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Frank Fugger wrote:It's not just the inability to deal with AV14 without tailoring a list that does for Orks. Sit there and come up with lists entirely designed to crush Land Raiders, and you'll usually wind up crushing Land Raiders. Well done you. Then round two comes and 60 Sisters in Rhinos roll you. Etcetera etcetera.

See... that argument can be used on any army though. Take your Land Raider spam and the IG Melta Brigade rolls you. Take the IG Melta Brigade and Dark Eldar Dark Lance/Mechdar roll you. Take Mechdar and my Kan Wall rolls you. There is a counter for most power lists to be found somewhere, in some army.

The tournament howler monkeys cried, and GW answered. It's the nature of 5th Edition now... Rock, Paper, Scissors just on a more grand scale.

Actually, I can see how an Ork list designed to mangle Land Raiders by volume of fire would mangle 60 Sisters in Rhinos much more easily.

See... that argument can be used on any army though. Take your Land Raider spam and the IG Melta Brigade rolls you.

Land Raider spam is one particular type of list that can be built from the Smurf Codex, and while it's not necessarily the best one it can still handle itself reasonably well. So, while you can level the accusation of one-dimensionality at one particular army list (Raider-spam) from the Codex, it can't be levelled at the rest of the book.

One-dimensionality and lack of variety is a thread that runs through the entire Ork codex. You can see it in this thread; with Orks, the answer to everything is close combat. Sure you can build a list that looks shooty on paper, but throw it at some Battlesuits or a proper Guard gunline and suddenly it ain't so shooty anymore. Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwing armies will outshoot specifically-built Ork shooty lists, that's how bad they are.

CC is what Orks do best. It's also effectively all they do and that needs to be fixed, because as long as that remains the case Orks will remain simple, stale and predictable. Simplicity is good; the other two aren't qualities you look for in competetive army lists.

.... as an aside... I'm not even sure how fair it is to say that the Raider-spam list is one-dimensional; sure there's very little CC, but with so many heavy weapons and PotMS do you really need it? Tailored lists, Lance weapons and Fast Melta will ruin it's day for sure, but anything else, including Power-Tau, provided those Broadsides and Pirhanas bite it quickly enough, it can handle itself.

The tournament howler monkeys cried, and GW answered. It's the nature of 5th Edition now... Rock, Paper, Scissors just on a more grand scale.

It isn't, though; and Raider-spam is a good list to demonstrate this. Raider-spam will counter a lot of low-AV mech lists (Sisters, CSM, SM Mech, Chimeras), shooty lists (anything that can't put out at least 4 S10 shots per turn and doesn't have S8+ Ordnance, Power-Tau also find it hard to cope with the LR vs RH pen-roll duels that occur once the Pirhanas bite the dust) and CC lists (Nids, Space Wolves, Daemons), but relies on being able to deal out wicked damage whilst taking very little in return and is thus flummoxed by anything that can reduce the damage the big tanks can do to them while they get into Melta range (stuff like Stormies jumping from Valks, Melta-Smurfs in Pods or on Bikes), or which can damage AV14 whilst not worrying overmuch about the weapons the LRs are carrying (Demolisher Russes, masses of Oblits), or which is able to do both (Lance weapons on Fast Skimmers).

That's not a case of Rock, Paper, Scissors at all; and you'll find with any competetive Codex that Rock, Paper, Scissors can be overridden by proper list composition and a working knowledge of how the army you're using fits together and, equally importantly, how the other armies do. With a properly balanced, streamlined list from any of the "better" Codexes you should, after you've gotten the zen of it down, be able to walk into a game with anyone no matter what they're running and be reasonably assurred of success.

The very fact that you just can't make an Ork list that is reasonably balanced and streamlined means Orks are a Rock, Paper Scissors Codex. If you've brought the right units to the table you might roll whatever you're playing, but in round two a different question will be asked of your army list and nine times out of ten you'll find you don't have an answer for it because Orks do nothing beyond spray-and-pray and CC rushing.


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Nurglitch wrote:Actually, I can see how an Ork list designed to mangle Land Raiders by volume of fire would mangle 60 Sisters in Rhinos much more easily.

Explain how.

Uhh...correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Orks done quite well in tournaments since their current Codex came out? So how come they suddenly suck so much?

