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If they moved more than 6"... Still that is 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit... yeah not to scary!?

This demonstrates exactly why you find yourself on the wrong side of a bad argument.

The reason why Orks can't deal with Land Raiders is because anyone who isn't an idiot is going to move more than 6" with them every single turn while in charge range. That's the whole point. That's why Orks can't deal with them. Did you really not understand that?

To answer your question, no, that's not very scary. AV 14 shrugs most of the S9 off, and will shrug off the S10 half of the time. And none of it is AP 1. If you need to spend 5/600 points just to do that then you're in dire straights.

methoderik wrote:Apparently you know everything so I won't waste to much breath. You are slamming my list without every having seeing it, let alone playing against it, so you really are talking out of your arse anyway.

So post it up; let's see it. I did try making one myself, but when I realised I'd have, at best, 50 MANs at 1500pts before I wedge Ghaz and the Wagons in there I decided to abandon it.

Your denial of the Ork being a competitive 5th edition codex is in the end, your problem.

I don't run Orks so it's not my problem at all. If I did, I'd be worried that people such as your good self are touting them as an effective Codex when they're really not; the more GW think people are satisfied with their garbage the less inclined they'll be to change it. If I were you I'd be clamouring for an actual solution to the problem of dealing with AV14 as opposed to just pulling ineffective non-answers out of your backside and trying to pass them off as uber. I'd also suggest learning to use a Land Raider properly; it requires a lot more zen than simply putting it on the table and counting on it to just be "better" than anything your opponent has, and if people are using them this way against you they're doing it wrong.

Power-Tau.... funny.

Not really. Battlesuits are a fething pain to tie down and Railheads/ Broadsides are just evil. They're one of the few truly competetive builds that a Raider-spam list will pick off though, so it's not all that bad for a spam-monger like me.

ps. We've missed you . Not.

I think I understand this but I'm not sure. You'll have to elucidate.

Frank isn't stelek, if that's what people are thinking.

Danny Internets wrote:
This demonstrates exactly why you find yourself on the wrong side of a bad argument.

The reason why Orks can't deal with Land Raiders is because anyone who isn't an idiot is going to move more than 6" with them every single turn while in charge range. That's the whole point. That's why Orks can't deal with them. Did you really not understand that?

To answer your question, no, that's not very scary. AV 14 shrugs most of the S9 off, and will shrug off the S10 half of the time. And none of it is AP 1. If you need to spend 5/600 points just to do that then you're in dire straights.

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. I see your points, I do, but I think you are attacking one situational match up. I was really responding to the whole "Orks can't deal with AV14" routine. Yes, your Landraider is going to move 6+" when they see a bunch of Battlewagons, but they are not skimmers. Their movement can/will be quickly limited. Than there is the other 60-75% of my Army out there.

I guess in your circle's Orks can't deal with Armor 14, Cool. But in mine, while not a gimmee task, it can be handled.

AV14 Shrugs of S9 one at a time, same kinda with S10. Multiples of each will eventually end it.

I will spend 400-600 on Ghaz and Co. every time. They just do to much not to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frank Fugger wrote:
So post it up; let's see it. I did try making one myself, but when I realised I'd have, at best, 50 MANs at 1500pts before I wedge Ghaz and the Wagons in there I decided to abandon it.

I hardly see how this would be a good use of my time. It is far from being a tourney winner, but has performed very well. Once I get some more time with it under my belt we will see.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I don't run Orks so it's not my problem at all. If I did, I'd be worried that people such as your good self are touting them as an effective Codex when they're really not; the more GW think people are satisfied with their garbage the less inclined they'll be to change it. If I were you I'd be clamouring for an actual solution to the problem of dealing with AV14 as opposed to just pulling ineffective non-answers out of your backside and trying to pass them off as uber. I'd also suggest learning to use a Land Raider properly; it requires a lot more zen than simply putting it on the table and counting on it to just be "better" than anything your opponent has, and if people are using them this way against you they're doing it wrong.

