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Lesser Daemons are not just 2 points cheaper.
CSM do not go onto the field naked.

You get a rhino, 2 specials, icons, fist... you end up with a unit that is 255 points...if we throw in a meltabomb on the champ we have a cool 260 points.

So. Lesser Daemons realistically are not 'just 2 points cheaper'. For 1 rhino squad you can have 20 lesser daemons.

CSM are mandatory, no question, but when you go beyond 3 such squads... I would suggest trying out the lesser daemons. A single 20 man squad has done exceptionally well. At the beginning it was all about the shock and awe/unfamiliarity. Afterwards, it's just something the opponent has to deal with and doesn't want to.

Sure, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but 'things' are not as simple as they seem.

Well true CSM don't usually go in naked but even if they did...
If you lose the combat the squad will evaporate no retreat.
If they show too early even lowly bolters can drag the whole squad...
If they show up when you need them snd get the charge then yeah it's nice
af

Evaporate is too strong of a word. They will get the charge. Realistically 14 get in and do 3 attacks each.
They take some back...with T4 and 5++ they are durable enough with respect to being 2 LD's for 1 CSM.
Then they do get their saves 'if' they lose combat.

You only need to move a rhino up first turn its full movement and are likely to get something in charge range.

Move 12" up the field (dudes stay in). If the rhino is still there (meaning less charge range).
Ld's come in 6" from rhino hull.
1" for the initial models' base hanging out.
3" for the 3 rings made by the 20 man squad.
6" charge.

So... from the middle line of the battlefield, they have an effective charge range of 16"...that's 4" into the enemy lines.

What if the CSM deployed out? That adds 3" on top of that (but leaves them exposed a turn before). Damned if you do, damned if you don't with respect to killing the single rhino.

And there should be at least 3 of such rhino squads around.

So... this example is assuming turn 2...which is the earliest they show up....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just trying to say that there is more to them than meets the eye....but so not trying to bring Transformers into this .

I'm just trying to say that there is more to them than meets the eye....but so not trying to bring Transformers into this

Daemons in disguise! lol

Yes but 50/50 they will show on turn 2 and it's nor just a question of range. If they're in your face that soon they're either mechanized so you have to kill the armor too if they aren't they're probably assault specialists (thunderwolves blood angels) and will beat the demons down or really mobile in which Case it's just a matter of them rearranging to avoid the charge. Then what do the demons do? All this assumes an army that wants to fight you in close combat. Against guard tau etc there's no way to even be sure of delivering them in cc even I'd they were spectacular fighters... Which they are not.
AF

If they come in early, they are hitting 3-4 in a Mech wall....that's pretty good with respect to getting more options for you.

In addition, they have to either go forward and go back and deal with them.
Which means exposed infantry or tanks not moving as far as they would like.

AF, this can go on back and forth, lets leave it that their usage can be applied competitively and throw a wrench into the opponent's plan...

Can they fail? Yes, but so far they have worked nicely, and I'm sure others can make them work well for them as well. But the poo pooing is mostly because of their comparisons to 3.5 , which I find useless and not on-topic these days.

My compromise will be that they are Functional Unit. They run disruption and reward more utilitarian uses...other than a combat unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@mercer:
I see what you did there.

You forgot spawn in your list.

Funny you should mention it.
I've had great experiences with them as well... in a list built to lose...I have had most suprising results.

Without getting too deep in the 'poo'...I will say they are functional as well, but yes, over priced by maybe 10 points. each....which is a hefty sum I will admit.

Sanctjud wrote:Funny you should mention it.
I've had great experiences with them as well... in a list built to lose...I have had most suprising results.

Without getting too deep in the 'poo'...I will say they are functional as well, but yes, over priced by maybe 10 points. each....which is a hefty sum I will admit.

Yay another spawn player who likes them, although they are slightly overpriced they're underated at S5, T5, D6 attacks and 3 wounds they're quite good (also at being human shields).

I was expecting hate replies from the whole of dakkadakka.

Don't get me wrong.
I like the 3.5 Spawn.
I hate the 4.0/5.0? Spawn...I doesn't make me completely discount it and throw it out.


_________________

Guys, I don't know about the other Chaos players...but I love Chaos. I love it so much that honestly, it gets boring with the same old competitive builds....at some point there's no where else to turn to but the 'crap' options.

This is why I started my Crap Legion...to use all these 'crap' choices to make the most of them... to my suprise, it's the reason why I spam the word 'functional', they have won more games than I had guessed and did more terraible things than my previous lists could have done...while being hilarious when stuff falls on its face.

Granted, it will be called the 'fun' items, but they hold their own IMO.

As for hate replies, only PM's, only PM's

mercer wrote:
Well the BS isn't a moot point because that means you scatter more.....

