Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

warboss wrote:

The Green Git wrote:Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

*sorry, can't resist!*

just because he was opposing you on the other side of the table doesn't mean you can call him something you place in your rectum! remember dakka's rule #1!

Well la-di-da, I guess maybe you fancy folks in those big cities put enemas in your rectums, but in the real world we do it the good old fashioned way!

What is the baseline folks would consider Orks 3rd tier? Local tourneys, indy GT's, in house games... all of the above? Is there a breakdown on a single site for all the indy GT's this year showing this?

Locally, Orks are still doing well. However, lists have morphed a bit since the release of the Space Marine Codex. I haven't seen an Ork horde army in some time. My personal army went mechanized and has done fairly well. I've not dealt with a totally lopsided game which has included going against a couple of Vulcan lists.

It just seems that a lot of doom and gloom about the Orks is on the internet.

Someone doesn't seem to understand the difference between my view of the game and everyone elses...at no point do I believe in a 'tier' system or a 'metagame'. So Orks end up being at the bottom of competitive, which I guess in the ranking system is tier 3.

For those that don't understand what stelek's been getting at. In fact, it looks like he's responding directly to this thread:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/orks-etc.html

I don't think orks are non competitive or have slipped out of the top tier. Remember that Stelek does not believe in a national level meta game nor do I. That said I realize that there are army lists we will see more often than not at big tournies. There are certainly Internet spam lists that run rampant and I think that is unfortunate really. The top players have solutions for the more popular builds, orks have been out there for awhile now... People are used to them and they really don't seem to have any tricks left up their sleeves. That doesn't mean you need any tricks to do well. Orks have all the tools they need to deal with everything out there including landraiders. Prolly it's getting hard for people who like to run Internet spam lists to still pull off the big win with their boyz. If that's the case it's time to go back to the drawing board and design your own unique list.

G

I agree with Green Blow Fly: cribbing advice from the intarwebz is no substitute for actually learning the game yourself.

Green Blow Fly wrote: Prolly it's getting hard for people who like to run Internet spam lists to still pull off the big win with their boyz. If that's the case it's time to go back to the drawing board and design your own unique list.

And with that statement I think GBF has hit the nail on the head. Peeps that run very popular lists spammed all over the web cannot simply hit the "Easy" button and win anymore. For those lacking original thought they will not be able to cope, having less than the requisite number of brain cells to rub together.

I'm certainly not the most capable general out there, but I muster more wins than losses with the Greenskins*. I attribute these successes to the strength and resiliency of the army, not my talent.

*Trolls feel free not to respond to this post. You know who you are.

So if I can't figure out how orks deal with AV14, it's because I'm stupid. Gotcha.

Orky dreadnaughts, warboss & nobz powerklaws, tank bustaz... Need I say more?

G

Yeah, run the numbers and explain how any of those will a) get to the tank intact, and b) buck the law of averages and somehow actually do something.

Don't forget Lootas, Looted Wagons, Warpheadz, Big Guns, Battlewagons, Deffkoptas, and Warbuggies.

And grots, stormboyz, flashgits, and kommandos with snikkrot. Wait, we're making a list of stuff that can't realistically touch av14, right?

Killa Kans. Most points-efficient unit in the game.

willydstyle wrote:Killa Kans. Most points-efficient unit in the game.

The Kan wall does indeed do an okay job of taking out Raiders. Back with KFF for goodness.

dumbuket wrote:Yeah, run the numbers and explain how any of those will a) get to the tank intact, and b) buck the law of averages and somehow actually do something.

Why does everyone always demand numbers. Orks don't care about statistics, they are cheap and can throw alot at you. Might not be efficient but it gets the job done.

A) The same way orks get in contact with anyting, runing forward, using cover and relying on lootas to kill anything not av 14. Then get the av 14 into an assult.

B) There is still a on a dice right? Averages only go so far.

Anybody can Mathhammer/Theoryhammer all you want. Only thing that matters is what the dice roll that game; and its just a game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Killa Kans. Most points-efficient unit in the game.

The Kan wall does indeed do an okay job of taking out Raiders. Back with KFF for goodness.

Yes it certanly does, gives a nice wall for the boys as well.

I guess you assault Genestealers with Gretchins "coz there are like 6's on the dice", too.