I am not passing anything off as uber. I am just disagreeing that Orks are "tier 3" just yet. You asked if they have reliable AV14 death, I say they do.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Not really. Battlesuits are a fething pain to tie down and Railheads/ Broadsides are just evil. They're one of the few truly competetive builds that a Raider-spam list will pick off though, so it's not all that bad for a spam-monger like me.

They are effective enough sure... but Power-Tau? Sorry, they lose to many match-ups they are going to see regularly. You can win, but it is going to be situational.

What is the point about arguing how well Orks can deal with a Land Raider? Does any army "easily deal with a Land Raider"?

You guys act as if you can't win games without killing your opponent's land raiders. That is just a ridiculous assumption.

If you seriously think that Orks are better than Tau, I don't know what to say.

Fetterkey wrote:If you seriously think that Orks are better than Tau, I don't know what to say.

"Yes Sir Warboss Sir" would be the proper response. I'm thinking of picking up Tau again because I want to be challenged. Local players cheered when I sold my Tau to another player and then showed up with my shiny (as shiny as grey plastic could be at the time) new Ork army right after the new codex came out. Everybody had a reason to take Farsight! Give you a guess or two how well that worked out. (Hint: Against any army other than Orks (1 loss), Necrons (4 losses), and Tyranids (3 losses), the 10+ games per month I played steadily since then my record with Orks starts with "un" and rhymes with "defeated")

What is the point about arguing how well Orks can deal with a Land Raider? Does any army "easily deal with a Land Raider"?

Vulkan armies do. And they're the most popular SM variant in tournaments by a wide margin.

You guys act as if you can't win games without killing your opponent's land raiders. That is just a ridiculous assumption.

Not being able to kill the Land Raiders allows the owner of the Land Raiders to dictate how and where the battle is fought. That's an invaluable advantage, especially when objectives are involved. Multiply that advantage times two if the LR's are Redeemers vs Orks.

It's not about killing your opponent's Land Raiders. Follow the thread properly and you'll see it's more about what Orks can't do in general; dealing with AV14 without getting served in return is just one such thing.

methoderik wrote:I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. I see your points, I do, but I think you are attacking one situational match up. I was really responding to the whole "Orks can't deal with AV14" routine. Yes, your Landraider is going to move 6+" when they see a bunch of Battlewagons, but they are not skimmers. Their movement can/will be quickly limited. Than there is the other 60-75% of my Army out there.

How can/ will it be "quickly limited"? I can move each of my Land Raiders 12" and still fire a single weapon; which, given the gak your Wagons are carrying, will probably be 12" towards your Wagons and the Multimelta. OH NO don't shoot at me with BS2 rockets or charge me needing 6's to hit, assuming you can SnP far enough!

I guess in your circle's Orks can't deal with Armor 14, Cool. But in mine, while not a gimmee task, it can be handled.

In which case your AV14 players are doing it wrong.

AV14 Shrugs of S9 one at a time, same kinda with S10. Multiples of each will eventually end it.

Assuming you can bring those multiples to bear. Multiple bolter shots will eventually end your Battlewagons; multiple lascannon and Multimelta shots will do it quicker, and from further away. And while moving.

I will spend 400-600 on Ghaz and Co. every time. They just do to much not to.

I feel you, man. Honestly I do. I used to think throwing Calgar into a list so's I could choose when my Smurfs ran away was the done thing too, until I realised that, for the same amount of points, I could get a Land Raider. Or a kitted out Sternguard squad in a Drop Pod. Or two and a half Melta Dreadpods. Never looked back since.

I hardly see how this would be a good use of my time. It is far from being a tourney winner,

And so we come to the pertinent point in the whole shebang. It's far from being a tournament winner. See below.

I am not passing anything off as uber. I am just disagreeing that Orks are "tier 3" just yet. You asked if they have reliable AV14 death, I say they do.

