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pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.

then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium

Alphacerberus wrote:

pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.

then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium

Actually i think he is just pissed at them 'cos they ruined his home and forced him to betray the Emperor to save themselves... oddly enough i don't think they realised that Horus had tricked them into attacking them and i don't think the Wolves have realised that either.

purplefood wrote:

Alphacerberus wrote:

pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.

then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium

Actually i think he is just pissed at them 'cos they ruined his home and forced him to betray the Emperor to save themselves... oddly enough i don't think they realised that Horus had tricked them into attacking them and i don't think the Wolves have realised that either.

very true and even behind horus there was tzeentch which makes it even MORE complex xD

Alphacerberus wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Alphacerberus wrote:

pretre wrote:In the Space Wolf series of books, Magnus is central to several attempts to destroy the Space Wolves.

then i bow to superior knowledge and lack of reading the space wolves omnibus im just assumign magnus is now mad and trying to get russ back for not seeing he was trying to save the imperium

Actually i think he is just pissed at them 'cos they ruined his home and forced him to betray the Emperor to save themselves... oddly enough i don't think they realised that Horus had tricked them into attacking them and i don't think the Wolves have realised that either.

very true and even behind horus there was tzeentch which makes it even MORE complex xD

#
Ironically Magnus then goes to Tzeentch... i wonder if he knows the truth?

I think the 'Horus tricked russ' thing is a red herring or revisionist history (in the fluff) at this point.

Magnus broke the rules pretty severely and destroyed the Big E's plan. He also consorted with Chaos.

The Big E sent Leman Russ to take care of it. The Big E knows exactly who and what Russ and the Wolves are. He knew what would happen.

Horus didn't have to say a darn thing for the outcome to be the way it was.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:Ironically Magnus then goes to Tzeentch... i wonder if he knows the truth?

Magnus goes BACK to Tzeentch. Who do you think cured the curse of flesh from his legion? He knew that he would have to pay the piper eventually.

pretre wrote:I think the 'Horus tricked russ' thing is a red herring or revisionist history (in the fluff) at this point.

Magnus broke the rules pretty severely and destroyed the Big E's plan. He also consorted with Chaos.

The Big E sent Leman Russ to take care of it. The Big E knows exactly who and what Russ and the Wolves are. He knew what would happen.

Horus didn't have to say a darn thing for the outcome to be the way it was.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:Ironically Magnus then goes to Tzeentch... i wonder if he knows the truth?

Magnus goes BACK to Tzeentch. Who do you think cured the curse of flesh from his legion? He knew that he would have to pay the piper eventually.

i wouldn't be suprised if tzeentch caused it during the great primarch escape xD in a way to controll the legion

pretre wrote:I think the 'Horus tricked russ' thing is a red herring or revisionist history (in the fluff) at this point.

Magnus broke the rules pretty severely and destroyed the Big E's plan. He also consorted with Chaos.

The Big E sent Leman Russ to take care of it. The Big E knows exactly who and what Russ and the Wolves are. He knew what would happen.

Horus didn't have to say a darn thing for the outcome to be the way it was.

He was the Emperor's second hand man and in command of all and every military force in the Imperium, he kinda did have a say especially if the order was routed through him to the Wolves. The Emperor probably thought Magnus would surrender but they didn't and the Wolves attacked the forcing them to defend themselves.

But Horus didn't pick who went. The Emperor did.

Horus could have told Russ to pick daisies and give them to Magnus and it wouldn't have gone down like that. Because he is Leman Russ and that's not how he rolls.

The Emperor picked Leman to sanction Magnus. Do you really think he doesn't know how Leman works?

Simo429 wrote:This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.

Yes, it is real and strange... real strange indeed.

Personally, I think your use of this pseudo "double-speak" is exactly what the chaos powers would do to make us think the books had no bearing on what we think is real. You say you think the thread is strange, but actually you're really trying to tell us what we are talking about is really real.



...say no more.

pretre wrote:But Horus didn't pick who went. The Emperor did.

Horus could have told Russ to pick daisies and give them to Magnus and it wouldn't have gone down like that. Because he is Leman Russ and that's not how he rolls.

The Emperor picked Leman to sanction Magnus. Do you really think he doesn't know how Leman works?