*Shakes head*

Steelmage99 wrote:I guess you assault Genestealers with Gretchins "coz there are like 6's on the dice", too.

*Shakes head*

I have, I wont deny it. They did wonders on the Nightbringer awhile ago too, little buggers have their uses.

Casper wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I guess you assault Genestealers with Gretchins "coz there are like 6's on the dice", too.

*Shakes head*

I have, I wont deny it. They did wonders on the Nightbringer awhile ago too, little buggers have their uses.

Are you talking about gretchin again? Because you know that there's literally nothing that they can do against the Nightbringer. S2 can't affect T6, let alone T8. And even if Gretchin magically doubled in strength, the etheric tempest would just blow them out of combat. Or do you just play CasperHammer?

Maybe you're forgetting that Runtherdz with Grot-prod always wounds on a 4+. In addition, the Grabba Stikk will reduce the Nightbringer's attacks by 1 each round. Three of them would have nine attacks on the charge, always wounding on 4+, with Grotz to soak up the two attacks that the Nightbringer could bring in return.

Perhaps the Necron player was confident of beating up the Ld7 unit and chasing it down, and basically got tasered in the 'nads for his over-confidence.

Why the hell do people complain about land raiders? dreads, kans, PK's take care of them whenever i have to deal with them. Put your horde under two force fields while trudging up to em' and rip them open then get to spanking on those terminators. Pop some rokkits at the enemy's tanks and hopefully you'll stun it and make it worthless for a turn. And ignoring them aint a bad option either. Them killing three orks (im assuming after losing your armor) a turn isnt a bad lose.

Yeah if the landraider is the only reason not to play orks then try fantasy. I'm sure you can deal wif steam tanks.

G

If it is a Land Raider carrying Assault Terminators, then how will the Killa Kanz get through them and tear apart the Land Raiders?

Edited 'cause I had a better response after finding out the sm army list...

HQ:
KFF Big Mek w/ PK
PK footslogging warboss

Elites:
Lootas
Tankbustas

Troops:
Diversified nobs in a trukk w/ boarding plank
Shoota boyz in trukks w/ boarding planks

Fast attack / Heavy support:
Kitted out battlewagons (lootas and tankbustas go here)

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Two tac squads, Combat squad split. Rhino for each. Two Speeders with Hvy Bolter/Ass Cannon. Dred, Ass Cannon/DCCW. Dred, MM/DCCW. Big Marine squad of somthing (Vets? Dunno) with Chaplain Cassius, two Power Fists, Three Storm Shields, and a couple Power Weapons delivered via LR Crusader. Tac Squad taxied by LR Redeemer. Vanguard squad with Shrike. I'm probably missing something.

No Sternguard. And he DID have flamers in his Vanguard. They had jump packs and did the turn one assault thing. Oddly enough, the Vanguard were one of the only units that could close the deal, taking down the Battlewagon. Too bad they died a horrible death to Ghazkull & his Bully Boyz when they disembarked.

Say what you want... I've faced Mech IG, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other Orks, and Daemons. I can go toe to toe with them all. If I lose a game it's not due to a failing of the Codex but usually my poor decision making in game or the dice gods frowning on me.

That list is a horrible 'ard boyz space marine list. Ass Cannon/hb SPEEDERS?!?!. No assault termies? VANGUARD?!?!

Really...wtf?

Well well well, a very interesting thread:

@the Green Git - that SM army was rubbish. Sorry, I'm not being rude, but it was.

Generally - I own over 10k of Orks. I've played 5th with them maybe a hundred times. Orks cannot, and I can't stress this enough CANNOT reliably beat a list with 2+ Land Raiders. One can be dodged, or fluked, but 2 or more, and you may as well throw in the towel-squig, and watch someone else's game, and not waste everyone's time. Anyone who recommends Tankbustas isn't half as good as they think they are - maybe if they didn't take up a Loota spot, maybe if they didn't cost more than 8 points each, maybe if they weren't the easiest thing in the world to counter because, oh look, most things have more range.

Orks can be good. But they aren't as good as Eldar, SM, CSM, DE, IG, WH...basically, as Stelek says on the issue. Killla Kans get killed by Melta on a 3+, and please find me a Melta weapon that doesn't get more than a glance on AV11 reliably.