What the feth is Tier 3? Tier systems are bollocks. It's not a matter of Tiers; you're always going to be able to make an army list from any book that can beat a certain set-up from another book. Hell, I reckon I could take your Wagon-spam list to any gaming club in the land and, once I'd gotten a handle on the nuances of it, give most lists a run for their money. Most lists that weren't set up purely to win games, with all the fat trimmed off and all possible streamlining done. Thing is, there aren't many books from which you can make an army list that will handle anything that's thrown at it. The Eldar codex is one. The Tau codex is another. Smurfs and ChaoSmurfs do well, as do Mech Sisters, Space Wolves, and, to an extent, Radical Daemonhunters (as long as your Allied Smurf contingent is heavy and you take the right Elites). Orks don't. They just don't. There's a difference between being able to

They are effective enough sure... but Power-Tau? Sorry, they lose to many match-ups they are going to see regularly. You can win, but it is going to be situational.

Just... yeah. Power-Tau's Heavy Support and Fast Attack units are probably going to have your entire army list handled before it's gotten halfway across the board.

What you need to realise here is that nobody is attacking your abilities as a player. feth that, if you can manage to wrangle a win from a Mechdar list with a load of Battlewagons and some MANs then you must be doing something right. You are, however, the exception rather than the rule, and if you ARE winning games then it's down to you; and possibly your opponents. Certainly your opponents, because if they're running AV14 properly you shouldn't be able to touch them, much less whup them time and again.

What people are saying is that the Ork Codex has a lot of fatal flaws. You can see it yourself; the Wagon-spam list ain't a tourney winner, and given the fact (I'm assuming) it relies on a set principle (close in, Tank Shock, release the fatties) which can be countered in any number of ways it probably never will be, because lists that ARE tourney winners will be able to counter it and do it emphatically, as they do against everything else. Power-Tau, for instance; how many Battlewagons are you going to get across the table while you're being pounded with Markerlit S10 AP1 shots from however-many inches away? What about the Piranhas; those things are going to be on you so fast you haven't got a hope in hell of stopping it, and when they get there your Wagons will be dealing with Melta in addition to Markerlit S10 boom-boom. THen, of course, there are the Battlesuits to consider. They just have too much on the table.

So, yeah. It's not about how well you do, or how well such and such a list does, because lord knows a new player can take the best list in the world and horse every game they play with it within the first two turns. It's about stacking up the cans and cannots of different Codexes against one another, and when you start doing that you realise that Orks, whilst they come out a lot better than some in a lot of ways (including my beloved Daemonhunters :( ) they just have too many holes in their abilities to be called "competetive". Simply put, you should be able to build a list from a competetive Codex that, with the right player, can be used against anything else and have at least a 50-50 chance of success. You just can't do that with the Ork 'Dex, in any way, because there's too much they just can't do consistently.

This is just hilarious. Just something like month ago, we had a long thread about how Tau suck, and will lose especially against Orks. Now, apparently, Orks have no chance against Tau. That's some turnaround.

Frank Fugger wrote:
How can/ will it be "quickly limited"? I can move each of my Land Raiders 12" and still fire a single weapon; which, given the gak your Wagons are carrying, will probably be 12" towards your Wagons and the Multimelta. OH NO don't shoot at me with BS2 rockets or charge me needing 6's to hit, assuming you can SnP far enough!

Please, stop mentioning rockets when you reply to my posts. I never use them.
I will catch your Land Raider. With Ghaz I can charge his unit, and every other Ork unit in a Battlewagon, 26 inches. I understand I will need sixes to hit, but please you understand that the base MANZ model has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. These are going to be at strength 9 and their are going to be 20-36 depending on the unit size. Then also understand there are going to be 7 strength 10 attacks from Ghaz.
Sorry, but at that point your Raider is going to be done.

