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Elessar wrote:It's a unit special rule, so it's lost hen an IC joins. Stelek's good, but he's not god. He makes mistakes too - he also thought the Mandrake/Webway Portal combo was good (admittedly, so did I, until I thought about it for a few mins)
No FAQ is required, BRB holds the answer.

Ask Gwar! if you don't believe me.

Damnit :( I wanted to run the Snikrot/Grotsnik combo lol, it seemed fun.

Hollismason wrote:Ork armies have the ability to mechanize incredibly well add in they can have a Armour 14 transport for less than 120 points

If I can Glance it into uselessness with bolter spam it's not an AV14 vehicle.

Maybe saying that Orks suck is going too far. They're not a competetive Codex; against lists designed solely to win games built from Codexes like Tau, Eldar, Deldar or Smurfs, the Orks are going to find themselves without an answer nine times out of ten. Against AV14, and AV13 to an extent, you're buggered.

comparable to the wave serpent and you have something pretty nasty.

My interest is piqued; in what way is a 120pt Battlewagon comparable to a Wave Serpent?

Frank Fugger wrote:

If I can Glance it into uselessness with bolter spam it's not an AV14 vehicle.

Maybe saying that Orks suck is going too far. They're not a competetive Codex; against lists designed solely to win games built from Codexes like Tau, Eldar, Deldar or Smurfs, the Orks are going to find themselves without an answer nine times out of ten. Against AV14, and AV13 to an extent, you're buggered.

How are you going to bolter spam a Battlewagon? If you are shooting at the sides it is already to late.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frank Fugger wrote:

I've never played an Ork army with either of them, but they routinely crushed pretty much everything else I came up against to the extent that I had to promise to stop bringing them if I wanted to get a game. I'd be interested to know is how the average "competetive" Ork list would propose to deal with either of them, because quite frankly I can't see much of a way.

Frank Fugger wrote:As a Vulkan player who faces Orks regularly, I'd invite you to try throwing one or two Land Raiders or Crusaders into your lists and seeing how the Orks deal with them. It doesn't necessarily need to be a tailored AV14 list; something that includes the LRs in a competetive non-cheesy way. You might also like to put an Ironclad or two in there as well.

Basically, no matter what you do, if you run AV14 and 13 vehicles in such a way that ignoring them and chaqsing other units is not an option and destroying them is necessary for your opponent to achieve victory then the only thing an Ork player can do to handle you is tailor his list. Most other armies in 40K will rip Raider-spam lists to pieces, and can cope well enough with competetive lists that use AV14 as more than just a big shed for their Termies to get out of, but Orks can't. That's why they suck.

I am confused which is it? You play orks regularly or never?

I certainly have little issues with AV14 with my MegaNob Battlewagon spam.

Danny Internets wrote:Green Git seems to be taking the news that Orks aren't the top dog on the block a little too personally.

Nah, just the bleating of sheep that refuse to open their eyes.

Baaah... Land Raider... Baaaaaaaah.

methoderik wrote:How are you going to bolter spam a Battlewagon? If you are shooting at the sides it is already to late.

There are about a billion ways to drop masses of bolters behind a Battlewagon; Drop Pods, Deep Strike and Outflanking are the big ones, but OBEL comes in handy too. Pick your favourite.

I am confused which is it? You play orks regularly or never?

Re-read the thread and draw your own conclusions. Hint: I don't play Salamanders.

I certainly have little issues with AV14 with my MegaNob Battlewagon spam.

Course not, 'coz it's pretty much tailored to kill AV14. Well, as tailored as an Ork list can get. Play it against Mechdar/ Sisters-In-A-Box/ Power-Tau/ Mechvets and watch it get eaten.

I'm looking forward to winning 'Ard Boyz with my Orks.

I don't know what all this mumbo-jumbo is about orks being Tier 3, but you'll sing a different song after 'Ard Boyz!

Frank Fugger wrote:
There are about a billion ways to drop masses of bolters behind a Battlewagon; Drop Pods, Deep Strike and Outflanking are the big ones, but OBEL comes in handy too. Pick your favourite.

It really isn't about the battle wagon, but yet what is in it. If you bolter my BW to death, you are well within charge range.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Course not, 'coz it's pretty much tailored to kill AV14. Well, as tailored as an Ork list can get. Play it against Mechdar/ Sisters-In-A-Box/ Power-Tau/ Mechvets and watch it get eaten.

That's odd, played Mechdar and Mechvets this weekend, and they got eaten.

Have you played against the 4+ Battlewagon with Ghaz and Meganob spam?

methoderik wrote:It really isn't about the battle wagon, but yet what is in it. If you bolter my BW to death, you are well within charge range.

