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General_K wrote:with the new rules for vehicles (mainly, that they're in squadrons, and if you immobilize one, it's destroyed because it's in a squad) - tanks have been neutered. You have to take them as individual tanks (and therefore a waste of a slot) in order to avoid this. An immoblized tank used to be able to still be a pillbox--now, it's nothing. That means, providing you penetrate of course, which is NOT as impossible as you're making it out to be, there's a 50/50 change you'll destroy the tank (compared with a 1/3 chance before).

Although squadrons do make vehicles more fragile, they also serve as force multipliers due to how blast rules and simultaneous resolution work now. Tanks may die faster, specifically the AV12 open topped artillery chimeras facing down loota fire, but they're also more lethal while they're alive. I'd call it a wash, honestly.

Also, as I said, it's not impossible to break through their armour - AV12 can be penetrated with enough rokkits (I mean, the entire POINT to the new Ork list is concentration of fire).

Rokkit fire is one of the worst anti tank options that Orks have. Not only because of BS2 and the low reliability of single shot S8, even against low AV, but because shooting prevents Orks from running, which is what a big mob of Boyz should be doing.

If you assume that you'll roll roughly average, then you need two mobs of 30 Boyz each firing 6 total rockets to get one roll on a vehicle damage table against AV12. Those odds are horribly against you.

As for AV14, like everyone here has said--CC the suckers. Your problem is that you want the best of both worlds--you want Orks that can obliterate the enemy from afar AND up close--it doesn't work like that.

The problem with that solution is that you make yourself vulnerable to whatever is inside of the transport. It's becoming largely accepted that to be "effective", your army has to be able to take out both the transport and whatever is inside in one turn. If your Warboss runs up to a Crusader and explodes it, then you're going to eat the charge from 8 Assault Terms who will eat that unit for lunch for similar points levels. When you add in attrition from shooting on the way in, pretty soon even Orks run out of enough guys.

Ork success is working against them now. Since they're successful, everyone is meta-gaming against them. It's the same reason that in 3rd/4th you could build an Eldar army with like 30 starcannons and do really well - because you were playing MEQs 3/4 of the time.

Orks have dropped from the top of the pile due to the SM and IG books. They can still be very competitive. They may need some favorable match-ups to win a tourney, but that can be said about a lot of armies.

Idk what the complaining is about Orks are still as good as ever. It takes a good player to run them and see what they have to do to win. But orks can do anything in the game better than anyone in the game. Just play. I play Mech IG lots of Vets and such and the games are tough. I have lost both games I have played to The Green Git's Orks :( because he is a smart player. Listen to the guy orks are 1st tier and cheaters lol jk but not really. Oh my custum force field blah blah my deff rolla is over costed blah blah boyz are so expensive in there trukk blah blah my s9 PC nob is sooo expensive....

Sure they might not be the 'hawtness' right now but tier 3?

I still look through the Ork 'Dex and see lots of killy for good prices. They might not be geared to whip the new 'meched up' lists, but they are still a steal compared to say........

'Nids :(
'Crons :(

off topic but I see your sig do you just like old dex's lol?

It just so happens my favourite armys tend to be GW's "The Gimp", locked in a basement for most of their lives.

Clthomps wrote:

I wonder what will shut down the new mechvet meltaspam lists?

Dark eldar

I actually will agree with this - as a DE player I'm loving the new mech heavy theme everyone seems to be buying into. Say hello to my little lance-spam.

I think this might be a good tme to weigh in...

My most regular opponent plays orks, and he is determined to figure out the ork silver bullet to IG.

My current army has no armor 14, and no PBS. And he can't beat it. It's got 12 tanks. 12 heavy flamers, 4 melta cannons, 2 bastion breachers, 2 manticore missile launchers, 4 multi-lasers and 13 meltaguns.

There isn't really a single bit of "anti-ork" tech in there. I designed the list to block movement with fast vehicles, while pounding armies with long range anti-tank (which also doubles as anti-infantry). The veterans aren't really a feature of the army. They just screen my artillery, by giving them cover saves and short range anti-armor.

