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Alerian wrote:Frank...are you blind?

That is not a "tailored list" that I mentioned. It is a good standard 1750 list.

My bad, it looked so formulaic I assumed it had to have been set up to deal with Power-Tau. God love you for trying, though.

20-30 Lootas make a mess out of ANYTHING that is not AV14.

Yeah, BS2 is awesome. 5+ to hit is negated by firing 90 shots I suppose. If only there were a way to do that every turn, eh?

I'm going to save myself some time and do it like this; you are able to tackle precisely 3 units per turn outside of B2B. 6, if your Wagons make it into B2B with other vehicles. On a flat table with no terrain it'll be difficult to cut up their movement and it might well happen, assuming of course there's nothing screening the vehicles you're trying to B2B. Or your Battlewagons haven't been destroyed before they can do anything worth doing. It's shot full of holes.

I don't care if it facing MEQ, GEQ, or Tau that is a strong list.

It's not. 4 Land Raiders roll you. 3 Leman Russes roll you. 6 Leman Russes roll you easier, with room to spare for a load of Mechvets, HHs and Skimmers to tackle your Wagons before they can do anything worth doing.

Hell, I'd bring my shoddy pure Grey Knights list against this thing and probably laugh the Ork player out of the club. Seriously, it's a poor list.

It you weren't so stuck on "Tau is roxxors compared to Orks! raarrr!" you would see that.

I'm not stuck on that. My angle is "Orks are not a good tournament army". Judging by the slackness of this list I'm right.

Maybe if you weren't so stuck on using your noobhammer to roll Shrike lists you'd join the rest of us in the real world.

What's that? Oh yeah, it is a fairly balanced list too...and it isn't even running a unit of Nobs.

Yeah, because excluding a particular type of unit is how you balance a list.

Balance, in this sense, doesn't mean playing fair. Balance in the context of tournament lists means having a list that you can wield any number of different ways. The list you've posted here can be wielded precisely one way: "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE". It sucks.

Yes, it has trouble with AV 14 all around, but that is about it.

If you think that's the only problem with this list I have a bridge you might like. 3 (non-AV14) targets from range, man. That's just silly.

How is this debate still going 8 pages later? Orks have done well in every GT since their new dex came out. They've done the best at several (Adepticon 08, for example). They haven't done badly once.

Everyone who thinks the Ork Codex isn't any good is a scrub. Let just one person who was in the top ten on the circuit last year come forward and say that they think the Ork's are third tier.

Backfire wrote:To clarify: it's more catching them than hitting them, that's the problem. Anyway, it's not such a big deal since he can just try to kill my infantry or suits.

"Try" being the operative word. At least if you're doing it right.

methoderik wrote:And again sorry you are wrong. Tournament Results for the past year or two have been posted, and I am fairly confident that if you took the time to look you would find that codex Orks are anything buy "tier 3". But argue away that they are not until you are blue in face if that is your prerogative, you seem content doing it.

I didn't say they were tier 3. I said they were noob hammers. I'd be more interested to see the lists those Ork armies went up against and some bat reps than I would to just blithely put stock in the results table. If they were consistently doing well against awesome lists played by awesome players I'd go out right now and buy an Ork Battleforce. As it stands the only Ork tourney batrep I've seen involved an Ork player who'd steamrolled most of his other opposition being tonked by a man with a pure Grey Knights list. Hardly screams "uber-competetive" to me.

Backfire wrote:Uh...what "tailoring"

See above.

Orks exactly need against Tau? What I fear if I'm playing Orks:

-Bikes

Seriously? Warbikerz? Or do you mean Nob Bikerz, because you know you can just Melta/ Railgun right through them.

-Large shoota squads

If you're having problems with Shoota Boyz you're doing something wrong. I'd postulate "running lots of Troops choices" is that thing.

-Deffkoptas

Why exactly?

-KFF Battlewagons

Needs moar Railgun.

-Lootas

Lootas I'll give you against Tau. They're a 3-squad maximum though.

Hmm, lets see. Unit of 3 Missile pod suits rains death on turboboosting Nob Bikers. We are kind and assume that all six shots hit:

Markelights and BS4, why wouldn't they?

-5 will wound
-2 will get through cover saves
-Painboy will save 1 wound.

So your suits, costing 160+ points or so, caused one (1) wound on the Nob Bikerz.

Why are you only firing the Missile Pods?

Woo hoo. Or if it's regular Bikers (MEQ or otherwise), you killed two, which is bit better,

BkCSes get FnP too.

but remaining can still assault you next turn and will probably cause much more damage than you did.

