tanks... with what exactly? Please, tell me to use my warboss on those landraiders.

He said ignore the land raiders.

Deny troops and contest objectives.

I read Stelek's blog, too. He has alot of good things to say, but there is many ways to get the job done.

dumbuket wrote:

drummerholt1234 wrote:Yeah seriously stop crying. Ork are just as good as they ever were... just mek up like everyone else. Have you heard of boarding blanks?

180 boyz is still hard as hell to kill. People have been using melta and flame weapons for ages and what is different? Oh they are in tanks now... so bust the tanks and then bust the squad inside.

Ahahahahahahaha

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Yeah, bust the tanks... with what exactly? Please, tell me to use my warboss on those landraiders.

HAHAHA
You must not be a very good player if you lose with orks....
they are one of the best armies in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dumbuket wrote:
For orks to even have a shot at tourney play, it really looks like it will come down to the ruling on deff-rollas (a pretty lame way of dealing with tanks imo).

There is your answer of how to deal with land raiders!

HAHAHA
You must not be a very good player if you lose with orks....
they are one of the best armies in the game.

The new orks were never that good. They just had two things going for them: cheap boyz during a time when the metagame was totally fixated on killing MEQ's, and the 5th edition nob-biker-crutch rules exploit. Now the meta's shifted and horde removal is extremely easy, and the masses of templates and pbs neutralize the bikes.

I haven't played many games since mid 4th, so this is mostly theory-hammer. Even though you don't seem to know what you're talking about, your attitude is one of the problems I've got with the army - they had a brief time in the sun after their new codex came out, and then the new edition caught up to them just like their last codex. Unfortunately, it's going to be another year or two before guys like you figure out that the army's been neutered and adjust your attitudes and comp-scoring. Then the same thing will probably happen again in 2018 when they get their next book.

To beat mechvets there is a simple formula...

Destroy the chimeras first after those are gone you will win or get a draw because destroying Vets outside a Chimera is childs play. The mechvet army will have 3-4 of those and those are his scoring units.... also it the tank explodes so bye to the unit inside the vets will suffer S3 hits and will most likely fail there poor armour saves. If you ask any mechvet player whats the one thing that will beat them its losing their chimeras because without them they are just normal guards that walk.

Here is just a short list of what can bust a chimera in the ork codex:
1. Lootas
2. Any Rokkit armed model
3. Grot Kannons
4. Boss Snikrot flanking from behind (rear armour) with thraka... say bye bye barrage weapons sitting in the back.
5.Warboss/Nob (of any kind in close combat)
6. Tankbusta's (maybe people will finally start using them as their special rule that everyone hates won't affect much when facing a mech army.)

I am by no means saying that the orks are unbeatable. They are beatable. I beat them all the time. But they are not a 3rd Tier army. The are a 2rd tier and a 1st tier in the hands of a good player. I will give you that they are not as good as they once were but they are far from tier 3. If you want to here an amry that was made tier 3 then look at the Tyranids. I am also not saying that mechvets is a bad army. It is close to broken but can be broken itself.

Here is just a little list I pulled out of my head. It probably is crap but I think that it would be able to take on some mech armies.

2000pts
HQ
Grazghkull Thraka

(or for a hell of a good time 2 Big Meks w/ Shokk Attack Gun and PK)

Elites
Lootas x15
Lootas x15
Kommandos x 15 w/ x2 Rokkits, Snikrot

Troops
Ork Boyz x30 w/ x3 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Boss pole
Ork Boyz x30 w/ x3 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Boss pole
Ork Boyz x30 w/ x3 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Boss pole

Heavy Support
Kannons x3 w/ x3 ammo runts, x6 extra crew, Runtherd
Kannons x3 w/ x3 ammo runts, x6 extra crew, Runtherd
Kannons x3 w/ x3 ammo runts, x6 extra crew, Runtherd

That's not nearly enough Boyz, especially if you have Ghaz in a list.

Orks haven't been teir 3 for me since before speed freaks came out and I won probably 90% of my games after the ork clan lists came out. The new book is even better and more diverse. They are still one of the top armies out there even w/the new guard. You just need to adjust to the more heavily mechnized armies that are cropping up lately.

The following 2 quotes, from the same post, sum up the weakness to this thread.

The new orks were never that good.