I think its best to not sell orks as 'perfectly capable of beating a standard mech IG army' Foot orks facing off against a catachan/elysian alpha striker? Or a cadian/catachan foot army? That would be a snap to win.

However, it is also important to note that I have lost games against other codexes with my list (not a lot but that ratio is changing as adjustments are made) and that the ork armies dominance over every other army hasn't significantly changed. IG is a bad matchup, thats it. Some people want their army to not have bad matchups, but thats just not part of wargaming.

My "uber guard army" matches up poorly against modern tau armies, bright eldar and dark eldar, and 'alpha strike' marines and IG. Ork players just need to come to terms with having a bad match. Doesn't mean you suddenly aren't tourney playable, just means you don't coast through tourneys anymore (no offense meant, I coasted through Vegas with a dread bash list)

I think the advice I'd give my ork playing friend (If he would listen to my advice ) would be to focus on marines, make sure he can 50/50 vulkan (which is certainly possible), and make sure you continue to destroy eldar/dark eldar and demons. Take the 30/70 against lash and IG, and don't forget to have fun.

Khornatedemon wrote:

The Green Git wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

Sounds like that SM player had a pretty terribad army.

My sallies love seeing orks lined up against them. Makes all those twin linked heavy flamers i have happy.

I love it! "The Space Marine lost so the player must suxx0rs!"

Puh-lease.

Shep wrote:However, it is also important to note that I have lost games against other codexes with my list (not a lot but that ratio is changing as adjustments are made) and that the ork armies dominance over every other army hasn't significantly changed. IG is a bad matchup, thats it. Some people want their army to not have bad matchups, but thats just not part of wargaming.

Good points. Orks are designed to have trouble dealing with armor. IG gets a lot of good armor. It's a bad match-up. Personally, I don't think that should stop someone from playing Orks in tournies. IG are still not nearly as common as MEQs. And while IG is the new hotness, that still doesn't mean it's even close to 1/2 of the armies you'll see at a tourney. And knowing GW, I'm sure the next few codexes will have lots of things to take the shine off the IG. Most armies are designed to have a built-in weakness, and when see your opposite number across the table, it'll be a tough game. Matchups are always a factor in a tourney setting.

sourclams wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

People like Stelek is why people don't read Stelek's blog. Whatever.

How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

The Green Git wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

Sounds like that SM player had a pretty terribad army.

My sallies love seeing orks lined up against them. Makes all those twin linked heavy flamers i have happy.

I love it! "The Space Marine lost so the player must suxx0rs!"

Puh-lease.

yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Redbeard wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

People like Stelek is why people don't read Stelek's blog. Whatever.

How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

--I'm inclined to agree here---I still don't understand why people are saying Orks should be played shooty - these gits were made for combat!

Redbeard wrote:How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

True to an extent. Tau, demons, eldar and dark eldar have to choose between "tank killing" and "infantry killing". these are the armies that lose to foot orks with take on all comers lists.

CSM tank busting comes with free plasma cannons and lash to make those cannons even more nasty, IG tank busting (that isn't vendetta) is all strength 10 blast or large blast or strength 8 blast, which doesn't sacrifice troop killing ability, not to mention free heavy flamers, witch hunters tank hunting is riding in an immolator. Space marines have strength 10 large blast ordnance, the redoubtable predator destructor, speeders with heavy flamers and multi-meltas, land raider redeemers with multi-meltas and thunder hammer termies. All of these guys can get tank kill incorporated into infantry kill. Without having to make that sacrifice to infantry in order to keep up with mechanized armies, they can give orks a hard time. they have an acceptable amount of infantry kill while being able to exist almost entirely behind armor values, or just pushing 2 units a turn around with lash.

General_K wrote:[I still don't understand why people are saying Orks should be played shooty - these gits were made for combat!

With the exception of those who play novelty or noncompetitive lists, Orks don't want to shoot. Just allow us to hurt things inside vehicles as we assault the vehicles, and we'll gladly stop trying to shoot.

