Best Shooty Army

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**Dracos**

striderx wrote:
Dracos wrote:You are trumping me? ....
Anytime.

Wow, getting a little personal on this, aren't you?

Here are 3 threads from YMDC about how SW can only take 1 Typhoon speeder per squadron.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292840.page#1541839

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317027.page#1930480

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330196.page#2162344

So yes, your list is illegal. Maybe your definition of "a" is different than mine [as in "a Land Speeder may be upgraded"], but to me (and anyone fluent in English) "a" means one.

striderx wrote:
Dracos wrote:Get a grip. The issue was if they are comparable. They bring similar amounts of firepower, making them comparable. This isn't about how big your epeen is.
My definition of comparable tells me that wasnt even comparable.
Unless you define the word differently, then explain yourself.

You are right, they are not comparable. My list was legal and the one you wrote is not. My apologies.

**Ailaros**

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Mind summarizing the point made with the link? I can't sift through all those bat reps at the moment! (Nice job by the way!)

Thanks!

So, my army revolves around getting as much into close combat as I possibly can. Power weapons, meltabombs, priests, and ogryn are all staple diet for my lists. As mentioned, there's usually some support sprinkled on in various forms, depending on what I need, but the core of the army is a massed bayonette charge. It's been going pretty well, and I even tied for first in a local tournament last saturday.

If you don't want to read them all, I'll direct you to this game, and this game, which show off the strengths of assault guard against two tough army types while said tournament even sees me beat off a slugga boyz green tide with little more than regular guardsmen.

Back to the OP, I think that more nuance may be required for all of this. As mentioned, guard can throw out an enormous number of templates, and it can also field a lot of special weapons and lasgun shots. This obviously makes them a pretty shooty army (which is why I voted for them, actually).

The guard are not, however, the universally best shooty army. Other armies are competitive, and can even beat guard in various classes of shooting (except for number of templates put down). What makes guard good is that while they have one unique type of great shooting, the things that they don't specialize in, they're still pretty good at. There isn't a lot that CAN'T be taken down by guard shooting, should the guard commander attempt to eschew close combat as much as possible.

No, the guard will never have as good of long-range anti-tank as Tau, but their anti-light infantry is better (due to quantity), as is their anti-transport, and anti-MEq. Likewise, guard commanders can't match loota spam as far as dakka per point, but the guard has meltaguns, lascannons, and heavy artillery, while the ork player is forced to bounce lolrokkits off of stuff.

Really, it's how well-rounded guard shooting is as a whole that makes it good, not the quality of any particular class of shooting.

**pchappel**

I have to agree with Ailaros on this... We play our Guard armies a bit differently, I tend more to the "We bring lots of heavy weapons and shoot things", but most of my lads are also kitted out with PW SGTs and the like for the inevitable HtH... I do think the IG can throw out the most firepower, though it does rely on squadrons, fragile weapons teams and can be countered...

**Stormrider**

Ailaros wrote:
FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Mind summarizing the point made with the link? I can't sift through all those bat reps at the moment! (Nice job by the way!)

Thanks!

So, my army revolves around getting as much into close combat as I possibly can. Power weapons, meltabombs, priests, and ogryn are all staple diet for my lists. As mentioned, there's usually some support sprinkled on in various forms, depending on what I need, but the core of the army is a massed bayonette charge. It's been going pretty well, and I even tied for first in a local tournament last saturday.

If you don't want to read them all, I'll direct you to this game, and this game, which show off the strengths of assault guard against two tough army types while said tournament even sees me beat off a slugga boyz green tide with little more than regular guardsmen.

Back to the OP, I think that more nuance may be required for all of this. As mentioned, guard can throw out an enormous number of templates, and it can also field a lot of special weapons and lasgun shots. This obviously makes them a pretty shooty army (which is why I voted for them, actually).

The guard are not, however, the universally best shooty army. Other armies are competitive, and can even beat guard in various classes of shooting (except for number of templates put down). What makes guard good is that while they have one unique type of great shooting, the things that they don't specialize in, they're still pretty good at. There isn't a lot that CAN'T be taken down by guard shooting, should the guard commander attempt to eschew close combat as much as possible.

No, the guard will never have as good of long-range anti-tank as Tau, but their anti-light infantry is better (due to quantity), as is their anti-transport, and anti-MEq. Likewise, guard commanders can't match loota spam as far as dakka per point, but the guard has meltaguns, lascannons, and heavy artillery, while the ork player is forced to bounce lolrokkits off of stuff.

Really, it's how well-rounded guard shooting is as a whole that makes it good, not the quality of any particular class of shooting.

Ha, lolrokkits

**odorofdeath**

lolrokkits and roflkopters, thats what Orks are all about

**Stormrider**

odorofdeath wrote:lolrokkits and roflkopters, thats what Orks are all about

And LOTS OF DAKKA!!!!!

**Mike Noble**

So

With Tau, Its quality, not quantity.

With Orks, its quantity, not quality.

With Guard, its a balance?

Sounds reasonable.

**FoxPhoenix135**

That's probably the best analogy yet, Mike.

