Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Davicus wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Go ahead and insult my intelligence, as if it will give your claims any merit.

Instead of trying to act like the victim, why not try harder to make your points logical and more convincing.

Going by your logic, IG will be 1st, Tau 2nd (which everyone claims to be much lower than that), and Orks 3rd . Tell me this is correct

If you want to prove your point, you ve got to make sense.

FowPhoenix made perfect sense in what he was conveying.

he could break out the Mathhammer, but maybe he doesn't want to right now.

he said what is being said on other forums and Paraphrased the inventor of the Leafblower list to back up his claim.

He is also agreeing with what others have said previously(poll and posts)

you could go and see what was actually said on those other forums and check his credibility.




Leafblower lists are fairly easy to beat with the correct tactics and are horrible as far as being balanced. However, this Thread is about sheer firepower and FoxPhoenix was using it as an example of sheer Firepower, and he did mention that it wasn't a great list for being balanced, take all comers list.


Remember Rule #1

In my opinion the poll could be a little more specific... as in, IG are the best "overall" shooty army, but Tau are *better* at shooting (with the significantly fewer shots they have, bear with me). So asking "Which army is the shootiest" is a little too general. Since all it's done is spawn a flame war... :/

"Quantity has a Quality all it's own"

Yes, we've been over this... sigh.

Grey Templar wrote:FowPhoenix made perfect sense in what he was conveying.

Please tell me saying the poll result = the fact , makes perfect sense

Grey Templar wrote:he could break out the Mathhammer, but maybe he doesn't want to right now.

So it's either you do it, or it never happened. Don't make random remarks and pretend they are awesome.

Grey Templar wrote:He is also agreeing with what others have said previously(poll and posts)

you could go and see what was actually said on those other forums and check his credibility.

Your point is?

Grey Templar wrote:Leafblower lists are fairly easy to beat with the correct tactics and are horrible as far as being balanced. However, this Thread is about sheer firepower and FoxPhoenix was using it as an example of sheer Firepower, and he did mention that it wasn't a great list for being balanced, take all comers list.

And the bold says it all. Neither did I said it was junk, merely pointed out to him how many people failed at it in events. Only the successful examples were reported.

Btw, I m not saying IG isnt shooty. It's just the reasons some people use for backing it up is bad.

Ok I'll bite. How bout instead of berating everybody who disagrees with you, you get to the point of what you are trying to say. I'm not being snippy mind you, I am just asking you to outline your arguments so that we can reply to them nicely. Ok?

i was thinin tau but....... i dunno shoota boyz are pretty badass

Don't be so Snarky.


I am well aware that Poll =/= fact.

However, a Poll can be a good indicator of Fact.



This thread isn't about good lists, it's about what can throw out the best/most shooting. the most T'au can throw out is either,

9 Str10 AP1 TL shots and 18 Str8 Ap3 shots and 45 Suit weapons.

3 Str6 Large Blasts, 3 Str10 AP1 shots and 24 Str8 AP3 shots and 45 Suit weapons.

36 Str8 AP3 shots and 45 Suit weapons.


Guard can put out 9 Str9 AP3 large blasts and over a hundred heavy weapons in their Troop choices and don't get me started on the Elite and FA.

Guard just have so many possable options just in their Troop choices. and that's only counting Heavy weapons, add in the Flashlights and it's just an impossable amount of fire.

I would add up the possable Heavy weapons for Guard Troops choices, but i don't have the New codex.



T'au are good at shooting, but they need to make those shots count if they are versing guard. one bad shooting phase and a T'au gunline will get folded pretty easily.

Moderator notice: Keep it polite folks. This thread has been reported. We welcome healthy debate here at Dakka, but there's no call to be rude. Act like respectful adults and people will respect you more too.

May I just add that this poll is over 500 votes. I would say that is a pretty good sample size.

Additionally, the poll name is somewhat vague, but in the opening post I did say "integrated army system". As in how the entire army contributes to making it stronger in shooting. Orders are a good example of an integrated army system of support, or makerlights. Additionally, Lash of Submission being able to move units, so they can be shot at again. So while IG may be able to put out more shots, are they more EFFECTIVE than another army?

Just adding some food for thought.

Well, guard have Orders.

they can Twin-link weapons and force you to reroll your Cover saves. it only applies to Infantry, but Guard can get ALOT of Heavy weapons in their Infantry.