Reaper on dreads? I cannot remember but has it got rending? I think it has. Though you take that then you cannot fire hte cannon, which is pants as that's what you're paying for.

This isn't a major problem but melta bombs could be a problem against Defiler but I wouldn't worry about those. The point with the WS and I is it fails to hit often scoring a draw in combat or fails to get the sweeping advance, a Guardsman is I3.

Thanks for your thoughts.

/shrug, I agree that 4" less scatter is better than 3" less scatter, but it's not something that's going to factor in much when deciding whether or not to take the unit, at least to me.

The reaper is standard equipment on Defilers. It's basically just an autocannon with a 36" range and is twin-linked (No rending unfortunately). I very rarely shoot it and actually only started fielding one because I was missing a couple of DCCWs so I had to outfit it with something. It's just that it's happened to do what I needed it to do in a few games once I actually ran it. When Tyranid MC's are getting close, you're more likely to do significant damage with the Reaper than with the BC, same with Dreads. Additionally, the BC is the first thing they take when they manage a weapon destroyed roll and the Reaper is a nice backup that gives you some shooting ability still. It's kind of like a tool that you don't use very often, but when you've got a job that needs one it really makes life easier having it. Besides, you're not paying anything for it, just giving up +1 attacks. Since I try very hard to keep my Defilers out of CC I'm more or less inclined to start using one stock on all my Defilers.

The main reason I started running Defilers was my Predators were basically toast once something got to the backfield. I play against a lot of deepstrike and fast attack jump pack troops and they would just run rampant over my armor once they got back there (or kept it on the run, making them very limited in what kind of firepower they could put out). The Defilers give me the long range firepower I want, are very mobile, are reasonably costed, and can put up a fight if something gets back to shoot them. The AV12 isn't stellar, but it keeps a lot of the riff-raff from getting lucky shots and requires something that is at least semi-dedicated to Anti-Tank duty to take it out as glancing hits are so likely to be worthless. The long range of the BC and the mobility of the Dread allows it to dance out of range of most shooting weaponry that comes its way (Cover gives you a 50% chance of neutralizing a shot, being out of range gives you a 100% chance). When the outflankers or deepstrikers come in they get one chance to take out the Defiler. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. They ARE all nice and bunched up and out of cover though, making a nice Pie Plate target for your other Defilers.

If you're trying to run the Defiler like an assault CC dread though, I agree the WS3, I3 (more so the I3) pretty much kill it. As a reasonably priced Battle Cannon platform that can defend itself competently in CC, I think it deserves a spot as one of Chaos's top units.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:Lol, I like how you say termis are better at close combat, but you have them kitted for shooting in your unlimited list. If anything I'd say berzerkers are your best close combat/ points in the codex.

Here here... Beserkers rock, especially in large numbers and if you can get the drop on your opponent! And while were at it... Kharn? He is excellent. Chaos terminators armed with lightning claws are the best unit to back him up too, regular beserkers will undoubtably take a few "Betrayer" hits through the game but Termies can survive it better. Ideally I'd run kharn with termies in a land raider, backed up by ten beserkers in a rhino. The termies and kharn get to assault on disembarking and the beserkers come in to mop up next turn or tie up anything that my have the edge on kharn and the tac dread boys!

Nice thread!

mercer wrote:

Lechium wrote:Why on earth would you not take lash of submission? Forget warptime.

Lash is fail. It doesn't affect mech armies at all and if you lash stuff it's only a lucky dice roll to move a set distance and your hoping that some big blast template lands on target then. Then add in you need units to work around lash too.

Failing to pop transports is fail, lash is win. Lash is one of the most effective game-changing psychic powers in the game against opponents who aren't hooded out the wazoo.

Lash works well in combination with nearly anything, and by itself.

Want to flame a whole bunch of hoarde? Lash them into the shape of a flamer template.

Want to hit 7 Terminators with one PC shot? Lash them into a tight little cluster.

Want to smoke an entire squad of MEQs with a Battle Cannon? Lash them out of cover and into a ball.

That enemy unit a little bit too far away to assault? Lash them closer.

Turn 7, opponent had first turn, enemy infantry on an objective? Lash them off of it.

We know full well what one can do with it.
The only issue is that again, it's not just mech, there are other issues.

People know about it full well by now...and a gimmicky things is a gimmicky things.

DP's are not hard to crack, while the Sorcs just need to be killed (simple to say, somewhat hard to do).

On the flip side, you take lash for the possibility of use. It's cheap and the oppurtunity cost is pretty low in the big picture.

Now...what I will say is:
LASH IS PHAIL FOR THOSE THAT RELY ON IT.
^It is canon.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

mercer wrote:

Lechium wrote:Why on earth would you not take lash of submission? Forget warptime.