At some point, that LR is going to have to sit still and claim an objective.

Frank Fugger wrote:In which case your AV14 players are doing it wrong.

No we play them just fine thank you. I love the Raider Spam as much as the next guy. I love how you guys blast my 400-600 point unit BW list, then you come at me with Land Raider spam. There are a lot of similarities.

Frank Fugger wrote:Assuming you can bring those multiples to bear. Multiple bolter shots will eventually end your Battlewagons; multiple lascannon and Multimelta shots will do it quicker, and from further away. And while moving.

Most of my Army charges on Turn 2. Your gonna stop 4+ Battlwagons in 2 turns or less? Never mind where they were deployed.

Frank Fugger wrote:I feel you, man. Honestly I do. I used to think throwing Calgar into a list so's I could choose when my Smurfs ran away was the done thing too, until I realised that, for the same amount of points, I could get a Land Raider. Or a kitted out Sternguard squad in a Drop Pod. Or two and a half Melta Dreadpods. Never looked back since.

I have never brought Calgar so I would not know.

Frank Fugger wrote:And so we come to the pertinent point in the whole shebang. It's far from being a tournament winner. See below.

Yet. I have only used versions of it in 3 Tournaments so far. A little more tweaking and training, I see potential.

Frank Fugger wrote:
What the feth is Tier 3? Tier systems are bollocks. It's not a matter of Tiers; you're always going to be able to make an army list from any book that can beat a certain set-up from another book. Hell, I reckon I could take your Wagon-spam list to any gaming club in the land and, once I'd gotten a handle on the nuances of it, give most lists a run for their money. Most lists that weren't set up purely to win games, with all the fat trimmed off and all possible streamlining done. Thing is, there aren't many books from which you can make an army list that will handle anything that's thrown at it. The Eldar codex is one. The Tau codex is another. Smurfs and ChaoSmurfs do well, as do Mech Sisters, Space Wolves, and, to an extent, Radical Daemonhunters (as long as your Allied Smurf contingent is heavy and you take the right Elites). Orks don't. They just don't. There's a difference between being able to

You want me to follow the thread properly... oh wait, I see what you are doing here. Nice accent, it almost translates into type.

Dude, you just listed like more than half of the codices!

Frank Fugger wrote:Power-Tau's Heavy Support and Fast Attack units are probably going to have your entire army list handled before it's gotten halfway across the board.

I have won a couple of Tournaments with Tau so don't feel like I am not a believer. Maybe I just found to many exploitable holes playing them so much. Their LD is their death.

Frank Fugger wrote:What you need to realise here is that nobody is attacking your abilities as a player. feth that, if you can manage to wrangle a win from a Mechdar list with a load of Battlewagons and some MANs then you must be doing something right. You are, however, the exception rather than the rule, and if you ARE winning games then it's down to you; and possibly your opponents. Certainly your opponents, because if they're running AV14 properly you shouldn't be able to touch them, much less whup them time and again.

What people are saying is that the Ork Codex has a lot of fatal flaws. You can see it yourself; the Wagon-spam list ain't a tourney winner, and given the fact (I'm assuming) it relies on a set principle (close in, Tank Shock, release the fatties) which can be countered in any number of ways it probably never will be, because lists that ARE tourney winners will be able to counter it and do it emphatically, as they do against everything else. Power-Tau, for instance; how many Battlewagons are you going to get across the table while you're being pounded with Markerlit S10 AP1 shots from however-many inches away? What about the Piranhas; those things are going to be on you so fast you haven't got a hope in hell of stopping it, and when they get there your Wagons will be dealing with Melta in addition to Markerlit S10 boom-boom. THen, of course, there are the Battlesuits to consider. They just have too much on the table.