I haven't played many games since mid 4th, so this is mostly theory-hammer.

Ok, for serious, play some 5th. If there isn't anyone around to play, you might want to stop posting on tactics boards about a game you are denied the opportunity to play, or at least do some in an interrogative manner.

Orks have been top tier since the moment of their launch. They dominated Adepticon in 08, and pretty much all the RTS's and GT's I've been to have seen the Orks repping and stepping. Currently, not counting Guard, the holy trinity is CSM, Chaos Daemons, and Orks. You get me? Orks and CSM are tied for which is better on any given day, and Daemons follow closely behind, only hamstrung by their Daemonic Assault rule.

The Guard have a new codex. It's been widely theoryhammered to beat many top tier lists. Early reports (Shep's batreps, etc.) are encouraging. Still, this is not yet proven on the tournament scene. We don't know how the Guard will handle the top tier lists, played by top tier players. We don't know how they'll handle spoiler lists like Mech Eldar. It isn't clear that they can massacre the first few rounds of scrubs hard enough to take a tournament, or how fast their games go. The Big Waagh is coming up in 2 weeks, maybe I'll see some fierce Guard lists there.

Even if the Guard are better than Orks though (and I don't have any idea whether that's true or not, my money's on the Orks), it wouldn't make Orks third tier. One bad matchup does not ruin a list, unless its vs. a scene dominating predator list (Mech Eldar at the end of 4th), and there's no indication yet that that's what Guard are. Wait and see.

I'm surprised only drummerholt1234 mentioned it, but Tankbustas. Tankbustas, Tankbustas, Tankbustas. 5th edition is the perfect target-rich environment for them.

Mix and match them with Lootas for long-range transport and squadron killing fury, and Burnas for mopping up whatever falls out.

drummerholt1234 it's strength 3 for things out of the tanks. Those vets will be taking a strength 4 hit.

That might kill a few more, which is even better

The Green Git wrote:I'm not having any trouble with Mech Vet IG armies. I just Dakka them with Lootas and mop up with Shoota Boyz.

Seriously all you have to do is play to the mission and forget stuff that doesn't matter. Tonight I played against a Mech Space Marine player and just ignored his two Land Raiders. I focused on killing Troops and contesting or holding objectives and guess what? I won.

Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

TQFTCBQEOMT

(The Quoting For Truth Cannot Be Quoted Enough Or More Truthfully)

Razerous wrote:

The Green Git wrote:I'm not having any trouble with Mech Vet IG armies. I just Dakka them with Lootas and mop up with Shoota Boyz.

Seriously all you have to do is play to the mission and forget stuff that doesn't matter. Tonight I played against a Mech Space Marine player and just ignored his two Land Raiders. I focused on killing Troops and contesting or holding objectives and guess what? I won.

Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

TQFTCBQEOMT

(The Quoting For Truth Cannot Be Quoted Enough Or More Truthfully)

I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised only drummerholt1234 mentioned it, but Tankbustas. Tankbustas, Tankbustas, Tankbustas. 5th edition is the perfect target-rich environment for them.

Mix and match them with Lootas for long-range transport and squadron killing fury, and Burnas for mopping up whatever falls out.

Isn't the problem that they are forced to try to shoot at things even if they are blatantly out of range? Which means that running them on foot, you can never move more than 6" (and 6" assault). And they don't come with a transport so you have to stick them in either hugely unreliable looted wagons, or use up your heavy support on them (or, bogard a trukk from some boyz).

Anyway, Stelek doesn't call them 3rd tier; "Bottom of competitive" is the term he used in a comment on his blog just the other day. I hardly think this qualifies as 3rd tier =] http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/03/my-40k-army-rankings.html
For the lazy:
Tau
Mechdar (E and DE)
SM (of varying colours)
IG
MechWH
Orks

Orks are one of the most (rightly) feared armies out there and there is no way that they have gone from tier 1 to tier 3 on the strength of the IG 'dex.

PBS means nob bikers are no longer an IWIN button, but surely that's a good thing?

There are many ways to counter IG with orks. It takes a little more thought on the part of the ork players and some design concepts are no longer valid - but that doesn't make them rubbish as an army.


