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Hey everyone. While at the comic shop with a friend I found a Wych squad on the shelf and out of surprise of seeing one of these boxes in a store and long-time want for a Dark Eldar army I got it. Does anyone have any advice or recommendations on how to use these units in an army?

Hey there.

1. Look in the Tactica section - Thor665 has written an incredible Dark Eldar tactics guide.

Second, you use them in one of two ways: As elite slots for a kabal, or as troop choices for a wych cult. I just took my Dark Eldar to a Grand Tournament in California this past weekend; you're free to see how I use them by reading my battle reports:

Here's the first one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/290643.page

wyches work well as sort of a support / flank charger. they also play a neat psycological role, as in my expierence, alot of people are afraid of them. i usually take a unit of 10, upgrade the succubus with an agonizer, throw in the goblet of spite, and give the unit a pair of blasters. fly them around the edge of the map and look to hit any weak stand and shoot units, or to support your archon and his incubi. the other use for them is as diversion. make them obvious targets, and people (who are scared of them) will direct as much as they can at stopping them. meanwhile, your more valuable and deadly incubi will get into combat and mince the bejesus out of the core of thier army. ive done this, and it works awsome, is take 2 units of 10 bare bones, no upgrade wyches. just give em raiders. then make it very clear "these raiders have wyches" and deploy them behind cover, but as far foward as possible. then do what you can to "make a beeline" towards the enemy. the response should be ALOT of shooting, and moving of troops to get rid of, or avoid the wyches. meanwhile archon and company take out everything else. if he ignores the wyches, well, 20 of them even with no upgrades can mess up his lines pretty darn well. if they die to shooting "oh darn... my 120 point squad of wyches died....shucks...." </insert evil grin ></> "oh look my 300pt+ unit of incubi is assaulting and killing your commander...and his body gaurd...and your troops...and your devs...."

hope that helps..have fun and good luck : )

DarthSpader wrote:wyches work well as sort of a support / flank charger. they also play a neat psycological role, as in my expierence, alot of people are afraid of them. i usually take a unit of 10, upgrade the succubus with an agonizer, throw in the goblet of spite, and give the unit a pair of blasters. fly them around the edge of the map and look to hit any weak stand and shoot units, or to support your archon and his incubi. the other use for them is as diversion. make them obvious targets, and people (who are scared of them) will direct as much as they can at stopping them. meanwhile, your more valuable and deadly incubi will get into combat and mince the bejesus out of the core of thier army. ive done this, and it works awsome, is take 2 units of 10 bare bones, no upgrade wyches. just give em raiders. then make it very clear "these raiders have wyches" and deploy them behind cover, but as far foward as possible. then do what you can to "make a beeline" towards the enemy. the response should be ALOT of shooting, and moving of troops to get rid of, or avoid the wyches. meanwhile archon and company take out everything else. if he ignores the wyches, well, 20 of them even with no upgrades can mess up his lines pretty darn well. if they die to shooting "oh darn... my 120 point squad of wyches died....shucks...." </insert evil grin ></> "oh look my 300pt+ unit of incubi is assaulting and killing your commander...and his body gaurd...and your troops...and your devs...."

hope that helps..have fun and good luck : )

Yeah, I'm going to encourage the OP to pretty much ignore this whole post, and go PM Thor665 and Clthomps to come post refutations and good advice. Its 1:00 AM and I'm getting yelled at by the wife to go to bed.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to encourage the OP to pretty much ignore this whole post, and go PM Thor665 and Clthomps to come post refutations and good advice. Its 1:00 AM and I'm getting yelled at by the wife to go to bed.

Know that feeling

yea ok. and the 95% win rate i have using this is wrong too. oh, and the 3 GT wins....whatever. ive been playing DE since before you were even a glimmer in your daddys eye. STFU.

Yes, nice, nice... and Dash is a Successful tournament player http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/290897.page for the most recent example.

Plase - try to refrain from swearing - whatever form you're trying to hide it in.

