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I don't think that Orks should be able to do EVERYTHING at the same time, but they should be able to do anything in particular if they focus on it.

They need some anti-tank. Some melta, some AP1.

Elessar wrote:DH armies are weaker than Orks.

Also, Wierdboyz are the worst unit, even Flash Gitz are better then the Possessed of the Ork Codex.

Of course DH are weaker than Orks. That was beside the point. I was merely showing how the metagame might make me put them on the back burner because of everyone gearing up for LR's. In fact my DH would probably eat most ork players due to the LR's and tons of shots

And I did forget the Wierdboyz which does bode ill for them. Ok, 2 useless units in the codex from day one. If they could choose their spell for the entire game or affected the force org somehow like the other two they might be taken. But still only 2 useless units that'll never see use in a codex. Now check all the other codexes out there and count how many units you never see then tell me Orks have a bad codex.

@Dash

That's the point though. They are bad at high AV anti-tank. And even then it's only against landraiders. everything else has rear armor which most Ork armies will get to and tear apart.

I think it's still the most solid overall codex out right now and still one of the top competitors in any event when run with a good player.

Actually, there's plenty of people that find Weirdboyz and Flashgitz to be useful. I think they're best in combination, with a Warphead accompanying a unit of Flashgitz. You have to think of them as uber-Shootas, despite also having the close combat abilities of Nobz.

You're right abut how Gitz should be used, but that doesn't make them good. It's possible to use Swooping Hawks well, doesn't make them playable.

Hulksmash wrote:Stormboyz are amazing. Yes they do cost twice as much as a normal boy but that price is reduced some when you consider your normally mounting said boyz in a transport.

The transport argument doesn't mean anything in the context of the comparison. Transports are a single cost item that can give the entire ork unit a free life where they must kill the transport instead of the actual unit. The comparison is also not meaningful when comparing it to a group of 30 footslogging boyz which are a bargain in comparison both because of a high mob rule leadership save as well as 50% off per boy.

They are a guarenteed second turn charge, sometimes first turn.

Which is an awful strategy for a group of 20 stormboyz when your opponent's army is completely mechanized like the majority of the metagame right now. You charge a rhino or chimera, blow it up, and then watch your 280 point unit get wiped out the following turn. Stormboyz can't even reliably dive into cover because of dangerous terrain tests.

My stormboyz have never let me down but then again I field 2 units of 16 w/pk nobs supported by a large 12-man bike squad.The bike squads are amazing for the amount of shots and damage they can take. They also are big enough to get any vehicle a cover save except for battlewagons.

The bike squads are probably running off the table after a single round of shooting since unlike nob bikers they don't have ablative wounds. Shooting bike big shootas at chimeras or rhinos doesn't do anything for you. You can argue that you can rely on fire support to assist in taking out vehicles prior to getting to charge lines but then you've run out of points, hence my argument that these units should cost less so they actually see play in a tournament quality list.

The biker / stormboyz is a cool list concept (bikers leading with 4+ cover and providing cover to stormboyz behind them) but that doesn't make it competitive.

The only thing being "exploited" is our lack of anti-AV14 but like the above poster said a lot of people are gearing up to take out LR's. Personally my GK's might start sitting the sidelines for a little while depending on my next few tournies because of all anti-LR guns out there. Every army shouldn't be able to do everything extremely well but that's what some people think Orks should be able to do.

We have more to worry about than just AV 14 LR spam I assure you. IG curb stomps 95% of ork lists right now quite easily with only AR 12. The few lists that can hang still have a poor 40/60 matchup.

Hulksmash wrote:Every army shouldn't be able to do everything extremely well but that's what some people think Orks should be able to do.

No. What people think Orks should be able to do is more than one thing. Look at it this way; does the thought of a shooty Ork army bother you particularly?

As a further addendum to what I said before, being able to deal with AV14 doesn't mean Orks are a "competetive" Codex. It's not just that they have problems dealing with AV14; they have problems dealing with anything that they can't tie down and assault, because that's all they do. Well done, you've tailored your army to beat down Land Raiders; round two, here's a Sisters list with a load of Melta/ template Rhinos and 12 Faith Points. And Seraphim, just for funsies.

Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

Emergency Disembark = what you just said doesn't work.

A topic for another thread, but Emergency Disembark is one of my biggest pet peeves about the game. "You must disembark in the following fashion... [blah blah doors blah blah].. but if you can't, then don't worry about it, just pretend we never told you the above rules and put your stuff on the table somewhere nearby".

