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I had a chance to read the new tyranid codex, and I am actually more pissed off than anything else. The giant bat of nerfdom was beat about the head of the carnifex. It has an identical stateline to the current one but costs 160 points. It does come with a pair of scything talons but its options are all but gone. Another tyranid player and I were reading it and we looked at eachother and said 'why would you ever take a carnifex? Get the trygon it's so much better' Then it hit me. How could you sell the expensive trygon models if the carnifeces were still a valid choice

You might take a Carnifex because you already have three...

Umm... you like them better fluff-wise?

Volkov wrote:Then it hit me. How could you sell the expensive trygon models if the carnifeces were still a valid choice

Thats why i dislike GW , they always do this type of things -_-

Can't the Carnifex still be a gun platform?

That's about the only thing going for it. It takes some pressure off the elite slots which have 2 of the "most wanted" anti armour guns. But it's still a rather lousy option.

Reading this makes me curious about what will happen when next generations of codexes that I'm familiar with come out. I haven't been around long enough to live through two editions of a codex to see changes of something I'm familiar with. *ponders orks*

I think the usual formula is to take something that was popularly considered over-powered in the previous codex and increase its price while decreasing its abilities. Or under-powered and decrease its price while increasing its abilities.

One would think that GW did this just to sell new kits, but that doesn't explain Chaos Space Marine Possessed, Chaos Spawn, Tau Stealth Suits and Skyrays, Grots and Stormboyz, etc.

Besides, as minigun762 points out, Carnifexes can still be useful as gun-beasts. I'm certainly pleased with my decision to build mine all with Barbed Stranglers and Scything Talons.

Nurglitch wrote:You might take a Carnifex because you already have three...

...or SIX sigh...

I'm certainly pleased with my decision to build mine all with Barbed Stranglers and Scything Talons.

IIRC the heavy venom cannon was a 25 point option and they had a bio plasma option which was essentially a plasma cannon with 12" range. I do not remember reading a barbed strangler option but I am not positive on that one

Oh and they can be in broods of 1-3, and they have a special rule living battering ram which gives them +2 initiative on the charge. But they are base initiative 1 so that really only allows you to not strike at the same time as powerfists for the first round of combat. Jaws of the wolf world are going to have alot of fun with carnifeces

I just wonder if it was a point increase simply to keep people from running 9 carnifex in an army. If not, it's unfortunate, as the Carnifex has been the epitome of monstrous creatures till now.

Maybe they increased it because it has a delivery system? Im certainly happy that my melee fex's can get to things now before dying on turn one either via tunnel or pods. My 113 elite melee fex was more of a point sink then a 165 point fex that can actually do something.

Ah man, a crying shame.

LunaHound wrote:

Volkov wrote:Then it hit me. How could you sell the expensive trygon models if the carnifeces were still a valid choice

Thats why i dislike GW , they always do this type of things -_-

QFT

I agree with what has been said, but GW is a business. How can you blame them for wanting to make money?

Another thing people are forgetting is the conversion potential in Carnifex models. They'll be needing them for Tervigons. No sales lost there.

Is there any word yet on what a Tervigon's actually supposed to look like?

Bigger than a breadbox, smaller than the space shuttle.

The fact that carnifexes were spammed in the previous edition should be a pretty good indication that they were undercosted.

I'm not saying the magnitude of the nerf is called for - that remains to be seen. But you had to know it was coming...

Perhaps rules get nerfed and buffed in order to make the lists play like the fluff? Orks are good if you play them to a theme such as Speed Freaks or Green Tide. Space Marines are good if you use meltas and Vulkan. Tyranids were good with many Carnifice and few troops. Clearly this wasn't how GW intended Nids to be played, so they attempted to make them closer to how they 'should' be played.

Of course following this logic, they really shot themselves in the foot when it comes to Chaos.

Volkov wrote:I had a chance to read the new tyranid codex, and I am actually more pissed off than anything else. The giant bat of nerfdom was beat about the head of the carnifex. It has an identical stateline to the current one but costs 160 points. It does come with a pair of scything talons but its options are all but gone. Another tyranid player and I were reading it and we looked at eachother and said 'why would you ever take a carnifex? Get the trygon it's so much better' Then it hit me. How could you sell the expensive trygon models if the carnifeces were still a valid choice

Well, it is done by the same person who did our IG codex...

I’m new to Tyranids but I think the point “increase” for Carnefexes is going to be difficult for long-time Tyranid players to come to grips with on a tactical level while newer Tyranid players, such as me, will be ok with.

In the previous codex Carnefex filled several rolls – lone gun platform, shock troop, or some combination thereof. In the new codex, that roll seems to be distributed among a variety of units. The Trygon/Mawlock seems to be the new “shock/terror” unit. The Elete slots seem to fill the roll of gun platform. This, in the mind of current Tyranid players, defeats the purpose of the Carnefex and, with the point “increase”, it seems less viable as a heavy slot choice.

