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Being from norway I used to think the Space Wolves were pretty cool (SNL Miley Cyrus show anyone? ), probably just because they are kinda viking like. But now that I'm currently halfway through the novel "The Thousand Sons" from the Horus Heresy series, I've started finding the Space Wolves really bloody annoying. Almost to the point where I hope they'll all be butchered in the most gruesome way possible, against all reason, of course, since I know they won't be. Before reading this novel, I was thinking about making either a Space Wolves army or a pre-heresy World Eater army, but just a couple of chapters into "The Thousand Sons" I completely discarded the Space Wolves as an option.

Why?

There are many similarities between the way the Space Wolves and the World Eaters make war, but there are some subtle differences. Where the World Eaters will wreak as much or probably more havoc on the enemy, their "excuse" is that their bloodlust makes them incapable of stopping until there's nothing left of the enemy to destroy. Which is fine within the context of the WH40K universe. But the Space Wolves are subtly different in that the reason they completely annihilate the enemy, is that they've made their mind up to do it before even setting foot on the battlefield, even in the light of "new information". Which is quite frankly stupid and stubborn. Incredibly so. And in my mind, stubbornness and stupidity is never fine, no matter which universe you're from. I got so annoyed by Leman Russ and his stupid, brainless lapdogs that I just had to put the book down and make this post..

Are you as annoyed by stubborn, pigheaded stupidity as I am? Would you drop an army as a choice just based on "official fluff"?

That sort of attitude was one of the reasons I chose Blood Angels instead of Space Wolves.

*phew* Oh good, I thought I was the only one to whom this stuff mattered.

That was the point of the Wolves...
They were (supposedly) created to be the final measure of authority against another legion, they are the executioners. Ruthlessness is their main trait.
Add in the fact that "The Thousand Sons" is written from the perspective of the Thousand Sons kind of gives only half the story... though after reading Prospero Burns they only just make up the lost ground.

Well, honestly, don't let a BL reading influence your army orientations that much. I read both "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns", and I think I understand what you feel. When I was reading the first book, I thought the SW were just a bunch of idiotic barbarians that had nothing to do in the IoM and only deserved annihilation. But when I read Propero Burns, I started thinking that the wolves of fenris were bloody awesome and that the TS were some treacherous villains!

So don't bother that much on BL publications, because they portray the opinions and the visions of their authors on the game, whereas you should make up your own opinion on W40K factions according to their style, their appearance, their theme, etc.

However, I kinda agree that the SW can be described as slightly stubborn and sometimes even stupid.

purplefood wrote:That was the point of the Wolves...
They were (supposedly) created to be the final measure of authority against another legion, they are the executioners. Ruthlessness is their main trait.

I'm not sure this makes chronological sense, unless the Emperor knew Horus would turn traitor. And if he did, the Emperor isn't as smart as he's made out to be.

Also, the World Eaters are ruthless. Sticking to opinions, even in the face of changing events, just because you've made your mind up, is just incredibly stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laodamia wrote:Well, honestly, don't let a BL reading influence your army orientations that much. I read both "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns", and I think I understand what you feel. When I was reading the first book, I thought the SW were just a bunch of idiotic barbarians that had nothing to do in the IoM and only deserved annihilation. But when I read Propero Burns, I started thinking that the wolves of fenris were bloody awesome and that the TS were some treacherous villains!

So don't bother that much on BL publications, because they portray the opinions and the visions of their authors on the game, whereas you should make up your own opinion on W40K factions according to their style, their appearance, their theme, etc.

That's exactly what this is about though. Their war-making style reflects an army's philosophy, and to me, that's what counts. If I shouldn't decide that by the contents in the BL novels, there's nothing else to go on.

In the end, I decided on the World Eaters (much because of this), but I found that painting the white on the pre-heresy scheme was way too time consuming, so since I would play them with the Chaos Marine Codex anyway, I went ahead and made my own take on their post-heresy paint scheme.

