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Teh Innerwebz haz spoken! My Orks are rubbish.

Guess I'm just not smart enough to have figured it out yet. Better stop deceiving myself and give in to the greater wisdom that is Dakka. How could my dice and models have deceived me so... being competitive when they should be losing? I'm obviously ignorant.

Or maybe it's the people you play who haven't yet figured out that your Orks are rubbish? Once they do, you're buggered >_<

They're a fun army, but I wouldn't take them to a tournemnt or anything unless I was expecting to see a load of soft lists I could trounce just by having more models than he has shots. Even without spamming Raiders I can take my pure Grey Knights army against Orks and, at the very least, expect a sporting draw; and I know for a fact that my pure Grey Knights army ain't competetive in the slightest.

The Green Git wrote:Teh Innerwebz haz spoken! My Orks are rubbish.

Guess I'm just not smart enough to have figured it out yet. Better stop deceiving myself and give in to the greater wisdom that is Dakka. How could my dice and models have deceived me so... being competitive when they should be losing? I'm obviously ignorant.

Don't be an idiot. No-one said orks are rubbish, just that they aren't good. If you don't know the difference then you must be ignorant...

The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

No, Orks have difficulty with AV13, and AV12 as well, just a fair bit less trouble. Now, if Burnas still had that lovely 2d6 penetration...

Hollismason wrote:The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis.

Keep it polite, Elessar. Click Rule #1 in my sig.

Frank Fugger wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis.

What Ork players? Where? Are they playing Apocalypse maybe? As soon as someone presents a reasonable way for Orks to reliably kill ONE AV14 tank, then I'll concede the point. I'm not aiming to offend anyone, but if you can't provide even anecdotal evidence then why do you say I'm wrong?

BatReps where Orks beat a proper list with AV14 is where it's at. Either post one, or link one. I'll eat my hat.

Elessar wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis.

What Ork players? Where? Are they playing Apocalypse maybe? As soon as someone presents a reasonable way for Orks to reliably kill ONE AV14 tank, then I'll concede the point. I'm not aiming to offend anyone, but if you can't provide even anecdotal evidence then why do you say I'm wrong?

BatReps where Orks beat a proper list with AV14 is where it's at. Either post one, or link one. I'll eat my hat.

Read the whole thing properly.

He said:
"Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list."

I said:
"It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis."

If you want to see crumby Ork lists I'm not going to link them. Instead, I'll suggest that you search the Army List forum for the word "Ork"; every single one you see there under 2000pts will get rolled by AV14 spam. But then again, you knew that already didn't you? ;D

Apologies, I misunderstood - silly me

I've really gotta find a way to convince others of the same thing...maybe if I play my Orks against a series of other lists and do BatReps of me losing every time...they'll probably say it's just me...as if.

The number one thing people need to realize about Orks is that they have never needed Nob Bikerz, Snikrot, and any other crutch unit to win games. The list overall is solid, and there are very few truly bad units in the list. Any decent player with a plan can win with Orks.

Having said that, already we are seeing a shift in Ork players in my meta-game to lists that include a lot of Battlewagons filled with Nobz. I already know that a local player is taking a list consisting of Mega-armored Nobz in Battlewagon with Ghaz, Warboss with Regular Nobz in a Battlewagons, and Nob bikers supported by a bunch of boyz in trucks. Extremely fast, hard to stop, and can out assault most other armies.

What do I know, I am just a Vulkan player who faces Orks, IG, and Eldar regularly.

As a Vulkan player who faces Orks regularly, I'd invite you to try throwing one or two Land Raiders or Crusaders into your lists and seeing how the Orks deal with them. It doesn't necessarily need to be a tailored AV14 list; something that includes the LRs in a competetive non-cheesy way. You might also like to put an Ironclad or two in there as well.

Basically, no matter what you do, if you run AV14 and 13 vehicles in such a way that ignoring them and chaqsing other units is not an option and destroying them is necessary for your opponent to achieve victory then the only thing an Ork player can do to handle you is tailor his list. Most other armies in 40K will rip Raider-spam lists to pieces, and can cope well enough with competetive lists that use AV14 as more than just a big shed for their Termies to get out of, but Orks can't. That's why they suck.

Ork armies have the ability to mechanize incredibly well add in they can have a Armour 14 transport for less than 120 points comparable to the wave serpent and you have something pretty nasty.