Orders are nice but I don't think they have that much effect on the game to be considered true-blue support. Markerlights dont require any test other than hitting and can effect the game in numerous ways. Orders really on Leadership tests to do anything, and while they can certainly help, I don't think they are thought of more than as "extra" by most IG players. Just my opinion though

Speaking as someone's who's fought a lot of IG and quite a lot of Tau as well, Orders are amazing. Marker lights are good, but cost you points and have to hit. Orders just make your guys better, with small chance of failure.

I will defer to you more experienced guys' judgement, as I have only played 1 game with my guard. I guess I am biased since I read a lot of Ailaros' batreps and he always fails his orders .

I think part of it may also be that I've played against infantry-heavy IG a bunch, who tend to get a lot of mileage out of orders, and keep their stuff closely supported enough to usually be taking those orders on Ld9. I think some Mech IG players do get less mileage out of them.

Yup, thats exactly what I was thinking. They are good, but they definitely are not necessary like Markerlights; Mech IG do quite well without them I believe

IG is amazing with its heavy weapon choices through sheer quanity. IG using orders now becomes amazing due to quanity with quality. A few examples.

Vendetta/Valkyrie
Veteran squad 3x Meltagun
Vendetta/Valkyrie
CCS 4x Meltagun
Outflank/Turboboost and drop them off, on a LD 9(potentially vox for reroll) you can twinlink 7 melta guns. Plus you have 6 twin-linked las-cannons or 4 large blast lasguns.

Al'Raheim Platoon
40 Man combined squad
SWS 3x Melta
SWS 3x Plasma

Al'Raheim outflanks and has 2 orders again on a LD 9 you can have 120 lasguns shots and twin-linked melta. You could also twin-link the melta guns and then fleet the 40 man blob into assault range using orders.

CCS
IG Platoon
PCS
Combined Squad
HWS 3x Lascannon
HWS 3x Autocannon
HWS 3x ML

Depending on what your shooting at you can twin-link, force successful cover saves to be rerolled, give an enhanced go-to-ground coversaves where there are none to your infantry squad, or order a gone to ground squad to get up and shoot/assault as normal. IG has a vehicle for every role in the game and they are all great but the back-bone of IG is troops and orders. My perspective comes from someone who runs a Blob army and a Mech IG army.

I Really don't know how no one is even considering Blood Angels with their surviability, counter charge for anything that gets to close, and having the cheapest devastators off all the marines. As for the IG the orders make them alot better.

Long fangs are as cheap.

And we are talking only about shooting not the shooting units close combat potential otherwise i think the space wolf would win.

Zonder wrote:Vendetta/Valkyrie
Veteran squad 3x Meltagun
Vendetta/Valkyrie
CCS 4x Meltagun
Outflank/Turboboost and drop them off, on a LD 9(potentially vox for reroll) you can twinlink 7 melta guns. Plus you have 6 twin-linked las-cannons or 4 large blast lasguns.

Why would you ever need 7 TL melta gun shots? If you are within melta range, you would never need that many shots for a single vehicle.

PraetorDave wrote:

Zonder wrote:Vendetta/Valkyrie
Veteran squad 3x Meltagun
Vendetta/Valkyrie
CCS 4x Meltagun
Outflank/Turboboost and drop them off, on a LD 9(potentially vox for reroll) you can twinlink 7 melta guns. Plus you have 6 twin-linked las-cannons or 4 large blast lasguns.

Why would you ever need 7 TL melta gun shots? If you are within melta range, you would never need that many shots for a single vehicle.

That is a group of 4 and a group of 3, so you can aim at 2 targets.

odorofdeath wrote:Orders are nice but I don't think they have that much effect on the game to be considered true-blue support. Markerlights dont require any test other than hitting and can effect the game in numerous ways. Orders really on Leadership tests to do anything, and while they can certainly help, I don't think they are thought of more than as "extra" by most IG players. Just my opinion though

all tau markerlights hit on 4+ that would = 50%
IG sergeant have Ld 8 so Orders will work 23 out 36 = 63.89%

Markerlights give +1 to hit or -1 to cover sv = +/- 12.5 %
Orders give 2x las fire re-roll to cover sv = + 100% to las fire or - 25% to cover sv


looks like IG win hands down

ChocolateGork wrote:

poontangler wrote:Hold on.

Tau Fire warriors(With the exception of the Honor Guard) WILL never have a bs of four. A BS of four denotes super human precision and skill, a BS of 3 is the skills of a well trained soldier.


But I agree with the statement that the IG blend Quality and Quantity. I am also not gonna pretend they suck, because the IG do not. But I wont lie to my self and pretend that I have never faced a leaf blower and held my own. I Have faced almost every army GW has(except Dark Eldar) with my tau, I have gotten whooped, and have crushed them.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

So gretchin are well trained soldiers?

