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Nah you would probly table him with the list as-is. especially if you got first turn. byebye gribblies lol

Ok, time for a 2500 point list then... just for kicks.

I call this one, "Different Strokes for Different Folks"

2500 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - Different Strokes, Different Folks

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 65 pts
1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 715 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 715 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannon)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannon)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannon x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 445 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 445 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Mortar x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)


Total Roster Cost: 2385

Still leaves plenty of room for other stuff, like maybe creed and another CCS for more orders abilities.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So let's count up what we have there: We have 18 of each weapon in a platoon. That comes out to

18 Lascannon Shots
36 Autocannon Shots
18 Mortar Shots
19 Missile Launcher Shots

So, considering there are no other influencing factors, mathhammer says guardsmen firing those (let's ignore orders for right now) will hit their targets 1/2 of the time (for direct fire weapons). If the guardsmen get first turn to fire (and all weapons are in range), ignoring mortars, that still comes out to:

9 S9 AP2 hits
18 S7 AP4 hits
9.5 S8 AP3 hits
A crap-ton of lasguns.

That's some firepower right there. Not a lot of units are going to be able to return that kind of fire.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let's look at a huge missile spam list just for comparison:

2500 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML SPAM 2

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 65 pts
1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)


Total Roster Cost: 2475

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that one is a bit more expensive, so you won't have room left over for orders. With this many MLs, though, you probably won't need orders...

That is... 70 missile launchers. Direct firing, same assumptions as above, that means a whopping 35 of them will hit. That is a lot of S8 AP3 shots. That is enough glancing hits to make mincemeat of even AV14.



Either list you use, that totally annihilates anything the tyranids can put out as far as shooting goes.

It seems like Dark Eldar can put out some really effective shooting, and could do some serious damage to that IG list in the shooting phase (not to mention being able to zerg up and CC) -

HQ

3x Haemonculus 150
3x Haemonculus 150

Troops

120 Kabalite Warriors 1080

Elites

10 Trueborn w/ haywire grenades, shardcarbine, 4x blaster
230
10 Trueborn w/ haywire grenades, shardcarbine, 4x blaster
230
10 Trueborn w/ haywire grenades, shardcarbine, 4x blaster
230

Fast Attack

Razorwing 145
Razorwing 145
Razorwing 145

Comes out to 2505, so just ditch a warrior or something.

It's a good amount of shots and the 12 razorwing templates on turn 1 would be pretty effective at clearing out blobs.

You could always play with the quantities for more dark lances or less Haemonc's for FnP and ditch the carbines if you don't plan on chasing stuff around, or swap em for scourge with haywire blasters or something, but the idea is basically swarms of dark eldar are probably some of the more potent things you can field.

I will be getting all of my lists from foxPhoenix from now on . Freakin awesome.

Slight off-topic: do you guys think Voxs are worth it? Im running a mostly infantry army with Al'rahem and Creed, so I will be using lots of orders obviously.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So should I add another 500 points to my ML Spam list above to prove IG can outshoot nids?

2500 pts go wild

that was more of a joke post than anything im sure IG can do better

EDIT: damn didnt see next page, plus i was going more for quantity than quality

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, the church of Stelek. one of the many cults to have formed around 40k.

Members must worship the Dark Apostle Stelek and hang on his every word. they must also lurk around YTTH, and any other forums, and pounce on any opposing viewpoints.

Maybe if you prove yourself to be better than him, I ll give your opinions some weight too.

O man! thems fightin' words!

Davicus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, the church of Stelek. one of the many cults to have formed around 40k.

Members must worship the Dark Apostle Stelek and hang on his every word. they must also lurk around YTTH, and any other forums, and pounce on any opposing viewpoints.

Maybe if you prove yourself to be better than him, I ll give your opinions some weight too.

Oh, gag me... Why must we get into debates like this? He's just another dude playing 40k, not a prophet for pete's sake... Do you try to do the butterfly stroke like Michael Phelps every time you visit the community pool for a swim? No?

Let's keep the stelek praising/bashing to a minimum, as it has nothing to do with Imperial Superiority... er.... I mean this thread.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote: He's just another dude playing 40k, not a prophet for pete's sake... Do you try to do the butterfly stroke like Michael Phelps every time you visit the community pool for a swim? No?

Let's keep the stelek praising/bashing to a minimum, as it has nothing to do with Imperial Superiority... er.... I mean this thread.

Only that he plays it much better than you do.

Wow guy, are you hoping stelek reads this and gives you a cookie for being such a good little fan boy? It has no relevance to the thread, so stop trying to make it personal.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Wow guy, are you hoping stelek reads this and gives you a cookie for being such a good little fan boy? It has no relevance to the thread, so stop trying to make it personal.

So since when does speaking the fact (about him being much better than you) makes someone a fan boy?
And I think your choice of words has more intention of making it personal than I do.

So you have witnessed me play 40k? When was this? How can you state a "fact" without having the pertinent information?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So you have witnessed me play 40k? When was this? How can you state a "fact" without having the pertinent information?

The power of stelek compels him...

At any rate, we can obviously see that the current holder for "shootiest" army is the IG. I'm ducking out now before it gets any worse in this thread... Some people take this stuff way too personally.

Regardless of Stelek's abilities it's not the purpose of this thread. So if you two want to continue, do it with a PM or a new thread.

IG. The strength of Guard lies in it's options. It has the ability to field what it needs to field, period. Your Eldar list need reliable long-range anti-tank? Sucks. Deal with Lances or get some Fire Dragons.

From Heavy Weapons Teams, to Ordnance Barrage, to Tanks, to Transports, to Infantry, it has what firepower you need, at what range you need it.

