Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've being playing a lot with my Chaos Space Marines lately (Iron Warriors) and while the codex is flavourless and dull compared to newer codexes, the actual army isn't too bad, if you pick the right units and today that's what I'm going to discuss. If you take these top 7 units from the Chaos Space Marine codex you'll probably win more games, and everyone likes winning games right? And of course that's providing you don't win games with them in the first place.

Here's the top 7 units in the codex, and in no particular order. Of course comments are always welcome, I'd like to here if you have any thoughts on other units too

1. Daemon Prince

The Daemon Prince is a bad ass mother which only costs 110 points, 20 more points than a Chaos Lord and you get a lot more bang for your buck. The D.P is a monstrous creature so no armour saves in combat, so you want to get this bad boy into the fight a.s.a.p so wings are pretty mandatory and they're only 20 points too - so for 130 points you get a basic flying monstrous creature, groovy!

Marks can make your Prince better in certain ways. I wouldn't bother with mark of khorne as the Prince has enough attacks already and the other marks offer more benefits. I'd take either mark of nurgle for better small arm fire protection and the Princes number 1 enemy, plasma guns, will need 3+ to wound instead of 2+. Mark of tzeentch gives a 4+ invulnerable which isn't bad and mark of slaanesh gives increased initiative, though the Prince is I5 so probably not hugely needed.

If you haven't taken MoK you give your Prince psychic powers. These range from ranged attacks giving the Prince some ranged offensive or close combat boosting powers. You should be getting that Prince into assault a.s.a.p with wings, so warptime is probably the best power over all - re-roll to hit and to wound is nice. Wind of chaos if also pretty funky for wounding on a 4+ and allow no armour saves in the form of a flamer template; nice for dishing out pain for assaulting.

Tactics with this big daddy-o is simple; cast warptime, fly forward and then smash stuff. Always hide your Prince behind armour as monstrous creatures need 50% cover, this will work well particularly if you haven't taken mark of tzeentch where the 4+ cover save is a much better save. However, if you do take a Daemon Prince take them in pairs and if you can a Greater Daemon. You take one Prince it will get singled out and ranged weapons like lascannons will shoot it to bits in time not caring about the extra toughness or in time the better invulnerable save.

The only downside to a Prince is as mentioned above is that they attract a lot of fire power. This can be good and bad. In my 2k list I take dual Princes and a Greater Daemon; this gives multiple threat but more importantly target saturation, I have three monstrous creatures running about which you really need to put down sooner than later. But, as I've found out, the Princes die (which is a shame) and the Greater Daemon comes on without any damage. Although I've lost the Princes they've acted as a distraction and my main force is fine. This is a catch 22 for my opponent, they must deal with the Princes or else they will run riot but if they don't everything else will get them. If they deal with other targets the Princes will still get them

3 x monstrous creatures is the win IMO Remember, target saturation, three monstrous creatures isn't nice

2. Greater Daemon

The Greater Daemon is a bargain IMO and has stats like the Daemon Prince, the G.D is a better fighter and has more attacks along with a 4+ invulnerable save, but is slightly slower.

While there isn't a huge amount to talk about a Greater Daemon itself I'll talk about the few tactics available. Basically you deep strike in and assault straight after, yes Daemons in the Chaos Space Marine book can assault the turn they're summoned, something you probably didn't know. The Greater Daemon is excellent to act as a line breaker, they can appear while your squad stays in a vehicle and then charge forward smashing tanks and infantry, remember they're a monstrous creature .

You should also use the Greater Daemon as a speed bump against tough elite units, like thunder hammer Terminators. The Greater Daemon has the attacks to tackle them and has a 4+ invulnerable to take the wounds. The Daemon will probably die but hopefully takes down some Terminators with it. The plus side is you've just thrown a 100 point monstrous creature against a elite unit, tying them up or dishing out damage, your Daemon Prince wouldn't survive this and the Greater Daemon may not but my point is the D.P can cost around 170 points and the Greater Daemon could probably do a slightly better job and maybe survive that bit longer.

Another tactic envolves taking a Chaos Lord. Lets say your Chaos Lord is in a fight and things aren't going his way, he's got one wound left and will probably kick the bucket. Pull the Greater Daemon through his rear and have that dying Chaos Lord your opponent is glad to be killing change into a revitalised monstrous creature with full wounds and better strength, toughness, weapon skill and invulnerable save then previously - if your opponent was getting annoyed with your Chaos Lord than pulling in a Greater Daemon to replace your dying Lord is going to annoy people - DO IT! lol.