I've seen a squad of Flash Gitz get way more kills than the squad of Lootas did in the same battle. Lootas were nicely placed in cover, with targets throughout the game. Flash Gitz were in a Looted Wagon (no upgrades apart from a Skorcha and Big Shoota), and were largely ignored (AT fire was concentrated on the Battlewagon full of Nobz). They took out light transports and heavy infantry without much trouble, before they even got in to close combat.

They aren't necessarily optimal units, especially given the competition there is for Heavy Support slots, but they can certainly work for casual play, as a different kind of Nobz mob.

If snazzguns came with S6, Assault 2 built in, I could see loading FG in a transport for some mobile firepower. Still dunno if that'd be as competitive as other HS options, but that loadout would let them pop Rhinos and Chimera side armor. But at their current price, no thank you.

Just got back into 5th so I didn't know about emergency disembark. I looked but didn't see this in the rulebook though.

EDIT: Nevermind just found it. Pretty sleazy but they still couldn't do anything the rest of the turn. Pretty huge because they would subsequently be shot then assaulted.

@Kevin

I build my list to work together. I don't unit by unit the performance of it. My list is synergized extremely well with a lot of fast moving units that support each other. You can't willy nilly state that things like stormboyz and bikes are useless as they aren't. Units need other units.
I haven't got curbed stomped by any guard armies yet but then again I've only gotten in 4 games against the new dex.

@Fugger

I have no problem with a shooty ork army and in fact love the idea. Most of my previous lists were built out of a ton of shots that I could re-roll. Orks make an amazing shooty army right now. they just don't have melta's or ap1 which does make it a little harder but doesn't make them a lower tier army.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kevin

I build my list to work together. I don't unit by unit the performance of it. My list is synergized extremely well with a lot of fast moving units that support each other. You can't willy nilly state that things like stormboyz and bikes are useless as they aren't. Units need other units.

Are you telling me your list is comprised entirely of warbikes, stormboyz and fast moving vehicles? Is there any fire support like kannons or lootas at all? If not it's a poor list for competitive tournament play.

I'm not declaring this willy nilly. I basing this on months of playtesting against competitive army lists. Stormboyz were problematic then when I first tried using them and they haven't improved. A 280 point 20 man boy unit that has difficulty getting cover saves in a list without adequate fire support is going to get crushed. If you are relying on bikes for your cover saves that's clever but unfortunately the bikes are probably running off the table in 1-2 turns because of a low model count. If your stormboyz run into a wall of vehicle spam in their assault phase feel free to pick them up off the table the following turn after they are templated and pied to death by the remaining vehicles that close in on them.

JGrand wrote:Just got back into 5th so I didn't know about emergency disembark. I looked but didn't see this in the rulebook though.

EDIT: Nevermind just found it. Pretty sleazy but they still couldn't do anything the rest of the turn. Pretty huge because they would subsequently be shot then assaulted.

how do you figure? We are talking about you killing a LR in CC. You pop it, guys pile out. If they have to emergency disembark they cant do anything on your turn. My turn rolls around and they are free to move and assault you. And I think most people will agree that th/ss termies are at least as good if not much better than nobz due to their slowed invul save. At the very least they will probably wipe the squad while dying.

Well, it says they cannot do anything that turn. I assume turn meant a full turn (aka yours and opponents). It seems like being shocked/stunned/stumbling out was the punishment for being surrounded and having to somehow make an exit. Hence they can't do anything and get charged and shot. I could be wrong though.

JGrand wrote:Well, it says they cannot do anything that turn. I assume turn meant a full turn (aka yours and opponents). It seems like being shocked/stunned/stumbling out was the punishment for being surrounded and having to somehow make an exit. Hence they can't do anything and get charged and shot. I could be wrong though.

Nope they are just pinned for the remainder of whatever turn they had to emergency disembark. I think the only point of that part of the rule is to prevent people from abusing it by using it to get out of the back of a land raider or something after tank shocking into a large mob or some other scenario of the sort.

Kevin Nash wrote:Shooting bike big shootas at chimeras or rhinos doesn't do anything for you.

Not so sure about that. Given enough hits you'll pop a Rhino or Chimera with a decent sized biker mob if you get to the side or rear and thanks to the 5th edition rules I can still assault the unit that just got dumped out...

Kevin Nash wrote:We have more to worry about than just AV 14 LR spam I assure you. IG curb stomps 95% of ork lists right now quite easily with only AR 12. The few lists that can hang still have a poor 40/60 matchup.

I've played my share of Mech IG and curb stomping is nowhere near my experiences. But then again, I don't run a Green Tide.

This year's Ard Boyz is very much going to be a Rock, Paper, Scissors affair it seems. I'm just looking forward to all those LR spam lists meeting up with those IG Melta spam lists. It's going to be a blood bath.