Btw, what is "Power-Tau"? Is it a Mech-Tau? Gunline Tau? Hybrid?

None of the above. It's Crisis Suits galore, Fusion Blaster Pirhanas, any combination of Railheads and Broadsides, Pathfinders for Markerlights, compulsory FW squad and some Kroot. It's difficult to play because you're getting hammered with S10 AP1 and Melta from the first turn onwards, most of it BS5, plus there's Crisis Suits with Missile Pods and Plasma galore and that stupid Assault Phase move they get ready to mongle your infantry once the transports eat it. Doesn't scale particularly well, but it doesn't really need to.

The Ork Codex has been out for ages now, the style of play is simple, one-dimensional and hasn't ever changed, and a lot of their crutch units are made failtastic by being expensive and easy to pound down with S8 weapons. Plus Nob Bikerz are one of the few armies still susceptible to being Lashed into trees nowadays.

40k is as much a rock-paper-scissors game as it ever was, if not more. While Orks can build a list to deal with Landraiders, that list might struggle against others. Orks can build a powerful list that will struggle against Land Raider spam. Yet, Land Raider spam will quickly drop to a Tau-railgun-spam list, Dark Eldar with lots of lances, etc. Match-up is a huge factor in tourney success.

Moreso for Orks and other one-dimensional Codexes because, as I've said, they just can't answer a lot of the questions asked of them because they are, primarily, a concept Codex; that is, they were built around the fluff rather than the game mechanics. That makes them fun to play, but it also makes them a one-dimensional CC horde that can be played in other ways, but probably shouldn't.

On the other side of the coin you've got Codexes like the Smurfs, IG, Eldar, Tau, and to an extent the Deldar. You can throw well-composed army lists from these Codexes in against most things and have a reasonable chance of success, purely because they either do several things at once or do one thing to such a potent extent that countering it is extremely difficult. They have the flexibility and firepower to meet you however you want to be met and still hand you your face.

You can't do the same thing with Orks simply because making a well-composed army list with them is hard; and by well-composed I mean one which contains units that can deal with both infantry and armour, at least to some extent. Railheads, Crisis Suits and, to a lesser extent, Broadsides can do it. Bike Squads, Dreads, Land Raiders, Terminators, Sternguard, and a million other units from the Smurf Codex can do it. The Eldar are slightly less able in this regard, but they make up for it by being able to hit hard on the move and being difficult to damage. What have the Orks got that can do anything but mongle forward and charge stuff?

Frank Fugger wrote:None of the above. It's Crisis Suits galore, Fusion Blaster Pirhanas, any combination of Railheads and Broadsides, Pathfinders for Markerlights, compulsory FW squad and some Kroot. It's difficult to play because you're getting hammered with S10 AP1 and Melta from the first turn onwards, most of it BS5, plus there's Crisis Suits with Missile Pods and Plasma galore and that stupid Assault Phase move they get ready to mongle your infantry once the transports eat it. Doesn't scale particularly well, but it doesn't really need to.

Uhh...no offense but isn't that pretty much your standard ho-hum Tau list? The problem with Tau is...against fast assaulty armies, you often don't get anything more than your first turn shooting, however destructive it may be, the enemy will inflict equivalent (or worse) damage in assault phase.

Nurglitch wrote:Elessar:

It's true, you don't seem to know math-hammer, or at least the part where you calculate the odds of what I'm talking about and not something else. Recall that Zzap Guns can take Ammo Runts, meaning that each Gun in a battery can be Twin-Linked if you roll S8+. Moreover that any glancing or penetrating hits automatically result in a Shaken result besides any other result.

When will a Zzap Gun battery roll S8+? About 41% of the time, going by the bell curve of 2D6 additive. 16% of the time you'll be hitting with S10. With the re-roll, each Zzap Gun will have a likelihood of hitting at about 75%. And denying that Land Raider the ability to use its Assault Cannons, Flamestorm Cannons, and Hurricane Bolters is a good thing, because it allows your Tankbustas to close and deliver the killing blows with Tankbusta Bombs and Tankhammers.

Moreover, as you may have noticed, 5th edition is a highly mechanized environment, which means that Tankbustas, particularly Spam Tankbustas, don't need to have their line of sight controlled.