If it means your Wagon is out of commission for a turn, I'll take that charge

Have you played against the 4+ Battlewagon with Ghaz and Meganob spam?

I haven't had the pleasure. Sounds scary though, what with all those 24" BS2 1-shot per turn Krak missiles fired by 400pt-per-squad Slow And Purposeful models, that must be a real bloodbath. And the Battlewagons too, they're not in the least bit shoddy.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure. Sounds scary though, what with all those 24" BS2 1-shot per turn Krak missiles fired by 400pt-per-squad Slow And Purposeful models, that must be a real bloodbath. And the Battlewagons too, they're not in the least bit shoddy.

Krak missiles? You think Slow and Purposeful really matters when your in a Battlewagon with Ghaz?

I guess you have said enough for me to understand...

I suppose so.

Riddle me this, though; Meganobz cost xx points each. How do you "spam" expensive units whose usefulness is so sorely limited?

Mega Nobz actually come cheaper than regular Nobz armed with Power Klaws do, which is cool. If you take Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can give them access to Feel No Pain and Cybork bits.

Frank Fugger wrote:I suppose so.

Riddle me this, though; Meganobz cost xx points each. How do you "spam" expensive units whose usefulness is so sorely limited?

Ghaz and a Cheap Warboss.

Riddle me this?

How do you call a scoring unit with 2+ save, 2 wounds, toughness 4, with 4 power klaw attacks, and a 26" charge sorely limited?

Baaahhhhhaaaa! Orks suck! Land Raiders!

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!

Nurglitch wrote:Mega Nobz actually come cheaper than regular Nobz armed with Power Klaws do, which is cool. If you take Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can give them access to Feel No Pain and Cybork bits.

The problem is that Feel no Pain is a waste for MANs. With two wounds and a 2+ save, they're not vulnerable to small arms fire whatsoever. Everything that ignores their armor ignores Feel no Pain, as does everything that ignores their two wounds (lascannons, for instance, or meltaguns).

What I would recommend is a Warboss (or Ghazzie) with a bosspole in the MAN squad, but MDG in a twenty or thirty boy ork squad (maybe with Eavy Armor or a battlewagon if you really want to get your use out of them). Then, MDG can still upgrade the MANs with a 5+ invul, which is great considering the possibility of that invul being used on two different wounds.


(Also, how many tiers are there total? Three? Five?)

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:I suppose so.

Riddle me this, though; Meganobz cost xx points each. How do you "spam" expensive units whose usefulness is so sorely limited?

Ghaz and a Cheap Warboss.

Riddle me this?

How do you call a scoring unit with 2+ save, 2 wounds, toughness 4, with 4 power klaw attacks, and a 26" charge sorely limited?

Its actually 27-29" charge range if you have red paint.

@Frank Fugger - Battlewagons ARE comparable to Wave Serpents.

In cost.

The Green Git - I find that offensive.

The Green Git wrote:Baaahhhhhaaaa! Orks suck! Land Raiders!

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!

Please stop spamming this thread. If you have nothing useful to add, please do not post. This is not an acceptable way to make your point.

I think that the "good" Ork build is now mass battlewagons; Nob Bikers, if they were ever really good, have been thoroughly metagamed out of true viability.

A fun way to kill land raiders is a pair of warpheadz. one of them is likely to get a Zapp and if your 16 inches away thats 2d6 armour penetration. not to mention that it hits automatically. so if you get a double 2 its a glance thats pretty damn good. i got armour pen 20 once (thats the bet in the game at that range) Tank blew up good hur hur hur.

other methods include shokk attack gun, suicide trukk ram (full speed+road+reinforced ram= strength ten hit) nice image as well considering the trukk is going to explode on impact. zagstrukk's swoop. zapp guns work well. boomgunz, wreking ballz

and whats wrong with using deff rollaz (if it counts against vehicles) you just crush everything between the two tanks then disembark your nobz or tankbustaz or whatever and have anutha go. the best bet is to stun or imobilize it then use one of the killy units to finish it.

The whole tier concept dosn't mesh well with me. all the armys are capable of killer lists, some just take more exploration and finesse to find, while others are just out right obvious *cough*lash*cough*. the big thing people wing about is that orks can do anything well. mech= trukks, dreads=11 dreads, shooty=all da dakka, assault= all da choppa, horde= boyz, elite= nobz there is no uber list. every one has its weak points.

I think Lash is way overrated. I'm glad someone finally mentioned Zzap Guns - I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth trying to use Artillery in the 2/3 missions it's not pathetic...