P.S. - Just because Stelek is not always wrong does not mean he's always right.

number9dream:

Yeah, that is a problem when there aren't many vehicles on the board, but Mechanized-Veteran army depends on transports getting the Veterans into range of the enemy and/or to the objectives. All those Valkyries and Chimeras come to you. Besides, having them ride in a Battlewagon isn't exactly a bad thing since their Rokkits are Assault weapons, so the tank can grind forward at 6" a turn and fire its own weapons, which can also be Rokkits or a Zzap Gun.

sourclams wrote:That's not nearly enough Boyz, especially if you have Ghaz in a list.

Like I said its just a list I put together in like 5-10 mins. It obviously needs some tweeking but I think it is the basis for a good shooty ork army.

n0t_u wrote:drummerholt1234 it's strength 3 for things out of the tanks. Those vets will be taking a strength 4 hit.

That might kill a few more, which is even better

Well thats good my point is even more viable now

Actually, Stelek's latest verdict on orks is that they're 3rd tier. More specificially, he advises:

Sell the Orks before everyone figures out how horrible they are in 5th
edition.

You did say beyond changing the army completely.

I don't think there IS an uber ork build.

A bit extreme, but I think he's on to something. No, I haven't had more than a dozen games since 5th took off, and the fact that I won them all makes me *less* inclined to believe that I've mastered the current meta. But, and it's a big "but", I still think I've got a handle on what's going on right now. More armour. More AV14 especially. More melta, and more flamers. Orks can't deal with AV14 from long range, and struggle against massed armour, have morale problems, and can't really mech up effectively on their own. The ork army has got serious problems in any competitive setting, and I've yet to read any suggestions other than "stop crying and lern2play" and "just use taktiks". It's not just one bad match-up. It's a general inability to cope with heavy mech builds - if you can't kill landraiders, and you can't deal with chimeraspam, you're suddenly boned against Marines, Chaos, Raider-spam daemonhunters, and Guard. It's not just the games I play, its the ones I watch every week hanging out at the GW. And trust me, guard are *Popular* around here.



Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

dumbuket wrote:Actually, Stelek's latest verdict on orks is that they're 3rd tier. More specificially, he advises:

Sell the Orks before everyone figures out how horrible they are in 5th
edition.

You did say beyond changing the army completely.

I don't think there IS an uber ork build.

A bit extreme, but I think he's on to something. No, I haven't had more than a dozen games since 5th took off, and the fact that I won them all makes me *less* inclined to believe that I've mastered the current meta. But, and it's a big "but", I still think I've got a handle on what's going on right now. More armour. More AV14 especially. More melta, and more flamers. Orks can't deal with AV14 from long range, and struggle against massed armour, have morale problems, and can't really mech up effectively on their own. The ork army has got serious problems in any competitive setting, and I've yet to read any suggestions other than "stop crying and lern2play" and "just use taktiks". It's not just one bad match-up. It's a general inability to cope with heavy mech builds - if you can't kill landraiders, and you can't deal with chimeraspam, you're suddenly boned against Marines, Chaos, Raider-spam daemonhunters, and Guard. It's not just the games I play, its the ones I watch every week hanging out at the GW. And trust me, guard are *Popular* around here.


Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Orks don't need to deal with AV14 at long range. They've got biker bosses, trukk mobs and suicide biker squads to deal with it in cc. They've hardly got 'bad moral'. They're normally fearless, and even if they're not they've still got decent Ld. Orks can easily fight chimera spam, lootas take chimeras apart.

Orks have not been made into a "3rd tier" codex.
A) They still stomp everything that is 3rd tier.
B) They still beat everything in 2nd tier reliably.


The Atlanta metagame hasn't gotten this memo about them not being #1, let alone being demoted to even 2nd tier. Orks are still nasty-competitive, and continue to win tournaments here. The only thing that challenges my boyz are... you guessed it, other Orks! All Guard really do is give me a reason to still include Lootas in my lists, and look at picking up Tankbustas.


Side note:

dumbuket wrote: Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Two: Take a Kannon, fire it in template mode and it's S4 (defensive).

The Green Git wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

Sounds like that SM player had a pretty terribad army.

My sallies love seeing orks lined up against them. Makes all those twin linked heavy flamers i have happy.

dumbuket wrote:Actually, Stelek's latest verdict on orks is that they're 3rd tier. More specificially, he advises:

Sell the Orks before everyone figures out how horrible they are in 5th
edition.

You did say beyond changing the army completely.