Leman Russ would have done what the Emperor told him to do. If he had told Leman Russ to reinforce Prospero and defend it to the death he would have done so.
Horus didn't pick who went but he guessed who would have gone since the SW were designed as the excecutioners, and he messed with the orders to suit his needs.

I think it is a bit more clear than that, but that's up to you.

I consider that pretty clear as it is...
Considering most of Tzeetch's plans this one is like a picture drawn by a 12 year old in comparison to some of his other works.

Another point as to why the Big E knew what was going down, he sent Constantin Valdor, The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with Russ. Horus couldn't have done that, he doesn't have command over Valdor and Russ wouldn't need them unless it was a full sanction. Valdor also would have known if this was a 'Hot' sanction or not before he left Terra.

Why would the Emperor send the a full battle-force of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to go retrieve Magnus unless he knew that Russ would need them?

pretre wrote:Another point as to why the Big E knew what was going down, he sent Constantin Valdor, The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with Russ. Horus couldn't have done that, he doesn't have command over Valdor and Russ wouldn't need them unless it was a full sanction. Valdor also would have known if this was a 'Hot' sanction or not before he left Terra.

Why would the Emperor send the a full battle-force of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to go retrieve Magnus unless he knew that Russ would need them?

Maybe he thought Russ would need
1)A show of force beyond the legions
2)A mark of legitimacy to show he was an agent of the Empror and not one of Horus (Magnus knew Horus was going traitor so he may have attacked Russ instead of surrendering)
3)Something to show the Empror really was displeased
We don't know how or when Horus messed with the orders, maybe he relayed some faked ones as soon as Russ dropped into real space over Prospero.

Hard to say what was going on. So many good points here.

I read "The First Heretic" and the Emperor speaks to Lorgar and the Word Bearers in a manner which gives me the impression that had he wanted, he could have 'sanctioned' Magnus to death from light years away.
Because the Emperor was 'busy', he sent what he felt was necessary to equal or surpass what power he percieved to be present at the intended target.

Being the Emperor, how could he NOT know how Russ would handle things? Perhaps he thought Russ might be reigned in by the presence of the Sisters and Custodes?

Not-to-mention the Emperor may have thought it imprudent to handle this last event personally and left it to others. Beratting a Primarch was one thing, eliminating one is another.

Personally, I think the Emperor was aware of everything. The presence of the Sisters and Custodes (other than being a psychic 'equalizer') was simply the Emperor putting his stamp on things. Which I think is the sole purpose for the Custodes anyway.

I don't think Russ' primary reaction to meeting another primarch is "attack" Russ does what Russ is told by the Emperor. If the Emperor says to bring Magnus in that's what he does, if he tell Russ to kill him then he kills him. If Horus did mess with the orders without anyone knowing both the wolves and the sons are ffectively absolved of the incident. If Russ did know of the change in orders then he is entirely guilty for not checking in. If Magnus knew then he is guilty for not surrendering to Russ and using that to get his legion to Terra to help the Emperor.

I think that what happened to Magnus was unavoidable regardless of whether the orders came from the big E or were tampered with by Horus, Tzeetch wanted magnus and being the architect of fate and all it was going to happen. Horus had no need to intervene either because Russ is quite a violent dude, that being said, why would the emperor NOT want Magnus dead? he broke the edict of nikea, ruined the GT and since it was ruined Magnus no longer served a purpose as far as the big E was concerned. Magnus may have been loyal but in a way he still deserved to die for breaking the Emperors ruling, the primarchs may see themselves as sons but for the most part i think the Emperor saw them as tools, im not condeming the Emperor for this though, he made them like a Man makes a gun, if you had a gun that no longer shot why would you leave it around?

He didn't deserve to die...
IMO none of the primacrhs did, the entire Heresy is tragic, full of half-truths and outright lies...
The entire heresy can be placed squarely on 2 individuals in the Word Bearers legion and it pains me that they survived.

Even without Horus's betrayal the council of nikea would have happened and Magnus would need sanctioning for it, the Emperor was quite harsh in his punishments towards the primarchs but a rogue primarch is much to dangerous to be left breathing. Mgnus showed his willingness to defy the EoM and therefore deserved what he got, he knew how the Emperor would respond and if he did it in an act of noble self sacrifice then he should deal with the consequences. My favourite Primarch is Russ but if they wrote the end times fluff now and Russ came back corrupted id say he deserves the exact same fate, the primarch were made to serve and if they fail in this they are broken tools and nothing more.

