1-UP wrote:

mercer wrote:
Well the BS isn't a moot point because that means you scatter more.....

Reaper on dreads? I cannot remember but has it got rending? I think it has. Though you take that then you cannot fire hte cannon, which is pants as that's what you're paying for.

This isn't a major problem but melta bombs could be a problem against Defiler but I wouldn't worry about those. The point with the WS and I is it fails to hit often scoring a draw in combat or fails to get the sweeping advance, a Guardsman is I3.

Thanks for your thoughts.

/shrug, I agree that 4" less scatter is better than 3" less scatter, but it's not something that's going to factor in much when deciding whether or not to take the unit, at least to me.

The reaper is standard equipment on Defilers. It's basically just an autocannon with a 36" range and is twin-linked (No rending unfortunately). I very rarely shoot it and actually only started fielding one because I was missing a couple of DCCWs so I had to outfit it with something. It's just that it's happened to do what I needed it to do in a few games once I actually ran it. When Tyranid MC's are getting close, you're more likely to do significant damage with the Reaper than with the BC, same with Dreads. Additionally, the BC is the first thing they take when they manage a weapon destroyed roll and the Reaper is a nice backup that gives you some shooting ability still. It's kind of like a tool that you don't use very often, but when you've got a job that needs one it really makes life easier having it. Besides, you're not paying anything for it, just giving up +1 attacks. Since I try very hard to keep my Defilers out of CC I'm more or less inclined to start using one stock on all my Defilers.

The main reason I started running Defilers was my Predators were basically toast once something got to the backfield. I play against a lot of deepstrike and fast attack jump pack troops and they would just run rampant over my armor once they got back there (or kept it on the run, making them very limited in what kind of firepower they could put out). The Defilers give me the long range firepower I want, are very mobile, are reasonably costed, and can put up a fight if something gets back to shoot them. The AV12 isn't stellar, but it keeps a lot of the riff-raff from getting lucky shots and requires something that is at least semi-dedicated to Anti-Tank duty to take it out as glancing hits are so likely to be worthless. The long range of the BC and the mobility of the Dread allows it to dance out of range of most shooting weaponry that comes its way (Cover gives you a 50% chance of neutralizing a shot, being out of range gives you a 100% chance). When the outflankers or deepstrikers come in they get one chance to take out the Defiler. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. They ARE all nice and bunched up and out of cover though, making a nice Pie Plate target for your other Defilers.

If you're trying to run the Defiler like an assault CC dread though, I agree the WS3, I3 (more so the I3) pretty much kill it. As a reasonably priced Battle Cannon platform that can defend itself competently in CC, I think it deserves a spot as one of Chaos's top units.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

mercer wrote:

Lechium wrote:Why on earth would you not take lash of submission? Forget warptime.

Lash is fail. It doesn't affect mech armies at all and if you lash stuff it's only a lucky dice roll to move a set distance and your hoping that some big blast template lands on target then. Then add in you need units to work around lash too.

Failing to pop transports is fail, lash is win. Lash is one of the most effective game-changing psychic powers in the game against opponents who aren't hooded out the wazoo.

Lash works well in combination with nearly anything, and by itself.

Want to flame a whole bunch of hoarde? Lash them into the shape of a flamer template.

Want to hit 7 Terminators with one PC shot? Lash them into a tight little cluster.

Want to smoke an entire squad of MEQs with a Battle Cannon? Lash them out of cover and into a ball.

That enemy unit a little bit too far away to assault? Lash them closer.

Turn 7, opponent had first turn, enemy infantry on an objective? Lash them off of it.

mercer wrote:

Lash is fail. Your blasts can scatter and you need to get the flamers in range, you fail to kill the unit those flamers will get assaulted. Lash is too gimmicky and everyone knows how to count it. Daemon Princes aren't hard to put down with a hail of plasma, lash sorcerers are better, if you're gonna take lash. Only time lash has been effective against me is lashing units away from a objective with templates etc they just scattered and missed.

DarkHound wrote:

Jihallah wrote:The other thing- a immobolized and weapon destroyed result still lets you pop reaper shots at BS 3 its not much but twinlinked means it can still pop transports and light armour like kans.

Ahhhh-ctually, not quite. Battlecannons are statistically better against armor than a Reaper. There is a slight trade off, in that Battlecannons have 55-66% accuracy and the Autocannon has a blunt 75% (and with two shots that's a hit), but the Battlecannon has vastly superior penetration (lol). S8 Ordnance vs AV11 has a 75% chance to pen, while the Autocannon has only a 33% chance. On top of that, S8 Ordnance can hurt any armor value with reasonably often given that anti-tank is a secondary role. The larger the vehicle the more accurate the shot, so what you lose in penetration you gain in accurary.

mercer wrote:
Oblits cost max 225 points for a unit of 3. Havocs cost min 150 points for 10 strong and then throw on weaps. You take a min Havoc unit with speicals you're still talking 180-200 points while cheaper than Oblits the Oblits have ALL the weapons which is massively important and a edge and a lot more survivable with 2+ and a power fist for close combat. The point is Oblits are not a fire support platform, you don't stand there with lascannons if you're using them that way then you're using them wrong and that's why you think Havocs are better.