I don't think there IS an uber ork build.

A bit extreme, but I think he's on to something. No, I haven't had more than a dozen games since 5th took off, and the fact that I won them all makes me *less* inclined to believe that I've mastered the current meta. But, and it's a big "but", I still think I've got a handle on what's going on right now. More armour. More AV14 especially. More melta, and more flamers. Orks can't deal with AV14 from long range, and struggle against massed armour, have morale problems, and can't really mech up effectively on their own. The ork army has got serious problems in any competitive setting, and I've yet to read any suggestions other than "stop crying and lern2play" and "just use taktiks". It's not just one bad match-up. It's a general inability to cope with heavy mech builds - if you can't kill landraiders, and you can't deal with chimeraspam, you're suddenly boned against Marines, Chaos, Raider-spam daemonhunters, and Guard. It's not just the games I play, its the ones I watch every week hanging out at the GW. And trust me, guard are *Popular* around here.



Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Yeah, but just the day before that (June 30th), he said this:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/06/my-first-contest.html?showComment=1246502236016#comment-c8628869081871984786
(Scroll down to the comments)

Me:

Have orks fallen out of the top tier completely for you now? I remember you had them reasonably high (from memory you listed it as Tau, Mechdar, Marines, IG, Witchhunters, Orks.. But I could have gotten a few of those wrong).

Or am I reading too much into you including Orks together with tyranids

Stelek:

Orks are at the bottom of competitive.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/03/my-40k-army-rankings.html

I don't see how he'd go from "bottom of competitive" (which is a decent grade, I would say) to "3rd tier" in 1 day

with the new rules for vehicles (mainly, that they're in squadrons, and if you immobilize one, it's destroyed because it's in a squad) - tanks have been neutered. You have to take them as individual tanks (and therefore a waste of a slot) in order to avoid this. An immoblized tank used to be able to still be a pillbox--now, it's nothing. That means, providing you penetrate of course, which is NOT as impossible as you're making it out to be, there's a 50/50 change you'll destroy the tank (compared with a 1/3 chance before).

Also, as I said, it's not impossible to break through their armour - AV12 can be penetrated with enough rokkits (I mean, the entire POINT to the new Ork list is concentration of fire). As for AV14, like everyone here has said--CC the suckers. Your problem is that you want the best of both worlds--you want Orks that can obliterate the enemy from afar AND up close--it doesn't work like that. In fact, I think what people will eventually find is not how great the Guard are, but how neutere their tanks have become, as a result of the squadron rules--I know that I'm not looking forward to taking Russes - not that the previous book was any better for that, but hey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or, if you're that convniced that the list sucks--why don't you take Stelek's advice and sell your army, and go Guard?

I think your overplaying the whole squadrons thing. You dont have to use squadrons. How it's waste's of a slot to take individual tanks i dont know. Take 3 heavy tanks just like you used too. No reason to take squadrons if your so worried about them. It's an option. Not something you HAVE to use.

I think there's a lot of oversimplification going on in this thread. Loota's are great and I wont disagree with that, but it takes what, 6 BS2 rokkit shots to cause a single damaging hit on av12 statistically? And then the odds of that destroying the tank are even lower. And now factor in that they have anywhere from 5-10 av12 tanks and that whole shoot them idea doesnt seem so amazing. Especially when you factor in things like cover that everyone seems to forget about.

And to those who say guard doesnt have enough templates play someone who is smart and takes hull heavy flamers on their vehicles or a heavy flamer in their CCS. Or a heavy flamer in their vet squads. Or hellhounds. Hell if I was in an ork heavy local meta I know I'd be using eradicators.

I dont wanna sound like I'm hating on he greenskins. I have a big soft spot for them and and building an ork army of my own at the moment. I just dont think its as easy as some people want to portray.

Orks are still 1st Tier. I mean come on so what if the end up not beating IG. So they cannot beat 1 army out of how many?

I read YTTH and Stelek seems not to have any battle reports of acutally fighting orks so really what is he going on? Just doing Math? Mathhammer is all well and good for getting a general idea, but playing is totally different.

I know Stelek brings up good points, but really he is just another 40k with a big mouth. I rather have discussions like this then just one persons opinions to come to a understanding about what is good or bad.

I do think Nob bikers are not top tier anymore. I would run the Tide if anything.