JGrand wrote:Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

No, all you have to do is charge, surround the exits, Destroy or Wreck the vehicle, then Bam - one squad down, more to go.

Easier said than done.

Frank Fugger wrote:

JGrand wrote:Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

No, all you have to do is charge, surround the exits, Destroy or Wreck the vehicle, then Bam - one squad down, more to go.

Easier said than done.

forget the exits, you have to surround the entire vehicle. And hope you dont blow it up on a 6, cause then I get to use the footprint of the tank as well to deploy into. They made killing passengers aboard a transport difficult these days so its not something I would rely on happening.


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Frank Fugger wrote:

JGrand wrote:Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

No, all you have to do is charge, surround the exits, Destroy or Wreck the vehicle, then Bam - one squad down, more to go.

Easier said than done.

your over simplifying it. If this is a LR and a terminator squad we are talking about and he does manage to surround the tank and blow them all up you are looking at 1/3 of most standard sized lists gone. Not something I would just say, oh well I have more guys, too.

Seer Councils on Jetbikes fear exactly 2 Ork Units - Lootas, and Burnas. Since only one gets used, no biggie - the other can be CC'd to death.

It's not just AV14 you know. I think that needs to be made more clear.

Elessar wrote:Seer Councils on Jetbikes fear exactly 2 Ork Units - Lootas, and Burnas. Since only one gets used, no biggie - the other can be CC'd to death.

It's not just AV14 you know. I think that needs to be made more clear.

True, but seer council/jetbike spam is a unit that many lists need to fear.

It's solid.

Of course, but Eldar have an answer, IG have several answers, WH have answers, even SM have answers, Chaos do...only Orks don't, out of the 'top' lists. Thus their mention.

Orks do have an answer to Land Raider spam, it's just that people won't take them. Something I like about 5th edition is that you can actually Glance vehicles to death via Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized damage effects. Tank Bustas, Zzap Guns, Shokk Attack Guns, and even Weirdboyz can, in sufficient numbers, inconvenience Land Raiders long enough to either produce a Destroyed (Wrecked) result, or kill them the old fashioned way.

Remember that Tankbustas not only have Tankhammers, which work on non-vehicles at I3 on the charge, but they all have Tankbusta Bombs for 2D6 penetration krak grenades. Combine that with Rokkits, and then two more units, and you have something shooty. Screen them with Grotz for a better cover save than a Kustom Force Field, and you can shut down a Land Raider assault, or even destroy it.

Zzap Gun-wise, they may not automatically hit any more, but their longer range and automatic Shaken on glancing and penetrating hits lets them shut down vehicle-based shooting, and Ammo Runts lets them capitalize on high-Strength shooting. And they're dirt cheap.

So here's the plan:

Mekboy with Shokk Attack Gun
Mekboy with Shokk Attack Gun

3x Tankbustas

3x Grots (30/3)

3x Boyz (30) with 3x Rokkits

3x Zzap Batteries (extra krew, Ammo Runts)

No, because that army can't beat ANYTHING else.

Also, each Zzap Battery (you roll once for each Battery, remember) has a 56% chance of negating it's own shot against a LR - and even at S10 only a 50-50 chance to damage. I don't know how to MathHammer out percentages including random 2d6 strength, but 1.5 hits, and at S10, that's .75 damage rolls. For 3 Zzaps. At 36". Awesome.

At S8 it's .25 glances. Awesomer.


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n0t_u wrote:Doesn't it have asterisks after the ones that lose their ability? He will keep his ability as it also includes the unit he is joined with in its wording.

That only applies to USRs.

Elessar wrote:No, because that army can't beat ANYTHING else.

Somehow I think the anti-tank portion of the Ork codex was written before the 5th edition rules were finalized. Tankbustas are useful at all times if you can control their line of sight, which thanks to 5th edition requires dedicating multiple vehicles of your own to blind them. Rokkits, Kannons, PK Nobs, these things can glance AV14 all day, but glancing now takes 10+ results to actually stop a vehicle with multiple weapons, rather than having a 1/6 chance to destroy it outright like last edition. Deff Rollas were custom made for ramming by RAI as far as I can see (because tank shocking does feth all with armor saves allowed), but the semantic debate on whether or not that's allowed in 5th is still going on now over a year later. In 5th edition, "the age of the Mech and Melta", the only melta bombs orks have are from Tankbustas, who have to borrow somebody else's trukk to even get to the fight, and the only ranged melta is a 1/6 chance from the gimped out Wierdboy. With the shift in the list styles that came with 5th edition, you need to be able to kill at least one land raider every other turn to be successful against a raider spam list. With the current toolset available, it's really hard for Orks to be able to do that without taking so many rokkits, koptas, wierdboyz, Zzap guns and assorted gak that you can't beat a balanced list. Not saying it can't be done, but it's a very fine line to walk.