So, yeah. It's not about how well you do, or how well such and such a list does, because lord knows a new player can take the best list in the world and horse every game they play with it within the first two turns. It's about stacking up the cans and cannots of different Codexes against one another, and when you start doing that you realise that Orks, whilst they come out a lot better than some in a lot of ways (including my beloved Daemonhunters :( ) they just have too many holes in their abilities to be called "competetive". Simply put, you should be able to build a list from a competetive Codex that, with the right player, can be used against anything else and have at least a 50-50 chance of success. You just can't do that with the Ork 'Dex, in any way, because there's too much they just can't do consistently.

I think I will be okay, thanks for caring.

I guess I feel like I can build a competitive list from the Ork codex and use it against anything else and have at least a 50-50 chance of success. So there!

I am yet to see an Ork list I'm worried by, speaking from the perspective of my MechDar. 9 Grav Tanks @1750 beats 9 Killa Kans, 2 Deff Dreads, 2 KFFs, 24 Lootas, and 90 Shootas...

And that's the best Ork list I've played against. Nothing else has the requisite frontage to reduce my mobility, or the survivability. Battlewagons can't take Bright Lances in a race, and MANs vs Fire Dragons and Yriel only ends one way...

Backfire wrote:This is just hilarious. Just something like month ago, we had a long thread about how Tau suck, and will lose especially against Orks. Now, apparently, Orks have no chance against Tau. That's some turnaround.

Welcome to dakkadakka!

From Frank's perspective, no Ork army should be able to beat ANY list that contains a landraider. Either the player with a land raider is bad, or got very unlucky. Don't you all find that a little bit ridiculous?

I gotta admit, it's kinda hard to listen to your ramblings when you aren't even an Ork player yourself. All you are doing is saying blanket statements like "LOOK AT ALL THESE NASTY TAU UNITS! ORKS CANNOT BEAT THEM!" without any real reasoning. You just seem to be naming units from other codexes and going "LOOK HOW MUCH THIS UNIT CRUSHES ORKS!!". I've yet to really read a compelling argument from you except statements like "ORKS JUST AREN'T A COMPETITIVE CODEX".

You don't even seem to be able to put a list together on your own, and I must say, playing a codex in many many games does a lot more for evaluating their effectiveness than playing against somebody's Ork list or simply reading their codex.

skipdog172 wrote:From Frank's perspective, no Ork army should be able to beat ANY list that contains a landraider. Either the player with a land raider is bad, or got very unlucky. Don't you all find that a little bit ridiculous?

Who are you talking to? I'm over here, mate; talk to me. Don't worry about them, they'll make their own mind up.

I gotta admit, it's kinda hard to listen to your ramblings when you aren't even an Ork player yourself.

I'm not an Ork player out and out, but I do dabble. I'm mostly a DH player though, which means I know how it feels to have a gakky Codex that can't hang with the big boys, to try and tell yourself that the only reason you don't win tournaments or events against streamlined comp lists is because you weren't good enough on the day, and then to one day realise, after switching armies for a while, that it's feth all to do with you; it's about the huge, gaping holes in your Codexes capabilities and GW's insistence upon adding to them by skewing the game so's they can sell more tank kits.

It's not that I can't win games with my DH or Grey Knights. I can win games all day long. I just can't answer a lot of the questions a competetive environment asks of you with the tools I have to hand.

All you are doing is saying blanket statements like "LOOK AT ALL THESE NASTY TAU UNITS! ORKS CANNOT BEAT THEM!" without any real reasoning.

I thought my last post contained an in-depth look at why Battlewagons are not a good idea against Power-Tau. Named individual units in doing it, sure, but how else are you supposed to compare list to list without naming units? Stack up the copncepts they run on? Okay, let's do that then; Power-Tau have expendable Troops units and a fething gak-ton of S6+ weaponry, can split their fire, have Melta weapons, and can both run you ragged AND stand and plug away. Battlewagon spam seems to rely on moving the Battlewagons and MANs into B2B with your opponent as fast as possible, and I'm not really sure how you'd go about that when you've got S10 AP1 gak pounding you from the corner of the board or Melta weapons being Fast Skimmered into your face.

