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AgeOfEgos wrote:

Simo429 wrote:This has got to be the strangest thread I have ever read. I can understand the hypothetical situations that are discussed but the happenings of thousand sons are being discussed as if they are real! Strange.

Well the Prospero event was pretty significant. While you may be over the events that transpired there, I know many that are not. Just the other day while I was getting a cup of coffe at work, one of my co-workers walked up behind me and gave a soft wet leopard growl. Naturally my first instinct was to reach for my Heqa staff and unleash the power of the Great Ocean on him....but then I remembered company policy forbidding warp usage so restrained myself.

HO ho ho though when he got off work that night...bet he didn't count on a 23 eyed, 7 limb spawn waiting in his back seat. Now I have his parking place.

Lol That's great mate! Love it!

biccat wrote:

Laodamia wrote:My point was that because you let your opinion on the SW influence your reasoning, your arguments are severely subjective and lack support from quotes or any official fluff.

By golly, you're right! My dislike of the Space Wolves is completely due to an irrational reading of the fluff and didn't involve connecting the dots between a traitor legion and a legion supporting the traitors as either a mindless stooge or a willing accomplace!

Time to burn my evil Thousand Sons army and invest in some missile launchers and razorspam.

I might even buy myself a fursuit so I can further show my opponents how awesome Space Wolves are!

(Yes, this really happened. Seriously. Well, the last one. Probably the part about ML and razorspam too.)

lol I never asked you to do all this. Keep playing TS, I think they have a great background and a cool paint scheme. And they don't have the nasty habit of putting spikes all over their armor like other CSM legions. They look a bit more civilized.
And I never said the SW were awesome either. I do agree that they look sometimes a bit slowed. And I don't fancy the barbarian theme either. But when some SW haterz start throwing weird arguments against them, I get interested in the debate.

biccat wrote:Renegades don't have to be chaos worshippers. There are plenty of renegade human forces, even Astartes.
Russ turned on a brother Primarch, probably the only one who could have stopped the Heresy, at the behest of the leader of the Traitor Legions.

Wrong. Russ turned on Prospero at the Emperor's behest. He did so in a manner dictated by the Warmaster, who at the time was seen as absolutely the highest authority besides the Emperor himself.

Because of his attack on Prospero, Magnus believed that the Emperor had turned on him.

True.

Russ employed psykers after the Council at Nikaea specifically prohibited such actions. Magnus prohibited the use of any sorcery after Nikaea, except the one situation where he had to warn the Emperor, and the warp was in such flux that normal astropaths couldn't send a message.

When did Magnus ever stop sorcery amongst his men?

Russ tolerates mutants in his Legion. Magnus didn't tolerate mutants in his Legion, and went to great lengths to keep his legion free of mutants.

The Wulfen aren't mutants. They are the result of geneseed manipulation. Magnus had much the same problem before he made a deal with Tzeentch. The difference being that Russ holds is faith in the Emperor.

Magnus didn't want his followers to worship false gods, Russ encouraged and tolerated the worship of the Gods of Fenris.

And yet he shows it poorly, Ahriman suspects how Magnus saved the legion from the curse of flesh. Others probably do as well. And for the last time, show me a single reference to the 'gods of fenris' as being worshipped by the SW. There isn't one. They are primitive names for known 'spirits', like the machine spirit, etc. Firewolf is the volcanos, Sunwolf is the Sun, Morkai is death, etc. They aren't actually gods. They're shorthand.

I don't dislike the SW because of their appearance, or because of their culture, or because I don't like the legion (tautology?). I dislike the Space Wolves because they were obviously a traitor legion who drove the Thousand Sons to Chaos. Despite their heresy and chaotic structure, they're allowed to continue to serve the IoM, without any penance to the Emperor.

Citation needed. How are they obviously traitor? Because they followed the Emperor's will to go to Prospero and his designate's will in how it should be accomplished?

Magnus' ego drove the TS to chaos. If he had listened to his father, he would have been at his right hand on earth running the Astronomican. But no, he thought he knew best and forced the Emperor's hand.

Finally, they're thugs, and I don't like thugs.

True. Their job is to be the Emperor's Executioner, or thug if you would rather. To do the jobs that the hoity toity legions can't stomach.

Even the SMurfs, despite their many (MANY) failings, fight with honor. The SW are sneaky underhanded gits.

They're pretty direct.

agree with everything you say petre apart from the gods thing, they worship them and act with them in mind, its the reason theyre known as pagans, spirits is the shorthand for gods not vice versa in this instance, appeasing the gods is an act of religion. They talk about the underverse and what not and even see space as an extension of the world sea, their pagan rituals are toleraterated as their faith keeps them loyal and harder to taint than the others.