As Greater Daemons can appear in the place of a Champion you can also use them to plug gaps and support. This has some negative comments which I'll move onto it a minute. If you take a Champion in each unit you're maximising the areas that Daemon can appear. You take one Champion your Daemon may not appear where you require it. For instantance in a recent game I took three Champions, one CSM squad camped on my objective so having the Daemon appear there is useless. I had another CSM squad going for the enemy objective, but only minor squads where on there and the CSM could deal with them plus the Greater Daemon cannot claim objectives so probably not the best place to put. I had the last Champion in front of a massive skirmish envolving my Chaos Terminators being dragged down by a massive mob of Guardsman, hey-ho Greater Daemon appears and assaults slaughtering said Guardsman, excellent for support and plugging gaps where your lines are the weakest.

Do not think the G.D is without negatives, firstly it only has a 4+ invulnerable and is T6 to like the Daemon Prince anti tank weapons will have no problems putting wounds on and weight of fire will bring it down in time. Secondly is that this guy has no fleet or wings so when you appear you best damn make sure the thing can make combat and is in the thick of things or else you're foot slogging and not making assault, which is where you shine and you're gonna get shot up. Lastly the cost of the Greater Daemon isn't exactly 100 points. You need a Chaos Lord or Champion to make the Daemon work, so at least your costing is going up by 15 points to upgrade the Champion. The problem with this also is if you pop wargear on the Champion it can become wasted the the Daemon will appear and then boom! your power fist has just being blown up by a big warp nasty, a waste of points if you ask me.

3. Chosen Chaos Space Marines

Now just hold your horses and stop your huffing and puffing back there . Just hear me out and then bitch me after ok?

Chosen aren't as bad as you think, but you must have them in the right role. If you're taking Chosen forget close combat because Chaos Terminators do it better for cheaper. I'll explain why Chaos Terminators are better at assault in a minute, it should be clear, but I've had debates with people who seem to think Chosen are better in assault :S - moving on from the strange and weird folk. Anyway, roles, yes that's where I was you want the Chosen in a SHOOTING role only. Why? Well they can take 5 ranged weapons per squad but firstly get it out your head about taking heavy weapons for Chosen, that's for Havocs or Obliterators. What you want with Chosen is special weapons - the ability to take 5 of these can cause major headaches and can be cheap too, did you know a squad of 5 Chosen with 5 x flamers and a Rhino costs just 150 points. I think that's a pretty good deal.

Now we know what role they can do lets discuss tactics. If you want to keep these cheap and you are taking a Rhino then take only two special weapons, after all only 2 models can fire from the hatch so any extra are wasted until you get out the tank - and you do not want to get out unless you have too.

The Chosen have the infilitrate rule which means you could, well, er, infiltrate. You do this take full compliement of plasma guns and camp them in terrain. You could end up dishing out 5 x plasma gun rapid fire shots in the first turn taking out a light transport for another unit to tackle or a monstrous creature. Though, consider that they're not in a transport and 5 Space Marines with plasma guns will become a target and will die, soon, terrain at least gives them a cover save but weight of fire will take them down. Also, before anyone says you cannot infilitrate in a transport so no, they cannot take a Rhino if they go down the ol' camp plasma route.

The best thing to do with these guys really is outflank in the Rhino. Take 5 meltaguns or 5 flamers and then roll up and nuke the most threatening transport in range or monstrous creature - 5 meltaguns should do the trick. Same applies to a horde, roll up load up and unleash hell on them. That weight of fire power will make sure a lot of things will die. Oh, a mental note as well, if you outflank and you're not in a situation where you want to be just pop smoke on your Rhino which will at least give it a cover save protecting it and the Space Marines inside that little longer.

I did some more indepth Chosen tactica which can be found here: Chosen Tactica

The negatives for Chosen is in their wargear. People get all bambozzled by the amount of wargear options they have and end up mix and matching and just not setting them up right. Chosen excel at shooting so do not ever make them close combat, at all. Comparing them with the correct wargear to match a unit of 5 Chaos Terminators the Chosen cost 190 points and that's for MoT and 4 power weapons, they have no means of transport and only 1 attack each, you'll get 2 though taking a bolt pistol. Looking at the Chaos Terminators they're 150 points come with more attacks, 2+ armour save and more importantly they can deep strike too.

Another problem is they can cost a fair bit. You take a unit of 5 with full special weapons the price isn't bad but it's not hard to kill 5 Space Marines and you're always removing a special weapon for when dies. You want to take a full unit for bodybags like you have to do with Havocs and they will cost 180 points and that's before any upgrades or transport.

If you use Chosen right and set them up right they will work. You use them wrong and set them up wrong they will fail. Perhaps you've seen them in a new light now?