I think we will see more deffrollas in general once people realize how awesome they are at not only dealing with monstrous creatures but with vehicles.


Multiple Battlewagons with one or two in the back field with a 4+ invulnerable from a Mech on board and having Shoota inside along with KillKannon is disgusting. Throw in a FU nob squad as a troop and you have something that is pretty overall disgusting.

I apologize, in general, I forgot, somehow, in all my previous posts, to refer back to Drummerholt's post on page 1, in which he claimed sending Ghaz with Snikrot was a good move - it's illegal, of course. I'm sure we all know, but I should've brought it up when I intended.

As for Orks mechanising well? Yes, if the battlewagn was 30 points cheaper base, and was available to Boyz, Lootas and Burnas - then Orks'd be top of the pile.

Until then though, I disagree. Powerful as that can be - it's easy to avoid, and too expensive for what it achieves. Also, Deff Rollas are the single biggest unresolved rules issue in the game. I think they can be used on vehicles - but a lot of players won't allow it. If one of those is your TO...well, tough.

There isnt alot of strong powerful choices out of the Heavy Support Section of the Ork Codex , you have dreads and kans thats about it.

You think? I think Heavy Support is probably the best section of the Dex...

Elessar wrote:Don't be an idiot. No-one said orks are rubbish, just that they aren't good. If you don't know the difference then you must be ignorant...

That pretty much sums it up... They're not rubbish... just not any good. Oh, and if a player loses to Orks, he's rubbish too, either his skillz or his list making abilities.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

PLONK!

I'm not even going to rise to that.

Its a incredibly strong army its just people got shoehorned basically into believing that only one set up was viable as it stood out as the cream of da crop.

Which is still is to a degree , sure imperial guard with their multiple template can harm them.

Ultimately though they tear ass through most armies regardless.

Actually, I'm starting to think I've been catastrophizing... Yes, orks are basically up a creek against av14 spam, but only against raider-spam, now that I think about it. Against just about any other AV14 target, you're looking at a rear-armour of 10-11 tops.

With the shift to mech-spam and the resultant rise in melta, I wonder if orks really even have much to fear against raiderspam. It seems like in a tourney setting, the one build that orks fear (landraider spam) will just get destroyed by all the melta. Basically, if you build a strong mech ork list and manage to avoid raiderspam in the early rounds, how likely are you to see it later on?

Not through my Eldar, or any good Eldar build I've seen. Stelek's point, IMO, is that Orks aren't as good as Eldar, Tau, Chaos etc, not that they aren't better than DH, Necrons, each other, or rubbish lists in general.

dumbuket wrote:Actually, I'm starting to think I've been catastrophizing... Yes, orks are basically up a creek against av14 spam, but only against raider-spam, now that I think about it. Against just about any other AV14 target, you're looking at a rear-armour of 10-11 tops.

With the shift to mech-spam and the resultant rise in melta, I wonder if orks really even have much to fear against raiderspam. It seems like in a tourney setting, the one build that orks fear (landraider spam) will just get destroyed by all the melta. Basically, if you build a strong mech ork list and manage to avoid raiderspam in the early rounds, how likely are you to see it later on?

But it's not just raider spam lists. Two land raiders can wreck an ork army's day at 1850 or 2k. How many marine players won't take them, regardless of the meta-game?

Do you really want to take a chance on not meeting one of the most popular armies out there 'early' in a tournament that could just wreck your day?

I'm not saying orks can't win, but until it gets officially faq'ed that deff rollas can work in a tank ram, it could be pretty dicey to play orks atm.

As an Ork player, 1-2 Land Raiders won't wreck my army. This is a reasonable number to be able to reliably deal with. 3+ and I start having issues, but this is heavily dependent on the parameters of the mission.

I pretty much play tourneys for the most part these days and one of the things I actually don't see are 3+ Land Raider lists. Aside from Ork armies, there is an abundance of Melta/Multi Melta weapons that can quickly sink 750+ points of an army. If I do draw up against a Land Raider spam army, that's the luck of the draw so to speak.

From my experience, I concede the point Orks have difficulty dealing with armor 14 (I use 1 Deff Rolla in the army as the rule flip flops wherever I play; I don't plan my army around Deff Rollas vs. vehicles), but by no means does this one fact spell doom for an Ork army in a tourney setting. YMMV.