Grots are like gaunts, they were bred for war and bs 3 is in their genes. Grots were also build with genetic flaws such as being small, weak, and cowardly but that was very intentional for a good reason.

Tau start to die of old age in their 40's iirc. They have no natural aptitude for war and no genetic advantages. Their short lifespan means unlike long lived races like eldar or space marines they have not had decades to build the skill needed for a bs4. The only ig to have a bs 4 is vets, and they have years of experience to the point most tau would be to old to funtion on a battle field when in their late 30s/early 40s.

true, but the advantages of meching up usually mean orders arent' used as much by IG then markerlights are used by tau. Why expose your squishy men for a conditional benefit when you can just hide them in a cozy box and still fire out, albeit with less firepower.

I guess my views on orders prove my n00b-ishness eh? I will be playing against my buddy's space cvampires soon so, with a Creed list. If he can't orders work for me, than no one can.

I have faced Meched up guard and orders are still used quite alot.

mostly by Heavy weapon squads that arn't in transports, but those are the guys who benifit the most.

True, I hadnt even considered those guys...................................

well... time to back out of this thread and preserve whatever dignity/respect I have left...

*quietly backs away*

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Orders are nice but I don't think they have that much effect on the game to be considered true-blue support. Markerlights dont require any test other than hitting and can effect the game in numerous ways. Orders really on Leadership tests to do anything, and while they can certainly help, I don't think they are thought of more than as "extra" by most IG players. Just my opinion though

all tau markerlights hit on 4+ that would = 50%
IG sergeant have Ld 8 so Orders will work 23 out 36 = 63.89%

Markerlights give +1 to hit or -1 to cover sv = +/- 12.5 %
Orders give 2x las fire re-roll to cover sv = + 100% to las fire or - 25% to cover sv


looks like IG win hands down

I'm not sure Orders and Markerlights can be compared directly like that. If you have a couple units of pathfinders, they can each put up markerlight hits, and IIRC you can stack it up. For instance, you can do more than just -1 to cover save (-3 by using 3 markerlight tokens) and add BS by using 1. So for 4 markerlight tokens you can do -3 cover save (which eliminates for most) and +1 bs.

Markerlights can be stacked up to devastating effect, so while 1 markerlight is certainly less powerful than an order, the potential to stack is much more devastating.

I don't think "IG win hands down" is a good way to describe the comparison.

edit: As I said early on, I think Tau are better than many people give them credit for. They are just a little too expensive compared to IG, but are a close second when it comes to damage in the shooting phase.

You can also force a pinning test with Tau Marker lights. Example. Two squads of Tau Pathfinders(Full squads, eight troops in each, and this is a hypothetical scenario) fire on to a squad with a leader ship of ten. Five marker lights from each squad hit, then you hit that squad with a pinning weapon from a different troop, you can use those ten Marker Light counters to actually force them to go to ground. They would get no chance to pass a pinning test. (I looked that up in the most frequently asked questions on Games Workshop's gaming articles)

Honestly, The IG are more blasty then shooty, which I consider two distinct differences.

I quote my friend remarking on this topic as I told him about it.

"Leave shooting to the Tau, but the big blast is all IG."

Guard. If theres one army that no one (including tau) don't want a drawn out gunfight with, its guard. They have heavy weapons dotted throughout nearly every infantry choice and the tanks are commonly known to be some of the best in the game. Now we all know that Guard isn't very accurate but they make up for it by far with firepower. The manticore for example. It isn't the most accurate of weapons but with an average of two pie plates a turn, by god you're gonna' hit something.

Tau are the better skilled marksman but i've seen many Tau players be grinded down in a battle of attrition against the imperial war machine.

Having said that there are some armies which can provide quite a bit of dakka. I've known the thousand sons with the slow and purposeful rule and lots of heavy weapons put out some pretty nasty firepower. The point I want to make however is no pure shooting army will ever win all but the newest of players. Regardless of how much firepower you bring, eventually those 'nids or standard marines will arrive to meet you in CC (you have taken out the specialist assault troops first right?) The best shooting army is one that can continue to put out tremendous ammounts of firepower while also containing (thats the key to holding a gunline - containment) the various raids and assualt that will eventually reach your lines.

Deceiver wrote:
Tau are the better skilled marksman...

I don't see how, even Tau veterans can't attain a BS of 4 without wargear, whereas IG veterans come with BS/WS4 by default