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I want to know which codex is the best shooty army. I mean overall, not just "Long Fangs muff stuff up!", or "RAILGUNS!". I mean taken as an integrated army system, with units supporting each other, to get the most out of their shooting phase.

P.S. if I missed any armies, let me know.

I'm no Guard buff but I know 20 Lascannons are good stuff. Long Fangs rock because the Wolves player is also rocking you in combat the whole time but pure shooting goes to Guard.

Orks is da best!

Big Mek w/KFF 85 Points
2x(11xLootas) 330 Points
10xLootas 150 Points
5x(29xShoota Boys[3 w/Rokkit Launchas]+Nob w/Klaw) 1225 Points
2x(3xWarbuggies w/TL Rokkits) 210 Points

2000 Points

DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA

I believe IG<SW. This is why:

Imperial Guard get most of their heavy hitting shooters in the HS slot. Sure they can get infantry heavy weapons, but most of the HWs ends up coming from HS or vendettas.

Space Wolves can more effectively make use of FOC slots. They get very good heavy weapons for their points cost, missile launchers, AND las/plas razorbacks for each slot. Unlike IG, these two units cannot be suppressed together and don't suffer from squadron rules, like having to shoot at the same target.

Imperial Guard can bring loads of cheap twin-linked lascannons and nice str10 pieplates, but ultimately, once FOC run out, the Space Wolves can make better use of those slots.

I would really want to answer ''Tau'', but unfortunately that would be a lie. >

IG have finally outpaced the Tau for excellent shooting. Squadrons of Russes and Valkyries will devour anything and everything on the board.

haizelhoff wrote:I believe IG<SW. This is why:

Imperial Guard get most of their heavy hitting shooters in the HS slot. Sure they can get infantry heavy weapons, but most of the HWs ends up coming from HS or vendettas.

Space Wolves can more effectively make use of FOC slots. They get very good heavy weapons for their points cost, missile launchers, AND las/plas razorbacks for each slot. Unlike IG, these two units cannot be suppressed together and don't suffer from squadron rules, like having to shoot at the same target.

Imperial Guard can bring loads of cheap twin-linked lascannons and nice str10 pieplates, but ultimately, once FOC run out, the Space Wolves can make better use of those slots.

I would really want to answer ''Tau'', but unfortunately that would be a lie. >

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the IG being able to take heavy weapons in every slot... Infantry squads get one each and then there's heavy weapon squads, plus sentinels, vendettas, or hellhounds in fast attack, even HQs can have a HWT in the command squad. The heavy support slot can fit in as many as 9 tanks as well. That makes for a ton of heavy weapons, if you can afford them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also meant to mention that you can put those heavy weapons squads in chimeras, which creates a unit as effective as a razorback when all things are considered.

Tau

Tau would be the best, if you didn't get more value per point spent out of IG. While individually Tau units are better, they just are not as efficient in terms of point costs. Since you get more bang for your buck out IG, they come out on top. I'd like to see a revised Tau codex put them slightly ahead again.

Space Wolves and Tau can put out more shots than guard, but guard easily throws out the most templates of any kind. Executioners, Demolishers, Battlecannons, heavy flamers on Chimeras, all the artillery pieces, Hellhounds and their variants...hell, there's even armoured sentinels with plasma cannons if you really want.

Can of worms! Hoooooo!

Imperial Guard or Blood Angels (yes!) get my vote.

IG get squadronned Heavy Support slots, upto 5, 3 x heavy weapons and upto 5, 1 x heavy weapons PER TROOPS SLOT and can generally take more big guns than any other codex in the game at the moment.

Blood Angels can take a re-diculous amounts of fast(!) assault cannon Razorbacks, Vindicators and Baal predators. Couple this with DoA Assault squads and cheaper-than-thou Devestators and a strong, shooty and most importantly, mobile army you have.

L. Wrex

i belive that vanille marines are contenders.


they may not have as many shots as IG, but they make that up in the quality. Typhoons can put out cheap accurate missiles, Dreadnoughts are the most efficient and accurate Auto-cannons in the game, and this is combined with the resiliancy of 3+ armor and good CC support.

I don't think any flavor of marines can really compete. Every since slot in IG/Tau can be filled with point efficient shooty choices. They can get more better shots for their points. Sure, marines will have better assaulting units to compensate, but purely considering shooting they are not a contender. Razor+longfang spam Wolves/mechspam bloodangels are as close as it gets. But in pure shooting I think they are still behind IG/Tau (to a lesser extent)

I don't think that vanilla marines even hold a candle... Sorry. Too few in quantity. If youre looking to wipe an opponent from the table in a shooting phase, only the guard and some variant codex of SM have that ability in the imperial forces. Vanilla SM cannot get enough long-range heavy weapons to compare.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I don't think that vanilla marines even hold a candle... Sorry. Too few in quantity. If youre looking to wipe an opponent from the table in a shooting phase, only the guard and some variant codex of SM have that ability in the imperial forces. Vanilla SM cannot get enough long-range heavy weapons to compare.