Not if you're Doin' It Right!

quote=Frank Fugger
Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

What?

What I said.

Because even the Almighty Railgun really isn't guaranteed to stop a Battlewagon every time?

Which is why God gave us Melta-Pirhanas. And 5 Railguns.

Probability for Railhead to get destroy/immobilize result is somewhere in 25% range, half that if the Wagon gets cover save...

Ohnoes I lost a Railgun. Good job I have more than one, rly.

So now the Suits are shooting up infantry?

No no, they're shooting whatever I deem needs shooting. In the case of Bikes or Boyz, it'd likely be Bikes.

And of course there might also be 'Koptas,

Ohnoes.

or Trukks,

Ohnoes * more.

or Kans...

Yeah, those are scary. Not, honestly. They are.

What?

40kenthusiast wrote:How is this debate still going 8 pages later?

Because this is dakka, where we could have a 10 page debate about what color the sky above Yak's house currently is.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I didn't say they were tier 3. I said they were noob hammers. I'd be more interested to see the lists those Ork armies went up against and some bat reps than I would to just blithely put stock in the results table. If they were consistently doing well against awesome lists played by awesome players I'd go out right now and buy an Ork Battleforce. As it stands the only Ork tourney batrep I've seen involved an Ork player who'd steamrolled most of his other opposition being tonked by a man with a pure Grey Knights list. Hardly screams "uber-competetive" to me.

If you would go back through the past year or two's results you would find that to be true.

And really, is there a reason you have to be such a dick? Arrogant posting and calling everybody noobs or insinuating that they are inferior players has been done to death here on Dakka already. Got to love those Keyboard Commandos...

methoderik wrote:And really, is there a reason you have to be such a dick? Arrogant posting and calling everybody noobs or insinuating that they are inferior players has been done to death here on Dakka already.

OT, but hey. That's a bit unfair to me, I feel. Excepting the first few posts in this thread I don't feel I've been a dick at all; I'm stating my opinion. I'm doing it in a forthright way, but I'm not swearing or being abusive towards anyone.

I think what's actually happening is you're taking what I'm saying personally. Wether that's because you have some emotional attachment to the Ork codex and it's illusion of competetiveness, or wether you just don't like being argued with, I don't know. Either way, taking frivolous internets discussions to heart is not a good thing, especially considering I'm never going to agree with you without being given a compelling reason to do so.

Got to love those Keyboard Commandos...

Ohnoes I've been called out on the internets.

Just to put things back on track.

I think it will happen like this. Orks are still number 1 or 2 as of now. However they will get bumped down to 3 or less if a good amount of people bring guard THAT are equipped to handle most of the ork tricks and tactics. PBS and heavy ordnance hurts orks in most of the competitive ork builds. These MIGHT be a common site with guard players, as orks are the army to beat right now. If that is the case those ork players not willing to adapt or plan ahead will get beat. Those that adapt MIGHT REMAIN top 1 or 2 due to the high amount of good to great builds available in the ork codex. As the orks are such a contender and many people play them, expect guard to do well vs them and game plan for them.

In the meta game it will probably knock orks out of contention. However if there are lots of chaos and space marines expect the guard to finish in the middle next to the orks. At a high level of competition it is difficult to make a guard list that can stomp nob bikers and deal with horde marines easily. Guard can make great builds but hard to make a ULTRA competitive list at high levels that can deal with everything. At the moment they seem geared to beat the top lists with all their new goodies. I believe they will cause the great meta game shift of '09. Causing the new top armies to differ from 2 lash, 2 nob bikers and the like. I don't expect guard to do all that well. But I do expect them to wreak the current meta game and hopfully even the playing field.

Just my 2 cents...You may now continue the argument.

Alerian wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:

Alerian wrote:Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Because they have units that can deal with both infantry and armour at range and Orks don't. Because they don't rely on being able to mongle forward and charge to be effective, whereas Orks do. Because... yeah, because the Codex is better than the Ork one.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

I love how the reply to every challenge laid at the feet of Orky awesomeness is a tailored list.

Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

Frank...how do you see the list that I posted as tailored?

That is not a "tailored list" that I mentioned. It is a good standard 1750 list.

20-30 Lootas make a mess out of ANYTHING that is not AV14.
3 BWs w/ Boarding Planks filled with Shoota boys and Nobs w/PK, protected by a KFF are a threat to every unit in the game.
Snikrot with Kommandos? Never leave home without him. He is just that good.
More boys on foot to protect/ screen the Lootas? Why not.