To answer the last point first, perhaps you've never played MechDar. I use a highly successful 1750 list that eludes being in 24" like it was Nurgle's Rot, or Swine Flu as most call it. Shoot my Prism that's 48" away, please.

Now, Zzaps. Okay, let's give them the trimmings. Battery gets that 16% on it's only shot (because as soon as it become a threat it becomes nuked, since Artillery is rubbish.) The battery of 3 get 1 natural hit, 1 on re-roll. 2hits = 1 roll on dam chart. At AP2. So 1/3 chance to destroy, 1/3 chance (if a Crusader being shot) to double shake - so Shake. 1/6 to Immob. 1/6 to kill the AssCan or MM. So, 50% of the time, it rolls on towards you 12", and either you get shot by other stuff, or SCOUTS get out, and shoot you dead where the snivelling Grots cower. Then you flee, if any survive.

@Malecus: I agree re the unfinished look of the Dex. KMB says it all.

@Frank: Thanks, but I'm not sure they are.

@The Green Git: Precisely HOW does a Kan Wall roll MechDar, please? I'm genuinely confused why you say this...

Elessar wrote:

@The Green Git: Precisely HOW does a Kan Wall roll MechDar, please? I'm genuinely confused why you say this...

It doesn't. I've got 9 Kanz in my store locker, and I can confidently say that Mechdar simply buzz around ignoring them. If Lootas are crushing transports, that's another thing entirely, and Kanz are simply incidental to the list.

I've played a Kan Spam only once, admittedly, but I raped it.

Frank Fugger wrote:Moreso for Orks and other one-dimensional Codexes because, as I've said, they just can't answer a lot of the questions asked of them because they are, primarily, a concept Codex; that is, they were built around the fluff rather than the game mechanics. That makes them fun to play, but it also makes them a one-dimensional CC horde that can be played in other ways, but probably shouldn't.

On the other side of the coin you've got Codexes like the Smurfs, IG, Eldar, Tau, and to an extent the Deldar. You can throw well-composed army lists from these Codexes in against most things and have a reasonable chance of success, purely because they either do several things at once or do one thing to such a potent extent that countering it is extremely difficult. They have the flexibility and firepower to meet you however you want to be met and still hand you your face.

You can't do the same thing with Orks simply because making a well-composed army list with them is hard; and by well-composed I mean one which contains units that can deal with both infantry and armour, at least to some extent. Railheads, Crisis Suits and, to a lesser extent, Broadsides can do it. Bike Squads, Dreads, Land Raiders, Terminators, Sternguard, and a million other units from the Smurf Codex can do it. The Eldar are slightly less able in this regard, but they make up for it by being able to hit hard on the move and being difficult to damage. What have the Orks got that can do anything but mongle forward and charge stuff?

I have a lot of respect for Tau in the hands of the right player, but still... they are to vulnerable to fast lists. Vulcan Bikes own Tau, period.

On paper, assuming you manage to somehow handle the Suits then yeah, Biker armies are going to do for your Tau list. Helluva lot of Multi-Trackered Markerlit Missile Pods and Plasma Rifles to deal with though; the Railheads, Broadsides and Pirhanas ain't the only things that can hurt you.

On the other hand, a melta does pretty well aimed at a suit, too. Not saying that it would be a roll over for the Marines, but Vulcan would be a tough match for Tau.

Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Frank Fugger wrote:On paper, assuming you manage to somehow handle the Suits then yeah, Biker armies are going to do for your Tau list. Helluva lot of Multi-Trackered Markerlit Missile Pods and Plasma Rifles to deal with though; the Railheads, Broadsides and Pirhanas ain't the only things that can hurt you.

Suits really aren't that hard to kill. They die to almost anything on assault, and they can be shot pretty easily too. Sure, they're mobile...but most of their armament is short-ranged too.

The bad weapons are short-ranged. The good ones are all 24-36", which, when you add in Multi-Trackers and 6" of movement, works out at 30-42" with a 6" move after they've been fired.

If you're playing someone who doesn't know how to equip or use their Suits then Suits are easy to kill. Otherwise you're going to struggle to take them down whilst simultaneously being pounded with Railguns, Submunitions, Smart Missile Systems and Fast Skimmer Melta.