Really? I'm not sure that's entirely true. How about a challenge on that one. You pick one of the non-vanilla codices and make a list, any value up to 2k. Then I'll make a vanilla list that packs in as many heavy weapons and we'll see if your statement holds up.

I think IG beat Space Wolves.

A Chimera beats a Las/plas Razorback at any distance between 25" and 42", head to head trying to kill each other. Which is normal turn 1 engagement distance in 40k.

IG also makes better use of cover, having cheap models who maximize the value of cover saves, and being able to grant their more valuable vehicles improved cover saves via camo nets, and shielding them with the cheaper Chimeras.

Long Fangs are great, but IG infantry weapons can either be twin-linked or force you to re-roll your cover saves.

In truth a pair of maxed-out shooty armies will come down more to who gets the first turn, though IG should win that contest too, as they can use officers to Reserve more effectively and impair the SW's ability to Reserve against them.

Dracos wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I don't think that vanilla marines even hold a candle... Sorry. Too few in quantity. If youre looking to wipe an opponent from the table in a shooting phase, only the guard and some variant codex of SM have that ability in the imperial forces. Vanilla SM cannot get enough long-range heavy weapons to compare.

Really? I'm not sure that's entirely true. How about a challenge on that one. You pick one of the non-vanilla codices and make a list, any value up to 2k. Then I'll make a vanilla list that packs in as many heavy weapons and we'll see if your statement holds up.

Moot point, because IG trumps all the SM in the number of heavy weapons they can take.

IG, hands down.

yeah. there's really no contest here.

Yep - IG can take more. Lets say at 1850 points they bring 50 heavy weapons...... ~25 hit, BiD not-with-standing unless Kell is on the table. (45 AC and 5 LC)

Vanilla Marines at 1850 bring 30 HW's for ~20 hits (assuming single shot weapons for simplicity sake). (mix from TL HB through LC)

vanilla Marines really do it for me, A Msl in tac squads, plenty of melta available. Lascannons and Missles everywhere you look ... and they can take an assault lol

I play IG and SM

BS3 makes me cry too often even with Vendettas

A difference of one pip of the dice does not account for the disparity in quantity, really. Battle cannons do not benefit that much from +1 BS. Orders help further close the gap. SM cannot get the kind of raw shooting firepower that IG can get. We are not talking about toughness, or saves, but raw firepower when it comes to shooting. How many S10 blast templates can SM get? IG can get nine, just out of the heavy support slot. Add in a possible 9 flyers with 3 TL Lascannons each, and it gets ridiculous. That's not even counting the weapons available to infantry. Granted, you won't max out the force org chart in normal games, but point-for-point the guard are just plain more effective at shooting than vanilla SM.

depends how you look at it, starters basic troops.
Ratlings are better at snipin
Boltgun vs lasgun ... the special weapons are nice I admit
I'll take the Hydra over the Russes
Now I remember why I bought guard ...

Alright admitted guard has raw power

Dracos wrote:
Really? I'm not sure that's entirely true. How about a challenge on that one. You pick one of the non-vanilla codices and make a list, any value up to 2k. Then I'll make a vanilla list that packs in as many heavy weapons and we'll see if your statement holds up.

Can you do that, and post it here? Just interested to see your list.

As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

mmmmmmmm, dakka

IG gets my vote.

First rank fire, Second rank fire

i have seen a blob squad of 31 guardsmen (3 sgt, 3 melta, 24 lasguns, and a commissar) take down a squad of 5 termies like they were nothing with that order. it was impresive. i think a total of 14 wounds were scored against those five. not even SM can make that many saves.

Dracos wrote:As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

So if i bring Hydras can i count them as 3 Hvy weapons per vehicle? 2 twin linked Hydra cannons and a Hull HB?
if so 3 HS slots with with 3 sqd. of Hydras each would be 27 hvy wpns. and that's just the HS sllots. start counting Inf. squads and it really gets sick....
sorry, IG all day long.....

Read my earlier posts, I said exactly what you just said. You post that like you are refuting a claim of mine. All I said was that vanilla marines can pack the firepower into a list the same as other SM armies.

IG is still king.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:So if i bring Hydras can i count them as 3 Hvy weapons per vehicle? 2 twin linked Hydra cannons and a Hull HB?
if so 3 HS slots with with 3 sqd. of Hydras each would be 27 hvy wpns. and that's just the HS sllots. start counting Inf. squads and it really gets sick....
sorry, IG all day long.....

It helps to read the whole thread.

edit: Just out of curiosity, how many points is the 9 hydras?

Dracos wrote:Read my earlier posts, I said exactly what you just said. You post that like you are refuting a claim of mine. All I said was that vanilla marines can pack the firepower into a list the same as other SM armies.

IG is still king.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:So if i bring Hydras can i count them as 3 Hvy weapons per vehicle? 2 twin linked Hydra cannons and a Hull HB?
if so 3 HS slots with with 3 sqd. of Hydras each would be 27 hvy wpns. and that's just the HS sllots. start counting Inf. squads and it really gets sick....
sorry, IG all day long.....

It helps to read the whole thread.

i was agreeing with you....

and i did read it, Thanks!

Thats some tasty dakka right there!