And yeah they are direct AND underhanded, iknow it sounds silly but its just necesary deciept is still a direct action. A great and cunning man once said "all war is deception"


it was Russ by the way lol

Umm no. SW follow the Imperial Creed, not a pagan religion. They interpret the Imperial Creed so that the Emperor is the Allfather, etc, but it is still the Imperial creed.

SW Codex, P35 - Wolf Priests: spiritual guides in the manner of a Space Marine Chaplain, each a living conduit that maintains the Chapter's connection to the Imperial creed.

The SW call various natural forces 'gods' but in the same way that there is a Machine Spirit and Machine God. They don't worship them, they observe their presence as forces in the universe. The only one they worship is the Emperor.

Amusingly enough, the Fenrisians, pre-induction to SW, consider the SW gods and Asaheim (the Fang), the home of the gods. (P6 SW Codex) So I guess the argument is do the SW consider themselves gods, if we consider their Fenrisian beliefs the problem?

They don't worship the emperor as a god though, just as the mightiest warrior to ever live. So they don't follow the imperial creed at all, they have their own beliefs.

Actually none of the Space marines worship him as a god IIRC, just as their creator.

Umm. Try to read the quote. Let me put it in quotes, so it is clearer:

SW Codex, P35 - Wolf Priests: wrote:spiritual guides in the manner of a Space Marine Chaplain, each a living conduit that maintains the Chapter's connection to the Imperial creed.

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They do follow the Imperial Creed.

Ooooh good question (no sarcasm intended) i hadnt thought of that, i suppose they think of themselves more like avatars of the emperors will but isnt that the same as thinking your divine? Finally something insightful about the wolves after so much irrational hate.

The wolves do beleive in the other gods though, read the bit about servitors being punished for wasting the time of the gods of iron (SW codex pg 38) and on pg 56 in the description of the axe morkai it says "reforged in the likeness of the twin headed wolf GOD morkai.

So i have to beg to differ on their religion but thanks for the point of their view of themselves, very interesting indeed.

Right, but my point is that they are using Gods in the form of Spirit there. The same as they talk about Machine Spirits, etc.

The Gods of Iron on P38 are in reference to SW Iron Priests who live on that island and teach fenrisians. "for this is the guise the Iron Priests maintain when dealing with mortal men."


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And you missed the hyphen for Morkai, wolf-god. Quite different from Wolf God. P 10, Morkai is listed as the 'legendary two-headed wolf that guards the gates of death.'

I think you will find that P56 is refering to Morkai as a wolf-god or 'God amongst Wolves'.


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Each case in the codex of them refering to Gods is actually them referring to SW from the point of view of Fenrisians.

And what about the refference to morkai? they maintain many of of their multigod beliefs even after induction even down to their beliefs about hell. They are pagans as they praise elemental forces exactly like the Norse religions did, thor was a god of thunder for example, to them the emperor is a god because of his martial prowess but he is just the greatest god among all gods, no flaming intended but have your the SW novels recently?

the rout wrote:And what about the refference to morkai? they maintain many of of their multigod beliefs even after induction even down to their beliefs about hell. They are pagans as they praise elemental forces exactly like the Norse religions did, thor was a god of thunder for example, to them the emperor is a god because of his martial prowess but he is just the greatest god among all gods, no flaming intended but have your the SW novels recently?

Yep, I reread Ragnar's books (written pre Codex) and the HH books (written at same time/post Codex). Cite me a page where it conflicts?


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That was quick...

P3 of Space Wolf - About Ragnar: took a deep breath, intoned a prayer to the Emperor and waited.


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P14 - Ragnar talks about the sky warriors: 'He told of the time of choosing when Russ had picked the best ten thousand warriors from all the clans, and led them off, never to be seen again, to fight in the wars of the gods.'

It's not really a multigod beliefs it's more...
They explain the large natural events through multiple massive supernatural creatures e.g. The iron wolf who created the mountains of Asaheim

P50 - Ranek explains Russ and the Emperor: "And so on back to the dawn of time when Russ walked among men, and the All Father, the Emperor fought his great wars against the powers of darkness."

P64 - Ragnar talks to himself: "The Imperium was ruled by the Emperor, The All Father, the crippled god..."

P74 - Ragnar prepares for death: "commended his soul to Russ and to the Emperor."

P77 - Ragnar prays to the Emperor "He offered up a prayer to Russ and to the Emperor for the safety of his soul."

I don't see any pagan gods here.

But where does it say that these beliefs change after induction? not in the SW novel and not in codex, they are still a superstitious lot otherwise why form the axe that way? why all the wolf iconography thats representative of the wolf-gods of fenris? why the totems and the furs and the necklaces? it all screams ritual and religion, not of people with a flare for wolfy design.They are reffered to over and over again as pagans in the fluff. Opinion doesnt come into it, the fluff says i therefore it is true, only what it doesnt say can be speculated upon.