EDIT: If this is going to turn into a thread speculating over which Codex is better between Tau and Orks then let's just say it's Tau and stop it now. Otherwise let's make another thread where the in-depth discussion of how much better the Tau Empire Codex is won't derail a thread that is, after all, based on discussing how bad the Ork codex is.

Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

Frank Fugger wrote:Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Sorry, but unless played by a complete newb, Biker Vulkan will crush any Tau list. I have played it over and over with our resident Biker Vulkan, and the Tau just can't stop it.

It is the 1st turn turbo boost/inv. save that decides the contest.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Sorry, but unless played by a complete newb, Biker Vulkan will crush any Tau list. I have played it over and over with our resident Biker Vulkan, and the Tau just can't stop it.

It is the 1st turn turbo boost/inv. save that decides the contest.

Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out

The Orks I mentioned above are at 1750. At 2k you add in 2 squads of Koptas with Rokkits + 1 Buzzsaw per squadron and scout move turbo to get 3+ cover save before the game starts. Then the Koptas have the choice of anihilating tanks or tying up suits in CC turn one...even more bad news for the Tau

Frank Fugger wrote:The bad weapons are short-ranged. The good ones are all 24-36", which, when you add in Multi-Trackers and 6" of movement, works out at 30-42" with a 6" move after they've been fired.

If you're playing someone who doesn't know how to equip or use their Suits then Suits are easy to kill. Otherwise you're going to struggle to take them down whilst simultaneously being pounded with Railguns, Submunitions, Smart Missile Systems and Fast Skimmer Melta.

You mean, bad weapons like flamers or meltas?

Yes, if the game was being played on infinitely large pool table, most enemy units would never catch Missile pod armed suit...unfortunately, this is not the case. An assault-y Ork (or anything) army is on charge range - or at very least, small arms range - on Turn 2. There is really only so much shooting you can do in one turn.

Frank Fugger wrote:
EDIT: If this is going to turn into a thread speculating over which Codex is better between Tau and Orks then let's just say it's Tau and stop it now. Otherwise let's make another thread where the in-depth discussion of how much better the Tau Empire Codex is won't derail a thread that is, after all, based on discussing how bad the Ork codex is.

What, Tau codex better than Ork? HAHAHAHA. Have you visited Tau forums lately? Half the messages are about bemoaning how badly they need a new Codex. Btw, I play Tau. I like them - but are they particularly powerful? Hell no. I've played against Orks and they have no problems at killing my suits. Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

Backfire wrote:Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

No.

Just No.

Rear armor 10. Even if I need 6's to hit, I'm still getting a 2/3 chance to score at least one glance with each regular boy that gets to swing. Flechettes try to make it fair, but still don't do it.

The only thing that Orks can't handle with ease is a 14/14/14 vehicle. That's what half of this thread has thrown at us, "Orks can't kill my uber box of terminators because it's awesome! Spehhs Mr1nes! LOL!". So that makes us a tier 3 army, or "bottom of competitive" to quote Stelek. To address the original post that claimed Guard made Orks tier 3, well... I can't really address that because I still don't see it being possible. There's just not enough firepower to kill the orks before they reach you and tear you apart unless you're geared up to face a horde army. In which case the armored lists from other codices run them over. Show ya tomorrow at 'Ard Boyz.

Alerian wrote:Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Because they have units that can deal with both infantry and armour at range and Orks don't. Because they don't rely on being able to mongle forward and charge to be effective, whereas Orks do. Because... yeah, because the Codex is better than the Ork one.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

I love how the reply to every challenge laid at the feet of Orky awesomeness is a tailored list.

Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Sorry, but unless played by a complete newb, Biker Vulkan will crush any Tau list. I have played it over and over with our resident Biker Vulkan, and the Tau just can't stop it.

It is the 1st turn turbo boost/inv. save that decides the contest.

Your Tau might not be able to, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the Codex; it indicates a problem with the player. The Tau have a million and one ways to reduce Biker armies of any persuasion to a trickle within a turn of shooting. Power-Tau especially; sure there are cover saves involved that the Power-Tau can't ignore, but, as any Loota or Autocannon afficionado will tell you, lots of wounds-on 2+ shooting is just as good as a few low-AP shots per turn because MEQ armies, especially Biker ones, become a little less durable with each wound they take. Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

Seriously, the Tau are awesome.