SgtSixkilla wrote:

purplefood wrote:That was the point of the Wolves...
They were (supposedly) created to be the final measure of authority against another legion, they are the executioners. Ruthlessness is their main trait.

I'm not sure this makes chronological sense, unless the Emperor knew Horus would turn traitor. And if he did, the Emperor isn't as smart as he's made out to be.

Also, the World Eaters are ruthless. Sticking to opinions, even in the face of changing events, just because you've made your mind up, is just incredibly stupid.

The World Easters are blood crazed they keep going purely to kill. The Wolves hit hard and with everything they have but they keep their sensibilities whilst they do so.
And the Emperor made them just in case, any of the legions could have betrayed him so he had the Wolves as a last resort. I don't think even he expected Horus to betray him but i do think he had a healthy dose of paranoia about him.

wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned

rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned

Not sure what you said there...

purplefood wrote:
The World Easters are blood crazed they keep going purely to kill. The Wolves hit hard and with everything they have but they keep their sensibilities whilst they do so.

Yeah, that's the "subtle" difference I was talking about. The difference which make the Wolves so incredibly stupid.

purplefood wrote:And the Emperor made them just in case, any of the legions could have betrayed him so he had the Wolves as a last resort. I don't think even he expected Horus to betray him but i do think he had a healthy dose of paranoia about him.

That's probably sensible, I just haven't read the specific novels that state this. Doesn't make them any less stupidly stubborn though.

SgtSixkilla wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The World Easters are blood crazed they keep going purely to kill. The Wolves hit hard and with everything they have but they keep their sensibilities whilst they do so.

Yeah, that's the "subtle" difference I was talking about. The difference which make the Wolves so incredibly stupid.

purplefood wrote:And the Emperor made them just in case, any of the legions could have betrayed him so he had the Wolves as a last resort. I don't think even he expected Horus to betray him but i do think he had a healthy dose of paranoia about him.

That's probably sensible, I just haven't read the specific novels that state this. Doesn't make them any less stupidly stubborn though.

That is one of their flaws... they tend to stick by those whom they believe are right and they do so to the very end or until they have been proved completly and utterly wrong.

rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned

Thats the spirit! keep up that attitude and the Space Wolves will have sold their souls to Khorne by the end of the next Millennium! There wasn't ever much difference between the Space Wolves and the World Eaters after all. Don't worry, in the eyes of Khorne the Wolfen is a blessing. Besides Space Puppies love killing don't they, its only natural...

In fact the fact that the Space Wolves *keep* their sensibilities makes them more prone to corruption from Khorne then the World Eaters ever were. The World Eaters lose control... the Space Wolves affirmatively choose to slaughter. I chalk it up to luck that the wolves didn't go traitor.


Also Russ totally lost that fight with Lion El'Jonson.

Didn't they have a bunch of duels over the years and eventually become friends?
One of the reasons Russ disappeared was to try and find the Lion apparently.

akaean wrote:

rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned

Thats the spirit! keep up that attitude and the Space Wolves will have sold their souls to Khorne by the end of the next Millennium! There wasn't ever much difference between the Space Wolves and the World Eaters after all. Don't worry, in the eyes of Khorne the Wolfen is a blessing. Besides Space Puppies love killing don't they, its only natural...

In fact the fact that the Space Wolves *keep* their sensibilities makes them more prone to corruption from Khorne then the World Eaters ever were. The World Eaters lose control... the Space Wolves affirmatively choose to slaughter. I chalk it up to luck that the wolves didn't go traitor.


Also Russ totally lost that fight with Lion El'Jonson.

PWND, as they say.

rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that I play or even like the Thousand Sons. Also, was that English? You know there's something called punctuation, right?

SgtSixkilla wrote:

PWND, as they say.

rovian wrote:wolves are the bomb traitor you just made cause we came to your planet killed all you people mortally wounded your loser primarch and cut you down we are going to finish the job besides the Sons are disliked them and the loser arhiman is trying to get in the black library but the eldar kicked his butt out you just got owned

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that I play or even like the Thousand Sons. Also, was that English? You know there's something called punctuation, right?