Lash is fail. It doesn't affect mech armies at all and if you lash stuff it's only a lucky dice roll to move a set distance and your hoping that some big blast template lands on target then. Then add in you need units to work around lash too.

Failing to pop transports is fail, lash is win. Lash is one of the most effective game-changing psychic powers in the game against opponents who aren't hooded out the wazoo.

Lash works well in combination with nearly anything, and by itself.

Want to flame a whole bunch of hoarde? Lash them into the shape of a flamer template.

Want to hit 7 Terminators with one PC shot? Lash them into a tight little cluster.

Want to smoke an entire squad of MEQs with a Battle Cannon? Lash them out of cover and into a ball.

That enemy unit a little bit too far away to assault? Lash them closer.

Turn 7, opponent had first turn, enemy infantry on an objective? Lash them off of it.

I'm coming round to the idea of the Lash Whip! Having read this it does encourage me to take two daemon princes as first stated in the thread. One armed with Lash and one with Warp Time! But before reading this i had dismissed it entirely!

Sanctjud wrote:We know full well what one can do with it.
The only issue is that again, it's not just mech, there are other issues.

People know about it full well by now...and a gimmicky things is a gimmicky things.

DP's are not hard to crack, while the Sorcs just need to be killed (simple to say, somewhat hard to do).

On the flip side, you take lash for the possibility of use. It's cheap and the oppurtunity cost is pretty low in the big picture.

Now...what I will say is:
LASH IS PHAIL FOR THOSE THAT RELY ON IT.
^It is canon.

Yeah totally, you can't rely on it, but you can't rely on any one unit to make it or break it for you. For me, though, it's one of those tools that when it works, it can be absolutely devastating. Given the fact that MoS and Lash costs about the same as a Power Fist, I really don't think it's much of a risk to use it.

There is nothing more frustrating, though, than getting lashed around like a ragdoll and having nothing you can do about it. Doesn't usually happen with Marines, Guard, or Eldar, but Orks, DE, Tau, etc really take it in the poopchute from a properly applied lashing.

I like spawn too. If I can turn their general into one
cult of tzeentch with gift of chaos ten times? anyone? anyone?
AF

Nah. Vs. a faster list, at least the bought spawn have a chance at catching up.

10 Spawnings is like 5 sorcs..which means a minimum of 5 Sorc in 5 TS squads...too much phail for balanced play and stupid points costs, though it might work a bit better vs. GEQ hordes.

Someone wrote a really good Gift of Chaos list... was it Dreadnote? No... His avatar is a red Dreadnought head. Usually plays foot-slogging Eldar. I'll see if I can find it.

1-UP wrote:
The reaper is standard equipment on Defilers. It's basically just an autocannon with a 36" range and is twin-linked (No rending unfortunately). I very rarely shoot it and actually only started fielding one because I was missing a couple of DCCWs so I had to outfit it with something. It's just that it's happened to do what I needed it to do in a few games once I actually ran it. When Tyranid MC's are getting close, you're more likely to do significant damage with the Reaper than with the BC, same with Dreads. Additionally, the BC is the first thing they take when they manage a weapon destroyed roll and the Reaper is a nice backup that gives you some shooting ability still. It's kind of like a tool that you don't use very often, but when you've got a job that needs one it really makes life easier having it. Besides, you're not paying anything for it, just giving up +1 attacks. Since I try very hard to keep my Defilers out of CC I'm more or less inclined to start using one stock on all my Defilers.

The other thing- a immobolized and weapon destroyed result still lets you pop reaper shots at BS 3 its not much but twinlinked means it can still pop transports and light armour like kans.

Sanctjud wrote:We know full well what one can do with it.
The only issue is that again, it's not just mech, there are other issues.

People know about it full well by now...and a gimmicky things is a gimmicky things.

DP's are not hard to crack, while the Sorcs just need to be killed (simple to say, somewhat hard to do).

On the flip side, you take lash for the possibility of use. It's cheap and the oppurtunity cost is pretty low in the big picture.

Now...what I will say is:
LASH IS PHAIL FOR THOSE THAT RELY ON IT.
^It is canon.

Relying on Lash flail. One thing I feel needing mention is lash's ability to negate coversaves- sure you might not roll enough/have the units nearby for the classic group-em-up-into-a-pie-shape... However, dragging just over half of the squad out of cover can be tremendously helpful. Against armies like guard or orks, lash isn't just for blast weapons- it can also be devastating with the simple boltgun. The same can apply to something like plague marines sitting on an objective in cover- lash them out of their protection and blast them with 4 plasma gun havocs!