Eldar FTW

striderx wrote:Eldar FTW

Oh, how I wish. I've fallen in love with Eldar and are trying my best with them, but I don't see any reliable way in our group other than Fire Dragons with Wave Serpents.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:So you have witnessed me play 40k? When was this? How can you state a "fact" without having the pertinent information?

You have any placing in NovaCon? Ard Boyz? No, looks like you have nothing.

dude he peace'd out a while ago. Let it go.

a moderator wrote:Let's all calm down and stick to the topic, rather than casting aspersions at each other.

So...with the ability to put enough BS4 bright lances on the table to not care about heavy vehicle spam, and the ability to spam tons of excellent anti-infantry bs4 shooting in the form of splinter weapons, and the ability to dump 12 s6 large blasts on the first turn for very cheap via Razorwings, I would still say Dark Eldar are the best shooting army out there. A good build with them should be able to outshoot the largest variety of enemy builds without massively compromising their ability to win games.

The last bit is actually the important part, not "I can field 18.5% more missile hits/turn than you"

The problem for anyone these days is not dealing with heavy vehicle spam... the only "top tier" build with high av is BA pred/razorspam and even that is only FA 13. Everything else spams AV 10-12 armour, which makes the lance spam not as powerful. The dark eldar codex tries to use darklances/blasters to fill all anti-av roles, but its not terrible effective against multiple low AV targets given how expensive getting a darklance on the field is.

I don't think dark eldar are in contention, the IG/Tau can do way more in the shooting phase. Against those armies all DE wants to do is disable enough to allow them to get into assault. Poisoned weapons are hardly great anti-infantry, they are less effective than boltguns against T3, and equal against T4.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

--Spam IG ML List--

Blah Blah Blah

Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

Blah Blah Blah

What?!?

The area of a circle is πr^2 the radius of that blast template is 1.5" so the area of one small template is 7.06 inches squared so thats only 367 square inches about 1/10 of the board. Still a lot I know, but your calculation has almost 1/2 the board covered with templates. You seemed to have used 3" as your radius in your calculation.

I did skim through this thread assuming someone would have pick you up on this but it appears to have slip through.

No offence indented by the blah's by the way FoxPhoenix, I just needed to cut your post in length for the quote whilst still illustrating that it had a lot of content.

(edited 5 times for piss poor spelling and trying to type πr^2 with the π and superscript (I gave up on the superscript))

Oops, by Joe you are right about that. For some reason I got my diameter and radius mixed up in my calculations. Still pretty impressive area coverage though, all and all.

Dracos wrote:The problem for anyone these days is not dealing with heavy vehicle spam... the only "top tier" build with high av is BA pred/razorspam and even that is only FA 13. Everything else spams AV 10-12 armour, which makes the lance spam not as powerful. The dark eldar codex tries to use darklances/blasters to fill all anti-av roles, but its not terrible effective against multiple low AV targets given how expensive getting a darklance on the field is.

I don't think dark eldar are in contention, the IG/Tau can do way more in the shooting phase. Against those armies all DE wants to do is disable enough to allow them to get into assault. Poisoned weapons are hardly great anti-infantry, they are less effective than boltguns against T3, and equal against T4.

Against the IG or the tau DE is capable of tabling them via shooting, there's no real need to engage in CC as the primary means of dealing their casualties.

Per point (not per gun, because that doesn't really matter) splinter rifles are superior to marines carrying boltguns against anything that isn't save 5+ standing in the open. Sisters are cheap enough to contend vs low save T3 models but they lack the first turn large blast spam and can't deal with return fire as well.

Tau actually cost considerably more per model for their shooting and only really gain the ability to kill landspeeders and rhinos for it - stuff that either isn't really threatening as a whole or can easily be dealt with by the rest of the armies' AT.

The razorwing missiles alone represent an impressive amount of firepower, and dark eldar warriors are very cheap for how well they shoot.

Now without devolving into rebukes, who is Stelek?

IG is running away because that many armies who can match their firepower's quality (Eldar, Dark Eldar, SM's, Tau), lack the quantity that the Guard has. If they have quantity (i.e. Orks, Nids,) they are poor shots and lead to more misses than what is effective. The Guard are right in the sweet spot of decent BS+Lots of shots.

Stelek is a self-appointed 40k genious who often employs unconventional tactics in his list construction.

He tends to be very polarizing in his belifes and doesn't take kindly to criticism of his ideas.

you either love him or hate him.

He, on occasion, will mock other high profile 40k players and criticise their tactics if they arn't similer to his. He has, when challanged by those he has slighted, often refused to put his money where his mouth is.

is he wrong? not as a rule, very few ideas and tactics can be "wrong" about 40k, but his main fault is that he is alienating and devisive.

nothing wrong with what he says, thats perfectly fine, but he certaintly can raise some hackles.

another character similer to him is Black Bow Fly.

Thanks Grey, appreciate it.

Maybe it's just me... But when I hear "shootiest", I don't limit that to vehicles and HWs.... Vital, yes, but "shooty" typically means lots and losta dakka. And that is just what The Hammer of the Emperor does best.

Based purely on shooting and being able to support each other I would go with either a mech BA list, or an all infantry BA list. It would look something like this.

HQ-
Librarian w/ combi-plasma, shield, blood lance 110 pts

Elts-
4 priest w/ combi-plasmas 240 pts

Trps-
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts
10 Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon 200 pts

Hvy-
10 Devastators w/ 4 heavy bolters 210 pts
10 Devastators w/ 4 missile launchers 210 pts
10 Devastators w/ 4 plasma cannons 230 pts


So that would be 8 squads firing a turn, 4 twelve inch FNP bubles, 1 psychic defense, good quality shooting with great survivability. It only has 17 heavy weapons, 5 plasma guns, 10 combi plasma. Also has something for every army. So BA get my vote.


P.S. The cost of 9 hydras is 675 pts