4. Chaos Terminators

I'm not going to deny I have love for Chaos Terminators. These are the ultra good guys can bad. I hear people say they suck, why is that? Is it because they do not have thunder hammers and a 3+ invulnerable save? If that's the case all Terminators suck who do not have that wargear, which is not the case! Chaos Terminators are a lot more flexiable and have better wargear options than loyalist Terminators, minus the thunder hammers of course.

I'm not going into tactica with this guys because I wrote it all here a year ago: Chaos Terminator Tactica

5. Plague Marines

What's not to like about Plague Marines? They're T5 get feel no pain and grenades which minus off the charge bonus attack, awesome!

These guys can act in the same role as Chaos Space Marines, you can take two special weapons and you do not need a certain squad size to do this like with Chaos Space Marines. Pick your Plague Marines for a role say for tank hunting, infantry smashing or monstrous creature busting and fit them with dual special weapons and send them packing in a Rhino; it's that simple. Also, these guys make great objective holders being pretty tough to get rid off.

Bad thing about these guys is they cost a pretty penny so you get about 7 for the price 10 so you will lack numbers, but this isn't a problem as your Plague Marines are harder to dispose of. Plague Marines will good against normal anti infantry weapons do not like the tough stuff like power weapons and them being I3 means they will strike probably last so against say Terminators they will get hammered. Also large blast templates can really hurt them, you may think a battle cannon isn't too bad against Plague Marines but it is; the AP3 takes out the armour save and because the battle cannon is double the Plague Marines toughness no feel no pain for them - Plague Marines fear battle cannons!

6. Chaos Raptors

Before you start booing and hissing at me (again) just hear me out because these is going to be short and sweet.

Take a minimum squad of Raptors. Throw in 2 meltaguns. Deep strike in and nuke a tank. Raptors job done and cost 120 points - ave it

Though, use them as a suicide unit because that's exactly what they are. They're a little expensive to be taking in full units, which you need two of btw for unit redundancy and target satuation. Keep them small which keeps them cheap.

7. Obliterators

Not a lot I can say about Obliterators because everyone should know how f**king awesome these are! Forget Havocs, these are your boys and will cost cheaper more or less.

For those who do not know Obliterators carry a range of heavy and special weapons they can use each turn, on a particular note these are one of two units which can only get multi meltas and plasma cannons; the former particularly useful in the mech environment. Special weapons are all twin-linked btw and they have slow and purposeful, which has the relentless special rule so these guys can move and shoot heavy weapons and counts as not moving with rapid fire.

Best thing for these guys is hold them in reserve. Do not set them up as a lascannon platform because you're wasting the abilities they have and lets face it they're not cheap and that's exactly what you're paying for - you want lascannons get a Predator or Havocs. Deep strike these guys in and get them to pop a tank with multi meltas or meltagun, burn infantry with flamers or plug gaps where you need them.

Bad thing about these guys is they cost a fair amount of points and pretty easy to dispose of with the right tools. The 2+ armour save makes them survive small arms along with 2 wounds but things like meltaguns, lascannons and demolisher shells will really spoil there day and inflict instant death, beware!

Notable Mentions

Chaos Lord

Yes you may laugh but consider a Chaos Lord with MoK and a pair of lightning claws dishing out 6 attacks on the charge, with re-rolls to wound. You could risk it and pay 10 points more and get a daemon weapon, still with MoK, this could potentially give 17 attacks on the charge, extremely nasty!

Unfortunately the Chaos Lord is pale compared to a Daemon Prince.

Chaos Sorcerer

120 points buys you a lash Sorcerer. Pop your Sorcerer in a Rhino along with a squad for armoured and squad protection. Then lash out the hatch.

Ok, so lash doesn't affect mech so lash has slipped down the ranks. It also requires weaponry in the army to work around it i.e Vindicators and the Sorcerer needs a squad and transport to protect it. Remember, the Sorcerer is a I.C so can be picked out in combat and lack of psychic defense is also a problem.

Noise Marines

Give them those fancy guns, er a sonic blaster, yeah that's the one. Forget blastmaster because it's over priced. Shove them in a Land Raider and then bail out open fire because the sonic blaster is a assault weapon and then charge into combat; Noise Marines are I5 so you'll probably go first.

These guys are expensive just for a initiative boost. You work out the difference between a normal CSM and it's 5 points, you can take the MoS for 20 points which works out to 4 Noise Marines different - not even a minimum squad. Also sonic blaster is 5 points extra making them more expensive than the more survivable Plague Marines. Sonic blasters should have been included in the points cost I think.

Lesser Daemons

Cheap objective troops for 13 points a pop? That will do nicely. Oh, they have Space Marine profiles too but with a extra attack

Bad news is they only have a 5+ invulnerable so can get wasted quickly. And you need a large unit to mak things happen, which can lead to deep strike issues. Though if you're objective claiming the cover save will be better.


