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Perhaps I'm wrong to base it on old carnifex stats, but when charging more than one carnifex I usually use more than one mob. Nobs mobs I would never equip with all powerclaws, max would be 2 + a Warboss in the mob. 10 Nobs can pretty handily take down 2 carnifexes in one round (they'll take some losses though) and a mob of boys can hit the other one and easily floor it.

Obviously, it takes some co-ordination to pull off, but when playing Nidzilla currently I've never not been able to do it, and they aren't even forced to cluster like a brood would be.

This is ork specific, of course. I'd probably have a lot more trouble taking down three carnifex with my death gaurd.
Hope that makes my thoughts clearer. I am open to being proved wrong in game of course, but that's how I'd counter a carnifex brood with orks.

incarna wrote:Conversely, the Valkyrie/Vandetta is widely considered a somewhat underpowered/overcosted niche unit by most veteran IG players.

Compare the cost and options to a Chaos Daemons Daemon Prince. They cost too little to begin with in my mind, and being a few points too expensive, while highly subjective, doesn't make them unplayable by any stretch. Nidzilla was a ridiculous army that needed to be worked out (again, IMO). I think any Tyranid player who has seen other 5th ed Codexes had to see this coming.

Mahu's experience with Carnifexes in test games is very favorable, and he considers them to fill an essential role in the Codex. So don't despair too much, Carnifex fans-- some people with hands-on experience consider them a vital unit to bring to the battle! I suspect that, like most options in new Codices, the Carnifex will not be useless. It may not be the absolute mainstay that it once was, but that was to be expected.

Da Boss wrote:Perhaps I'm wrong to base it on old carnifex stats, but when charging more than one carnifex I usually use more than one mob. Nobs mobs I would never equip with all powerclaws, max would be 2 + a Warboss in the mob. 10 Nobs can pretty handily take down 2 carnifexes in one round (they'll take some losses though) and a mob of boys can hit the other one and easily floor it.

Obviously, it takes some co-ordination to pull off, but when playing Nidzilla currently I've never not been able to do it, and they aren't even forced to cluster like a brood would be.

This is ork specific, of course. I'd probably have a lot more trouble taking down three carnifex with my death gaurd.
Hope that makes my thoughts clearer. I am open to being proved wrong in game of course, but that's how I'd counter a carnifex brood with orks.

I’ll completely agree that a lone carnefex is almost certainly fodder for a wide range of ork units. I think that fielding a carnefex alone as opposed to in a brood of 3 is a mistake on behalf of the Tyranid player’s part given my perception of the role of the Carnefex within the new codex.

Of course, everything we’re discussing is purely speculative. A brood of carnefex’s will probably fall to a charge from multiple ork units. It will also probably fall to a squad of thunderhammer/storm shield terminators. It will also probably fall to a seer council. It'll probably fall to a 3-large vehicle squadron of those 5-shot plasma tanks (can't remember their name) so common in IG armies these days.

But, forgetting for a moment how you would deal with an anvil, wouldn’t you agree that an anvil is the best place for the carnefex? And, pound for pound, they fill that roll as good or better than most other anvil units out there?

I think it has a role as a brood, certainly- it would leave me vunerable to all sorts of counter assualt to attack it.

I also think it has a role deep striking in and killing tanks though. With the re-rolls and the strength, coupled with monstrous creature status, you've got something that could fairly easily deal with most tanks in the game, and that's something Nids needed. (I love the idea of a carnifex charging through an armoured column, too).

Check out Mahu's thread where he used one to this effect quite well. Nids need a way to crack heavy transports (battlewagons and land raiders) and a podding carnifex could do that.

Da Boss wrote:I think it has a role as a brood, certainly- it would leave me vunerable to all sorts of counter assualt to attack it.

I also think it has a role deep striking in and killing tanks though. With the re-rolls and the strength, coupled with monstrous creature status, you've got something that could fairly easily deal with most tanks in the game, and that's something Nids needed. (I love the idea of a carnifex charging through an armoured column, too).

Check out Mahu's thread where he used one to this effect quite well. Nids need a way to crack heavy transports (battlewagons and land raiders) and a podding carnifex could do that.

I thought that that might be a good roll for the Carnefex but then I considered that roll against my perceived roll of other units within the codex. (This is how I analyze armies. Being an Eldar player, I’ve been trained to look for unit “roles”).

If you want to pop vehicles in this way, wouldn’t a Trygon/Mawlock perform this roll nearly equally as well and for cheaper minus the point cost of the drop pod which also, incidentally, counts as a kill point? Similarly, a brood of Yimgnral (sp?) Steelers can do this too (to lower AV targets) and have the added benefit of being able to assault on the turn they come into play (so it is rumored anyway).