Umm. Did you not see the 6 quotes from 'the fluff' where it refers to them revering the Emperor as a god. I just searched all of Space Wolf and not once does Ragnar refer to any god but the Emperor, Leman Russ or the Chaos Gods after induction.




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P8 - Ragnar's Claw - Ragnar talks about the Inquisitor: 'came all the way from the ancient homeworld of Terra, sacred home of the beloved God-Emperor himself'


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P 34 - Ragnar's Claw - Ragnar talks derisively of a pagan temple: 'The thing seemed truly ancient, rooted in a time and place
beyond memory, when men worshipped other, more primitive gods. It was a heathen monument,'


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P10 - Wolfblade - Ragnar talks about Magnus: 'a being only marginally less powerful than the God-Emperor himself.'


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Oooh, found a contrary quote:
P51 - Sons of Fenris - Berek - "Berek gave quick, silent prayers to the Emperor, Leman Russ and the old gods of Fenris."

Interesting that this is the only reference I've found so far. Also funny, since all other references make the 'Old Gods' out to be the Space Wolves. Berek is praying to himself?


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P90 - Sons of Fenris - 'The warriors of Fenris viewed the Fang with superstitious awe as the home of gods. In some ways, they were right; compared to ordinary men, the Space Wolves might as well be gods.'


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Now show me one quote that disproves that...


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the rout wrote:But where does it say that these beliefs change after induction? not in the SW novel and not in codex, they are still a superstitious lot otherwise why form the axe that way? why all the wolf iconography thats representative of the wolf-gods of fenris? why the totems and the furs and the necklaces? it all screams ritual and religion, not of people with a flare for wolfy design.They are reffered to over and over again as pagans in the fluff. Opinion doesnt come into it, the fluff says i therefore it is true, only what it doesnt say can be speculated upon.

Oh and why the iconography? You could ask that of any of the chapters. It is tradition. 10k years is a long time. Tradition is what keeps organizations together. It is their heritage and their future. Ritual and tradition do not indicate gods, they indicate history.

The swearing in of a president is ritual and tradition, is it belief in a god? No, it allows us to connect history and the present.

Thats not the only quotes dude but unfortunately i dont have the book handy but can you explain all the odd rituals they practice? and the constant use of the word priest, or why the ecclesiarch refers to them as pagans? or the totems? sure they dismiss some of their earlier beliefs as primitive but they hold to their original beliefs in general hence why theyre viewed as barbaric. Reclaiming the gene seed is known as Rites of Morkai, can you explain why? im reading the WP page now and it even mentions their connection with the cycle of life and death, does that sound imperial creed to you?

P 109, Prospero Burns: "Heaven and hell are primitive concepts, aren’t they? Is it just the reassurance of old names?’
Fith didn’t reply for a moment. Then he said, ‘There’s still an Uppland, as far as I’m concerned. Just like there’s a Verse and an Underverse. And as for Hel, I know there’s a Hel. I’ve seen it several times.’

Yep, they still believe in Hel, in the concrete sense. As in 'War is Hell'.


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the rout wrote:Thats not the only quotes dude but unfortunately i dont have the book handy but can you explain all the odd rituals they practice? and the constant use of the word priest, or why the ecclesiarch refers to them as pagans? or the totems? sure they dismiss some of their earlier beliefs as primitive but they hold to their original beliefs in general hence why theyre viewed as barbaric. Reclaiming the gene seed is known as Rites of Morkai, can you explain why? im reading the WP page now and it even mentions their connection with the cycle of life and death, does that sound imperial creed to you?

Re-read the books. Seriously. They're imperial creed through and through with their own tinge. The same way that Blood Angels are with their rites of blood and dark angels are with their mysteries and knighthood.

There are more versions of the Imperial Creed than you could count. The Ecclesiarchy calls them pagans because of the form their worship takes, not the object of their worship. How is the cycle of life and death not part of the Imperial Creed?

Lexicanum:
"The Imperial Cult is the cult based on the worship of the Emperor as Master, Defender and Father of Mankind, developing following his internment in the Golden Throne."

"The Imperial Cult is the Imperium's state religion, and in many ways the religion is the state itself; it binds humanity together in the service of the Emperor and the Imperium."

"The precepts of the Imperial Cult, called the Imperial Creed, include the belief that all of humanity must be brought into the Imperium, the abhorrence of aliens, the realization that psykers and mutation among humanity is a dire threat which must be controlled."

