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Viper217 wrote:I was going to vote IG, but your poll made the mistake of asking the 'shootiest' army, and no army is more shootier then da orks! Who cares if you miss 2/3 of your shots, dakkadakkadakka!

Point taken! That made me laugh! I wish I could change my answer now!

Dracos wrote:As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

You didnt quite prove FoxPhoenix wrong. I can have everything you have, and more in a SW list (if you consider SW to be a variant).

HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher

Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 5x Long Fangs 4x Missile Launcher

I have everything that you have, plus 16 more ML in replacement of your 6 Lasc and 3 AC. Either that, or I copy and paste your list, and have about 90 points left (though the Long Fangs is the more efficient choice).

Blacksails wrote:Space Wolves and Tau can put out more shots than guard, but guard easily throws out the most templates of any kind. Executioners, Demolishers, Battlecannons, heavy flamers on Chimeras, all the artillery pieces, Hellhounds and their variants...hell, there's even armoured sentinels with plasma cannons if you really want.

How can they put out more shots than guard can with FRFSRF?

ChocolateGork wrote:How can they put out more shots than guard can with FRFSRF?

Oh, right, this is something I forgot about when comparing guard to orks.

Orks are full of dakka, but a single imperial guard troops choice can put down 330 lasgun shots per turn. For reference, that's 40 dead boyz from a single troops choice in a single turn.

To rate Tau, you have to see someone who knows the army, has a tooled in list and is a good player. I do not play Tau myself, but I watched a Tau player chew through horde orks and horde nids at a 1500 pt tourny. This question needs a points limit. Tau at 1500 points can be just nasty, but after that they do not scale well where IG do not run out of good places to use their points.

striderx wrote:I have everything that you have, plus 16 more ML in replacement of your 6 Lasc and 3 AC. Either that, or I copy and paste your list, and have about 90 points left (though the Long Fangs is the more efficient choice).

You also don't have a Conversion beamer.

The question wasn't if the vanilla SM can put in more heavies, but rather if they are comparable. If the only difference is trading 16ML shots for 6 LC, 6AC and 1 conversion beamer shots, I would say they certainly are comparable.

In that respect, I did show that it is faulty to say they are not comparable.

It has to be the imperial guard.

Massed las-guns supported by heavy weapons and high strength Leman Russ weapons must be good.

striderx wrote:

Dracos wrote:As requested, random spammy 2k Vanilla SM firepower list

HQ MotF Conversion beamer 120
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Combiflamer, Las/tl plas razorback 175
Troops Tactical x5 Las/tl plas razorback 165
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon x2 180
Fast Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120
Heavy Predator AC/las 120

1995

35 Heavy weapons (counting typhoon missiles as 2 weapons, I guess only like 30 if you count them as one)

edit: It took me about 1 minute to put this together.

You didnt quite prove FoxPhoenix wrong. I can have everything you have, and more in a SW list (if you consider SW to be a variant).

HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 2x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher

Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Missile Launcher
Heavy 5x Long Fangs 4x Missile Launcher

I have everything that you have, plus 16 more ML in replacement of your 6 Lasc and 3 AC. Either that, or I copy and paste your list, and have about 90 points left (though the Long Fangs is the more efficient choice).

isnt it restricted to 1 typhoon per squadron?

Anyway it's really up there between vanilla/wolves/ig I feel

Would it be a squadron with a single typhoon?

Necrons!!!! In the next codex release.... please?

Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

2000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML spam

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
4 Company Command Squad @ 50 pts w/ ML @+15
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)



Total Roster Cost: 1850 out of 2000


Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. I left enough points in the list you could easily swap many of those for ACs, LCs, mortars and what-have-you, or add in an ordnance battery, a master of ordnance, etc etc.

With 52 shots at 48", S8, AP 3, you are bound to do damage, even at BS 3. They still can glance AV 14, and that many glances are going to add up to some serious damage to even heavy vehicles. Can you imagine lists that utilize razorback spam? Dead. Their weak armor would shred under the barrage of missiles , especially if guard go first.

Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

In addition to the sheer amount of firepower you have if you go first, you still have massive amounts of bodies to soak up damage, give cover, etc to the ML squads. I would guess that you wouldn't loose over 1/3 of those bodies unless your opponent has a similar amount of pie-plate spam to send your way, allowing you to shoot at nearly full strength even if you shoot second in the first turn.

Anyway, so the masters of Spam appear to be the guard, as far as I can see. They have the cheap troops to stuff in the quantity, if not the quality.

interesting take on spam I like it

yea i dont have my sw codex on me but im sure its limited to 1 typhoon per squadron

I really have no words for that list foxPhoenix... pure win

Yeah... doing the math on those templates really made my head explode.

Consider that out of that possible 1469.5" that the templates could potentially cover, what if they hit only a quarter of that many models? Models on a 1" base have an area of 3.14" squared, approximately. If you hit only a few models under every template (call it 3-4 on average), you are still looking at 170-200 hits on infantry models out of those shots. Yowza!

On Ork Boyz: that equals around 75-100 dead, unless hard boyz, painboys etc.
On Imperial Guardsmen: That equals around 100-130 dead, unless carapace-equipped.

Mathhammer is fun to think about, but I doubt this is very realistic!

Poor Necrons.....

There not all that bad at shooting really... (not the best though....)

Dracos wrote:You also don't have a Conversion beamer.

The question wasn't if the vanilla SM can put in more heavies, but rather if they are comparable. If the only difference is trading 16ML shots for 6 LC, 6AC and 1 conversion beamer shots, I would say they certainly are comparable.

In that respect, I did show that it is faulty to say they are not comparable.

When I said I copy and paste your list and have 90 pts left, I meant the MOTF in as well (although SW don't have that). But the pt is if you want anything pure shooty, you are better off taking SW than SM vanilla because I can take everything cheaper than you do.

And if we scale the lists down to anything like 1750 or 1850, I ll certainly trump your list further.

Yeah you are really good at making illegal lists, way to go. Or did you miss the part where SW can only take 1 Typhoon per squadron? I forgot about that until someone else pointed it out.

Dracos wrote:Yeah you are really good at making illegal lists, way to go. Or did you miss the part where SW can only take 1 Typhoon per squadron? I forgot about that until someone else pointed it out.

1) Before you accuse someone of making illegal list, please use the search function and refer to a thread in YMTC about this single typhoon dispute.
2) Dropping 3 Landspeeder only gives me enough points to purchase 3 more razorbacks, which means 3 more lasc and 3 more plasma gun. And net me an extra 45 points (on top of the 90 I already have).

So it's either I trumped you at 2k points, or I trump you to a greater extend at 1750. Way to go.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

2000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML spam

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
4 Company Command Squad @ 50 pts w/ ML @+15
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)



Total Roster Cost: 1850 out of 2000


Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. I left enough points in the list you could easily swap many of those for ACs, LCs, mortars and what-have-you, or add in an ordnance battery, a master of ordnance, etc etc.

With 52 shots at 48", S8, AP 3, you are bound to do damage, even at BS 3. They still can glance AV 14, and that many glances are going to add up to some serious damage to even heavy vehicles. Can you imagine lists that utilize razorback spam? Dead. Their weak armor would shred under the barrage of missiles , especially if guard go first.

Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

In addition to the sheer amount of firepower you have if you go first, you still have massive amounts of bodies to soak up damage, give cover, etc to the ML squads. I would guess that you wouldn't loose over 1/3 of those bodies unless your opponent has a similar amount of pie-plate spam to send your way, allowing you to shoot at nearly full strength even if you shoot second in the first turn.

Anyway, so the masters of Spam appear to be the guard, as far as I can see. They have the cheap troops to stuff in the quantity, if not the quality.

I wouldn't want to play against that, their turn might take 3 hours!

Attention internet: MEGAPIE GUARD will be the new ultracompetitive Guard build, just you watch

How about as many mortar squads as you can fit in a guard army? Stick them behind a massive line of lasguns and no infantry is getting anywhere near you. Would need to add some kind of anti-tank support though.

No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting. That means they are not using up any points on h2h ability like marines are. Add to that the massive amount of ordnance, artillery and orders to improve shooting and they are clearly the best shooty army.