I don't care if it facing MEQ, GEQ, or Tau that is a strong list. If you weren't so stuck on "Tau > Orks! Raarrr!" you would see that.

Oh yeah, it is a fairly balanced list too...and it isn't even running a unit of Nobs.

Yes, it has trouble with AV 14 all around, but that is about it.

I'd happily face that list in DoW with my MechDar. I believe, irregarding player skill and luck as factors, that I could roll it by turn 6. KPs especially I'd dominate. Spearhead I'd probably rape it even quicker.

All right kids, cut it out. There are ways to debate points politely, and the whole "being forthright" argument does not fly if you're being rude (it's been tried before).

You're going to disagree with people; this IS Dakka. Just be polite about it. You can be up-front with someone and still not be a jerk.

Sha1emade speaks true, for this is why I refuse to mech my orks. They still beat most armys, I only loose to mechvet gaurd but do ok against most other armys even LR lists. If I tailored it to this metagame I would loose like twice as much or more to armys I beat right now. I loose 2 out of 10 now, so what (the game is supposed to be fun and this makes me a better general). like a previous poster said rock, paper , scissors to an extint (a good player can help negate this). If one army beat all other armys the game would be broken and everyone would buy that army.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:
I didn't say they were tier 3. I said they were noob hammers. I'd be more interested to see the lists those Ork armies went up against and some bat reps than I would to just blithely put stock in the results table. If they were consistently doing well against awesome lists played by awesome players I'd go out right now and buy an Ork Battleforce. As it stands the only Ork tourney batrep I've seen involved an Ork player who'd steamrolled most of his other opposition being tonked by a man with a pure Grey Knights list. Hardly screams "uber-competetive" to me.

If you would go back through the past year or two's results you would find that to be true.

And really, is there a reason you have to be such a dick? Arrogant posting and calling everybody noobs or insinuating that they are inferior players has been done to death here on Dakka already. Got to love those Keyboard Commandos...

Actually, why do you have to be so bothered. Let the results speak. I personally like this :

tastytaste wrote:He is just another 40k player with a big mouth.

He is probably another player who can type but cant play.

Grimgob wrote:Sha1emade speaks true, for this is why I refuse to mech my orks. They still beat most armys, I only loose to mechvet gaurd but do ok against most other armys even LR lists.

And here we have the root of the problem (and the key for this whole thread)...it's irrelevant how well orks did in the past, because the metagame has changed substantially recently. All sorts of threads on Dakka have popped up recently talking about how mech is now the way to go, which wasn't the case previously.

More importantly, though, the new guard codex presents major problems to all the previous top tier lists. They can pack enough templates and blasts to hurt horde orks while toting enough lascannons/sacrifice melta to stop mech with enough AV14 to shut-down their ranged firepower. Add to this the fact that all the mechanization hurts lash lists and the weapons are also strong enough to kill MEQs and you have a problem.

I think orks can still demolish many lists/armies out there, but I think there are going to be an increasing number of armies they face that are going to give them serious problems. Lootas are great and all, but in my last couple of games I've noticed they aren't good enough to guarantee kills on AV12-13 vehicles, especially if any cover is involved.

Let's take the IG list I'm playing around with right now. It's not great, but it's got most of the basics covered:

CCS with 2 melta guns, chimera with hull heavy flamer

DH Elite inq with incinerator, 3 mystics and vet with flamer (rides in a vendetta)

Marbo

3 vendettas (all separate)

3 vet squads with 3 meltaguns, chimeras with hull heavy flamers

3 leman russes (separate) with hull lascannon, plasma sponsons

Against horde orks, I'll probably hit the lootas first with everything I've got, then hit the horde. The number of blasts (4 large and 6 small) makes it tough for them to get close enough to assault me (which is where they need to be to really hurt me), and the templates (6) hurt them badly when they get there.

Mech orks have a similar problem, as they, too, need to get close. The meltas hurt vehicles as they get near, while the vendettas can move along the flanks with their scout move. Drive up the middle and expose your flanks? Charge the vendettas and slow the assault on the main body of my army? Once cracked, the squads inside are small, and either fragile (regular orks) or very expensive (nobs/bosses), limiting the number of enemy units I have to worry about and letting me concentrate my firepower.

I'll not raise his name, but I recently took my first real in-depth look at the ork codex in response to somebody's challenge to make the best possible 2000 point ork list. There were several builds that jumped out immediately that would completely demolish a large number of armies out there, but would in turn be very vulnerable to other builds, but trying to develop a list capable of having a decent shot against any army piloted by an equal player was very difficult, and that's not the case with most other armies.