Interesting fact 60% of people can make up statistics on the spot.

Also, aren't you much more experienced at WHFB player? Hmm?

And finally fix your ork list, if you're sticking something up and asking for comments - don't defend every single thing people have pointed out - we all know YMMV and if you're getting soo much mileage out of everything then you'll never need any ones help

What is it about late night that brings out the jerk in people? Darth gave some advice from his personal experience. Let the OP decide if he wants to use it or not. If you absolutely must shoot someone else down there are ways of doing it without being insulting and completely writing them off as nothing compared to your own or someone elses advice. Even if jesus himself wrote a great dark eldar tactica other people are free to give their own advice and they might have seen or done something that jesus might have missed.

Where was the insult? I may not have coated my post in sugar but what part my post do you believe that one should take affront to?
And didn't you notice just how incredibly rude he was to the to the person who posted before him - true he's been playing almost TWO DECADES longer than him - But that's no reason to swear.


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Haha and you! Yes you try to give me solid post to respond to <3

first: ive been playing both whfb and 40k quite a long time. and i have a good record on both. as for my ork list they are a new army for me, roughly a year into them. before that i was dark eldar, pretty much since i could throw dice. second, i dont take kindly to people effectively stating im "wrong" and to "ignore" my advise. counter it, make alter arguments, suggest alternatives, but blatantly telling someone to ignore me is an insult i dont take lightly.

I also believe its 98% of stats are made up on the spot. and there was studys to proove it *cough*

as for my original post on the tactics, as mentioned im simply posting what has worked for me in the games ive played. many, many tournaments and trial and error has developed those methods. it also requires the support of other really nasty units, and minimizing your general weakness. if needed i can post my typical tourney list, and let the people decide. i wont do that here, since it's not an army list discussion on how to use DE, simply a request on wyches alone.

As for the swearing. I apologize if people take offense to it. But to those who would simply quote me as being flat out wrong and suggest im ignored...I stand by my four letter acronym.

I will start off with saying Thor666's tactica is very very good. Its a great primer for any new dark eldar player.

Personally I think that taking 10 man wych squads is a waste of points. I see them more as a 5 (7 max) model agonizer delivery service than anything else. Anyting large and you are wasting points that can be better used elseware. They are s3 and if they get caught out in the open after thier transport inevitably dies then they die period end of sentence. Furthermore if you have a full 10 man unit, you could accidently wipe out an enemy unit during the turn you charge. If you think this is bad see my aforemented statement about being caught in the open. You want wyches in combat during your opponents turn and free to move during your turn if possible.

Also charging wyches into a a large unit of boys/guants etc is a bad idea they will die. again to me they are there to tarpit single units with powerweapons/dreads etc. Being able to hold up a dreadnought/wraithlord in CC for 2 or 3 turns with the chance of a kill is gladly worse the small point cost. Or I to eliminate small units of heavier infantry or specialist units like devestators/long fangs.

I know some people advocate them as incubi support, but I will reiterate for the umteenth time I that I think incubi a broken worthless waste of points in 90% of DE armies and should never see the light of day. I think a lord works much better with wyches or even better take 6 haemoucil for anti horde support. Also if you decide to take a wych list incubi aren't even a concern.

Like every DE army wyches are a scapel and must be used in a way that allows thier eventual lost ot be felt hardest

Hope this helps

ChrisCP wrote:Where was the insult? I may not have coated my post in sugar but what part my post do you believe that one should take affront to?

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about how Deep throat asked for help, darth tried to give it, and for his kindness dash tells the OP to completely ignore everything he said. I never said you insulted him, but dash certainly did and for no reason that I could see. Darth got upset after that and rightly so. If someone talked to me like that I'd be angry as well.

You told him to stop swearing because it is against the rules but if we're going to quote rules I think you need to quote rule #1 to dash. Next time he needs to just link to thor's tactica if he feels that is a good source for info and call it a day.

Ah gotacha~! L&P

Unless you are playing in an area with god-awful competition, never take squads of wyches larger than 5. Basic wyches are not going to kill anything worth their massive points. Remember they are str 3 and don't have Power weapons.