**Mike Noble**

I know this isn't exactly on topic, but after seeing Ailaros's list on his blog, I made a list that is mainly CC with Guard.

Command Squad-Creed,Vox Caster
Lord Commisar-PW,Carapace Armor

6 Ogryns

Infantry Platoon:
PCS
5 Infantry Squads each w/ a Meltagun, PW, meltabomb
Priest w/ Eviscerator
Commisar w/PW

3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons

Infantry Platoon:
PCS
5 Infantry Squads each w/ a Meltagun, PW, meltabomb
Priest w/ Eviscerator
Commisar w/PW

3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons

Thats it I think. 2k points, but my costs may be off. Well, you have the two super blobs of Guardsmen that will wreck anything on the charge, Creed to let one outflank, and of course give them Furious Charge to be even better.

It also has tons of autocannons. 21 of them, which is still very nice firepower. 52 AC shots isn't as good as 52 Missiles, but don't forget the 5 Meltaguns in each platoon as well for anti tank. I think this list could be very potent as far as Foot Guard goes, and with mass mech being the trend, its fun to break the mold and still be able to win.

**odorofdeath**

That looks a powerful good list sir! Definitely against the grain their lul

**striderx**

Dracos wrote:
Wow, getting a little personal on this, aren't you?

You wanted to take my word out of context, so you deserved it. But either way you look at it, I can do that (I mean trump you).

Dracos wrote:Here are 3 threads from YMDC about how SW can only take 1 Typhoon speeder per squadron.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292840.page#1541839

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317027.page#1930480

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330196.page#2162344

The threads are contentious. Selectively choosing one side of the argument doesn't make you RIGHT.

And just in case you opponent happens to be in a good mood and decides to go along with your interpretation of the rules, he (as I have mentioned) could easily replace that 3 landspeeder with 3 razorbacks and net himself a 45 points (reiterating this because you seem to perform selective reading).

Dracos wrote:
You are right, they are not comparable. My list was legal and the one you wrote is not.

They are not comparable because of the amount of heavy weapons you are bringing to the table (oh, I m putting this clear in words to assist you just in case you find it hard to follow ).

Dracos wrote:My apologies.

I could accept that.

**odorofdeath**

Geez guys. Be cool, lets all be cool.

**Dracos**

Lol striderx, you are a riot. Why do you have to keep making this personal by saying that you "trump" me? This is not about you and I, its about the armies. At least try to pretend like you are being objective.

Those threads are not contentious at all. They are short because the wording is pretty clear, a speeder may upgrade to a typhoon. Not "any", but "a". A = one. Only 1 per squadron.

So dropping 3 speeders for 3 razorbacks gets you 3 more lascannons.

So then we have your list with 10 more missiles in exchange for 3 heavy bolters, 3 autocannons,3 lascannons and a conversion beamer. That sounds pretty comparable to me. Not identical, but comparable (meaning similar amounts of total firepower).

**striderx**

Dracos wrote:Lol striderx, you are a riot. Why do you have to keep making this personal by saying that you "trump" me? This is not about you and I, its about the armies. At least try to pretend like you are being objective.

You chose to interpret in a way that is consistent with your sense of inferiority. So, you deserved it. Not that I influenced it in any way.

Dracos wrote:Those threads are not contentious at all. They are short because the wording is pretty clear, a speeder may upgrade to a typhoon. Not "any", but "a". A = one. Only 1 per squadron.

Just because you claim it's not contentious doesnt mean it isnt. But good try.

Dracos wrote:So dropping 3 speeders for 3 razorbacks gets you 3 more lascannons.

And 3 Plasma, which anyway I look at it, is better than Heavy Bolter.

Dracos wrote:So then we have your list with 10 more missiles in exchange for 3 heavy bolters, 3 autocannons,3 lascannons and a conversion beamer. That sounds pretty comparable to me. Not identical, but comparable (meaning similar amounts of total firepower).

And since you insist, I can make it clear (with a bit of change to interpret the codex the way you want)

HQ Rune Priest (Living Lightning) - which I think is better than a conversion beamer
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc Las/tl plas razorback
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc
6 AC, 20 Lasc, 6 ML.

I don't know how is your 9 AC, 10 Las, 10 ML even comparable. Unless you stubbornly think 4 ML and 3 AC has the same attrition value of 10 Lasc.

**Manchu**

@all: Keep it polite please. Review Rule Number One via the link in my sig if necessary. Otherwise, get up from your computer and grab some fresh air.

**Dracos**

Humm Striderx, when I add up your list it comes out to 2065

HQ Rune Priest (Living Lightning) 100
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Elite Dakka dread 2x Twinlinked autocannons 125
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Troop 5x Grey Hunter Flamer, Las/tl plas razorback 150
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher 90
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher 90
Fast 1x Typhoon 2x Missile Launcher 90
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc Las/tl plas razorback 290
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc 215
Heavy 6x Long Fangs 5x Lasc 215

=
HQ 100
E:375
T:600
FA:270
HS 720
Total 2065

**striderx**

Feel free to ignore the Razorback in the Heavy support choice then. Which then gives me 10 pts to float around.
After this, tell me 3 AC + 4 ML has comparable attrition value to 9 Lasc (in terms of point cost alone, 1 Lasc is ABOUT double the cost of a ML). Then I ll go sleep.