Frank Fugger wrote:
There are about a billion ways to drop masses of bolters behind a Battlewagon; Drop Pods, Deep Strike and Outflanking are the big ones, but OBEL comes in handy too. Pick your favourite.

You're not going to do anything to a battlewagon with bolters. Your change to kill it, even if it is open topped is rediculously minute. Its also then the worst place for you to be in if you are within 12" of it. The point of battlewagons, like landraider, isnt to cause damage themselves, but to carry big nasty things that can. If you DS a squad or two next to a battlewagon and manage to do anything to it at all you will get charged and killed by whats inside.

cody.d. wrote:A fun way to kill land raiders is a pair of warpheadz. one of them is likely to get a Zapp and if your 16 inches away thats 2d6 armour penetration. not to mention that it hits automatically. so if you get a double 2 its a glance thats pretty damn good. i got armour pen 20 once (thats the bet in the game at that range) Tank blew up good hur hur hur.

Two warpheads use up both of your HQ slots, which would be better served taking a warboss or big mek. Even if you have two you only have a 1/3 chance per turn to get the right power, which then may not even work. Using these for primary anti-tank is just silly.

cody.d. wrote:
other methods include shokk attack gun, suicide trukk ram (full speed+road+reinforced ram= strength ten hit) nice image as well considering the trukk is going to explode on impact. zagstrukk's swoop. zapp guns work well. boomgunz, wreking ballz

You cant count on every game using roads and you certainly cant count on a vehicle sitting on it. Zagstrukk is good but then again you rely on getting lucky with your reserve roll and scatter. Zag may not turn up until turn 5 or you may scatter onto the vehicle you are trying to kill and get destroyed. Zzap guns are just plain awful for killing tanks. Against AV14 you get a 1/3.6 chance to be able to even hurt it. Then you may not hit of course, because even grots have piss poor BS. Boomguns, like all ordnance, have too high a change to scatter to be good at killing tanks. Wrecking ball need to get to their targets to cause damage, and orks have much better ways to get S9 his.

cody.d. wrote:
and whats wrong with using deff rollaz (if it counts against vehicles) you just crush everything between the two tanks then disembark your nobz or tankbustaz or whatever and have anutha go. the best bet is to stun or imobilize it then use one of the killy units to finish it.

A lot of places dont allow you to use dethrollas against vehicles, so these cant be used as anti0tank either.

Elessar wrote:I think Lash is way overrated. I'm glad someone finally mentioned Zzap Guns - I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth trying to use Artillery in the 2/3 missions it's not pathetic...

Lash is only getting worse now that everyone is FINALLY figuring out that mech armies are better in 5th. Zzap guns arent worth it. Too low BS and too low a chance to get the strength you need to even scratch the paint on a heavy tank make them all but useless.

Generally orks are still pretty good, but the lists need to keep evolving. Nob bikers suffer because eveyone runs counters to them. Tide suffers because everyone can throw out a disgusting amount of templates to rate of fire weapons. Kan horde suffers because everyone is stocking up on meltas and they get hurt bu vehicle squadron rules.

I think that mech orks is the way to go. Landraiders asside, to deal with transports you have to load up on lootas and rokkits. Orks can get loads of rokkits, some of which will hit even though you are only BS2. In a 2000pt list you can easily get 15+ rokkits and some lootas to deal with transports. After that you still have enough boys to sweep up everything that left.

Dealing with landraiders will always be a problem for orks. If there was an easy solution to them we would have figured it out already. They best you can hope for is a lucky glance from a rokkit or hitting it with a PK, but even then its not certain.

Regwon wrote:Zzap guns are just plain awful for killing tanks. Against AV14 you get a 1/3.6 chance to be able to even hurt it. Then you may not hit of course, because even grots have piss poor BS. Boomguns, like all ordnance, have too high a change to scatter to be good at killing tanks. Wrecking ball need to get to their targets to cause damage, and orks have much better ways to get S9 his.

QFT. Zzap guns are great Terminator killers but lousy anti-tank weapons. If they only left the auto-hit rule they would be worth it. Errata it in, Phil Kelly.

Regwon wrote:I think that mech orks is the way to go. Landraiders asside, to deal with transports you have to load up on lootas and rokkits. Orks can get loads of rokkits, some of which will hit even though you are only BS2. In a 2000pt list you can easily get 15+ rokkits and some lootas to deal with transports. After that you still have enough boys to sweep up everything that left.

Dealing with landraiders will always be a problem for orks. If there was an easy solution to them we would have figured it out already. They best you can hope for is a lucky glance from a rokkit or hitting it with a PK, but even then its not certain.