It sounds harsh and i was heartbroken when Magnus died and Ferrus Manus and though i hate the Smurfs with a passion ill probs be upset when papa smurf bites it but those are just emotions and opinions, from the Emperors perspective its the only viable course of action and i respect him for doing what is necesary regardless of the cost.

I personaly like the wolves very much. if there was one thing they did that i disagreed with however it was the burning of prospero. you have to admit that it was not exactly the space wolves fault. they were under orders from the emperor and out of his loyalty Russ was going to compleate the job. If you raely want to look at it in deapth it is actualy the emperor who was being pigheaded an stupid. Magnus tried to warn the emporor of horus' trechery. the Emperor instead of heeding his words condeemed magnus and his chapter for witchcraft even though magnus had good intentions and was clearly demonstrating his loyalty and trying to warn and protect the emperor. the emperor was so atacched to horus that he was blinded to the fact that what magnus had said was true. Hecould not and would not belaive that his beloved warmaster would betray him. If you look at the fluff of the wolves after the heresy the are actually a noble and very noble force. when the high lords of terra are out of line they openly apose it. the are enemies of the imperial inqisiton because of how often the Inqisiton condeem inecent souls as gon to chaos. to me at least they apaer to be one of the only true forces of good left still fighting on the side of the imperium.

Hear Hear Ranek, just of topic but wasnt Ragnar trained by Ulrik in the original fluff and even in the 5e codex? why does everyone mix the two up? And believe me i agree with you about the Wolves, I actually find SW hate threads just so i can defend em lol, I just finished a 6k match like an hour ago, sadly i got beat by BA lol But as always ragnar reaped a lovely tally of 17, anyhoo i digess, the E wasnt really being pig headed regardless of what Magnus said to him he had still broken the Emperors loyalty, Golden throne, and plans for the imperium, surely these crimes warrant a death sentence?

No. They don't.
Magnus wasn't just a single primacrh he was a great asset in both his legion and his powers. Killing him without giving him a chance for redemption would have been stupid. I believe the Emperor sent Russ to bring him in.

So why would Russ bombard an apparently undefened Tizca so heavily? If Magnus was to be apprehended why would Russ risk his life? Russ was loyal in the extreme and i cant see him doing anything he wasnt ordered to, and during the nikea council the big E did say hed kill anyone found to be in its violation.

And how much of an asset could Magnus be after destroying the GT and stopping taking part in the crusade in a sulk over the Emperors decision? He messed up alot of things that couldnt be rectified, why should he be beyond punishment?

Magnus caused more problems for the Emperor than he did solutions and needed to be put down lest he cause even more, I liked Magnus too but your letting opinion dilute logic IMO.

Horus changed the orders.
Magnus is one of the most powerful psykers ever. If reconciled with the emperor he could once again become a powerful leader especially if he was assigned to help protect, find and conserve knowledge.
This isn't logic. Logic isn't killing smeone because they present an easily solvable solution, logic would be approaching the situation with a thought for the person on the other side.

Magnus broke the Golden Throne Man, the Emperors best chance at freeing humanity from the threat of chaos was destroyed by an unruly son who thought he knew what was best. Hed been ordered to stop his use of witch craft but proceeded as if nothing had happened, the Imperium is much worse off because of this. Magnus needed punishong and IMO even killing for this crime and the petulence that lead to it.

And since Magnus was created to sit on the golden throne why keep him around after he destroyed it? He was useless, hed never been the best at crusading and he was fast becoming a liability and in the Emperors eyes even seen to be trying to satart a civil war (the big E thought Horus would never turn at this point) So he needed to be killed. How many strikes does he need against him before you think he deserves it?

1) Went against the Emperors ruling
2) Broke the Golden THrone
3) Became obselete after doing number 2
4) Tried to incriminate Horus which the Emperor would have seen as treason
5) He bargained with chaos to control the TS mutation
6) His sons killed custodes and SoS who are under the direct command of the Emperor
7) The gene seed was unstable and therefore risky to keep using
8) Even with all that psychic might he was still only a mediocre crusade
9) He was more interested in knowledge than the Emperors vision
10) He not only used psyker powers but sorcery too

Thats 10 things against him, why should he be able to get away with it? He was a sorceror and couldnt follow orders, not killing him would have been illogical and risky.

pretre wrote:Another point as to why the Big E knew what was going down, he sent Constantin Valdor, The Custodes and the Sisters of Silence with Russ. Horus couldn't have done that, he doesn't have command over Valdor and Russ wouldn't need them unless it was a full sanction. Valdor also would have known if this was a 'Hot' sanction or not before he left Terra.