Backfire wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:The bad weapons are short-ranged. The good ones are all 24-36", which, when you add in Multi-Trackers and 6" of movement, works out at 30-42" with a 6" move after they've been fired.

If you're playing someone who doesn't know how to equip or use their Suits then Suits are easy to kill. Otherwise you're going to struggle to take them down whilst simultaneously being pounded with Railguns, Submunitions, Smart Missile Systems and Fast Skimmer Melta.

You mean, bad weapons like flamers or meltas?

Yes. Why put a unit as fragile as the Crisis Suit in a position where it's open to be charged no matter what it does? Particularly when your HS choices are carrying 72" S10 AP1 Railguns and your Melta can be mounted on Fast Skimmers. Makes no sense to me.

Inb4 "templates ignore cover saves so I need them". So do 30+ wounds-on 2+ shooting attacks per turn, which is what you get with 10 Multi-Tracker MPod/ PRifle Crisis Suits. You don't need templates with the Tau; another reason they're awesome.

Yes, if the game was being played on infinitely large pool table, most enemy units would never catch Missile pod armed suit...unfortunately, this is not the case. An assault-y Ork (or anything) army is on charge range - or at very least, small arms range - on Turn 2. There is really only so much shooting you can do in one turn.

The size of the table has nothing to do with the range of the Suits' weapons or how far they can move, so your logic is flawed. If your opponent is spamming Multi-Tracker MPod/ PRifle Suits and you're catching them in CC he's doing it wrong.

Face it; a properly composed Tau list will give anyone a hard time. A Grey Knights list will shoot-and-scoot most low-Sv armies into nothingness, and they have Stormbolters and no 6" Assault Phase move. The Tau have S7 Missiles, S6 Plasma, and Jet Packs.

Frank Fugger wrote:
EDIT: If this is going to turn into a thread speculating over which Codex is better between Tau and Orks then let's just say it's Tau and stop it now. Otherwise let's make another thread where the in-depth discussion of how much better the Tau Empire Codex is won't derail a thread that is, after all, based on discussing how bad the Ork codex is.

What, Tau codex better than Ork? HAHAHAHA. Have you visited Tau forums lately?

Yeah; their army lists are filled with useless throw-away crap like Fire Warriors (awful infantry by anyone's standards), Devilfish (oh dear), Flechette Dischargers (why? Kroot curtain is better at deterring CC) and Krootox. Krootox, for fsck's sake. Why?

Half the messages are about bemoaning how badly they need a new Codex.

The same could, and indeed can, be said of any forum whose Dex hasn't been updated for 5th Edition. Eldar players say it all the time; they blame their Codex because they can't win with two Avatars and Storm Guardians.

Btw, I play Tau. I like them - but are they particularly powerful? Hell no.

Depends on the build you use. Mech-Tau suck, because FWs and Devilfish suck. GUnlines suck for the same reason. Kroot-spam sucks because Kroot suck. Etcetera etcetera.

I've played against Orks and they have no problems at killing my suits. Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

Then you're Doing It Wrong; "it" being using your Suits. What load-out do they have and how many of them do you take?

Malecus wrote:

Backfire wrote:Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

No.

Just No.

Rear armor 10. Even if I need 6's to hit, I'm still getting a 2/3 chance to score at least one glance with each regular boy that gets to swing. Flechettes try to make it fair, but still don't do it.

What about the 20-30 Kroot sitting around them? They make it hard to CC a Railhead to death. Ohnoes your mighty Orks have defeated my 100pt Kroot swarm in CC and Swept them from the board; now it is time for you to eat Submunitions and Smart Missiles.

The only thing that Orks can't handle with ease is a 14/14/14 vehicle. That's what half of this thread has thrown at us,

And the only answer thrown back has been a tailored list that would suck against anything but AV14 spam. Well done Ork Codex; you truly are a winner!

"Orks can't kill my uber box of terminators because it's awesome! Spehhs Mr1nes! LOL!".

Who said it had Terminators in it? I normally take 3 5-man Scout Squads or something similarly cheap when I'm spamming Raiders; if I take Termies at all they're used as a meat shield to keep my precious BAWKSES from being CCed.

So that makes us a tier 3 army, or "bottom of competitive" to quote Stelek.

No, what makes Orks "bottom of competetive", to quote Stelek, or "gak", to be Frank, is that their only answer to specific threats is list-tweaking. You can't do that at tourneys. That's why Orks suck.