Jihallah wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Jihallah wrote:The other thing- a immobolized and weapon destroyed result still lets you pop reaper shots at BS 3 its not much but twinlinked means it can still pop transports and light armour like kans.

Ahhhh-ctually, not quite. Battlecannons are statistically better against armor than a Reaper. There is a slight trade off, in that Battlecannons have 55-66% accuracy and the Autocannon has a blunt 75% (and with two shots that's a hit), but the Battlecannon has vastly superior penetration (lol). S8 Ordnance vs AV11 has a 75% chance to pen, while the Autocannon has only a 33% chance. On top of that, S8 Ordnance can hurt any armor value with reasonably often given that anti-tank is a secondary role. The larger the vehicle the more accurate the shot, so what you lose in penetration you gain in accurary.

What I meant was when you are immobolized and your battlecannon is destroyed, you can still shoot your RAC- a trade off for the +1A. Sure it doesn't happen all the time, but I've often copped/dealt a immobolized and/or weap. destroyed result from a bunch of glancing hits.

Inigo Montoya wrote:I move 6", shoot the battlecannon, it then dies.

AbaddonFidelis wrote: as far as blast masters. it just goes to show you how far the chaos codex has fallen that this thing would excite anyone. loyalists get plasma cannons (imo a better gun) for 5 points in their tactical squad.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

mercer wrote:

Lash is fail. Your blasts can scatter and you need to get the flamers in range, you fail to kill the unit those flamers will get assaulted. Lash is too gimmicky and everyone knows how to count it. Daemon Princes aren't hard to put down with a hail of plasma, lash sorcerers are better, if you're gonna take lash. Only time lash has been effective against me is lashing units away from a objective with templates etc they just scattered and missed.

So you're saying that Lash is fail because you *might* miss, with the blast weapon that you're using to shoot the clustered unit?

You roll the dice for nearly everything in 40k. Everything misses occasionally. Plasma guns miss, lascannons miss, railguns miss, bolters miss. I really don't see how you can conclude that "Lash is fail" from the fact that occasionally, the weapons with which shoot the clustered unit MAY miss.

Everything is a gamble. Avenger is a S5 AP3 flamer template that requires a psychic test to cast, and can be nullified by hood. Still, most Vanilla Marine players will agree that it's one of the best psychic powers available to them. What you're basically saying here is that Lash sucks because you have to get close to use template weapons, and that if the template weapon doesn't wipe the unit then they're going to get assaulted. Well no &@!%, Sherlock. That's how the game works, and that's why you roll the dice.

Halsfield wrote:

mercer wrote:
Oblits cost max 225 points for a unit of 3. Havocs cost min 150 points for 10 strong and then throw on weaps. You take a min Havoc unit with speicals you're still talking 180-200 points while cheaper than Oblits the Oblits have ALL the weapons which is massively important and a edge and a lot more survivable with 2+ and a power fist for close combat. The point is Oblits are not a fire support platform, you don't stand there with lascannons if you're using them that way then you're using them wrong and that's why you think Havocs are better.

Was reading through the thread and came across this and had to comment.

You're only comparing things that make the oblits look better. Yes, oblits have a wide range of heavy weapons to choose from, but they also only get a single shot per 75pts on a model which fears instant death. With havocs you can get 5havocs with 8 str7 shots for 155pts. That squad has one less wound than the 3 oblits spread across almost double the models. Oblits are not a fire support platform? That is exactly what one of their roles is. They have extremely limited movement and a variety of long range weaponry. I agree that lascannons should not be used by oblits and if someone is they should have taken predators or havocs for their cheaper lascannons.

Can they also be used in a deep strike situation to protect your HQ or support other DSing units? Yes, but fire support is definitely in their playbook. Even if you are running them as a close-in support unit the havocs have an equally good load-out for that role. Load them into a rhino with special weapons and let them devastate some heavy vehicles or whatever else they are pointed at.

I'm not saying havocs are better or oblits are worse, but your reasoning behind why you picked oblits over havocs could use some fine tuning. I run a mix of oblits for variable fire and havocs for cheap volumes of high str fire and it works out extremely well. 75pts per shot whether you're using a flamer or a lascannon is just not an efficient usage of 3 heavy slots imo.

DJ66 wrote:First off, wow it has been a long time since I've posted on here.

Second, no one has stuck up for one of my favorite units the OP threw under the bus: Noise Marines

They are the cheapest cult unit (base) and I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of the Blast Master. It is 40 points of solid gold rock n roll.
Str 8 AP 3 Small Blast, Pinning
That is all you need to know. It pwns MEQ's and Horde alike and can even pop light armor in a pinch. 140 points for 5 men and a Blast Master. I don't leave home without one unit like this.

mercer wrote:

If you had to comemnt Halsfield you'd notice my reply was to someone who suggested Havocs. I didn't chose to compare them to Havocs, not that I remember anyway.

When I think of fire platform I think of sitting there blasting away with lascannons and was you agree that's not what they do. They're best for either deep striking in and getting close with meltas or flamers etc and using a variety of weapons tackling units from afar. Perhaps the word lascannon-platform would be more better?