Khornatedemon wrote:yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Two tac squads, Combat squad split. Rhino for each. Two Speeders with Hvy Bolter/Ass Cannon. Dred, Ass Cannon/DCCW. Dred, MM/DCCW. Big Marine squad of somthing (Vets? Dunno) with Chaplain Cassius, two Power Fists, Three Storm Shields, and a couple Power Weapons delivered via LR Crusader. Tac Squad taxied by LR Redeemer. Vanguard squad with Shrike. I'm probably missing something.

No Sternguard. And he DID have flamers in his Vanguard. They had jump packs and did the turn one assault thing. Oddly enough, the Vanguard were one of the only units that could close the deal, taking down the Battlewagon. Too bad they died a horrible death to Ghazkull & his Bully Boyz when they disembarked.

Say what you want... I've faced Mech IG, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other Orks, and Daemons. I can go toe to toe with them all. If I lose a game it's not due to a failing of the Codex but usually my poor decision making in game or the dice gods frowning on me.

This happens every new codex, people take it and are very successful at first, however as soon as people go back and return to their planning stage they see holes in the new shiny army and ways to overcome it, that is what our respected ork players are having to do now, they were the top of the chain for a while, due in no small part to the old vets taking the 2 inches of dust off their old ork armies and putting them back on the table. Guard is new and untested and will win for a little while granted, but people will come up with ways to deal with it.

I will admit though 5th edition radically changed how thngs sit, assualt armies may need a really big rethink to compete, (my Blood Angels assualt army sure did). Also sometimes 2 armies just match up bad like others have said. I have had a few games that I played to stop the other guy from winning, contest this claim that, if he has 90% of his army left, but no objectives, he/she didn't win.

Redbeard wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

People like Stelek is why people don't read Stelek's blog. Whatever.

How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

Agreed, although I have no idea how this pertains to the original quotes.

Claim 1: Mech Vets have no templates
Counter 1: Mech Vets have lots of templates

Nobody said anything about basic Orks not being very good.

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Two tac squads, Combat squad split. Rhino for each. Two Speeders with Hvy Bolter/Ass Cannon. Dred, Ass Cannon/DCCW. Dred, MM/DCCW. Big Marine squad of somthing (Vets? Dunno) with Chaplain Cassius, two Power Fists, Three Storm Shields, and a couple Power Weapons delivered via LR Crusader. Tac Squad taxied by LR Redeemer. Vanguard squad with Shrike. I'm probably missing something.

No Sternguard. And he DID have flamers in his Vanguard. They had jump packs and did the turn one assault thing. Oddly enough, the Vanguard were one of the only units that could close the deal, taking down the Battlewagon. Too bad they died a horrible death to Ghazkull & his Bully Boyz when they disembarked.

Say what you want... I've faced Mech IG, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other Orks, and Daemons. I can go toe to toe with them all. If I lose a game it's not due to a failing of the Codex but usually my poor decision making in game or the dice gods frowning on me.

sounds like 2 vanguard squads which equals double fail.

Same goes to you, say what you want, but my mech SM army with 7 twin linked heavy flamers, 3 twin linked flamers, and 2 flamestorm cannons has never lost to a horde ork army. Does that mean it cant lose to orks. No, not at all. It just hasnt so far. So because your orks have faced the guys at your store and won doesnt mean the same will fly in every game against any opponent. This is what I meant by over simplifiaction. Just because something can do something doest mean it will.

And yes, that is a very bad marine list. 2 troop choices in a marine army = sad panda. vanguard = fail. And he sent vanguard after a battlewagon full of nobz and ghaz? Epic Fail.

sourclams wrote:Although squadrons do make vehicles more fragile, they also serve as force multipliers due to how blast rules and simultaneous resolution work now.

Personally, my favorite use of a squadron over individual FOC choices involves a Daemonhunter Inquisitor and a pair of Mystics. Where once there was but a single Battle Cannon / Demolisher Cannon shot for the Deep Striking force, now there are multiple plates of pie. Good times!

- Marty Lund

They aren't bad. Just not a "seer council" or "alpha strike" metagame army.

They suffer b/c this edition is about melta and they basically have none.