I must say that it can be fun when you charge with bayonets though.

striderx wrote:

Dracos wrote:Yeah you are really good at making illegal lists, way to go. Or did you miss the part where SW can only take 1 Typhoon per squadron? I forgot about that until someone else pointed it out.

1) Before you accuse someone of making illegal list, please use the search function and refer to a thread in YMTC about this single typhoon dispute.
2) Dropping 3 Landspeeder only gives me enough points to purchase 3 more razorbacks, which means 3 more lasc and 3 more plasma gun. And net me an extra 45 points (on top of the 90 I already have).

So it's either I trumped you at 2k points, or I trump you to a greater extend at 1750. Way to go.

You are trumping me? ....

Get a grip. The issue was if they are comparable. They bring similar amounts of firepower, making them comparable. This isn't about how big your epeen is.

odorofdeath wrote:Attention internet: MEGAPIE GUARD will be the new ultracompetitive Guard build, just you watch

Damn, you beat me to it!

Trickstick wrote:No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting.

Not true.

What's most woeful to me is that so many people think that the guard are best at shooting, simply because they're guard, who are ALWAYS best at shooting, end of.

It's just a stereotype, people, and a rather old one at that.

The reason nobody has tried a list like my ML spam:

You'll need nearly 20 HW squad boxes, 6 infantry squad boxes, and 4 command squad boxes to build it, at the least. I suppose that isn't that bad compared to, say, aircav, or heavy armor lists, but that is still $700 + 150 + 100 = $1000 dollars worth of guardsmen at MSRP. I'm sure if you cruised e-buy and other such internet auctioneers you could get a force like this for cheaper, but that is still a hefty whack to the pocketbook. Its easier to buy a couple of vet squads and stick them in chimeras.

For example, 4 vet squads, + meltaguns, + chimeras retails for just under 400 bucks. A lot cheaper, and your turn doesn't take 2 hours!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting.

Not true.

What's most woeful to me is that so many people think that the guard are best at shooting, simply because they're guard, who are ALWAYS best at shooting, end of.

It's just a stereotype, people, and a rather old one at that.

Mind summarizing the point made with the link? I can't sift through all those bat reps at the moment! (Nice job by the way!)

Ailaros makes a great point - though I think his success is more to what he brings to the table rather than his list.

FoxPheonix - that list is awesome!

Dracos wrote:You are trumping me? ....

Anytime.

Dracos wrote:Get a grip. The issue was if they are comparable. They bring similar amounts of firepower, making them comparable. This isn't about how big your epeen is.

My definition of comparable tells me that wasnt even comparable.
Unless you define the word differently, then explain yourself.

To bad that much Missile Launchers is really expensive. That list would be pretty sweet, especially if you could get Creed in.

Well, 45 lootas, 9 Kannons, and 9 Warbuggies is pretty good. You can use Wazzdakka to take Bikers as Troops. Dakkaguns are Str 5 and Twin Linked, so thats a huge amount of Dakka. Maybe not the shootiest list ever, but the shootiest Orks can do.

The best I can get is 18 rokkits, 45 Lootas (45-135 AC Shots) and 63 Dakkagun Shots.

But Nids are good too. 9 Hive Guard and 3 Tyrannofexen is pretty good.

Mike Noble wrote:To bad that much Missile Launchers is really expensive. That list would be pretty sweet, especially if you could get Creed in.

Well, 45 lootas, 9 Kannons, and 9 Warbuggies is pretty good. You can use Wazzdakka to take Bikers as Troops. Dakkaguns are Str 5 and Twin Linked, so thats a huge amount of Dakka. Maybe not the shootiest list ever, but the shootiest Orks can do.

The best I can get is 18 rokkits, 45 Lootas (45-135 AC Shots) and 63 Dakkagun Shots.

But Nids are good too. 9 Hive Guard and 3 Tyrannofexen is pretty good.

Orks can almost be the shootiest if you limit it to 1k points. But their shooting efficiency just reduces when you start to fill up the Lootas slots and Kannons slots.

Basically he does very well with a Foot guard list: several power blobs, Al'rahem, and a light dose of HWTs or artillery. Nice site btw Ailaros!