Most of the time us greenskins are better off just accepting that any Land Raider sitting on an objective with a bare minimum scout squad in it is unreachable. But that's 300 or so points dedicated to a multimelta and possibly a pair of lascannons. Big deal. If it's a Crusader/Redeemer, it's a little harder to contest that objective, but now only shoots a MM until you actually come to it. Ignore it until the last turn(s), and then contest the objective if neccesary, call it a day. Until then, play the game as though that objective did not exist. You might not wipe them off the board, but anyone that knows GW knows that any time a SM army gets tabled, the opponent's army accrues a "incoming nerf stick" token and the current codex's author loses an appendage. Play the missions rather than worrying about the big steel boxes o' cheese, and you'll come out fine.

Nurglitch wrote:Orks do have an answer to Land Raider spam, it's just that people won't take them. Something I like about 5th edition is that you can actually Glance vehicles to death via Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized damage effects.

That's like saying you double your chances of winning the lottery by buying two tickets. Glancing vehicles to death typically requires 5 weapon destroyed/immobilized results, which further requires something like 15 rolls on the glance table.

Just ask the Necron players if glancing vehicles to death is actually viable.

Elessar:

It's true, you don't seem to know math-hammer, or at least the part where you calculate the odds of what I'm talking about and not something else. Recall that Zzap Guns can take Ammo Runts, meaning that each Gun in a battery can be Twin-Linked if you roll S8+. Moreover that any glancing or penetrating hits automatically result in a Shaken result besides any other result.

When will a Zzap Gun battery roll S8+? About 41% of the time, going by the bell curve of 2D6 additive. 16% of the time you'll be hitting with S10. With the re-roll, each Zzap Gun will have a likelihood of hitting at about 75%. And denying that Land Raider the ability to use its Assault Cannons, Flamestorm Cannons, and Hurricane Bolters is a good thing, because it allows your Tankbustas to close and deliver the killing blows with Tankbusta Bombs and Tankhammers.

Moreover, as you may have noticed, 5th edition is a highly mechanized environment, which means that Tankbustas, particularly Spam Tankbustas, don't need to have their line of sight controlled.

Malecus:

Something I'd like to point out is that a Land Raider can survive up to six Damage results (One Immobilized result, Five Weapon Destroyed Results if the Space Marine player coughs up for the Hunter-Killer Missile). So it can take a minimum of six glancing hits to Destroy (Wrecked) a Land Raider.

Elessar wrote:Thanks

I think that's a good idea actually, I'd gladly participate, although I have to many projects on the way to start the thread myself.

Kannons should be Ordnance though. Burnas in Transports, Battlewagons and Eavy Armour for any Troops Boyz...Artillery outside Force Org, with Wierdboyz also outside...Lotas in Looted Wagons dedicated (fluffy and fun)...KMBs get Melta and small blast...Tankhammers all round...Bomb Squigs in Grots...

Alright, finally got around to making a couple of threads about this:
1 - Patching the Orks:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/247477.page
2 - Patching 40k:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/247475.page

your over simplifying it. If this is a LR and a terminator squad we are talking about and he does manage to surround the tank and blow them all up you are looking at 1/3 of most standard sized lists gone.

I'M oversimplifying it? I think you're underestimating just how truly god-awful S9 is against Land Raiders. Ask any LC-spamming Guard player, he'll tell you.

In case there's any confusion, I think the idea of surrounding and destroying a Land Raider so the cargo dies too is, at best, iffy. It's also hardly a reliable thing to do unless you have lots of Battlewagons and infantry.

Not something I would just say, oh well I have more guys, too.

Considering the amount of models you'd need to commit to surrounding the Land Raider in order to prevent him making a normal disembark move, let alone preventing emergency disembarking moves, I think that'd probably account for at least 1/3 of your army too. Which means if he has templates or pie-plates you're in a wee bit of a pickle.

Besides which 1/3 of an army is still only 1/3 of an army. What do you do about the rest of it now the Land Raider is dead?


And, once again, listen to Elessar. It's not just the inability to deal with AV14 without tailoring a list that does for Orks. Sit there and come up with lists entirely designed to crush Land Raiders, and you'll usually wind up crushing Land Raiders. Well done you. Then round two comes and 60 Sisters in Rhinos roll you. Etcetera etcetera.