Always buy a raider, wyche weapons, 2 blasters, and a succubus with an agoniser. If you have the points go for plasma grenades too.


As for tactics use them to tie up units. Don't expect them to kill whole units of marines, because they wont. I tend to use my wyches as counter assault, since I play a gunline style of DE I hide them in reserve or behind my warriors raiders and wait for the opponent to get close before I spring out to give my gunline time to relocate 24" away.


The only other truely viable way to play them is in Thors / Dash's style, they tend to use splinter cannon / blaster warrior squads over the DL sniper boats. The basic idea is the same though, find a high value squad and remove it from the game by sending in a unit that is really hard to kill in assault.

I'd take 10 Wyches with wych weapons, 2 blasters, incl. a Succubus with angonizer and trophy rack,
mounted in a Raider.

Why what are those 5 extra base wyches going to do? You might as well spend those points on another raider squad, or another 5 man wyche squad.

It does depend on what goal you wish the wyches to accomplish of course. There are a couple directions you could build the squad to get the work done.

I personally at the moment like my Wych squads as 6 man for purposes of leadership checks, and I do support Clthomps 5 man build as a cheaper alternative. The 10 man is also workable, but is clearly meant to be more of a workhorse and hit squads that haven't been softened with shooting at all. The big catch with a 10 man is it's quite expensive, and pretty much just as vulnerable to death by shooting as a 5-6 man squad. The only real advantage is your initial rush into enemy squads will be a little more potent, though I do not personally feel the potency gained is worth the cost of the extra Wyches.

Amazing bunch of panties getting wadded up in this thread!

Thor and Clthomps are here to preserve the dignity of Dark Eldar, so I'm content.

To all the folks getting upset - I have no objection to pointing out bad advice, which DarthSpader gave. Darth, you're welcome to give bad advice, but expect people to counter your bad advice with good advice and say, "And here's why that is bad advice." I would have ranted at length, but I had just returned from winning a golden ticket to the Vegas GW invite and a pile of loot with my own Dark Eldar....and it was too late at night for me to give advice on Dark Eldar.

If you have decades of experience, congratulations....and you should also KNOW BETTER. There haven't been any 10 wych units winning GTs; folks track that kind of stuff. If you wish to impress me with your skill and awesomeness and for me believe that your advice wasn't horrible, its an easy fix.

1. Download Vassal from www.vassalengine.org
2. Download the Vassal 40k module from http://www.sendspace.com/file/ma6ik2
3. Put together your DE list and beat me with it. It could be that your ideas are totally unorthodox and somehow they crazily do ridiculous things for you....and I'd like to give you the chance to demonstrate that to me. If you're just being an internet tough guy though and giving advice for the sake of giving it....that's ok too.

I *really* like learning new things and learning how to improve my own gameplay - I'd be willing to reward you for your efforts as well. Vassal is a computer version of Warhammer 40k. The table is on your screen, and everything else is identical to what you do in real life, moving models, rolling dice, etc; except for two things: First, you can't cheat because your opponents can see what you moved and how far, and second its 2D instead of 3D. But it works. I'd be willing to offer you a wager to back up your decades of experience. I have secret monies stashed away in my paypal account that my wife doesn't know about and if you can beat me in a game of 40k with your....unorthodox tactics that I'm so willing to dismiss as horrible advice, I'll buy you a battleforce box.

Sound fair?

Either I'm full of crap and you're going to win $90 by proving it, or you're full of crap, which is pretty obvious to anyone who plays Dark Eldar. I'm Dashofpepper on Vassal as well; let me know when you'd like to play.

Hey dash can I play you for a battle box I will make some really outlandish posts if it will help

Clthomps, the difference is that you're not a bad player (although we've never played), and you don't get horribly offended and tout your supposed awesomeness with radical claims if someone disagrees with you. My "awesomeness" is freely available for all to see in my signature, and I let it speak for itself.