Just to put my two cents in here. and keep in mind i dont care much for orks, i dont like the play style or the look. i've been playing mech IG, and have been rolling every army ive come agenst for about 2 months now. i pulled a draw with and ork army last night and the orks should have won if not for a bad move at the end of the game by the player. so i may not like them but hands down i respect them, still a comp army by a long shot.

Khornatedemon wrote:Same goes to you, say what you want, but my mech SM army with 7 twin linked heavy flamers, 3 twin linked flamers, and 2 flamestorm cannons has never lost to a horde ork army. Does that mean it cant lose to orks. No, not at all. It just hasnt so far. So because your orks have faced the guys at your store and won doesnt mean the same will fly in every game against any opponent. This is what I meant by over simplifiaction. Just because something can do something doest mean it will.

You can stop the chest thumping for your Salamanders. So you can tool up flamers and beat Orks. Whoop-dee-doo. Let me know ahead of time I'm facing Marines and I can tool to beat that, too. I didn't tool my Ork list to beat Marines and it was no where near a horde list (unless you call 60 something Ork boyz in 2500 points a horde ).

The *point* here is that in a blind scenario where you have to build a list to take all comers, Orks (in my hands anyway) will win more than they lose. They are hardly a second rate army, let alone third tier.

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:Same goes to you, say what you want, but my mech SM army with 7 twin linked heavy flamers, 3 twin linked flamers, and 2 flamestorm cannons has never lost to a horde ork army. Does that mean it cant lose to orks. No, not at all. It just hasnt so far. So because your orks have faced the guys at your store and won doesnt mean the same will fly in every game against any opponent. This is what I meant by over simplifiaction. Just because something can do something doest mean it will.

You can stop the chest thumping for your Salamanders. So you can tool up flamers and beat Orks. Whoop-dee-doo. Let me know ahead of time I'm facing Marines and I can tool to beat that, too. I didn't tool my Ork list to beat Marines and it was no where near a horde list (unless you call 60 something Ork boyz in 2500 points a horde ).

The *point* here is that in a blind scenario where you have to build a list to take all comers, Orks (in my hands anyway) will win more than they lose. They are hardly a second rate army, let alone third tier.

I didnt tool my list to beat orks either. Thats the standard composition of my tournament army, along with just about any vulkan list. Which is the most competitive of marine lists. So try again buddy.

I'm glad in your hands orks are better than everyone else's. You must be a god among gamers.

The main problem is that people seem to be accustomed to playing a certain "type" of ork army.


The fact is though orc mech is disgusting with its low troop choice mobility and ability.

Keep it polite! I don't care what the other guy said, that's no reason for you to be rude.

(This is not directed at Hollismason; there are several posters in this thread that have been rude.).

I stand by the fact that properly played orks were never 3rd tier since no one was really equipped to deal with them back in the day. Current Mech Orks is one of the strongest lists in the game and green tide will make a little bit of a comeback due to people gearing up for mech armies. But they most definitely are not tier 3.

Why exactly will Green Tide make a comeback because of the mech lists? It seems to me that the current hot mech lists have plenty of anti-horde weapons built into their lists without even trying, and an abundance of weapons that can be either AT or AI depending on the meta without actually handicapping the list's ability to deal with both types of army greatly. I feel like Mech just flat out trumps Green Tide at this point. Looking at Marines, IG and Chaos mech anyway. I think the point was made before that Mech Eldar and DE are less well off becuase they tend to have to pick one or the other to kill when they build the list and i is more difficult t oget the same kind of diversity of weapons that the Imperial/Chaos mech lists can put out. Battlewagon Orks is also a very scary army with Ghazghkull at the helm.

I expect it'll be roughly about the same time that Ork players rediscover Tank Bustas for dealing with multiple incoming armoured units. Two units of Tank Bustas in front, and a unit of Kommandoes lead by Snikrot coming in from behind and the Imperial Guard player will have to make some hard choices.

The Green Git wrote:Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

*sorry, can't resist!*

just because he was opposing you on the other side of the table doesn't mean you can call him something you place in your rectum! remember dakka's rule #1!