Which is something thats been unmentioned... the good ol' 4x special weapon havoc. Not a high contender for my HS slots...but in one game I scored 40-something wounds on a squad of boyz (battlewagon formation )

sanct.
its just something quirky to do. you can put it on both of your hqs too. idk if you can get it 10 times exactly but you can get it alot. not super competitive but def. fun.

sisters hate it. they have to use all their faith points protecting themselves against your bolters, their rending stuff just knocks your 3+ down to a 4++, all their guys are tn 3 so they're really vulnerable to being spawned, etc etc. hate sisters. thousand sons bring the pain to that 1 particular faction.
AF

Jihallah wrote:

1-UP wrote:
The reaper is standard equipment on Defilers. It's basically just an autocannon with a 36" range and is twin-linked (No rending unfortunately). I very rarely shoot it and actually only started fielding one because I was missing a couple of DCCWs so I had to outfit it with something. It's just that it's happened to do what I needed it to do in a few games once I actually ran it. When Tyranid MC's are getting close, you're more likely to do significant damage with the Reaper than with the BC, same with Dreads. Additionally, the BC is the first thing they take when they manage a weapon destroyed roll and the Reaper is a nice backup that gives you some shooting ability still. It's kind of like a tool that you don't use very often, but when you've got a job that needs one it really makes life easier having it. Besides, you're not paying anything for it, just giving up +1 attacks. Since I try very hard to keep my Defilers out of CC I'm more or less inclined to start using one stock on all my Defilers.

The other thing- a immobolized and weapon destroyed result still lets you pop reaper shots at BS 3 its not much but twinlinked means it can still pop transports and light armour like kans.

Ahhhh-ctually, not quite. Battlecannons are statistically better against armor than a Reaper. There is a slight trade off, in that Battlecannons have 55-66% accuracy and the Autocannon has a blunt 75% (and with two shots that's a hit), but the Battlecannon has vastly superior penetration (lol). S8 Ordnance vs AV11 has a 75% chance to pen, while the Autocannon has only a 33% chance. On top of that, S8 Ordnance can hurt any armor value with reasonably often given that anti-tank is a secondary role. The larger the vehicle the more accurate the shot, so what you lose in penetration you gain in accurary.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Dark
"valuable screening units...cheapest thing on the codex...better against banshees and terminators.."
lol ok whatever.

"I don't Like terminators against (basically everything)"
there's no point talking to you. Ignore.
AF

I felt I should briefly adress this for my sake.

I like Terminators in very specific match ups: MEQs, but there aren't enough Tactical squads to warrent the points you'd have to spend. Like I've said before, they have too few attacks to possibly be effective against hordes, and while Lightning Claws, Championship and the Icon of Khorne can increase their killing power it actually makes them less cost effective. Other Terminators are simply better: BT have re-rolls everywhere, Codex Marines have 3++, Blood Angels have Furious Charge, Wolves have a 3++ but don't have to lose their attack at initiative. They also have better means of delivery: Landraiders or, in the case of BT and Wolves, Drop Pods. Their Terminators need these things; with them they are able to engage a much broader range of targets which increases the likelyhood they'll be able to earn their keep. The base stats aren't enough, and that's all our Terminators have.

So what do our Terminators have? Guns, a tiny base cost and squad size, and an abundance of Deepstrike homers. So that's what we use them for: Termicide. However, no other means of deployment style plays to their strengths. Our Landraiders are inefficient at carrying them into close combat (can't carry enough Terminators, can't shoot while driving) where the Terminators themselves are further inefficient (for the reasons outlined). Footslogging Terminators aren't durable enough to make it to their effective range: 12". Deepstriking close combat Terminators combine the problems of footslogging and Landraider riding Terminators: lack of durability on the turn they arrive leading to a lack of effectiveness if they make it into close combat.

I second Dark. The only time i've seen terminators be useful (albeit i've not been playing for as long as y'all) was when a squad of three deepstruck behind my shadowsword and meltaed it to death. the next turn they were annihlated.

seconding dark is ill omened indeed.
AF

Oh is it now? how unfortunate that my opinion is so inferior to yours...

sorry do I make you feel inferior?

not really. no.

cool

Why do I try? Guys, get a room, else, keep it to the topic on hand. Lets not get the modhammer button on standby.

Ferrum wrote:I second Dark. The only time i've seen terminators be useful (albeit i've not been playing for as long as y'all) was when a squad of three deepstruck behind my shadowsword and meltaed it to death. the next turn they were annihlated.

I think the point here is that a squad of three, costing in the region of 120 pts before wargear, took out a super heavy which costs? Do the math and the squad of three definately proved its worth! And in my opinion, they were annihilated in the next turn because you'd have been hell bent on blowing them away so they couldn't continue to wreak havoc... therefore presenting a valid arguement that you were worried by the terminators. Clearly they were a threat. If they aint good why would you have focused your attention on them?