I’m not disagreeing with the principle – my wave-serpent mounted fire dragons perform a similar roll. And there’s nothing that I know of that puts a player into a panic more than the realization that; “oh hey! There’s a completely unwounded Carnefex knocking on my front door.”

I think, if the rest of the nid force is designed to support such a tactic, it’s very viable.

Double post (what is wrong with this cogicator)

I dont play tyranids but I hope people still take Fexes, I mean theyre one of the coolest units in 40K and theyre fun to play against. So yeah, all you Tyranid players, take them even if theyre crap eh?

frozenwastes wrote:

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:I agree with what has been said, but GW is a business. How can you blame them for wanting to make money?

The problem is that "selling models" might not be the best design goal for rules if the end result is supposed to be a good game. They should concentrate on making the game great and let the enjoyment of the experience sell the models rather than artificially inserting selling models right into the game design.

Oh the naïveté. Soon you'll understand what an evil Empire GW really is, and defect to the Alliance. In the mean time, you get to enjoy incredable miniatures.

Nurglitch wrote:I think the usual formula is to take something that was popularly considered over-powered in the previous codex and increase its price while decreasing its abilities. Or under-powered and decrease its price while increasing its abilities.

One would think that GW did this just to sell new kits, but that doesn't explain Chaos Space Marine Possessed, Chaos Spawn, Tau Stealth Suits and Skyrays, Grots and Stormboyz, etc.

It doesn't need to. The truth is GW does exactly what your first sentence describes, they're just bad at it, leading to what your second sentence describes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the usual formula is to take something that was popularly considered over-powered in the previous codex and increase its price while decreasing its abilities. Or under-powered and decrease its price while increasing its abilities.

One would think that GW did this just to sell new kits, but that doesn't explain Chaos Space Marine Possessed, Chaos Spawn, Tau Stealth Suits and Skyrays, Grots and Stormboyz, etc.

It doesn't need to. The truth is GW does exactly what your first sentence describes, they're just bad at it, leading to what your second sentence describes.

Or maybe they just don’t do it at all.

Occam’s razor.

DarkHound wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:I agree with what has been said, but GW is a business. How can you blame them for wanting to make money?

The problem is that "selling models" might not be the best design goal for rules if the end result is supposed to be a good game. They should concentrate on making the game great and let the enjoyment of the experience sell the models rather than artificially inserting selling models right into the game design.

Oh the naïveté. Soon you'll understand what an evil Empire GW really is, and defect to the Alliance. In the mean time, you get to enjoy incredable miniatures.

Zuh? I already don't play any of GW rules. I use some of their miniatures for better rules. I use whatever manufacturer's miniatures I like with whomever's rules I like.

My main problem with GW rules is that they purposefully devalue their own products. My 2nd edition tournament Space Marine army had 30 models in it. If I were to make one now, I'd probably be looking at 60-90. With every codex and rules edition GW is finding more ways to increase the number of purchases needed to play the "standard" sized game. Take the latest edition of WFB-- switching from requiring 4 models accross to 5 means you need 25% more models to get the same rank bonus. Combine that with points reductions in some of the models that work best with full rank bonus and you have a great marketting tool in the form of the rules.

I have this wierd idea that rules should be designed for the enjoyment of the game rather than to sell more models. It's an alien concept to many GW koolaid drinkers, I'm sure.

So I tend to stick to rules made by people that don't sell models. I use Fantasy Rules! Tournament and Campaign Edition for my old WFB and LotR collections. FAD and 5150 are good picks for my 40k stuff. Warmachine and Hordes are pretty much the only exception to this as they have not yet fully embraced GW's "rules for selling rather than fun" shenanigans, though they are starting to head in that direction

frozenwastes wrote:Zuh? I already don't play any of GW rules. I use some of their miniatures for better rules. I use whatever manufacturer's miniatures I like with whomever's rules I like.

My main problem with GW rules is that they purposefully devalue their own products. My 2nd edition tournament Space Marine army had 30 models in it. If I were to make one now, I'd probably be looking at 60-90. With every codex and rules edition GW is finding more ways to increase the number of purchases needed to play the "standard" sized game. Take the latest edition of WFB-- switching from requiring 4 models accross to 5 means you need 25% more models to get the same rank bonus. Combine that with points reductions in some of the models that work best with full rank bonus and you have a great marketting tool in the form of the rules.

I have this wierd idea that rules should be designed for the enjoyment of the game rather than to sell more models. It's an alien concept to many GW koolaid drinkers, I'm sure.

So I tend to stick to rules made by people that don't sell models. I use Fantasy Rules! Tournament and Campaign Edition for my old WFB and LotR collections. FAD and 5150 are good picks for my 40k stuff. Warmachine and Hordes are pretty much the only exception to this as they have not yet fully embraced GW's "rules for selling rather than fun" shenanigans, though they are starting to head in that direction

Dude, 5th edition 40K is a very fun game, despite the often vague or contradicting rules. Why are you on the 40K forum if you don't play 40K?