But if you want to play a game...and put a wager on it, I'm down. Get Vassal dude! I'd be happy to take any of my tournament lists and play them at a point disadvantage against the rubbish Darth was suggesting and pay him if I lose because that's how strongly I feel that it is rubbish. If you want to build a list and play it the way he's suggesting, I'll take that challenge too, but if you're going to pit your experience against mine with decent lists, we can play for fun or cash; either way.

If I ever figure out how to use vassel I would love a game. The wager thing was a joke since I don't think I have anything to prove.

Anywhoo back on on topic,


When you get that box assembled and painted post it in the gallery, we are rather short on DE images.

@ dash - i had no problem with people countering my advise. what i take objection to, is telling people to flat out ignore me. its plain rude, and i dont take kindley. pointing out an alternitive is by all means fine, and i believe the main point to forum posting.

as for vassal, i attempted to download as per linkage but ran into a slew of difficulties getting the 40k mod to work. once i get it up and running, ill definitly hit you for a game, wager or not.

@ my list, i havent played DE in the new rules, so im not sure how it would translate. (i prefer to play IG Ork or tau in the new ed) however i ran quite a long time nearley undefeated. i retired them simply becuase people would refuse to play. ill post the list i was using for critique in the army list section. also keep in mind, the reason i suggested using wyches as distraction was simply becuase in my exp people were terrified to the point of needing extra undies as soon as someone pulled them out of a case. my list played on that fear, and it worked. as for the wyches killing anything i think they rarley if ever earned thier points back...it was the ravagers and archon that did the majority of the killing.

back on topic. i dont have a problem with people countering my advise with diffrent advise. but let people decide for themselves what works or dosent, and avoid telling people to ignore me... thats what cheesed me off, not the fact you countered my post. as ive already stated.. i think its critical part of forum life to go back and forth on such as this. in anycase, will attempt vassal again, and post in general 40k if i need assitance from someone who has it working.

Just a note on ideal Wyche squad sizes: with 6+ armor, they are very prone to taking 25% loses from exploding Raiders. Ld 8 isn't bad but isn't great either.

A minimal 5 Wyche squad is slightly more likely to avoid 25% loses from an exploding Raider:

5 Wyches: 69.1%, 19.2% fail
6 Wyches: 78.1%, 22.0% fail
7 Wyches: 86.2%, 23.9% fail
8 Wyches: 91.0%, 25.3% fail
9 Wyches: 79.8%, 22.2% fail
10 Wyches: 85.8%, 23.8% fail

For getting shot at in the open, Wyches are pretty much doomed, but if you can get them in cover, the bump up to 9 Wyches (requiring 3 kills for 25%) will somewhat increase your chances of not losing the morale check unless the enemy pumps sufficient shots at them. For example, against 5 shooting wounds (e.g. 11 bolt pistol shots, 22 sluggas), the odds of losing morale and running drop from 22.6% to 13.9%.

[This brings up a practical piece of tactical advice for DE I don't see mentioned much. Whenever possible, end your Raider movement such that it borders area terrain so that your Warriors or Wyches have a safer place to disembark when their Raider gets wrecked. Particularly for Wyches, it's worth losing an inch or two of Raider movement if it allows them to pile out of the wreckage into 4+ cover instead of getting caught in the open with a 6+ armor save.]

So, the ideal squad size depends on how you balance Wyche offense factors versus survivability getting across the board.

Extra Wyches are somewhat likely to kill one more enemy on the charge (depending on foe and combat drugs), and thus may help in combat resolution by reducing the chance of breaking from lost combat (but also increasing the chance of winning combat and overrunning the foe). +5 Wyches should yield about 1 marine on the charge (dependent on combat drugs, etc.).

IMO, losing combat and getting swept is a bigger threat than winning combat and sweeping the enemy [on your turn]. This could be my local environment: I see a lot of CC-oriented, fearless, stubborn, Ld 10, etc. and rarely get into the face of (for example) Tau gunboys.