Ok so finally here's a army list for all the Chaos Space Marine goodie units.

Chaos Space Marines "Goodie Build" - unlimited points

HQ

Daemon Prince - wings, MoN & warptime

Daemon Prince - wings, MoN & warptime

Greater Daemon

Elite

5 x Chosen w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - champion - Rhino w/ havoc launcher

5 x Chaos Terminators - 1 x chainfist & 4 x combi meltas

5 x Chaos Terminators - 1 x chainfist, 1 x heavy flamer & 3 x combi flamers

Troops

7 x Plague Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns & chaos icon - champion - Rhino w/ havoc launcher

7 x Plague Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x meltaguns & chaos icon - champion - Rhino w/ havoc launcher

7 x Plague Marines w/ Rhino - 2 x plasma guns & chaos icon - champion - Rhino w/ havoc launcher

Fast Attack

5 x Raptors - 2 x meltaguns + chaos icon

5 x Raptors - 2 x meltaguns + chaos icon

Heavy Support

3 x Obliterators

3 x Obliterators

3 x Obliterators

This article was written for www.imperiusdominatus.com. The original can be found here: Top Chaos Space Marine units

Awesome, that list has no entry for the Greater Daemon...so 100 down the drain...

Sorry they should have Champions; missed that off - doh!

Why on earth would you not take lash of submission? Forget warptime.

Lash is nice...but not as nice over time when GW is essentially pushing the easiest counter to the power: Mech. As with other gimmiks, the longer it is around, the more people know how to react/deal with it.

Lash has lost its luster for me. To really use lash in the current meta game, you have to build a list around it, and i am not a fan.

As to the topic. I have to disagree with terminators and chosen being on this list, as you have described them. I have never found a viable use for terminators other than termicide. In all other forms they are too expensive for how they perform. Icons cost far too much for the benefits they give and landraiders arent worth the points to carry terminators to battle. But if they dont have a transport they are walking which doesnt work well.

As for chosen, they seem like a good idea but it is entirely dependant upon terrain and outflank rolls. In the ideal situation of outflanking turn 2 destroying a nasty vehicle only works in a vaccum. What happens when they dont come on till turn 4? And even then terrain needs to be clear enough for them to get within melta range. Its a lot of "if's" to really make them work. They seem like a good greater daemon vessel but that only works if you infiltrate them, as like i said before outflanking has a minimum turn 3 arrival then (for the greater daemon). And could easily be turn 4 or 5 arrival. Not worth their large price tag unless they have ideal conditions and perfect reserve rolls.

I've found that most of CSM's punch comes from its HQ, Heavy, and Troop slots, so I try to maximize those first.

I'm not sure on Raptors, Chosen, and Terminators being on the list. Terminators have been nothing but dissappointing to me. I've been falling more and more in love with fast troops though and am planning on trying out a squad of raptors to back up my Demon Princes when they go on the offensive. I keep doing the math on Chosen and never like what I come up with.

I think plain old "Rhino" probably deserves a space on the list. I guess it's not technically a unit per se, but given that each of your troop squads is almost obligated to take one, it's worth pointing out.

Maybe the Defiler too. Lots of folks think Oblits just plain outclass them, but they're perfectly playable heavy supports that can outperform Oblits from game to game.

Really pretty much any of the troop choices CSM can take aren't going to steer you wrong. 1k Sons might be the most niche unit, but they're pretty dang strong against MEQs.

but they're pretty dang strong against MEQs, that do not hug or create really easily attainable cover saves and bunch up for wind of chaos spanking.

There I fixed it for you 1-UP.
The conditions for TS to 'exist' (IMO) are numerous.

Lol, I like how you say termis are better at close combat, but you have them kitted for shooting in your unlimited list. If anything I'd say berzerkers are your best close combat/ points in the codex.

mercer
that's quite a dissertation.... here's a few of my thoughts
1. demon prince. agree.
2. greater demon. disagree. he's cheap but quirky and difficult to deliver. besides that champions arent cheap.
3. chosen. disagree. as sanct would say: meh.
4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10
5. plague marines. agree.
6. raptors. completely disagree. these guys are ridiculous. termicide is currently beating out raptorcide in most competitive circles...
7. obliterators. agree, though instant death is a big problem with these guys.
as far as your notables....
1. lord. agree. honerable mention but 9 times out of 10 should have been a demon prince. that being said khorne lords with bloodfeeders are uber killy. love em.
2. sorcerer. take or leave this guy. w/e. warp time is good.
3. noise marines. disagree. expensive. khorne berserkers give better capabilities for the points.
4. lesser demons. completely disagree. for an extra 2 points they could have had a bolter and power armor.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10

No, stop it you fool.