As a new Tyranid player I see the roll of the Carnefex as entirely different from it’s previous. I believe the unit’s new roll is “spearhead”. It should always be taken in groups of two or three. Its function will then be to plow forward FORCING your opponent to address it… much like a Landriader filled with Terminators, you may be able to outmaneuver it if you’re a fast army, but unless you pour everything you have into it, it’s going to have its way with the battlefield.

When planning out my new Tyranid army I really struggled with the same concerns everyone else is bringing to light. Then I realized, the Carnefex isn’t a shiny new Mawlock bursting from the ground, shock troop fit to rocketed into my enemy via drop pod, or back-line gun platform: It’s the unmovable, unshakable, brutal core unit that advanced implacably forward. No shiny new bells. No noisy new whistles. Just raw Tyranid death moving toward you.

As a long-time Eldar player I will use a term we often ascribe to one of our strategies. The 3-Carnefex brood is the “Anvil” to the rest of your armies “hammer”.

As a new Tyranid player I see the roll of the Carnefex as entirely different from it’s previous. I believe the unit’s new roll is “spearhead”. It should always be taken in groups of two or three. Its function will then be to plow forward FORCING your opponent to address it… much like a Landriader filled with Terminators, you may be able to outmaneuver it if you’re a fast army, but unless you pour everything you have into it, it’s going to have its way with the battlefield.

+1
There seems to be more of role specifics in this codex then in the previous one.
And I for one am glad to get rid of all the booring nidzilla lists out there, its like the early IG armoured column, booring to play against and generally OP.

GW seems to use the all to common balancing approach often seen with Relic and their computer games.
If something is OP = nerf it to kingdom come while increase its costs making it virtually obsolete.
If something is UP = lower the price and give it such a buff that no army will be without a spam of said unit(s).

Rinse and repeat with every codex and it sure generates lots of sales but also frustrated players.
Its better to take the careful baby step approach to balance rather then the roller coaster of what will be OP/UP next time.

I imagine things like the totally worthless Legion of the damned will be a powerhouse unit in the next SM codex rather then become balanced.

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:I agree with what has been said, but GW is a business. How can you blame them for wanting to make money?

The problem is that "selling models" might not be the best design goal for rules if the end result is supposed to be a good game. They should concentrate on making the game great and let the enjoyment of the experience sell the models rather than artificially inserting selling models right into the game design.

I feel bad for a few of my friends who have bought over 6 Carnifexes,
but the little Space Marine inside me enjoys.

I’d just like to add to this conversation that I believe the premise that GW makes models it wants to sell OP to motivate people to buy them is a false one.

One of the most high-demand models in the new Tyranid codex is the Spore Pod. If GW’s strategy was to motivate players to purchase models through the value or power of the unit, it certainly succeeded. One problem though – there IS no Spore Pod model.

Conversely, the Valkyrie/Vandetta is widely considered a somewhat underpowered/overcosted niche unit by most veteran IG players. The model kit however, happens to be one of the more expensive 40k kits GW makes and almost every guard player I know owns one or more simply because they like the model.

Similarly, many IG players would regard the strength of the army lying within its tank and artillery choices and yet again, GW doesn’t even MAKE many of them.

I believe the notion that GW makes certain models extremely powerful as a mechanism to drive sales is unfounded and perpetuated by a combination of general lack of understanding of business strategy in the broad 40k/fantasy community and inaccurate perceptions about what constitutes a powerful unit within the context of an army.

To my mind, Carnfexen aren't very good anvils. Power claws and no retreat wounds see them off too easily.

nyyman wrote:I feel bad for a few of my friends who have bought over 6 Carnifexes,
but the little Space Marine inside me enjoys.

Really? I think an army built around 2 or 3 units of 3-Carnefx broods will be incredibly competitive. In KP mission, you’re looking at an army that sits at around 6 or 7 kill points – about half of what even a small Space marine army is. In objective based missions, you have the ability to push your opponent off or contest 3 objectives while leaving your troops in reserve to minimize the punishment they take over the course of the battle.

I would not be surprised in the least to see 3 units of 3-Carnefex broods paired with 2 squads of max-size gaunts or genesteelers lead by whatever HQ choice fits becoming the new “biker-nob” calabur tournament army.

old cost + mycetic spore [whatever its called] = imba

new cost = decent.

brood instead of solo model is nice as well since that helps alleviate the wounds being thrown on the lone carni and killing it from a hth where you have gants [yes termigants ] and carni..

Honestly carnifex are still good.

Da Boss wrote:To my mind, Carnfexen aren't very good anvils. Power claws and no retreat wounds see them off too easily.

Can you elaborate? If I were faced with an anvil of ANY sort, I’d look to tarpit it. Unless your army contains some awesome uber-unit, I’m not sure there’s a better way to deal with an anvil. Even still, even a cheap 30-man squad of nobs+ power klaw nob getting the charge ends up TAKING no retreat wounds as opposed to giving them in most cases against a 3-large brood of carnefexes.

Heaven help the ork player who slams into a brood of carnefexes with a 10-man squad of power klaw nobs. The fex’s strike first instant killing 7 or 8 nobs before they even get to swing.