Back on topic, I agree with Fetterkey that the Carnifex is still competitive. In the test games I have played with friends it's been a great fire support unit.

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:
Dude, 5th edition 40K is a very fun game, despite the often vague or contradicting rules. Why are you on the 40K forum if you don't play 40K?

Yes, 5th edition is fun. I've played it a few times and as long as you don't take it seriously and intentionally ignore it's short comings, it can be fun. As the rules set at the centre of a larger hobby, I thinkit has too many failings to satisfy me.

I *want* to play 40k, but it's just not there quality wise. The rules are designed to sell well rather than play well. I love the background and the imagery and the models (Plastic gargoyles = awesome).

But you're still right. This thread is about the rules, which I currently don't play. It wasn't my place to comment negatively on them.

You all have my apologies.

The Carni won't get killed if you sit them between the Land Raider's lascannons so they'll be safe that way.

The 'Carni nerf is nothing but a businesse decsicion. There will be a few new people getting into Tyranids, but the Majority will already be 'Nid players. So how do you get most of those 'Nid players who already have more than 3 'Carnis to buy more of them.

You nerf the current build so the models that are already made are obsolete, and you have to buy the Mawloc now. GW don't care if you use Carni's or not, you will be buying more Carnifex kit so you can make the other models for it.

Maybe the Carnifex is obsolet for the current Tyraind players, but the Carnifex kit is not Obsolete for GW since people will be buying it and other kits to make the other Tyranid units.

I like them.

I've used two Dakkafexes and they've both done very well. Having more shots and causing a -1 to LD is a big deal. Being bumped up to A4 is also really nice. Having access to psychic powers that lower the WS and BS of enemy units to 1 is awesome as it means your Fexes are more survivable against dedicated MC hunters while giving even the Dakkafex and other non CC dedicated MC's the ability to wreck in close combat, especially on the charge.

The way things are going, it looks like GW is trying to turn it into "Imperialhammer 40K", which will soon thereafter be shortened to "Spacemarine 40K", which, in turn, will be shortened AGAIN to simply "Ultrahammer 40K" where the Blue Spehss Mehrens with the yellow trim fight the Blue Spehss Mehrens with green trim.

If they keep nerf-raping their codi like this, it's going to turn into Bankrupthammer pretty soon.

I did some thinking, and we're probably all over-reacting. These new Carnifexi are going to be monsterous. On the charge they will re-roll hits while swinging S10 I4 attacks. Furious Charge and the Living Battering Ram rule are going to be huge on the tabletop. They're going to outperform the current Carnifexi in CC, and while they may not do as well at range there will be the Tyranofex for that. Less durable, maybe, but not less potent.

What, Dakka Dakka over-react? Unpossible.

Nurglitch wrote:What, Dakka Dakka over-react? Unpossible.

I havn't seen anyone really over react here lol. Now the question is, did they over react on Whineseer?

Thats cool that you dont like the new carnifex, theres only about 5235123522 other options in the codex for you to have fun with.

let's see, four carni's barebones costs you 640. Add two Tervi's with catalyst- 990. Add 60 gaunts - 1290. Add a Trygon- 1490. Add six zoats- 1850, alpha w/ bonesword- 1940 with some points to spend.

Lets see- seven mc's, two of them that can grant other MC's FNP, two gaunt units that derpstrike in pods- that need to be shot in order to remove from the field, a trygon, and six nasty anti-tank dudes, and two general meanies for choppin' stuff.

Besides the gaunts (which could truthfully be made smaller/ replaced mostly with geneis and warriors) that is a lot of stuff competing to be shot at with anti-tank. If you get more warriors, and attach the alphas to them, allocate the odd missile/las would to the alpha, and rejoice in the fact that they are not shooting your MC's.

This is also an extremely sub-par list that looks like it can be fun- and it includes four carni's! and they can -gasp!- roflstomp things that charge the rest of your line. What happens when termies come to make them hurt? well, gaunt shield them, and let them gobble the softies. What happens when you meet orks? two things- Give your Tervi's toxic miasma- If they both assault, the orcs are now making two-toughness tests per orc. a greater then 50% chance for them to fail/ then back up w/ the potentially FNP gaunts/Carni's and watch the blood fly. '

Play around.

I can see GW changing stats to sell new models, but I don't think they're very good at it. Pyrovore is a new release and pretty terrible.

Fex still seems decent enough to use.

The only thing about that list Mekniakal is that you leave yourself basically no room for biomorphs and spore pods. That's a problem that people seem to be running into when making tyranid lists in these past couple days, once you get all the MCs that you want piled in you run out of points real fast.