No way man Wolves killed all the punctuation

LOL. I can believe that. Punctuation is probably warp spawn anyway.

Heretic punctuation...

purplefood wrote:Heretic punctuation...

Suffer not the punctuation to live

Back on topic, I understand why people say that the wolves are a bit stubborn, and that they stick to their goal until the end. I guess it was made intentionally by GW. When I think about it, this character trait sounds bestial, like the reasoning of a dog or a wolf that will track its prey until the end. It kind of reinforces the image of the SW as domesticated animals.

Hehe. Saying the Space Wolves are "a bit stubborn" is like saying a tidal wave is a bit inconvenient. But I get what you're saying. Still don't make them any more appealing. And even a dog or a wolf will give up when the situation changes "beyond the initial parameters".

Tbh I never really understood WHY space wolves weren't chaos. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get their own dex (thats a different debate) but rather why their different dex wasn't chaos instead of imperial.

They were inspired by VIKINGS in space. Vikings weren't exactly a group of people known for not raiding, pillaging, raping, and general ruthlessness.

The entire Space Wolf codex would be much more compelling if they actually acted like space vikings, a band of renegades operating in the "north" of the galaxy, launching devastating raids against imperial worlds.

That is what Vikings do. They weren't "Defenders of the Peace" they were the entire reason peasants cowered to the nobles for protection, great warriors praying on the weak is what vikings were.

Honestly, Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs are more akin to Space Vikings then the Space Wolves ever were or will be. I'm glad he took the Wolf of Fenris from those hypocrites.

Hear Hear!

(Though in reality, Going on Viking wasn't that usual back in the day. More often, norsemen went on trading trips.)

Don't write them off yet. A Thousand Sons is told from the perspective of the Thousand Sons, so there's a little bit if bias. Read Prospero Burns after, and you'll get enlightened a little bit. There's a grim side to the creation of the Wolves, but I won't say anything else. People should really watch what they say to someone who hasn't read further than a few pages in A Thousand Sons! I thought the Wolves were morons after reading A Thousand Sons also, but then I read Prospero Burns.

I'll stop bad-mouthing the void puppies until I've read Prospero Burns, then. But their actions after sacking the Avenians does speak volumes.

It does, but there's reasons for it.

In Prospero Burns, which I still have mixed feelings for it further elaborates on how the Wolves truly are, specifically Russ himself.

At one point Fulgrim and Constantin Valdor are speaking with Russ and comment on how he is still "Playing the Barbarian King". Also the Wolves themselves show that they are much more than they let on and play the roles that are expected of them.

The wolves arent idiots in even the slightest of senses. If theyd halted when the "new information" came to light the TH would have killed them. 5heyre not chaos because the wolf soul cannot turn because that would be a for m of surrender and the wolf soul knows no surrender.

Contrary to popular belief the emperor sent the wolves to prospero, horus simply tricked Russ into being overly agressive and if being tricked by Horus makes you an idot then everyone is.

The simple fact is Magnus deserved everything he got for his arrogance and going against the emperors will, the SW are the perfect weapon, unrelenting unstoppable and most importantly unquestioning. If Magnus had been so obedient and pure of purpose he wouldnt have got his arse whooped.

The SW are arguably the most successful chapter of them all post heresy and they are NOT space vikings, dont let looks fool you, the practices of fenrisians resemble spartans more than anything else given their way of life.

Bad mouthing them for being as they were intended to be doesnt make sense.

The emperor never ordered astartes to preserve knowledge or get their psychic freak on, he ordered them to conquer and kill and the space wolves are VERY good at this.

If I had known that SW's were Spartans I wouldn't have chosen them!

Dammit man, I am having a hard time of it as it is trying to get some kip and now I have the image of Logan and Lucas humping away at each other like jackhammers indelibly etched in my head!

LOL add in the pelt of the doppelgangrel and we got ourselves a gang bang

the rout wrote:The wolves arent idiots in even the slightest of senses. If theyd halted when the "new information" came to light the TH would have killed them.