Why would the Emperor send the a full battle-force of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to go retrieve Magnus unless he knew that Russ would need them?

He sent them to support Russ to show that Russ acted with the Emperors entire authority and if things did get nasty, what better to send against a bunch of wizards then blanks. It was a deterrent and a fall back plan is things went bluebirds up.

Russ was dispatched by the Emperor and the message from Horus was received en route to Prospero, even after the images were pulled from Hawsers mind. It doesn't matter how Horus did it but he did, and as Warmaster he acts with the authority of the Emperor. Russ wanted to kill Magnus, otherwise he might have been a bit more suspicious.

I bet Russ was kicking himself after this all ended.

the rout wrote:
1) Went against the Emperors ruling

As did the Space Wolves

the rout wrote:2) Broke the Golden THrone

Strike 1

the rout wrote:3) Became obselete after doing number 2

Not entirely true. The Emperor had to remain on the Golden Throne after this to ensure that the webway wasn't breached further. Magnus might have been intended to be the battery to power it but he at least could've been the plug in the hole. Maybe this is why the Emperor wanted Russ to bring him back rather than have him killed. To imprison him on the Golden Throne and at least make him useful.

the rout wrote:4) Tried to incriminate Horus which the Emperor would have seen as treason

If he did it by any other means it might have been a different story.

the rout wrote:5) He bargained with chaos to control the TS mutation

But was the Emperor aware of this or anyone else - true, it was a bad thing to do but what everyone else don't know doesn't hurt them

the rout wrote:6) His sons killed custodes and SoS who are under the direct command of the Emperor

True - but when the Wolves started killing stuff then an Astartes is going to retaliate

the rout wrote:7) The gene seed was unstable and therefore risky to keep using

Again true - but if it was so bad then why did the Emperor even allow the Thousand Sons to exist, after all, they were his creation?

the rout wrote:8) Even with all that psychic might he was still only a mediocre crusade

Compared to who and what is your source for this?

the rout wrote:9) He was more interested in knowledge than the Emperors vision

So? Fulgrim and Sanguinius were interested in the Arts. Ferrus and Vulkan in craftmanship. Lorgar a religious zealot that only got bought to heel after Guillimans moaning. Other Primarch regonised that if you destroy everything then there isn't going to be anything left.

the rout wrote:10) He not only used psyker powers but sorcery too

Strike 2

I agree with most of pilau's comments. Magnus certainly did a few grave errors, but he did not deserve death and could still have been very useful for the IoM.

According to me, his biggest wrongdoings were his deal with chaos to stop the curse of flesh and his continuous use of sorcery, which led to the destruction of the emperor's greatest project for humanity. The other points raised by the rout are quite minor for the situation at hand.
For instance, he certainly wasn't obsolete after the destruction of the golden throne. He was still the greatest psykers in the galaxy after the emperor one of the only primarchs that was powerful enough to stop Horus.

Your missing my by point, when i say obselete i mean no longer functioning as designed to, he may have been retasked sure but he could no longer do what he was made for.

And why is everyone so certain Horus intercepted the message? it never says this anywhere but it does say the Emperor is mighty pissed at Magnus and then he sends his executioners after him with a load of blanks which is a clear show of intention.

The big E wanted Magnus dead for his crimes and his short fallings, and im getting the crusade stuff just from general fluff. As far as i'm aware the top 3 were Horus, The Lion, Then Russ in compliances and Magnus was never given any great credit for his skills in war, if anything when it came to war he was almost as nerdy as Lorgar. His psyker gifts helped obviously but he was no great tactician.

Dont get me wrong i liked the Magnus character but i think everyone is letting that cloud their judgement, he did wrong, he ruined important stuff, he needed to be punished.

Killed might be a bit harsh its true but the Emperor sent the wolves, if he only wanted them apprehended seems a bit odd to send astartes killers as opposed to some of the more level headed legions.

It doesnt say it in these books - but Russ going after Mgnus IS mentioned in the earlier books.

In which one does it say this has anything to with Horus and when?