You just seem to be naming units from other codexes and going "LOOK HOW MUCH THIS UNIT CRUSHES ORKS!!". I've yet to really read a compelling argument from you except statements like "ORKS JUST AREN'T A COMPETITIVE CODEX".

If you think statements like "ORKS JUST AREN'T A COMPETITIVE CODEX" are compelling arguments, which is what you seem to be suggesting here, then I question the need to work any harder to convince you.

And turn your caps lock off, you child.

You don't even seem to be able to put a list together on your own, and I must say, playing a codex in many many games does a lot more for evaluating their effectiveness than playing against somebody's Ork list or simply reading their codex.

So what, I'm going to go out and drop £200 on Wagon-spam models to play-test a list I don't even know for the sake of lending a bit more credence to my argument that Orks aren't competetive?

Piss off. You've got my opinion, and it seems to me that it's an opinion shared by a lot of other folk on this site. Note, not one I've convinced them of, but rather one they've reached on their own. The only people who don't seem to share it are the folk who seem to think that because they win games with their Orks, that somehow makes the Codex fine. I win games with my Daemonhunters. I've been trouncing my mate's Mordians since the new Codex came out, and I've beaten Tau players, Eldar players, Sisters, Smurfs (fething easy pickings... don't charge Grey Knights with your gakky powerfist Tactical Squad, kids, it ends in tears for you), ChaoSmurfs. Does that mean Daemonhunters are a competetive army? Our resident Tyranids player hasn't lost a game to my DH yet since I started playing again (fething Zoanthropes... >_< Does that mean Nids are a competetive Codex? What about Necrons, I've lost a few games to them too.

Competetiveness has feth all to do with your personal experience of playing the army. It has everything to do with stacking the capabilities of Codexes up against one another and seeing how each one answers the questions the other ones pose. Fact is, like a lot of the other Codexes (over half of them, apparently ), there are a lot of questions you can ask of Orks that they have no answer to. AV14 is one. Long range firepower is another. Variety is yet another. The list, she goes on.

skipdog172 wrote:From Frank's perspective, no Ork army should be able to beat ANY list that contains a landraider. Either the player with a land raider is bad, or got very unlucky. Don't you all find that a little bit ridiculous?

Yes.

Save your breath, skipdog. You'd be better off painting or something than arguing with this lot. They're convinced.

If your group plays Deffrollas work on vehicles then they are a good way of dealing with Landraiders.


Honestly its one vehicle seriously, one, one vehicle.

One specific type as well the Lascannon doesnt honestly do much versus orks sure against Battlewagons its sort of good.


This whole ORKS SUCK bEAUCE MARinaez have these AV14 is ridiculous and needs to stop.


You know what Marines are useless against Marines DONT EVER PLAY MARINEZ DUDERZ. Redeemers and Crusaders are going to be moving forward towards your delicious str 9 powerclaws. If you have tankbustas Great.

But heres the thing, a good army (composition score) should have a variety of units and not maxed out land raiders or maxed out meganobz, so no matter whats on the other side of the table two or three units working together should be able to kill it in a turn.

For instance, rokkits try stun or immobilize landraider, nobz jump out trukk and try to kill it, (hitting automatically) while this is happening blocks of boys or what ever are threatening the rest of the army, giving two choices get bogged down by horde or get killed nobz mob. a regular nobz mob can achieve a lot.

oh and I didn't say any of the antitank units were reliable, just fun. 2 warp heads in most types of mobz (for the leadership boost) can cause a lot of amusing havoc. make one zogwort. Hah your a squig now Calgar!

methoderik wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

If they moved more than 6"... Still that is 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit... yeah not to scary!?