Mech Orks will work just like Mech IG works, except you are substituting Trukks for Chimeras and PKs for Meltas. You don't hit as often but get more tries.

Couple Battlewagons with WAC Ork Mobs, a Boss and KFF Mek, Trukk spam w/PK Nobs, some Kans... Bob's your uncle. Orks will survive and adapt. More enemy vehicles means less boots on the ground which just makes the Shoota Boyz mop up job easier.

AV 14 is just difficult to deal with there just is not alot in the Ork army that can deal with it. Also, I say and people I play that deffrollas work on vehicles. So that works out well.

The only reliable method I have see of destroying tanks is tankbustas riding around with a boarding plank.

Isn't the obviuos answer to just add wrecking balls and rokkits to all the vehicles. That backed by PK nobs should handle armor nicely. Through in boarding planks too if thats big a deal.

GG

Nurglitch wrote:Mega Nobz actually come cheaper than regular Nobz armed with Power Klaws do, which is cool. If you take Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can give them access to Feel No Pain and Cybork bits.

Someone else has already mentioned that FnP is a waste for MANs, so I won't do that. As far as the 5++ save goes, meh. So what; all that does is give me slightly (note; SLIGHTLY, because 5+ saves are fail) less inclination to waste to-hit dice on them in the shooting phase. Which gives me more incentive to shoot your gakky Battlewagons. Which means your Slow and Purposeful goons are Slowly and Purposefully walking around with their BS2 and their SnP Fleet Powerklaws.

methoderik wrote:How do you call a scoring unit with 2+ save, 2 wounds, toughness 4, with 4 power klaw attacks, and a 26" charge sorely limited?

You don't, you prove it by asking it to tackle AV14. Which it can't.

Or survive Prism blasts. Again, not going to happen.

Dashofpepper wrote:Its actually 27-29" charge range if you have red paint.

That's actually quite cool. Shame your BS is garbage and WS doesn't matter a jot against moving vehicles.

Elessar wrote:@Frank Fugger - Battlewagons ARE comparable to Wave Serpents.

In cost.

Yeah; they're very much the equal of Wave Serpents in that regard

cody.d. wrote:A fun way to kill land raiders is a pair of warpheadz. one of them is likely to get a Zapp and if your 16 inches away thats 2d6 armour penetration. not to mention that it hits automatically. so if you get a double 2 its a glance thats pretty damn good. i got armour pen 20 once (thats the bet in the game at that range) Tank blew up good hur hur hur.

I've had an armour pen roll of 28 with a Vindicare Assassin. Does that suddenly mean he's an OMGWTFOSSOM tank-buster? No. He's better than the Warphead though, because although he's limited to one Turbo Penetrator a game he doesn't have to dice for it.

By the by, you can score 20 on a pen roll with meltabombs.

other methods include shokk attack gun,

Okay, I'm sitting here bashing Orks, and will continue to do so, but I've got to admit; I love the SAT. It's not a counter to AV14, at least not a good one, but by crikey it's a fun thing to have on the table, almost as fun as a Deathstrike launcher.

suicide trukk ram (full speed+road+reinforced ram= strength ten hit) nice image as well considering the trukk is going to explode on impact. zagstrukk's swoop. zapp guns work well. boomgunz, wreking ballz

and whats wrong with using deff rollaz (if it counts against vehicles)

What's wrong with it; a gak-load of things, to be honest. On the surface of it Deffrolla-spam is good. You can get, potentially, 7 of them in a list, and for not a great deal of points, plus enough other gak to offer reasonable back-up.

The thing is, though, it relies on your Battlewagons being able to move every turn, and since they're 14-12-10 it won't be hard to stop them doing that. S4 weapons and CC attacks will do it nicely. Then you've got to consider that if you take your Deffrollas to the wrong club your entire list and the strategy that goes with it is down the pan. Not everyone agrees that they work on Ramming (I do, but that's by the by).

Plus it won't work on Skimmer armies, so it's not a catch-all solution. Either you'll never catch them or you'll never hit them. Skimmers with Lance weapons will further ruin your day.

you just crush everything between the two tanks then disembark your nobz or tankbustaz or whatever and have anutha go.

Hit on 6, Glance on 6. I'm positively trembling. Wait, I forgot about tank-hammers.... so hit on 6, glance on 4. Wow. Colour me terrified.

The whole tier concept dosn't mesh well with me. all the armys are capable of killer lists, some just take more exploration and finesse to find, while others are just out right obvious *cough*lash*cough*. the big thing people wing about is that orks can do anything well. mech= trukks, dreads=11 dreads, shooty=all da dakka, assault= all da choppa, horde= boyz, elite= nobz there is no uber list. every one has its weak points.