Mercer: You're wrong about the Obliterators costing less than Havocs. Generally they're a poorer choice than other fire support platforms, and are only good as a Plasmacannon platform because we have no other option. You want Deepstriking Meltaguns? Termicide, or Raptors. Saves you a Heavy Support slot and costs less. Long ranged anti-tank? Predators, or Havocs with Autocannons. Anti-infantry? Anything else in the codex. Obliterators are good when you have to fill multiple gaps in your army, but as you balance your list they cease being as cost efficient

Chosen aren't nearly as good a Melta platform as Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, Plague Marines, or Chaos Space Marines. The issue here is reliability; Outflanking Chosen could very likely never kill an important tank, while more direct methods have a measure of accuracy.

DarkHound wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10

No, stop it you fool.

The sound of AF posting is the sound of a million 's across the internet.

Jihallah wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10

No, stop it you fool.

The sound of AF posting is the sound of a million 's across the internet.

Quoted for truth.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10

No, stop it you fool.

The sound of AF posting is the sound of a million 's across the internet.

Quoted for truth.

Quoted again for more truth

Here are my top picks:

Winged lash prince (A+)
Summoned greater daemon
Plague Marines
Berzerkers
Obliterators

With Space Wolf Thunderwolves able to take stormshields oblits should be a natural T5.

G

In all honesty I think your remarks about Chosen Chaos Space Marines being better at shooting in in CC is well..A bit silly. In order to get a squad of CC termies anywhere is that you really have to use a landraider which really really ups there point cost while the chosen can take a rhino for all of 35pts.

Don't get me wrong. They are great for shooting. Give everyone a plasma gun or melta gun and they are gunna kill whatever you send them at but they can do great in CC as well.

A squad of 5 termis in a landraider comes to a little under 400 pts.

While a squad of ten chosen with 4 power weapons in a rhino comes in at a quarter under 300 pts.

Plus Chosen can infiltrate on there own or outflank in there rhino.

You can also give the chosen an icon and make them even meaner while still being cheaper and as effective if not more effective then the 5 termies. You can give the termis a icon as well but then your pushing them over 400 pts as well as if you add any upgrades to them at all.

As most people play them and as the current book is termis are best used as termicide unless you are taking them for more fluffy reasons

Chosen are great for shooting with there option for so many special weapons but I think you are greatly short changing them by saying termis can do a better job then they can.

What if you are playing against a horde army? Four meltaguns are not going to make back their points. There is also a concurrent thread about how awesome are fire dragons. It's all very situational at best. If you get the right matchup then sure the Chosen with meltaguns can do lots of damage. It just depends on what you are up against.

G

BBF, I suggest just waiting to post every other thread of the similar type..... saves alot of finger muscles if you are gonna say the same things.........at least (but unlikely) twice.

As for AbaddonFidelis's comments about:
Chosen: lol.
Lesser Daemons: I really don't have the energy, but I will say is that it's not that easy to say that. Lesser daemons (sigh) operate in a very specific range of roles....the 2 points to becoming a CSM is mis-leading in a variety of ways.

As for the Termy blob....again, it's hit or miss.... I'm more sure know that some gaming groups that don't see it often don't react very quickly to it. It's not really that bad to deal with, and the offensive power is somewhat questionable with respect to a more informed environment.

The comments regarding chosen and dragons apply to both units. If you happen to run up against a horde four meltaguns are probably not going to be that helpful. You'll cap a few grunts then get pulled down by a mob. That's how it works.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:The comments regarding chosen and dragons apply to both units. If you happen to run up against a horde four meltaguns are probably not going to be that helpful. You'll cap a few grunts then get pulled down by a mob. That's how it works.

G

Y'know... you could just... point the dragons at something NOT horde?

That, and if all they have is horde, eighty points down the gutter isn't too huge of a sacrifice for dragons.

I have never seen raptors played efficiently, so i'll take Mercer's word for it.

I find raptors to be pretty good. They don't fit into the "core" of my lists, but if i have the points left over, then they generally make the cut. I use them either as a harassing squad, by hiding behind cover near objectives so i can swoop out and contest/clear a point, or by flanking them around wide for a 3rd-4th turn assault- or as a 3rd daemon prince, with an icon too for deepstrike delivery.

I've been playing alot of games from the new missions book recently, and have found that FA units have a role/special rule in a fair few of the missions, so i try to keep this in mind when making a balanced list for battle mission games. Bikers can do the same, but I value the ability to go over terrain/units- great for going around movement blocking rhinos!

sanct
about the lesser demons. their ability to come out of the warp and charge on the same turn is really good. under the old rules where you could choose when they come out I feel like they make alot more sense. but right now when its random... too iffy even for me. I cant think of very many situations in which Id rather have a demon than a marine. which situations are you thinking of where they would be better?