And if they Kill Ghaz and 9 MANZ after, then well they deserved it. Typically though, some those 18 toughness 4 2+save wounds and 4 toughness 5 2+ save wounds make it through. What you are forgetting is that this is turn 2, and you have just been hit with 3 other Battlewagons as well.

actually the 5-8 th/ss termiantors that fell out of the raider you just popped will do a good amount of damage to your meganobz. 3+ invul > no invul. Also any spare melta's floating around will toast a few of those nobz before the charge.

All of this arguing is pointless. Dice, mission, opponents, and the multitude of other factors will be what decide's who wins. Ard boyz is this week. Wait till saturday night and we will see how the orks fare.

skipdog172 wrote:I must say, playing a codex in many many games does a lot more for evaluating their effectiveness than playing against somebody's Ork list or simply reading their codex.

Of course.

Elessar wrote:Generally - I own over 10k of Orks. I've played 5th with them maybe a hundred times. Orks cannot, and I can't stress this enough CANNOT reliably beat a list with 2+ Land Raiders. One can be dodged, or fluked, but 2 or more, and you may as well throw in the towel-squig, and watch someone else's game, and not waste everyone's time. Anyone who recommends Tankbustas isn't half as good as they think they are - maybe if they didn't take up a Loota spot, maybe if they didn't cost more than 8 points each, maybe if they weren't the easiest thing in the world to counter because, oh look, most things have more range.

Orks can be good. But they aren't as good as Eldar, SM, CSM, DE, IG, WH...basically, as Stelek says on the issue. Killla Kans get killed by Melta on a 3+, and please find me a Melta weapon that doesn't get more than a glance on AV11 reliably.

Relying on a boarding plank to REACH nevermind damage a Rhino, let alone a LR is naive at best. When ramming a Battlewagn feels like the best bet, you should just give up and cry. Also, Warpheadz are bigger fail than all 3 Star Wars prequels without the final special effects put in yet. They redefine fail as a concept - and they're still 10x better than a regular Wierdboy.

Oh look, already covered that one, next?

I think KhornateDemon has the right idea - hopefully we'll have evidence you can only begrudgingly disregard in a few days...

So what changes need to be made?

Make tankbustas none-slowed (maybe change glory hogs to a leadership test if they WANT to shoot at non-tanks - let them still run if they want to), and tankhunters? Give them access to transportation (why the hell can't they take a trukk anyway)?

Make the Zzap gun non-gak - maybe something like D6+2 Strength, 2d6 pen? Bit worse than a Bright Lance.. Orkishly random.

I think it would be interesting to identify all the clearly gobshite units of the various codices (ie the units that even the most casual of player sees and goes "lol this is so bad") and apply some non-official updating - could be fun to run a Vassal tournament or some such using the modifications.

Oh and nice blog Elessar, might make it a regular stop =]

Thanks

I think that's a good idea actually, I'd gladly participate, although I have to many projects on the way to start the thread myself.

Kannons should be Ordnance though. Burnas in Transports, Battlewagons and Eavy Armour for any Troops Boyz...Artillery outside Force Org, with Wierdboyz also outside...Lotas in Looted Wagons dedicated (fluffy and fun)...KMBs get Melta and small blast...Tankhammers all round...Bomb Squigs in Grots...

Elessar wrote:Thanks

I think that's a good idea actually, I'd gladly participate, although I have to many projects on the way to start the thread myself.

Kannons should be Ordnance though. Burnas in Transports, Battlewagons and Eavy Armour for any Troops Boyz...Artillery outside Force Org, with Wierdboyz also outside...Lotas in Looted Wagons dedicated (fluffy and fun)...KMBs get Melta and small blast...Tankhammers all round...Bomb Squigs in Grots...

Stormboyz should be cheaper. Kommandos should be cheaper. Warbikers should be cheaper. Boyz weapon upgrades should be cheaper or even free. Flash Gitz should have higher str weapondry. Battlewagons should be cheaper and taken as dedicated vehicles for boyz or gitz as well as nobs. Rockitts should be useful (either cheaper to facilitate more of them or higher strength). They should do something about the lack of consolidate after assaulting a vehicle OR give orks more methods to crack them open before a charge.