"interpretation of particular Imperial Cult dogmas varies through the Imperium"
How

All SM chapter have their own version of the Imperial creed. This can range from unadulterated fury and zeal (Black Templars) to pagan-esque ceremonies (Silver Skulls, Space Wolves, Blood Angels)

I get what your saying guys but im inclined to disagree so well just have to agree to disagree me thinks, i think were a long way off point now, regardless of their view they are not stupid whichthe OP would suggest, and by the way its nice to discuss the SW without a contant stream of prejudice haters. Can anyone here explain why there so highly hated? im relatively new to dakka and i just dont get it at all...

the rout wrote:I get what your saying guys but im inclined to disagree so well just have to agree to disagree me thinks, i think were a long way off point now, regardless of their view they are not stupid whichthe OP would suggest, and by the way its nice to discuss the SW without a contant stream of prejudice haters. Can anyone here explain why there so highly hated? im relatively new to dakka and i just dont get it at all...

The heresy book Thousand Sons kinda presents them in a very bad light.
The new codex is one of the top 3 and has a fair amount of cheese.
The new codex apparently has every wargear piece with wolf as a prefix which is since they had most of them in the last codex and no one cared.
Canis Wolfborn.
Log Fangs.
Razorspam.
TWC spam.
Rune priest spam.
And simply because some people need something to hate... in about 6 months no one will care and the Space wolves will be a mid-level codex (I hope)

I play a very different SW list, I Put ragnar and grimnar and arjac in a LR with 5 claw and shield WG (2 qith melta bombs to mix up wound allocation) and fly it across the board asap so when i charge i can get +d3 attacks with PE and FC to boost it somewhat, i dont use RPs as their not killy enough and i dont use TWC as their expensive and the models available are too crap or too ahrd work to convert.

I dont even spam ML i prefer a mix of plas and las in my LFs and maybe a couple of meltas, i then use a pod for GHs, is this classed as cheese? i despise power players i think everyone should create a list based on what they like and not on sheer beardiness, though my hero squad is pretty nifty lol but for the price it should be

Let me interject just to say it smells an awful lot like fanboy in here.

Stick to canon and quit making subjective, over-the-top statements about your favorite chapter. This is a thought-provoking thread, not one to simply spit meaningless opinions at one-another.

Canon supports that fact that the Space Wolves have been some-what deviant (I say "some-what" loosely. They disregarded the council of Nikea by continuing to employ Rune Priests; the same type of offense for which Magnus was to be brought in front of the Emperor and at least chastened for), and the canon also supports that they are stubborn and single-minded to a fault. On top of that they actively encourage mutation.

I will say out-right that I do not like the Space Wolves. So for those of you who do, look at the canon facts against your beloved Chapter and simply let the person on the other side of the "argument" play devil's advocate.

Use facts. Only facts. Don't slump to bolstering facts with grandiose opinions inflated by your puppy love (pun definitely intended).

A lot of chapters encourage mutation.
It's nothing special for astartes... it would be for normal humans but not for astartes.

LOL so i assume you can think of anyone without strikes against them? Everyone does, now your mixing opinion with fluff but what should we expect from someone called cypher?

Wrong is point of view as is whats cool, if it smells like fanboy then leave us to it and find a thread more suited to your bitchy tendencies.

And everyone disobeyed Nikaea. As for stubborn... As stubborn as the Imp Fists? Or Dark Angels?

They are what they are: loyal space marine with all the faults of most chapters.

pretre wrote:And everyone disobeyed Nikaea. As for stubborn... As stubborn as the Imp Fists? Or Dark Angels?

They are what they are: loyal space marine with all the faults of most chapters.

Precisely. So what's all the fuss?

Guys...you are debating the philosophical aspects, written by science fiction authors...about imaginary space men...on an online forum. Don't let it affect you in real world ways.

the rout wrote:LOL so i assume you can think of anyone without strikes against them? Everyone does, now your mixing opinion with fluff but what should we expect from someone called cypher?

Wrong is point of view as is whats cool, if it smells like fanboy then leave us to it and find a thread more suited to your bitchy tendencies.

Excuse me? "Bitchy tendencies"? Now I'm offended.

*Edit:

Did I in some way insult you by encouraging facts that aren't bolstered by fanboy-ism? I find it odd you're saying I'm mixing opinion with fluff when that is exactly what my post is against.

So, what is your point, Cypher?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Guys...you are debating the philosophical aspects, written by science fiction authors...about imaginary space men...on an online forum. Don't let it affect you in real world ways.

Also: +1. Keep the above words in mind at all times.

*Edit:

pretre wrote:So, what is your point, Cypher?

I apologize if I got off a bit from my main point and it got lost in my original post.

My point is what Age said, in many more words.

Every chapter has their quirks. Let the fluff say what it says whether it helps or hurts the public's opinion of your Chapter. Then when someone points out your Chapter's (why do I feel the need to capitalize that word?) "flaws", there is no need to get up-in-arms about it.