I think the terminators ability to load up on combi weapons is really strong. they start killing right away. power weapons combi weapons terminator armor 4++ (moT) they just seem all around useful to me. I mean in what situation are they not good? and for 30 points each (base). idk I like them. I guess an argument could be made for plague marines over terminators since they're even harder to kill and get 4++ from cover for alot fewer points. and are scoring. I think some of the other chaos players have rejected them for the wrong reasons. fear of deep striking, for instance.... which to me... makes no sense... at all............
AF

@AF

Its not that terminators are rejected for fear of deepstriking. Termicide is a very viable option for terminators that revolves around deepstriking. What is rejected is deepstriking 10 man blobs of them. Terminators would also be a much better choice if they had better delivery options. Currently, its deepstrike, walk, or landraider. Deepstrike works, but you risk getting shot up first turn they are on. Walking just tends to produce poor results unless they are specifically kitted to walk, which i have never seen so it could work? i dont know. And landraider only holds 5 where as marines get to hold 8 with LR variants. And chaos landraiders are pretty crappy in the first place, without POTMS.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:sanct
about the lesser demons. their ability to come out of the warp and charge on the same turn is really good. under the old rules where you could choose when they come out I feel like they make alot more sense. but right now when its random... too iffy even for me. I cant think of very many situations in which Id rather have a demon than a marine. which situations are you thinking of where they would be better?

Against units designed to kill Marines, like Banshees or Terminators. They're also valuable screening units, since they're the cheapest models we have and are relatively durable against everything Marines aren't.

I think the terminators ability to load up on combi weapons is really strong. they start killing right away. power weapons combi weapons terminator armor 4++ (moT) they just seem all around useful to me. I mean in what situation are they not good? and for 30 points each (base). idk I like them. I guess an argument could be made for plague marines over terminators since they're even harder to kill and get 4++ from cover for alot fewer points. and are scoring. I think some of the other chaos players have rejected them for the wrong reasons. fear of deep striking, for instance.... which to me... makes no sense... at all............
AF

I don't like Terminators against hordes, other Terminators, Guardsmen, most battle tanks, or Monsterous Creatures. If being afraid of Deepstriking makes no sense to you, then you've never passed a statistics class. When you have cheap squads (Termicide, 5 man Raptor teams, the old Imperial Guard Deepstriking Meltavets) the risk can be midigated by quantity, but what you continue to suggest is illogical and incorrect.

Lechium wrote:Why on earth would you not take lash of submission? Forget warptime.

Lash is fail. It doesn't affect mech armies at all and if you lash stuff it's only a lucky dice roll to move a set distance and your hoping that some big blast template lands on target then. Then add in you need units to work around lash too.

mrwittwer wrote:

As to the topic. I have to disagree with terminators and chosen being on this list, as you have described them. I have never found a viable use for terminators other than termicide. In all other forms they are too expensive for how they perform. Icons cost far too much for the benefits they give and landraiders arent worth the points to carry terminators to battle. But if they dont have a transport they are walking which doesnt work well.

As for chosen, they seem like a good idea but it is entirely dependant upon terrain and outflank rolls. In the ideal situation of outflanking turn 2 destroying a nasty vehicle only works in a vaccum. What happens when they dont come on till turn 4? And even then terrain needs to be clear enough for them to get within melta range. Its a lot of "if's" to really make them work. They seem like a good greater daemon vessel but that only works if you infiltrate them, as like i said before outflanking has a minimum turn 3 arrival then (for the greater daemon). And could easily be turn 4 or 5 arrival. Not worth their large price tag unless they have ideal conditions and perfect reserve rolls.

Chosen are excellent in min units with dual special weaps They don't have to use outflank when you have 7 Rhino chassis on the board, maybe more

1-UP wrote:

I'm not sure on Raptors, Chosen, and Terminators being on the list. Terminators have been nothing but dissappointing to me. I've been falling more and more in love with fast troops though and am planning on trying out a squad of raptors to back up my Demon Princes when they go on the offensive. I keep doing the math on Chosen and never like what I come up with.

I think plain old "Rhino" probably deserves a space on the list. I guess it's not technically a unit per se, but given that each of your troop squads is almost obligated to take one, it's worth pointing out.

Maybe the Defiler too. Lots of folks think Oblits just plain outclass them, but they're perfectly playable heavy supports that can outperform Oblits from game to game.

Really pretty much any of the troop choices CSM can take aren't going to steer you wrong. 1k Sons might be the most niche unit, but they're pretty dang strong against MEQs.

Raptors work well for suicide melta. Give them 2 meltas, icon and min squad and deep strike in.