Boyz should also be +1 STR getting STR5 on the charge, not STR4. And flashgits should be BS3, because they practice with their gunz!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And someone needs to teach orks what melta means.

@Kevinnash

Wishlist much? Stormboyz already dropped 3 points in the newest book. Bikes dropped 5pts. in the new book. Battlewagons became much more usable (i.e. you can take up to 8 in a list now). Orks are fine.

@Dash

If they had stayed 9 points then your suggestion would be valid about st4 but at 6pts that's insane.

Orks have probably one of the best written codexes out there. I wish Phil Kelly wrote every codex!

Tankbustas need Tankhunters back. Even increase their points a little if necessary, but then get rid of "Glory Hogs". It's a stupid rule, only put in there to shoehorn a unit that is now a poor tank killing into a unit that can do nothing but kill tanks.

Zzap guns should be melta.

KMB need something. Either blast or melta.

Weirdboys need something, even if it's just becoming a squad upgrade no longer worth a Kill Point.

Flash gits desperately need another shot from their Snazzguns. They and MANs both need access to bosspoles. Cybork body might be a nice one for the MANs too.

Ghazghkull should come with a Waaagh Banner (and cost 15 points more). A Big Mek on a warbike should allow bikes to be taken as troops.

Looted wagons and Battlewagons should have cheaper weapon options. Deffrollas should affect vehicles with FA13 or less.

There should be no restriction on Ard Boys, and Grots should be able to be taken outside of the force organization chart.

Rokkits should be 5 points for squads of boys.

I'd say it's a good codex overall though. One of the best, if you discount a rather large number of typos and rules errors that needed to get ironed out. There's better internal balance with the Orks than there is with most armies. Nearly everything is useful.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kevinnash

Wishlist much?

Well that was the point of my post.

Stormboyz already dropped 3 points in the newest book. Bikes dropped 5pts. in the new book.

Neither or them are particularly good or useful. Stormboyz are just as fragile as boyz yet cost twice as much. Bikes are far too easy to get running off the table, 3d6 inches. They either need to be more resilient or cost less.

Battlewagons became much more usable (i.e. you can take up to 8 in a list now).

You can technically take 8 but not realistically since they and the units that allow them to be taken as non-heavies cost far too much. It's extremely difficult even getting 3 into a decent list and that's with minimal upgrades.

Orks are fine.

They are pretty solid with some unfortunate weaknesses that some other armies are currently exploiting right now. They have some very nice units and several unplayable ones.

bah, if mech vulcans eat up all the raider armies, who care about them in the meta? While Orks can't kill Av14, it hardly matters when everyone else is melta/lance/rail spamming out of their ass.

Counter the metagame, not "random lists thrown into the mix"

Stormboyz are amazing. Yes they do cost twice as much as a normal boy but that price is reduced some when you consider your normally mounting said boyz in a transport. They are a guarenteed second turn charge, sometimes first turn. My stormboyz have never let me down but then again I field 2 units of 16 w/pk nobs supported by a large 12-man bike squad. The bike squads are amazing for the amount of shots and damage they can take. They also are big enough to get any vehicle a cover save except for battlewagons.

The only unplayable unit from day one has been flashgitz. I will give you that that unit is just a sad out of place panda in the book. Everything else has a place if used correctly.

The only thing being "exploited" is our lack of anti-AV14 but like the above poster said a lot of people are gearing up to take out LR's. Personally my GK's might start sitting the sidelines for a little while depending on my next few tournies because of all anti-LR guns out there. Every army shouldn't be able to do everything extremely well but that's what some people think Orks should be able to do.

DH armies are weaker than Orks.

Also, Wierdboyz are the worst unit, even Flash Gitz are better then the Possessed of the Ork Codex.