More bodies means more wounds to soak before allocating to your Succubus and a higher threshold to rally if they do flee. Factor that as you like: some combination of banner, +1 Ld and/or ablative wounds for the Succubus.

I think the sweet spots are 5 or 9. 5 is efficient and better at surviving an explosion, but weakens them in combat which increases the risk of breaking and/or getting swept. 9 is more vulnerable than 5 against explosions but sturdier in cover, less likely to get swept in combat.

In my neck of the woods [1850 is standard], I face a lot of CC oriented foes (SW are the alpha build), and they've faced my DE enough to not make mistakes in target priority etc. [I scoff at anybody who relies on the enemy being unfamiliar with DE; that doesn't work locally and it doesn't work in tourneys]. I've been running 9 (8+1) Wyches per squad, and over the course of many games I've had better success with not fleeing as well as remaining locked in combat. They tend to push in combat, a lot, which is fine by me.

You meta-game may vary.

I'm currently limiting myself to 8 skimmers (7 Raiders, 1 Ravager) until new models are out, but when I go over I will likely try 3x5 (or 3x6) instead of 2x9 to see how that pans out.

LMoE

Are you still playing 4th ed?

When a raider goes down it creates cover no matter how it dies, therefor the bit about losing a couple inches to park near terrain is useless information.

It always amuses me when someone thinks because they win with something that it automatically makes it the 'right' way. Ego often turns that opinion into the 'only' way and everything else becomes wrong.

Thats silly. In a game with as many variables as 40k, theres going to be obvious ways that are better in many situations. But that doesnt make another option or method wrong, just different and something a different playstyle vs opponents other than yours, may have success with.

All succesful players adapt thier army in ways that fit thier playstyle and make best use of the rules. This isnt a clix game where the 'best' of anything is obvious.

If someone has collected data on EVERY 40k game played, or even a majority of them, to track success/fail rates of the myriad of armies and possible lists- then they can start making claims of 'right' and 'best'. Until then its 'what works best for me'.

A wrecked Raider doesn't necessarily give cover from all angles, but point taken.

Parking near cover can also be helpful if you wish to disembark and dispatch the transport to another squad. This is more of an issue for Warriors who will likely remain in cover until it's time to rush an objective.

Also, relying on a wrecked Raider for cover typically requires your squad to disembark behind it, and the subsequent move through cover will need to move through the wreck, or else the squad will need to move around it. Either way can rob you of a few inches needed to get into assault range with an enemy. Parking with cover ahead of the Raider will allow the Wyches to disembark forward of the Raider into cover. They will still need to move through cover to get out, but overall they may gain a few inches towards the enemy compared to disembarking behind the Raider. With a good move through cover roll it may be the difference between getting into assault range or not or between running and shooting blasters into the target squad.

If the squad is prone to getting assaulted, disembarking into cover forces the enemy to roll distance for assault into cover. Behind a wrecked Raider the enemy can assault around cover into models at either edge. I've had enemies whiff this roll, and its very satisfying.

Anyhow, a more generalized rule of thumb would be to plan ahead for your Raider to get destroyed or immobilized, because it's very likely to happen. Flying adjacent to area cover is one trick, and in my experience it often helps in situations like I've described. It's not always the right thing to do, but you can say the same for most tactics you can name.

LMoE


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"it's", not "its". My bad.

LMoE

Mistress of minis wrote:It always amuses me when someone thinks because they win with something that it automatically makes it the 'right' way. Ego often turns that opinion into the 'only' way and everything else becomes wrong.

While there may not be a single way to play, there are certainly ways of doing it poorly. I can take Vulkan in a list full of Plasma and Devastators, and I can win all my games, but it is still the wrong way to use Vulkan.

[quoteAlso, relying on a wrecked Raider for cover typically requires your squad to disembark behind it, and the subsequent move through cover will need to move through the wreck

Ok, I take it all back. I've never had any success with this trick. It was all some kind of fuzzy dream.

My bad.

LMoE

LoL, fair enough.