Defilers aren't that good TBH. They 50/50 hit and not brilliant in combat needing even a 4+ to hit a Guardsmen through in low initiative and they sometimes cannot get the strike in or fail with sweeping advance.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:Lol, I like how you say termis are better at close combat, but you have them kitted for shooting in your unlimited list. If anything I'd say berzerkers are your best close combat/ points in the codex.

Terminators have power weaps Berzerkers do not - so Terminators are better. They're kitted out with combis so they can assault after softening a horde up for example with mass flamers or nuke a vehicle with meltas and follow up a assault or even plasma some loyalist terminators and follow up with a assault.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:mercer
that's quite a dissertation.... here's a few of my thoughts
1. demon prince. agree.
2. greater demon. disagree. he's cheap but quirky and difficult to deliver. besides that champions arent cheap.
3. chosen. disagree. as sanct would say: meh.
4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10
5. plague marines. agree.
6. raptors. completely disagree. these guys are ridiculous. termicide is currently beating out raptorcide in most competitive circles...
7. obliterators. agree, though instant death is a big problem with these guys.
as far as your notables....
1. lord. agree. honerable mention but 9 times out of 10 should have been a demon prince. that being said khorne lords with bloodfeeders are uber killy. love em.
2. sorcerer. take or leave this guy. w/e. warp time is good.
3. noise marines. disagree. expensive. khorne berserkers give better capabilities for the points.
4. lesser demons. completely disagree. for an extra 2 points they could have had a bolter and power armor.
AF

2. Perhaps I've just had good luck with mine? In the six games or so I've used him he's died once but wrecked the place.
3. Chosen work in min units with dual specials and poss in a Rhino.
6. Raptors still have the movement of 12" to get into melta range, Terminators do not.

Notables

4. These guys are expensive but remember can assault from deep strike so can tie a unit up.

Thanks for your comments

DarkHound wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:4. terminators. agree. chaos terminators rock. especially in blocks of 10

No, stop it you fool.

Mercer: You're wrong about the Obliterators costing less than Havocs. Generally they're a poorer choice than other fire support platforms, and are only good as a Plasmacannon platform because we have no other option. You want Deepstriking Meltaguns? Termicide, or Raptors. Saves you a Heavy Support slot and costs less. Long ranged anti-tank? Predators, or Havocs with Autocannons. Anti-infantry? Anything else in the codex. Obliterators are good when you have to fill multiple gaps in your army, but as you balance your list they cease being as cost efficient

Chosen aren't nearly as good a Melta platform as Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, Plague Marines, or Chaos Space Marines. The issue here is reliability; Outflanking Chosen could very likely never kill an important tank, while more direct methods have a measure of accuracy.

Oblits cost max 225 points for a unit of 3. Havocs cost min 150 points for 10 strong and then throw on weaps. You take a min Havoc unit with speicals you're still talking 180-200 points while cheaper than Oblits the Oblits have ALL the weapons which is massively important and a edge and a lot more survivable with 2+ and a power fist for close combat. The point is Oblits are not a fire support platform, you don't stand there with lascannons if you're using them that way then you're using them wrong and that's why you think Havocs are better.

Chosen are good for outflanking; but it's a risk on the reserve and come in the right side. Chosen are best for mass special weaps or min units. YMMV on them.

Thanks for your input

A Matter of Pride wrote: In all honesty I think your remarks about Chosen Chaos Space Marines being better at shooting in in CC is well..A bit silly. In order to get a squad of CC termies anywhere is that you really have to use a landraider which really really ups there point cost while the chosen can take a rhino for all of 35pts.

Don't get me wrong. They are great for shooting. Give everyone a plasma gun or melta gun and they are gunna kill whatever you send them at but they can do great in CC as well.

A squad of 5 termis in a landraider comes to a little under 400 pts.

While a squad of ten chosen with 4 power weapons in a rhino comes in at a quarter under 300 pts.

Plus Chosen can infiltrate on there own or outflank in there rhino.

You can also give the chosen an icon and make them even meaner while still being cheaper and as effective if not more effective then the 5 termies. You can give the termis a icon as well but then your pushing them over 400 pts as well as if you add any upgrades to them at all.

As most people play them and as the current book is termis are best used as termicide unless you are taking them for more fluffy reasons

Chosen are great for shooting with there option for so many special weapons but I think you are greatly short changing them by saying termis can do a better job then they can.

Chosen don't have a 2+ armour save nor a invulnerable save. So Chosen aren't as good for combat as Terminators plus have a less attack, to coin a phrase I think your comments about Chosen in c.c is rather, well, silly.

Chosen are better at shooting; not assault. That's what I am saying. Terminators are better at assault purposes.

Black Blow Fly wrote:What if you are playing against a horde army? Four meltaguns are not going to make back their points. There is also a concurrent thread about how awesome are fire dragons. It's all very situational at best. If you get the right matchup then sure the Chosen with meltaguns can do lots of damage. It just depends on what you are up against.