To address the original post that claimed Guard made Orks tier 3, well... I can't really address that because I still don't see it being possible. There's just not enough firepower to kill the orks before they reach you and tear you apart unless you're geared up to face a horde army. In which case the armored lists from other codices run them over. Show ya tomorrow at 'Ard Boyz.

I imagine Ork players across the land are saying the same thing. We'll see.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Your Tau might not be able to, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the Codex; it indicates a problem with the player. The Tau have a million and one ways to reduce Biker armies of any persuasion to a trickle within a turn of shooting. Power-Tau especially; sure there are cover saves involved that the Power-Tau can't ignore, but, as any Loota or Autocannon afficionado will tell you, lots of wounds-on 2+ shooting is just as good as a few low-AP shots per turn because MEQ armies, especially Biker ones, become a little less durable with each wound they take. Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

Sorry Frank, but on this one you are wrong. I have won and placed through 3rd in many tournaments with my Tau. I have played countless Vulcan Biker vs. "Power" Tau games and always to the same result. If your results differ, you are not playing the right Vulcan Biker list or opponent.


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Frank Fugger wrote:
No, what makes Orks "bottom of competetive", to quote Stelek, or "gak", to be Frank, is that their only answer to specific threats is list-tweaking. You can't do that at tourneys. That's why Orks suck.

You and Stelek do seem to share a lot of the same opinions and unfortunately, attitude. You have given a lot of blanket answers to many of the questions posed. Unfortunately statistics do not back up your opinion, Orks are PROVEN winners. Now that may change, but how much of that is the codex, and how much of that is the fact it is 2-3 codices old and no longer the "it list" that sets the meta game?

Here's what I keep hearing: "I can tailor my lists to beat Orks so they suck" and "Orks can't beat every army out there unless they tailor their lists so they suck".

Let's just be clear: EVERY list will have a counter. EVERY army can tailor to beat another army. EVERY army will have lists it struggles against.

So they all suck.

methoderik wrote:Sorry Frank, but on this one you are wrong. I have won and placed through 3rd in many tournaments with my Tau.

And yet you haven't figured out the secret to stopping Biker armies is torrenting wounds-on 2+ shooting and moving your Suits. Strange, that.

I have played countless Vulcan Biker vs. "Power" Tau

Srsly? And still lost?

games and always to the same result. If your results differ, you are not playing the right Vulcan Biker list or opponent.

So we're agreed that the error is in the wetware, yes?

You and Stelek do seem to share a lot of the same opinions

A lot of people share opinions with Stelek. A lot of people share opinions with a lot of other people. That's how opinions work; especially opinions on an immutable set of rules and regulations. People notice things within them, and sometimes their observations overlap. That's how schools of thought develop.

and unfortunately, attitude.

I dunno how to feel about that :-s

You have given a lot of blanket answers to many of the questions posed.

Explain.

Unfortunately statistics do not back up your opinion, Orks are PROVEN winners.

No; Orks are proven noob-hammers. Their simplicity allows them to roll people who are new to the game or who are running lists that aren't optimised, where a more refined Codex (like, for instance, the Tau Empire one) which relies on more than "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE" to produce results needs a higher investment of time and effort to learn. Orks are the 40K equivalent of Li Long from Soul Calibur; they're a button-masher army that will allow you to tonk 90% of shoddy opposition, but fail it against lists and players with a bit more nous.

Now that may change, but how much of that is the codex, and how much of that is the fact it is 2-3 codices old and no longer the "it list" that sets the meta game?

It's all the Codex, because metagame is garbage in the same way that tiers are garbage. I guarantee you there were 40K players who'd figured out the Nob Bikerz list within days of it becoming "the done thing", and I'm sure not one of them had to alter the lists they were running in order to tackle the crutch units. Maybe in the mire of poor players unwilling to invest the time and energy into learning the mechanics of 40K a metagame exists, but there are always going to be people who understand the game a little more deeply, who are able to ignore the conventions and do what they do with what they've got. If everyone could do that maybe going to games nights wouldn't be such a chore; although to be honest, the few ones I've been to in Liverpool were pretty cool. The lists were imaginative (one lad had a huge Sisters and Kroot footslogger army). Bad, but imaginative.