I don't know who "TH" is, but if you're referring to the situation I was talking about around midway through A Thousand Sons, then (as it's described there) the SW attacks the Thousand Sons because the Thousand Sons are trying to prevent valuable knowledge from being destroyed.

the rout wrote:5heyre not chaos because the wolf soul cannot turn because that would be a for m of surrender and the wolf soul knows no surrender.

Nobody is beyond corruption.

the rout wrote:
Contrary to popular belief the emperor sent the wolves to prospero, horus simply tricked Russ into being overly agressive and if being tricked by Horus makes you an idot then everyone is.

I never said they were idiots. I said they were stupid. Big difference.

the rout wrote:
The simple fact is Magnus deserved everything he got for his arrogance and going against the emperors will, the SW are the perfect weapon, unrelenting unstoppable and most importantly unquestioning. If Magnus had been so obedient and pure of purpose he wouldnt have got his arse whooped.

Being unquestioning is the same as being stupid. Look it up.

www.dictionary.com wrote:
ques·tion·ing   
[kwes-chuh-ning]
–adjective
1.
indicating or implying a question: a questioning tone in her voice.
2.
characterized by or indicating intellectual curiosity; inquiring: an alert and questioning mind.

If "being questioning" is indicative of intellect, then "being unquestioning" is indicative of the lack of intellect.

the rout wrote:
The SW are arguably the most successful chapter of them all post heresy and they are NOT space vikings, dont let looks fool you, the practices of fenrisians resemble spartans more than anything else given their way of life.

Everything about the SW points to them being inspired by vikings. Runes, runepriests, fenris, bearded maniacs driven by honor and bloodlust. In fact, there's very little besides their technology that DOESN'T point to vikings. In fact, there's NOTHING that indicates that they're Spartans. It's the Sons of Guilliman, the Ultramarines who are inspired by the Spartans.

the rout wrote:
Bad mouthing them for being as they were intended to be doesnt make sense.

It does, if "being as they were intended" is a stupid thing to be. Which everything indicates that they are. I get a feeling you are a blindly "loyal" Space Wolf player.

the rout wrote:
The emperor never ordered astartes to preserve knowledge or get their psychic freak on, he ordered them to conquer and kill and the space wolves are VERY good at this.

No. The emperor ordered the Astartes to bring the galaxy to compliance. That doesn't mean killing everything in their way. In fact, it doesn't necessarily involve killing at all.

purplefood wrote:Didn't they have a bunch of duels over the years and eventually become friends?
One of the reasons Russ disappeared was to try and find the Lion apparently.

I don't know about finding the Lion, but they did, as reads in 'Thousand Sons' become 'oath-sworn brothers in arms', which would imply they got past the several brawls they've had.....the Lion knocked the Wolf King out though . Their rivalry is certainly nothing to inspire the tensions between the Wolves and the Dark Angels, but something distorted over time.

---

The Space Wolves are intended to be, and in most ways are, Vikings. The tribes they come from on Fenris are very much like the Vikings, where the bloodshed and raiding is far more to the fore. The Ultramarines are the ones inspired by Greco-Roman society and the Spartans.

The Wolves may not be the barbarians that they're image makes people believe, and be content to allow that stereotype so people miss the intelligence and cunning they may infact possess, but they remain inspired by the Norse.

---

OP: I highly recommend reading 'Prospero Burns' before you make any major decisions, it shines a far more complimentary light on the Wolves, but I personally would and have dropped an army on the basis of the fluff. If you can't look at your army and think that they look awesome, and you enjoy any story your characters may have, you'll find enthusiasm for them lacking.

I however didn't mind the Space Wolves from 'Thousand Sons'. Doggedly resolute (Ah, bad puns ) in their beliefs perhaps, and rather savage in the way they make war, but there's a certain appeal to that savagery to me. The fortitude and energy they show across the entirety of the book, consistantly being likened to an elemental force of nature is also quite appealing. They're the trained war dog, the hunter and executioner, that you give an order and let loose to fulfill that order and stop over anything in their way.