G

Then you obivously don't take meltas do you. That's why you take a balanced list. Meltas are just a example but you can take flamers and plasma too remember.

Fire Dragons are awesome. For busting tanks. That's all they do because they only have melta. Chosen are not stuck in that role you can kit them out so if you're silly enough (not saying you're silly BTW BBF to send 2 meltas at a horde then you deserve to lose them. As mentioned, Chosen are very flexible and have options for flamers too

mercer wrote:

1-UP wrote:
Maybe the Defiler too. Lots of folks think Oblits just plain outclass them, but they're perfectly playable heavy supports that can outperform Oblits from game to game.

Defilers aren't that good TBH. They 50/50 hit and not brilliant in combat needing even a 4+ to hit a Guardsmen through in low initiative and they sometimes cannot get the strike in or fail with sweeping advance.

I must play Defilers a bit differently from most folks. Instead of using them as a CC unit, I use treat them like a Battle Cannon platform that can defend itself in CC. Their ballistics skill is somewhat moot as it uses the scatter die. I have found, however, that I like using the Reaper Autocannon instead of swapping it out to a DCCW. It's just better at popping MC/Dreads that manage to get at your lines. Since MC's/Dreads are the units that are most dangerous to the Defiler, it's been a good fit and the twin-link again helps to mitigate that BS. In close combat, the low initiative is often not a factor because you're generally only worried about powerfists that run on I1. Defilers just need to avoid MC's and Dreads in CC, but you can't be good at everything. The 50/50 to hit in CC sucks, but that's what you're hitting on in CC 3/4 of the time anyway with most infantry and it doesn't matter for vehicle hunting.

I'm surprised you're down on lash so much. Yes, there's a lot of mech around, but any list that's worth a darn had better be able to pop those transports somewhat early. I've had a lot of success using the lash both offensively and defensively meched or not. The Defiler + Lash is a very powerful combo.

Edited to clarify some thoughts.

Dark
"valuable screening units...cheapest thing on the codex...better against banshees and terminators.."
lol ok whatever.

"I don't Like terminators against (basically everything)"
there's no point talking to you. Ignore.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mercer
if you're fighting alot of close combat games thegreater demon is alot better than against shooting. Since he too can charge strait out of the warp...
AF

1-UP wrote:

mercer wrote:

1-UP wrote:
Maybe the Defiler too. Lots of folks think Oblits just plain outclass them, but they're perfectly playable heavy supports that can outperform Oblits from game to game.

Defilers aren't that good TBH. They 50/50 hit and not brilliant in combat needing even a 4+ to hit a Guardsmen through in low initiative and they sometimes cannot get the strike in or fail with sweeping advance.

I must play Defilers a bit differently from most folks. Instead of using them as a CC unit, I use treat them like a Battle Cannon platform that can defend itself in CC. Their ballistics skill is somewhat moot as it uses the scatter die. I have found, however, that I like using the Reaper Autocannon instead of swapping it out to a DCCW. It's just better at popping MC/Dreads that manage to get at your lines. Since MC's/Dreads are the units that are most dangerous to the Defiler, it's been a good fit and the twin-link again helps to mitigate that BS. In close combat, the low initiative is often not a factor because you're generally only worried about powerfists that run on I1. Defilers just need to avoid MC's and Dreads in CC, but you can't be good at everything. The 50/50 to hit in CC sucks, but that's what you're hitting on in CC 3/4 of the time anyway with most infantry and it doesn't matter for vehicle hunting.

I'm surprised you're down on lash so much. Yes, there's a lot of mech around, but any list that's worth a darn had better be able to pop those transports somewhat early. I've had a lot of success using the lash both offensively and defensively meched or not. The Defiler + Lash is a very powerful combo.

Edited to clarify some thoughts.

Well the BS isn't a moot point because that means you scatter more.....

Reaper on dreads? I cannot remember but has it got rending? I think it has. Though you take that then you cannot fire hte cannon, which is pants as that's what you're paying for.

This isn't a major problem but melta bombs could be a problem against Defiler but I wouldn't worry about those. The point with the WS and I is it fails to hit often scoring a draw in combat or fails to get the sweeping advance, a Guardsman is I3.

Thanks for your thoughts.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mercer
if you're fighting alot of close combat games thegreater demon is alot better than against shooting. Since he too can charge strait out of the warp...
AF

Yeah I know mate. I rate G.D and use them. Getting the charge when coming down when in the thick of things is awesome, however it's obivously better in combat because it cannot shoot! Though it does have problems. Lack of fleet and wings make it slow so hopefully it appears where you need it to be.