But, for fun sake, I'll keep track of 2-3 tourneys I'll be playing in with my Orks this month. For the Necro, I know Space Marines are the predominant army. We'll see what kind of armies I face off against.

a. Ard Boyz 11th (North Carolina)
b. RTT 18th (Florida)
c. Necro 25-26th (Florida)

Appreciated.

Elessar wrote:I apologize, in general, I forgot, somehow, in all my previous posts, to refer back to Drummerholt's post on page 1, in which he claimed sending Ghaz with Snikrot was a good move - it's illegal, of course. I'm sure we all know, but I should've brought it up when I intended.

As for Orks mechanising well? Yes, if the battlewagn was 30 points cheaper base, and was available to Boyz, Lootas and Burnas - then Orks'd be top of the pile.

Until then though, I disagree. Powerful as that can be - it's easy to avoid, and too expensive for what it achieves. Also, Deff Rollas are the single biggest unresolved rules issue in the game. I think they can be used on vehicles - but a lot of players won't allow it. If one of those is your TO...well, tough.

Wait, why is it illegal?

Ambush:
"Snikrot's mastery of guerilla tactics is legendary. If the owning player chooses, Snikrot and his unit may be held in Reserve. When Snikrot and his unit become available from Reserve, they may move on from any table edge."

This doesn't seem anything like infiltrate, I don't see why he'd lose this ability if an IC was attached - it says Snikrot and his unit afterall. I remember Stelek made post about using Snikrot/Grotsnik/Ghaz to outflank like that. It was a long time ago tho, so feel free to point me @ whatever FAQ has clarified this as illegal.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/01/ork-ard-boyz.html

It's a unit special rule, so it's lost hen an IC joins. Stelek's good, but he's not god. He makes mistakes too - he also thought the Mandrake/Webway Portal combo was good (admittedly, so did I, until I thought about it for a few mins)
No FAQ is required, BRB holds the answer.

Ask Gwar! if you don't believe me.

Doesn't it have asterisks after the ones that lose their ability? He will keep his ability as it also includes the unit he is joined with in its wording.

dumbuket wrote:With the shift to mech-spam and the resultant rise in melta, I wonder if orks really even have much to fear against raiderspam. It seems like in a tourney setting, the one build that orks fear (landraider spam) will just get destroyed by all the melta. Basically, if you build a strong mech ork list and manage to avoid raiderspam in the early rounds, how likely are you to see it later on?

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner. Thank you dumbuket for thinking. Sure, Land Raiders will give an Ork army difficulties... and it will die a hideous death to a Melta Spam IG army. What are the chances of seeing THAT at a tourney?

Sarigar wrote:As an Ork player, 1-2 Land Raiders won't wreck my army. This is a reasonable number to be able to reliably deal with. 3+ and I start having issues, but this is heavily dependent on the parameters of the mission.

Sarigar, you must be mistaken. If the Ork player cannot kill the Land Raiders he is rubbish, the game is lost and you might as well not unpack your army. Dakka hath Spoken!

/sarcasm

Seriously though, another thinking man here. There IS more to the mission than killing the Land Raider. Guess what? If I shake your Land Raider, immobilize it or blow weapons off it that's just as good as killing it in most cases. Sure it takes more shots but then again, not ever mission is Kill Points.

There's more to a game than just a strict match up of one army against another, one unit against another. Tournaments amplify this truth. A player must plan to face ANY army, not just Orks. Take those three Land Raiders, please. I want to see the Eldar/Dark Eldar/IG/Tau player's face light up when he sees three easy Kill Points in his crosshairs.

number9dream wrote:This doesn't seem anything like infiltrate, I don't see why he'd lose this ability if an IC was attached - it says Snikrot and his unit afterall. I remember Stelek made post about using Snikrot/Grotsnik/Ghaz to outflank like that. It was a long time ago tho, so feel free to point me @ whatever FAQ has clarified this as illegal.l

Oh man... you *said his name*. Whatever you do, don't say it again and don't look in any mirrors. He might not have heard you.

Methinks 'Ard Boyz this weekend will speak for itself and breathe another day or two of life into this thread before killing it off with the results of the weekend.


WAAAAAAGGHHH!!!

Green Git seems to be taking the news that Orks aren't the top dog on the block a little too personally.