Grimgob wrote:If one army beat all other armys the game would be broken and everyone would buy that army.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I didn't say they were tier 3. I said they were noob hammers. I'd be more interested to see the lists those Ork armies went up against and some bat reps than I would to just blithely put stock in the results table. If they were consistently doing well against awesome lists played by awesome players I'd go out right now and buy an Ork Battleforce. As it stands the only Ork tourney batrep I've seen involved an Ork player who'd steamrolled most of his other opposition being tonked by a man with a pure Grey Knights list. Hardly screams "uber-competetive" to me.

Fair enough - so where are the tourney battlereports from Tau players who have won major tournaments lately....?

Frank Fugger wrote:
Seriously? Warbikerz? Or do you mean Nob Bikerz, because you know you can just Melta/ Railgun right through them.

Ok, you Melt them. Presumably this means Piranhas since you didn't want to take Melta for the suits. Three Piranhas get two hits, we assume two wounds, cover saves one, result, one dead Nob. A Biker Nob costs what, 50 points? Three Piranhas will cost ~210 points...

If you're having problems with Shoota Boyz you're doing something wrong. I'd postulate "running lots of Troops choices" is that thing.

They can easily dakka my Suits & Kroot so yes, there is something to be worried.

-Deffkoptas

Why exactly?

They can assault or shoot my suits or tanks. It's not rokkit science.

-KFF Battlewagons

Needs moar Railgun.

Now hold on there, just minute ago you were Railgunning the Nob Bikerz?

Hmm, lets see. Unit of 3 Missile pod suits rains death on turboboosting Nob Bikers. We are kind and assume that all six shots hit:

Markelights and BS4, why wouldn't they?

OK, Markerlights. You apparently don't want to use Stealth teams, Sky Rays or such so your only source of Markerlights are Pathfinders. Meaning, since you already included Piranhas, that you have maximum two teams of them. Meaning, you can increase BS and negate cover from only two enemy units per turn. Rest, they get their saves against Railguns and BS3 Fireknifes. And about Pathfinders...I like them, and they can be very effective, but they are also fragile, static unit - not a good combination!

Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

What Markerlights and SMS have to do with each other? I don't get it. Or do you mean Seeker missiles?

Sha1emade wrote:I think it will happen like this. Orks are still number 1 or 2 as of now. However they will get bumped down to 3 or less if a good amount of people bring guard THAT are equipped to handle most of the ork tricks and tactics.

A Guard list doesn't have to be specifically equipped to handle "Ork tricks". Very few do. You might have to do it with Tyranids but otherwise most Codexes don't need to adopt a specific approach to beat Orks.

PBS and heavy ordnance hurts orks in most of the competitive ork builds.

PBS are shut down by a single DH/ WH Psychic Hood or Runes of Warding and heavy ordnance is a threat to any army.

Iorek wrote:All right kids, cut it out. There are ways to debate points politely, and the whole "being forthright" argument does not fly if you're being rude (it's been tried before).

Show me where I'm being personally rude to people.

Orkish wrote:Actually, why do you have to be so bothered. Let the results speak.

If the Ork players are beating good players with good lists then that's fine. The problem is they aren't. They're beating poor players who bring Calgar to tournaments because they think his mere presence on the table awards them placement points.

I personally like this :

tastytaste wrote:He is just another 40k player with a big mouth.

He is probably another player who can type but cant play.

Great success! Dzien Dobry!

Grimaldi wrote:I'll not raise his name, but I recently took my first real in-depth look at the ork codex in response to somebody's challenge to make the best possible 2000 point ork list. There were several builds that jumped out immediately that would completely demolish a large number of armies out there, but would in turn be very vulnerable to other builds, but trying to develop a list capable of having a decent shot against any army piloted by an equal player was very difficult, and that's not the case with most other armies.

The crux of my entire argument. In fact I'd go further; a lot of Ork builds will handle two or three kinds of standard builds well, but will be completely flummoxed by anything else and against lean competetive lists, from which all the useless crud has been trimmed, they'll fail hard.

Go prove yourself at the table noob.

Orkish wrote:Go prove yourself at the table noob.

OK. Are you anywhere near Liverpool or Glasgow?

see you at Ard Boyz, noob

Ard Boys is in the US. Are you in the US?

9 pages of this ^ . Fascinating.

No no, the other 9 pages are epic. Srsly.

Lukus83 wrote:9 pages of this ^ . Fascinating.

There were actually some good pages in the middle..

Internet posturing and keyboard bravado have taken over.

If anyone wishes to debate the actually points and not compare various body part sizes, please feel free to do so in another thread.

CLOSED.