Relying on a boarding plank to REACH nevermind damage a Rhino, let alone a LR is naive at best. When ramming a Battlewagn feels like the best bet, you should just give up and cry. Also, Warpheadz are bigger fail than all 3 Star Wars prequels without the final special effects put in yet. They redefine fail as a concept - and they're still 10x better than a regular Wierdboy.

Arbalest wrote:If it is a Land Raider carrying Assault Terminators, then how will the Killa Kanz get through them and tear apart the Land Raiders?

From personal experience, it's rather hard to do. You more or less have to force the Termis into an offensive role instead of sitting tight in their transport. This in itself isn't remarkably difficult because most SM players are eager to get their AssTerms into combat as quickly as possible. Screening your Kanz while keeping them close enough to counter assault, however, is a lot more difficult.

If you absorb that first charge, you can wall off the Raiders with your walkers so that they can't move further than 6" and after that 20+ S10 attacks is more than enough to take out as many as needed.

When executed properly, it works. But like any plan with a great deal of complexity, any number of things can go wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elessar wrote:Killla Kans get killed by Melta on a 3+, and please find me a Melta weapon that doesn't get more than a glance on AV11 reliably.

If you can use the KFF Mek effectively, Killa Kanz become surprisingly resilient. AV11 is no joke when it gets a perma-4+ ignore save.

Against Melta fire, or even a Heavy Flamer, AV11 still isn't enough, even with a KFF. Even Pulse Rifles can destroy you from 30" away...

I've played against the list, I know how tough it is - it's not about to get tabled any time soon. But that doesn't mean it's good enough to win either.


EDIT: 100th post, lol.

An army like Tau or IG will have enough long guns to take the Kanz out. Most others won't. Kanz don't have to be in close combat to start wrecking things; Grotzookas are an amazing gun and the punishment dealt at 18" per point cost is one of the highest in the game.

That said, I don't disagree that Orks have huge problems. An army whose answer to AV14 is to 'LOL and run forwards with huggy-arms' is fighting an uphill battle. I don't know what games the previous posters are playing where they can ignore Land Raiders, but it certainly hasn't mirrored my experience.

Here's a couple of Raider-spam lists I've run in the past. First of all, Daemonhunters-style:

HQ -
BroCap w/ Psychic Hood - 81
Elite -
Inq Retinue - 322
- Inquisitor w/ BP/CCW & Emperor's Tarot - 37
- 2x Mystic - 12
- Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Extra Armour & Smoke - 273
Troops -
PAGK x4 & Justicar - 150
PAGK x4 & Justicar - 150
PAGK x4 & Justicar - 150
Heavy Support -
Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Psycannon Bolts, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra Armour & Smoke - 293
Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Psycannon Bolts, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra Armour & Smoke - 293
Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Psycannon Bolts, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra Armour & Smoke - 293

You can run this with ISTs instead of Grey Knights and fit another =][= Land Raider retinue in for a total of 5 LRs, but people complain about ISTs going in the Land Raiders sometimes so this is the simplest way to do it. There's also Smurf-style:

HQ -
Termie Chaplain w/ Combi-Melta - 135
Elite -
Assault Terminators x5 w/ TH/ SS, Land Raider w/ Multimelta & Extra Armour - 475
Troops -
Tac Squad x4 & Sgt w/ Chainsword & Meltabombs - 95
Tac Squad x4 & Sgt w/ Chainsword & Meltabombs - 95
Tac Squad x4 & Sgt w/ Chainsword & Meltabombs - 95
Heavy Support -
Land Raider w/ Multimelta, HK Missile & Extra Armour - 285
Land Raider w/ Multimelta, HK Missile & Extra Armour - 285
Land Raider w/ Multimelta, HK Missile & Extra Armour - 285

I've never played an Ork army with either of them, but they routinely crushed pretty much everything else I came up against to the extent that I had to promise to stop bringing them if I wanted to get a game. I'd be interested to know is how the average "competetive" Ork list would propose to deal with either of them, because quite frankly I can't see much of a way.

An Ork player wouldn't even open his case, if he had any sense. Better to concede than actually be tabled, despite having 200-odd models.