No, I'm not a fan of the Tier or Metagame bollocks either to be Frank, which I am. On the internets, at least. Still, you've got to admit that building an Ork army that'll handle everything is more difficult than trying to build one from most other Codexes.

Regwon wrote:You're not going to do anything to a battlewagon with bolters. Your change to kill it, even if it is open topped is rediculously minute.

This sort of thinking is what I like in opponents. It's why my 70pt Termie/ Psycannon Inquisitors can cripple mech lists (and, partly, because nobody ever expects them). I don't need to destroy your sweaty Battlewagon with the Bolters or Gauss Blasters or Stormbolters or whatever; I just have to Stun it for a turn, and then hope you're enough of an idiot to disembark models from it to charge the mighty bolter-bearing pawns that have Stunned your vehicle, so you then have to feth around and waste another turn re-embarking once the Stun wears off and thus aren't moving anywhere particularly useful.

Tactics are fun to use, especially against units open to exploitation such as gakky AV10 rear vehicles that people think are AV14.

Its also then the worst place for you to be in if you are within 12" of it. The point of battlewagons, like landraider, isnt to cause damage themselves, but to carry big nasty things that can.

Yeah, because that's why you arm a 14-14-14 vehicle with 3 weapons and give it the ability to fire on the move at different targets. Because it's designed solely to operate as an Assault Vehicle.

Elessar wrote:I think Lash is way overrated.

Here here! OHNOES a Lash DP with wings! I sure do wish my army was mech, so's... oh wait, silly me!

ProTip: Warptime rules all. Seriously; the days of Lash are numbered. Having a MC that can reroll to hit on the charge gives you yet another way to deal with moving vehicles.

Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

Danny Internets wrote:

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

If they moved more than 6"... Still that is 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit... yeah not to scary!?

And if they Kill Ghaz and 9 MANZ after, then well they deserved it. Typically though, some those 18 toughness 4 2+save wounds and 4 toughness 5 2+ save wounds make it through. What you are forgetting is that this is turn 2, and you have just been hit with 3 other Battlewagons as well.

Danny Internets wrote:

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

Your Land Raider this... my Battlewagon that... I know I said I've never played a Wagon-spam army (which is telling in itself) but, given that it relies on spamming unspammable gakky units, I can pretty much guarantee it'll be a pile of spank. Spam relies on two things; being able to do everything, and being hard to kill. Your Battlewagons fulfil neither of those requirements, and neither do the fatties you're running in them. Sure, as long as you can fit enough Wagons into your list you'll likely handle my Raider-spam (at 1750pts I can fit 4 with Multimeltas, plus a unit of TH/ SS Termies and 3 scoring units, so I reckon 5 or 6 Wagons would just about do it), but when it comes to a properly-played Mechdar list, Power-Tau or even fething Deldar Raider platforms, you're going to be seen off.

Face it, you play a shoddy Codex that needs a rethink. Instead of coming up with nonsensical tailored lists and proffering bollocky counters to AV14 that leave you wide open to... well, pretty much everything aside from AV14, accept the fact that the Ork Codex isn't a 5th Edition Codex in any sense of the word and move on.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Your Land Raider this... my Battlewagon that... I know I said I've never played a Wagon-spam army (which is telling in itself) but, given that it relies on spamming unspammable gakky units, I can pretty much guarantee it'll be a pile of spank. Spam relies on two things; being able to do everything, and being hard to kill. Your Battlewagons fulfil neither of those requirements, and neither do the fatties you're running in them. Sure, as long as you can fit enough Wagons into your list you'll likely handle my Raider-spam (at 1750pts I can fit 4 with Multimeltas, plus a unit of TH/ SS Termies and 3 scoring units, so I reckon 5 or 6 Wagons would just about do it), but when it comes to a properly-played Mechdar list, Power-Tau or even fething Deldar Raider platforms, you're going to be seen off.

Face it, you play a shoddy Codex that needs a rethink. Instead of coming up with nonsensical tailored lists and proffering bollocky counters to AV14 that leave you wide open to... well, pretty much everything aside from AV14, accept the fact that the Ork Codex isn't a 5th Edition Codex in any sense of the word and move on.

Apparently you know everything so I won't waste to much breath. You are slamming my list without every having seeing it, let alone playing against it, so you really are talking out of your arse anyway.

Your denial of the Ork being a competitive 5th edition codex is in the end, your problem.

Power-Tau.... funny.

ps. We've missed you . Not.