Also, reduce our list to 1750 or 1500, and you ll see the gap increasing even wider. Nice try

**Dracos**

Okay then we are left with 9 LC +2 PG+ LL vs 4 ML+3 AC+2 HB+ Conversion beamer.

Remember this is just the difference, not counting the 6 TL AC and 4 LC/TL PG they have in common.

And you don't think that's even comparable? We will then have to agree to disagree.

**FoxPhoenix135**

You both are silly, because neither compares to the sheer massed firepower of the guard!

**Dracos**

Yep, I'm in total agreement! IG wins anyways, so really the SW v SM conversation is not very important. While SW does win out that battle, the margin that SW is better is not that large.

IG is better than both by a long shot.

I made a punny.

**Ed_Bodger**

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Allow my rebuttal to the SM spam lists out there:

2000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster - ML spam

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
4 Company Command Squad @ 50 pts w/ ML @+15
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (40#, 625 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 625 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (37#, 535 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 535 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)
3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Missile Launcher x3)

Total Roster Cost: 1850 out of 2000

Let's count how many MLs that is: 52 Missile launchers. I left enough points in the list you could easily swap many of those for ACs, LCs, mortars and what-have-you, or add in an ordnance battery, a master of ordnance, etc etc.

With 52 shots at 48", S8, AP 3, you are bound to do damage, even at BS 3. They still can glance AV 14, and that many glances are going to add up to some serious damage to even heavy vehicles. Can you imagine lists that utilize razorback spam? Dead. Their weak armor would shred under the barrage of missiles , especially if guard go first.

Alternatively, if you are facing a horde like other gunline IG or Orks, the MLs would then be spitting out 52 small blasts at S4 AP 5. Considering the small blast template has a diameter of 3", you could imagine the kind of coverage you would get: 28.26 inches squared times 52 to be exact, or 1469.52 inches squared assuming there are no overlaps.

In addition to the sheer amount of firepower you have if you go first, you still have massive amounts of bodies to soak up damage, give cover, etc to the ML squads. I would guess that you wouldn't loose over 1/3 of those bodies unless your opponent has a similar amount of pie-plate spam to send your way, allowing you to shoot at nearly full strength even if you shoot second in the first turn.

Anyway, so the masters of Spam appear to be the guard, as far as I can see. They have the cheap troops to stuff in the quantity, if not the quality.

Great list for the thread - wouldn't want to paint it though.

**odorofdeath**

Lul, my bud actually thinks this list is bad. Some people...

**Trickstick**

Ailaros wrote:
Trickstick wrote:No army can out shoot guard simply because that is all they are designed to do. Apart from one or two token assault specialists, such as ogryns, every unit deals damage from shooting.

Not true.

What's most woeful to me is that so many people think that the guard are best at shooting, simply because they're guard, who are ALWAYS best at shooting, end of.

It's just a stereotype, people, and a rather old one at that.

Yeah i completely forgot about mass charge Guard armies, my bad. I used to like this back when every trooper could take a laspistol and ccw. I tend to close within 12" and then mass rifle fire, supported by tanks and heavy weapon squads. I still think Guard have the potential to be the best ranged army, its just for me that range is less than 6".

**DAaddict**

I am in the minority but voted for Eldar.

-Can be CC oriented but all successful Eldar revolve around survival and firepower

-Volume of accurate fire due to farseer GUIDE.

Not saying they are better but I would put them in the mix with the big three already discussed.

**odorofdeath**

Eh I could see that. They are on the total extreme of "quality > quantity" spectrum, but their weapons are quite deadly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh incidentally, can a CCS take more than 1 Master of Ordnance? And if so, do you get 1 shot PER MoO? i.e., 2 shots for 2 MoO, 3 for 3, so on and so forth.

**Trickstick**

Nope, only 1 of each type of advisor allowed. Or 2 bodyguards.

**FoxPhoenix135**

Trickstick wrote:Nope, only 1 of each type of advisor allowed. AND/ Or 2 bodyguards.

Fixed that for you

**odorofdeath**

Darn no double Master of Ordinance shenanigans?

**FoxPhoenix135**

Only if you take 2 company command squads...

Before they FAQ'd it, you used to be able to take a Mortar as a heavy weapon in the squad, and fire it first to help "range in" the MoO's barrage, but they fixed it when it started getting abused.

Honestly while a bit unbalanced, I loved that you could use the mortar to "range in" the artillery. As a real-world mortar infantryman, we did this sort of thing quite often. We'd use a lower-power round such as a non-explosive to range in the coordinates for heavier weaponry.

**odorofdeath**

I didnt see anything in the FAQ about not being able to take >1 MoO. All it talks about regarding him is no longer being able to utilize the multiple barrage rules as you said... sigh. Lame. time to alter the list LOL.