Also, I'm not Stelek. I might like to be because I've heard his wife is hot, but I'm not he and he's not me. Inb4 "only the true Stelek would deny his divinity".

Frank Fugger wrote:

Alerian wrote:Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Because they have units that can deal with both infantry and armour at range and Orks don't. Because they don't rely on being able to mongle forward and charge to be effective, whereas Orks do. Because... yeah, because the Codex is better than the Ork one.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

I love how the reply to every challenge laid at the feet of Orky awesomeness is a tailored list.

Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

Frank...how do you see the list that I posted as tailored?

That is not a "tailored list" that I mentioned. It is a good standard 1750 list.

20-30 Lootas make a mess out of ANYTHING that is not AV14.
3 BWs w/ Boarding Planks filled with Shoota boys and Nobs w/PK, protected by a KFF are a threat to every unit in the game.
Snikrot with Kommandos? Never leave home without him. He is just that good.
More boys on foot to protect/ screen the Lootas? Why not.

I don't care if it facing MEQ, GEQ, or Tau that is a strong list. If you weren't so stuck on "Tau > Orks! Raarrr!" you would see that.

Oh yeah, it is a fairly balanced list too...and it isn't even running a unit of Nobs.

Yes, it has trouble with AV 14 all around, but that is about it.

Malecus wrote:

Backfire wrote:Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

No.

Just No.

Rear armor 10. Even if I need 6's to hit, I'm still getting a 2/3 chance to score at least one glance with each regular boy that gets to swing. Flechettes try to make it fair, but still don't do it.

To clarify: it's more catching them than hitting them, that's the problem. Anyway, it's not such a big deal since he can just try to kill my infantry or suits.

Frank Fugger wrote:
No; Orks are proven noob-hammers. Their simplicity allows them to roll people who are new to the game or who are running lists that aren't optimised, where a more refined Codex (like, for instance, the Tau Empire one) which relies on more than "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE" to produce results needs a higher investment of time and effort to learn. Orks are the 40K equivalent of Li Long from Soul Calibur; they're a button-masher army that will allow you to tonk 90% of shoddy opposition, but fail it against lists and players with a bit more nous.

And again sorry you are wrong. Tournament Results for the past year or two have been posted, and I am fairly confident that if you took the time to look you would find that codex Orks are anything buy "tier 3". But argue away that they are not until you are blue in face if that is your prerogative, you seem content doing it.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

Uh...what "tailoring" Orks exactly need against Tau? What I fear if I'm playing Orks:

-Bikes
-Large shoota squads
-Deffkoptas
-KFF Battlewagons
-Lootas

Aren't those pretty much staple of most Ork builds? So where's the "tailoring"?

Frank Fugger wrote:
Your Tau might not be able to, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the Codex; it indicates a problem with the player. The Tau have a million and one ways to reduce Biker armies of any persuasion to a trickle within a turn of shooting.

Hmm, lets see. Unit of 3 Missile pod suits rains death on turboboosting Nob Bikers. We are kind and assume that all six shots hit:

-5 will wound
-2 will get through cover saves
-Painboy will save 1 wound.

So your suits, costing 160+ points or so, caused one (1) wound on the Nob Bikerz. Woo hoo. Or if it's regular Bikers (MEQ or otherwise), you killed two, which is bit better, but remaining can still assault you next turn and will probably cause much more damage than you did.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

What?

Frank Fugger wrote:
Yes. Why put a unit as fragile as the Crisis Suit in a position where it's open to be charged no matter what it does? Particularly when your HS choices are carrying 72" S10 AP1 Railguns and your Melta can be mounted on Fast Skimmers. Makes no sense to me.

Because even the Almighty Railgun really isn't guaranteed to stop a Battlewagon every time? Probability for Railhead to get destroy/immobilize result is somewhere in 25% range, half that if the Wagon gets cover save...

Frank Fugger wrote:
Inb4 "templates ignore cover saves so I need them". So do 30+ wounds-on 2+ shooting attacks per turn, which is what you get with 10 Multi-Tracker MPod/ PRifle Crisis Suits. You don't need templates with the Tau; another reason they're awesome.

So now the Suits are shooting up infantry? I thought they were going to shoot the Bikes? And of course there might also be 'Koptas, or Trukks, or Kans...